P.S: Don't Put It At The End of Every E-mail In An AR Series...

10 years ago

You have a point. Every time I read a P.S or worse P.P.S it's like I got kicked in the head, feeling nauseated and have to decide whether or not to get a brainwash......AGAIN!

LOL!

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Steve The Copywriter

10 years ago

I'm Ok with one P.S.

Sometimes and only if it is relevant 2.

But when they mutate and multiply (I once saw 6) it's just shouting screaming, howling and bawling.

And it all feels a bit desperate.

Steve

P.S. (no maybe not this time - no need)

P.P.S. Dammit there is. Kern often does it after the "pitch" and first P.S. saying something like - "I saw a great film, TV show, read a good book you'll enjoy it…"

I like it because it isn't banging on about buying whatever the thing instead it puts a human side to the spiel.

I get the "tactic" - no need to keep on relentlessly selling and good use of reciprocation.

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Lance K

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter

I'm Ok with one P.S.

Sometimes and only if it is relevant 2.

But when they mutate and multiply (I once saw 6) it's just shouting screaming, howling and bawling.

And it all feels a bit desperate.

Steve

I seem to remember being taught to always use post scripts in odd numbers. My memory isn't always the greatest though.

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Cool Hand Luke

10 years ago

Sorry Cam, but to put it bluntly: those of us who are in business to make money don't particularly care what you say annoys you or anyone else as an individual.... we care what makes money. Period.

I don't know what it is about this forum, but it seems like 99% of people here aren't marketers at all. Threads exactly like this keep popping up:

"Long video sales letters are annoying, don't do them"
"Stop emailing your list every day, it's annoying"
"Don't use such bright red colors in your headline, it's annoying"

Meanwhile, if you actually stopped any of those things you'd be leaving a ton of money on the table. (and yes, extensive testing has proven this)

I get a TON of clickthroughs and sales from my P.S.'s, and since they work they're staying in, until someone offers up solid data that shows their is a better alternative.

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shawnlebrun

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

Sorry Cam, but to put it bluntly: those of us who are in business to make money don't particularly care what you say annoys you or anyone else as an individual.... we care what makes money. Period.

I don't know what it is about this forum, but it seems like 99% of people here aren't marketers at all. Threads exactly like this keep popping up:

"Long video sales letters are annoying, don't do them"
"Stop emailing your list every day, it's annoying"
"Don't use such bright red colors in your headline, it's annoying"

Meanwhile, if you actually stopped any of those things you'd be leaving a ton of money on the table. (and yes, extensive testing has proven this)

I get a TON of clickthroughs and sales from my P.S.'s, and since they work they're staying in, until someone offers up solid data that shows their is a better alternative.

Luke, you're one of the folks on this forum who know as well as I do... because you're one of the more experienced who are actually making money.

You can go up and down every single section and subdomain of this entire WF....

And it's the old 80-20 principle.

80% of the people on this forum don't make any real money... so a lot of the stuff they throw out there is simply opinion.

It is what it is.

But yeah, a lot of opinions on any of the forums are not backed by data/proof.

Like you said... anything that you're wondering can be solved by running tests and seeing what works better.

Send out split tests with your emails... one with the PS and the other without... track and see what happens.

But yeah, I think most people on this forum and all other forums tend to see things from THEIR eyes... and not from their market's perspective.

I always remember Gary B's story about "think like the fish, not the fishermen"

What would make people bite on an offer? Think about what the fish want to eat... not what the fishermen want to use.

Sh*t, most of what I see working these days annoys the heck out of me... but again, I'm NOT looking at it from the same perspective as my prospect.

For me, it's just easier to stop wondering or asking opinions on stuff... and instead, just set up split tests and see which brings in more money.

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Steve The Copywriter 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

I seem to remember being taught to always use post scripts in odd numbers. My memory isn't always the greatest though.

Lance you may well be right.

I've never tested it - preferring to stick with 1 or 2 on emails.

Steve
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- Lance K 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter
  
  Lance you may well be right.
  
  I've never tested it - preferring to stick with 1 or 2 on emails.
  
  Steve
  
  Steve, I was just speaking of what I learned (I think) in English class somewhere along the line. Sticking to 1 or 2 in emails makes sense. We all know test results trump English class rules.
  
