Do copywriters attempt to manipulate their readers?

7 years ago

Its okay to manipulate but lying or giving them false or misleading information is bad.

Thanks
Reply

Signature

SEO Motionz Forum & Blog- Digital Marketing Forum & Blog,
Forum Management & Promotion, SEO Tips, Money Making tips etc.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11274653].message }}

LilyCohen

7 years ago

As part of the sales & marketing industry, copywriting is here to get people to buy products & services. And since there is competition in every industry, you can't just say "we're here" and bring in revenue. So since before the days of Dale Carnegie those selling products have presented their products as better than the competition (or at least had some redeeming quality). It is manipulative. And it is sales.

Hence the phrase "buyer beware." That's reality.

Thanks
Reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11274662].message }}

Eunice21

7 years ago

I thinks that is the purpose sometimes of the copywriter to get the attention of the reader.

Thanks
Reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11274721].message }}

SARubin

7 years ago

Well, I might just be splitting linguistic hairs here. But, I don't see it so much as "manipulation"...

I see it more like "persuasion."

Whereas I'm trying to show people a product or service, that will help them improve their lives. (for a price, of course). And I'm trying to show it to them in the best light possible.

Perhaps the difference between manipulation, and persuasion, comes down to the intention behind the words?

Or, perhaps the difference between manipulation and persuasion, just comes down to the "word" we choose to use?
But a copywriter once told me that different words can often make a difference in perception

all the best,
SAR

[ 1 ] Thanks
Reply

Signature

Grow Your Copywriting Skills & Network with Other Copywriting Professionals - Join us at the Copywriters Forum

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11274788].message }}

RazvanRogozC

7 years ago

The same can be said about going on a date with that cute girl you've met last week.

You're not going to provide an unbiased, objective perspective over who you are. You're going to seduce. This means putting your best foot forward and dramatizing things in your favor.

Is this manipulation?

It depends on what you understand through the word. Technically, even the flight attendant that smiles at me before asking me to recline my seat is manipulating me.

Personally I don't see persuasion as the same thing as manipulation because if this is true, parents manipulate their children, children manipulate their parents, Uber drivers manipulate their clients and so on. It would make us all borderline sociopaths.

But we're getting into analytical philosophy here and at face value, manipulation and persuasion do mean the same thing. Yet, when we use them, we all refer to two very different approaches and type of intentions. I guess manipulation can be the win - lose or simply win when persuasion is the win - win.

Thanks
Reply
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11274841].message }}

writeasrain 7 years ago

My goodness! as a wordsmith, which all good copywriters are,
manipulating and persuading can be pretty much the same thing. One can be the mirror of the other, easily.
I conduct surveys in Home Depots and when I approach anyone, I am doing my best to talk them or manipulate them into answering my survey. The person I am trying to survey may also not want to do a survey and they may provide initial answers that would seek to dissuade or persuade or manipulate me in a way that may discourage me in completing
the survey.
And, I do, indeed, see it as either that they are trying to persuade, dissuade or manipulate me into going away.
To me, it's all a matter of semantics - but the meanings
of all of these words pretty much mean the same thing
to me.
I'm not a linguist or semanticist but I would be willing to
gamble that persuade or manipulate are synonyms.
- Thanks
- Reply
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11276103].message }}

Claude Whitacre

7 years ago

Do copywriters attempt to manipulate their readers?

If the copywriter is any good, they do more than attempt to manipulate.

Thanks
Reply

Signature

One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11275080].message }}

helisell

7 years ago

It's NOT manipulation.

It is definitely NOT persuasion.

Those things don't work with human beings.

You could never persuade someone to become a life partner for example, that would not end happily.
Nor could you manipulate someone into doing something (well not more than once).

It's all about attraction so the correct and most successful term is ????

SEDUCTION.

Just spend 5 minutes thinking about that....and think about the copy writing that works really well and
you'll understand.

