New rule for WSO sellers

Banned 13 years ago

You might want to make this a Sticky Thread temporarily Paul.

Just a suggestion, otherwise this will likely slide down the page pretty quickly.

Best,

Mark Andrews

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WillR

13 years ago

Woohoo. Great rule and well overdue.

Thanks to the powers at be.

To all those affiliates out there, it's simple. Bookmark the main affiliate marketplace pages on the most popular networks like Warrior Plus and JVZoo. As soon as you see an offer you would like to promote search for that product/vendor in the relevant marketplace and away you go.

There are also free sites like WarriorJV.com (started by a fellow Warrior) that announce a lot of the bigger upcoming launches BEFORE they happen so you can keep ahead of things that way.

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Mark,

Fear not. We have a Plan.

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rajivkumar900

13 years ago

Thanks for sharing Paul.
Rajiv

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

First big question on it, although I'm not sure why it wasn't asked here directly:

How are we supposed to get affiliates if we can't advertise for them in our WSOs?

Go for it, folks. Help the lady out. I may jump in later, but I haven't run a paid WSO since mid-2010. Might be best to let the more current experience start the discussion.

Paul

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Chris,

Hopefully, the "discount for a review" will be banned soon too.

Unlikely, as that's a transparent process. As long as the other potential customers know what's going on, we don't see any problems with that.

If we're missing something, please let us know. It wouldn't be the first time. This new rule is proof of that.

Paul

PS: OTOs don't happen on the forum, and don't affect members who choose to ignore them,so they're none of our business. Unless, of course, they're required in order to accomplish what was promised for the front-end product. That is very rare.
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WillR

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

First big question on it, although I'm not sure why it wasn't asked here directly:

How are we supposed to get affiliates if we can't advertise for them in our WSOs?

Go for it, folks. Help the lady out. I may jump in later, but I haven't run a paid WSO since mid-2010. Might be best to let the more current experience start the discussion.

Paul

Well my obvious answer is, it shouldn't make a huge difference to your recruitment of GOOD affiliates.

Affiliates are out to make an income just like the rest of us. For that reason it is in their best interest to track down and promote the best quality products out there. By advertising your affiliate program in your thread all you were simply doing was making it easier for the affiliate to click through and request to promote your offer.

I think most super affiliates (which are the type you want to attract) will still know when they see a Warrior plus button or a JvZoo button, etc that they can go and search for your offer at the appropriate network, and promote it.

So what can YOU do in order to attract affiliates? I think the same thing you have always been able to do. Create great products that people want to buy and affiliates will then naturally want to promote those products. Get a few good affiliates on board and word of your product will spread all by itself and lead to even more affiliates promoting.

Also don't forget to include details of your affiliate program in the back-end of your product. Happy customers can turn into great affiliates.

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rajivkumar900

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

First big question on it, although I'm not sure why it wasn't asked here directly:

How are we supposed to get affiliates if we can't advertise for them in our WSOs?

Go for it, folks. Help the lady out. I may jump in later, but I haven't run a paid WSO since mid-2010. Might be best to let the more current experience start the discussion.

Paul

This question is not asked because its somehow already addressed on reference thread given at first place. i have just gone through complete thread. so there is no need to ask above question here....

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post6302419

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Rajiv,

Part of it has been asked and answered, but the focus of that thread was different. I think it warrants a separate discussion.

Paul

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BloggingPro

13 years ago

This is why I like this forum so much. When things become an issue, or rather, someone suggests something that simply makes sense... boom its changed!

I whole-heartily agree with this change and feel it makes the WSO section all the better.

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taskemann

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

For those who wonder, that means no mention at all.

Ok. So I can't even write, for example, "You can find our affiliate program at Warrior Plus" (not linked of course) in the WSO thread?

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Jimmy,

Originally Posted by taskemann

Ok. So I can't even write, for example, "You can find our affiliate program at Warrior Plus" (not linked of course) in the WSO thread?

Well, you could. You'd find your WSO closed pretty quickly if it was reported, but you could do that...

Paul
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- taskemann 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Well, you could. You'd find your WSO closed pretty quickly if it was reported, but you could do that...
  
  Paul
  
  Ah OK. I think I'll follow the rules. :p
  
  I was just wondering. Therefore I asked.
  
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  Paul Myers 13 years ago
  
  Jimmy,
  
  I was just wondering. Therefore I asked.
  
  It's all good. Questions help.
  
  You'd be surprised at how many people try to play forum-lawyer for real, though. They forget the rules they agreed to when they signed up.
  
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J Bold 12 years ago

Originally Posted by taskemann

Ok. So I can't even write, for example, "You can find our affiliate program at Warrior Plus" (not linked of course) in the WSO thread?

And just to add, if someone hasn't said it already, the big affiliates you'd want promoting your offer are going to know it's on Warrior Plus since it will be pretty obvious by looking at your buy button what affiliate program you're using. It's obvious, and no need to advertise it in your WSO thread.

I think this is a great rule. Your products will be listed on the affiliate program sites anyway, and those active affiliates will be requesting your offer if they want to promote by scrolling through the offers on those sites or simply by seeing your buy button.

It's really a non-issue.
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Anton Nadilo

13 years ago

I personally think it is an over-reaction in my opinion and the decision has taken the issue from one extreme to the other.

I think the big a** affiliate banner was a bit of overkill (and I have not used it) as was the blatant in your face promotion for affiliates in the thread.

However, putting a basic question in your FAQ's such as How Do I Become An Affiliate "CLICK HERE" (hyperlinked to your JV Page)....come on!!

Happy to play by the rules....but some common sense.

You can imagine WSO vendors will now get posts in their threads about it which they will then have to answer via PM...one problem fixed...another one created.

Just sayin....

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Anton

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Anton,

You can imagine WSO vendors will now get posts in their threads about it which they will then have to answer via PM...one problem fixed...another one created.

Read the other thread. A potentially small and infrequent problem, vs a potentially large and income-stopping issue.

More work for the mods. Possibly fewer closed-down Paypal accounts for the vendors. We'll take those odds.

Paul
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Bill Hugall 12 years ago

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- Rod Cortez 12 years ago
  
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  Having been apprised of the potentially serious consequences the smart ones will. The others... well... that's just God's way of thinning the herd!
  