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MaxTurner

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

Is it just me, or is anyone else annoyed by Copywriters putting "PS" at the bottom of every single e-mail?

We all know the importance of the "P.S", but when they're at the bottom of every single e-mail it just looks newbish and lame.

The problem is compounded by P.P.S, or its evil twin, P.S.S (really? Post Script Script?).

Just something that popped in my mind, and I decided to bestow it here on the Copywriting forum for your enjoyment.

YW.

P.S: Let me know what your thoughts are...

P.S.S: Doesn't this look kind of like a swear word? Maybe a slightly censored one?

P.S.S.S: Let me know if you put P.S at the bottom of every e-mail in an AR series.

P.S.S.S.S: It's not bad to use P.S here and there, just don't overdo it...

You make a great point that everyone is using this tactic, but if it works to get someone to click through or purchase something - I don't blame them for trying or at least putting it there - I mean wouldn't you?

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RickDuris

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

Is it just me, or is anyone else annoyed by Copywriters putting "PS" at the bottom of every single e-mail?

We all know the importance of the "P.S", but when they're at the bottom of every single e-mail it just looks newbish and lame.

The problem is compounded by P.P.S, or its evil twin, P.S.S (really? Post Script Script?).

Just something that popped in my mind, and I decided to bestow it here on the Copywriting forum for your enjoyment.

YW.

P.S: Let me know what your thoughts are...

P.S.S: Doesn't this look kind of like a swear word? Maybe a slightly censored one?

P.S.S.S: Let me know if you put P.S at the bottom of every e-mail in an AR series.

P.S.S.S.S: It's not bad to use P.S here and there, just don't overdo it...

Cam, do you know how valuable a PS can be from an attention perspective?

I've heard old copywriting masters say it's the second most valuable copywriting device in a sales letter. Right behind the headline.

That's said, can you over do it? Can it lead to "PS" blindness?

I don't know for sure. I've never tested a piece with and without the PS. But I will say I put a lot of thought into them.

- Rick Duris

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

I know it's valuable, for sure. I just think people start to roll their eyes after receiving 5-6 e-mails in a row, each with multiple P.S's at the bottom... it looks cheesy in my opinion, and I think a lot of people would agree.

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RickDuris

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

I know it's valuable, for sure. I just think people start to roll their eyes after receiving 5-6 e-mails in a row, each with multiple P.S's at the bottom... it looks cheesy in my opinion, and I think a lot of people would agree.

I understand.

I once had a project where a Client rebeled against putting provocative teaser copy on the carrier envelope. We did a small test. The teaser copy worked overwhelmingly.

She was faced with an awkward situation. She could stick with her opinion or she could accept the additional business.

It can be a tough choice at times. Because not wanting to look "cheesy" or not congruent with the brand is a very real concern of Clients.

I deal with it regularly.

- Rick Duris

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MikeHumphreys

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

I know it's valuable, for sure. I just think people start to roll their eyes after receiving 5-6 e-mails in a row, each with multiple P.S's at the bottom... it looks cheesy in my opinion, and I think a lot of people would agree.

With the amount of email people get every day, I tend to doubt they keep track of who is using multiple P.S.'s at the end of each email.

My 3 cents,

Mike

P.S. I've been known to use multiple P.S.'s on a salesletter but not email. Most of the time when I write an email, it's aimed at getting people as soon as possible to click and go to a webpage. Then I can give them the full story or sales pitch, bring in more graphics, audio, and/or video and not have to worry about triggering spam filters. The exception being a content email which will be multiple pages long for me.

P.S.S. I have been known to use a P.S. on an email to either restate the offer or present a second point which I didn't mention in the rest of the email. It's great to catching skimmers who scroll down to the bottom of the email. I don't have exact metrics handy but I do remember it improved the response from those emails in an A/R series.

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Lance K

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

I know it's valuable, for sure. I just think people start to roll their eyes after receiving 5-6 e-mails in a row, each with multiple P.S's at the bottom... it looks cheesy in my opinion, and I think a lot of people would agree.

Honestly, I don't give it a 2nd thought.

If I've made it to the end of your email, you've held my attention well so a P.S. isn't a big issue.

If I skipped to the bottom of your email, I'm likely looking for the unsubscribe button. So a P.S. may be your last chance to keep me on your list.

