Could I make a deal with a copywriter?

11 years ago

In all seriousness, you need to ask yourself this:

WHY would a skilled copywriter be interested in working for you with no investment on your part?

WHAT is in it for them when you have literally no money in the game and aren't willing to make an upfront payment to prove you're serious about making your product succeed?

Also, you should realize that (in general) marketing is much more important than the quality of your product, and copywriters know this. There are a lot of superior products that end up failing because the other guy had a better marketing team behind him.

My best advice: Be willing to pay a fee upfront AND offer some sort of backend deal for the copywriter. Great copywriters don't work on spec, so if you want quality results, be prepared to open up your wallet right up front.

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06blawton

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

In all seriousness, you need to ask yourself this:

WHY would a skilled copywriter be interested in working for you with no investment on your part?

WHAT is in it for them when you have literally no money in the game and aren't willing to make an upfront payment to prove you're serious about making your product succeed?

Also, you should realize that (in general) marketing is much more important than the quality of your product, and copywriters know this. There are a lot of superior products that end up failing because the other guy had a better marketing team behind him.

My best advice: Be willing to pay a fee upfront AND offer some sort of backend deal for the copywriter. Great copywriters don't work on spec, so if you want quality results, be prepared to open up your wallet right up front.

Disagree. Long-term you won't get very far if your product is a load of shit. Word of mouth can go a long way to make or break your product.

I'd say marketing and product are equally important. Having the stand out product to begin with is like adding fuel to fire -- the fire being marketing. The better the product, the easier it is to market.

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Cool Hand Luke

11 years ago

Originally Posted by 06blawton

Disagree. Long-term you won't get very far if your product is a load of shit. Word of mouth can go a long way to make or break your product.

I'd say marketing and product are equally important. Having the stand out product to begin with is like adding fuel to fire -- the fire being marketing. The better the product, the easier it is to market.

I never said you could have a product that "is a load of shit", I said the marketing of said product is more important.

Don't believe me? Just look at Clickbank right now for proof. There are a lot of GREAT products with 0 gravity. No sales at all. Why? Because their competitors had better marketing.

Same thing in the physical product world. You can get all kinds of amazing things created for literally pennies on the dollar, but if your marketing isn't on point, none of it is going to matter.

And you know what? In both physical and digital formats, a great product is a lot easier to create than a solid marketing funnel.

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06blawton

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

I never said you could have a product that "is a load of shit", I said the marketing of said product is more important.

Don't believe me? Just look at Clickbank right now for proof. There are a lot of GREAT products with 0 gravity. No sales at all. Why? Because their competitors had better marketing.

Same thing in the physical product world. You can get all kinds of amazing things created for literally pennies on the dollar, but if your marketing isn't on point, none of it is going to matter.

And you know what? In both physical and digital formats, a great product is a lot easier to create than a solid marketing funnel.

Never said you did.

I'd say marketing and product quality are equal in importance.

Agreed that if your marketing isn't on point, nothing is going to matter. But the reverse is also true; shitty product + excellent marketing isn't going to survive for long. By shitty I mean shitty relative to competitors.

Also disagree that a great product is easier than great marketing. An average product (think well written but regurgitated info with no unique angle,) yes, but great is something that puts you heads and shoulders above the rest. It isn't easy.

Also can't think of many truly great things made for pennies on the dollar.

-- Ben Lawton

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Cool Hand Luke

11 years ago

Originally Posted by 06blawton

Also disagree that a great product is easier than great marketing. An average product (think well written but regurgitated info with no unique angle,) yes, but great is something that puts you heads and shoulders above the rest. It isn't easy.

We're definitely on different wavelengths here because I don't think a great product has to be a completely original one with totally unique info; it just has to have excellent, actionable info that genuinely helps people (which is what 99% of info products are). I think smart marketers don't try to re-invent the wheel; they sell people what they're ALREADY buying and/or what they want to buy.

One decent example: I know of one product on Clickbank that cost the product owner about $600 total to get made. He did it by getting the top 3 products in the niche and giving it to a writer on elance and saying "take the best info from these products and write one using the info". Simple enough, and the content is EXCELLENT. Genuinely helpful and immediately actionable.

Then, he did the smartest thing possible: he hired a copywriter with proven controls in the niche for $12.5k upfront + accounted royalties to write the VSL script and follow-up emails.

Guess what happened? Within a matter of about 6-7 weeks, the product obliterated everything else on CB in the niche, pulling in more than $500/day strictly from affiliate traffic, and this with just a simple powerpoint VSL, no launch whatsoever, and without any upsells or continuity. This product is currently one of the more popular products in CB's health/fitness category and the numbers it does now that the VSL has been re-done and the upsells have been added are astounding.

And why? What made the difference when the product is pretty much the same as the others in the niche (great stuff but not unique)?

Simple: the product owner was smart enough to invest in a proven copywriter.

Again, just my $0.02, but the marketing is world's more important than the product.

Originally Posted by 06blawton

Also can't think of many truly great things made for pennies on the dollar.

Have a look at Dollar Shave Club's business. Their razors are high-quality and since they're bought wholesale they cost the company literally pennies each. They sell sets of them for anywhere between $1-$9.

DSC is making a fortune, again, not because they have the superior product, but based on their excellent marketing.

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MikeHumphreys

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

One decent example: I know of one product on Clickbank that cost the product owner about $600 total to get made. He did it by getting the top 3 products in the niche and giving it to a writer on elance and saying "take the best info from these products and write one using the info". Simple enough, and the content is EXCELLENT. Genuinely helpful and immediately actionable.

Then, he did the smartest thing possible: he hired a copywriter with proven controls in the niche for $12.5k upfront + accounted royalties to write the VSL script and follow-up emails.

Guess what happened? Within a matter of about 6-7 weeks, the product obliterated everything else on CB in the niche, pulling in more than $500/day strictly from affiliate traffic, and this with just a simple powerpoint VSL, no launch whatsoever, and without any upsells or continuity. This product is currently one of the more popular products in CB's health/fitness category and the numbers it does now that the VSL has been re-done and the upsells have been added are astounding.

And why? What made the difference when the product is pretty much the same as the others in the niche (great stuff but not unique)?

Simple: the product owner was smart enough to invest in a proven copywriter.

Again, just my $0.02, but the marketing is world's more important than the product.

Have a look at Dollar Shave Club's business. Their razors are high-quality and since they're bought wholesale they cost the company literally pennies each. They sell sets of them for anywhere between $1-$9.

DSC is making a fortune, again, not because they have the superior product, but based on their excellent marketing.

Luke is spot-on. I can give a better example.

A few years ago, a client of mine (not a guru) hired a ghostwriter to write an IM info-product for him. Cost him $300.

Hired me to write the full marketing funnel for a lot more than the ghostwriter got paid.

When the product launched, he recouped his copywriting investment in less than a day and did almost six-figures in gross sales during the first week alone.

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06blawton

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Luke is spot-on. I can give a better example.

A few years ago, a client of mine (not a guru) hired a ghostwriter to write an IM info-product for him. Cost him $300.

Hired me to write the full marketing funnel for a lot more than the ghostwriter got paid.

When the product launched, he recouped his copywriting investment in less than a day and did almost six-figures in gross sales during the first week alone.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, fellas.

Suppose things would be pretty boring if people agreed on everything, right?

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MikeHumphreys

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

I never said you could have a product that "is a load of shit", I said the marketing of said product is more important.

Don't believe me? Just look at Clickbank right now for proof. There are a lot of GREAT products with 0 gravity. No sales at all. Why? Because their competitors had better marketing.

I agree. Not going to name names but there's been a few top-selling ClickBank products I've bought that I was underwhelmed by their product. And yet, they sell extremely well with very low refund rates because they have excellent marketing which include proven stick and risk reversal strategies.

Same thing in the physical product world. You can get all kinds of amazing things created for literally pennies on the dollar, but if your marketing isn't on point, none of it is going to matter.

Places like the Warrior For Hire section of WF, along with other cheap freelance sites can allow you to get stuff created quickly or cheaply. Graphics, editing, transcription, and lots of other tasks I frequently outsource so I can focus on creating & writing the marketing funnel.

And you know what? In both physical and digital formats, a great product is a lot easier to create than a solid marketing funnel.