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J Bold

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Anton Nadilo

I personally think it is an over-reaction in my opinion and the decision has taken the issue from one extreme to the other.

I think the big a** affiliate banner was a bit of overkill (and I have not used it) as was the blatant in your face promotion for affiliates in the thread.

However, putting a basic question in your FAQ's such as How Do I Become An Affiliate "CLICK HERE" (hyperlinked to your JV Page)....come on!!

Happy to play by the rules....but some common sense.

You can imagine WSO vendors will now get posts in their threads about it which they will then have to answer via PM...one problem fixed...another one created.

Just sayin....

Cheers

Anton

Anton, nice to see you here.

Here's my opinion.

Do I really care about having an affiliate who can't obviously tell that I'm using JVZoo or Warrior Plus just by looking at my buy button? I mean, talk about spoon feeding. I"d like an affiliate that actually takes an effort. Any affiliate who wants to promote your product can take 5 seconds to look at your sales page and/or click on the buy link to figure out what affiliate program you're using. I don't see it as an issue, at all.

And the whole reason has to do with reports that paypal takes a dim view of recruiting affiliates within the sales page and thread.

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Tony Grant

13 years ago

Sometimes I do wonder what people waste their time over, creating a rule to stop something that frankly I have never really noticed as much of a problem.

Most Warrior Vendors will put the affiliate request links inside their download pages which is fine and still unaffected by these rules I guess.

I am not sure why people would want to put the affiliate links in the sales page anyway as by the time the product goes live, if they haven't got that sorted already then they have got their launch methodology a bit out of focus.

As to the question about how to get affiliates up front and without promotion on the sales page, that also is simple, get off your a$$ and make friends, network, build relations and do it the right way.

Yet again I see rules being made for no big reason but turned into a big deal for the sake of it. Totally pointless...just like waiting until your sales page is live to look for affiliates...

Much Ado About Nothing!

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Matt Morgan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

PS: If you really like this new rule, do not thank me. Scroll down to WillR's post and thank him. He's the one who suggested it. I just relayed it to Allen, and he approved it.

Will's idea, folks. Credit where it's due.

Originally Posted by WillR

Woohoo. Great rule and well overdue.

Thanks to the powers at be.

To all those affiliates out there, it's simple. Bookmark the main affiliate marketplace pages on the most popular networks like Warrior Plus and JVZoo. As soon as you see an offer you would like to promote search for that product/vendor in the relevant marketplace and away you go.

There are also free sites like WarriorJV.com (started by a fellow Warrior) that announce a lot of the bigger upcoming launches BEFORE they happen so you can keep ahead of things that way.

Nice one, to the powers of this forum.

Paul, can you sort out that there can be a road named after me

Matt Morgan Boulavard

Well done both of you, in finding this rule, and making it happen.

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Tony,

Get over yourself, dude. We really don't LIKE to make rules, and we don't do it unless there's a real benefit to the members. The fact that you don't 'get' that benefit is of little concern to us.

To me, none.

Read the other thread, please. If you still don't get it, I can find someone who can recommend appropriate remedial business classes in the UK, I suspect.

The suggestion about networking is, however, well-placed. Thanks for that. Excellent advice.

Paul

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Matt Morgan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Tony,

Get over yourself, dude. We really don't LIKE to make rules, and we don't do it unless there's a real benefit to the members. The fact that you don't 'get' that benefit is of little concern to us.

To me, none.

Read the other thread, please. If you still don't get it, I can find someone who can recommend appropriate remedial business classes in the UK, I suspect.

The suggestion about networking is, however, well-placed. Thanks for that. Excellent advice.

Paul

I think many WSO listers would be unaware of the fact that paypal don't like listing or promoting your affiliate programs on the main sales page.

Especially if they didn't see that thread listed in Pauls first post.

so this rule can let them know, keep them aware, and then when this rule is found by them on the WSO rules, and they apply it by not listing their affiliate progrem, then the rule can save many warriors paypal accounts from being frozen.

Even you save a few hundred warriors from having their Paypal accounts frozen by somthing they didn't know (which they now should withthe new rule), then isn't it worth it?

of course it is, so this rule is worth it.

(Looking on the whole of the warriors as a whole)

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Matt,

If it helps keep ONE person from getting their income shut off over this sort of mishap, it's worth it.

I've seen far too many people who've depended too much on this forum alone and gotten bit - hard - because of it. The same thing happens with various payment processors. Folks get so complacent that they don't think it could ever happen to them.

Until it does.

This is a sane rule. Any person involved with regulation will tell you that putting the income/affiliate potential in as part of the sales pitch for a product is a serious issue. This wasn't even a "maybe" question.

I just hope that, if there are any other issues like this we've been missing, someone from the group jumps up and slaps us with corrections like Will did with this one.

Even if they're not as civil as he was...

Paul

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Mark Bradley

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Matt,

If it helps keep ONE person from getting their income shut off over this sort of mishap, it's worth it.

I've seen far too many people who've depended too much on this forum alone and gotten bit - hard - because of it. The same thing happens with various payment processors. Folks get so complacent that they don't think it could ever happen to them.

Until it does.

This is a sane rule. Any person involved with regulation will tell you that putting the income/affiliate potential in as part of the sales pitch for a product is a serious issue. This wasn't even a "maybe" question.

I just hope that, if there are any other issues like this we've been missing, someone from the group jumps up and slaps us with corrections like Will did with this one.

Even if they're not as civil as he was...

Paul

It's definitely a step in the right direction and if it stops even one
person from having their account suspended or shut down,that
can only be a good thing.

But,as I understand it,PayPal's real 'beef' is with some of the WSO
sellers' sales copy and the claims and promises made therein.

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Giani

13 years ago

I think WSO Creator should not mention about Affiliate program. It doesn't help him in any way.

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Tony Grant

13 years ago

Yep, sums it up nicely, don't give a stuff about perspectives, don't care about balanced discussions, seems slightly unreasonable myself when in fact I never stated that it was wrong, I never stated that people should do that, I just stated that I had never seen it as a problem before and it seems a bit over the top too me.

