Could YOU say no to $1million from the Dragons' Den?

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74
I used to be pretty active here on the WF, but for the past couple of years life has been pretty hectic, and between some serious family situations and business, time here has been very minimal.

On the business side, one of the big projects has been my involvement with a Canadian based payments company, UseMyServices. I started with them back in 2003, when they first launched as a sales consultant, strictly as an independent, but currently am considered one of the 3 'founders' of the company.

Last May, the company was invited to appear on the Canadian TV show "Dragons' Den" - if you live in the US, it is from the same group that does the Shark Tank in the US. The show was filmed in May, and it was just aired last Wednesday.

I was not able to be there for the taping as they gave us about 36 hrs notice, and I couldn't rearrange my schedule in time to be there - but my 'chart' made it!! (you'll see what I mean if you watch the video!)

Anyway - we were seeking $1m for 5% - and within seconds all 5 Dragons were in on the deal but they wanted 40% and we said no. We had discussed it beforehand, and knowing what we had on the table - we just could not do it.

The show aired last Wednesday night and I have been buried with calls and emails - seems that everyone wants what the Dragons' wanted.

Saying no turned out to be the best thing we could have done, and has definitely garnered a lot more press coverage than if we had said yes!

Anyway - it's been fun, and we are spinning it as much as possible for the PR - and I thought the Warriors might get a hoot out of the video - you can see it here:

UseMyServices Makes Dragons' Den History!

Melody
#main internet marketing discussion forum #$1million #den #dragons
  • If you have that much interest your idea must be solid. IMHO 5% of anything is never going to fly to an investor. Too little return. 40%? Who knows.

    I think if I were you I would still be looking to negotiate. Sometimes it's better to have a small piece of an enormous pie than the whole pie.

    Big business if they like your idea will just take it... and then you get to spend your time and money fighting their attorneys.

    So you had best make sure whatever it is you are doing is legally protected.

    Good luck. Interesting read.
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    • If it was a new company - yes, I would agree - but we've been processing since 2003 - and trust me, 5% was an excellent deal. We have a deal on the table right now for a LOT more than that for the same interest.

      It's the technology that has the value - and we are currently building out two private label platforms for companies that are literally household names.

      1m for 40% would have been giving away the store!

      Melody

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  • Yes, that was pretty much the point. The million would have simply let us expand globally a little faster, but we are already in 11 countries, and open in Mexico next month.

    We have been profitable since the end of the first year.

    Melody
  • I could turn down $1million for 40% yeah.

    $1million ain't what it used to be.

    40% is a huge chunk of lifetime revenue.

    I would have negotiated I guess, in the UK version they get to negotiate and often work on a diminishing gross over a predetermined number of years so.

    40% year 1
    30% year 2
    20% year 3

    The numbers are normally based on the business generating x% of the investment back and so on.

    Yeah I could easily turn down $1million for 40% if my companies worth was already a known variable to me.
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  • I've actually used usemybank a number of times and it's a great alternate payment processor.

    I saw the episode, and would agree that the offer the "dragons" made wasn't fair - although it's hard to really say what a fair valuation is without seeing the financials. There is so much to these pitches that don't air on that show.

    I did understand their comments on other competitors building that competitive edge beforehand and having that first-mover advantage. I've used another instant transfer service by Citadel that was very similar. A company such as Citadel would have the dollars to ramp up their efforts.

    In my MBA course I took an "entrepreneurial finance" course - we had a business owner come in who had made a deal with the dragon's during the first season of the show. He was quite open about how he made the deal with no intention of following through on it unless the terms were changed - it was really just a marketing appearance for him. Today his business is well above and beyond where it was when it aired.

    It's an amazing show that I love watching, but for most businesses they will find better options elsewhere.
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  • Hi Melody

    I'm a big fan of Dragon's Den here in the UK. 5% for $1M would value your business at $20M. Presumably you can justify that valuation. However, if you were able to do so you should have got your investment, so perhaps that was the sticking point?

