Who is the best ClickBank VSL copywriter?

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Alex Cohen

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

That's a pretty large budget. Just make sure you save a big part of it for video production.

It's 2013. These days, a boring video with low production value probably won't cut it.

John

A boring VSL has never done well, not just in 2013.

And so-called "ugly" VSLs are still alive and well.

Alex

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

A boring VSL has never done well, not just in 2013.

And so-called "ugly" VSLs are still alive and well.

That's very interesting...

So you find parroting static text on the screen along with a voice-over to be exciting?

(Hmm... apparently Andy Jenkins is full of it because he thinks production value matters, too.)

John

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Cool Hand Luke

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

That's very interesting...

So you find parroting static text on the screen along with a voice-over to be exciting?

(Hmm... apparently Andy Jenkins is full of it because he thinks production value matters, too.)

John

Powerpoint videos may not be exciting, but they work as well as ever.... and I've seen them out-convert whiteboard animation and other high-quality video production in the finance, self-defense, survivalist, and a half dozen other major niches time and time again. Powerpoint videos should not be disregarded just because they aren't new or exciting. They SELL, and that's what matters.

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

Powerpoint videos should not be disregarded just because they aren't new or exciting.

These days, those PowerPoint videos are OFTEN combined with screen capture video and other visual elements (such as images).

I'm saying the VSLs you see that are JUST static black text with a voice-over are extremely dull. And dull videos do not sell as well as interesting videos.

That's my very simple point.

John

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Cool Hand Luke

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

These days, those PowerPoint videos are OFTEN combined with screen capture video and other visual elements (such as images).

I'm saying the VSLs you see that are JUST static black text with a voice-over are extremely dull. And dull videos do not sell as well as interesting videos.

That's my point. Nothing more.

(If you have data that suggests boring people to death is the best way to make sales, I'd love to see it.)

John

No one said anything about just static black text with a voiceover, that's just you not understanding how they should be done. Since day one when Ryan Deiss and Jon Benson were pioneering Powerpoint VSLs, smart marketers have been using coloring AND images in their powerpoint videos, and these types of videos have made hundreds of millions of dollars in the last few years.

Don't believe me? Look into how well Agora's End of America video did for them... and that's one video. One simple, text-based powerpoint video.

If you have data suggesting well-done powerpoint videos don't work, I'd love to see it.

You don't need a high-production video or an enormous production budget to do exceptionally well. It's also a great way to get going quickly and start making money. That's my very simple point.

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Johnny12345 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

No one said anything about just static black text with a voiceover

I merely suggested that the OP save money for video production value. I wasn't trying to spark a debate. I was offering a helpful suggestion to one person.

Opinions vary... but, if production value doesn't matter, EXPERTS such as Andy Jenkins and Mike Filsaime wouldn't invest so much time, effort, and money into it.

Personally, I can't make it through one of those "ugly" VSLs. The boredom is so excruciating that I invariably doze off. And I've heard others voice the same opinion.

The thing is... video isn't new any longer. People have seen it before. If you want to hold attention, you've got to surprise Broca's area (read Roy Williams' great stuff). That's why, going forward, video needs to improve, adapt, and change.

(Note: I deleted the last line of my reply to you because, when I read it again, I thought it came across as somewhat pretentious... but I actually meant it to be humorous.)

John
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12 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

No one said anything about just static black text with a voiceover, that's just you not understanding how they should be done. Since day one when Ryan Deiss and Jon Benson were pioneering Powerpoint VSLs, smart marketers have been using coloring AND images in their powerpoint videos, and these types of videos have made hundreds of millions of dollars in the last few years.

Don't believe me? Look into how well Agora's End of America video did for them... and that's one video. One simple, text-based powerpoint video.

If you have data suggesting well-done powerpoint videos don't work, I'd love to see it.

You don't need a high-production video or an enormous production budget to do exceptionally well. It's also a great way to get going quickly and start making money. That's my very simple point.

So... checking my email this morning, I'm seeing the regular promos I get from the multi-million dollar publishers like Agora and similar companies... and I'm still seeing those simple Powerpoint presentations.

And I'm sure they've tested those against other options.

Like Brian said... give me a boring Powerpoint with a GREAT sales pitch anyday over the most beautifully-made video with a shitty pitch.