I don't need to get over myself, I am perfectly on track, in the right mindset and making money with or without this rule so to me, it is trivial as is your insults and condescension. I feel that it is you that 'needs to get over yourself' haha

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Tony,

don't care about balanced discussions

Then why are you here?

What works for you, in your business, may be in conflict with what we see as working for the benefit of our members. Like, oh, for example, reducing the odds of them getting their Paypal accounts shut down.

I have no horse in the race, junior. I don't sell anything through the WSO section, and I am not affected by this new rule. At all. I didn't suggest the rule or make it a reality.

If you want condescension, though, I can probably manage a bit of it. I've been an active member here for something like 30 times as long as you, and dealt with at least 500 people with the same mindset about the forum and its rules. Probably a lot more than that.

Your Cluemeter on this topic is on empty. Perhaps you might consider sticking to the many things about which you know something more than nothing?

Paul
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tpw

13 years ago

People have gotten shut down over this issue, so this is a step in the right direction.

If we try to put ourselves in PayPal's shoes, it makes perfect sense too.

Consider the WSO teaching people how to create WSO's in order to cash in on them, and there is an affiliate link in the bottom of that. Folks are selling the opportunity and the affiliate opportunity, rather than selling the education, which walks very close to the "forbidden line" from the FTC.

This is a good rule that will in the end save a lot of people from getting their PayPal accounts shut down.

Tony, I like you, but this was far more common that you are acknowledging in your posts. It was a problem, and good people were getting put out of business, because of PayPal's concern about this practice.

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RonnyRaygun

13 years ago

As I understand things, WSOs are meant to be products that could be bought elsewhere, but are offered at the Warrior Forum for some sort of warrior-only discount.

It seems that the majority of products are made to only sell as a WSO. Perhaps it's time to put a stop to this?

People who submit WSOs that are fundamentally crap would be pushed out of the WSO space.

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Ronny,

It seems that the majority of products are made to only sell as a WSO.

Some percentage, certainly. Our challenge is knowing which ones, specifically. And then ruling out the ones that don't carry value outside the forum.

The rules are pretty specific, and as long as "only available to visitors to the forum" or "costs more to everyone else" fits, we're not easily able to nuke them.

The market, both inside and outside the forum, has changed enough that the old ways of handling such things no longer apply. Or can apply.

Paul
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JasonParker

13 years ago

Thank you Will and thank you Paul for putting this rule in place.

Anything the forum authorities can do to minimize risk with our accounts is appreciated!

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tpw 12 years ago

Originally Posted by JasonParker

Thank you Will and thank you Paul for putting this rule in place.

Anything the forum authorities can do to minimize risk with our accounts is appreciated!

Paul was just the messenger.

Will and Allen were the two who brought this to fruition.
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Kay King

12 years ago

OTOs don't happen on the forum, and don't affect members who choose to ignore them,so they're none of our business

The problem now is the "sell this product to make money with this make-money product" as part of a sales page for a WSO.

Some sellers will add a new OTO promoting/incentivizing the affiliate aspect as a work around to the new rule.

If the "buy now" link in a WSO leads to an OTO about selling as an affiliate - is the risk to sellers and to the WF removed or relocated? I don't know.

kay

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Rus Sells

12 years ago

Kay,

That is a good question. I don't personally use Mike's platform or any of the competing platforms. Seeing that I host all my products on their own domains I would imagine that the the allegde risk is transferred to my should I decide to offer the OTO and make mention of an affiliate program for the product "before" the sales is made I think the risk is on me.

I think that if the seller is doing this on a 3rd party platform that delivers the vendors product then I think that is something there could be an issue with.

Originally Posted by Kay King

The problem now is the "sell this product to make money with this make-money product" as part of a sales page for a WSO.

Some sellers will add a new OTO promoting/incentivizing the affiliate aspect as a work around to the new rule.

If the "buy now" link in a WSO leads to an OTO about selling as an affiliate - is the risk to sellers and to the WF removed or relocated? I don't know.

kay

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Rus Sells

12 years ago

I'm very glad this rule has been put in place. Will thanks for bringing it up and Paul for taking it to Allen for approval.

Now if we can just get rid of the WSO's on how to do a WSO we'd be taking another step in the right direction.

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Colin Palfrey

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Rus Sells

I'm very glad this rule has been put in place. Will thanks for bringing it up and Paul for taking it to Allen for approval.

Now if we can just get rid of the WSO's on how to do a WSO we'd be taking another step in the right direction.

This is an important point, as they are some of the most circular products around. At least I haven't yet seen a WSO about doing a WSO teaching others to do a WSO.

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Rus Sells

12 years ago

Doing a WSO about how to make money doing a WSO isn't any different then then the guy sitting in front of a 250k exotic car selling his how to make money online product, or how to make money with tiny classifieds, and then all it comes down to is doing the same type of ad.

Its not original by any sense and in the real world its illegal to say the least.

Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey

This is an important point, as they are some of the most circular products around. At least I haven't yet seen a WSO about doing a WSO teaching others to do a WSO.

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DianaHeuser

12 years ago

Paul,

I realise that this applies to WSO's posted after the date you mentioned, but surely it would make sense to remove any mention to affiliate programs in WSO's that are currently running?

If the risk is having your Paypal account suspended because of it, I would rather remove it off my current WSOs.

Di

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Steven Wagenheim

12 years ago

I don't have a dog in this race (have never run an affiliate program through a
WSO) so this is my totally unbiased opinion on the issue.

Promoting your affiliate program within the WSO thread itself has lead to
problems, all of which have been documented and explained, including serious
problems such as a PayPal account being closed.

To me, this is a REAL problem. The last thing I would want is to have my PayPal
account closed down.

Therefore, for that one reason alone, I am 100% behind this rule. To me, it is
a no brainer.

Will it be a 100% absolutely fool proof way to prevent problems? Of course not.
There will be people who will find ways around it and still get their accounts
shut down or worse.

Why?

Because when you run an open affiliate program (something I will NEVER do)
you run the risk of getting jackasses as affiliates who will literally make your
life a living hell through a variety of means that I won't get into here because
I don't want to give anybody any ideas.