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shawnlebrun

10 years ago

Ever since taking Matt Furey's email course back in 2005(??) or around there... I use the P.S. for the following purpose.

First, highlight THE single biggest problem this person is facing... and then use that P.S as a way to rephrase my USP again.

In other words, that P.S should have THE single biggest reason why this reader should click the link that's in the email.

That's where Matt teaches people to use the P.S as a way to "softsell" the product/service in the email.

So, it gives you another chance to wrap up your biggest reason why someone should click on over to your offer... I guess your USP... and then tell them to click on it right then and there.

Almost all emails I see don't use the P.S correctly... they just throw some lame shit in there.

But if you had the gun to your head and HAD to write one sentence that would persuade the most people to click the link and go check out your product/service... THAT is what I'd put in my P.S.

So yeah, if done wrong it's just wasted space.

If done right... you have a second chance to persuade the most people to click over to the next sequence in the sales process.

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

I just mean it looks unprofessional and "salesy" when you add it to every single e-mail of an extended AR series, that's all.

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Raydal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

Is it just me, or is anyone else annoyed by Copywriters putting "PS" at the bottom of every single e-mail?

As a marketer ALWAYS keep in mind that you are more likely to get
tired of your marketing before the prospect does. Of course you've seen
from the comments how important the P.S. is so why mess with what works?

Many people who do not read your email would scroll to the bottom and read
the P.S. They are your second headline.

-Ray Edwards

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

It's not that I personally find them annoying, it's that it's been used and abused to the point where when people see more than 1-2 P.S's, they know they're being sold to, just like Stephanie pointed out above. Never a good thing in sales or copy... Plus it's annoying.

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

@Shawn So if you do an 8 e-mail AR series, you put a P.S at the end of every single e-mail?

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shawnlebrun

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

@Shawn So if you do an 8 e-mail AR series, you put a P.S at the end of every single e-mail?

Hey Cam,

It's hard to use the word "every" because I'm sure there are times I haven't... and will be times I won't.

For example... if I send out an email to one of my lists that just says...

"Hey, you just HAVE to check this out right now... it's THAT important...

LINK"

I wouldn't then put a P.S. that tells them to do it again.

But also, I'm not sure if I'd ever send an email out like that.

But by and large, I use the P.S as a way to soft sell my offer again, and yet do it in a way that I also weave in some value at the same time.

For example... a template I guess you can call it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. RECAP YOUR PROSPECTS MAIN PROBLEM/PAIN POINT/DESIRE

YOUR USP AND SOLUTION... AND URGENCY

LINK TO CLICK
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's just off the top of my head... but yeah, I can't say I've always used one Cam, or always will.

But for me, I use it to double the chances of getting my prospect to click through to my offer.

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by shawnlebrun

Hey Cam,

It's hard to use the word "every" because I'm sure there are times I haven't... and will be times I won't.

For example... if I send out an email to one of my lists that just says...

"Hey, you just HAVE to check this out right now... it's THAT important...

LINK"

I wouldn't then put a P.S. that tells them to do it again.

But also, I'm not sure if I'd ever send an email out like that.

But by and large, I use the P.S as a way to soft sell my offer again, and yet do it in a way that I also weave in some value at the same time.

For example... a template I guess you can call it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. RECAP YOUR PROSPECTS MAIN PROBLEM/PAIN POINT/DESIRE

YOUR USP AND SOLUTION... AND URGENCY

LINK TO CLICK
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's just off the top of my head... but yeah, I can't say I've always used one Cam, or always will.

But for me, I use it to double the chances of getting my prospect to click through to my offer.

And you don't feel like seeing these P.S's constantly makes them feel as though they're being sold to?

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shawnlebrun 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

And you don't feel like seeing these P.S's constantly makes them feel as though they're being sold to?

Cam... it all depends on what you're definition of "selling" is.

In my eyes, selling is nothing more than giving people what they want... what's in their own best interests.

So sure, an amateur copywriter may use the P.S. to just throw one more lame, hyped up piece of fluff and filler in there.

A pro copywriter uses the P.S to reinforce why taking this action is in their own best interests... because it will give them what they want to do/be/have/accomplish/solve.

So yeah, you're right... if done wrong, a P.S. can be just one more area that a rookie uses to hype his/her stuff up.

