Advice needed...

Asking for paragraphs from an "accomplished writer" is now trolling?

"The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling." Thomas Sowell.

[ 2 ] Thanks
2 replies

Signature

Andrew Gould

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415845].message }}

splitTest

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Andrew Gould

Asking for paragraphs from an "accomplished writer" is now trolling?

"The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling." Thomas Sowell.

Great quote, Andrew. Gonna use it on my girlfriend sometime (and then run for cover

)...

[ 1 ] Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415881].message }}

Tim R

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Andrew Gould

Asking for paragraphs from an "accomplished writer" is now trolling?

I guess it may have looked that way since most people likely didn't see the initial post which was a 30-line chunk of text.

As it was the first post from this person I immediately assumed they were a non-native speaker used to formatting their writing in such a fashion, then wondering why they are getting paid such low rates.

Wouldn't be the first time supposed professional writers ask for advice here with no sense of how difficult it actually is to read their writing.

[ 2 ] Thanks
2 replies

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10416267].message }}

marciayudkin

9 years ago

...And before content writing, there was its analog, magazine writing. The old joke goes that a magazine writer is someone with a working spouse who takes care of the bills, because magazine writing pays so poorly few can make a full-time living at it. Salary stats have bore that out since the 1960s.

I made a living as a magazine writer back in the 1980s and routinely received $1000 for a 1000-word article, $3500 for a 3500-word article. Then, as now, there were people at the bottom of the barrel who couldn't make a living. That is not how one judges the potentiality of a pursuit. Then, as now, it was possible to use smart strategies to go straight to the top. I personally knew hundreds of others making a living at magazine writing.

I'm going to play my broken record here. It is very, very possible for anyone with good writing skills to make six figures as either a content writer or as a copywriter today by going after people or companies who can pay and positioning oneself high above the realm of commodity writers.

But it starts with ignoring what many people say about "going rates" (the bargain-basement ones) and "statistics prove." That is useless to an ambitious person. As Angie rightly pointed out, there are some people who make very good money waiting on tables. (They are professionals, they are masters of detail and they understand where the money is.) Even though "everyone knows" that waiting on tables pays poverty-level income.

And the key skill to learn, which I was able to leverage both in content writing and in copywriting, is how to understand what a client needs even better than they can themselves. That is what they pay the big bucks for. If you sit around waiting for clients to tell you what to write for them, you'll be stuck in the commodity cellar. Tell them what they need and how it can help them grow and you are in an entirely different category for them. You become a strategic partner who writes. Not simply a writer.

Marcia Yudkin

[ 2 ] Thanks
2 replies

Signature

Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10416297].message }}

marciayudkin

9 years ago

Tl:dr since this has delved into nitpicking over words and feeling the need to lecture or create an angry dialog, I have unfollowed this post. I invite all of you who have offered true mentorship to please inbox me with your connection information. I am more than happy to barter for additional guidance or receive advice on where to view educational resources. Thank you.

I am not sure what your concept of "true mentorship" is, but from my experience, every "true mentor" offers insights that are hard to hear and hard to swallow at times.

You have received thousand-dollar advice in this thread and choose to close your ears to it because some of it is critical of things you have written.

Perhaps you aren't ready to accept that your way of thinking and reacting is part of the situation in which you feel trapped. But that's the truth.

Good luck to you, and I mean that sincerely, even if you don't believe that someone who is straight with you and disagrees with you can have a better future for you clearly in mind.

Marcia Yudkin

[ 1 ] Thanks

Signature

Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10416311].message }}

splitTest

9 years ago

Originally Posted by marciayudkin

I made a living as a magazine writer back in the 1980s and routinely received $1000 for a 1000-word article, $3500 for a 3500-word article. Then, as now, there were people at the bottom of the barrel who couldn't make a living. That is not how one judges the potentiality of a pursuit. Then, as now, it was possible to use smart strategies to go straight to the top. I personally knew hundreds of others making a living at magazine writing.

I'm going to play my broken record here. It is very, very possible for anyone with good writing skills to make six figures as either a content writer or as a copywriter today by going after people or companies who can pay and positioning oneself high above the realm of commodity writers.

But it starts with ignoring what many people say about "going rates" (the bargain-basement ones) and "statistics prove." That is useless to an ambitious person. As Angie rightly pointed out, there are some people who make very good money waiting on tables. (They are professionals, they are masters of detail and they understand where the money is.) Even though "everyone knows" that waiting on tables pays poverty-level income.

All well and good, but labor statistics spanning decades suggest that either it's not as "very, very possible" to make six figures as a magazine writer or writers simply don't want the money.

Most magazine writers in particular have side jobs to support themselves. That's an undeniable fact. And content writers? jeeesh...

Obviously, the market (including market rates) has impact on the prospects for success. It's not all just about ambition.

Anyway, your example of the waiter making very good money kinda says it all. If you're comparing the prospects of making great money as a content writer to that of making great money waiting tables, you're exactly right (though I'd bet the waiter does better).

I'd far rather you be right about this stuff than me, but statistics (and most writers themselves) back up what I'm saying. Not everyone who wants to make it big as a writer is going to make it, period. No course is going to help. All the ambition in the world isn't going to help.

And the ones who do make it big? It takes ambition, talent, drive, timing, "looks" (eg. being someone workaday clients can imagine to have more talent than they do in something as basic as writing), "liking" (eg. personal magnetism), niching (typically coming out of already having credentials in the niche), clients willing to pay more than market rates (good luck with that), etc. etc.

You guys make it sound easy and guaranteed for anyone willing to put enough of their heart into it. Yeah that's right -- if you live forever!

...But since you only have the proverbial "three score and ten" to work with (if you're lucky), you might want to invest your precious time into something more solid than content writing.

Even some poets make a great living... but again, the exception doesn't make the rule.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10417175].message }}

marciayudkin

9 years ago

And the ones who do make it big? It takes ambition, talent, drive, timing, "looks" (eg. being someone workaday clients can imagine to have more talent than they do in something as basic as writing), "liking" (eg. personal magnetism), niching (typically coming out of already having credentials in the niche), clients willing to pay more than market rates (good luck with that), etc. etc.

As it happens, you picked the wrong person to disagree with about this, because I not only earned very good money as a magazine writer but also interviewed quite a number of compatriots who did so as well. So let me run through your list:

ambition,

Yes.

talent

,
Yes.

drive

Yes.

timing

sort of - for example, I started off with my first published article being published in the first issue of a Sunday section of the New York Times. But timing isn't needed for long-term success.

"looks"

Never. Most magazine writers do not ever meet their clients in person.

"liking"

Nope. Not relevant in the least.

niching

Sometimes yes, mostly no.

clients willing to pay more than market rates

Nope. Back then, $1 a word was the minimum rate good national magazines paid. Some paid more. You just don't have a valid concept of that world.

So what are you missing? The very quality I've been talking about in this thread. What the writers who were making it had in common was a refusal to take received wisdom as gospel. One woman I interviewed and then watched was determined to start out at the top, and she did exactly that.

You see, anyone who is talking about average odds of success and average income in a profession doesn't understand that the average person has no talent, no determination, no strategy and no discipline. When you're above average in all those respects, you have a very good shot at making it.

If you want me to say more, I will.

Marcia Yudkin

[ 2 ] Thanks

Signature

Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10417212].message }}

andy44

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Tim R

I guess it may have looked that way since most people likely didn't see the initial post which was a 30-line chunk of text.

As it was the first post from this person I immediately assumed they were a non-native speaker used to formatting their writing in such a fashion, then wondering why they are getting paid such low rates.

Wouldn't be the first time supposed professional writers ask for advice here with no sense of how difficult it actually is to read their writing.

So, a poster is not a professional writer but claims to be?

And that requires insulting and ridiculing them?

This is not about thick skin, it is about insecure people denigrating others because they are frustrated and miserable people.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422280].message }}

[Justin]

9 years ago

Originally Posted by andy44

So, a poster is not a professional writer but claims to be?

And that requires insulting and ridiculing them?

This is not about thick skin, it is about insecure people denigrating others because they are frustrated and miserable people.

I agree. If you couldn't read what she wrote, then you've got issues lol. It's just jealous people lashing out because they probably do the same thing as her and make less, or like you said they are just miserable people and need someone to talk down to to feel better about themselves.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422295].message }}

yukon Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Tim R

Paragraph | Define Paragraph at Dictionary.com

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

Urban Dictionary: troll

LMAO, classic.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415894].message }}
andy44 9 years ago

I agree on the troll thing. Same thing happened to me when I asked for help here. It is unfortunate that people feel a need to denigrate others because of their own anger and frustration.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422266].message }}

sethczerepak

9 years ago

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

Another year is coming to a close, and I've yet to make any real strides in increasing my income. I've been writing for a prominant marketing company for four years, and they have billion dollar clients. I write content for huge brands (household names and Fortune 500 companies). In this four years, I have been dependable, but when I've asked for a rate increase I've been shot down repeatedly. The response is always that they pay all writers the same.I only make $0.03 per word.

Starting at a lower rate and hoping to bargain for an increase later NEVER works.

It's not a matter of how good you are or how loyal you've been to them. It's a matter of their own internal beliefs about getting value by PAYING for value. Asking them to change that is like asking them to change their religion.

I don't care what anyone says, people who pay lousy money to writers just don't "get it." Hell, most of them don't WANT to get it. In this game, getting paid real money is more about finding the right people and negotiating what you're worth that it is about writing well.

Write that ^ on your bathroom mirror. It's the most important thing you'll learn about freelancing.

If they won't pay you what you're worth from the start, don't waste your time. Look for someone who gets it and become a good enough writer, AND negotiator, to earn and to demand what your skills are worth.

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

They rarely have to ask me for edits (just a handful of times per year). The work must be high-quality at all times, well-researched with references, and written on trending topics. I'm responsible for all research, edits, and ideation. I'm sad about this because it's independant contracting, so no overtime pay, no benefits, no paid time off, no Christmas bonuses, etc. I write for a few content mills, but, as many of you know, mills only pay out once a month or less, so I work overtime and then wait and wait and wait for checks and payments to arrive.

You need to decide what you want. Do you want to be a freelancer, or do you want a "JOB" (Just. Over. Broke)? As a freelancer, you get the benefits of a flexible schedule and the opportunity to earn more by being a great writer and a great negotiator. With a Job, you MIGHT get overtime, benefits and paid time off. But you don't get to have both hon.

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

I am averaging about $350 a week, which six years ago was decent because it was comparable to what I was earning from my office job. More importantly, it meant I could do what I love full time and from home, but now it's not so great. I feel awful. In this economy, it's just pathetic and after six years of solid portfolio building, I feel like a real failure. I've applied everywhere, including applying directly to the companies I've been writing indirectly for.

My samples and CV are excellent, and yet nothing comes back. I can't score a higher paying gig to save my life. Any advice would be excellent. I really want to turn things around. I don't want to give up, but with no career growth I'd be foolish to continue. I'm 31 now, no longer in my 20s, and I can't continue working a job that doesn't allow me to save for retirement, etc. Then again, I can't see myself doing anything else. I love writing. I'm good at it, and I've learned so much in terms of content marketing, outreach, SEO, etc. There aren't jobs where my skillset is in demand where I live, so if I look for work outside the home, it's going to be office work, customer service, etc. I'll hate that too, but at least I'll have a 401k and paid time off.

What do you think? Should I give up? Is there something I'm missing? I'm subscribed to Google alerts for new clients/writing jobs, etc. I'm sending out aproximately 10 inquiries, pitches, and job applications a week. What am I doing wrong?

I hear this "I've hit an income plateau" complaint ALL the time on this forum. The complainers all have one thing in common. They're only looking online and they're ignoring the most lucrative channels.

Honestly, if you're earning $350 a week by looking for work ONLY online, you're doing about as well as can be expected. You've simply hit your income lid for this fishing hole.

My guess is, it's not your writing skills that are holding you back. It's your negotiation skills. More important, it's where you're deciding to fish for clients. Bottom feeders hang out in muddy ponds (Read: Online Job boards). If you want the big fish, you have to get out in the deep waters.

This means, direct mail, offline networking, all those things 99% of the copywriters in the world don't have the balls to bother with.

Think of freelancing like dating. No matter how good a "catch" you are, if you keep looking for love in bars and night clubs, you'll keep bringing home bottom feeders.

(Another one ^ for the bathroom mirror).

So that's what I suggest for 2016.

Decide what you want to be, a freelancer, or an employee. If you stick with freelancing, get out into the deep waters and starting looking for clients who get it. Most important, NEVER lose confidence in yourself over chumps who suffer from that "bargain basement" thinking. Chances are, they can't even tell the difference between good writing and crap writing anyway.

Casting pearls before swine is a ticket directly into the pig pen. Go find someone who deserves to have you working for them and leave those bottom feeders to scrap over the $1 an hour Indian and Philippine "writers."

[ 10 ] Thanks
2 replies

Signature

See My Copywriting Portfolio and Testimonials

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10414671].message }}

Raydal 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sethczerepak

Starting at a lower rate and hoping to bargain for an increase later NEVER works.