    EDIT: Just watched the pitch. I have to say that main spokesperson came over as a bit of a shady customer to me so, in answer to your original question: yes, I would have walked away from that offer too.

    Good luck with it.

    Will
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  • I don't get it, what people don't seem to understand is that it is not about the money, the power and influence a Dragon can give you if they make a couple of phonecalls is worth 1000x more than a random venture capitalist that will be licking his chops because you agree to his deal of 5% less than a dragon wanted.

    If a Dragon makes you a reasonable offer then think about it, they often know people and with a partner like that you can get help on other things too...would anyone here turn down our resident Dragon (Allen) if he wanted to promote your ebook but get 50%?

    A newbie affiliate might make 10 sales in his entire year, Allen would sell thousands in the first few days due to his influence, think about it

    40% is a reasonable and satisfactory offer in the Uk for an offer and indeed pretty much anywhere, if someone came into the Den with a 5% offer they would be laughed at lol
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    • Funny you mention that, I forgot to think about that. They've made
      big successes out of many of the deals they made - because of not
      just the money, but the mentorship, relationships, and influence they
      already have.

      In that respect, being as I wasn't in their position - It is a toss up,
      and a decision had to be made...
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    • No. Really it isn't a reasonable and satisfactory offer. Maybe for a 2 year old company that isn't cash positive yet, but it's completely laughable for an 8 year old company with a decent net and profile in a stable, mature industry sector.

      After having been through a couple of startup through M&A cycles on a personal basis, and now venture investing on a part-time basis, I can assure you that it comes down to valuation. Period.

      Influence, connections, power... these are all things that your existing board and executive team should already have in place, and is expected by any serious venture capital firm. True venture capitalists aren't in the business of running companies, etc... They're busy managing their portfolios.

      If a company comes to me looking to help them raise $X dollars of investment, we have to first establish a profile of what their deal can support.

      We calculate the valuation of a company based on hard numbers, and future net value based on a post-capitalization rounds. One stage of capital injection begats the next. All portfolio return calculations that the venture funds use to sell to other investors are based on a specific profile of investment. That's why you see early stage funds in say... mobile software... or infrastructure services... because the due diligence for the business models in those sectors have already been done, ratios established and analysis in place for entire industry sectors.

      When we look at a potential deal, we're looking for an internal rate of return to match the profile of the fund, within the risk profile of the established sector. The upside is calculated against the prospective valuations of the company at cash out... which used to be IPO, but now is usually M&A. (merger & acquisition)

      Obviously, IPO valuations are much higher because the institutional investors used to place a premium on the placement based on their own ability to leverage forward projections into a percentage of their holdings being sold for a higher value on the street. So on a day when a company goes public at a street issue price, the early institutional players will register a portion of their shares for sale on the open market... many cashing out in multiples of intitial return by the close of the trading day in an up market. Sadly, I think a lot of those golden days are behind us as the street is still very conservative with their cash.

      These days, the exit strategy for institutional and venture money seems to be trending toward acquisition, which makes the game even more interesting because you don't have those Wild West upside market returns. Companies doing acquisitions will pay a price for a company, and that's the price. Look at the Microsoft/Yahoo dance for example.

      There's a huge amount of uncommitted cash on the street right now, all looking at the same deals. There are far too few decent deals right now, so investors just hang on to the cash. It actually works in the favor of the company and entrepreneurs because there really is a supply and demand issue weighted towards the companies vs. the cash. Investors are wetting all over themselves to make double digits right now, so a nice cumulative convertible preferred offering with a reasonably fair interest rate will get a lot of play.
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    • It's like comparing apples and oranges .. at best.

      The company in question is/was not the equivalent to a newbie affiliate.
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  • I LOVED the video.

    Man, was that cool...I watch several episodes of shark tank
    and drangons den (uk version).

    That's a lot of pressure, and a huge decision to make on the
    spot in less than a few minutes.

    If you had taken the offer, I bet you would have walked away
    from the deal having thought it over after the show...they
    don't sign contracts on the spot...but rather days after the
    show (from what I've heard).

