Is Coaching When You Have No Experience Unethical

yes, its unethical


I dont see how you can make an argument to the contrary

dont do it and best of luck in your ethical endeavors

-Ike Paz

This is so bizarre, I'm confused!

So the guy has no experience in what he's coaching? Well then how does that make them a coach?!

I think his correct job title is 'con artist'.

2 or 3 years ago a guy sent a PM to coach me after a post that I said that I was a newbie, I did not respond him.

Some few months later, I posted an image of a cheque of my earnings in a motivation thread, then a few hours later the same guy(I remembered because the other message was still in my inbox) sent me a message asking questions on my methods and if I could help him. I did not respond to that pm either.

I think yes its unethical in that way.

But maybe there are different types of coaching like time management etc. I don't know. I see many fat dietitians, it is a problem of trust.

It's only unethical when someone pays you for your expert coaching services, and you say...."Ummmmmm"...and cut off all communication

In truth, it depends on how much you know as a newbie. AND more importantly, the promise you put forth through the program. Some new marketers study, learn, implement and have the confidence and clarity to deliver exactly what a client needs, based on the promise made by the coach.

I considered it as unethical if the guy who do the coaching has no experience of what he/she is teaching. Teaching based on theory doesn't guarantee to work!

I think it's perfectly fine for someone that hasn't "been there and done that"
to be a coach in certain circumstances.

In the MMO bizarro world, coaching is some creature that is nothing like coaching in the "real world."

For example, in MMO coaching you have situations like these:

1. • Coaching done by recording only
   • DFY Coaching
   • Coaching with Income Guarantees
   • Coaching that is really just teaching

Let's compare this situation to most of the real world business/life coaching perspectives.

1. Coaching normally has to be interactive in some way. That's at the very definition of coaching. Yes coaches may use recordings but for the most part it has to be interactive.

2. There is no such thing as DFY coaching in the real world where the coach sets up your website or whatever. Maybe that's called outsourcing, consulting, or employment but it's not coaching.

3. A real coach would never provide income guarantees or even come close to it. Coaching relies on the client to do the work, to make the changes, etc.

4. Most real coaches don't teach - they coach. For example, it is not the norm for a real world coach to show someone how to set up a website on WP. The coach guides, directs, etc. but does not tell the client what to do. The client may decide to go with Joomla or plain HTML. The coach is fine with this and it doesn't interrupt the coaching process at all.
The coach that has no experience in Joomla can still help the client be successful.

Part of this is because the coach doesn't tell people what to do. They ask more questions than the give answers. And the answers come from within the client.

For example, "I need to find a coach to tell me what business to start online" would NOT fly in the real world. The coach may not even give hints as to possibilities. The work and the success has to come from the client.

In that example with that question, a coach may turn it around and ask "what has your research led you to believe is the best route to take?" and then let the client find their own way as they are guided by the coach. The responsibility is on the client.

Likewise, many real coaches don't take on clients that are needy, desperate, etc. They want people that are strong, that will get things done, and that will take responsibility for themselves and their situations. Clients in the real world don't expect babysitters because they don't need them. Compare that to the thinking in the MMO world.

And finally, what does experience have to do with anything? Who coaches and advises the president of the US? There's only a couple left living that have been there and done that. Who coaches Fortune 50 CEOs? Who coaches people like Bill Gates? Only people that have made the billions he has?

But a real coach doesn't need experience doing something like making money with a WP site because that is irrelevant to the coaching. The same principles and guidelines a coach may use to help that person could be used for opening a gas station, a restaurant, getting a better job, or losing weight.

They work on principles more than the detailed how to information. And their concept is that the experience, knowledge, action, success, etc. has to come from the client so it really is more about the client than the coach.

Mark

Despite the fact that it is absolutely unethical, yes, many so called "coaches" just teach theoretical knowledge, if any.

However, just by watching tons of YouTube videos and buying numerous infoproducts regarding IM, you don't become an expert. You may learn the fundamentals and "tools" to start working, but without facing the real world and real processes you won't know more than any theoretical bookworm out there.

When I started my E-Commerce career, I already had experiences in marketing other things, but almost no experience regarding selling physical stuff online myself. What I learned then in the following year was incredible. So, as long as you don't have a coach who did this by himself and know how to teach, there is no shortcut to this. Experiencing this stuff in reality gives you by far the best learning effect and makes you stand out of the millions of theoretical experts.

It is unethical because they sell skills and knowledge they don't have.

But I would not worry too much about it. If a person doesn't have skills or knowledge he would not be able effectively to sell himself and his services. So the damage from his services and activities would be quite minimal.

Not sure why anyone would think Kevin Fahey is famous in any field. I've never heard of him. Then again, I don't spend much time on this forum anymore. I spend most of my time now just doing the same old same old marketing stuff.

To answer the question...

Yes, it is ethical if you can help people get to where they need to be.