Sites like Kunaki, CreateSpace, and Lulu let you create a physical product on demand. When an order comes in for one of my physical products, I don't have to worry about keeping inventory of that product or going to the post office to ship out the order. I simply log into the print on demand company, click a few buttons and they create & ship the product to my customer.

A number of my most popular non-IM info-products were created in a day or two. My personal record to date to create a product is 90 minutes, thirty minutes of which was creating an outline.

But when it comes to the marketing funnel that sells it... I spent at least a week writing the entire marketing funnel for every single product of mine. It's that important to nail down the marketing.

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06blawton

11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

I cared about copywriting after reading an interesting thread. I tried to learn how to be a copywriter.

However, I hate selling and this is not my style. So, I thought that perhaps I could find a copywriter instead of trying to learn something I dislike.

Do you believe that he/she would accept an agreement if I would prove that my products are excellent?

What kind of deal can I expect from a copywriter without spending money?

Or do I have to pay upfront?

Thank you in advance for your answers, and forgive me if this is a vague question.

You can't expect any kind of deal for no money. If you want a good return on your investment, you'll have to make the investment up-front.

It won't be cheap, but it'll be worth it. Most decent copywriters will charge you an fee, of which 50% is to be paid up front, plus a royalty payment as a % of sales.

As I said, you won't find any decent copywriters working for free, or for pennies for that matter.

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clever7

11 years ago

Thank you for your answers!

I read in a thread that many copywriters who are in the beginning of their career write copy for free to test their results.

This is why I had the idea to make a deal.

Now, about the products. I believe that if the products are excellent, their sales are guaranteed with the right promotion.

However, which promotion is the right one? Will it beat the competition?

Creating excellent products is very hard, but selling them is another difficult matter.

Those who have inferior products but are good marketers, are making more money than those who produce original and valuable products.

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Cool Hand Luke 11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

Those who have inferior products but are good marketers, are making more money than those who produce original and valuable products.

Bingo.

The fact that you know the value a good copywriter can bring to the table already places you way ahead of the pack.

Now you have a choice: you *could* try to find a new, unproven copywriter who might possibly work out a deal like this, and they could possibly come up with something solid. You might get lucky.

Honestly though, I think you'd be better off investing in a PROVEN copywriter who has already shown that they can successfully market to the particular niche they are in. This generally means a substantial fee up front and a percentage of sales. It won't be the cheapest option up front, but it could turn out to be one of the best investments you've ever made.

Just my $0.02, good luck with your project either way.
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Alex Cohen

11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

I cared about copywriting after reading an interesting thread. I tried to learn how to be a copywriter.

However, I hate selling and this is not my style. So, I thought that perhaps I could find a copywriter instead of trying to learn something I dislike.

Do you believe that he/she would accept an agreement if I would prove that my products are excellent?

What kind of deal can I expect from a copywriter without spending money?

Or do I have to pay upfront?

Thank you in advance for your answers, and forgive me if this is a vague question.

Contrary to what you've been told in this thread, some copywriters do enter into agreements with no money down upfront... in return for a percentage of gross sales.

When I was doing it, I accepted only projects that in my opinion offered true value. And I worked only with people I believed I could trust.

Alex

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Don Grace

11 years ago

A great deal for everyone normally involves an upfront fee as well as royalties.

Why the upfront fee?

Because a copywriter has no idea if you're going to follow through and run massive TARGETED traffic. A great letter doesn't mean crap without eyeballs on the offer.

Personally I have waived the fee a a few occasions, but that was because I got a lot of skin in the game and I knew the people I was working with had the budget and know how to run the traffic.

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joe golfer

11 years ago

clever7, Even if you have a good product and find a copywriter willing to work a deal, you still need to get eyeballs on your offer. You'll need to set a budget for traffic as well as copy.

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joe golfer

11 years ago

Here's another thought. Sometimes people who say they "hate selling" are marketing the wrong products.

Find a product you love (golf, guitar, weed, Hello Kitty, whatevs) and simply share your enthusiasm with others that are likely interested in the same thing. You'll have more fun, and your customers will feel your genuine interest, leading to more belief, buy-in, trust, sales, and profit.

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clever7

11 years ago

I care about promoting my own products.

I can pay upfront by offering my services in exchange for the copy and at the same time prove that my products are excellent. They are based on new scientific discoveries. This is not information you can find somewhere else.

Unfortunately, I cannot completely trust anyone online because many dishonest competitors are ready to bribe those who may work for me – like they did in the past. This is why I’m looking for a deal.

I’m selling these products online for years with zero refund rate. Most people don't believe me, but this is true.

I’m selling them, but not as much as I should.

Anyhow, I will make a plan.

Thank you for your answers!

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gjabiz

11 years ago

Are these products the ones in the sig file, on Dream Interpretation?

gjabiz

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clever7

11 years ago

Originally Posted by gjabiz

Are these products the ones in the sig file, on Dream Interpretation?

If you don't trust anyone online, how can they trust you?

The concern for many copywriters would be your editing.

Let me explain. Many, many years ago I met Mena Potts, one of the first Ph.D.'s in the country in dream interpretation. She had a set of six cassettes which she wanted to market. A friend, Joe Hammer, made the introduction.

She had GREAT products for her niche, all the credentials, but there was a big problem. She insisted on "gutting" the copy which was written by the copywriter and in fact rendered it useless.

In this market, you have professionals like Mena Potts and you have the hucksters and the marketers who already HAVE strong copy (albeit a lot of hype) which offends many of the professionals.

So, are you willing to compete with those in the market who are selling their products? Because the kind of copy needed to sell to this market needs to be full of the kind of fluff that most Ph.Ds hate to use.

Sure, great products are half of the equation, but copy that works has to be tailored to the market. The dream interpretation market is 80/20 with only 20% wanting or caring about professional studies and scientific evidence...while the 80%, the mass market BUYERS...want and PAY for quick and easy solutions.

IF the products you have at the Dream Interpretation site in the sig file are the products, then maybe a copywriter would simply want to become an affiliate with the idea he/she could write their own copy for the products...but, it could increase the refund rate dramatically.

Just curious really. I may know of a couple of copywriters who write in this market.

gjabiz

Answering your questions:

Yes, the products are related to dream interpretation; in a few words to the simplification of a complicated healing method.

I like the idea of having affiliates who would be copywriters and create their own sites promoting my products as if they were their own products. They make more money than me in each sale.

I hate the language used by copywriters, and this is why I said that this is not my style and I don't want to be a copywriter. However, copywriters like this language, and it is effective. So, they can comfortably use it in their own site.

I can help them verify the efficiency of this method in their own lives. I can do many other things, but I cannot discuss this matter here.

About trusting me, it is true that many people don't trust me because it is hard to be trusted, but many other people do thanks to my lessons, and thanks to word of mouth.

With this thread I only had the intention to see how copywriters work, and their flexibility.

When I will make a plan, I will privately contact a few copywriters and explain many other details.

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joe golfer

11 years ago

I can't help but hear Gary B's voice echoing down the halls of copywriting, "A gifted product is mightier than a gifted pen." It's a two-sided coin--great product and great marketing--you need both.

Great marketing can get them in the theater, but if the movie sucks nothing can stop the bad word of mouth.

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06blawton

11 years ago

Originally Posted by joe golfer

I can't help but hear Gary B's voice echoing down the halls of copywriting, "A gifted product is mightier than a gifted pen." It's a two-sided coin--great product and great marketing--you need both.

Great marketing can get them in the theater, but if the movie sucks nothing can stop the bad word of mouth.

Marketing Bullets | Bullet #19

This. Couldn't have said it better myself. They're both equally important.

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MikeHumphreys

11 years ago

Originally Posted by joe golfer

I can't help but hear Gary B's voice echoing down the halls of copywriting, "A gifted product is mightier than a gifted pen." It's a two-sided coin--great product and great marketing--you need both.

Great marketing can get them in the theater, but if the movie sucks nothing can stop the bad word of mouth.

Marketing Bullets | Bullet #19

Keep in mind, most of Gary's career was pre-internet... pre-ClickBank... pre-Warrior Forum.

Physical product creation was expensive. There was no print on demand services. If you had a book, then you had to pay to have 5,000 or 10,000 of them printed up front and store them somewhere.

There was no digital delivery. Everything had to shipped by mail or services like FedEx.

So refunds were extremely expensive to deal with because the company had to eat the shipping costs in both directions, was stuck with another copy of their product that hopefully wasn't dinged or damaged and could be resold, plus refunded the monies. If it was a physical newsletter or magazine, then a returned copy was pretty much unsellable except for the rare request for a back issue.

