We are not all 'Bros' & 'Dudes'

I disagree and would go further to say this sexist approach is inappropriate, and so is being an apologist for sexism.

It is one thing to have a newsletter targeted to men and be very upfront at the outset so anyone signing up knows what to expect. But that is apparently not the situation.

Otherwise, to assert it is appropriate to be sexist to target one group at the expense of another is wrong. Crap like this drives sexual harassment and discrimination lawsuits.

You can't assert most of an IM newsletter audience is going to be men so that is the primary target and that justifies calling everyone a dude. It is this type of sexist attitude which keeps out women and thus is self-perpetuating.

Might as well call women babes or bitches in the newsletter to keep up the locker room banter that is being suggested and to further make clear a certain kind of man is the target market.

This problem exists in many tech areas. I am a bit surprised, David, you would approve of "marketing" offensive to women where it is OK to drive them off a newsletter because they are not the primary target. (And they are probably not the primary target only due to numbers.)

To be clear: this is NOT about trying to please anyone and it is appalling that strategy would be misapplied here.

Example: In addition to being male, one can assume most of an IM newsletter audience is not black. That does not make is appropriate for a newsletter to be racist and to offend African-Americans because they are in the minority

One can assume most of an IM newsletter audience is not Jewish. That does not make it appropriate for a newsletter to offend Jews because they are in the minority.

It is similarly not appropriate for a general newsletter to be sexist.

To suggest one has to "try and please" women by simply being gender neutral instead referring to bros is inappropriate. One can easily start their newsletter with a simple "Hey". That's it. No need to refer to bros.

Bottom line: I am talking about a general marketing newsletter, which is apparently what Melody is talking about. If you sign up for newletter put out by Penthouse you already know what to expect and that is different.

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Agreed. I would never think of starting a newsletter hey bro, even if a product was targeted to men. Since this is a marketing newsletter it is inappropriate.

Anyone says that and the first image in my mind is here comes a scam.

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I am one of those who never uses those terms. I just don't like those terms. However, "...unless your audience is your 15 year old buddies..." is not true at all.

It's a very narrow view if you think that only 15 years old kids use such terms. I'll give you one very big examples, surfers are famous for being among those group of people who do use such terms extensively. And I would bet if you have a "surf" related list, using those terms will actually get you closer to your audience.

Now again, I personally don't like or use "dudes" or "bros", I am just saying there are people (read market) who use such terms and they are not all 15 years old kids.

Whether its appropriate or not to use "street talk", comes down to your niche.

yeah it is a younger generation thing , Steve.

I go around in Public and people calling me Bro and hey Dude.

It gets quite old. Also, I cuss to myself when I hit my hand with a hammer but I really get tired of some people who have to blurt out during passive conversation with loud F bomb in every sentence for everyone to hear.

I feel like slapping them when they do it in front of children and elders in my present

Personally, there are 4 people in the world who are allowed to call me "bro" without me taking it as they are presuming a relationship we don't have. "Dude"? To me it's not a proper way to talk to anyone you have respect for. To be quite honest, Any time I've used the word "dude" in referring to someone, it's almost always right after they just did something offensive and stupid. I try not to use that word often.

The people allowed to call me "bro" are my one brother and my three sisters. That's it. Nobody else currently has permission to call me "bro" without me taking it as they presume we have a closer relationship than we actually do.

I so agree. It seems disrespectful to address someone that way, especially if you are trying to get them to buy from you. I get a little annoyed at being referred to as "buddy" as well. If they want me to buy from them, then show a little respect. -Old Lady Fern

First: Just because you think these terms show a lack of respect, it doesn't mean you have any clue what you're on about. You clearly don't. I would place far more trust in an individual who addresses me the way he addresses his friends. Slang and all. At least then I can get a real feel for what the lad is like. Compare that to the people pleasers who are afraid to tell it like it is and let it all hang out; warts and all. You think those people are more trustworthy because they didn't try to offend you? Or less trustworthy? Clearly you have a mental block there.

Second: Slang and street talk SHOULDN'T be kept outside of business. People are people, plain and simple. If you act one way out on the street, but another way when addressing me, how am I to know which one is the real you? Chances are if you hold back your true personality, I suspect there's a lot more you're holding back too. This is just common sense.

