Who wrote this winning VSL?

davemiz

12 years ago

its not a copywriter.... its written by one of the owners of the offer, kyle leon.

he also runs muscle maximizer.

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Cool Hand Luke

12 years ago

Originally Posted by davemiz

its not a copywriter.... its written by one of the owners of the offer, kyle leon.

he also runs muscle maximizer.

This. Apparently it's not enough to just be a jacked fitness model, he also happens to be an exceptional fitness copywriter. He also did his own copy for Customized Fat Loss, The Adonis Ratio, etc.

And no, he doesn't do copy for others (I know several who have asked him). Considering he overtook The Fat Loss Factor as CB's #1 product, I'm sure we can all understand why he doesn't need anyone else's money.

EDIT: I just remembered that while Kyle wrote the copy, the Venus Factor video itself was done by Seth Czerepak's video guy. I'd encourage you to contact Seth if you're interested in high-quality VSL services: http://www.warriorforum.com/members/sethczerepak.html

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sethczerepak

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

This. Apparently it's not enough to just be a jacked fitness model, he also happens to be an exceptional fitness copywriter. He also did his own copy for Customized Fat Loss, The Adonis Ratio, etc.

And no, he doesn't do copy for others (I know several who have asked him). Considering he overtook The Fat Loss Factor as CB's #1 product, I'm sure we can all understand why he doesn't need anyone else's money.

EDIT: I just remembered that while Kyle wrote the copy, the Venus Factor video itself was done by Seth Czerepak's video guy. I'd encourage you to contact Seth if you're interested in high-quality VSL services: View Profile: sethczerepak

Thanks for the mention Luke. I had a few one on ones with Kyle when he was writing the customized fat loss page and his video guy is a close friend. As far as I know, I`m the only person Kyle has coached with or taken copy tips from. But he does all his own copy. I won`t share details out of respect for a past client but I do know that he does damn well in men`s fitness and men`s dating and his secret is really simple. It`s not even a secret, nor is it unique to him. All the great writers use it, but I've only seen one clear cut explanation of it and frankly, I think it`s because it`s so simple, most people don`t even realize they know it.

For years, I didn`t even realize that I knew it. Then, Dan Kennedy wrote an addition to my copywriting system where he explained it better than anyone I`d ever heard. He called it "Dog Whistle Language." Halbert used it, so did Sugarman...lots of MLM cats use it, evangelical preachers, all those "scary good" writers and sales people. Anyway, can't give it away cause my clients pay good money for that info, but if anyone want`s to see a free example, pm me.

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DanSharp

12 years ago

Originally Posted by sethczerepak

For years, I didn`t even realize that I knew it. Then, Dan Kennedy wrote an addition to my copywriting system where he explained it better than anyone I`d ever heard. He called it "Dog Whistle Language."

I wonder if this is what he meant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_politics

Very useful...

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Mark Pescetti

12 years ago

I think it's interesting how the battle for the top of CB is between non-pros. But rather, business owners who became pros.

I suspect that as time goes by, this will be a lot more normal.

Mark

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DanSharp

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti

I think it's interesting how the battle for the top of CB is between non-pros. But rather, business owners who became pros.

I think it makes perfect sense. As a business owner you know your customers better than anyone, and you have every incentive to test and tweak!

Like me: in December I took two of my sales pages from 12% conversion to 25% and 50% (cold traffic!) when I tried something "just for the heck of it."

These are pages that have been up for months, in a specialized market, and it was a VERY risky change -- if this had been a client, no way would that kind of experimentation been possible.

(I won't share the details because I like to keep my niches private. But in essence, it was a "soup nazi" move: saying you can't afford the high-end version)

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Mark Pescetti

12 years ago

Originally Posted by DanSharp

Like me: in December I took two of my sales pages from 12% conversion to 25% and 50% (cold traffic!) when I tried something "just for the heck of it."

These are pages that have been up for months, in a specialized market, and it was a VERY risky change -- if this had been a client, no way would that kind of experimentation been possible.

Sure, Dan, I totally get it.

In my own copywriting biz, I've tested lots of different stuff. If I were in some other service industry and I paid a copywriter, I would have felt married to whatever he or she created. When I write for myself, I can spend two or three hours on a letter, slap it up, throw a little traffic at it... and decide what to do with it (if anything) based on the data.

I want to learn how to create Venus Factor-type VSL's (or even just stick with PP vids) myself this year and market my own stuff - without having to collaborate with other pros. That way, I can test out lots of different messages - without being on someone else's schedule.