Simon Cowell is an example of someone who can't sing, but can tell you everything you are lacking to become a great performer. He knows what sucks, and what is good. And how you will fit into the industry.

He also has several connections and OTHER skills that make it not matter that he's not a vocal coach.

So, if Simon Cowell was a vocal coach, that would be unethical, because just being a vocal coach, he couldn't help you. But he can help you become the performer you need to be to become the star you wish to be.

So the simple answer is if you can help a person get to where you know they want to be, then it is okay to be a coach.

Jon Taffer, of Bar Rescue, is not a mixologist. But he knows what a bartender needs and lacks to be successful. He knows how to create a successful bar.

Truth is, EVERY coach is lacking something.

EVERY coach lacks a certain set of knowledge needed to help their students. What do they do? They bring on/interview the experts in that small set of knowledge to educate their students for them.

In the IM space, a great example would be Terry Dean and Glenn Livingston, and Doberman Dan, etc.

You see, you might know that Retargeting is something that will help your coaching students, but not be good at either doing it/teaching it/or both. But you can interview someone who does and offer that content to them. And they almost always end up being grateful to you and still see you as the coach you want them to.

What I am point out more than anything is...

There are a lot of ways to skin a cat.

It's unethical especially if you're making people pay you thousands of dollars to improve their life. If you're going to be a coach you better know what you're doing.

It's kinda like those people that give everyone health and food advice but are overweight themselves... You have to be the part, and not play the part.

On average, how many years did those college coaches serve as assistants, coordinators and scouts before becoming head coaches? While they may not have had experience as players, I'll bet they had plenty of experience as coaches before becoming head coaches.

Regardless of what any of us think or resolve in this thread, there are always going to be marketers that do unethical things. Usually these people don't last long because their approach typically doesn't work (with some exceptions of course).

Here's the thing IMO: no one has to give these unethical marketers any money. You don't have to let them scam you. No one is holding a gun to your head "forcing" you to employ such a coach.

Even if you are a potential victim of a brand new unethical marketer that has no bad track record yet, you can avoid the guys scam by insisting on doing your due diligence first before you commit to anything. Insist on finding a coach that has a great track record. Ask him for references. Check up on them. Do thorough searches online to see what the person's name or product/service returns to you.

One more bit of advice: don't hire a coach if you're brand new to IM. You'll be paying that coach to teach you basic and elementary things that you can learn for free right here at the Warrior Forum.

IMO, coaches are most valuable after you understand the basics and have had some hands on experience. I would go further and say don't hire a coach until after you have a business in place and have some experience selling. Then you will be in a position to hire a coach with a great track record in your field (niche) and who understands your business model. Then you will be able to ask the important questions sensibly and have him help you over the obstacles that you haven't solved yet.

To my way of thinking, don't worry about the unethical coaches because you can't do much about them. The best thing you can do to put them out of business is to not give them any money.

The best to you,

Steve

According to Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary:

Coach

Wouldn't you have to know yourself, to teach others?

Yes it is, no matter what level of success you have, coaches and mentors can always come in handy. Even successful business owners can using coaching, and yes even coaches can use mentoring as well. You can never stop learning, and you can always learn something new. Besides that, most need mentoring with the mental part of business, not so much a step by step plan to follow, that part is easy.

I believe what it means is that "He's going to show you how to start coaching today even you're a complete newbie on Coaching"

So you have a field of expertise but you don't know to be a coach or how to be a teacher on that particular topic, so he will help you on how to do that. He doesn't care about on what kind of topics you are knowledgeable of

I hope it makes sense

I get it, I honestly do but...

People's perception of an expert can be very different. I would always take advice of someone who had more experience as me. If they say they are an expert then big deal. I'll take em on a one to one basis and make my own judgement. By the way according to Wikipedia "An expert is somebody who obtains results that are superior to those obtained by the majority of the population"

Just my opinion anyway, have due diligence and be cautious!

Thank you for your opinions, The guy teaching though is NOT a newbie. As I said he is a FAMOUS IM marketeer with experience. He is showing how newbies, no experience in anything can become an expert and make money almost overnight.

Knute Rockne, never played football, but he studied the methods, learned the game, and knew how it should work to become one of the greatest coaches of all time. He did not take his players who maybe had one game under his belt and say no go and teach others.

Wouldnt you say this is similiar to someone experienced saying to newbies, here is how I created a WSO, now go and create a WSO on how to Create a WSO? Or am I missing something here?

Thanks by the way for a very interesting and intelligent discussion. More intelligent than a lot of WF discourses lately.

It would appear what he is really saying is not what is below...

"I’m Going To Show You EXACTLY How To Start Coaching Today… Even If You’re A Complete Newbie…"

But this...

"I’m Going To Show You EXACTLY How To Start CONNING Today… Even If You’re A Complete Newbie…"


I think unfortunately for some people, hopefully few, this is a very attractive offer...