This new rule GREATLY reduces the risks. It doesn't eliminate them, but it
reduces them.

I have been burned terribly by affiliates so I am speaking from experience.

Will, thank you for suggesting such a great rule and thank you to Allen for
instituting it.

And with that, I will go back into hibernation over at the OT Forum.

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JasonParker

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I don't have a dog in this race (have never run an affiliate program through a
WSO) so this is my totally unbiased opinion on the issue.

Promoting your affiliate program within the WSO thread itself has lead to
problems, all of which have been documented and explained, including serious
problems such as a PayPal account being closed.

I don't remember many people getting shut down before the affiliate programs came about.

Don't get me wrong, I've done alot of affiliate marketing with these programs, but I agree with you.

And also... The WSO culture has changed for the worse since the affiliate programs came about in my opinion.

Although the affiliate programs have grown the WSO forum, it's also created launch mania.

Marketers are making a living just launching WSOs... That's cool and all but I've always looked at the WSO forum as a launch pad for your business, not your total business.

Maybe this has contributed to bringing the value of products down? I don't know...

I mean... How can you show me how to make money with your secret when the only way you make any real money is by launching WSOs?

If all you know how to do is make money launching WSOs then you have no business launching 1 to 4 products per month that teach people SEO.... Because when we actually use your product, we waste time and money.

I understand that the income of many people on this forum depend solely on the affiliate programs, so I'm not saying I'm for pulling the plug on them...

I'm just saying, Wags is right + there are some more downsides.

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Steven Wagenheim

12 years ago

Originally Posted by JasonParker

I don't remember many people getting shut down before the affiliate programs came about.

Don't get me wrong, I've done alot of affiliate marketing with these programs, but I agree with you.

And also... The WSO culture has changed for the worse since the affiliate programs came about in my opinion.

Although the affiliate programs have grown the WSO forum, it's also created launch mania.

Marketers are making a living just launching WSOs... That's cool and all but I've always looked at the WSO forum as a launch pad for your business, not your total business.

Maybe this has contributed to bringing the value of products down? I don't know...

I mean... How can you show me how to make money with your secret when the only way you make any real money is by launching WSOs?

If all you know how to do is make money launching WSOs then you have no business launching 1 to 4 products per month that teach people SEO.... Because when we actually use your product, we waste time and money.

I understand that the income of many people on this forum depend solely on the affiliate programs, so I'm not saying I'm for pulling the plug on them...

I'm just saying, Wags is right + there are some more downsides.

There are so many issues that I could bring up here but if I did, it would turn
into one of my novels and I don't have the strength for them anymore.

But...in a nut shell, here are just a few of the problems that we're seeing.
Some are new, some have been going on since the beginning of time.

1. The forum popularity, hard as this is to believe, has exploded over what it
was just in the last couple of years. I don't recognize most of the people I
see around here.

2. The WSO forum itself has turned into a mega opportunity for just about
anybody. You don't really need anything more than an over the top offer to
attract the sheep. Sorry, but that's what you find when you market in an
open forum like this. A lot of people looking for the "push button" solution.
Look at the headlines of many WSOs and tell me I'm wrong.

3. Therefore, the need to expand your business model just isn't there. Once
you've found this place, that can BE your model. And the worst part is,
nobody even has to know. As far as they're concerned you can have an
amazing web presence. But if you looked up some of the names (those who
use their real names) how many would you find with any web presence? I've
lost track of how many thousands of pages I have online through article
syndication or whatever. Point is, if this forum shut down, I'd still go on,
though I am seriously looking to retire. I have just had enough of the BS
that comes with this business. The bad PR associated with marketers in
general isn't the least of it.

4. Combine all that stuff together and old business models have become
antiquated if you're just looking to make a quick buck. And the truth is,
even a reputable business (if it's in the make money online niche) could come
here and literally launch itself IF it had something "viable and with substance"
to promote.

For example, let's take something like Aweber, which really doesn't need to
promote here at all. But imagine Tom Kulzer was just starting out and really
DID have an amazing service. He could come here, post a WSO and literally
launch a multi million dollar business once word got out how great his service
was.

Can you still do things the old fashioned way like when I started? Sure, but
why bother? This is so much easier.

The prevalence of this comes down to...

5. What I call the "Lazy Man's Way To Riches" syndrome.

Give you a non money making example. I play Magic the Gathering. Right now,
in standard format, one of the best decks to play is Delver. So what a lot of
players do is they just play Delver instead of coming up with their own deck
or playing a different top tier deck. Why? Because it's the easy way out. No
need to overthink it. Just play Delver and have a good chance of winning.

Same thing here. Run a WSO and have a good chance of making money
without having to go through the hassles of SEO, social networking, article
writing, blogging and so on.

No muss, no fuss.

But what happens when this happens is that you have less substance.

In Magic, you have all these decks playing Delver and thus have a stale
meta game.

In making money, you have a lot of crap offers that are just there to make
a quick buck with no real substance that's useful OUTSIDE of the WSO forum.

In short, you have a real mess.

And I don't see it getting better any time soon. Not while this "easy"
opportunity is staring us right in the face.

Oh well, I've said enough. I'm going to bow out gracefully before I get a lot
of rocks thrown at me from some feather ruffled WSO sellers.

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JasonParker

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Same thing here. Run a WSO and have a good chance of making money
without having to go through the hassles of SEO, social networking, article
writing, blogging and so on.

No muss, no fuss.

But what happens when this happens is that you have less substance.

In Magic, you have all these decks playing Delver and thus have a stale
meta game.

In making money, you have a lot of crap offers that are just there to make
a quick buck with no real substance that's useful OUTSIDE of the WSO forum.

In short, you have a real mess.

And I don't see it getting better any time soon. Not while this "easy"
opportunity is staring us right in the face.

Oh well, I've said enough. I'm going to bow out gracefully before I get a lot
of rocks thrown at me from some feather ruffled WSO sellers.

At the risk of sounding like the leader of a whine fest...

That's kind of along the lines of what I'm saying.

How can your product teach me ANYTHING related to what you're saying it'll teach me if all you do is make all your money launching WSOs?

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Marcus Rockey

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Same thing here. Run a WSO and have a good chance of making money
without having to go through the hassles of SEO, social networking, article
writing, blogging and so on.