That's why people like Gary Halbert, Dan Kennedy, and Gary B. were spot-on about the importance of product quality, risk-reversal, money-back guarantees, etc. to keep refund rates below 30% when they stated it. Anything higher than that would have put most companies out of business at that time.

But the modern marketplaces, things have changed.

With digital products and delivery, there's no product fulfillment or delivery costs. It's not uncommon for a ClickBank product to have 20% or higher refund rates because ClickBank actively promotes their refund policy everywhere. Guru mega-launches have seen as high as 50% refund rates for their $2K offereings.

Why the higher refund rates?

For starters, you have folks who think it's perfectly okay to buy a digital product and immediately ask for a refund after they've downloaded it, simply to get the product for free.

In the past, these refund vultures would have had to go through the hassle of packaging up a physical product, shipping it back, and waiting for their refund check to arrive in the mail so the vast majority of them didn't choose to order.

Product quality is subjective.

What I think is a great product, someone will not. And unless you have extensive research or proof that your next product is exactly what everyone in your niche will buy, then it's not a good business decision to sink thousands of dollars into product development because if the product bombs then you have little recourse to recoup that money.

The better course of action is to launch a product... prove it's a winner (with a solid marketing funnel)... then work on version 2 of the product based on customer feedback on what else they want/need to be added.

In a lot of niches, the types of products consumers want to buy has changed.

In my experiences, most consumers aren't buying the "A to Z" course that covers every facet of a business, sport, or problem. They much more prefer more specialized products that address a specific problem or concern they have because they are faster to read/review/watch and easier to implement.

When I started my info-marketing business 2004, I spent 8 months writing a non-IM niche 230+ page marketing book. Today in the same target market, people aren't buying physical marketing books from me or any of my competitors.

These customers have told us by their buying habits that they would much rather have audio & video products that cover a specific part of marketing. So I do exactly that. Takes me a day or two to create the specialized product (average refund rate of 1%) and record in video or audio format than to sit down and write another book.

Here's an example from a well-known marketing guru, Dan Kennedy.

His early offerings were full bootcamps or seminars on cassette tape (and eventually CDs) and business kits in a box. Now look at his website. Each product is pretty tightly focused on a specific topic instead. His seminars aren't offered on video for sale... just attendees can get/buy them at the event itself.

Why? Because a lot of his new products are portions of his paid seminars that have been repackaged into individual products. A two day conference or bootcamp can easily be turned into 3-5 new products for his business simply by doing each presentation once, video recording the event, and packaging each presentation as its own product.

And that's my main rationale when I say that product quality is important but it's still far faster and easier to create a product than to create a top-quality solid marketing funnel.

It doesn't mean that you're churning out crappy products. It does mean you don't have to spend weeks or months to create a quality product anymore.

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sethczerepak

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

These customers have told us by their buying habits that they would much rather have audio & video products that cover a specific part of marketing. So I do exactly that. Takes me a day or two to create the specialized product (average refund rate of 1%) and record in video or audio format than to sit down and write another book.

That's a really interesting point. I was talking to a client just Thursday about specialization and, instead of starting with the product or service, starting with what the market wanted, then, creating marketing strategy for selling it to them the way they want to buy it. Then, create and refine the product around the marketing.

I'm seeing a lot of people stuck in product creation mode, painting themselves into corners. By the time they finish (if they do finish), they're so immersed in the product that they can't create a focused sales page. Others burn up their budget on product creation and have a few hundreds bucks, or nothing, to invest in creating the page.

I think it's wiser, especially with information products, to create the sales page and funnel first, then the product.

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The Copy Nazi Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sethczerepak

Others burn up their budget on product creation and have a few hundreds bucks, or nothing, to invest in creating the page.

That's what we see all the time isn't it. They bring us in at the last moment and then try to screw us on the copy fee. Dumb basterds (sic).
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Alex Cohen 11 years ago

Originally Posted by joe golfer

I can't help but hear Gary B's voice echoing down the halls of copywriting, "A gifted product is mightier than a gifted pen."

He's just saying the offer is more important than the copy. Part of the often repeated 40-40-20 theory.

Alex
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shawnlebrun

11 years ago

I have to agree with both Luke and Joe.

Close to 15 years ago, I just happened to get an email response back from Bill Phillips, who went on to become a multi-millionaire in the supplement/muscle building niche with EAS, Body for Life, Muscle Media, etc...

I was just starting out in fitness and bodybuilding, and I asked him the dumbest question ever... which was something like "Hey Bill, I want to make it big in the fitness industry like you... what do I do".

these days, I realize what a dumb, open ended question that was... back then I had no idea. At that time, I had no site, nothing.

But I actually got an email back from him a week or two later. Of course it could have been from one of his assistants or his butler, I have no idea.

The 2 things that it said that stuck out to me was "the money is in the marketing... and you can get rich with pen and paper."

Looking back at it now, I realize the pen and paper part was referring to selling books and other stuff that used leverage.

But knowing what I know these days... I'm also with what Joe mentioned... when Gary B. said a "gifted product is mightier".

So my thoughts?

why not have BOTH... a very good, if not great product, and great marketing.

Combined, you're more likely to beat out the competition.

You can have the best product... but without marketing it just sits there and dies a lonely existence.

But, if you have great marketing and a shitty product, you get a ton of refunds.

If you're looking at this from a business standpoint, you really only need to build a better mousetrap and then have great marketing.

I think they both should be a part of a long term, solid foundation.

Because if EITHER is lacking, you won't succeed.

Your competition will mostly likely have one or the other... good product or good marketing... but many do not have both.

Those who do, they tend to become the leaders and stick around for a while... because word of mouth and refunds will drive away bad products and poor marketing will cause good products to never get recognized.

These days, with all the competition... the smartest play is having a great product... which drives word of mouth, and having great marketing... which drives sales.

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Mark Pescetti

11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

However, I hate selling and this is not my style. So, I thought that perhaps I could find a copywriter instead of trying to learn something I dislike.

Great thread.

Aside from, "Does she have the marketing skills and/or budget to make my investment of time worth while?"

Another question that immediately pops into my head after reading the above quote is:

"Why would I want to work with someone who hates selling?"

At the end of the day...

She (or whomever it is) needs to be involved in the process. I'd be looking for the exact opposite attitude, "I love selling, because I want to get my product into the hands of people it massively helps... but I'm not good at it. I really believe in my product. It's totally original. I have a great story that will really connect with my avatar... I just need a partner to help me put the pieces together."

I find that a lot of judgement towards sales and copywriting is just a lack of understanding, awareness... knowledge. Once you learn that it's all about emotion; all about connecting... it's one of the most powerful tools ANYONE can have. Period.

I'd never want to work with someone, upfront payment or not, who didn't have the same perception.

My $17.03.

Mark

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sethczerepak

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti

Another question that immediately pops into my head after reading the above quote is:

"Why would I want to work with someone who hates selling?"

Good question.

Personally, I'd pass on a project with someone who hated selling. I'd also be shocked if someone who hated selling EVER became a successful entrepreneur.

You know why 1% of the population earns 97% of all the money being earned?

It's because most people hate to sell, but they love to buy.

Very few people love to sell.

It's not hard to figure that one out.

I think it would be wise to honestly ask yourself why you hate selling. If your product is good and will really help people, and if you really WANT to help people, why wouldn't you do everything you could to persuade them to buy?

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angiecolee 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sethczerepak

Personally, I'd pass on a project with someone who hated selling. I'd also be shocked if someone who hated selling EVER became a successful entrepreneur.

I had one of these wannabe entrepreneurs contract with me for a Kickstarter campaign. He had coast to coast PR and a fantastic product I was really excited to sell.

Only one problem: him. He was one of those that hated to sell. Every Draft I turned in, he said sounded like a carnival Barker. I told him that was nowhere near true because the excitement in the copy came from actual product features and what it could do for customers.

He was an engineer and made it clear that his style was, "here is the product, take it or leave it".

Once he said that, we parted ways. I couldn't do business with someone who sees selling a good product as some sort of evil machination.

I checked back at the end of the campaign. He failed by more than $50K.

I'm fairly confident I could have helped him succeed. But some people don't know how to get out of their own way.
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perryny

11 years ago

I don't think most people hate to sell.