Reminds me of one of my favorite Sesame Street clips.
"Green caterpillars never, never, never wear brown boots."
"Never?"
"Never."
"Green caterpillars never, never, never wear brown boots."

Sound speech that cannot be condemned.

-Ray Edwards
- Thanks
Signature

The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10414820].message }}

subster

9 years ago

Originally Posted by sethczerepak

Starting at a lower rate and hoping to bargain for an increase later NEVER works.

It's not a matter of how good you are or how loyal you've been to them. It's a matter of their own internal beliefs about getting value by PAYING for value. Asking them to change that is like asking them to change their religion.

I don't care what anyone says, people who pay lousy money to writers just don't "get it." Hell, most of them don't WANT to get it. In this game, getting paid real money is more about finding the right people and negotiating what you're worth that it is about writing well.

Write that ^ on your bathroom mirror. It's the most important thing you'll learn about freelancing.

If they won't pay you what you're worth from the start, don't waste your time. Look for someone who gets it and become a good enough writer, AND negotiator, to earn and to demand what your skills are worth.

You need to decide what you want. Do you want to be a freelancer, or do you want a "JOB" (Just. Over. Broke)? As a freelancer, you get the benefits of a flexible schedule and the opportunity to earn more by being a great writer and a great negotiator. With a Job, you MIGHT get overtime, benefits and paid time off. But you don't get to have both hon.

I hear this "I've hit an income plateau" complaint ALL the time on this forum. The complainers all have one thing in common. They're only looking online and they're ignoring the most lucrative channels.

Honestly, if you're earning $350 a week by looking for work ONLY online, you're doing about as well as can be expected. You've simply hit your income lid for this fishing hole.

My guess is, it's not your writing skills that are holding you back. It's your negotiation skills. More important, it's where you're deciding to fish for clients. Bottom feeders hang out in muddy ponds (Read: Online Job boards). If you want the big fish, you have to get out in the deep waters.

This means, direct mail, offline networking, all those things 99% of the copywriters in the world don't have the balls to bother with.

Think of freelancing like dating. No matter how good a "catch" you are, if you keep looking for love in bars and night clubs, you'll keep bringing home bottom feeders.

(Another one ^ for the bathroom mirror).

So that's what I suggest for 2016.

Decide what you want to be, a freelancer, or an employee. If you stick with freelancing, get out into the deep waters and starting looking for clients who get it. Most important, NEVER lose confidence in yourself over chumps who suffer from that "bargain basement" thinking. Chances are, they can't even tell the difference between good writing and crap writing anyway.

Casting pearls before swine is a ticket directly into the pig pen. Go find someone who deserves to have you working for them and leave those bottom feeders to scrap over the $1 an hour Indian and Philippine "writers."

Yes! Demand what you're worth. Never throw pearls to swine.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10604439].message }}

Oziboomer

9 years ago

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

My samples and CV are excellent, and yet nothing comes back. I can't score a higher paying gig to save my life. Any advice would be excellent....

What do you think? Should I give up? Is there something I'm missing? I'm subscribed to Google alerts for new clients/writing jobs, etc. I'm sending out aproximately 10 inquiries, pitches, and job applications a week. What am I doing wrong?

Hi Alisia,

Seth offers some good advice in relation to where you are hunting for work amongst other things.

Here are some thoughts...

I initially read your post and the comments and then I checked out your sig link to your blog.

Are you using the blog as an example of your work?

I would have expected to land on a page that sold your copywriting skills not some group of reviews and articles and various other confusing links and design issues.

Maybe check out a few copywriters websites for some inspiration.

Like Joanna Weibe's http://copyhackers.com

or Brian MacLeod's About — Brian McLeod | Direct-Response Copywriter, Expert Marketing Consultant | LoudMac Creative, Inc.

or Rick Duris CopyRanger.com | Rick Duris

If you are selling your abilities then it would pay to study or at least model what is working for other people.

Gain some focus in your whole approach and the doors will open for you.

It sounds like you have the founding and work ethic to be really successful and I wish you the best in making a success of whatever approach you pursue.

Kind regards,

Ozi

[ 2 ] Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Frame Signed sports jerseys for fun or profit

Includes Full basic framing course, Could this be the start of your new career?

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10414808].message }}

diva4lisia 9 years ago

Thank you Seth and others. I'm slowly reading through and truly appreciate the advice. There's a lot of valuable information here. To answer your question Ozi:

Originally Posted by Oziboomer

Are you using the blog as an example of your work?

No, I don't use that as a sample ever. That's just for fun networking and it's an income stream. I use Trend Micro, DirecTV, and Sears as examples of my work (I can't share links to my work with Trend Micro). A few of the samples I use in pitches, inquiries, and cover letters:

How to Buy a Garbage Disposal - Kmart
Trash Compactors Buying Guide - Sears
'Borderlands 3' Announced Specifically For Next Gen | STACK
http://www.sub5zero.com/cigars-have-...of-being-cool/
3 Easy DIY Projects for a Small Bathroom Upgrade

I have more and just sort of recycle what I'm disseminating based on the needs of the application. For instance, if it's financial, I share the work I did for NerdWallet. I actually applied at NerdWallet (after having written for them many times) and they never even responded to my application, despite advertising for writers all over the web. So weird.
- [ 1 ] Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415501].message }}

Steve The Copywriter

9 years ago

After all the soul-searching, deep analytical analysis and intense self psychological profiling…

You may well reach what could be the inevitable conclusion…just say goodbye to content...

And become a Freelance Copywriter.

Steve

[ 1 ] Thanks

Signature

http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...right-now.html

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10414821].message }}

Jason Kanigan

9 years ago

Seth's post is awesome.

Stay out of the job boards.

I know...your mind screams, "But Where The Hell Else Am I Supposed To Look??!"

Here's a method to get better-paying, higher-ticket clients:

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...riter-how.html

You can substitute email or FedEx or direct mail marketing methods for starting the conversation, but it'll be more expensive and take longer.

The key is going out and creating your own market.

Lots of these folks don't even know what a copywriter is. Yet they're executives at big companies. They've just never heard of the term before.

Imagine that.

You get in there FIRST. You're the only copywriter they've ever met. You came to them and are the only option on the table.

Pick a niche.

Make the prospect list.

Go make contact with them and start conversations.

Great conversations with qualified prospects lead to sales and clients.

[ 5 ] Thanks

Signature

>> How To Grow Your Online Business [FREE Training Video, No Opt-In, from 10+ Year Vet]

>> For Agency Founders: The Fast Shortcut To Selling SEO, Leadgen, Webdesign & Other Services

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415000].message }}

counter2015

9 years ago

@sethczerepak nice break up there and thanks that helped me too!

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

My Must Haves List: Wordpress, GoStats (website analytics), Google Trends

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415006].message }}

Kay King 9 years ago

I am averaging about $350 a week,

As a writer, there are three ways to increase your income:

1. increase fees
2. increase work hours
3. increase productivity

If you are only averaging $350 a week either the companies don't have enough work to keep you busy or you need to increase your speed. The number works out to less than 2500 words per day and that sounds low to me.

When I was freelance writing I planned on 5000 minimum words per day and that's what I did (or more) most days. Those were not full days of work - I seldom wrote for more than 5 hrs a day.

no overtime pay, no benefits, no paid time off, no Christmas bonuses, etc.

That's the trade-off for the freedom of working at home, when you want, doing what you want. If those things are important, get a job that provides that security. Alternative is to earn enough to provide those benefits for yourself. I don't mean that in a rude way - it's the reality we face when we work independently.
- [ 2 ] Thanks
- 1 reply
Signature

Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
***
One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
what it is instead of what you think it should be.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415070].message }}
- marciayudkin 9 years ago
  
  As a writer, there are three ways to increase your income:
  
  1. increase fees
  2. increase work hours
  3. increase productivity
  
  This saying has never made sense to me, and it definitely does not apply to the questioner's situation.
  
  What's needed, as Seth pointed out at length, is a change in one's way of thinking and a change in business model.
  
  When I was freelance writing I planned on 5000 minimum words per day and that's what I did (or more) most days.
  
  As a copywriter, I have never billed per word or measured my "productivity" by words. However, on a good day I write no more than 1500 words. How on earth then can I have published 16 books, besides earning 6 figures a year in copywriting?
  
  For me, I reckon productivity in terms of finishing things - and finishing them well. That's what people pay me for, not for the words or the number of words.
  
  As a freelance copywriter, if you continue to count words for yourself and for your clients you won't get ahead. That keeps you in the low-pay universe. Instead, you need to look for good clients and good projects. This too is a radical change in mindset.
  
  Set your sights on the kinds of clients you want to have, make the argument to them that your work is worth a lot of money to them and you'll be off on a good trend.
  
  Good luck to you, Diva.
  
  Marcia Yudkin
  
  [ 5 ] Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
  Signature
  Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415135].message }}
  
  Len Bailey 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by marciayudkin
  
  As a freelance copywriter, if you continue to count words for yourself and for your clients you won't get ahead.
  
  Very true. the only times I worry about word counts are when I'm writing print promotions with set page limits -- and then it's for my use, not the client's. I do it so I can make sure the pages aren't too copy dense for the designers to work with.
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  Len Bailey
  Copywriter/Consultant
  Feel free to connect on LinkedIn or Twitter
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10434773].message }}

angiecolee

9 years ago

I'm gonna invoke the wisdom of one Rick Duris in this situation.

I wasn't stuck in doing per-word gigs or anything, but I WAS homeless, broke, and desperate.

I was taking on clients that had bright red blinking WARNING signs flashing at me from over their heads, but I relentlessly pursued them anyway because money's money and I live in the most expensive metro in the country - I needed it...right?

Wrong.

Rick advised me to do one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life - take a leap of faith. Cut ties with the bad clients. Abandon the prospecting methods I'd been using to attract them (like attracts like). Try something new. Believe I was worth more and charge accordingly.

This is purely a mindset thing. Take it from someone who clawed her way out of desperation and homelessness.

It starts with you.

The universe isn't going to hand it to you, no matter how much good work you've churned out, no matter how hard you've worked to "earn" that raise.

Now it's up to you. Where's your line in the sand? You clearly believe you're worth more. They clearly believe you're not.

Who's right? You? Or them?

I'm betting on you.

Now what are you going to do to prove it to the world, and more importantly, yourself?

Are you ready to cut ties and see if you can fly?

[ 10 ] Thanks

Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415246].message }}

RickDuris

9 years ago

Thanks Angie.

Diva, Angie as well as others have proved one thing:

No one is going to respect you until you start learning to respect yourself. Revere yourself and what you bring to the table.

Here's the strategy in a nutshell:

Pass up good for great.

1. Never charge by the word again. NO MATTER WHAT. You're not doing yourself any favors.

2. Niche yourself. Concentrate on a market you love writing for. A market that will pay you what you're worth. Investing sites will, that's for sure.

3. Get great. I know you're good but you can be better. We all can be better. Polish your work. Go the extra mile. Invest in yourself and your marketing.

4. Start networking. Face to face. Seminars, conferences, trade shows, meetups. These content marketing events are GREAT pools to network in. Successful clients, the ones you want, are looking for quality writers, not BS per word writers. (Sorry, but it's the truth.)

The unsuccessful clients use per word, BS SEO writers. Not only that, but they run writers into the ground. YOU ARE BEING PLAYED. They KNOW you are either going to burn out or disappear.

How does it feel?

Quality content writing is hard to come by. As a client, I know I'm dealing with a 3rd or 4th tier writer BECAUSE she charges by the word. I don't even have to look at her work to know.

Get it?

5. TALK to Angie. Buy an hour of her time. Find out how she transitioned specifically.

Good luck. The good news is it ain't as hard as you are making it.

- Rick Duris

[ 6 ] Thanks
1 reply

Signature

CopyRanger.com

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415426].message }}

Kay King 9 years ago

Funny how people interpret a thread like this. We see it differently.

My answer DOES address the OP's situation - because the subject was "content writing" - not copywriting. While a copywriter can claim "I never write per word" - that doesn't apply to most content writers.

I fully agree with Angie that YOU have to decide what your work is worth and YOU have to believe it.

At the same time, if you write for content mills or for businesses that hire multiple writers at set fees...you will need to re-position yourself in order to increase earning. You can add to your skill set (copywriting, for example, or specializing in certain niches as an 'expert writer') or you can increase your productivity where you are.

My point stands - if the OP is writing CONTENT (as opposed to 'crafting ad copy') - the $$/week is very low and would indicate a low output of work to me. Just my opinion - and based on CONTENT writing only.
- [ 2 ] Thanks
Signature

Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
***
One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
what it is instead of what you think it should be.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415534].message }}

diva4lisia

9 years ago

Wow! I wish I had posted here years ago. Thank you all so much. Truly, thank you. I see that I am guilty of putting myself in a position to earn less. I guess I sort of got lost in the muck and mire of sludging through work to make a decent wage, which left little time for self-promotion and negotiating for rates.

