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Ghostwriting... another Possible Niche for Writers?

by shawnlebrun
14 replies
I've hired my fair share of ghostwriters on Elance, Freelancer, and other sites.

Typically, I'd expect to pay $500 to $1,000 for a 100 page book or so.

So, imagine my surprise when I opened an email this morning from
Ed Gandia, in which he talks about Ghostwriting and a webinar he's doing with
Derek Lewis.

I hadn't heard of Derek, so I clicked over to his site to learn he makes anywhere
from $10,000 to $25,000 to ghostwrite a book!

I know this is a copywriting forum... but I also believe in keeping your eyes, ears,
and heart open for other parts of writing in which maybe you feel would be a better
fit.

So, for newer writers here, who read this and are struggling to get clients, or gain some
traction writing sales copy... maybe this ghostwriting thing could be another thing to look into.

Personally, I feel everyone owes it to himself/herself to find the kind of work they feel best suited for... and that makes them happiest.

So, perhaps if writing sales copy isn't it, maybe ghost writing nonfiction books could
be more your cup of tea...

Professional Ghostwriting Rates and Fees
#ghostwriting #niche #writers
  • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
    Thanks Shawn, good stuff.

    I've ghosted several "Specialty Reports", between 30-90 pages, and have rec'd between 3k and 5k per job.

    A book, although much higher fees, takes a lot of time, research and energy that I as an
    ADD guy...

    can't do. But, staying focused for a couple of days, that is an easier job.

    gjabiz


    Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

    I've hired my fair share of ghostwriters on Elance, Freelancer, and other sites.

    Typically, I'd expect to pay $500 to $1,000 for a 100 page book or so.

    So, imagine my surprise when I opened an email this morning from
    Ed Gandia, in which he talks about Ghostwriting and a webinar he's doing with
    Derek Lewis.

    I hadn't heard of Derek, so I clicked over to his site to learn he makes anywhere
    from $10,000 to $25,000 to ghostwrite a book!

    I know this is a copywriting forum... but I also believe in keeping your eyes, ears,
    and heart open for other parts of writing in which maybe you feel would be a better
    fit.

    So, for newer writers here, who read this and are struggling to get clients, or gain some
    traction writing sales copy... maybe this ghostwriting thing could be another thing to look into.

    Personally, I feel everyone owes it to himself/herself to find the kind of work they feel best suited for... and that makes them happiest.

    So, perhaps if writing sales copy isn't it, maybe ghost writing nonfiction books could
    be more your cup of tea...

    Professional Ghostwriting Rates and Fees
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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
    Problem for most wraiths is same problem for most other writers — ya gotta know your stuff an' be fired up for it, or it's gonna be torture.

    No $25k gonna get me researchin' the global effects of mooshee baby food or what led Tyson to bite off that other guy's ear.
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    Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

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  • Profile picture of the author Andy The Copywriter
    I do a bit of Ghostwriting. My pay is somewhere between what you paid your freelancers and what Ed Gandia charged, but closer to the former.

    Ghostwriting has its pros and cons. I find the pay per dollar doesn't quite equal direct response copy, but there's much less pressure on you.
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    I write mainly as a ghostwriter for numerous clients. I have learned a lot about a wide variety of topics. I agree with Shawn that ghostwriting can be extremely lucrative.

    However, I don't recommend you put all your eggs in the one basket unless you know you have enough work to keep you busy for a long time.

    I also do editing and proofreading, a skill that has helped me get more work, some as a writer and some as an editor/proofreader.
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    Cheers, Laurence.
    Writer/Editor/Proofreader.

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  • Profile picture of the author Steve The Copywriter
    So... you can look at your copywriting portfolio…

    And have an inspirational moment (or two).

    Because there is stuff you really enjoyed slaving over, I mean researching, creating and crafting into an epic masterpiece and although you may not be the worlds leading authority you do have a dazzling dash of expertise on the subject.

    It's a knocking bet that many in that "niche" are saying "F*** me, this writing palaver is hellishly difficult if ONLY I knew someone who could help me."

    After a decent breakfast and a few coffees, well... it would be a shame not to reach out and at least offer your esteemed assistance.

    Promise one thing - don't call yourself the "Ghostbuster."


    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      I hadn't heard of Derek, so I clicked over to his site to learn he makes anywhere
      from $10,000 to $25,000 to ghostwrite a book!
      Thirty years ago, professional ghostwriters were getting $10,000 to $20,000 per book, so I suspect those numbers are rather low, and they are talking about the low, vanity end of the ghostwriting market.