Or, it can be a place where a pro copywriter reinforces WHY this person should click the link in the email... because it will help them get what they want.
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Jay White

10 years ago

I've used (and taught my students to use) to the P.S. in a couple of different situations...

First off, if they've got to the P.S., chances are they looked at all the other links and never clicked. So I like to give it one last shot to the get the click. I tend to hit on the strongest puller of the deal that I can, whether it's a special price, a one-time-only thing, a guarantee, whatever it is that I feel is the biggest attraction that will get them to click.

OR, I've used the P.S. as the only real "selling" point in a content series. Did this in the golf industry lots of times--delivered the content, then added a P.S. that leads to the product. Then, as the content series begins to close, you put the spotlight more and more on the product and the link. Sold a gazillion bucks worth of golf training this way.

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RickDuris

10 years ago

By the way, when it comes to the PS, one of the things that's worked for me is on a specific autoresponder day, having a normal email sent out, and then right behind it having an email with the subject line "PS Important." And then saying whatever it is you wanted to emphasize.

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Andy The Copywriter

10 years ago

I dunno I don't mind it personally.

P.S. It really depends though.

P.P.S. I think if you use too many of them it just looks ridiculous.

P.P.P.S. Has anyone who's NOT a copywriter ever written you a letter with more than 2 P.S.'s at the end

P.P.P.P.S. I doubt it.

P.P.P.P.P.S. So when I see copywriters using more than 2 P.S. notes on emails or long copy pages it just smacks of empty and mindless use of "tactics" without any thought for the message.

P.P.P.P.P.P.S. Except when I do it

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Mark Pescetti

10 years ago

It comes down to one thing...

Data.

The reason marketers/copywriters use a P.S. (or 3) is because they work.

If you have data that says otherwise, I'd love to see it.

Otherwise, this whole conversation is based on assumptions and personal preference.

Mark

P.S. Data shows, again and again, that the P.S. is one of the most read parts of an email... and even sales letters. You better have a good reason for NOT using it.

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BudaBrit

10 years ago

Doesn't this all boil down to the first principle any sales person is told?

Do what your audience wants, not what you want.

It doesn't matter if you think a PS is a piece of crap if your audience loves it.

It doesn't do it for me, but I know that I'm the kind of person who only signs up to newsletters for the free bonus. I wouldn't sell to me.

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Lol, it's as if I said "Never use P.S in your Copy". If so, there are some great counter-arguments to that. Never said that though...

Alright, data. I've seen data to support that P.S's increase CTR's, but none to support that having a P.S at the bottom of every e-mail or nearly every single e-mail of a long AR series is overall health for your conversions, so can someone show me THAT piece of data?

I hypothesize based on the principle that your readers/viewers/prospects are less likely to buy if they feel they're being sold to, will buy less often over the course of a long AR series IF they feel like they're being sold to. Edit: And also that having a P.S at the bottom of every single e-mail in a long AR series can make someone feel like as though they're being sold to.

I''d love to see any data to prove me right or wrong.

Thanks
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RickDuris

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

Lol, it's as if I said "Never use P.S in your Copy". If so, there are some great counter-arguments to that. Never said that though...

Alright, data. I've seen data to support that P.S's increase CTR's, but none to support that having a P.S at the bottom of every e-mail or nearly every single e-mail of a long AR series is overall health for your conversions, so can someone show me THAT piece of data?

I hypothesize based on the principle that your readers/viewers/prospects are less likely to buy if they feel they're being sold to, will buy less often over the course of a long AR series IF they feel like they're being sold to. Edit: And also that having a P.S at the bottom of every single e-mail in a long AR series can make someone feel like as though they're being sold to.

I''d love to see any data to prove me right or wrong.

Cam, here's the rule of thumb. And you can prove this to yourself easily enough.

Take any email copywriting device and consistently use it against the same list. I don't care what it is. Benefit-based subject lines... list posts... long emails... specific subject matter... short emails... it doesn't matter.

Whatever it is, it will fatigue. Quickly. You let people see the pattern and you're screwed. You ALWAYS want an element of variety. Keep changing things up.

Does that help you in your quest?

- Rick Duris

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by RickDuris

Cam, here's the rule of thumb. And you can prove this to yourself easily enough.