I do want to go to a conference. I prefer to write about superficial topics, but I have expertise in finance (investing and saving) and web security (cloud security, visualization, big data, IoT, etc.). I believe those niches would be higher paying than pet care or health and beauty. Do I then attend a tech conference or a finance conference? It's so scary to imagine myself at something like that. I'd have to go alone because no one I knew is in this business or could afford it. The thought of doing something like that has kept me from attending a number of conferences over the years, including a year that Ispy gave me a 90 percent discount on their blogging conference.

I'm one of those weirdo introvert/extroverts. I'm outgoing and easy to talk to, but inside my anxiety over the dialog is ruining my ability to think on my feet and make sound decisions or negotiate anything. But, you're all right - I need to stop letting fear hold me back and get out there.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415515].message }}

angiecolee

9 years ago

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

Wow! I wish I had posted here years ago. Thank you all so much. Truly, thank you. I see that I am guilty of putting myself in a position to earn less. I guess I sort of got lost in the muck and mire of sludging through work to make a decent wage, which left little time for self-promotion and negotiating for rates.

I do want to go to a conference. I prefer to write about superficial topics, but I have expertise in finance (investing and saving) and web security (cloud security, visualization, big data, IoT, etc.). I believe those niches would be higher paying than pet care or health and beauty. Do I then attend a tech conference or a finance conference? It's so scary to imagine myself at something like that. I'd have to go alone because no one I knew is in this business or could afford it. The thought of doing something like that has kept me from attending a number of conferences over the years, including a year that Ispy gave me a 90 percent discount on their blogging conference.

I'm one of those weirdo introvert/extroverts. I'm outgoing and easy to talk to, but inside my anxiety over the dialog is ruining my ability to think on my feet and make sound decisions or negotiate anything. But, you're all right - I need to stop letting fear hold me back and get out there.

I do agree with posters above that you should break up the big paragraphs - they're a little difficult to read, especially for people trying to help out.

Follow the direction you want to go is the answer. If you're in a chase money stage, that's fine - I prefer to go after work I enjoy.

And never let a pet owner hear you call their precious fluffikins "superficial".

Here's a hint for conferences:

When I get in an OMG WHAT IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG cycle, which it sounds like you've been stuck in regarding attending conferences, I intentionally dream up the most ridiculous worst case scenario I can think of.

I'll give you my old trusty example, back when I was afraid to run a direct mail campaign promoting my services:

I'll send the letter. It'll hit someone's mailbox and they'll hate it so badly they'll set it on fire and be late for work. As they're road raging their way through bay area traffic, they'll side swipe a school bus and a bunch of kids get injured.

Someone at nearby Lockheed Martin gets the call that little Jimmy is in the hospital and throws his hands up in despair. When his hands come back down, he accidentally slams them down on the little red button that launches nuclear war.

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

The worst that happens is SO FAR from what I just invented that there's absolutely no reason for me NOT to take action.

There's no blackball list that some magical wizard keeps somewhere, checking your name against it every time you send something out to see if you can earn the right to work.

You mail something/email something/call someone/pitch someone in person. You figure out what went wrong or right. You course correct as you figure out what you can do better.

And several years later you're schooling up and comers on how to crawl out of the hole they've put themselves in.

Ask me how I know.

[ 3 ] Thanks

Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415559].message }}

Jay White

9 years ago

Okay, first of all, kudos to you for reaching out for help. 95% of other struggling copywriters will never do this. So good for you.

I agree that a mindset tweak is certainly needed. And honestly, it may be easier than you think. What I would do is start searching proactively for potential clients in niches that you A) have more experience other copywriters, B) have more knowledge in than other copywriters, or C) have more passion for than other copywriters.

For example, I may have many more years of experience than you do. But if we both were talking to a guy about financial copy or investing copy or web security copy (all BOOMING fields I might add), they would almost certainly hire you over me. Why? Because my success stories and client lists are a mile long, I got squat for experience in all those areas. While you can come in and hit the ground running, knowing the market, the products, the language, the buttons to push, etc. They don't have to train you--they can just hand you the project and say "GO!" And it will come back looking fabulous.

THIS is what clients want. They don't want to teach a copywriter their business. They just want somebody they can hand their stuff to and not worry about it getting done (or redone and redone and redone again). And when you market yourself to those potential clients where your skills, knowledge, passion, etc are a perfect match and set you apart from other copywriters, they'd be stupid to hire someone else. It's low hanging fruit, and it's there for the picking.

I did the exact same thing in the golf market a few years back. I eat, sleep and breath this game. So it was a natural move to try and make a splash in it. I contacted one of the biggest players in the online golf training market and they used me for some emails. Those messages blew what they were doing away, and not just because of my so-called prowess as a copywriter. It was because I KNEW this customer inside and out, and knew exactly what to say (and not say) to make them take action. They quickly put me on retainer, and 3 months later I parlayed that success into taking over all their copywriting needs for them. Which of course, resulted in a nice hefty bump in my retainer fee too.

So don't target a certain type of copy. Target a certain type of CLIENT, the type that matches really well with your own personal knowledge, experience, and passion. And don't go too broad with financial or whatever--get REALLY detailed and narrow down your search. Think about what you know more about than other people. Not just professionally, but personally as well (hobbies, interests). In my coaching program, I've helped my students market themselves in such niches as vaping, craft beer brewing, cake decorating, prepper, kayaking, paddle boarding...the list goes on and on.

So try proactively marketing to potential clients who fit into those three categories and see how that works. And hang in there, sis. You're going to make it. Good luck!

[ 5 ] Thanks

Signature

Copywriters! Want to Get More Clients and Make More Money? FREE Webinar: www.GetCopywritingClients.com

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415555].message }}

shawnlebrun

9 years ago

Alisia,

Congrats on wanting to improve your situation... it takes guts to open yourself up, ask for help, or open yourself to criticism... the fact you're okay with that makes me realize you really do want to improve.

Sure, some of it can be a mindset thing... letting anxiety or fear hold you back CAN be devastating.

But I've poked around your blog... and you definitely have the foundation needed to become an amazing copywriter, if that's what you want to do.

The problem is, most CONTENT writing is seen as a simple commodity these days, and if they're paying 3 cents per word, your work is being seen as a commodity by your clients.

If you leave, they probably feel 100 others can do what you do.

That's why I really think studying and learning sales copywriting can be something you want to look
into, because it's LESS likely you'll be seen as a commodity if you can help clients improve sales.

That's the thing with a lot of content... if it's not done right, it doesn't really drive sales. Sure, in an SEO kind of way I guess it could, but most content online these days is dry, boring fluff.

If you're ever going to get paid a much higher wage, you gotta find ways to help clients increase their sales, revenue, cash flow, etc...

And content writing isn't usually the way. Sure, smart marketers know that using killer content the right way can really presell products a lot easier, but again, content is simply looked at as a commodity these days.

With sales copywriting, you have more of a direct line chance to help clients/companies increase their sales... therefore they're much more likely to boost your income as well.

The only way to earn more, is to offer more value, and become more valuable to companies and clients.

And again, direct response/sales copwriting is often the fastest way to become more valuable to clients.

You're no longer a commodity, or a COST, if you're making them money.

Sure, it's not a fast answer to your question about increasing your income now, but it's an approach that I feel would serve you better in the long run.

If you can, study copywriting if you haven't yet, read great ads, study the top books, join some of the copy forums/facebook groups... and start to learn about copy.

And once you've gotten a foundation under you... try to break away from the pack, and focus on becoming well known in ONE niche, and for ONE type of service.

By becoming an expert in one niche, and doing one kind of copy, it's a good way to establish yourself as an expert... so that people come to you, versus you always having to look for clients.

I've seen copywriters become well versed in writing fitness VSLs, to the point that they have clients lining up to hire them. Or maybe you become the copywriter known for writing emails for the real estate niche.

Over time, if you become well known in a certain niche/industry... and then try and become an expert at one particular kind of copy (VSL, email, presell content, etc)... this is how you start to break away from the pack, become less of a copy commodity, and have people searching YOU out.

Becoming a known expert for one niche/type of copy is a much easier way to get clients than being an "everything to everyone" copywriter.

In the meantime, try and find, or come up with, an amazing piece of content that you've done, that sells YOU and your service, and try to get that out there and seen. Whether it's advertising that killer piece of content on Facebook, or Google, or in Facebook groups, forum signatures, etc... putting that killer piece of content out there could get some eyeballs to you and your service.

I've hired copywriters simply after reading a piece of content they wrote, and I wanted that style/voice in my content, so I hired them.

But it really comes down to getting your best stuff in front of more eyeballs... while possibly making the transition to sales copywriting, and less content writing, unless you truly only want to do content writing. If that's the case, I'd still try and focus on marketing content that can influence a client's sales... because the only way to earn a lot more than you are, is to become much more valuable.

And again, it's easier when you can add zeros to a company's bottom line, which is almost impossible to do with regular content that's seen as a commodity/search engine bait.

So, that's my thoughts... focus on becoming more valuable, by becoming known for a particular niche/style of copy that can directly improve sales.

And in the mean time, work on promoting a killer piece of content you've written... and promote it any way you can, and at the end of it, have a way for people to get a hold of you.

I think by focusing on ways to become more valuable, you can start to look in those places where people who VALUE good writing/copy hang out.

I just read a post in a Facebook group where a very well known copywriter got his first big breaks by going to marketing seminars... so that's another avenue to think of.

[ 4 ] Thanks

Signature

MILLION Dollar Copywriter Offering Written Sales Letter or VSL Script Worth $5,000 - Just $500!

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415602].message }}

splitTest

9 years ago

Does content writing pay well for anyone? I have a feeling that low pay is just the "industry standard" for content writing.

Content writing is a relatively new field, and it began with low pay. I think that's the way it's going to stay...

Making it as a copywriter is hard enough, let alone as a content writer.

I have a feeling that most of the responses you're getting here are from folks who think you're asking about copywriting.

[ 1 ] Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415617].message }}

shawnlebrun

9 years ago

Originally Posted by splitTest

Does content writing pay well for anyone? I have a feeling that low pay is just the "industry standard" for content writing.

Content writing is a relatively new field, and it began with low pay. I think that's the way it's going to stay...

Making it as a copywriter is hard enough, let alone as a content writer.

I have a feeling that most of the responses you're getting here are from folks who think you're asking about copywriting.

Yep, if you're being paid 3 cents a word... you're being looked at as a commodity, and most content IS viewed that way. They view it as something that anyone can do, and you can be replaced in seconds, with someone who will create similar content.

The only way to branch out and make more with content writing... is to become good at something known as content marketing, which often can be used to presell something, or it's something killer you want to put out there... because it will help a lot of people in a particular niche.

If you write content that's used mostly as search engine bait, you'll be viewed as and paid as a commodity.

If you can write very unique, different, and killer content that presells something, or gets a lot of eyeballs to it, like a viral piece of content... then you can earn more.

So, yes if you do content like most people, you'll be paid like most people... which is not much at all.

If you can become very good at writing content marketing, stuff that's still largely content and not purely sales driven.. but can presell something, then you can make a bit more.

But, you still need some knowledge of copywriting to do content marketing, since you need to focus on selling the benefits.

I agree, content writing as a whole is usually low paying, since it's viewed as a commodity. To be paid more, you gotta be more valuable, and content marketing can often be a good bridge between writing content, and doing direct response copy.

Alisia, check out Joe Pulizzi if you haven't yet... his 2 books on content marketing are pretty good...

JoePulizzi.com - Content Marketing Speaker, Strategist and Thought Leader

[ 3 ] Thanks

Signature

MILLION Dollar Copywriter Offering Written Sales Letter or VSL Script Worth $5,000 - Just $500!

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415623].message }}

diva4lisia

9 years ago

I think I haven’t put enough effort in. I have focused on living paycheck to paycheck, more concerned with my weekly bottom line than long-term goals. I can afford to change this and devote more hours to rebranding myself as a copywriter.

I believe I am a copywriter because I’ve written many white pages for various marketing companies. The problem is I’m allowing these companies to commit wage fraud. The companies I currently give my time to are the middle man, but with confidence and support I can cut him off. I can stop allowing others to put their names on my work and take the credit and the money.

I have read a few eBooks on copywriting, including The Copywriter’s Handbook and a few Kindle Unlimited titles. If any of you have written guides, please link me.

I think I need to rethink the samples I’m including in pitches, inquiries, and applications. I’ve been the “everything copywriter” or “everything content writer.” I’ve been sending a random sampling of my most prestigious work, with a few relevant samples included; instead, I should be sending only niche samples, so it’s more apparent I’m an expert.

Do you think it’s a good idea to create samples? For instance, mock a brochure? I have plenty of product descriptions, and a few white papers. But, the content I’ve created is so varied. I need samples that are niche specific.

I’m going to get materials together, including creating some firm examples of my copywriting abilities in my niche fields. Then, I’m going to reach out to business owners and websites in those fields. I will remake my pitch inquiry, which at the moment reads more like a JOB application than an example of my ability to sell, specifically sell myself as a copywriter.

Thank you so much: all of you. Before heading to bed later this evening, I’m going to start researching and planning for upcoming conferences. I can handle it. I’ve wanted to go one or two for some time. I’m more geared up now than ever.