We have to remember, the internet age is very, very young. We'll see more and more people learning how to do everything themselves. Will there still be tons of entrepreneurs outsourcing? Of course. Absolutely. More than enough for pros to make an incredible living with. But instead of competing with other top copywriters, we'll be going against other savvy business owners. We're seeing that already. It'll just get more pronounced.

Mark

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Steve Hill

12 years ago

Thanks for the replies. I had seen there were over 183,000 pages with the exact same snippet ("Kyle Leon's Best Vsl By Far") but also knew he was a fitness specialist.

Since fitness specialist/exceptionally skilled copywriter isn't a typical combination, that's why I was wondering.

It's a very effective script, and it has a lot going on under the surface. It's not surprising it has become #1.

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Sean Fry

12 years ago

Kyle is a natural born salesman. Wouldn't be surprised if he comes from a sales background. He isn't bound by the traditional limitations that a lot of direct marketers seem to have. He's very experimental. He was the first to use the VSL "style" seen on Muscle Maximer, where I'm sure many would've told him stuff like, "I don't know if it's gonna work, it's never been done before, etc." He seems to just do his own thing and doesn't afraid of anything.

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Cool Hand Luke

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Sean Fry

Kyle is a natural born salesman. Wouldn't be surprised if he comes from a sales background. He isn't bound by the traditional limitations that a lot of direct marketers seem to have. He's very experimental. He was the first to use the VSL "style" seen on Muscle Maximer, where I'm sure many would've told him stuff like, "I don't know if it's gonna work, it's never been done before, etc." He seems to just do his own thing and doesn't afraid of anything.

Yeah, I've never seen Adobe After Effects used like that in a VSL before the Venus Factor vid, but it was captivating, especially with such solid copy. It's one of the reasons I had my VA transcribe all of his different VSLs for study.

It's also pretty amazing that Kyle's managed to corner many of the different sub-niches of fitness with different products for each (Venus Factor for female fat loss, Customized Fat Loss for both male/female fat loss, Muscle Maximizer for serious weightlifters, Adonis Ratio for guys who primarily want to look more attractive, etc).

He basically did what Chris Haddad did with his Michael Fiore persona, completely taking over the relationships niche on CB with products that target different sub niches .

And honestly, considering how competitive weight loss/fitness is in general, I think Kyle's near monopoly of the Health/Fitness category is a particularly lofty and impressive achievement.

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sethczerepak

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Sean Fry

Kyle is a natural born salesman. Wouldn't be surprised if he comes from a sales background. He isn't bound by the traditional limitations that a lot of direct marketers seem to have. He's very experimental. He was the first to use the VSL "style" seen on Muscle Maximer, where I'm sure many would've told him stuff like, "I don't know if it's gonna work, it's never been done before, etc." He seems to just do his own thing and doesn't afraid of anything.

Salesmanship and innovation are only a small sliver of the picture. There are two other factors, both of which the top copywriters on this forum try to drill into people's heads on just about every thread:

1) He knows the " subculture" he`s marketing to. He speaks their most intimate language...you'd have to be one of them yourself or a damn savvy copywriter to even catch this....listen to the VSLs enough times and you`ll see what I mean.

2) He actually has a USP. Something most people on this forum either ignore or are misinformed about.

This is why we copywriters sound like broken records sometimes when we talk about knowing your customer and creating a strong positioning strategy. Here's a concrete example of someone who's making millions because hes done these two things damn well.

The moral, to anyone reading this, don't get too hung up on looking for magic persuasion formulas. Pic a niche you can communicate with on an intimate level, create a strong selling position and let the message develop from there.

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wrcato2

12 years ago

@DanSharp,

if this had been a client, no way would that kind of experimentation been possible.

My clients want me to change things up when sales slow a bit. That is why I always use a second sales page with the changes and test it. My last copy I wrote beat the owners control by 10% and his conversions were already at 12%

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DanSharp

12 years ago

Nice job!

Yeah, I know what you mean. In my example, this wasn't a case of "sales slowed, let's do something." I've been messing with these pages a few times a month since the launch, just seeing what would boost sales a little (and learning the hard way what makes conversion rates drop like a rock).

More like a sandbox to play in and build high converting sand castles, really...