[ 2 ] Thanks
Reply
2 replies

Signature

Making Calls To Sell Something? What are you actually saying?
Is there any room for improvement? Want to find out?

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11275460].message }}

Claude Whitacre

7 years ago

Originally Posted by helisell

It's NOT manipulation.

It is definitely NOT persuasion.

Those things don't work with human beings.

You could never persuade someone to become a life partner for example, that would not end happily.
Nor could you manipulate someone into doing something (well not more than once).

It's all about attraction so the correct and most successful term is ????

SEDUCTION.

Just spend 5 minutes thinking about that....and think about the copy writing that works really well and
you'll understand.

If you read any of the books on Seduction or picking up women, you'll find that everything is just marketing and selling. The principles are always the same.
The Mystery Method is a good example of that. If you didn't know it was about picking up women, you'd swear it was about marketing.

[ 1 ] Thanks
Reply

Signature

One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11275787].message }}

SARubin

7 years ago

Originally Posted by helisell

It is definitely NOT persuasion.

Those things don't work with human beings.

Just spend 5 minutes thinking about that....and think about the copy writing that works really well and
you'll understand.

Interesting...

I was recently reviewing some of my Gary Bencivenga materials, where he explains his "Bencivenga Persuasion Equation"

I guess maybe he's not that good of a copywriter, in your mind?
.

Thanks
Reply
1 reply

Signature

Grow Your Copywriting Skills & Network with Other Copywriting Professionals - Join us at the Copywriters Forum

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11275868].message }}

helisell

7 years ago

Originally Posted by SARubin

Interesting...

I was recently reviewing some of my Gary Bencivenga materials, where he explains his "Bencivenga Persuasion Equation"

I guess maybe he's not that good of a copywriter, in your mind?
.

Well your irony/sarcasm was not lost on me.

Maybe he just doesn't understand the semantics.

The best way to attract anyone to anything is by using SEDUCTION.
I'm sure that Gary (and yes I've read all his stuff) understands this totally
and decided to just use another word.

You can try to push people.

PUSH = Persuade, manipulate, force, tell, cajole, instruct....etc

or you can pull people.

PULL = Entice, guide, tempt, seduce, enthrall, create curiosity ...etc

One method works really well......the other not so good.

The pull method is not manipulative.
In the sense that we all accept for seduction, both parties recognise it and know that it is happening,
but neither resists the process, it is after all, a pleasant experience to be enjoyed.

When you try to push....THEY....resist, ignore, sidestep, squirm and generally feel uncomfortable.

Same with copy writing.

.

[ 3 ] Thanks
Reply
2 replies

Signature

Making Calls To Sell Something? What are you actually saying?
Is there any room for improvement? Want to find out?

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11275873].message }}

SARubin

7 years ago

No real sarcasm intended. I was just trying to understand your logic.
Now I see what you're saying.

Personally, I've always looked at "manipulation" as a negative form of persuasion.

(i.e. Propaganda is generally a way of twisting a narrative, in an attempt to manipulate people into following an agenda, while not giving them the opportunity to know all the truthful facts)

Substitute the word propaganda, for manipulative selling... and the definition still stands.

On the other hand, I see "Persuasion" as a way of convincing someone to voluntarily accept the narrative, as a benefit to themselves, through logical, reasonable, and /or emotional presentation of the narrative.

And I've always thought of seduction as being persuasion of a more intimate / sexual nature.

But, I do see where you're coming from. So thanks for explaining it.

All the best,

SAR

Originally Posted by helisell

Well your irony/sarcasm was not lost on me.

Maybe he just doesn't understand the semantics.

The best way to attract anyone to anything is by using SEDUCTION.
I'm sure that Gary (and yes I've read all his stuff) understands this totally
and decided to just use another word.

You can try to push people.

PUSH = Persuade, manipulate, force, tell, cajole, instruct....etc

or you can pull people.

PULL = Entice, guide, tempt, seduce, enthrall, create curiosity ...etc

One method works really well......the other not so good.