[ 2 ] Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415672].message }}

Kay King

9 years ago

The problem is I'm allowing these companies to commit wage fraud.

You lost me on that one - if you are a writer and you aren't happy with what you are earning YOU have to do something about it. Blaming the companies for paying what the market will bear doesn't even touch on logic.

Does content writing pay well for anyone?

It did for me. I wrote in niches I had interest/expertise in only....and earned mid 4 figures a month working VERY part time. Never went to a conference

- don't like crowds and speeches bore me.

It doesn't matter which way you go - you have to pick a direction and push ahead. YES, you should have a portfolio of samples - if you are targeting a specific business...create some examples for THEIR business!

[ 1 ] Thanks
3 replies

Signature

Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog

***

One secret to happiness is to let every situation be

what it is instead of what you think it should be.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415713].message }}

marciayudkin 9 years ago

Apologies to Kay King and others for missing the word "content" in the original post. Since this is the Copywriting forum, I had copywriting in my head, not content writing.

However, I stick to my point that a change in mindset and business model is required for Alisia to break out of the trap she is in. It is not a matter of writing more, increasing her rate or producing more per hour.

If she has the experience and courage to step up her game as a content writer, she can take on projects that solve problems for clients via content rather than writing articles on a per-word basis.

During the dot-com era, I had an assignment to write a certain number of articles, maybe 20, for a website, for $20,000. I wasn't hired as a writer; I was hired as someone who could start up a content center for them and seed it with good original material. (If you wanted to break it down by how much per word, it was probably about $1 a word - but that's not how the assignment was conceptualized.)

The same principles I wrote about in my earlier post about copywriting can apply to content writing also.

Marcia Yudkin
- [ 3 ] Thanks
Signature
Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415747].message }}

diva4lisia

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

You lost me on that one - if you are a writer and you aren't happy with what you are earning YOU have to do something about it. Blaming the companies for paying what the market will bear doesn't even touch on logic.

Rude. Really not necessary to be rude. I don't know why I'm bothering to respond because I don't want to engage negativity right now, but I want to clarify.

First off, I have a portfolio of samples (6 years of steady, full-time work will grant that). I linked to a few of those samples in a previous response. What I said, if you'd bothered to interpret my words without a chip on your shoulder, is this: when providing samples to potential clients/employers, I group niches together to showcase pieces I've received accollades or lots of shares or are prestigious in brand regardless if they fit in with that potential client's niche. I should focus only on the samples that are completely relative to their business.

Second, it is not at all illogical to suggest that many marketing and content companies participate actively in wage theft. Wage theft is a huge problem in my industry. If you don't know what wage theft is, and you don't work in my industry (which isn't exactly content marketing or copywriting, but is more specifically outreach marketing, building high quality backlinks, and blogging and influencing), you can't really comment on whether or not it's logical for me to use the phrase wage theft.

Being inflammatory doesn't help. Besides, picking apart what someone writes is childish. Clearly, I am not writing a research paper here. I am casually posting on a forum. But, if it's going to delve into childish nitpicking, I won't continue.

Thanks
3 replies

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415770].message }}

marciayudkin 9 years ago

Here is how Wikipedia defines "wage theft":

Wage theft in the United States, is the illegal withholding of wages or the denial of benefits that are rightfully owed to an employee.

You implied that you were a freelancer, not an employee. Besides, an employer would not be allowed to pay you by the word. You don't have wages. You have a per-word rate.

It may very well be that you should be classified as an employee rather than a freelancer, and the company you were working for is breaking the law on that score, but that doesn't constitute "wage theft."

Kay's comment to you was therefore extremely logical.

And if you're asking for advice on the word business, you have to be prepared to take the actual meaning of words seriously.

With that said, I do wish you well, and I think most everyone else who has commented in this thread does also.

Marcia Yudkin
- [ 2 ] Thanks
Signature
Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415780].message }}
Kay King 9 years ago

(which isn't exactly content marketing or copywriting, but is more specifically outreach marketing, building high quality backlinks, and blogging and influencing)

I didn't aim to be rude - but I think you could use a little blunt talk.

You began by saying you write content on trending topic for some big brands....then said you do some work for content mills...and you are a copywriter as you've written several white papers. Then you list the tasks quoted above. Those are not the same things so perhaps you need to narrow your definitions or create a business where you offer multiple services.

You do seem to get your back up quickly if someone critiques your paragraphs or your work habits. Good luck to you - I hope you get the break-through you want.
- [ 1 ] Thanks
Signature

Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
***
One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
what it is instead of what you think it should be.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415783].message }}

Raydal

9 years ago

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

Rude. Really not necessary to be rude. I don't know why I'm bothering to respond because I don't want to engage negativity right now, but I want to clarify.

Rude? If you think that was rude, then all the advice given above is useless.
You don't have a "wage problem", you have a mental attitude problem.

-Ray Edwards

[ 5 ] Thanks

Signature

The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10416521].message }}

splitTest

9 years ago

whoa -- this thread went south fast...

Anyways...

Originally Posted by Kay King

I wrote in niches I had interest/expertise in only....and earned mid 4 figures a month working VERY part time. Never went to a conference

- don't like crowds and speeches bore me.

Originally Posted by marciayudkin

During the dot-com era, I had an assignment to write a certain number of articles, maybe 20, for a website, for $20,000. I wasn't hired as a writer; I was hired as someone who could start up a content center for them and seed it with good original material. (If you wanted to break it down by how much per word, it was probably about $1 a word - but that's not how the assignment was conceptualized.)

I'm sure you'd both admit that those are exceptional experiences, and it's much more common that content writing isn't well-compensated at all. I frequent other forums, and I can say with confidence that most content writers would leap at $100 for a 500-word article. I see experienced U.S.-based content writers say that $20 for a 500-word article is "good pay."

...And before content writing, there was its analog, magazine writing. The old joke goes that a magazine writer is someone with a working spouse who takes care of the bills, because magazine writing pays so poorly few can make a full-time living at it. Salary stats have bore that out since the 1960s.

There's no reason to expect that content writing pays any better than magazine writing. In fact, it pays worse.

It's weird how the internet -- an explosion of venues needing engaging content and persuasive copy -- has turned out to be so bad for writers, artists, photographers...

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415863].message }}

angiecolee

9 years ago

Originally Posted by splitTest

whoa -- this thread went south fast...

Anyways...

I'm sure you'd both admit that those are exceptional experiences, and it's much more common that content writing isn't well-compensated at all. I frequent other forums, and I can say with confidence that most content writers would leap at $100 for a 500-word article. I see experienced U.S.-based content writers say that $20 for a 500-word article is "good pay."

...And before content writing, there was its analog, magazine writing. The old joke goes that a magazine writer is someone with a working spouse who takes care of the bills, because magazine writing pays so poorly few can make a full-time living at it. Salary stats have bore that out since the 1960s.

There's no reason to expect that content writing pays any better than magazine writing. In fact, it pays worse.

It's weird how the internet -- an explosion of venues needing engaging content and persuasive copy -- has turned out to be so bad for writers, artists, photographers...

Eh - I think you're making broad assumptions here and very narrowly defining content writing as article/content mills. That's what the OP is already involved in.

Content MARKETING is a different beast, not entirely unrelated to either content writing or copywriting. And there are middling/average income writers in that space and there are six-figures-easy writers in that space.

And the internet's only turned out so badly for artists who don't value themselves enough to fight for what they're worth.

I don't care if your going rate for every other writer has been peanuts. Go hire them and don't waste my time - those aren't MY rates.

Artists, freelancers, and creatives, would all be better served by drawing their line in the sand and quickly dismissing anyone who thinks that's an insane rate. Someone out there will pay what you want to earn. It's YOUR JOB to find them.

If you can't find someone to pay your rates, you have a different problem - your rates are not in line with fair market rates, you don't build enough value to justify the rates, or you're still not fishing in the right waters.

[ 2 ] Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415867].message }}

splitTest 9 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

Eh - I think you're making broad assumptions here and very narrowly defining content writing as article/content mills.

Nah -- I'm making assumptions about the broad market. Most of it doesn't pay a living wage, according to many writers who say as much in their forums online -- the exceptions notwithstanding.

Exceptions don't make the rule.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415884].message }}

diva4lisia

9 years ago

Tl:dr since this has delved into nitpicking over words and feeling the need to lecture or create an angry dialog, I have unfollowed this post. I invite all of you who have offered true mentorship to please inbox me with your connection information. I am more than happy to barter for additional guidance or receive advice on where to view educational resources. Thank you.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415819].message }}

angiecolee

9 years ago

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

Tl:dr since this has delved into nitpicking over words and feeling the need to lecture or create an angry dialog, I have unfollowed this post. I invite all of you who have offered true mentorship to please inbox me with your connection information. I am more than happy to barter for additional guidance or receive advice on where to view educational resources. Thank you.

OK - none of this is nitpicking, and you're gonna have to get some thicker skin.

One woman to another. If you interpret everything as an attack and get your hackles up, you're in for a long, rough road.

Wage theft is something that is legally defined as something an employer does to an employee. We are talking the definition of employee vs. independent contractor.

Freelance writers, by definition, are not employees. We're contractors.

In other words, the rate you're paid is because you agreed to it. Otherwise they wouldn't pay you and you wouldn't do the work.

You can't sue these guys for damages here - you had an agreement. You'd be better served to let go of the angst, chalk it up to learning, and find someone that pays a fair rate.

And just a hint - before you assume someone is jumping down your throat, examine the words and the tone and look at the person posting. No one here called you a moron or insisted you were an idiot. Everyone was helpful and encouraging, even if a bit blunt.

You're talking about forum members who have been thanked thousands of times for providing helpful advice and guidance to people who need it.

Some of us even put our real names out there because we stand behind that advice.

You want real advice, you're better served talking to someone that won't kiss your ass, but will instead tell you the truth, even when you don't want to hear it.

Hint: I'm gonna hazard a guess that with few exceptions, the people that inbox you (passive action on your part) will be seeking to make money off you. Whereas if you go after people (proactive action on your part), you're not always going to hear what you want to, but the advice will be priceless.

Are you sure you're ready for a mentor?

[ 9 ] Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415844].message }}

sethczerepak

9 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

OK - none of this is nitpicking, and you're gonna have to get some thicker skin.

One woman to another. If you interpret everything as an attack and get your hackles up, you're in for a long, rough road.

Wage theft is something that is legally defined as something an employer does to an employee. We are talking the definition of employee vs. independent contractor.

Freelance writers, by definition, are not employees. We're contractors.

In other words, the rate you're paid is because you agreed to it. Otherwise they wouldn't pay you and you wouldn't do the work.

You can't sue these guys for damages here - you had an agreement. You'd be better served to let go of the angst, chalk it up to learning, and find someone that pays a fair rate.

And just a hint - before you assume someone is jumping down your throat, examine the words and the tone and look at the person posting. No one here called you a moron or insisted you were an idiot. Everyone was helpful and encouraging, even if a bit blunt.

You're talking about forum members who have been thanked thousands of times for providing helpful advice and guidance to people who need it.

Some of us even put our real names out there because we stand behind that advice.

You want real advice, you're better served talking to someone that won't kiss your ass, but will instead tell you the truth, even when you don't want to hear it.

Hint: I'm gonna hazard a guess that with few exceptions, the people that inbox you (passive action on your part) will be seeking to make money off you. Whereas if you go after people (proactive action on your part), you're not always going to hear what you want to, but the advice will be priceless.

Are you sure you're ready for a mentor?

Shirley Brown - Woman To Woman - YouTube

Awesomely put Angie. Really diva4lisia. You should take this to heart. You're going to take a LOT of criticism in this biz. You'll also confronted with a lot of "rudeness." Much of it will come from people who don't intend to be. Hell I'd put myself at the top of that category.

Once in a while, it's okay to hit the bullies back. But if you don't learn to turn the other cheek sometimes, you'll miss a lot of opportunities to build character.

ANTI-BUTTHURT DISCLAIMER: I am in no way intending to call any of the commentators on this thread a "bully."

"Wage fraud" is a strong word. Perhaps an appropriate one for people who abuse writers by paying them #%#@ rates. And yes, for every chump out there paying lousy rates, there are thousands willing to drop their pants for them. Yes, this irritates the crap out of me too. But I accept it.

Not because it's acceptable, but because I have better things to do than worry about people who have low standards for themselves or who take advantage of people who are just trying to get ahead. And yes, every once in while, you'll catch me on a rant. It's as good a way to blow off steam as any. Kind of fun sometimes.

But putting these people in the category of "wage criminals..." well, even if it's true...who's gonna put em' in jail? If you want to rant about criminals, you'll never run out of material. Hell, in my opinion, this country is practically being run by the biggest group of white collar criminals on the planet.

But don't let it rent space in your head dear. And don't look for the devil under every bush. Sometimes, people are just trying to help...and when you ask for help on a public forum, you, by default, open yourself up to some drama and "friendly fire."

That's part of the price you pay for learning new things. Learn to eat the fruit and spit out the pits.