No muss, no fuss.

But what happens when this happens is that you have less substance.

In Magic, you have all these decks playing Delver and thus have a stale
meta game.

In making money, you have a lot of crap offers that are just there to make
a quick buck with no real substance that's useful OUTSIDE of the WSO forum.

In short, you have a real mess.

And I don't see it getting better any time soon. Not while this "easy"
opportunity is staring us right in the face.

Oh well, I've said enough. I'm going to bow out gracefully before I get a lot
of rocks thrown at me from some feather ruffled WSO sellers.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. Absolutely spot on.

But I must add.......

While there may be supposedly easy ways to make money through 'no real substance' WSO's there is an even bigger gap for those of us determined to provide quality WSO's that have real value inside and outside of this forum. It is in fact an opportunity.

I for one intend to provide WSO's with substance as my name, reputation and business model is something incredibly important to me, as are those who purchase from me.

We can draw a line under our names and say that we will not engage in 'the quick buck' way. I for one am voting for that.

Thanks for this great thread guys.

Marcus

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Paul Myers

12 years ago

Kay,

Some sellers will add a new OTO promoting/incentivizing the affiliate aspect as a work around to the new rule.

If they do that in a way that gets them in trouble, it's their problem. Our "authority," such as it is, ends at the borders of the forum.

Diana,

I realise that this applies to WSO's posted after the date you mentioned, but surely it would make sense to remove any mention to affiliate programs in WSO's that are currently running?

At the moment, I don't see this as something that needs to be retroactive. People can use their own judgment on that.

Jason,

Marketers are making a living just launching WSOs... That's cool and all but I've always looked at the WSO forum as a launch pad for your business, not your total business.

If they're not leveraging that customer base and those products and creative assets in a way that could run without the forum, they don't have a business. They've got ad space in a single channel.

That can be a serious income for some folks, as long as it lasts. But things can change quickly. It is never wise to allow your business to depend too heavily on ANY single point of failure.

Paul

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Tina Golden

12 years ago

Originally Posted by JasonParker

I've also been thinking about how PLR and MRR relates to the new biz opp laws.

To my understanding, the new regs would not apply. When you sell PLR or MRR products, you are essentially a wholesaler. You aren't giving your buyer an entire business, just a product that they can then sell. The biz opp regs seem to be targeting the complete business & customer acquisition market. Of course, this is a layman's interpretation.

Originally Posted by JasonParker

I don't remember many people getting shut down before the affiliate programs came about. Ding, ding, ding! Give the man his prize. You're absolutely right.

And also... The WSO culture has changed for the worse since the affiliate programs came about in my opinion. In my opinion, as well.

Marketers are making a living just launching WSOs... That's cool and all but I've always looked at the WSO forum as a launch pad for your business, not your total business. That's how serious business people look at. Those who use it as their complete business will eventually put themselves out of business.

Maybe this has contributed to bringing the value of products down? I don't know... I firmly believe this. With the affiliate programs came the flood of people who are demanding ridiculous commissions (i.e. 100%). There is a good chunk of marketers (mainly the ones mentioned in the previous paragraph) who believe they MUST have those affiliates so they give in to the demand. Many of these people know they're not making a dime off the front end so they cut corners and put out some incredibly crappy products. Look at the whole 'make a product in an hour' craze on the WSO forum. Many of those are simply encouraging the influx of garbage products.

I understand that the income of many people on this forum depend solely on the affiliate programs, so I'm not saying I'm for pulling the plug on them... If they are depending solely on the affiliate programs, then I'm with TSnyder in an earlier post. Time to thin the herd.

For the record, when I talk about garbage products above, most of what I mean are not scams or useless. I'm referring to the type of information that, while decent, is the stuff that most of us are freely sharing here on the forum or in our email newsletters.

It's like the WSOs that are completely blind copy and the creator won't answer any questions because it will give out too much information. If your product will be rendered useless by telling people what it's about, then you shouldn't be selling it, in my opinion.

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Tsnyder

12 years ago

Originally Posted by DianaHeuser

Paul,

I realise that this applies to WSO's posted after the date you mentioned, but surely it would make sense to remove any mention to affiliate programs in WSO's that are currently running?

If the risk is having your Paypal account suspended because of it, I would rather remove it off my current WSOs.

Di

Having been apprised of the potentially serious consequences
the smart ones will. The others... well... that's just God's way
of thinning the herd!

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JasonParker

12 years ago

These conversations in this thread and the other make me wonder how PayPal would look at PLR and MRR. Reselling products and affiliate programs are both somewhat similar.

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Tina Golden

12 years ago

Originally Posted by JasonParker

These conversations in this thread and the other make me wonder how PayPal would look at PLR and MRR. Reselling products and affiliate programs are both somewhat similar.

As a PLR creator/seller, I've talked to PayPal several times about this. It is not the same thing, depending on how you are doing it. In my case, 99% of what I sell is non-transferable. I am not giving a product that the buyer can turn around and sell as is. PayPal has absolutely no problem with this business model.

When it may become a problem is if the focus is on giving the buyer a business selling the same package as is being sold to them. I'm sure you've seen the packages where the emphasis is on taking that entire package and turning around and reselling it?

Any time you see a sales page that puts the emphasis on the product being a turnkey business, just turn around and resell it, you are risking your account. That's not to say you can't sell this type of package, but your sales copy should emphasize how useful the actual products are and how much the buyer can learn/do with the products.

With the new policies on business opportunities from the FTC, selling a turnkey package must walk a fine line now anyway.

A lot of what may or may not earn suspicion from PayPal is found in your copy. Sell the actual value of the product or package to the buyer, not the money to be made by reselling said product or package.

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JasonParker

12 years ago

Thanks for the heads up, Tina.

I've been thinking about the positioning of it.

I'm pretty sure every sales page I've written to sell PLR up until this point wouldn't look good to PayPal based on what you just told me.

I usually attack both sides... The value of the product and how they can sell resell it.

I'm thinking the best way to do it after reading your post may be to sell the benefits of the product and then having a small section about how they get private label rights or mrr with it...

I've also been thinking about how PLR and MRR relates to the new biz opp laws.