The pull method is not manipulative.
In the sense that we all accept for seduction, both parties recognise it and know that it is happening,
but neither resists the process, it is after all, a pleasant experience to be enjoyed.

When you try to push....THEY....resist, ignore, sidestep, squirm and generally feel uncomfortable.

Same with copy writing.

.

[ 2 ] Thanks
Reply
2 replies

Signature

Grow Your Copywriting Skills & Network with Other Copywriting Professionals - Join us at the Copywriters Forum

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11275920].message }}

writeasrain 7 years ago

Even with content marketing, you are still trying to persuade the client but through educating them so that they move towards you without being pushed to do so. It all depends on the words you use to educate your client about your product but using whatever words you do, you are still persuading, just not so obvious, not so pushy. Gives the client the option to move towards the product and towards you without feeling blatantly pushed. A more "educated" persuasion, but still persuasion. End product, though, is that the client feels he/she has come to you and not the other way around.
- Thanks
- Reply
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11276107].message }}

Claude Whitacre

7 years ago

Originally Posted by SARubin

Personally, I've always looked at "manipulation" as a negative form of persuasion.

(i.e. Propaganda is generally a way of twisting a narrative, in an attempt to manipulate people into following an agenda, while not giving them the opportunity to know all the truthful facts)

Substitute the word propaganda, for manipulative selling... and the definition still stands.

I think the word you use for copywriting...or selling...tells me more about how you see it that what it really is.

If you call it manipulative, that usually means you view it as something negative.

Is the word "seduction" negative? It depends on who is saying it and in what context.

To me, copywriting (or selling) is clear communication that matches the offer with the prospect's self image. But then, I think of copywriting as a noble profession that requires a high degree of insight and skill.

Is copywriting manipulative? Sales copywriting is. But if you are telling a story without the intent of selling something...is it even copywriting anymore?

If you see a beautiful painting, or watch a movie scene that makes you cry, or see a performance that fills you with awe....do you feel manipulated? I don't. But your feelings were pulled in a certain direction....

Even watching a master salesperson that is taking my money..am I being manipulated? Yes. But it doesn't feel like that.So I wouldn't call it manipulation....seduction? Probably.

[ 1 ] Thanks
Reply
1 reply

Signature

One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11279318].message }}

SARubin

7 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I think the word you use for copywriting...or selling...tells me more about how you see it that what it really is.

If you call it manipulative, that usually means you view it as something negative.

I agree. That's why I don't call what I do "manipulation." I call it "persuasion" (and thanks to helisell, I'm starting to lean toward the term "seduction" as well)

Maybe that brings us back to my original post about splitting linguistic hairs?

I guess it's really just a matter of perspective, and intention.

I personally don't start a job with the intention of "manipulating" anyone.

When I start, I go into it with the intention of finding out... "how can this product, or service, improve peoples lives in some way?"

If I don't believe in the product, or service (or the company) then I don't take the job.
It's really not any more complicated than that (for me)

Now, if I do believe in what's being sold, AND it's something that the market actually wants, then I begin the process of figuring out the best way to present it to the target audience.

Often, people don't know what the best solution is for their problems, or what the best option is for improving their lives (sometimes they don't even know if there is a solution)

If I can present them with a compelling (Persuasive? Seductive?) message, that allows them to make the right decision, that will improve their lot in life (whatever that means to them)...

I see "that" as the noble profession of copywriting, and a service to the people being helped (my client, and their customers)

So we can call it manipulation, or persuasion, or seduction....

I guess it's really just a matter of perspective, and intention. And different words, can have different meanings, for different people.

For example: What's the difference between "extortion"... and "taxation?"

Answer: It depends on who you ask.