Get your list/market right... a great over, and a great pitch... and you can have the most archaic looking sales page and still pull in millions. I know a few who do that now...

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by shawnlebrun

So... checking my email this morning, I'm seeing the regular promos I get from the multi-million dollar publishers like Agora and similar companies... and I'm still seeing those simple Powerpoint presentations.

And I'm sure they've tested those against other options.

Based strictly on my own experiences with a few branches of Agora, they'll roll a new salesletter out in ordinary HTML/CSS fashion. If it converts well enough then they'll pay to have the voice-over and PP-style video created.

Otherwise, they don't want to throw more money behind a campaign that isn't working.

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Johnny12345 12 years ago

Originally Posted by shawnlebrun

Like Brian said... give me a boring Powerpoint with a GREAT sales pitch anyday over the most beautifully-made video with a shitty pitch.

That's fine, of course. But I don't think it's an either/or situation. In my view, you should take your very best shot right out of the gate.

That's why my goal would be to have a great sales pitch AND a great video. (I would then use that as my control.)

For example...

Let's say, hypothetically, the budget is $12,000 and you spent $8,000 on copywriting and $4,000 on the look of the video.

The question becomes: Would spending an extra $4,000 on copywriting (while completely sacrificing the look of the video), *really* get you a better video script?

Maybe. However, I don't think so. (I guess you could say I'm on "Team Jenkins.") But, obviously, opinions vary on this subject.

John
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Sean Fry

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

That's very interesting...

So you find parroting static text on the screen along with a voice-over to be exciting?

It's not the static text and v/o that are inherently "exciting," it's the content. Totally depends on the copy and the story. And when those things are rolling, and when the content is relevant to the viewer and what they're trying to solve, they are engaging for the same reasons why any good story or book is engaging.

(Hmm... apparently Andy Jenkins is full of it because he thinks production value matters, too.)

John

Jenkins style videos are good for engagement. But that doesn't necessarily equate to a higher conversion rate, that still comes down to the copy and the offer.

I look at VSL's as having "layers," like an image would in photoshop.
The text on the screen is one layer. (the core pitch)
The voice over is another layer. (engagement)
Adding video scribing is like another layer. (engagement)
Music is another layer. (engagement)
And so on...

Adding additional layers will help engagement, which is always good, but it's still the core pitch doing the heavy lifting. A solid offer should be able to stand on its own without all the "flash."

Not all offers call for a full blown, bossy Jenkins style production. In many situations, a boring text powerpoint style vsl would outperform a movie quality production. Some offers need to have a proper Jenkins style video to convert.

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by Sean Fry

Not all offers call for a full blown, bossy Jenkins style production. In many situations, a boring text powerpoint style vsl would outperform a movie quality production. Some offers need to have a proper Jenkins style video to convert.

Maybe. And, of course, I realize that opinions do vary widely.

But, the thing is... I've never seen an infomercial that would be better in PowerPoint style.

And I, personally, have a hard time staying awake through those "plain text & voice-over" style videos. Broca's area doesn't like to be bored.

And that's why I strongly suspect Roy Williams would agree with me.

John

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sethczerepak

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

That's a pretty large budget. Just make sure you save a big part of it for video production.

It's 2013. These days, a boring video with low production value probably won't cut it.

John

What?! Invest as much as you can into getting a damn good copywriter. You can do the video on Powtoons or power point. As long as the copy is a knockout, you'll do very well in that niche.

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Mark Pescetti

12 years ago

What's your product?

And what kind of ability do you have to drive quality traffic?

Mark

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IndiForce

12 years ago

Find out if Mark Pescetti is available for this project. He has a great reputation here.

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BrianMcLeod

12 years ago

If an ugly, plain powerpoint VSL with a good VO bombs... you've just saved yourself a big, whopping pile of cash that fools splash out on more costly creative, hoping the pitch works. I see gorgeous videos with awful pitches all the time, what a waste.

One the other hand, if an ugly, plain powerpoint VSL with a good VO makes money... Now, you're generating CASH FLOW to pay for new and more labor-intensive creative elements like doodle animation, motion graphics, kinetic type, etc. And you have a control to test against.

Vive le ugly VSL!

And with respect to the OP - in no particular order I'd talk to Kevin Rogers & Ben Johnson, Vin Montello & Ross Bowring, Matt O'Conner, and/or David Raybould.