Take any email copywriting device and consistently use it against the same list. I don't care what it is. Benefit-based subject lines... list posts... long emails... specific subject matter... short emails... it doesn't matter.

Whatever it is, it will fatigue. Quickly. You let people see the pattern and you're screwed. You ALWAYS want an element of variety. Keep changing things up.

Does that help you in your quest?

- Rick Duris

That's what I'm saying here my man. If I were on a quest, I'd daresay it would.

lol

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Mark Pescetti

10 years ago

I have an idea...

Hit up some marketers or copywriters currently selling something.

Offer to write them an email... one with... and without a P.S.

See where most of the click-thrus come from... the body... or PS.

Mark

P.S. There's gotta be a few copywriters on here willing to take Cam up, right?

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti

I have an idea...

Hit up some marketers or copywriters currently selling something.

Offer to write them an email... one with... and without a P.S.

See where most of the click-thrus come from... the body... or PS.

Mark

P.S. There's gotta be a few copywriters on here willing to take Cam up, right?

What would that accomplish?

Thanks
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wordwizard

10 years ago

Originally Posted by RickDuris

By the way, when it comes to the PS, one of the things that's worked for me is on a specific autoresponder day, having a normal email sent out, and then right behind it having an email with the subject line "PS Important." And then saying whatever it is you wanted to emphasize.

That's a cool tip, Rick. I'm going to try that!

Originally Posted by Andy The Copywriter

I dunno I don't mind it personally.

P.S. It really depends though.

P.P.S. I think if you use too many of them it just looks ridiculous.

P.P.P.S. Has anyone who's NOT a copywriter ever written you a letter with more than 2 P.S.'s at the end

P.P.P.P.S. I doubt it.

P.P.P.P.P.S. So when I see copywriters using more than 2 P.S. notes on emails or long copy pages it just smacks of empty and mindless use of "tactics" without any thought for the message.

P.P.P.P.P.P.S. Except when I do it

LOL. This is funny.

I do almost always include a P.S., but also sometimes a P.P.S. and a P.P.P.S.

And the stuff in the P.S. (or P.S.'s - (sp?)) does get clicks...

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shawnlebrun

10 years ago

Speaking of the P.S...

I got emails from Matt Furey and Ben Settle this morning in my inbox.

Matt's a great email writer and almost never sends an email out without
a PS.

Ben, another great email writer, almost NEVER uses a P.S.

Bottom line is, it really doesn't matter what YOU as the marketer
likes... it's what your market likes that matters.

if there's one thing I've learned after 14 years online... it's this.

Most times, you have NO IDEA what's going to work... until you try it.

There's usually no "right way" to do anything... online or off.

It's what works for you to bring in the moolah.

Try something and if it works "ok"... try to make it better and improve
it... and try it again.

My motto these days is "why guess when you can test"

So, for the P.S... it's not a matter of you have to use it.

Again, it's what works for you.

Cam, if you don't like the PS... I'm pretty sure you
can do just fine without it.

Again, there's never "one right way"

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splitTest

10 years ago

I've always wondered if P.S. power has really been tested in emails, or if it's just a holdover from the print letter days.

I rarely skim to the bottom of an email I'm not interested in... Typically it involves scrolling rather than just a glance, so I don't bother.

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Cam Connor

10 years ago

Originally Posted by splitTest

I've always wondered if P.S. power has really been tested in emails, or if it's just a holdover from the print letter days.

I rarely skim to the bottom of an email I'm not interested in... Typically it involves scrolling rather than just a glance, so I don't bother.

That's an interesting point. I've never thought of it.

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Chriswrighto

10 years ago

Originally Posted by splitTest

I've always wondered if P.S. power has really been tested in emails, or if it's just a holdover from the print letter days.

I rarely skim to the bottom of an email I'm not interested in... Typically it involves scrolling rather than just a glance, so I don't bother.

Andre Chaperon is real successful with email marketing and is a huge advocate of using P.S. to "tease" what's in his next email.

One of the reasons why he does it is to create "open loops"... You can see a brief example here.

It makes readers WANT to read his next email.

From what I've seen, he also uses them constantly so to "train" the list to read them.

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P.S: Don't Put It At The End of Every E-mail In An AR Series...

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