All the best,
SAR

[ 3 ] Thanks
Reply

Signature

Grow Your Copywriting Skills & Network with Other Copywriting Professionals - Join us at the Copywriters Forum

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11280340].message }}

writeasrain 7 years ago

I like this explanation because that is the method of content marketing. PULL. You seek to educate people about a product and basically, you are educating enough that the client will move more towards the sale on their own because they have been educated about the product and not PUSHED into any sale,
- Thanks
- Reply
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11276105].message }}

Princess Balestra

7 years ago

I would wanna position myself as an expectation masseuse.

It is mebbe less threatenin' than direct manipulation & prolly more persuasive when it comesta transformin' a soft sell into a hard sell.

Point always is ... you gotta have sumthin' to work with, sumthin' people WANT, or the dialog stops dead.

I know for a fact plenty people pay big bux for top quality Cuban cigars -- but nuthin' gonna persuade the cancer-wracked gal coughin' up her remainin' lung at deada night.

*less'n she is frickin' stoopid*

Gotta take the dream or hope or want or need -- large or small, real or deloosional -- an' finesse it into shape.

That means massagin' expectation into sum kinda reality to have & hold in the fyooture -- WANNA reflected all allurin' in Time's Mirror as GONNA.

[ 1 ] Thanks
Reply

Signature

Lightin' fuses is for blowin' stuff togethah.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11275812].message }}

helisell

7 years ago

Claude?????

quote
If you read any of the books on Seduction or picking up women, ..........
unquote

A handsome specimen like you in the prime of life would surely never read a pick up book??

Maybe you'd write one eh?

;0)

Thanks
Reply
1 reply

Signature

Making Calls To Sell Something? What are you actually saying?
Is there any room for improvement? Want to find out?

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11275842].message }}

Claude Whitacre

7 years ago

Originally Posted by helisell

Claude?????

quote
If you read any of the books on Seduction or picking up women, ..........
unquote

A handsome specimen like you in the prime of life would surely never read a pick up book??

Maybe you'd write one eh?

;0)

I have a whole shelf of "Pick up" books. Maybe the best one is The Game. But I was never interested in any of these books until i read Dan Kennedy say that they were essentially marketing books.

Something interesting you may want to do. I did a search on Match.com and read lots of listings for 25 year old women...and then read listings of 50 year old women. The difference is stark. It was interesting to me what they thought about...and what they thought men wanted to hear.

I remember the prime of my life....

By the way, about 10 years ago, at the Sahara hotel in Las Vegas (now gone), I was at the bar and a hooker sat down beside me. I told her I would give her $50 for 20 minutes of her time...if she would just tell me how she figured out how to approach, what to say, how to determine price, and other marketing questions. I was just interested in how she ran her business.

She took the money and then wasn't very much help. After about ten minutes I realized that she was just a sad girl that hated what she did. So I told her I knew enough and let her go.

Thanks
Reply

Signature

One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11275899].message }}

ryanbiddulph

7 years ago

Hi Alex,

All depends on if you do things from fear-scarcity predominantly or love-fun.

Most human beings do stuff from fear-scarcity, with a heavy attachment on outcomes. Manipulating is the natural product or doing things from fear energy. Pretty common among copy guys and gals.

But if you do what you do copy wise from a largely detached, fun, loving energy, the resistance dissolves, as does the fear, and you largely do not care about the outcome. Meaning, as the detachment increases, the manipulation decreases.

For me, my copy is having fun helping people with free content, creating premium income streams, then just getting out of the way. I had to go through many years of suffering and manipulation before reaching this predominantly detached vibe though

Ryan

Thanks
Reply
1 reply

Signature

Ryan Biddulph helps you to be a successful blogger with his courses, manuals and blog at Blogging From Paradise

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11276112].message }}

Alex Cohen

7 years ago

Originally Posted by ryanbiddulph

Hi Alex,

All depends on if you do things from fear-scarcity predominantly or love-fun.

Most human beings do stuff from fear-scarcity, with a heavy attachment on outcomes. Manipulating is the natural product or doing things from fear energy. Pretty common among copy guys and gals.

But if you do what you do copy wise from a largely detached, fun, loving energy, the resistance dissolves, as does the fear, and you largely do not care about the outcome. Meaning, as the detachment increases, the manipulation decreases.