[ 2 ] Thanks

Signature

See My Copywriting Portfolio and Testimonials

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10416505].message }}

angiecolee

9 years ago

Then you may be running in too many forums with people who are aspiring to be writers but haven't figured out to make it. Yeah, successful writers are in the minority.

But so are successful news anchors. And golfers. And basketball players. And executives. And every industry out there.

You've even got people who wait tables who make a damn good living.

What separates any of these people from the masses who aren't "making it"?

Writers aren't some anomaly off in the ether - the only ones being sold some mythical, unobtainable dream and then being paid unrealistic wages.

But we seem to be one of the few professions comfortable with saying "that's what the market rate is and it's never gonna change, so suck it up".

If you're comfortable (figurative you, not you personally) making that rate, then you can have it 'cause I don't want it. And as long as you believe that's the rate you should earn, you'll earn it. Period. VERY few altruistic business owners are going to offer to raise your rates out of the kindness of their hearts if you don't make a strong case and build value.

There's MORE than enough work to go around. You know how many people I know starving for good content and sales collateral in the bay area alone? No one has the guts to go find these guys and seek them out. Most writers wait to be found instead of taking initiative.

And like many posters said above - you can either get out there and put yourself in front of people and build value and get paid (which is inherently risky and a turn off to aspiring writers)...

...or you can keep checking job boards and gig sites and hoping you're "discovered" by the right people or luck into making a decent wage competing with foreign writers with a lower cost of living.

[ 3 ] Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10415892].message }}

splitTest

9 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

Yeah, successful writers are in the minority.

But so are successful news anchors. And golfers. And basketball players. And executives. And every industry out there.

Actually, those are analogies that play into my argument, so we're (once again) probably on the same page, but looking at it from different angles.

Yes, the writing field is a lot like the field of sports -- low bar to entry, with a small minority who can actually make a living of it, even with extraordinary talent and drive.

It's like waiting tables too... low bar to entry, and few make a whole lot of money at it.

In fact, it's more like waiting tables than pro sports, in that it's easy to make SOME money at it... You're just not likely to make a lot of money at it.

Only question is, does the aspirant feel good about the odds?

Your angle is "go for it -- a minority of people make it big & the sky's the limit"... My angle is "Take a hard, realistic look at it -- because most people don't make it -- and then decide whether you want to go for it or not."

In other words, if I had a child who wanted to be a writer, I'd try to persuade her to shoot for some other field with a higher bar to entry and a more even distribution of people who make a living at at (eg. engineer, nurse, software developer) ...

If I were advising someone who's middle aged and has been laid off, I'd say the same...

Writing, with it's low bar to entry (and low pay and low odds for success) will always be there... Invest your youth, energy and determination in something with a better guarantee... Look at the stats (there are decades of data out there) and don't put all your eggs in such a flimsy basket as "writing"... (Let alone "content writing"

)

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10417173].message }}

angiecolee 9 years ago

Originally Posted by splitTest

Actually, those are analogies that play into my argument, so we're (once again) probably on the same page, but looking at it from different angles.

That's exactly it. Same page, different angles.

Low barrier to entry, lots of competition.

Making lots of money is doable. But it means that you have to have the wherewithal to outlast the competition and find your own foothold.

Nothing I've said implies that anyone that jumps in the pond is likely to make six figures. And in fact, I believe every bit of advice I've ever given in this forum points to the fact that all the successful [insert any profession here - really, this applies to damn near every role] I know got there with a lot of missteps, false starts, fails, bad spells, and hard work.

Not everyone gets handed The Donald's money to go play with.

And considering my blue collar heritage, my story is a one in a million, I realize. But like Marcia said - I know I'm not average.

If you're convinced you're part of the average, you're welcome to have that. I'd rather enjoy my view from the top.

And there's nothing wrong with being content with average either. We want what we want. For some, comfort is all that's really necessary.

For some of us, there's more to it than money and comfort. Maybe that's what puts us in the minority.
- [ 2 ] Thanks
Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10417258].message }}

shawnlebrun

9 years ago

Alisia,

Not sure if you'll read this, but this is coming from a place of caring, and not negativity.

If you're going to make it online, where you want to be, you will HAVE to develop a thick skin
and take in criticism for what it is: people who care enough, to take the time out of their day, to leave you some advice and comments.

If none of the great people here, like Marcia, Seth, Angie, Ray, Rick, Andrew, Kay, and others... if they didn't care...

You'd hear crickets.

You can tell a troll from someone who is dishing out tough love. So just take it for what it is... people who are trying to help... not hurt.

Sh*t. I remember posting a link to one of my sites on here back in 2003, and Harlan Kilstein told me it sucked.

And since I looked up to Harlan, I went back and worked on that letter for months. And it paid off.

Look, if you're online, you'll deal with sh*t heads.

Any time you step out of your comfort zone, and try to get ahead, you'll deal with negative people who will try to hold you back.

None of that was done here.... I truly feel that everyone on this thread took time out of their day to help you... not to piss you off.

And sure, maybe it's tough love here and there... but the biz world isn't all roses and candy canes.

I had a guy back in 2004 or so, illegally sell my ebooks on Ebay, and everywhere else online.

I had him shut down, for selling my property, and he proceeded to harass me for a year, for shutting down for illegally selling MY frigging stuff.

Those are the morons you will have to deal with... those who selfishly just want to make your life hell.

But, those who are in this to help you... you gotta see tough love for what it is: helpful advice.

Every single person on this thread, has probably done and lived through some of the same struggles you have, or worse.

And I really feel everyone here took the time out of their day to offer assistance, any way they could.

So, don't look at it as a place of nitpicking, look at it as a place for some tough love.

But in all honesty, you seem like a VERY smart woman. And if there's one piece of advice I can offer you, that's helped me in 14 years, it's this: grow a thick skin, take advice from those who may have done what you want, just avoid the negative naysayers who offer no value, and just keep moving forward... refusing to give up.

Best of luck Alisia!

[ 4 ] Thanks

Signature

MILLION Dollar Copywriter Offering Written Sales Letter or VSL Script Worth $5,000 - Just $500!

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10416690].message }}

CopyMonster

9 years ago

A little sad. OP wants advice - but only on her terms. Often it's the stuff you don't want to hear or the stuff you don't like that is the most valuable of all.

Growth is at the edges, not where you're comfortable.

Guess she's really not ready for the answer yet. Too bad.

Anyone considering freelancing for more $ might want to look at Wealthy Freelancer - Steve Slaunwhite or Earn $1K by Ramit Sethi.

[ 2 ] Thanks

Signature

Scary good...

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10417237].message }}

1Bryan

9 years ago

Diva4lisia,

If you come back to this thread, grab

The Well Fed Writer .

You'll learn 3 things almost immediately:

1. Where to find clients who pay well
2. Why most online sources suck and always will suck
3. Most freelance writers are not at all like the folks who've posted

We're a lot friendlier and get what it is to be frustrated. We usually don't take pot-shots on forums. We've been there, done that, and know all you need is a point in the right direction. And the freedom to be frustrated right now.

I started out higher on the pay-scale than you did. But that doesn't make me better than you. And that's the tone that Bowerman wrote his guide in. Which is the way it should be.

Chances are good you and I will never compete with one another. So why would I want to position myself higher than you?

I don't.

And neither do most freelance writers. There are some good videos that have been uploaded to YouTube by other freelancers that should also help point you in the right direction.

Here's 2:

The Well-Fed Writer: Freelance Round Table #20 -...

The Well-Fed Self-Publisher with Peter Bowerman:...

Both are worth watching more than once. As you can see, they both have Peter Bowerman in them. Still, get the hardbound copy of The Well Fed Writer and keep it as both a resource and a source for inspiration/motivation when things don't go as well as you'd hope them to.

That happens.

There are rainy days every now and again.

But the sun eventually shines once more.

Hope you get paid what you are worth,

-- Bryan

... Here's a bonus one so it doesn't come across like it's just all about The Well Fed Writer.

How to Become a Well-Paid Freelance Writer...

Getting the ball rolling when you first start out is the hardest it will probably ever be. If you can weather that, you'll be fine. There are gigs that have nothing to do with sales writing that will pay you more than you made in a month at your current situation, that may take a week or two to finish.

But even if you don't get those gigs right away, it's entirely possible to earn $ 500 to $ 1000 a week writing for smaller businesses and while that may not be impressive enough to cast you as a guru on Warrior Forum, it will pay the bills in Batavia and then some.

(Which is all that really matters anyhow.)

[ 1 ] Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10418736].message }}

angiecolee 9 years ago

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

We usually don't take pot-shots on forums.

A slight bit of irony there.

It is definitely true that you have to find your tribe in this field and in business.

It is definitely true that there are some strong personalities here.

But if all you take away from conversations like these is pot shots? You're definitely missing the bigger picture.
- [ 2 ] Thanks
- 1 reply
Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10420622].message }}
- 1Bryan 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by angiecolee
  
  You're definitely missing the bigger picture.
  
  What bigger picture am I missing out on?
  
  Thanks
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10420891].message }}

angiecolee

9 years ago

The fact that probably 95% of the posts above are NOT pot shots at all?

We've all been given tough advice in our careers, whether delivered nicely or not. It simply may be that the OP is not ready to hear some things or is not ready to let go of some things.

I wanted to be a pit bull on the first guy to rip me off - to pay me a deposit, take my first draft, jerk me around and claim it sucked and he wasn't paying another cent - only to turn around and plaster my copy all over the internet. (added benefit: apparently it didn't suck as much as he claimed, or he wouldn't have used it - I'll take the ego reinforcement)

I had DMCA on my side and I used it. But I spent a LOT of time and mental energy devising creative ways to make that guy pay, to make him rue the day he ****ed with Angie.

A lot of that anger and frustration I recognize in the OP - she's frustrated that she feels she's getting ripped off by these guys' rates. They're shitty rates, man. Totally agree.

None of that changes the fact that she AGREED to those rates and did the work.

It's supremely hard to admit, and a sure sign of career and personal growth - but WE HAVE RESPONSIBILITY in what happens to us.

I worked with the dude that ripped me off despite the pit in my gut that told me he was an asshole on day 1. I wanted the money. I got some of it, and a lot more headache than I got cash in my pocket.

She's pissed, and rightfully so. It's difficult to make a living on that kind of money. Believe me, I get it. I live in the San Francisco bay area - median rent for a 2bed is $5K.

But you have to be willing to let go of what makes you pissed off (or doesn't serve your career/goals) or it's a vicious, neverending cycle.

Kay and Marcia had the right of it - this is not wage theft. This is someone taking advantage of freelance writers. This is not an employer/employee scenario. This is an agreement between two legal entities, both of which can sever the agreement when the terms no longer suit.

Clinical, detached language aside - easier said than done.

But pointing out to someone something they don't want to hear ain't exactly a glamorous thing either.

And I'm SO FREAKING GLAD that people here told me to not let that asshole client take up any more of my brain space, to take what money I made and the lessons I learned, and move on with my head held high.

I didn't want to hear it. I thought some of them were rude assholes.

Thank god for those rude assholes. They changed my life.

[ 2 ] Thanks
3 replies

Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10420979].message }}

1Bryan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

The fact that probably 95% of the posts above are NOT pot shots at all?

We've all been given tough advice in our careers, whether delivered nicely or not. It simply may be that the OP is not ready to hear some things or is not ready to let go of some things.

I wanted to be a pit bull on the first guy to rip me off - to pay me a deposit, take my first draft, jerk me around and claim it sucked and he wasn't paying another cent - only to turn around and plaster my copy all over the internet. (added benefit: apparently it didn't suck as much as he claimed, or he wouldn't have used it - I'll take the ego reinforcement)

I had DMCA on my side and I used it. But I spent a LOT of time and mental energy devising creative ways to make that guy pay, to make him rue the day he ****ed with Angie.

A lot of that anger and frustration I recognize in the OP - she's frustrated that she feels she's getting ripped off by these guys' rates. They're shitty rates, man. Totally agree.

None of that changes the fact that she AGREED to those rates and did the work.

It's supremely hard to admit, and a sure sign of career and personal growth - but WE HAVE RESPONSIBILITY in what happens to us.

I worked with the dude that ripped me off despite the pit in my gut that told me he was an asshole on day 1. I wanted the money. I got some of it, and a lot more headache than I got cash in my pocket.

She's pissed, and rightfully so. It's difficult to make a living on that kind of money. Believe me, I get it. I live in the San Francisco bay area - median rent for a 2bed is $5K.

But you have to be willing to let go of what makes you pissed off (or doesn't serve your career/goals) or it's a vicious, neverending cycle.

Kay and Marcia had the right of it - this is not wage theft. This is someone taking advantage of freelance writers. This is not an employer/employee scenario. This is an agreement between two legal entities, both of which can sever the agreement when the terms no longer suit.

Clinical, detached language aside - easier said than done.

But pointing out to someone something they don't want to hear ain't exactly a glamorous thing either.

And I'm SO FREAKING GLAD that people here told me to not let that asshole client take up any more of my brain space, to take what money I made and the lessons I learned, and move on with my head held high.

I didn't want to hear it. I thought some of them were rude assholes.