Best,

Brian

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Brian McLeod

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

... you've just saved yourself a big, whopping pile of cash that fools splash out on more costly creative, hoping the pitch works.

Hi Brian,

Suggesting that the OP test and conserve cash is certainly a reasonable strategy. After all, maybe it will bomb no matter how good the copy or video is (or is not).

But, just for fun...

Let's assume he decides to spend the full $12,000 -- his maximum budget. How would you allot the cash between copywriting and video production?

In my view, both are important. So I would probably do something like a two-thirds copywriting and one-third video production split.

What would you do?

John

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

Hi Brian,

Suggesting that the OP test and conserve cash is certainly a reasonable strategy. After all, maybe it will bomb no matter how good the copy or video is (or is not).

But, just for fun...

Let's assume he decides to spend the full $12,000 -- his maximum budget. How would you allot the cash between copywriting and video production?

In my view, both are important. So I would probably do something like a two-thirds copywriting and one-third video production split.

What would you do?

John

I'd put 80-100% of the budget into the copywriting... roll out a PP-style VSL to test the copy and the offer... get some initial metrics and see if I could quickly increase the conversion rates via some on-page testing. If I didn't invest 100% of my budget, it's because I want to outsource the video editing or drive some paid traffic to the VSL for testing purposes.

From there, I'd take a portion of sales and reinvest it into upgrading parts or the entire VSL to something higher production IF I felt like I needed to do so.

But as other people in this thread have pointed out, if the PP-style VSL is already crushing it, then I'd probably stick with that VSL until it's response starts to cool off which could take a long time to happen.

My 3 cents,

Mike

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BrianMcLeod 12 years ago

John asked how I would parse out the work with a $12K budget.

Short answer is, I wouldn't. I create every VSL that goes out the door, myself.

It's simple, but it's not easy. I've spent a lifetime learning how.

The tools I use make it a very efficient trip from mind to .MOV (ahem, Keynote..)
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- Johnny12345 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod
  
  John asked how I would parse out the work with a $12K budget.
  
  Short answer is, I wouldn't. I create every VSL that goes out the door, myself.
  
  Brian,
  
  OK, that's a valid answer. But let me reframe it...
  
  Let's say two different copy clients come to you. Each is selling a very similar product. The first one wants only a video sales letter script; the second wants a ready-to-use video.
  
  How much less do you charge the FIRST guy?
  
  John
  
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Don Grace

12 years ago

Let's assume he decides to spend the full $12,000 -- his maximum budget. How would you allot the cash between copywriting and video production?

Simple, hire copywriter who can do all of the above for one price.

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Mark Pescetti

12 years ago

The only thing I'd add is...

There are a few markets that PP just doesn't fly, especially in a more commercial environment.

I agree that, in most cases, a PP video will give you a pretty damn clear insight whether your copy converts or not, but not always.

Also...

In my experience, the way I write a PP script vs. a doodle vid are very, very different.

I would have to do a lot of modifications to a doodle script to make it PP ready.

So make sure the intentions for using the script are clearly communicated - BEFORE you put pen to paper.

Mark

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

I'd put 80-100% of the budget into the copywriting... roll out a PP-style VSL to test the copy and the offer... get some initial metrics and see if I could quickly increase the conversion rates via some on-page testing.

OK, I understand your intent...

However, you're hedging a bit -- 20% of $12,000 is still $2,400 (a fairly good video budget). But 0% means you're stuck using static black text with a quick voice-over job.

That's a pretty significant difference.

John

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

OK, I understand your intent...

However, you're hedging a bit -- 20% of $12,000 is still $2,400 (a fairly good video budget). But 0% means you're stuck using static black text with a quick voice-over job.

That's a pretty significant difference.

John

Good question. My fee is my fee. It's the same regardless of what their stated budget may be.

In some cases, my fee represents 100% of their stated budget... other times, it's less than 100% of their stated budget. Either way, when I take on a project, I'm still involved pretty much every step of the way. It's also going to take me a significant chunk of time to write and deliver everything... four weeks minimum from when I agree to start their project. So this can allow them to budget video production separately as well.

I deliver the VSL as the voice-over script and the PP slides. I do not create or edit the video for my client although there has been times I've had to pinch-hit b/c the video person they hired completely screwed it up and time constraints didn't allow us to hire a new video person and still launch on time.