For me, my copy is having fun helping people with free content, creating premium income streams, then just getting out of the way. I had to go through many years of suffering and manipulation before reaching this predominantly detached vibe though

Ryan

Show me an example of copy you've written... and I'll show you how you're attempting to manipulate the reader.

Alex

[ 1 ] Thanks
Reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11276649].message }}

ezjob

7 years ago

I don't think they try to manipulate. They just try to bring out all the benefits of the product in a way that makes the reader want the product.

Thanks
Reply

Signature

My Help Shack - Massive Amounts of Free Training & Tools For Online Marketers

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11276114].message }}

writeasrain

7 years ago

A couple of Merriam-Webster definitions

2. : a to manage or utilize skillfully

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manipulate

Thanks
Reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11276243].message }}

JohnMcCabe

7 years ago

Seems to me that most of this conversation is based on the connotations of the words, not the literal definitions.

If I said "he got his leg chopped off", it brings up one picture, likely a fairly violent or gruesome one.

If I said "he had his leg amputated", it brings up another picture, likely one of a surgical nature.

Yet both statements are about the removal of an appendage.

In that regard, I would agree with Alex's original premise. As copywriters, we pick and choose which pictures form in our readers' minds. And we choose them deliberately to support the outcome we desire.

Which, I believe, does fall under the mantle of manipulation.

Whether that manipulation is benign or malignant is where the connotations apply. If I manipulate a deck of cards to entertain people (like a magic trick), it's benign. If I perform the same kind of manipulation to steal money (cheating at card games), it's malignant. And that determines if I get a round of applause or a severe beating in an alley...

[ 3 ] Thanks
Reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11277238].message }}

ThePromotionalGuy

7 years ago

Hellor Alex,

How clever. A copywriter, unfairly manipulating their post about copywriters manipulating their readers.

But to keep it real...

...ALL communication is bent on favoring the teller. Be it print, verbal, electronic or airways.

Do some copywriters go to far? You bet they do.

Painting a picture that all copywriters manipulate their readers, in your words: just about always, is unscrupulous.

Chinchilla

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

Do copywriters attempt to manipulate their readers?

Yes, just about always.

And if you're a copywriter who thinks you don't... you're in denial.

Let's define the term:

Manipulate: Control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.

Here's proof of my contention...

When you write copy, you accent the positives (benefits) of the product AND you mitigate (if you mention them at all) the negatives of the product.

That fits the above definition.

Not trying to condemn anybody, but hey, let's get real.

Alex

Thanks
Reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11279231].message }}

Raydal

7 years ago

As much as a fisherman tries to catch fish.

-Ray Edwards

Thanks
Reply

Signature

The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11279335].message }}

IPLease

7 years ago

You can sway someone with facts you have written. It is not cool to give false information just to have someone believe what you want them to believe though. Make sure all information you have is correct.

Thanks
Reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11280201].message }}

ciuchka

7 years ago

Here's Dan Sullivan`s take on selling: "Selling is getting someone intellectually engaged in a future result that is good for them and getting them to emotionally commit to taking action to achieve that result." I'm really interested in finding some answers to these questions:
1) Who decides what's good for the customer?
2) If the salesperson/copywriter decides what's best for the customer, what makes him qualified to make decisions for them?
3) What do we do with the bias of the salesperson towards selling?

Would love to hear your thoughts guys, as I find this is something that every "guru" out there is glossing over. ( almost ) Nobody seems to be interested in the consequences of their words / persuasion / strategies.

PS: I think I found some answers , but would love your thoughts as well.
PPS: Or, maybe it`s Dan Kennedy`s "Become comfortable with being the predator."?

Thank you.

Thanks
Reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11280210].message }}

helisell

7 years ago

Here's Dan Sullivan`s take on selling: "Selling is getting someone intellectually engaged in a future result that is good for them and getting them to emotionally commit to taking action to achieve that result." I'm really interested in finding some answers to these questions:

1) Who decides what's good for the customer?