I think most have a negative vision of what it means to "sell". They fear or are put off by their idea of the process (or who they think they will have to become) and probably fear the rejection they think they'll have to endure.

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shawnlebrun

11 years ago

Originally Posted by perryny

I don't think most people hate to sell.

I think most have a negative vision of what it means to "sell". They fear or are put off by their idea of the process (or who they think they will have to become) and probably fear the rejection they think they'll have to endure.

I agree with Rob.

I don't think people necessarily hate to sell... I just think they misunderstand what selling IS. And because they misunderstand... they "think" they hate selling.

They think of sales as some slick used-car salesman tactics that rely on high pressure or hype... and they think that ONE side has to win.

Those who know what TRUE selling is realizes it's usually a win-win situation... where the buyer gets what he/she wants and the seller as well.

True salesmanship is simply a matter of listening what the person wants... and then giving them that. It's solving the problems of the market.

It's finding what's keeping your prospects up at night, troubling them, and learning what they're motivated to do/have/achieve.

Then, it's simply a matter of trying to help them get that.

Nothing hucksterish about it, nothing high pressure or tricky, nothing where you're "winning" over the other person.

So yes, I think those folks who don't really know what selling IS... they hate to sell because of their negative connotations.

But if you can reframe selling as to what it really is... helping the customer get what he/she wants... I don't see why more people wouldn't want to do that.

I think if you ask any really successful company or sales person... they truly genuinely love to sell... because they know they're helping and not taking away.

Personally, I sold real estate when I was in my 20's... and even though I did okay, it personally didn't sit well with me because my definition of sales was skewed.

I thought I had to get folks to buy the first few houses I showed to them... regardless of whether it was their BEST FIT. I had the mindset of "just get a Yes at all costs.

Nowadays, I LOVE selling and have become so much more successful at it because I'm willing to bypass my own needs first, in order to help my customer get what they want.

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Mark Pescetti

11 years ago

Originally Posted by perryny

I don't think most people hate to sell.

I think most have a negative vision of what it means to "sell". They fear or are put off by their idea of the process (or who they think they will have to become) and probably fear the rejection they think they'll have to endure.

Originally Posted by shawnlebrun

I agree with Rob.

I don't think people necessarily hate to sell... I just think they misunderstand what selling IS. And because they misunderstand... they "think" they hate selling.

Not to sound like a jerk, but that's what I said (in my own words.)

Angie covered it.

People get in their own way, because of their misconception about advertising.

Of course...

It's not always a misconception.

Just like The Force, there's a good and dark side.

Clients (and in this case, potential JV partners) sometimes need coaching. That's why I integrated it into my business model.

That's also why I say in my contract, "Experienced marketers don't have any issues with 'selling.' It's important to understand that we are communicating the benefits of your product or service. It IS sales. If you're uncomfortable with coming across as being 'salesy,' I'm not the copywriter for you.
There's almost always some degree of hype in copy. That's just reality. Remember though, it's not hype, if the copy resonates with your audience. That's my job. That's why you're hiring me. It isn't my job to necessarily appease you, but instead, I relentlessly aim to appeal to your target prospect"

I'm sure every copywriter has had their fair share of clients who get in the way of launching an effective campaign.

There ARE lots of ways to avoid that from happening.

Maybe that's another thread.

Mark

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clever7

11 years ago

Originally Posted by shawnlebrun

I agree with Rob.

I don't think people necessarily hate to sell... I just think they misunderstand what selling IS. And because they misunderstand... they "think" they hate selling.

They think of sales as some slick used-car salesman tactics that rely on high pressure or hype... and they think that ONE side has to win.

Those who know what TRUE selling is realizes it's usually a win-win situation... where the buyer gets what he/she wants and the seller as well.

True salesmanship is simply a matter of listening what the person wants... and then giving them that. It's solving the problems of the market.

It's finding what's keeping your prospects up at night, troubling them, and learning what they're motivated to do/have/achieve.

Then, it's simply a matter of trying to help them get that.

Nothing hucksterish about it, nothing high pressure or tricky, nothing where you're "winning" over the other person.

So yes, I think those folks who don't really know what selling IS... they hate to sell because of their negative connotations.

But if you can reframe selling as to what it really is... helping the customer get what he/she wants... I don't see why more people wouldn't want to do that.

I think if you ask any really successful company or sales person... they truly genuinely love to sell... because they know they're helping and not taking away.

Personally, I sold real estate when I was in my 20's... and even though I did okay, it personally didn't sit well with me because my definition of sales was skewed.

I thought I had to get folks to buy the first few houses I showed to them... regardless of whether it was their BEST FIT. I had the mindset of "just get a Yes at all costs.

Nowadays, I LOVE selling and have become so much more successful at it because I'm willing to bypass my own needs first, in order to help my customer get what they want.

"Selling is theater" - this definition was given by a very good seller in one of his books.

People who like to be sincere don't feel comfortable with the methods used by most sellers.

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sethczerepak

11 years ago

Originally Posted by perryny

I don't think most people hate to sell.

I think most have a negative vision of what it means to "sell". They fear or are put off by their idea of the process (or who they think they will have to become) and probably fear the rejection they think they'll have to endure.

Damn, that's right...I'm in the copywriting forum lol.

Clarifying my use of the word "hate:" hating, disliking, fearing or being uncomfortable with due to ignorance about the true nature of a person, thing or idea.

I decided to use ONE word for the sake of brevity confident that the context would be sufficient for filling in the details and that the semantics police would be off duty since I wasn't posting critic request for a live sales page.

DISCLAIMER: upon recommendation from my attorneys, I'd like to add that the sarcasm in this post is not meant to be analyzed or even taken seriously.

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clever7

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti

Great thread.

Aside from, "Does she have the marketing skills and/or budget to make my investment of time worth while?"

Another question that immediately pops into my head after reading the above quote is:

"Why would I want to work with someone who hates selling?"

At the end of the day...

She (or whomever it is) needs to be involved in the process. I'd be looking for the exact opposite attitude, "I love selling, because I want to get my product into the hands of people it massively helps... but I'm not good at it. I really believe in my product. It's totally original. I have a great story that will really connect with my avatar... I just need a partner to help me put the pieces together."

I find that a lot of judgement towards sales and copywriting is just a lack of understanding, awareness... knowledge. Once you learn that it's all about emotion; all about connecting... it's one of the most powerful tools ANYONE can have. Period.

I'd never want to work with someone, upfront payment or not, who didn't have the same perception.

My $17.03.

Mark

I hate selling because it is based on psychological manipulation.

However, I know that everything is based on marketing.

I even had a store in the past, which was practically given to me by my relatives, who were in this business. I started hating selling even more when I saw what the sellers in my store did to sell our products. I was totally different. I managed to make sales because many customers liked my sincerity, and many other customers were totally indifferent to my opinion when I would tell them the truth. They insisted on buying the products they liked.

I believe that if you want to work as a copywriter you must love people who hate selling because they need your work. They don't feel comfortable when they try to persuade people to buy something. Therefore, they are your ideal customers.

When someone likes marketing, they can learn how to be copywriters themselves.

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sethczerepak

11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

I hate selling because it is based on psychological manipulation.

However, I know that everything is based on marketing.

I even had a store in the past, which was practically given to me by my relatives, who were in this business. I started hating selling even more when I saw what the sellers in my store did to sell our products. I was totally different. I managed to make sales because many customers liked my sincerity, and many other customers were totally indifferent to my opinion when I would tell them the truth. They insisted on buying the products they liked.

I believe that if you want to work as a copywriter you must love people who hate selling because they need your work. They don't feel comfortable when they try to persuade people to buy something. Therefore, they are your ideal customers.

When someone likes marketing, they can learn how to be copywriters themselves.

You need to read some of Zig Ziglar's books on selling my friend. You have a grossly distorted view of the craft and it's going to put a great big glass lid on your results.

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Mark Pescetti

11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

I believe that if you want to work as a copywriter you must love people who hate selling because they need your work. They don't feel comfortable when they try to persuade people to buy something. Therefore, they are your ideal customers.

You've got your wires crossed about selling.

I'm sure you're an awesome person, but I'm going to be completely blunt...

There's a reason you're here looking for a copywriter to work on spec:

You don't know how to connect with your ideal customer, in-print, and communicate value.

You hate selling - 'cause you suck at it.

That keeps you stuck.