Thank god for those rude assholes. They changed my life.

I'm simple minded. Which is why I like sales and copywriting. Did it sell? Yes or no? The only question that matters.

Did their advice help the OP or did it chase her off?

It chased her off.

Therefore, it did not sell.

Everything else is just justification for why it didn't sell.

You may like rude assholes. Most people don't.

And that includes most lucrative clients.

Treat others the way you'd like to be treated.

Corny. But still ain't a bad way to be.

Thanks
3 replies

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422194].message }}

marciayudkin 9 years ago

Did their advice help the OP or did it chase her off?

It chased her off.

Therefore, it did not sell.

We are not trying to sell in this thread. We are trying to help.

If someone is not interested in being helped, that is fine and normal. I don't think it meant that the advice failed or was invalid.

And neither you nor I nor anyone else knows who else reading this thread who IS ready to be helped was helped without having said a word.

Marcia Yudkin
- [ 3 ] Thanks
Signature
Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422231].message }}

DABK

9 years ago

I'm simple too. If a buyer says I want to buy bread, you present bread and the buyer doesn't buy because you presented bread not steak?

Which is what happened here.

She didn't say, please re-enforce my ego. She said she wants ideas on how to find a way to get paid more in line with what she thinks she's worth.

That she did get.

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

I'm simple minded. Which is why I like sales and copywriting. Did it sell? Yes or no? The only question that matters.

Did their advice help the OP or did it chase her off?

It chased her off.

Therefore, it did not sell.

Everything else is just justification for why it didn't sell.

You may like rude assholes. Most people don't.

And that includes most lucrative clients.

Treat others the way you'd like to be treated.

Corny. But still ain't a bad way to be.

[ 2 ] Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422255].message }}

angiecolee

9 years ago

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

I'm simple minded. Which is why I like sales and copywriting. Did it sell? Yes or no? The only question that matters.

Did their advice help the OP or did it chase her off?

It chased her off.

Therefore, it did not sell.

Everything else is just justification for why it didn't sell.

You may like rude assholes. Most people don't.

And that includes most lucrative clients.

Treat others the way you'd like to be treated.

Corny. But still ain't a bad way to be.

1) I'm not selling anyone anything by answering a question that was asked. You're talking selling where this is really just the exchange of information and even *gasp* differing opinions.

2) maybe you missed the part at the end about how someone once told me something I didn't want to hear, too. I wanted ideas for how to make this guy pay, how to hold him accountable for ripping me off.

You may have also missed the bit about how I moved beyond "rude asshole" (said very much tongue in cheek in that post - it appears you may have taken me literally) and listening to the message literally transformed my life and my copywriting career for the better.

So selling another forum is all well and good. This place has never been billed as sunshine funtime happy land. But picking and choosing what you read and blanket assuming everyone was mean to this poor, misunderstood girl?

Really?

All I can say is hopefully she uses the indignation to prove everyone wrong and become something amazing.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422313].message }}

1Bryan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

1) not selling anyone anything by answering a question that was asked. You're talking selling where this is really just the exchange of information and even *gasp* differing opinions. .

Holy smokes! Talking sales in a copywriting forum?

That's as weird as talking sports on a sports forum.

Sales is communication.

Cash doesn't have to be exchanged in order for a "sale" to be made.

When we give someone an answer, we are really "selling" them on the answer. That's where the phrase, "I don't buy that answer" stems from. Or, "He sold me on that idea."

It's also why the best sales people study therapists, linguists, orators, etc.

Therapists who can evoke change are selling change.

Orators who can sway a crowd are selling emotions, ideas, movements, etc.

If you don't know that we are selling people all day long, even when no cash is exchanged, I'd question your ability to sell. To the point of, I don't know if you really know how to sell. I think you know how to write. And "copy" or "mimic" other sales writing.

At the core?

You don't get selling. Not if you think there's no selling going on even when cash isn't being exchanged. Nor if you don't recognize that quite a few (Kay and Marcia come to mind) were definitely not "meeting her where she already is". That's a key for sales. You always meet them where they are. And that doesn't mean their physical location.

Scolding and arguing NEVER works to induce a sale. Of a product. Or an idea. Or a point of view.

But you seem hellbent on schooling me.

So have at it.

I gave the OP links to 3 hours of video that can change her life. You took a couple of lines to use to start something. (Ain't that You missing the bigger picture?)

Why?

Who knows?

Is it because I'm new here?

Does that mean you think I'm clueless?

Who cares?

My bigger picture is just about to come home from school. That's my son. I'll take that over righteous indignation on a forum all day every day.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422416].message }}

angiecolee

9 years ago

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

Holy smokes! Talking sales in a copywriting forum?

That's as weird as talking sports on a sports forum.

Sales is communication.

Cash doesn't have to be exchanged in order for a "sale" to be made.

When we give someone an answer, we are really "selling" them on the answer. That's where the phrase, "I don't buy that answer" stems from. Or, "He sold me on that idea."

It's also why the best sales people study therapists, linguists, orators, etc.

Therapists who can evoke change are selling change.

Orators who can sway a crowd are selling emotions, ideas, movements, etc.

If you don't know that we are selling people all day long, even when no cash is exchanged, I'd question your ability to sell. To the point of, I don't know if you really know how to sell. I think you know how to write. And "copy" or "mimic" other sales writing.

At the core?

You don't get selling. Not if you think there's no selling going on even when cash isn't being exchanged. Nor if you don't recognize that quite a few (Kay and Marcia come to mind) were definitely not "meeting her where she already is". That's a key for sales. You always meet them where they are. And that doesn't mean their physical location.

Scolding and arguing NEVER works to induce a sale. Of a product. Or an idea. Or a point of view.

But you seem hellbent on schooling me.

So have at it.

I gave the OP links to 3 hours of video that can change her life. You took a couple of lines to use to start something. (Ain't that You missing the bigger picture?)

Why?

Who knows?

Is it because I'm new here?

Does that mean you think I'm clueless?

Who cares?

My bigger picture is just about to come home from school. That's my son. I'll take that over righteous indignation on a forum all day every day.

OK - I'm not schooling you. I'm not selling her. I'm talking in a forum, answering questions. I get why you see it as selling people on an answer. But here's the thing -

It doesn't matter if she buys my answer.

I say what I say to attract my kind of audience, my people, and my tribe. She, you? May not be part of that. That's OK.

Her response (which actually seemed pretty positive to my advice) to what I'm saying here has ZERO bearing on my life. Just like my answering her question has ZERO bearing on hers if she doesn't like what I say, if my thought process doesn't resonate with her own.

But there are others out there lurking who didn't have the guts to ask what she asked, at least not where they currently are, and odds are they took some value from what I (and most of the others) said even if it's blunt.

You can paint it however you want to, infer what you want from it, twist it into something it's not - none of it really changes my reality or what I've accomplished.

My tribe still grows. My message still resonates with the people I want it to resonate with.

I never made the assumption that you're clueless - just pointed out the irony in saying people in your forum don't take pot shots when you're taking a pot shot at this forum just by saying that.

I don't know how your forum is (but I have mad respect for Peter Bowerman, considering I still credit him as having launched my career). Maybe you're trying to blend into the pot shot forum by taking pot shots? Hey man, welcome to the club. You do you.

[ 2 ] Thanks

Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422462].message }}

art72

9 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

The fact that probably 95% of the posts above are NOT pot shots at all?

We've all been given tough advice in our careers, whether delivered nicely or not. It simply may be that the OP is not ready to hear some things or is not ready to let go of some things.

I wanted to be a pit bull on the first guy to rip me off - to pay me a deposit, take my first draft, jerk me around and claim it sucked and he wasn't paying another cent - only to turn around and plaster my copy all over the internet. (added benefit: apparently it didn't suck as much as he claimed, or he wouldn't have used it - I'll take the ego reinforcement)

I had DMCA on my side and I used it. But I spent a LOT of time and mental energy devising creative ways to make that guy pay, to make him rue the day he ****ed with Angie.

A lot of that anger and frustration I recognize in the OP - she's frustrated that she feels she's getting ripped off by these guys' rates. They're shitty rates, man. Totally agree.

None of that changes the fact that she AGREED to those rates and did the work.

It's supremely hard to admit, and a sure sign of career and personal growth - but WE HAVE RESPONSIBILITY in what happens to us.

I worked with the dude that ripped me off despite the pit in my gut that told me he was an asshole on day 1. I wanted the money. I got some of it, and a lot more headache than I got cash in my pocket.

She's pissed, and rightfully so. It's difficult to make a living on that kind of money. Believe me, I get it. I live in the San Francisco bay area - median rent for a 2bed is $5K.

But you have to be willing to let go of what makes you pissed off (or doesn't serve your career/goals) or it's a vicious, neverending cycle.

Kay and Marcia had the right of it - this is not wage theft. This is someone taking advantage of freelance writers. This is not an employer/employee scenario. This is an agreement between two legal entities, both of which can sever the agreement when the terms no longer suit.

Clinical, detached language aside - easier said than done.

But pointing out to someone something they don't want to hear ain't exactly a glamorous thing either.

And I'm SO FREAKING GLAD that people here told me to not let that asshole client take up any more of my brain space, to take what money I made and the lessons I learned, and move on with my head held high.

I didn't want to hear it. I thought some of them were rude assholes.

Thank god for those rude asshholes. They changed my life.

Masterfully said ^^^^

This isn't just relevent to writers... It's a global and universal issue, which requires an entire introspection of self worth, and understanding your time, skills, and energy.

I am NOT (as of yet) earning a fulltime income online. Impart, I've yet to accept wholeheartedly that I am capable, ready, or even deserving of the kind of money I can make writing online.

But it goes much deeper, while I cannot deny action speaks volumes when it comes to marketing yourself, your time, your skills to be benefitial to all parties... is most likely an intimacy issue... -or- as "The Love Guru" Says; "Into Me You See" issue.

My greatest fear, is being ill prepared, or desperate when I sell or position myself to market and sell my writings, in fear of being chastised to low market values.

Example:

I just walked off a job over very similiar circumstances as Angie mentions above... Only I considered the guy a friend, and someone whom I have done several contractural gigs for over the past 2-3 years.

*Mind you I'm referring to home renovations, bathrooms, kitchens, tile, flooring, plumbing... You name it, I can do it all, at top-level professional grade quality. Although, a few years back, I lost a shitload of money, assets, credit, etc...

Seeking no sympathy (or pity) - I've accepted lesser wages, as I am no longer licensed & insured, and farm out work from friends, acquaintances, and word-of-mouth affiliations.

In short, I've never billed or made less than $15 -$20 working through this one resource, ever! (* even this is low end IMHO)

A few days into the project, changes arose. "Add this, let's take that out, etc..."

Naturally, I picked up the phone; "yo bro, she's changing this, demanding that, or wanting more or less - something other... So, it is NOT the same scope of work. I'll handle it, I just want to make sure you'll 'renegotiate the costs' of my extra time and effort, yada, yada, yada."

"Oh, of course, no worries - you'll get paid for your time, I'll get with her.. Thanks for getting this done for me, yada, yada, yada!"

Long story short, jobs now done, and looks amazing. What was supposed to be a 3-4 day gig paying $500 - $600...

12 days invested, all 8-10 hour days busting my @$$, which is nothing out of the ordinary...

Until, I asked him for my money!

$600?

WTF???

Hello... Uh, no f**king way pal, you definitely have me confused with one of your flunkie - bike riding, no skilled dopeheads that show up to pick up trash, or tote sh!t.

I just completely remodeled 2 bathrooms... For $600?

No.

Yesterday... after 5 days of solace, whereby I long since walked off the job and passed on 'other' work deriving from the same job... He called.

Apologizing. "Well, I really didn't think about it much. She (a realtor) has more work... Some paint jobs, etc... (Referencing his main trade, his future money, not mine) and I interupted...

"What's good for the goose, is not always good for the gander!"

Another words, he couldn't see past his future earnings to realize; by giving my time away, he just burned a bigger bridge, as he always makes bank off of my work!

I threatened a workman's lean, as the realtor plans to 'flip' the house to the tune of $75k profit, and she already has a buyer lined up!" (FYI... with a Workman's Lean she cannot sell or flip the house until resolving the lean first!)

Oh, he's all too quick to 'beg me' not to do that, cause on the books, I am a 1099 sub-contractor working under him, and if shit hits the fan... He is NOT licensed for structural, plumbing, and/or 90% of the work he's been doing!

Now, in conclusion, and the point here... I am not licensed either, hence the reason I choose to work for far less these days... But, NEVER, and I mean never will I put in 8-10 hour days for $50 per day using my truck, my skills, my gas, my tools, and on a 1099!

*Hell, when I was licensed, I averaged $100 - $200 per hour as a sub-contractor. (Different times, different mindset!)

Today's current problem, is not some recession or depression... That is all a lie, to provoke desperation, control, and conform... And breeds a 'common misconception' or in short; FEAR into the minds of the weak!

Example:

"If you don't take this wage or .05 per word, there's a 1000 others that will line up for the (so-called) opportunity!"