I haven't heard any attorneys address it in regards to PLR and MRR.

With what I've gathered... And this is definitely not legal advice, it's just how I look at it in this point in time... if I'm selling PLR or MRR to internet marketers who are currently information publishers or if it's not positioned as a turnkey solution, then it doesn't seem like a biz opp. But what do I know...

Someone new to the business wouldn't be able to take a PLR package and now be in business. They'd have to know how to technically set it up, etc. If I were to sell a PLR package to someone who is new to the business and I included set up with it, then I can see that as turning into a biz opp. Again though, I don't know... I haven't heard attorneys address it yet.

Originally Posted by Tina Golden

As a PLR creator/seller, I've talked to PayPal several times about this. It is not the same thing, depending on how you are doing it. In my case, 99% of what I sell is non-transferable. I am not giving a product that the buyer can turn around and sell as is. PayPal has absolutely no problem with this business model.

When it may become a problem is if the focus is on giving the buyer a business selling the same package as is being sold to them. I'm sure you've seen the packages where the emphasis is on taking that entire package and turning around and reselling it?

Any time you see a sales page that puts the emphasis on the product being a turnkey business, just turn around and resell it, you are risking your account. That's not to say you can't sell this type of package, but your sales copy should emphasize how useful the actual products are and how much the buyer can learn/do with the products.

With the new policies on business opportunities from the FTC, selling a turnkey package must walk a fine line now anyway.

A lot of what may or may not earn suspicion from PayPal is found in your copy. Sell the actual value of the product or package to the buyer, not the money to be made by reselling said product or package.

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Michael Meaney

12 years ago

Smart move.

Now if only income claims were banned too....

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Johnny12345

12 years ago

Will, Allen... and Paul,

Thank you for fixing the problem.

Things were starting to spin a bit out of control... the affiliate program notices were getting bigger and BIGGER all the time!

(It's no wonder that PayPal doesn't like the practice.)

John

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Colin Theriot

12 years ago

As a copywriter, I would HIGHLY recommend AGAINST putting your affiliate program details in the sales letter anyway. The salesletter is a mechanism designed to disguise and alleviate the fact that you are being sold to. It's meant to take focus away from the money-making part on the vendor side and shift it to the value receiving part on the buyer side. Slapping a big old affiliate notice at the bottom is NOT going to do you any favors conversion-wise. I'm surprised that this is the kind of thing that needed a rule, because I'd bet my favorite hat that if you tested it, you'd sell more leaving it out.

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Steven Wagenheim

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Colin Theriot

As a copywriter, I would HIGHLY recommend AGAINST putting your affiliate program details in the sales letter anyway. The salesletter is a mechanism designed to disguise and alleviate the fact that you are being sold to. It's meant to take focus away from the money-making part on the vendor side and shift it to the value receiving part on the buyer side. Slapping a big old affiliate notice at the bottom is NOT going to do you any favors conversion-wise. I'm surprised that this is the kind of thing that needed a rule, because I'd bet my favorite hat that if you tested it, you'd sell more leaving it out.

Ah, the voice of reason and logic. Yeah, that too Colin.

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RyanLima

12 years ago

Thats too bad - promoting an affiliate program through a WSO was a killer way to get top notch affiliates quickly

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Colin Theriot 12 years ago

Originally Posted by RyanLima

Thats too bad - promoting an affiliate program through a WSO was a killer way to get top notch affiliates quickly

No, that's probably the stupidest ways to get top notch affiliates. You presume "top notch" affiliates are browsing the warrior forum to see what is for sale? Do you think with the resources available to top notch affiliates, that this method would be anywhere near the most efficient way to find the best offers to promote? Hint: It isn't. Most affiliates I know NEVER even LOOK at the forum itself. They promote things by people they know, and people proven to have a record in making good offers. That has more to do with intelligent networking outside the marketplace and very little to do with slapping your affiliate banner into your sales page.

Edit: I shouldn't say "stupidest" because people might think I am talking about the people who use it being stupid. What I should have said is "least effective" because that's what it is.
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zapseo

12 years ago

Let me expand and underscore what Colin has said.

I, too, am a copywriter -- and my domain has primarily been writing copy for WSOs.

My clients have NEVER, to my knowledge, advertised their affiliate program within the WSO thread. EVER. And they've had some of the top selling WSOs. Recruitment of affiliates has NEVER been a problem.

Recently, I have informally consulted in a few places with folks who have gotten their PayPal accounts shutdown or have gotten calls from PayPal Risk Management. REMOVING any and all references to the affiliate program is just about the FIRST advice I've given them.

(TONING down income claims for buyers, if not out right eliminating them, has been the 2nd. That just makes sense in the current regulatory climate. )

Personally, I think this should apply to just about ANY salespage -- I wouldn't even have an affiliate link at the bottom of the page (yes, as an affiliate, that does make it more of a pain finding the affiliate program. I still wouldn't do it.)

However, there's NOTHING that says you can't promote the affiliate program on your product access page and/or email -- whether product access is a download page or a membership or whatever.

But I would not go over the top with that, either. Provide VALUE to your buyers FIRST -- the value in the PRODUCT. MLM companies get in trouble by putting the opportunity first; the same should apply to WSOs, imnsho.

For those of you who are familiar with Frank Kern's story about how he got ALL his money taken away from him by the FTC, it was just this way: promising people they can buy the product and turn around and re-sell it and earn money from it.

Incidentally, my 3rd piece of advice is make sure your product/webpage/website has all the appropriate "legal" documents. (I know some folks, like Caleb Spilchen, use a set of links within their WSO. I am NOT a lawyer, I cannot give you legal advice on that -- but I can give you a couple of ways of looking at it.

As a copywriter, I tend to dislike ANY links off a salespage that are anything other than a Payment button. OTOH -- over time, I think the additional creditibility and professionalism will make this nearly a requirement.

Anyone who doesn't know how to recruit affiliates for a WSO ... and I hate to say this ... but they might benefit from picking up one of those products on how to create a WSO. (The first one I bought like that actually was written by Willie Crawford -- before there were affiliate programs for WSO. And the copy said nothing about WSOs

As for blind copy -- I have truly seen this taken to amazingly extreme degrees. So extreme that the sales page has gone on talking about the benefits of the product without ever mentioning what the product was about for longer than I would have believed possible.. I mean, some of it has been pretty impressive copy.