And it also keeps the people you want to help at a safe distance.

The fact is...

Learning this stuff is the epitome of self-empowerment.

Because you'll be able to trigger REAL emotion and motivate or inspire people - beyond the ineffective ways you're currently trying.

Just like money isn't the root of all evil...

Selling isn't bad.

It always comes down to the person.

Mark

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Marvin Johnston 11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

I hate selling because it is based on psychological manipulation.

Did you vote in one of the last elections for someone?

Marvin
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- OutOfThisWord 11 years ago
  
  The dude probably got burned after buying a bunch of get rich schemes and figures his only way out is to get someone to do under others.
  
  His offer here is totally worthless, 'hey go get me some money and for your efforts I'll give you some of the money back.'
  
  How 'bout we cut out the middleman and keep all the money we drum up.
  
  As long as he is focused on money for nothing, he will continue to get psyco-manipulated and never have a biz, but only a dream.
  
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joe golfer

11 years ago

One copywriter said it this way: "Have you ever gone into a shop and the owner or salesperson is super knowledgeable and enthusiastic? They don't slap items on the counter like some retail salespeople. They bring out each item like they made it themselves, holding it carefully. They love the merchandise and can tell you how it was made, where it was made and why it is so valuable or different.

You are in the hands of a pro. They are transferring their knowledge and enthusiasm like a mind meld.

Are you being sold to? Of course. But it is so well done, so real, so professional, so much fun, so enjoyable, before you know it you are standing out in the midday sunshine with a watch you didn't really need.

Sell them like that."

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Raymond Duke

11 years ago

The biggest problem you're going to have with selling your product is getting over your own limiting beliefs.

Until you stop using excuses like...

- I hate selling and this is not my style
- I hate the language used by copywriters (you hate English?)
- I hate selling because it's based on psychological manipulation.
- People who like to be sincere don't feel comfortable with the methods used by most sellers.

...you're going to continue to limit the potential of your product.

All of those four things are bullshit. They are things you're telling yourself because you lack confidence and you fear failure.

Let's go through your excuses...

The problem here is you think selling is different from everyday communication. Every single ******* thought you have is a sale. When you wake up in the morning, you sell yourself on getting out of bed. You give yourself a reason why you should get up and do something. This is selling.

Selling is psychological and it is manipulative...however, if you have good reasons why someone should use your product, then it's okay to use psychology and manipulation IF IT HELPS THEM BYPASS THEIR LIMITING BELIEFS.

If you have a way to stop people from suffering, why would you not want to help them?

The fact that you are uncomfortable with selling your own product tells me you have ZERO confidence in the product's value. Selling is about getting the right solution into the hands of the people who have a particular problem. If you had a great product, selling it should be something you do WITH A PASSION.

Don't let pushy sales ruin your perception of what selling is. Furthermore, don't position yourself as "above" the rest of us copywriters here...as if you are up on some pedestal with your nonpersuasive "do good" ways...and us copywriters are a bunch of blood sucking vultures waiting for you to give us work.

If you want to hire someone, respect the work that you are too scared and lack the confidence to do yourself.

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sethczerepak

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Raymond Duke

The biggest problem you're going to have with selling your product is getting over your own limiting beliefs.

Until you stop using excuses like...

- I hate selling and this is not my style
- I hate the language used by copywriters (you hate English?)
- I hate selling because it's based on psychological manipulation.
- People who like to be sincere don't feel comfortable with the methods used by most sellers.

...you're going to continue to limit the potential of your product.

All of those four things are bullshit. They are things you're telling yourself because you lack confidence and you fear failure.

Let's go through your excuses...

The problem here is you think selling is different from everyday communication. Every single ******* thought you have is a sale. When you wake up in the morning, you sell yourself on getting out of bed. You give yourself a reason why you should get up and do something. This is selling.

Selling is psychological and it is manipulative...however, if you have good reasons why someone should use your product, then it's okay to use psychology and manipulation IF IT HELPS THEM BYPASS THEIR LIMITING BELIEFS.

If you have a way to stop people from suffering, why would you not want to help them?

The fact that you are uncomfortable with selling your own product tells me you have ZERO confidence in the product's value. Selling is about getting the right solution into the hands of the people who have a particular problem. If you had a great product, selling it should be something you do WITH A PASSION.

Don't let pushy sales ruin your perception of what selling is. Furthermore, don't position yourself as "above" the rest of us copywriters here...as if you are up on some pedestal with your nonpersuasive "do good" ways...and us copywriters are a bunch of blood sucking vultures waiting for you to give us work.

If you want to hire someone, respect the work that you are too scared and lack the confidence to do yourself.

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clever7

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Raymond Duke

The biggest problem you're going to have with selling your product is getting over your own limiting beliefs.

Until you stop using excuses like...

- I hate selling and this is not my style
- I hate the language used by copywriters (you hate English?)
- I hate selling because it's based on psychological manipulation.
- People who like to be sincere don't feel comfortable with the methods used by most sellers.

...you're going to continue to limit the potential of your product.

All of those four things are bullshit. They are things you're telling yourself because you lack confidence and you fear failure.

Let's go through your excuses...

The problem here is you think selling is different from everyday communication. Every single ******* thought you have is a sale. When you wake up in the morning, you sell yourself on getting out of bed. You give yourself a reason why you should get up and do something. This is selling.

Selling is psychological and it is manipulative...however, if you have good reasons why someone should use your product, then it's okay to use psychology and manipulation IF IT HELPS THEM BYPASS THEIR LIMITING BELIEFS.

If you have a way to stop people from suffering, why would you not want to help them?

The fact that you are uncomfortable with selling your own product tells me you have ZERO confidence in the product's value. Selling is about getting the right solution into the hands of the people who have a particular problem. If you had a great product, selling it should be something you do WITH A PASSION.

Don't let pushy sales ruin your perception of what selling is. Furthermore, don't position yourself as "above" the rest of us copywriters here...as if you are up on some pedestal with your nonpersuasive "do good" ways...and us copywriters are a bunch of blood sucking vultures waiting for you to give us work.

If you want to hire someone, respect the work that you are too scared and lack the confidence to do yourself.

I had no intention to offend anyone. I had an idea, so I decided to make a research.

I believe you didn't have the intention to offend me, the same way. We are simply discussing and exchanging thoughts.

However, I have to say that your assumptions clearly indicate that you ignore the true meaning of the word 'manipulation'.

Never mind, I'm not here to give lessons to anyone.

I only wanted to see what I could expect from a copywriter.

Thank you for telling me your opinion.

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BrianMcLeod

11 years ago

I hate selling because it is based on psychological manipulation.

So is trying to get a rookie copywriter to write on spec for you.

What now?

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clever7 11 years ago

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

So is trying to get a rookie copywriter to write on spec for you.

What now?

I agree with this point of view.
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clever7

11 years ago

I really have no intention to be against marketing, selling, or whatever. I’m simply thinking and trying to find solutions. I couldn't imagine that this thread would be so long and it would follow a different route, but since I started it, I feel I have the obligation to explain my thoughts.

The difference between honesty and dishonesty on selling is the fact that when you are sincere you simply show the pros and cons, and then you let the buyer decide if the product you are describing is good or not for him/her.

This is not what sellers (copywriters) do.

They force you to buy their products, promising unreal things. They push you to make a buying decision however they can. They tell you that if you will buy product X you will become a superman or superwoman and conquer the world.

They don't let you calmly analyze the product and decide if it is really good for you, after telling you the truth about it.

They hide its negative aspects and numerous complications you should know before buying.

They tell you i.e. that:

“You only have to be able to click your mouse to make money online”

Is this possible?...

Copywriters are successful because people like to believe in lies. They like to believe that everything is simple and that they will become super powerful thanks to product X.

If you will simply tell them the truth, they won't buy because they are used with beautiful lies.

They will conclude that the product promoted by the copywriter is better and this is why he is saying that everything is ‘so simple’ while you are ‘overcomplicating’ everything - because you are telling them the truth as it is.

This is why mediocre products are sold as if they were superior, while superior products remain ignored because they are not promoted with the same ‘successful techniques’ used by excellent marketers.

These successful techniques are based on psychological manipulation, what means that they are based on lies or distortions of the truth that have the intention to influence the buyer’s behavior.

These techniques are used independently of the product’s quality. In other words, they don't define the product.

Even if the product is basically bad (but ‘seems’ to be good) they will sell it.