What they don't tell you is; for every 1000 idiots (not directing this at anyone specifically here) that take the minimum wage bait... There are 'the few' who see the problem, recognize, accept, and stand both accountable & apart from the problem!

I've yet to overcome all my fears, especially, in creating self-published works that pay residual incomes. There too, I refrained to 'rush in' and act or take action even as a writer yet, not because I am not a doer or afraid to work...

Instead, it's because; "I refuse to sell my time & myself to the likes of those who metaphorically prostitute their time, skills, mind, and body for pennies of what they are worth!"

As I did for 20 years doing construction offline!!!

I think it was a warrior named ChristopherFox who posted this link to pricing products online a week or so ago....

http://mavenprofits.com/advanced/ove...coaching-model

I've read it 3x this week, grateful I've been patient in selling my writings... Simply because, I knew; $7 products, $27 products might be better than .03 - .05 per word writings, but, WHY limit oneself to create another 40, 60, 80 or 100 hour work week, all the same?

To the OP, I feel the same way about 'remodeling homes' for nearly 20 years - and I speak from a different experience, but the principles (your integrity) is at stake... Not your employers... Not the 1000's of others who drive the price down to the dirt, and then bitch; "this is bullshit!"

Cultivate your knowledge, use thus thread, and threads like it... Craft a $1297 writers course that helps the 1000's that are feeling like dirt...rise above and overcome the very fears you are experiencing! - and let it feul your innermost desire to help others escape HELL!

How much would you pay to make $100,000 per year writing online?

Seriously... Now look behind you... How many people feel like you do (did) working their asses off for (forgive my French) shitty wages?

It's "all in your head" - I know; cause I wasted nearly a decade fighting to regain my dignity in the construction industry, only to realize; " even when I made $100k a year in construction, I was killing myself to barely get ahead."

One shift in the economy, one shift in the housing market, and KaBooM!!! - 20 years of my life vanished!

Guess who's fault it was?

The government's?

The bank?

God? Or Satan?

My employers?

Mommy or Daddy's?

Hell no, it was my fault!

Because, I convinced myself; I liked the punishment. As Maury (who I cannot stand) would say; "The lie detector determined... That WAS a LIE!"

I stand accountable for my $750,000 in losses, and this time I'm building a rock solid foundation that cannot be easily taken away.

I sincerely hope you find 'you're truth, you're calling, and through writing can help, encourage, and aspire others to remove the blinders and pain you're experiencing WRITE NOW!!!" - think about it, "How many content mills abuse the writers true value?"

You voiced your problem, simple solution... Provide a product or course that helps others break free... Do it right, the skies the limit.

Warm Regards,

Art Moran

Will edit later... written on my cell.... at Walmart waiting on the wife to emerge from the 3 hour tour, lol - [whistles...Gilligan's Island Theme Song]

[ 1 ] Thanks

Signature

Atop a tree with Buddha ain't a bad place to take rest!

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422360].message }}

DWolfe 8 years ago

This thread is a year old, the poster above DABK is opening year old posts on the forum just to make a statement.
- [ 2 ] Thanks
Signature

You can earn 10% average annual returns on your investments - https://app.groundfloor.us/r/m2aa7b
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10925633].message }}

[Justin]

9 years ago

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

Another year is coming to a close, and I've yet to make any real strides in increasing my income. I've been writing for a prominant marketing company for four years, and they have billion dollar clients. I write content for huge brands (household names and Fortune 500 companies). In this four years, I have been dependable, but when I've asked for a rate increase I've been shot down repeatedly. The response is always that they pay all writers the same.I only make $0.03 per word.

They rarely have to ask me for edits (just a handful of times per year). The work must be high-quality at all times, well-researched with references, and written on trending topics. I'm responsible for all research, edits, and ideation. I'm sad about this because it's independant contracting, so no overtime pay, no benefits, no paid time off, no Christmas bonuses, etc. I write for a few content mills, but, as many of you know, mills only pay out once a month or less, so I work overtime and then wait and wait and wait for checks and payments to arrive.

I am averaging about $350 a week, which six years ago was decent because it was comparable to what I was earning from my office job. More importantly, it meant I could do what I love full time and from home, but now it's not so great. I feel awful. In this economy, it's just pathetic and after six years of solid portfolio building, I feel like a real failure. I've applied everywhere, including applying directly to the companies I've been writing indirectly for.

My samples and CV are excellent, and yet nothing comes back. I can't score a higher paying gig to save my life. Any advice would be excellent. I really want to turn things around. I don't want to give up, but with no career growth I'd be foolish to continue. I'm 31 now, no longer in my 20s, and I can't continue working a job that doesn't allow me to save for retirement, etc. Then again, I can't see myself doing anything else. I love writing. I'm good at it, and I've learned so much in terms of content marketing, outreach, SEO, etc. There aren't jobs where my skillset is in demand where I live, so if I look for work outside the home, it's going to be office work, customer service, etc. I'll hate that too, but at least I'll have a 401k and paid time off.

What do you think? Should I give up? Is there something I'm missing? I'm subscribed to Google alerts for new clients/writing jobs, etc. I'm sending out aproximately 10 inquiries, pitches, and job applications a week. What am I doing wrong?

What you're doing wrong is you are doing all of the work, heck, you're doing MORE than all of the work you need to be doing if you did it for yourself instead of for somebody else, and there's NO CAP in how much money you can make when you do it for yourself.

You only need a few more steps to turn your writing talent into any type of business you want, you just need some ideas, but from not on focus on business instead of finding someone to work for.

You're handing away what could be serious chunks of money for very little.

Start learning about information products and blogging. Buy blogging with John Chow it's probably less than 60 bucks and will tell you everything you need to know to at least have your mind pointed in the right direction.

You could seriously even write a 4-8,000 word short erotica and put it on kindle, or longer erotic romance and put it on kindle, and put up something new as often as possible and you could start making some serious money. Just whatever you do make sure you're doing it for yourself and not for anybody else, that's what you are missing. You are trying to get someone else to pay you insane amounts of money instead of trying to figure out how to create insane amounts of money.

Just put your focus on having your own business whether it's kindle publishing, selling information products, blogging, affiliate marketing, or a combination of all of those things.

You won't find any overnight success. It's not like a job so you can't just do the work and automatically have someone pay you a certain amount of money, so don't quit what you're doing right now, just start focusing on what I told you, and you'll find your path from there.

some stuff to search:
john chow
eben pagan
information products
kindle publishing
clickbank (for selling your own info products and others but put your focus on your own)
e-mail marketing (use aweber)

You're doing a ton of work, and the thing is with your own business all the work builds on top of itself.

If you had 100 romance titles on kindle right now, you would be getting paid for those 100 books forever even though you only had to write them once.

If you find someone to hire you to write 100 books, then you get underpaid, and you only get paid one time, and that person will get paid for your work over and over again for possibly their whole lifetime or even longer.

Definitely focus on business even though it sounds intimidating and sounds like there's a lot to learn there's really not that much.

Like I said you could start with blogging with john chow and that will definitely give you a good start, or even just to get started and started fast with very little to learn just write some erotic romance novels and publish them on amazon kindle and just have a cover made on fiverr.com

If all I did was write all day, oh man, I'd be flipping rich as hell I can just never get myself to write so you have some serious potential. Start cranking out your own products and I'm sure you'll do well in life.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10421015].message }}

marciayudkin 9 years ago

But you have to be willing to let go of what makes you pissed off (or doesn't serve your career/goals) or it's a vicious, neverending cycle.

Hear, hear.

Life isn't a bowl of roses. But you are the one who decides whether you're going to blame others, get revenge, stay stuck in your anger and resentment - or put it behind you and find a better way.

You can let it go and thereby find release from unhappiness. That gives you the energy for a productive solution.

It's supremely hard to admit, and a sure sign of career and personal growth - but WE HAVE RESPONSIBILITY in what happens to us.

That's the thing. It's hard to admit that fear is one of the elements keeping us "trapped." I put "trapped" in quote marks because feeling trapped is a perception and not a hard-and-fast reality. Our original poster felt trapped but, as Angie pointed out, that was as much her doing as anyone else's.

It's interesting how what started off seeming like a career dilemma can turn out to be an existential one: Would you rather be right about your way of viewing things or released from what felt like a trap?

Marcia Yudkin
- [ 2 ] Thanks
Signature
Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10421914].message }}

andy44

9 years ago

To be upfront, I am no expert in the content writing field, but from what I see, there is a lot of very poorly paying content mills. Maybe try and break into a secondary area of writing. Something like grant writing, or technical writing or copywriting. Whatever you think you can get work in in your area. Obviously, you probably have thought of this but just adding. You are young, you can go do literally anything you want.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422247].message }}

angiecolee

9 years ago

*slow claps for Art*

Man, I can't even tell you how much I admire you for that. It's super tough to admit when a "friend" is not treating you like a friend and you have to either suck it up and take it or tell them to stuff it. I'm glad you stood up for yourself.

Hey, don't beat yourself up for being cautious and not jumping in head first. I've been urged to go faster/just go for it my entire career - in the end I've gotta go at the pace that's right for me, even if it seems glacially slow to others.

The key is making sure you're laying good foundation (see what I did there?) so that everything else you're building, thoughtfully, slowly, over time... will withstand whatever life throws at it.

You're heading the right direction - keep up the great work and work at the pace that makes YOU feel everything is worth it.

[ 1 ] Thanks

Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10422381].message }}

ardiejarelle

9 years ago

If this is your passion and I believe you are good at it. Never give up. I remember few years back i have been trying to get jobs from online freelancing websites such as odesk and other sites exists that time and never made a single dollar. But what happens is, if you don't lose hope and you keep trying, you will have your own break. Somebody out there will actually trust you to do one job and eventually trust you for another. The cycle goes on. Once you satisfied a first client online from freelancing jobs, they will give you are review. And from there, things will start to come right for you. So, you might want to take that opportunity and try. Never give up. Keep trying. Keep getting better.

Thanks

Signature

imicrolancer.com

Tips & Tricks for Freelancing, Wordpress and Wordpress Plugins http://orion-infinity.com

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10426685].message }}

shawnlebrun

9 years ago

Okay, my post here offers no value at all.

I just think it's funny as hell we're all going on and on with this post,
long after the OP took her ball and went home... because someone
on the playground was giving tough love.

She's like "See ya" 5 days ago... and here I am... still posting something.

I dunno, I just found it funny. Sh*t... I gotta go find something productive to do...

[ 2 ] Thanks
1 reply

Signature

MILLION Dollar Copywriter Offering Written Sales Letter or VSL Script Worth $5,000 - Just $500!

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10427545].message }}

Kay King 9 years ago

my post here offers no value at all

Welcome to the club - why should you be any different?

You know how sometimes you are talking to someone and realize they aren't listening...but only waiting till you shut up so they can talk? All the time you are wasting explaining what you "mean" - that person is focused on what THEY will say as soon as they get a chance.

Maybe threads like this are the online equivalent?
- [ 1 ] Thanks
Signature

Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
***
One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
what it is instead of what you think it should be.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10427574].message }}

splitTest

9 years ago

Irony of ironies, the OP pays peanuts when she farms out work...

I'm Hiring Again - WAHM Forums - WAHM.com

Not knockin' -- just sayin'.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10427796].message }}

DABK

9 years ago

Now, that's ironic, indeed!

But makes sense. If she gets paid more than $5.75 an article of 500 words, that is.

And, if she got paid $28 per article she farms out at $5.75, not $7, it's ironic to the power of 1000.

Originally Posted by splitTest

Irony of ironies, the OP pays peanuts when she farms out work...

I'm Hiring Again - WAHM Forums - WAHM.com

Not knockin' -- just sayin'.

Thanks
2 replies

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10427827].message }}

marciayudkin 9 years ago

P.S. You're literally searching for instances and data to prove a belief you already hold that writers don't make money.

Why not go searching for all the reasons you can?

Great point, excellent question.

If you're open to the proposition that statistical odds are irrelevant when you are determined to succeed, I highly recommend the book, Secrets of Six-Figure Women by Barbara Stanney. She is a journalist who interviewed women making $100,000 or more in the most unlikely of professions, including matchmaker - the astonishing example that stuck most in my mind.

My own experience, interviews and observations of who among those I have taught or mentored succeeded and who did not convinced me that your expectations about success are as much a part of the picture as anything else. For example, one magazine writer whose steep and fast career progress I observed told me that she was determined not to settle for crappy fees or crappy treatment by editors. In just a year or two, she was making just as much as other freelancers who had been in the business for ten years.

See, if you believe that you need to work your way up slowly and gradually, that's what will happen in your career. If you believe "there's too much competition," then the competition will clobber you. If you believe the world owes you a living because anything else is unfair, you'll confront setback after setback. But if your attitude is, well let me treat this like a business and give my customers (editors) exactly what they're looking for, or what will excite them to receive, then you'll go much farther than the others.

I'm not saying it's easy. It's actually hard. But it's nowhere as hard as it looks if you go simply by the ratio of those who try to those who actually make it.

And believe me, this is not motivational hot air I'm blowing - or theory. I have mentored hundreds of writers and had thousands in my classes over 25 years or more.