Third: Any person who gets offended by what another person says in HIS business, is an idiot, and therefore, not someone I ever want to work with. In fact, watching what you say in fear of offending a woman clearly shows a lack of respect. After all, isn't this all about equal respect for both men and women. It is, and therefore, I always address men and women the exact same way. If either of them get offended, I'll fire them as customers immediately.

I run MY business the way I want to run it. I'll say whatever the hell I like as long as it doesn't infringe on another persons rights. And NO "not being offended" is not a bloody right. Anyone who doesn't like it, can ignore it.

Fourth: Just because women make up the majority of Internet users today, doesn't mean you have to include them in your marketing. Same goes for men.

Personally, I think using "Bros" and "Dudes" is a bit silly, considering the guys list had a lot of women on it. That didn't make any sense. However, it certainly isn't unprofessional, sexist or lacking in respect to use such words in YOUR business. Anyone who thinks it is, is clearly not thinking as an individual and needs some alone time to figure out why they have a NEED impose their own backward beliefs onto someone else. Again, if you don't like it, ignore it.

There's a great lesson in this thread for up and coming marketers. Look at what the majority of people are saying here in this thread. Now, go do the opposite, because you can be certain, the majority are always wrong.

You know you're on the right path when you have a bunch of nitwits telling you what you should and shouldn't say in your own bloody business.

If we were to take the advice given by the majority of commenters in this very thread. We'd all be spineless wimps with not an ounce of real personality.

Anyone who tells you that slang and jargon have no place in business, are not to be trusted. I am, and so are you, the same person when you buy a product, as you are when sitting in the pub talking to your friends.

Open up your inbox right now and read the messages. I bet most of them are boring, mundane trite that look the same as all the rest. And what you're told to do, is follow suit. Feck that. I repel people in order to pull others closer. That's what polarizing is all about - and if you aren't using it in your emails, you're being ignored by the vast majority of people. Why? Because you're competing for the lions share of the attention while sounding like everyone else. And by the way: The most prolific and respected email marketers in the business, ALL polarize and use slang & jargon in their emails, because they realise that EMAIL is a personal thing. You MUST be personal. And to be personal, you certainly shouldn't be censoring yourself.

Sure, some nitwits won't like it, but I guarantee you that the people who do, the people who DO get you, will be much more loyal. That's how you build, not a list of subscribers, but a list of loyal fans. You've heard that smaller lists can out pull larger lists before, right? You know why? Because the people with these smaller lists have a much more personal connection with the people on their email lists.

Wouldn't it be nice to just let your amazing content do the relationship building thing for ya? It would, but you know what? You haven't got the best content. And while everyone else out there is trying to "out content" each other, it's TRUST that builds the most loyal following. And what's the best way to build trust? You guessed it, it's by showing the character BEHIND the content. That's what people care more about these days.

Pandering to the majority and trying to people please by being "professional" reeks of insecurity. And by the way, "professionalism" has absolutely nothing to do with the language you use. Leave the people pleasing to the politicians, because I can tell you this much: now more than ever people are looking to follow REAL people who aren't afraid to let it all hang out, warts and all. Isn't that the whole point of email anyway.

Who do you trust online? To most, this is a very difficult question to answer, because let's face it, anybody can act professional and tell you what you want to hear. It's easy. Everyone is doing it. And so, follow what everyone is doing and watch as you get the same results as everyone. In a business with a 90%+ failure rate, you really have to ask yourself, whether you should EVER listen to the majority. You certainly shouldn't.

Look at the nitwits in this thread who think it's unprofessional and disrespectful to use the words "bros" and dudes" in an email subject line. Do you seriously think these people have a firm grasp on reality? They don't. And that's not an opinion. It's a fact. They love to blammer on about "the right way" to talk to YOUR email subscribers. Truth is, industry norms are set, obeyed and reinforced by the mediocre majority, who earn average, or below average incomes and never really rise to the top.

Success is about behaviour. You can't get the great results created by the profound minority if you emulate the behavior of the mediocre majority. Most email lists will have a large proportion of fence sitters. You know, the people who really couldn't care less about you, your business or the products you sell. You don't want fence sitters on your email lists. You want people to choose a side. They're either on your side of the fence, or they're on the other side. In order to build a list of raving fans, you must repel some people in the process.