This is a sad situation. So, I was thinking that perhaps there was a way to be honest and at the same time convince the ignorant public that they can trust a certain product without being manipulative.

I have many ideas, but I don't know if I should put them into practice. I’m making a research.

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Chriswrighto

11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

The difference between honesty and dishonesty on selling is the fact that when you are sincere you simply show the pros and cons, and then you let the buyer decide if the product you are describing is good or not for him/her.
This is not what sellers (copywriters) do.

They force you to buy their products, promising unreal things. They push you to make a buying decision however they can. They tell you that if you will buy product X you will become a superman or superwoman and conquer the world.

Pal, this is your opinion.

Here's another take on things...

If you have a product that can truly help someone, isn't it your duty to get it into their hands so they can benefit from it?

If you know your product can change someones life, and you're not doing everything you can to enable that to happen, are you the bad person?

People have their own reasons for not buying.

Maybe they've been scammed before/saving for a new toy/whatever.

Why not help them break through the reason(s) so they can benefit?

As you say, SOME copywriters promise unreal things, but that doesn't apply for all of us. Most copywriters genuinely care about helping people.

You're drawing the line at what you think is honourable selling - and that's just showing the pros and cons. Hey man... is that too much? Should you just let them see a picture of it? My point is that this your limiting belief.

They don't let you calmly analyze the product and decide if it is really good for you, after telling you the truth about it.

Most copywriters tell the complete truth about a product.

We'll tell you what's wrong with it... e.g. not a push-button system, etc.

But 90% of people won't take action on it. So they won't succeed. Is that the copywriters fault? Hell no.

Also...

Nearly every product around offers a refund guarantee, so a customer can decide if it's good for them or not.

To the rest of your post:

When I write copy, I won't lie. I will tell the customer up-front what it can do and why it will benefit them.

I'll also mention the downsides - which are only downsides if you look at them that way.

Here's an example (courtesy of a copywriter on this forum):

I'm young and baby faced.

Who the hell would hire me over the other copywriters?

But if I told you that my youth makes me HUNGRY to succeed, that I spend 2 hours every morning reading books on persuasion, and the rest of my day is spent writing copy - would that sound better?

It's just framing, my friend.

The same goes for a product - it's not a push button, they don't exist, but all you need to do is spend half hour Monday-Friday on this system and you can be £200 better off every week.

"Corrr, just half hour? Okay!" 100 buy the product, 1 person uses it, the other 99 forget.

Frankly...

There's not many "new" products around.

A sales letter is the only way to distinguish your product from the 50 other that are similar to yours (most of the time.)

It's marketing versus marketing.

If you believe your product can genuinely help someone, then you should have no problem using persuasion techniques to get it in their hands.

Chris

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gjabiz

11 years ago

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by gjabiz

You ride in on the high horse of HONESTY and telling the truth while selling one of the most fraudulent products out there. Dream Interpretation is just that...an INTERPRETATION. It is like astrology, palm reading, tea leaf reading, phrenology and the psychic adviser of 1-900 numbers.

No mate... you're wrong. It's "scientific" - don't you see?

Pass the taramasalata will you.

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clever7

11 years ago

Originally Posted by gjabiz

YOU are exactly the person you describe that you have so much disdain for...and I'm going to tell you why, but first, a story.

This with GOT references.

A man walks into a harbor bar in Kings Landing. Shouts out, "I hate sailors. Sailors are pirates, smugglers and thieves, the scum of Westeros. I hate what you do, who you are and everything about you. OH, can one of you give me safe passage to Braavos and uh, do it for FREE? And a hamburger would be nice too, for which, I will gladly pay you on Tuesday."

Next thing you see are Wimpy's pants flying high off the Pirate's ship.

Dream Interpretation is NOT a science, in fact, it is one of the biggest LIES and scams out there. To say there is science involved is a much bigger lie than any copywriter would even attempt to say.

You ride in on the high horse of HONESTY and telling the truth while selling one of the most fraudulent products out there. Dream Interpretation is just that...an INTERPRETATION. It is like astrology, palm reading, tea leaf reading, phrenology and the psychic adviser of 1-900 numbers.

You are a believer because it worked for you. But, maybe Scientology or astrology would have done the trick...or Primal Screaming, or EST, The Secret, Tarot...all faith based and not an ounce of Science to back them up.

I personally don't care, I've written for most of these and other Occult and Metaphysical products as well as Christian products.

But, when someone from this world calls copywriters liars...well, take a long look in the mirror. Hypocrisy is the fire which boils my blood.

gjabiz

PS. There is no greater ignorance demonstrated by the masses than the spending of hard earned money on the stuff like you sell (or are trying to sell).

I forgive your offensive comments because you ignore the real importance of dreams and how we can be sure that we are really translating their meaning.

I had no intention to talk about my work because this is not a topic we should discuss here.

I was interested on understanding the way that copywriters work, but this thread became something else.

You shouldn't be offended by my definition of the word 'manipulation'. This is the vision I have.

On the other hand, I could be your potential customer. I'm making questions because I'm interested on finding a copywriter. An intelligent and sensitive copywriter.

Well, this thread helped me understand the copywriters I should avoid.

Thank you for your contribution.

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gjabiz

11 years ago

[DELETED]

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clever7

11 years ago

Originally Posted by gjabiz

you ignore the real importance of copywriting and how we can be of great service to those with an HONEST intention and a desire to share MEANINGFUL and truthful work which will help people.

You brought up the topic of honesty and truth, so your work is a "fair game" topic for discussion.

You certainly found out how some copywriters work and the thread became something else because you made it so.

I take no offense to your definition of the word ‘manipulation’. Your "vision" has nothing to do with a word's meaning and I don't see negative connotations of the word. It is what it is and manipulation is a fact of life.

As an intelligent and sensitive copywriter, I see the potential client as what they probably will be, and I avoid quicksand at all costs.

This thread helped me understand the CLIENTS...

I WILL avoid.

Thank you for your contribution to a healthy discussion about the perception of copywriters from the viewpoint of the educated and intelligent ignorant.

The end.

gjabiz

If I wasn’t ignorant, I wouldn’t make questions.

I believe that now you understood something you should have in mind from the beginning: I ignore many things about copywriting.

My opinion is not the opinion of an expert in this field.

.................................................. ......

I was thinking about our discussion here now that I had time to care about this matter, and I remembered a free ebook about copywriting that was indicated in this section of the forum:

http://myws.sitesell.com/MYWS!.pdf

It is one of the best books I ever read. This book made me care about copywriting.

So, I really had a good intention when I decided to learn if I could make a deal with a copywriter and test the waters.

There are many positive aspects on copywriting. This book helped me write better headlines for my articles.

I saw that I could learn many interesting things if I knew the most important copywriting techniques, but this is such a boring topic for me that I cannot study it as much as necessary, I don't have time for it, etc.

This is why I had the brilliant idea to find a copywriter who would write the copy for me according to my style if possible, or who would create his own website as an affiliate, so I wouldn’t have any responsibility for the way he would promote my products. In this case I could be considered to be a culprit if the copy would be based on manipulation, but there are no reasons for manipulation when the products are really good.

Can I expect cooperation from a copywriter (if he/she will write the copy for my own website) or will he tell me that he is the expert and I must do everything his way if I want to make sales?

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Tim R

11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

...but there are no reasons for manipulation when the products are really good.

This is what people have been telling you in this thread, but you don't seem to understand it. You seem to have the idea that copywriters are evil people who are taking advantage of others.

Your comments are offensive to everyone here because you are generalizing when you assume all copywriters are manipulative with bad intentions. You have no idea how many jobs have been turned down by the members here because they didn't think the product would help people.

It's the copywriter's job to sell the product or service. They have nothing to do with the quality of the product. They didn't create it. It sounds like you want a copywriter to point out all the negatives in your product. If that's the case, improve your product.

Like others have said, if you truly believed in what you were selling and knew for a fact it would help people, you would be shouting about it from the rooftops. Instead, you seem more inclined to stand in a back alley and whisper it at the few people who walk past.

The faults we see in other people are really those we see in ourselves. So all of the dishonesty and manipulation etc. you accuse copywriters of you're actually guilty of yourself. You don't believe in your product and it shows.

From your first post:

Originally Posted by clever7

Do you believe that he/she would accept an agreement if I would prove that my products are excellent?