Marcia Yudkin
- [ 3 ] Thanks
Signature
Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10428026].message }}

diva4lisia

9 years ago

Originally Posted by DABK

Now, that's ironic, indeed!

But makes sense. If she gets paid more than $5.75 an article of 500 words, that is.

And, if she got paid $28 per article she farms out at $5.75, not $7, it's ironic to the power of 1000.

I don't farm out work. I farm out research. The people who "write" for me send me framework and I use what they've researched as my basis for a high-quality articles that I write myself. I don't sell what I do for $5.75. I use my own money to get research, so I can write a truly high-quality article in less than 2 hours. This allows me to earn about $12 to $15 per hour, which I deserve and I doubt my company is in the dark about this. If you're curious, I can show you a before (what a writer sends to me) and an after (what I actually turn into my company). Believe me, my company would never, ever accept what a person could purchase for $5.75. They are sticklers.

Also, stalk much? Seriously. I never ever turn in articles other people wrote, and the people who do the writing know exactly that I don't expect much from them. I have integrity and creativity. So, you know what they say about people who assume....

Thanks
2 replies

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10505788].message }}

splitTest 9 years ago

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

Also, stalk much?

lol please don't ever forget: the internet is public, and very, very convenient to search.

That means anything you put on the internet is out in public for everyone to see. ... So looking up something placed on the internet is not stalking, it's just sooo convenient to do that people do it. I look up other writers here all the time, just to see the quality of work that's (presumably) making it in this industry... Sometimes it's encouraging...

Anyway, not to get too far off-topic but...

When I was single, I googled every chick I dated, just because I could. Found out lots of interesting stuff, including an arrest record, and a sad rant about men, dating & heartbreak.

I told a less-technically-inclined female friend about this and she suggested it's creepy to check people out like that.

I think my friend was just kinda jealous, since she once wanted to date me too... but also, like most people who aren't very tech-savvy, she had no clue about the implications of putting her whole life on facebook and such... making it absolutely convenient for the full 7.5 billion people on earth to see.

Personally, I encourage everyone who dates (especially women) to google their prospective mates. And never put anything on the web that you don't want people to see. And don't leave a trail by using the same name (& passwords) everywhere. And if you're on dating sites, don't use your real name with your birthday as your user name (e.g. "jane0915"), which is what a surprising number of women do when the user name they want ("jane") is taken...

If you do stuff like that, you do indeed open yourself up to stalkers & identity thieves and such. Fortunately, people like that are rare, but hey -- out of 7.5 billion chances? Rare is not rare enough...

Okay -- I'll stop creeping everyone out now. Just sayin' -- the internet is public & convenient, so people are going to look up whatever crosses their minds...
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10506091].message }}

DABK

9 years ago

Not curious.

Confused about 'stalk much.'

I didn't assume, I said if...

You spent way too many words on ol' little me.

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

I don't farm out work. I farm out research. The people who "write" for me send me framework and I use what they've researched as my basis for a high-quality articles that I write myself. I don't sell what I do for $5.75. I use my own money to get research, so I can write a truly high-quality article in less than 2 hours. This allows me to earn about $12 to $15 per hour, which I deserve and I doubt my company is in the dark about this. If you're curious, I can show you a before (what a writer sends to me) and an after (what I actually turn into my company). Believe me, my company would never, ever accept what a person could purchase for $5.75. They are sticklers.

Also, stalk much? Seriously. I never ever turn in articles other people wrote, and the people who do the writing know exactly that I don't expect much from them. I have integrity and creativity. So, you know what they say about people who assume....

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10507818].message }}

splitTest

9 years ago

Originally Posted by marciayudkin

You see, anyone who is talking about average odds of success and average income in a profession doesn't understand that the average person has no talent, no determination, no strategy and no discipline.

Lol. Gotta admit -- you got me there. That rings true.

But writers who publish regularly aren't these average people. They aren't joe schmo at the pizza shop.

Lots of writers who have talent & strategy enough to publish regularly -- and determination & discipline enough to stay in the game for years -- report that they need other sources of income (teaching, etc.) in order to pay the bills and eat well.

Most of them report that in fact.

Google the term "writers don't make money" and you'll find a lot of articles citing data proving the point.

Much of the data comes from surveying members of writers associations (eg. Authors Guild) -- people who presumably know all about discipline, determination and strategy by virtue of being part of their guild. I'm sure they're not fools (ie. they know enough about research to find their way to the most lucrative markets for their talents), yet they still struggle.

I mean, realistically, most people who are interested in a writing career -- especially magazine writing -- are familiar with the dire stats I refer to... I don't think you can dismiss those stats with the point that most writers are untalented and undisciplined. Real writers still struggle. The real world bears this out.

Originally Posted by marciayudkin

If you want me to say more, I will.

Marcia Yudkin

I do indeed. It's an interesting discussion.

To be honest, I'm sorta in the same camp as you guys. I say if you have a dream, go for it, especially if you have few financial responsibilities. That's what life is about! Ultimately you'll find your way to where you're supposed to be.

Plus, even the safest of careers offers no guarantee these days.

...But content writing as a career? That's just a step above setting out to make a living as a poet. "Work smart" is my motto. A career as a content writer isn't smart, unless your living expenses are "third-world" low...

P.s. -- those points I posted about what it takes to make it were in reference to working with clients (eg. as a content writer or copywriter), not magazine writing. ...So they're all valid in that respect.

P.p.s. -- I know a whole lot about magazine writing (that's one of the reasons I wrote it off as a career... It's just not a good bet...) Have you ever been a magazine editor?

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10427798].message }}

ChadHaynes

9 years ago

Your beliefs dictate your behaviours determine your results.

The average person doesn't succeed—true.

Being above average is easy—true.

The work required to be WELL above average is extremely enjoyable—for me, true.

No statistic will stop me.

They don't have to stop you either.

P.S. You're literally searching for instances and data to prove a belief you already hold that writers don't make money.

Why not go searching for all the reasons you can?

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10427814].message }}

splitTest

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ChadHaynes

You're literally searching for instances and data to prove a belief you already hold that writers don't make money.

Why not go searching for all the reasons you can?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm aware of the ways writers can make a living. (I'm currently a freelance writer & have held my own for a while now...)

I just see the whole picture and have come to the conclusion (based on the stats, including pay rates) that content writing and magazine writing aren't worth the odds.

Not only that, but if you go looking for all the evidence that writers do indeed make fortunes, you'll have to wade through an infinite amount of b.s. from people trying to sell you stuff.

All the "positive" voices come with a price tag. The more realistic outlooks come from professionals in the trenches, professional organizations, etc. Their encouragement is more tempered...

Originally Posted by ChadHaynes

Your beliefs dictate your behaviours determine your results.

I don't completely buy that. Reality has a say too. Step one: accurate assessment of the reality -- market & otherwise... As always...

Skip that & you're due for setback after setback after setback... and even worse, you'll have no clue what's behind it, so you won't even adjust your aim well! Assessing the reality is key. The better you do it, the better the outcome.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10428193].message }}

Princess Balestra

9 years ago

I have missed out on most of this thread, an' more than a cursory scan gonna put years on me I don't want.

So, on a whimmo skimmo, I'm gonna touch on first an' (almost) last:

Originally Posted by diva4lisia

My samples and CV are excellent, and yet nothing comes back. I can't score a higher paying gig to save my life. Any advice would be excellent. I really want to turn things around. I don't want to give up, but with no career growth I'd be foolish to continue. I'm 31 now, no longer in my 20s, and I can't continue working a job that doesn't allow me to save for retirement, etc. Then again, I can't see myself doing anything else. I love writing. I'm good at it, and I've learned so much in terms of content marketing, outreach, SEO, etc.

Originally Posted by marciayudkin

See, if you believe that you need to work your way up slowly and gradually, that's what will happen in your career. If you believe "there's too much competition," then the competition will clobber you. If you believe the world owes you a living because anything else is unfair, you'll confront setback after setback. But if your attitude is, well let me treat this like a business and give my customers (editors) exactly what they're looking for, or what will excite them to receive, then you'll go much farther than the others.

I figure you gotta do somethin' audacious.

There is a slow, steady rumble to what ur sayin', an' you are rumblin' on a long way ahead in time.

Right now, jumpin' ship looks a better option than continuin' on your barely angled incremental -- which I guess you ain't gonna do unless you get a spectacular reward for throwin' away your soul.

So you gotta do sumthin' to buck the system, an' one cool way to think about it is to figure that any kinda writin' falls asleep on the job once it is "out there".

Literature is supposed to stay fixed in time, immortal, but most copy demands pulse of flux to avoid eternity's flipside, oblivion.

Durin' the creative process, any piece of writin' is live an' dangerous. Bites as it squirms, half formed. Makes threats, consumes promises. But with deft incisions an' last minute insertions, it is honed for purpose, an' framed in air for all to see. But, in the absence of a deadline, alla the sensibility honing work could continue, and 'cos time has a way of movin' on, new possibilities present themselves. So, in the normal copy life cycle, any words gonna blare their frozen-in-time-ness till someone figures on a revamp. So-called "finished copy" is therefore an arbitrarily static WIP whose cutting edge credentials diminish from Day One.

Cue audacious writer.

Go looking for sites with the whiff of mothball creak about 'em.

(Anythin' proclaimin' it is AWESOME is a good place to start, along with tech stuff.)

Sketch a plan to rewrite the site, makin' sure you figure out the Home Page.

Then pitch the company with an elaborate an' polite version of this pitch:

1) Your website f*ckin' stinks: here are the reasons.

2) I gotta better version: here is your new Home Page.

(If you are dealin' with an entreprenoor thinks he owns the place, losin' the elaborate an' polite, an' jus' runnin' with that pitch, makes for a great appeal to vanity.)

I may try this trick next year with either Disney or Apple.

*kiddin'*

[ 2 ] Thanks

Signature

Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10428593].message }}

IWantToSucceedWithIM

9 years ago

I think diva4lisia might not be reading this thread anymore, so it might be best to send her a private message if you really care about her, and want to help her out....

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10430378].message }}

cdaley

9 years ago

Hi
You are an expert an writing content,that is a golden nugget in internet marketing.

Use that awesome skill to get massive traffic to your blog,and sell products in your niche.

[ 1 ] Thanks
2 replies

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10451205].message }}

DABK

9 years ago

An awesome idea.

Everybody (including me) has been moved into the box: must find writing clients when the OP's issue is that she doesn't feel she's sufficiently compensated for her writing. Using her writing outside the 'writer-for-hire' area, why didn't I think of it?

Originally Posted by cdaley

Hi
You are an expert an writing content,that is a golden nugget in internet marketing.

Use that awesome skill to get massive traffic to your blog,and sell products in your niche.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10451408].message }}

diva4lisia

9 years ago

Originally Posted by cdaley

Hi
You are an expert an writing content,that is a golden nugget in internet marketing.

Use that awesome skill to get massive traffic to your blog,and sell products in your niche.

Good advice. This is exactly what I've been doing since my meltdown. As it turns out, there's enough from paid blogging opportunities and affiliate marketing to increase my monthly income by $400, which has given me the motivation to keep going. I haven't made anything from affiliate marketing yet, but the articles I've created to sell products have garnered attention from companies looking for bloggers and resulted in extra income.

I also have created fan sites for entertainment businesses around where I live, such as Darien Lake (a theme park). I noticed there weren't other blogs dedicated to our theme park at all, so I created http://www.darienlakeinsider.com. It's still a WIP, but the park doesn't open until May. We always get season passes, so I'll be able to blog my adventures in the park this year and hopefully leverage for local advertising.

To be extra effectual, I am only writing content for a couple hours every morning, so I've taken a bit of a backstep in terms of weekly payouts, but my income has not decreased. I scored a $250 blogging assignment and I've had clicks on my affiliate links; although, I've yet to secure a sale. I've only produced a few links so far and they're being clicked, so that is a motivator. And, the content I'm producing on my websites is attracting more free product and more paid opportunities, so I'm happy right now and going to keep pushing in this direction, as well as continue writing for the marketing company I work for (just less, so it doesn't drive me crazy). And, I do book publishing; although, I am slow with that.

I thank you all for your help, kindness, and words of wisdom. No hard feelings. :-)

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10505773].message }}

Gimpa

8 years ago

Show some passion. Come to the interviews ready with suggestions and tell the manager how you want to improve them and yourself.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10925515].message }}

DABK 8 years ago

And if the manager ain't interested in self-improvement?

We're back to square 1. Or, worse, the square before square 1.

See, they can get your goat only if they know where you keep your goat; they can frustrated and take advantage of a freelancer only if the freelancer doesn't want to let go of them.

Originally Posted by Gimpa

Show some passion. Come to the interviews ready with suggestions and tell the manager how you want to improve them and yourself.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10925590].message }}

Advice needed...

Trending Topics

Need Help Evaluating My Landing Page - Seeking Advice!

Tips on Boosting SEO and Leveraging Premium Publishing Opportunities

How I sold a monthly SEO plan to a Wedding planner in Florida who has been with me for 4 years

How forums are helping people?

AI has been underwhelming