Most of my clients are fine with doing the voice-over themselves in the privacy of their own office especially if their voice appears in other parts of their business (promtional, interviews, info-product contents).

I also instruct them on how to do the voice-over "Video Boss style" which makes it a lot less stressful for them to do. Out of respect for Andy Jenkins' hard work creating his paid training programs, I won't go into more detail on everything this style entails.

The exception to my clients' doing their own voice-over is if they have a strong accent or really, really strong fears of doing the voice-over.

Of course, when I point out that they can do as many takes or do-overs as they need to and all of the "mess-ups" will be removed during the editing process, it frequently removes any worries they may have.

The majority of the time, my clients already have someone in mind to do the editing or else I refer them to someone who they pay separate from their deal with me.

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

I deliver the VSL as the voice-over script and the PP slides.

That's interesting. I'm surprised that you also provide the slides for them. I would have expected them to have a video editor/designer handle that task.

John

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

That's interesting. I'm surprised that you also provide the slides for them. I would have expected them to have a video editor/designer handle that task.

John

I remember back in 2009 or so, I was hired to do a video sales letter.

When asked if I could put it into Powerpoint Slides, I naively said "sure, no prob"

Damn... it was a BIG prob. Since I wasn't familiar with Powerpoint much, it took me over 12 hours just to get the copy onto slides.

That was the first and ONLY time I've done the slides for a client. For me, it's much more worth my time to hire someone else to do it for me, someone who can do it in a snap.

More power to you, Mike... I'm Powerpoint illiterate and would rather pay someone else who can do it fast.

Or, what I do most of the times is send over the script in a word doc... with the blocks separated as they should go on a slide... and I'll bold and italicize the words like I would if I was doing the slides.

So yeah, it helps to have a good Powerpoint person on your team when you really suck at it yourself!

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by shawnlebrun

I remember back in 2009 or so, I was hired to do a video sales letter.

When asked if I could put it into Powerpoint Slides, I naively said "sure, no prob"

Damn... it was a BIG prob. Since I wasn't familiar with Powerpoint much, it took me over 12 hours just to get the copy onto slides.

That was the first and ONLY time I've done the slides for a client. For me, it's much more worth my time to hire someone else to do it for me, someone who can do it in a snap.

More power to you, Mike... I'm Powerpoint illiterate and would rather pay someone else who can do it fast.

Or, what I do most of the times is send over the script in a word doc... with the blocks separated as they should go on a slide... and I'll bold and italicize the words like I would if I was doing the slides.

So yeah, it helps to have a good Powerpoint person on your team when you really suck at it yourself!

I'll admit that I'm not a PowerPoint pro by any stretch of the imagination. For the first few times I did it, I was using some very colorful language as I struggled through it for hours and hours.

But my last few VSL projects, the slides have been A LOT faster -- like 90% faster -- using the technique Bruce Wedding shared here:

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ml#post7669910

It worked so well for me that I made it a point of thanking Bruce in person AND buying him a "thank you" beer when I saw him at the Warrior Event in Raleigh this summer.

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

That's interesting. I'm surprised that you also provide the slides for them. I would have expected them to have a video editor/designer handle that task.

John

Put it this way... if you want to make sure the slides say what you want them to say and use graphic elements correctly, then it's probably in your best interests to include in your project and charge accordingly.

It's been my experience that outside editors/designers just put the script verbatim on the slides which is a big mistake IMHO because the way we talk verbally isn't the same as we talk in text.

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davemiz

12 years ago

FYI... folks...

you dont see andy's style of videos as front end type stuff.

its more used for launch type videos.

and folks... hate to tell you geniuses... your opinions (or mine) really don't mean jack.

you're *supposed to be* direct response marketers...

i.e. you TEST and use what works best.

Look at the top offers online... they're all *very* similar... that should tell you something right there. :-)

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by davemiz

FYI... folks...

you dont see andy's style of videos as front end type stuff.

its more used for launch type videos.

and folks... hate to tell you geniuses... your opinions (or mine) really don't mean jack.

you're *supposed to be* direct response marketers...

i.e. you TEST and use what works best.

Look at the top offers online... they're all *very* similar... that should tell you something right there. :-)

Exactly.

It's funny... I'll get 2 page emails from people asking me for opinions on which of their 2 ideas will work better...