What is this if not an attempt to sell someone on doing work for you for free? You're attempting to manipulate someone to do what you want them to do, with no guarantee of reward for their work. How is this any different than the 'evil copywriters' you speak of? You're trying to prove your product is excellent so someone will write your copy. But you take issue with copywriters proving a product is excellent so people will buy it? You're so full of contradictions here but you can't even see it.

Originally Posted by clever7

Can I expect cooperation from a copywriter (if he/she will write the copy for my own website) or will he tell me that he is the expert and I must do everything his way if I want to make sales?

Cooperation works both ways. It sounds more like you want to tell someone exactly what to do without having to pay them.

Here's the thing. Why would a copywriter want to work with you on this? You insist on having the copy written your way, while you admittedly know nothing about copywriting. So you're asking for someone to do their job with both hands tied behind their back.

You're asking somebody to invest their time in a venture that they know will be unlikely to succeed, and in return you'll only pay them once it's successful. Do you see why what you're asking is so ludicrous? Why would anybody let themselves get taken advantage of like that, when there are so many clients who will properly compensate them for their work?

And to top it all off, when your project bombs (and it will) you'll likely turn around and blame the copywriter for the failure.

If you want a sales page that simply says 'Here's what I've got, here's the pros and here's the cons, buy it or don't buy it', why don't you just write that yourself?

Oh, that's right. You want to make money.

You don't care if there are affiliates doing all the dirty work for you and manipulating your customers into buying your product. As long as you don't appear to be getting your hands dirty yourself.

That's what it all boils down to. Your holier-than-thou attitude is all just a front. You don't care if your customers are getting deceived; you just want to make sure they don't find out you're the once deceiving them.

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Petar P

11 years ago

You say that you care about people.

You say that you want to help them.

You can lie to yourself as much as you want.

But your thought patterns don't lie. You are too self-centered.

Here are some of your posts. Notice the use of "I" "me" and "my"

Originally Posted by clever7

I cared about copywriting after reading an interesting thread. I tried to learn how to be a copywriter.

However, I hate selling and this is not my style. So, I thought that perhaps I could find a copywriter instead of trying to learn something I dislike.

Do you believe that he/she would accept an agreement if I would prove that my products are excellent?

What kind of deal can I expect from a copywriter without spending money?

Or do I have to pay upfront?

Thank you in advance for your answers, and forgive me if this is a vague question.

Originally Posted by clever7

I care about promoting my own products.

I can pay upfront by offering my services in exchange for the copy and at the same time prove that my products are excellent. They are based on new scientific discoveries. This is not information you can find somewhere else.

Unfortunately, I cannot completely trust anyone online because many dishonest competitors are ready to bribe those who may work for me - like they did in the past. This is why I'm looking for a deal.

I'm selling these products online for years with zero refund rate. Most people don't believe me, but this is true.

I'm selling them, but not as much as I should.

Anyhow, I will make a plan.

Thank you for your answers!

Originally Posted by clever7

Answering your questions:

Yes, the products are related to dream interpretation; in a few words to the simplification of a complicated healing method.

I like the idea of having affiliates who would be copywriters and create their own sites promoting my products as if they were their own products. They make more money than me in each sale.

I hate the language used by copywriters, and this is why I said that this is not my style and I don't want to be a copywriter. However, copywriters like this language, and it is effective. So, they can comfortably use it in their own site.

I can help them verify the efficiency of this method in their own lives. I can do many other things, but I cannot discuss this matter here.

About trusting me, it is true that many people don't trust me because it is hard to be trusted, but many other people do thanks to my lessons, and thanks to word of mouth.

With this thread I only had the intention to see how copywriters work, and their flexibility.

When I will make a plan, I will privately contact a few copywriters and explain many other details.

Originally Posted by clever7

I had no intention to offend anyone. I had an idea, so I decided to make a research.

I believe you didn't have the intention to offend me, the same way. We are simply discussing and exchanging thoughts.

However, I have to say that your assumptions clearly indicate that you ignore the true meaning of the word 'manipulation'.

Never mind, I'm not here to give lessons to anyone.

I only wanted to see what I could expect from a copywriter.

Thank you for telling me your opinion.

Originally Posted by clever7

If I wasn't ignorant, I wouldn't make questions.

I believe that now you understood something you should have in mind from the beginning: I ignore many things about copywriting.

My opinion is not the opinion of an expert in this field.

.................................................. ......

I was thinking about our discussion here now that I had time to care about this matter, and I remembered a free ebook about copywriting that was indicated in this section of the forum:

http://myws.sitesell.com/MYWS!.pdf

It is one of the best books I ever read. This book made me care about copywriting.

So, I really had a good intention when I decided to learn if I could make a deal with a copywriter and test the waters.

There are many positive aspects on copywriting. This book helped me write better headlines for my articles.

I saw that I could learn many interesting things if I knew the most important copywriting techniques, but this is such a boring topic for me that I cannot study it as much as necessary, I don't have time for it, etc.

This is why I had the brilliant idea to find a copywriter who would write the copy for me according to my style if possible, or who would create his own website as an affiliate, so I wouldn't have any responsibility for the way he would promote my products. In this case I could be considered to be a culprit if the copy would be based on manipulation, but there are no reasons for manipulation when the products are really good.

Can I expect cooperation from a copywriter (if he/she will write the copy for my own website) or will he tell me that he is the expert and I must do everything his way if I want to make sales?

Me, Me, Me ... I want, I care...My opinion, My wishes , My wants, My needs...

Sorry to break it down for you, but...

No one cares about you and what do you want in life.

Go back and reread the replies you got. Read them carefully. Notice how everyone is focused on helping you. Even though you came here, guns blazing, and said copywriters are liars and manipulators.

You are the only one who is self-centered.

And you are not cranked out to be an entrepreneur

...until you change your mindset

And the fastest way to change your mindset is to learn copywriting. Or face-to-face selling.

Good Luck,

Petar

P.S. Did you read this reply closely? Did you notice that it was about you and not about me? You did? Good.

Now reread this thread again, pause and reflect. Think about it. Meditate on it.

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JGD

11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

I really have no intention to be against marketing, selling, or whatever. I'm simply thinking and trying to find solutions. I couldn't imagine that this thread would be so long and it would follow a different route, but since I started it, I feel I have the obligation to explain my thoughts.

The difference between honesty and dishonesty on selling is the fact that when you are sincere you simply show the pros and cons, and then you let the buyer decide if the product you are describing is good or not for him/her.

This is not what sellers (copywriters) do.

They force you to buy their products, promising unreal things. They push you to make a buying decision however they can. They tell you that if you will buy product X you will become a superman or superwoman and conquer the world.

They don't let you calmly analyze the product and decide if it is really good for you, after telling you the truth about it.

They hide its negative aspects and numerous complications you should know before buying.

They tell you i.e. that:

"You only have to be able to click your mouse to make money online"

Is this possible?...

Copywriters are successful because people like to believe in lies. They like to believe that everything is simple and that they will become super powerful thanks to product X.

If you will simply tell them the truth, they won't buy because they are used with beautiful lies.

They will conclude that the product promoted by the copywriter is better and this is why he is saying that everything is 'so simple' while you are 'overcomplicating' everything - because you are telling them the truth as it is.

This is why mediocre products are sold as if they were superior, while superior products remain ignored because they are not promoted with the same 'successful techniques' used by excellent marketers.

These successful techniques are based on psychological manipulation, what means that they are based on lies or distortions of the truth that have the intention to influence the buyer's behavior.

These techniques are used independently of the product's quality. In other words, they don't define the product.

Even if the product is basically bad (but 'seems' to be good) they will sell it.

This is a sad situation. So, I was thinking that perhaps there was a way to be honest and at the same time convince the ignorant public that they can trust a certain product without being manipulative.

I have many ideas, but I don't know if I should put them into practice. I'm making a research.

Joe Sugarman or any world-class copywriter would disagree with this.

But, a scam artist would not. You're talking about scam artists here, right?

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Mark Pescetti

11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

They force you to buy their products, promising unreal things. They push you to make a buying decision however they can. They tell you that if you will buy product X you will become a superman or superwoman and conquer the world.

This is a ridiculous generalization.

I'll use the money analogy again...

Does money MAKE you spend it a certain way (for good or bad?)

Nope.

Whomever holds the cash... makes the decisions.

Can people with integrity use the persuasive powers of copy for good?

Do I REALLY need to answer that?