As Dan Kennedy so rightly said, "If you haven't pissed someone of by lunchtime, you're not doing much of anything"

Look at the majority of people in this thread, and notice how easily they're offended. Are they really the people you want dictating how you run YOUR business? Or would it make much more sense to build a business around people who are more like you? The answer is obvious, unless, of course, you're one of those nitwits who gets offended by what another person says.

And once again, "not being offended" is not a right.

- Declan

women online are a huge demographic and we have lots of money to spend - including in the make money online niche -
so your assumptions are completely wrong.

oh i totally agree mark...its not some split test.

but at the same time, just because someone ends up on a list doenst mean thats who i wanted there...meaning i may have not been targeting them.

I guess my point is that men and women are different. and i would bet most of my wealth on the fact that if i segmented a MMO list between men and women i could make more "speaking" in a certain tone to each one than i could by being gender neutral.

Which means, that if i keep the whole system optimized to target men that i could connect and engage with that group better than i could if i tried to connect with men and women.

i also agree that the number of business folks who are ok with being referred to as "dudes" is probably fairly small. it doesnt scream "i know what i am doing".

my point isn't really the idea of using "dude" or not, it was more on the fact that men and women are different. i dont care what you are selling if you are a marketer, you better acknowledge that.

the big tv advertisers do....the popular tv show makers do.... certain ads run on espn that dont run on hgtv.

and then we can try to ignore the other elephant in the room here. i absolutely have no doubt in my mind that the majority of people on the average MMO list are in fact men. again, not saying thats good or bad or that women cant be in the MMO market.

but i have no doubt thats the truth, so if i know that, and i know that keeping subscribers engaged is super important, i would be a fool not to error on the side of slanting my messages towards men more than women.

i am not arguing that using "dude" is right or that the guy were are talking about had a clue. i am certain he didn't/ but this discussion is interesting to me that so many think we should be marketing to men and women in exactly the same way.

as for the :"n" word. many rappers do indeed use that word...becasue it helps them engage and identify with a certain group of people... i am certainly not saying its right, merely pointing out that record sales indicate that it has been split tested and including that word does not hurt sales from one group more than it helps form others.

Exactly, they have a target market, and that is what they are marketing to, and that is their choice. It's clear by the design of the site and their marketing approach that they want to deal with women. And that is fine.

But when I am buying a product that was heavily marketed across all sectors, not at all niche specific, and then the vendor assumes that everyone that bought the product is a dude or bro - that to me is just a baffling marketing approach.

Melody

I like the topic and the discussion Melody high 5!

When I get online I just keep my regular speaking voice pretty much and the thought of treating people the way I like to be treated. I do sometimes type guys/gals because I am conscious about being inclusive. I realize that not everyone is..its cool with me.

But if you alienate a segment of your own market what good does that do you?

These days unfortunately there is definitely an irreverent crowd that think its cool to be that way. That is not for me. But more power to you if that works for you.

We have entire marketing communities of people that mostly steal for a living and find ways to exploit systems for gain.

People think its cool to take over someones instagram account.

People use fake avatars of opposite sex.

People say the words "model after" when most just plain copy and paste as call it their own.

So for the most part appropriate grammar is not something that will get under my skin the most.

You're being racist towards aliens and the nutcases who believe that they ascended from an ancient life form that traveled here from a distant galaxy. Why do you hate mentally challenged people?

(And for those who don't realize it, I was being 110% sarcastic there. Not my opinion at all.)

That's called a PC Police smack down and it doesn't matter if there's any logic to it or not. The only thing that matters is that there are people gullible enough to buy into it and think that their rights are somehow diminished because others have a different opinion. The "racists" are usually the ones doing the accusing...not those being blamed...and it's a great way to keep our world divided over petty things.

LMAO

Thanks

And what if you are from Mars???? Do you have some sort of problem with martians??

al

LOL - yes, I have had this happen so many times! Here, on my personal Facebook and LinkedIn pages, and my response is exactly the same as yours.

While I have to admit I never anticipated this kind of response to my 'venting', it has certainly been better than Friday night TV.