It makes sense, and one would really hope that's what was intended. But I doubt it. It reminds me of a scaled up version of those old "make money by placing small classified ads" scams, where you drop your money in the mail and get back a fifth-generation photocopy that says "place this ad in the classifieds, then copy this sheet and send it to them."

Les isn't exactly a rainbows and lollipops kind of guy. He wasn't giving this as advice. He was pointing out that the fake it until you make it, grab the money and run gang is still going strong. And as long as there are enough people with more daydreams than sense, they'll keep fleecing the marks.

Your only real defense is to not be a mark.

Famous IMer selling a coaching course that teaches you how to become a coach by selling coaching courses to other people who want to become coaches overnight.



I'm sure the upsell on his course will be the latest version of Photoshop, since you'll be faking a lot of your income screenshots so you can attract more "newbies" to your own coaching program.

People are willing to do anything for a quick sale these days, please tell me you won't be the latest to jump on the bandwagon.

Just a bit....what exactly can a newbie coach? The buyer is supposed to buy knowledge/experience,etc....how can a newbies provide that? It's actually fraud! But, hey it's the net no-one actually worries about that!

But with some people anything goes right?

Yes, it is unethical without experience. Even though we have a coaching WSO thread open here, we have invested over $60,000 into coaching ourselves (verifiable) and have been making money in what we teach for years.

Just make sure you do your due diligence when you are looking to hire a coach. A lot of con artists out there. Best of luck.

I think it's okay to do this if you do your research and really know what you're talking about.

I've seen people make millions of dollars as SEO experts when all they did was build a hypothetical site that ranked on page one of Google. The site didn't appear to have any real clients attached to it and years later that's still the case. In other words they claimed to be using it to sell various services to local businesses but those services were never sold. What they're really doing is selling you a product or service to sell to local businesses. And they don't care if you actually sell it or not. I see the same thing with Facebook, Instagram, Shopify it happens quite regularly.

It depends on how good you are at teaching people and what value they get from it. A BIG part of that value is entertainment value. So if you're an entertaining person that people enjoy watching or listening to they will continue to fork over money for your training.

So basically like, a course on udemy talking about: "How to teach on udemy and make bank?"

There's something in the consulting industry (multi-billlion dollar industry) that's called: Train The Trainer

Are they a newbie in their industry or just a newbie at coaching? That's the important distinction.

Someone may have years of experience in a certain field but never thought about coaching others.

The product might show them how to set up a coaching business in their industry.

But no, I don't think you should try to teach someone to play the guitar if you've never strummed one yourself.

Rose

I believe it's unethical. However, if someone wanted to be a coach, they have to start somewhere, right? Maybe don't call yourself a coach ...

Now, if you have no knowledge on the topic then you shouldn't be pretending that you do.

I think it's crazy when folks coach others after have ZERO experience in the field. It's horrible garbage and crazy.

BUT it's really just a matter of opinion.

I believe it's all about how much knowledge you have on the subject. Not how long you've been working in the business.

If you're able to acquire the knowledge from someone who has tried and tested certain strategies and has proven results. I think you should be able to pass that knowledge onto others, being an intermediary.

It would be unethical to answer any questions on a subject that you didn't know anything about

This shows a misunderstanding of the dynamics of teaching and learning.

Having coached/mentored hundreds of people one-on-one on writing and marketing, I can tell you that plenty of smart people can find all the instructions online but are not able to apply them correctly.

It's one thing to think you have followed instructions and another to have actually done so. People have a hard time assessing their own efforts when they are trying to learn something new. Information and application are two very different matters.

For example, I once worked with a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist who was trying to learn copywriting. She read all the guidelines and believed she understood them, but when I went over her assignments, I saw that she had not applied them correctly. With constructive feedback, she "got it" and began producing good work.

Coaching and mentoring are not obsolete. Not by a long shot!

Marcia Yudkin

There is also the question of the speed of learning. With the help of a good coach, someone can quickly learn things that would take years to learn with a process of trial and error.

And secondly, we are not all the same: some people are more self-taught and others are not.

I played poker (for a living) for several years and a good coach allows a player to bring his game to a higher level. All poker players agree with this.

For me, there is no doubt that coaching is valid.

But in fact, going back to OP, you will not succeed in convincing a poker player you are a great player if you do not know how to play...

But many good poker players have been great coaches without prior experience in coaching.

In my field of specialty (safe sourcing and importing) I see an enormous amount of misinformation published by "experts" and "gurus", who are good at marketing their teaching programs, but have only a sketchy knowledge of the reality of the subject in which they are leading people astray.

I have reviewed many courses and blogs by such people and I often find a lot of obsolete information. What is worse is the advice that I see that leads me to think: "Oh No! If the reader does that, it could cost them hundreds or thousands of dollars."

Some of these courses cost thousands, and they get a great following because the courses are marketed so well. One blog I checked out recently had literally hundreds of questions posted, many by users of the course, and there was not a single answer from the promoter. Isn't that unethical?

Walter Hay
Provenchinasourcing