The doctor who examined the customer. Sorry I mean the 'expert' salesperson who qualified the customer.

2) If the salesperson/copywriter decides what's best for the customer, what makes him qualified to make decisions for them?

6 Years in medical school . Oops sorry, the experience of qualifying, (examining), Diagnosing, (using ones experience to come up with a perfect solution) ,Prognosing, (Deciding what's best and selecting the solution), Prescribing, (presenting the solution to the customer based on their symptoms)

3) What do we do with the bias of the salesperson towards selling?
What bias? A truly pro salesperson will have no bias. That includes telling the customer
that they need something other than what I can prescribe.

Would love to hear your thoughts guys, as I find this is something that every "guru" out there is glossing over. ( almost ) Nobody seems to be interested in the consequences of their words / persuasion / strategies.

PS: I think I found some answers , but would love your thoughts as well.
PPS: Or, maybe it`s Dan Kennedy`s "Become comfortable with being the predator."?

Dan Kennedy is NOT the best person to get your moral compass from.

Thank you.

[ 2 ] Thanks
Reply
1 reply

Signature

Making Calls To Sell Something? What are you actually saying?
Is there any room for improvement? Want to find out?

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11280241].message }}

Claude Whitacre

7 years ago

Originally Posted by helisell

3) What do we do with the bias of the salesperson towards selling?
What bias? A truly pro salesperson will have no bias. That includes telling the customer
that they need something other than what I can prescribe.

That's very true. Part of knowing how to sell is accepting the responsibility for the recommendations you make.

In many (maybe most) cases, the very best thing you can do for the prospect is help him buy your service/product.

But sometimes you have to "Man up" and let the person know that buying your offer wouldn't be in their best interest.

One of the few times I felt that I made a significant advance in my selling, is when I understood that it was my responsibility to give truly the best recommendation, based on my expertise....whether it benefited me personally or not.

[ 3 ] Thanks
Reply
1 reply

Signature

One Call Closing book https://www.amazon.com/One-Call-Clos...=1527788418&sr

What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11280396].message }}

helisell

7 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

That's very true. Part of knowing how to sell is accepting the responsibility for the recommendations you make.

In many (maybe most) cases, the very best thing you can do for the prospect is help him buy your service/product.

But sometimes you have to "Man up" and let the person know that buying your offer wouldn't be in their best interest.

One of the few times I felt that I made a significant advance in my selling, is when I understood that it was my responsibility to give truly the best recommendation, based on my expertise....whether it benefited me personally or not.

Becoming great at selling gives one great power.

With great power comes great responsibility.

It is the salesperson's responsibility to always present (or suggest) the best solution we have, that fits the customers needs, that they can afford.

We find out all that information by doing a thorough examination (qualification).

In terms of my doctor analogy, the doctor would not normally give you a quick 'once over' followed by a prescription that might make you better (rather than one that would definitely make you better) just because he gets more commission selling you the other drug (well we'd hope that was the case anyway.)

If anyone wants to make quick money they can easily lie, cheat and blag their way to a sale.......but not if they want to keep doing it long term.

That's what separates the true pro's from the desperate wannabe's.

Some great contributions on this thread.

[ 3 ] Thanks
Reply

Signature

Making Calls To Sell Something? What are you actually saying?
Is there any room for improvement? Want to find out?

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11280695].message }}

ciuchka

7 years ago

Thank you very much for your thoughts @Helisell. Really helpful.

Thanks
Reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[11280252].message }}

Bella Lopez

7 years ago

We're all here for a reason. The main intent of copywriting is often to drive traffic and increase conversions and we all want to achieve our end goals.

Call it manipulation or persuasion, we all want to make our product (or service) stand out from the rest. As long as we are not giving any wrong information, and our intent is right, there is no harm in a little "manipulation".

[ 1 ] Thanks
Reply