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wrcato2

12 years ago

@DanSharp, Its nice to be able to try something that will increase your income by changing a little detail. It always amaze's me. It is like building high converting sand castles. One sneeze or sniffle can make it all come down or grow taller. The growth part is always the slowest.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 12 years ago

The hardest part in this racket is trying to convince the clients to do something different instead of just cloning what's working for someone else. And yes - the copy/presentation must resonate with the reader/viewer.

Great thread! Thanks to all contributing. Makes a change from the usual boring crap that gets posted here or the guys that are continually self-promoting (you know who you are).

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shawnlebrun

12 years ago

Back in 2003 through 2005 or so, I had one of the top selling products on Clickbank, it reached #5 in the fitness category and stayed there for a while.

Because it was making a significant cash flow, I hired 5 to 6 copywriters to try and improve the conversion rate.

Names everyone here would know.

The sales letter I wrote beat them all. and at that point, I had read maybe a book or two on copywriting.

The point is, often times the business owner/product creator IS the best person to write copy for the product.

They know their market, they know what their prospects want.

Not all biz owners have this ability, but those who do, are often times the best ones to write their copy.

I remember Craig Clemens, a few years back, told a similar story of a biz owner who had spent a ton of money hiring A-list copywriters... and with a simple template copywriting formula Craig had given him, this biz owner's copy beat all the A-listers.

If you have a good offer, and you know your market well enough to communicate that offer, you can do well.

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davemiz

12 years ago

good point about knowing the subculture and niche.

I hired a few copywriters to beat my control and unfortunately most of them bombed hard.... some of the copy was so bad, I refused to record it.... they just didnt "get" the niche... and you can tell from the copy.

the vsl copy is good on ALL kyles offers (one of his partners is a good friend of mine)...not giving out numbers, but I know they do VERY well.

venus hit #1 on CB within 90 days from launching... which is insane.

one thing to keep in mind is how important the niche is to the whole equation.

its fitness/weight loss/muscle.

adonis isn't as scalable as their venus offer... (womens weight loss)

we live in america the most vain society.

people are used to buying fitness, weight loss etc. stuff.

turn on the TV

you'll see weight loss, fitness stuff all over the tube.

Seth... now I gotta find out more about that copy stuff you were talking about

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sethczerepak

12 years ago

Originally Posted by davemiz

good point about knowing the subculture and niche.

I hired a few copywriters to beat my control and unfortunately most of them bombed hard.... some of the copy was so bad, I refused to record it.... they just didnt "get" the niche... and you can tell from the copy.

Exactly. That's why you can usually tell an inexperienced copywriter because they think they can write for 'anyone.' Most of them probably don't even realize that their copy sounds awkward to certain markets.

It's like a non-native English speaker who thinks that their English skills are fine, but the accent and even the slightest use of certain words a phrases tell you that English isn't their native tongue.

As much as we try to pride ourselves on not judging and being open-minded, we all do it. People who don't speak our language take an instant, subconscious hit to their credibility.

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MontelloMarketing

12 years ago

To say kyle isn't a copywriter would be just shy of true. He is one... a pretty darn good one at that. He's just not a hired copywriter.

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Steve Hill

12 years ago

Thanks to all that responded, as there have been some great points brought up in this thread. (The "Thanks" button has been flaky lately, often giving a blank box with an exclamation point, and nothing else.)

It makes perfect sense that if a product owner has really done the homework and knows the audience intimately, they are going to be in the best position to write the sales material... if they can. Kyle does it really well.

And if they pay to have it done, with anything short of a Vulcan mind meld they are depending on the copywriter to REALLY do their homework and ask all the right questions. Fortunately, the best do, or don't take the job unless they can.

And then the clients often feel married to the resulting copy, and don't feel they can test small changes... that's not good. That's a marketing opportunity right there.

Let's see, we've got Always Be Testing, multiple parallel sales pages, dog whistle language, competitive market domination, importance of original ideas, niche selection, niche focus... lots of good info.

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King Jeff 12 years ago

This VSL script follows Jon Bensons 3xvsl formula to the tee. SOLID swipe material! folks
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- Cool Hand Luke 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by King Jeff
  
  This VSL script follows Jon Bensons 3xvsl formula to the tee. SOLID swipe material! folks
  
  LOL no it doesn't. Not even close.
  
  In fact, this script script says and highlights a lot of things Jon specifically tells you NOT to do in his 3xvsl course... and the fact that it's blown away all of Jon's fitness VSLs on CB is a perfect testament to the fact that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
  
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Who wrote this winning VSL?

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