Come on now.

By the way...

I frickin' love bringing up and overcome objections (so prospects are fully informed.)

And one more thing...

People need to take responsibility for their buying decisions.

Response... Ability.

It's not your job to police sales.

It's your response-ability to help people - IF, IF, IF they actually benefit from what you offer... which sounds like it's in debate.

I'm out.

Mark

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BrianMcLeod

11 years ago

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angiecolee

11 years ago

I'm still just stuck on the audacity of coming in here and essentially calling all of us liars.

I can see Wimpy's shorts flapping in the breeze...

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clever7

11 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

I'm still just stuck on the audacity of coming in here and essentially calling all of us liars.

I can see Wimpy's shorts flapping in the breeze...

I had no intention to talk about my opinion. I wanted to find out something else with this thread, but I'm forced to answer questions and reply based on what everyone is saying. The discussion is not following my program.

I'm sorry if I seemed to accuse all copywriters because their copy is based on lies and distortions of the truth.

Of course they also say the truth in many points, but the psychological manipulation is part of the copy.

You shouldn't be offended by my point of view. Politicians, lawyers, and many other people use the same methods used by copywriters.

Lies are part of the routine in our world.

This is not a shocking revelation.

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MikeHumphreys

11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

I had no intention to talk about my opinion. I wanted to find out something else with this thread, but I'm forced to answer questions and reply based on what everyone is saying. The discussion is not following my program.

I'm sorry if I seemed to accuse all copywriters because their copy is based on lies and distortions of the truth.

Of course they also say the truth in many points, but the psychological manipulation is part of the copy.

You shouldn't be offended by my point of view. Politicians, lawyers, and many other people use the same methods used by copywriters.

Lies are part of the routine in our world.

This is not a shocking revelation.

In the U.S., there's a government agency called the FTC which acts as a consumer watchdog. Any product which is ripping off the general public is subject to their legal actions which include massive fines and even jail time.

The FTC holds all parties accountable that are involved in a consumer rip-off.

That isn't just the product owner or website owner. It also includes graphic designers, programmers, product creators, and even copywriters.

And being located outside of the U.S. doesn't matter. The FTC is backed by millions/billions of funding and they have no problem with pursuing things anywhere in the world.

The vast majority of copywriters know this and have no desire to get hit with massive fines and/or jail time on behalf of any client.

That's why the vast majority of copywriters want to see the product they're writing copy for before they start writing copy for it. It doesn't just make it easier to write the copy... it legally protects the copywriter too because in the event of legal trouble, they can show the product they were given to write the copy about.

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NateJasper

11 years ago

I think the OP should get out of the sales business and become an accountant.

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ThomasOMalley

11 years ago

Doing any kind of copywriting for this guy is a losing proposition.

I hope no one is that desperate.

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jjosephs

11 years ago

Clever7, there are alot of no-value schmucks in marketing. That's not a big revelation. But fortunately many of them flop (Politicians excepted).

I'm a tough customer and I used to share your jaded attitude.

Try to see marketing like cosmetics. Either enhancing the client's natural beauty, or creating a false beauty.

Be the former and you can't go wrong.

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clever7

11 years ago

Originally Posted by jjosephs

Clever7, there are alot of no-value schmucks in marketing. That's not a big revelation. But fortunately many of them flop (Politicians excepted).

I'm a tough customer and I used to share your jaded attitude.

Try to see marketing like cosmetics. Either enhancing the client's natural beauty, or creating a false beauty.

Be the former and you can't go wrong.

I agree with you. We can organize everything based on decent criteria.

If I was absolute sure that there was no way to write convincing copy and at the same time reveal the truth without manipulating the public, I wouldn't try to make a deal with a copywriter.

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clever7

11 years ago

I’m glad with this information.

Thank you!

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Quality Copywriter

11 years ago

I know someone recently who has a few writers on here going on spec for them.

the chances are the copy will suck. but if you have some peanuts you'll always find some monkeys.

I personally don't think any copy guy/girl should write on spec for something in the future.

if the client is not willing to invest, it says it all.
Sometimes big clients try this on. Promising you future work etc. usually a big fat lie.

I use designers all the time and other freelancers, I would never dream of asking them to work for free with payment later.

I think you have to respect people more than that.

save up some cash, doesn't have to be a fortune, and take a punt with some one.

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clever7

11 years ago

Wish you were more sympathetic and patient, and we could have a pleasant discussion.

It’s really hard to deal with so many people in a forum. You are so many, but I am only one person…

I didn’t say that I want to make a deal because I want to find a copywriter who would work for free. I said that I want to make a deal because I don't trust anyone - because I had bad experiences online.

This thread is about my questions, so it may seem to be selfish, but I’m sure that many other Warriors found interesting information in it, especially if they ignore many things about copywriting like me.

I understood what I was looking for. So, I’m happy.

I forgive everyone for being rude in many aspects, and I hope you will also forgive me for telling you what I think without trying to please you.

All the best!

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OutOfThisWord 11 years ago

And you will continue to have bad experiences online while focused on something for nothing.

Not only will it make you an easy target for all the b.s. artists...

...it will also hurt your ability to ever make any significant headway.
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RickDuris

11 years ago

There are good guys in this business. Here's one of them:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ob...y-9405755.html

Unfortunately, this is an obituary. RIP

- Rick Duris

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BrianMcLeod

11 years ago

The great lesson in this thread is how tightly a person with irrational beliefs will cling to them - even in the face of a multitude of compelling arguments to the contrary.

For those new to copywriting, note the uphill battle trying to change someone's mind who doesn't want to...

Not impossible, but also rarely worth the effort.

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clever7

11 years ago

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

The great lesson in this thread is how tightly a person with irrational beliefs will cling to them - even in the face of a multitude of compelling arguments to the contrary.

For those new to copywriting, note the uphill battle trying to change someone's mind who doesn't want to...

Not impossible, but also rarely worth the effort.

Irrational beliefs?

You need lessons about logical thinking and you also have to learn how to talk based on valid arguments.

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BrianMcLeod 11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

You need lessons about logical thinking and you also have to learn how to talk based on valid arguments.

Perhaps a snake will come to me in a dream and explain it.
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- clever7 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod
  
  Perhaps a snake will come to me in a dream and explain it.
  
  The snake is one of the most important dream symbols, but I'm not allowed to use this forum to promote my work, and this is why I cannot give you more explanations. I believe that your criticism is a demonstration of disrespect to the forum owners. This is not what we are talking about.
  
  We are talking about the positive and the negative aspects of copywriting.
  
  I can even tell you that exactly because I worked as a seller in my own store (with a partner and sellers who already were working in the store. This store was a gift from my relatives) for more than 15 years I know very well the buyers' behavior.
  
  Some people really must be pushed to make a buying decision. Their doubts about irrelevant aspects never end. Other people need the confirmation of the world before making a buying decision... I could give you numerous examples that justify the attitude of the sellers who try to make someone finally decide to buy the product.
  
  The truth is complex.
  
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sethczerepak

11 years ago

I think it's time to throw the towel in on this one.

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clever7 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sethczerepak

I think it's time to throw the towel in on this one.

I guess this is your method. Whoever may open a thread in this section of the forum will be attacked to the end.
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Mark Pescetti 11 years ago

Originally Posted by sethczerepak

I think it's time to throw the towel in on this one.

If the thread dies, it dies.
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- clever7 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti
  
  If the thread dies, it dies.
  
  OK, I have no objections.
  
  The end.
  
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BrianMcLeod

11 years ago

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naidyphoon

11 years ago

Clever7,

I used to think that if I only poured my heart and soul into my products, I'd sell a million copies within the first week - that was until I saw a WSO which was 15-pages in length (large fonts, double-spaced) which sold for $37. The owner sold hundreds of copies whereas my 202-pages ebook which sold for $7 only got 25 customers.

I was furious and from that day on, I decided to focus on being a best-selling author rather than a best-writing author. Of course I still strive to provide immense value to my customers, but I placed much more emphasis on marketing my product.

Once I did that, I got my first WOTD and my product had reached the hands of many more customers and have benefited many more people. Truth is, if your product is worth more than the asking price, you shouldn't be hesitant to sell it with all your heart.

What's the difference between someone who sells caffeine anhydrous and someone who sells a secret element discovered by scientists in China that doubles sports performance? Not much - just that the former person becomes much,much richer than the latter.

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