I'm sure they spent a half hour writing the email, and I'll reply with only 2 words: test it.

BTW Dave... my Celtics are gonna blow the Heat out of the water this year...

For lottery picks.

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by davemiz

FYI... folks...

you dont see andy's style of videos as front end type stuff.

its more used for launch type videos.

and folks... hate to tell you geniuses... your opinions (or mine) really don't mean jack.

you're *supposed to be* direct response marketers...

i.e. you TEST and use what works best.

Look at the top offers online... they're all *very* similar... that should tell you something right there. :-)

I agree. Andy's style of videos are something that you can upgrade your video to if the offer and script are already converting well. Probably 99% of the time, my clients are still sticking with PP-style VSLs.

It may or may not have been clear in my posts but I was talking about Andy's methods for nailing the voice-over portion of a VSL. (His "audio sweetening" methods knocked hours off the time it takes me to edit each one of my own info-product videos.)

I've lost count on the number of videos I've seen where the audio is sub-par or really bad and that can kill response rates fast regardless of the video format or the voice-over script.

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Johnny12345 12 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Probably 99% of the time, my clients are still sticking with PP-style VSLs.

Of course, there is a VERY wide latitude in what people call "PowerPoint" videos.

Some PP videos are fully decked out with images, animation, music, charts, screen shots, and more. From my perspective, I don't really consider those "PowerPoint" style videos. (PowerPoint, in those cases, is just the tool being used).

The videos that I see so commonly -- and that I find EXTREMELY boring -- are the "plain text & simple voice-over" videos. The ones that leave you staring at little more than text on a background while you read along with the voice-over.

If those "plain text & simple voice-over" videos are the state-of-the-art in Internet marketing video, it would be very surprising... and disappointing.

John
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davemiz

12 years ago

people are scared to fail.

they're in the employee mindset... where if they do something and it doesnt work, then they can get fired etc.

this stuff, there is no failing, its just trying new stuff... most doesn't work, a few do, and a couple work real well.... but you gotta try it to know.

hard thing for many to accept coming from the employee mindset.

oh... and ya... celts? they're tanking this year... trying to get wiggins badly.

we hopefully will 3 peat.... IF everyone stays healthy, and beasly and oden can contribute.

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12 years ago

Originally Posted by davemiz

people are scared to fail.

they're in the employee mindset... where if they do something and it doesnt work, then they can get fired etc.

this stuff, there is no failing, its just trying new stuff... most doesn't work, a few do, and a couple work real well.... but you gotta try it to know.

hard thing for many to accept coming from the employee mindset.

oh... and ya... celts? they're tanking this year... trying to get wiggins badly.

we hopefully will 3 peat.... IF everyone stays healthy, and beasly and oden can contribute.

If there's one thing that helped me more than anything else over the years...

it's throwing out the fear of failure and just taking action on so much shit... you're bound to find out what works well, sooner or later.

When I first started, it was taking action on anything and everything... but as you're in the game longer, you start to see pattern develop... things that work.

So you do more of those... but you're still testing and trying all kinds of stuff. The faster you test and try, the faster you can roll out, or move on if it's failure.

Of course, having some money in the bank can certainly help alleviate that fear of failure... and allows you to try out a few things you maybe couldn't if you're broke.

Yeah, there's no one touching you guys this year IF you stay healthy.

... I honestly think you'll be better than previous years because of chemistry.

That's why I'm hoping the Sox pull it off tomorrow... I'm not putting much hope into the Pats and Celts....

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jay walters

12 years ago

VSLs still work from my humble opinion. Although it is a bit tricky to "test" beyond the
conversion and engagement figures. Recently did a series of them for a non-profit org.
It filled their events and kick started the funding for one of their initiatives.

Although the NDA prevents me from revealing any of the details, I can say that I only
used 2 tools:

1. Copy Mechanism
2. Animoto

Still it converted. Wouldn't recommend Animoto on a Clickbank VSL though.

Copy and VSLs still work… long as the copy works, and the conditions are ripe – meaning
you’re driving the right traffic , with the right volume to the VSL. We can’t blame it all
on the VSL.

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davemiz

12 years ago

mike... when you say audio sweetening... and editing... what do you mean?

it takes me HOURS to edit vsl audio... (I record each piece separately)

Thanks
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â€œJudge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.â€
― Dalai Lama XIV

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