In GENERAL, I hate blind copy. OTOH, there are some places where it truly is appropriate.

I am EXTREMELY pleased to see this rule go into effect, and very happy that WillR recommended it.

There are a LOT of very legit sellers, professional sellers, within the WSO marketplace. I continue to be amazed, as many years as I've been on this forum, the number of outstanding sellers,as to the number who have very happy customers who I keep being introduced to. (And trust me, I more often have to be won over if I've never heard of them before.)

I've been on the WF since before you to pay to list a WSO, and before there was any "payment gateway services". It's a pretty awesome and incredible marketplace and I continue to be amazed at the value available here.

So, thanks, Mr. Says, for creating the Warrior Forum and the WSO forum. And the mods for all the thankless, volunteer work that you put in to make it the great place it is.

And thanks again, Will!

I have a hard time remembering life before the Warrior Forum.

Live JoyFully!

Judy

P.S. Steve Wagenheim and others -- the only "open" affiliate program I know of is ClickBank -- and they have changed that so that you can have a closed affiliate program. JVZoo, W+ both require you to approve affiliates. I believe that's true for the lesser known "button providers" as well. The problem has been in the WAY that the vendors have gone about approving affiliates.

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Paul Myers

12 years ago

Judy,

As for blind copy -- I have truly seen this taken to amazingly extreme degrees. So extreme that the sales page has gone on talking about the benefits of the product without ever mentioning what the product was about for longer than I would have believed possible.. I mean, some of it has been pretty impressive copy.

Thanks for the reminder. We're not allowing any more blind ads. If one sneaks through, please report it.

There are instructions in the WSO rules that say you should give people enough information to make a proper decision. Blind ads don't do that, and they tend to have much higher than usual rates of problems.

The problem has been in the WAY that the vendors have gone about approving affiliates.

I don't want to get into specifics, but carelessly approving World+Dog as affiliates is rolling the dice with your account here. Some affiliates have started doing stuff that can get a person banned even if they didn't know it was happening.

On the flip side, we've had a few morons threaten sellers for refusing to approve them as affiliates. If you're a seller and that happens to you, please report it. We won't tolerate it, and I doubt the various affiliate platforms will either.

Paul

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zapseo

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Judy,Thanks for the reminder. We're not allowing any more blind ads. If one sneaks through, please report it.

There are instructions in the WSO rules that say you should give people enough information to make a proper decision. Blind ads don't do that, and they tend to have much higher than usual rates of problems.I don't want to get into specificsa, but carelessly approving World+Dog as affiliates is rolling the dice with your account here. Some affiliates have started doing stuff that can get a person banned even if they didn't know it was happening.

On the flip side, we've had a few morons threaten sellers for refusing to approve them as affiliates. If you're a seller and that happens to you, please report it. We won't tolerate it, and I doubt the various affiliate platforms will either.

Paul

Hey Paul,

"should give people enough information to make a proper decision"

The devil's in the details on that one, so to speak.

A recent "blind copy" WSO I was thinking of I that I found pretty objectionable was closed the last I checked. I'll check to make sure it still is.

The one sales page I wrote that was "blind", when one of the JV partners hired me to write a subsequent page commented on not wanting to write blind copy -- not actually knowing me well enough that I was loathe to do so previously. I don't think any of us were thrilled with having to use that approach. I'd have to re-visit it to see it (it having been closed for 5 mos now) how "blind" it was.

Transparency is nearly always the best choice, and to not be transparent frequently suggests that it's blind because the value isn't really there.

So, sounds like a good call to me. I'll be fascinated to see how this plays out!

Some affiliates have started doing stuff that can get a person banned even if they didn't know it was happening.

I have seen some well-known and generally respected WSO sellers (not my clients, thankfully) promote both their own WSOs and OTHER WSOs as an affiliate with tactics that are questionable.

It's been a puzzlement to me, because their products (and the products they were promoting) were good ones and didn't need to do that. Why someone wants to sully a great product and/or offer and add sleaze to their rep not only puzzles me, but saddens me.

There's always room in the marketplace for good products.

That the choice of affiliates you approve can get you, the seller, banned is something that needs some "consciousness raising."

Live JoyFully!

Judy

P.S. And thank you, specifically, for taking WillR's suggestion to Allen. Messengers often get killed, so that's sufficient reason to praise them as well.

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tpw 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

On the flip side, we've had a few morons threaten sellers for refusing to approve them as affiliates.

Paul

LOL

I would introduce them to my favorite kind of bird, if someone tried to play that with me.
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- Joseph Robinson Banned 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by tpw
  
  LOL
  
  I would introduce them to my favorite kind of bird, if someone tried to play that with me.
  
  I don't see what it will accomplish...
  
  Great rule change, hopefully people realize that it is in essence for their protection.
  
  Thanks
  
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Bruce NewMedia

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

On the flip side, we've had a few morons threaten sellers for refusing to approve them as affiliates. If you're a seller and that happens to you, please report it. We won't tolerate it, and I doubt the various affiliate platforms will either...
Paul

I've had this happen just recently...also, the newest wrinkle I'm finding is they buy your product, immediately request aff status, then due to obvious reasons I deny them, and they immediately refund.

Then comments like, why should I support you, if you won't approve me? Very mature.

Anyway, I think the new rule is a wise one...also agree with Judy and Colin, the old way mis-directs the visitors attention to information that will only hurt conversions.
_____
Bruce

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Tom B Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Judy,Thanks for the reminder. We're not allowing any more blind ads. If one sneaks through, please report it.

Paul

What about ads written by blind people?
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timpears

12 years ago

These notices in the saleds page always looked like they were inappropriate. Always felt like I was getting gypped as if I was signed up as a promoter, I would be getting it at a lower price. Just totally tacky.

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Steve Wells

12 years ago

Great Idea........ Woo Hoo....

Now, if WSO Pro, and JV Zoo, and others REQUIRED all affiliates to purchase a product first BEFORE promoting it, things would get even more inline.