As to whether it is age, or gender, or maybe a generational issue, it could be but I really don't think it is with me, and I doubt that it is with most of us that object to it. I spent 16 years working in Silicon Valley, and I know more than my share of millionaires who work from home and have never owned a tie. I do a lot of work with banks and a decade ago - that meant getting out the black suit for a meeting - today, it's just as often a blazer and jeans. Business IS a lot more casual than it used to be - and that's more than fine by me. I've been home-based since before it was something to be proud of (yes, we used to try and hide it!)

But I still think that the sweeping assumption that the IM industry is populated by bros and dudes is an absolute case of tunnel vision, and if you launch a product to the general market - then many of your customers may just happen to be female, and I promise you that we will be much more receptive to your future marketing efforts if you don't ignore us. Not asking you to cater to us, just simply don't insult us by ignoring the fact that we bought your product!

Melody

That is NOT what the discussion is about - there is nothing wrong with using gender-specific terminology when you need to.

My peeve is about buying a totally gender neutral product (i.e. a wordpress plugin) and having all follow-up marketing addressed to 'Hey Dude!' or 'Yo, bro!'.

If you want to be gender specific in your marketing....that's fine...but be consistent from beginning to end....don't take my money upfront and then treat me as though I don't exist afterwards!

Mel

And that's exactly why i posted...
I have no dog in this argument and of course i have nothing against our female or male colleagues being offended by being addressed with Dude or Bro etc.

It's when people start using words such as racist and sexist in this context that annoys me....

...but the avatar looks like John Candy from the back.

Seems to me you've taken this as something to "prove" way beyond the initial scope of the OP's comments.

As a WOMAN, I do not appreciate receiving emails that begin "Hey dude" or "what you doin' bro" - and I HAVE received emails like that from marketers on this forum. If they were selling "ex back" or "viagra" or "attract women", or "he-man abs" I'd unsubscribe because I'm not the target market. It wouldn't bother me but the list is not for me.

That's not what we are talking about here - as you can clearly see in the OP's comments.

These are not people on the level of Budweiser. They are often young or inexperienced marketers who are uncomfortable with their own message and not thinking about or planning their marketing approach.

That's all it is - nothing more.

Exactly.

Although it's arguably worse.

Someone engaging in boorish behavior probably only needs to be told one once: hey, you're not cool and your language isn't appropriate and costing you subscribers and reputation. Problem solved.

But to justify the behavior and suggest it's OK to intentionally be sexist (or racist or whatever) and "alienate" customers at their "expense" because they are in the minority, or because "demographics" are available is troubling.

The marketing, positioning, segmenting, etc, usually happens before the purchase. Not after a generic purchase of something like a WordPress plugin.

McDonalds might have a billboard with an African-American spokesperson in one neighborhood, and a billboard with an Asian spokesperson in another. I'm reasonably confident that if you sign up to get a coupon on their website the company does not email it with a message starting "Hey Bro", "Hey Nig*a" or anything else that has attempted to be justified.

Someone might say, OK, they have said, Brian, you're using wild language and that is not what I meant.

Well ... if a person makes a proposition it is OK to use to language that "alienates" women because they are in the minority, lets explore the ramifications.

As I have done in many posts over the years, and what I get paid to do, extreme examples are used to make a point. While one may agree overt sexism is of course wrong, less overt sexism can be just as harmful. Hence the thread.

If one is going to assert it is OK to use "Bro" and alienate women off a marketing list, it is no different than asserting it is OK to refer to harsher and more explicit language. Same purpose. Just different words. Where is the line drawn?

In fact, since the proposition has been made more money can be made by appealing to locker room talk and driving off the women, then isn't the argument to be as offensive as possible to women? The more sexist you are the better?

I don't think this is baffling or difficult at all. An "offensive" segmentation strategy involves pre-purchase positioning. After purchase of a generic product crapping on the women who just paid you money or signed up to your newsletter is not appropriate.

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If marketers are sharing honestly with other marketers (which is very cool) that they can possibly be offended or feeling alienated then there really is not debate that is the reality right?

So why lose a potential customer, affiliate, potential JV partner, someone that could have intro'd you to a life changer in your business, someone that could have invited you to a big speaking gig....on and on just to make a point?

There are no statistics you can put up, you can write for years but every word you type is losing you potential business you could have had. IMHO.