      However, having written and co-written several books for major publishers (HarperCollins, Penguin, Henry Holt), I can say that copywriting skills will have very little carryover into ghostwriting books. It's a very different kind of writing. Although both ghostwritten books and sales copy include both words and paragraphs, there is little else that is the same.

      In addition, the kind of concentrated cooperation with a client that's needed with someone who is very busy and likely has a big ego is not for everyone.

      Don't get stars in your eyes just because of the money numbers involved. Per hour, $10,000 to $20,000 per book is very low if you are doing it only for the money. It takes about three months of solid, fulltime work to write a good book at standard length. As a copywriter, you could make much, much more than that in the same amount of time.

      If it takes you 600 hours to complete a book, which is a reasonable estimate in my experience, then at $10,000 per book you are making a little more than $16 an hour. At $20,000 you are making only $33 an hour.

      Marcia Yudkin
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      Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
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      • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
        Thanks Marcia,

        Book ghosts I know are most often into a year of time, and 6 figures IF they have a major publisher. The vanity end, well, get wealthy and vain clients and make as much as you can.

        A 40 page report, at approx. 30 mins per page, will take about 20 hours, and at 3k that is an hourly rate of 150 per hour, which might be OK if there is back ends involved, or 5 k if not, for a 250 per hour rate.

        We sold 109 copies of a headlight cleaning manual in a few hours (@97 each) for a 10k day, my "fee" was half that. We all could use more of those kind of assignments, eh?


        For some of us, writing is fun...and not work. When it becomes work, I go into my "Maynard G. Krebs" (an old TV character) impression.

        Work? WERK???
        gjabiz


        Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

        Thirty years ago, professional ghostwriters were getting $10,000 to $20,000 per book, so I suspect those numbers are rather low, and they are talking about the low, vanity end of the ghostwriting market.

        However, having written and co-written several books for major publishers (HarperCollins, Penguin, Henry Holt), I can say that copywriting skills will have very little carryover into ghostwriting books. It's a very different kind of writing. Although both ghostwritten books and sales copy include both words and paragraphs, there is little else that is the same.

        In addition, the kind of concentrated cooperation with a client that's needed with someone who is very busy and likely has a big ego is not for everyone.

        Don't get stars in your eyes just because of the money numbers involved. Per hour, $10,000 to $20,000 per book is very low if you are doing it only for the money. It takes about three months of solid, fulltime work to write a good book at standard length. As a copywriter, you could make much, much more than that in the same amount of time.

        If it takes you 600 hours to complete a book, which is a reasonable estimate in my experience, then at $10,000 per book you are making a little more than $16 an hour. At $20,000 you are making only $33 an hour.

        Marcia Yudkin
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  • Profile picture of the author jessegilbert
    Banned
    ghostwriting is also generally not a portfolio builder. the term ghostwriting means you can't really add it to your resume in the regular way like other work experience. that said if you have the skill and need the money it mght be tolerable. me I'd rather write my own book for 600hrs and get the lion's share of revenues if possible.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    I use to offer ghost writing as part of a package and the last book I did was
    in 2007. It was a $19K package so it worked out fine for me. But as Marcia
    said, in terms of time and effort, copywriting a lot more lucrative.

    Another model, is for the copywriter to get books ghost written and then write
    the sales copy to market them for their own business. I think that Bob Bly
    does a lot of this.

    -Ray Edwards
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    The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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    • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      I use to offer ghost writing as part of a package and the last book I did was
      in 2007. It was a $19K package so it worked out fine for me. But as Marcia
      said, in terms of time and effort, copywriting a lot more lucrative.

      Another model, is for the copywriter to get books ghost written and then write
      the sales copy to market them for their own business. I think that Bob Bly
      does a lot of this.

      -Ray Edwards

      Ray, this has been the best method I've personally used.

      The first few years online back in 2001 to 2005 or so, I wrote all of my
      books, all of my copy, etc...

      Then I realized I was the cog in the wheel... I was the bottleneck and
      that my strengths lied in writing the copy and not so much writing the books.

      I WANTED to have total control and access over the first few books,
      because I had uncovered a pretty unique method of losing fat and
      gaining muscle... to the point I was able to step onto a bodybuilding stage
      after 9 weeks.