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Dennis Gaskill 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

How are we supposed to get affiliates if we can't advertise for them in our WSOs?

A couple people mentioned this in passing while making other points, but placing an invitation to join your affiliate program on the delivery page is a good partial solution. Satisfied customers can be turned into some of your most passionate and persuasive advocates.

Now, if you plan ahead and make it easy for them to promote your product, you'll be that much further ahead. Give them ads to use, email swipes, free PDF reports branded with their affiliate link, etc.

The key is to plan ahead instead of just blasting out products.

Recruiting is also important. Need I say more about that?

One last thing, as I was browsing the main forum before opening this thread, I couldn't help but notice how many people are burning bridges rather than building them. That's the way to NOT get ahead in this game. Networking can increase your income dramatically, so my last comment is to remind you of something you already know ... don't let your ego run your keyboard.
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Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.
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Gene Pimentel

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Wells

Great Idea........ Woo Hoo....

Now, if WSO Pro, and JV Zoo, and others REQUIRED all affiliates to purchase a product first BEFORE promoting it, things would get even more inline.

Requiring a purchase in order to participate in a money-making venture is illegal. Think Ponzi, lottery laws.

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zapseo

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Wells

Great Idea........ Woo Hoo....

Now, if WSO Pro, and JV Zoo, and others REQUIRED all affiliates to purchase a product first BEFORE promoting it, things would get even more inline.

Don't think that's going to happen, for a number of reasons.

Even affiliates who get access to the product before promoting have been known to put out sketchy promotions.

It wouldn't solve the problem you're trying to solve, unfortunately.

If I thought it would, I'd be 100% behind it.

Live JoyFully!

Judy

EDITED to add:
P.S. -- I just noticed Gene's comment as well. I didn't know that it was illegal, Gene.
Now I'm curious how that fits with MLM. (Unfortunately, some products I REALLY like are only sold via MLM. So I'm reflecting on venturing, reluctantly and VERY cautiously, into some of those waters again.)

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Gene Pimentel

12 years ago

Originally Posted by zapseo

P.S. -- I just noticed Gene's comment as well. I didn't know that it was illegal, Gene.
Now I'm curious how that fits with MLM. (Unfortunately, some products I REALLY like are only sold via MLM. So I'm reflecting on venturing, reluctantly and VERY cautiously, into some of those waters again.)

If the MLM company requires that you purchase the product being marketed in order to be eligible for commissions, it's illegal. Most MLM want you to think you have to purchase the product, but if they are legit, they must allow you to sell the product without purchasing the product yourself (they may charge you for a distributor kit or other items).

I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice :-)

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zapseo

12 years ago

OFFTOPIC:

Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel

If the MLM company requires that you purchase the product being marketed in order to be eligible for commissions, it's illegal. Most MLM want you to think you have to purchase the product, but if they are legit, they must allow you to sell the product without purchasing the product yourself (they may charge you for a distributor kit or other items).

I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice :-)

Actually, I was buying the product ... and there was a weird fee I had to pay under any condition (including to buy the product ?!?!). They gave me a choice to 'join the oppty' for the same price, so figured I'd get more for my money, LOL. So I didn't have to buy the product to get commissions; that's not how I got involved -- it was from just trying to buy the product in the first place.

Interesting observation re: IM upsell/OTOs & MLMs:
Maybe it's a culture difference, but I felt more heavily marketed to than even the WORST multi-upsell ClickBank offer I've ever experienced. (It was VERY difficult to buy the dang product -- exhausting, in fact. I think it took me about an hour, WITH handholding.) (It's MUCH MUCH better after one gets all signed up.)

But the products come highly recommended to me ... so, I will be trying them out and seeing what happens.

Thanks for the response, Gene.

BACK TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED TOPIC.

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Viramara

12 years ago

I want to ask a question here regarding this rule :

How about the "promote this WSO and get 75% commission" banner thing below the thread? It's not allowed too, again?

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zapseo

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Viramara

I want to ask a question here regarding this rule :

How about the "promote this WSO and get 75% commission" banner thing below the thread? It's not allowed too, again?

You're kidding, right?

You really need to ask this question?

(Judy borrows Paul's "cluemeter" to see if anything registers here.)

If people spent as much time in honest promotions instead of trying to game the system, they would do much better over time. Their reputations would improve, people would be more eager to do business with them, etc.

Years ago I helped out Mike Filsaime when he launched Butterfly Marketing (the first time.) He wrote me a pm that went something like "you've got my back."

Make the people feel like you've got their back, rather than looking like you'll knife them in the back.

For MANY affiliates, seeing recruitment for affiliates in a thread where you are trying to send sales feels a lot like being knifed in the back, not HAVING the back of people who are vital to growing your business (affiliates.)

Hopefully this will move the cluemeter dial to the right for some folks.

Live JoyFully!

Judy

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Rus Sells

12 years ago

The reason I see people having problems with affiliates is that they don't treat what they are doing like a business.

Would a business hire a sales associate without an interview?

Would a business let sales associates work wherever they like without dictating the appropriate venues where their product can be sold and where it can't?

Would a business "NOT" dictate the terms of how their product must be represented to potential buyers by the sales associate?

Those of you who aren't screening your affiliates/partners are just opening yourself up to potential problems.

The kinds of problems that some payment processors don't like.

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shadowarrior

12 years ago

Great rule!
If i would like to become an affiliate and promote a product .... i would just check out the affiliate or jv page anyways or request for approval @ warrior +

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JKflipflop

12 years ago

I guess whatever is being done, is for the good. It is best to deal with a HUGE problem like income stoppage by enforcing stricter rules - and I think Paul has done just that. It ultimately is going to benefit the WF community as a whole - the short term problems which do arise can be dealt with eventually. But this action or rather rule, was well called for. Thanks A Lot to Paul and Allen.

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Karen Blundell 12 years ago

I think it's a good rule and I'm very glad to see changes implemented that could potentially prevent future problems.

here's to our mutual success!
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Des Lau

12 years ago

As a sales page designer, I've already had to lay down the law on 2 WSOs (always hated putting it down the bottom anyway, like a big bright bandaid). So glad this rule is in place for the obvious reasons and more important reasons.

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