I don't think it's "sexist" or "discriminatory". I don't have a problem with getting an email with "dude" but I will assume I'm not the person's target market and I will unsubscribe. No biggie.

I do think it's often not planned - but unthinking and unintentional. Young marketers and English second language marketers may not realize how their use of slang impacts their list.

If you intend to target men - or women - no problem but you need to be testing results. All Melody and I have been saying is if you have a product that appeals to a wide audience you make a mistake if you "assume" your list is all male.

Tell me about it

OMG - don't even know how to address that remark. Honestly thought that most people were pretty much past the point of referring to women as a minority. Obviously not.

But again, let me clarify this point since it seems to have gotten lost along the way: I have no problem with you addressing your market as dudes and bros, cats and dogs, or martians and venusians - if that is who the product was targeting originally. If I buy a product from a sales page that is male oriented and uses 'dudes and bros' throughout the sales copy, then I would EXPECT the follow-up marketing to be in the same vein.

But when I buy a generically marketed product - something to be used by anyone, regardless of gender, race, preference, religion, etc......I think it simply shows a certain level of respect to ALL of your customers to not make the assumption that we are all men, and all your bro.

One of the things I've always loved about IM is that anyone can succeed online because the net is gender/race/age neutral and provides a level playing field for everyone. But obviously - not all see it that way.

Melody

I don't think that's the case at all and as for "fuming", I think you've got that market cornered. (I'm teasing...I've actually enjoyed your presentation of some thought-provoking arguments in support of the question.)

But, ignore the words "sexist" for now and look at the specific example Melody offered - a WordPress plugin or theme that's targeting a market that consists of both men and women.

Using "dude" or "bro" in post-purchase emails of said product strikes some of us as unprofessional when there are obviously other ways to accomplish the same thing. (Now, here, I'm making an assumption because I can only guess what someone thinks they're accomplishing by using either phrase in their business. Those are the words my 11 year old uses when talking to his friends on XBox...)

And that is a recipe for missed opportunities. Most businesses would jump at the chance to explore more segments and markets rather than narrowly focusing only on the one in which they first found success.

The fact is some marketers use these phrases without thinking about them. I don't know if they're mimicking someone or following some suggestion from someone but there are absolutely some marketers who are using those phrases incorrectly.

Even some men have chipped in and said the same thing - they find it unprofessional.

So, if you knew a phrase turned off some segment of your buyer base and you had alternatives (because, surely, there are some) then why would one continue to use either phrase in their business communications?

I think Melody offered a nice reminder to those who are using "bro" and "dude" in their communications to customers to think about whether or not it's appropriate.

I asked my wife, who does promotions, about this topic. Her thoughts:

1. Any email starting "Hey Bro" is automatically deleted.

2. Anyone starting an email "Hey Bro" is either a spammer or idiot.

Interestingly, she said beyond "Hey Bro" those using similar faux friendliness techniques are almost always spammers.

3. If you want to segment an existing list you can professionally do so by making gender related product offers.

Example: Macy's can send an email offering a discount off several products, including women's bras and men's ties. Someone buying women's bras is probably a woman and that segment would be more likely to receive further promotions emphasizing women's products.

4. Even segmentation would not excuse starting an email "Hey Bro". You just make the product offer.

.

And many, including from Warriors, are ignored or not honored.

Mark

Lol, that just tells them your alive & well.

If you want to present yourself professionally, you should circumvent the juvenile culture lingo unless your business truly depends upon it.

You should heed the consensus as Q.E.D.

Being most professional wasn't touched upon, rather the benefit of communicating professionally i.e. in a universal style that everyone can relate to which eliminates risk of going against the grain of some people. The ability to resist slang greetings and labels is within the capacity of all.

I wouldn't assume that irritating some people is a fair sacrifice on the assumption that you are connecting with others at some deeper level with words that are already rife.

Pleasing all with the standard is clearly the safest bet.

It's bittersweet.

We dislike it but the early alarm bells are surely valuable.

Calling people 'bro' and 'dude' is not an angle.

It's common and a bugbear for many.

Why the **** did you bring this thread back to life?

Not just in Boston, we say it down here in South Texas. At least I do



- Robert Andrew