      But once most of my original ideas from my noggin were written down,
      I started feeling stuck and bogged down when creating more products/
      back end.

      Sure, I started offering fitness and weight loss coaching, teleseminars,, etc...
      but in terms of product sales, it was FAR more lucrative and worth my time
      to hire ghostwriters for other areas of my business... like stretching, supplements,
      recipes, etc...

      And then, I'd write the copy. And that turned out to be the best use of my time,
      strengths, and resources... was to have the ebooks ghostwritten while I focused
      on the copy.

      And from what I've seen online, a LOT of marketers do this, and have done it
      this way.

      So good point! Those who know how to sell, and write to sell, will almost always
      make more and be worth more than those who content/ghostwrite... for the simple
      matter that often times it's the sales copy that can push someone off the fence... between buying and not.

      But I'm seeing yet another shift these days... it's actually a blend of the two...
      those who can write amazing content that also acts as a pre-seller.

      Me? This is where I feel we are heading online... it will all come down to
      building solid relationships with your tribe, by offering up amazing valuable
      content and straight out sales letters will be less and less important.

      The "sale" will have been made along the way, during the relationship building process,
      to the point you offer so much useful content, you don't even need a long sales letter.

      Just amazing content, focused on offering value and building relationships... and email...
      and that will usually do better than sending cold traffic to a cold offer.

      But that's just my 2 cents.
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  • Profile picture of the author quadagon
    I've ghosted one book and it was the worst time I ever had.

    My heart sank after I read the format guide and realised that this was writing by numbers. There was really little to no creativity involved.

    In later years I found it an invaluable insight into the publishing world but at the time I hated every word I inked.
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    I've got 99 problems but a niche ain't one
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    You make some great points Shawn.

    I would like to throw another combination into the ring. There are a LOT of people who can write well, but many don't have great editing skills. I know this from personal experience. For example, I have several regular clients who write books, articles and other material but their grasp of the finer points such as spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc isn't as good, or in some cases, they simply don't have the time to polish it. There are others who record it and then outsourcing the transcription aspect of their job.

    Instead of them stressing about every little thing, they do their work and then get me to edit/proofread it to get that final polish that everyone deserves. Let's face it, most people make innocent mistakes.

    Outsourcing this aspect saves them valuable time and they can do more of their own work.

    Then there's another aspect. They may have some great material but want to refresh it to make it more appealing. They come to me for that because they know I can do a great job and, again, they can focus on what they're good at.

    I hope that all makes sense. I'm not a copywriter but I wanted to share other view points when it comes to writing, etc.
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    Cheers, Laurence.
    Writer/Editor/Proofreader.

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    • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
      Originally Posted by laurencewins View Post

      You make some great points Shawn.

      I would like to throw another combination into the ring. There are a LOT of people who can write well, but many don't have great editing skills. I know this from personal experience. For example, I have several regular clients who write books, articles and other material but their grasp of the finer points such as spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc isn't as good, or in some cases, they simply don't have the time to polish it. There are others who record it and then outsourcing the transcription aspect of their job.

      Instead of them stressing about every little thing, they do their work and then get me to edit/proofread it to get that final polish that everyone deserves. Let's face it, most people make innocent mistakes.

      Outsourcing this aspect saves them valuable time and they can do more of their own work.

      Then there's another aspect. They may have some great material but want to refresh it to make it more appealing. They come to me for that because they know I can do a great job and, again, they can focus on what they're good at.

      I hope that all makes sense. I'm not a copywriter but I wanted to share other view points when it comes to writing, etc.
      Great point Lawrence... I can speak from experience, when I'm in the "flow" of writing copy... I typically don't stop and fix each spelling mistake right then and there.

      Breaks up the flow and the momentum, so I'll just write it all down, as it comes, misspellings and all.

      I have a GREAT proof reader I then send it too, but she's often so busy... it can take her a few days to get it back, which can slow things down getting things to clients.

      I know a lot of copywriters use proof readers, simply because it's more cost-effective to focus on your strength of writing the copy... and then having someone else fix the spelling.

      And thanks to you... I think I just found another proof reader I can use, and refer my clients to :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    Hi Shawn,

    I think we talked about that ages ago (me helping with proofreading/editing).
    I am certainly happy to help if you, or anybody you know, needs my expertise.

    Looks like we helped each other with this thread.
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    Cheers, Laurence.
    Writer/Editor/Proofreader.

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