    Anyways, you and the team made a great decision, your
    excellent business people, and to give up 40% stake for
    the company and it's current evaluaiton...would have been
    insane.

    The dragons were trying to intimidate them with figures,
    but they failed to remember you have already made 2.5
    million in profit.

    Very cool!
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  • Congrats Melody - nice to see you back again.

    Funnily enough, when I started my software company my brother and I spoke about whether to get funding or not and we considered the Dragons Den.

    Our decision was that we wanted to be masters of our own destiny and were not prepared to sell our dream (or part of it) by giving any control to anyone else and we wanted it to succeed or fail on its own merits with us fully in for the ride - all success would be ours and all failure would be ours.

    So, we're still going 3 years later things are looking better than ever. We're now considering selling out and cashing in over the next 2 years.

    I hope your PR serves you well and you reach your goals.

    good luck

    Andy
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  • Good job Melody! I am watching the episode now
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  • Nice!

    $1 million for 5% puts the valuation of the company at $20 million.

    What's the current earnings? (...assuming that you're disclosing that since you were shopping for venture cash on a broadcast tv show... and earning being a major part of that equasion.)

    If they were all jumping on it at that price, my guess is the valuation is much, much higher based on earnings (or future net earnings based on the longer history of the company).
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  • But my feeling is that obviously the Dragons knew something was good about it at the start which is why they all wanted a piece, obviously 1% of the company they were expecting to give away individually is laughable due to it taking years at the current development to make back.

    That is always what you have to remember, it is not 2015 but 2010. What is the company worth now?

    If they had given 40% or even 25% that they probably would've accepted in 5 years they could license it over to paypal and make billions...right now they are a tiny fish in a big pond where their competition could crush them. Big mistake I think but time will tell
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  • I could turn down the million, especially under the circumstances.

    Funny how Kevin O'Leary stopped laughing when he heard how much your company had already earned. His arrogance ("No one turns down a 'milsky'...") and bullying tactics may have made him successful, but I don't think I'd want to be in business with the guy.

    Will
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  • You'll be laughing at that 1 million offer in a few years.

    But the publicity...oh that's worth way more than 1 million. Congrats.
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  • Hi Everyone -

    Wow - stepped away for a meeting and wasn't expecting all of this to come back to!

    First all - the valuation of the company at 20m was entirely accurate, and in fact was actually quite low, because we had deals in the works that we could not disclose due to NDAs at the time. So, what we were asking for was indeed very reasonable and we could have proven the value quite easily during the due diligence that takes place after the show taping, and before the show actually airs.

    The connections that the Dragons represent would actually have been worth more than the money - but again, we already knew what we had on the table - and the firestorm that saying no to the money has created is worth a million all by itself - and we gave up nothing.

    There are some other companies in the same niche - but not with the same technology or the international coverage.

    And since the show aired last week - I have already closed enough contracts to cover the 1m ;-)

    BlueSquares nailed it - the publicity is worth way more than a million!

    And the experience - priceless!

    Melody
  • Just an update to everyone: at the last tally of calls and emails, since the show aired, we have scheduled 6 mtgs with potential investors - not vulture capital types - but real investor partner types, and 4 major merchants, that have the ability to bump the current volume up by another 30%.

    All in all - it was a very productive day ;-)

    Melody
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    • Great Video Melody....You Go Girl, Kick some Dragon Ass!

      Barry
  • To me it is rarely about the money but the connections, and I am unsure as to why the decision was made to stick rigidly at 5% which lets face it is a tiny amount of equity.

    Truthfully, would you accept only 5% for $1,000,000?

    It does have some serious competition and there can be no denying that, and while it could be said that you have some great publicity $20,000,000 turnover per year is next to nothing in global finance when paypal are doing $60,000,000,000...if they wanted they could bring out the same tomorrow and with their established worldwide reputation simply blow you out of the water...it is like what Bill Gates once said, to survive as a little fish you have to make people need you.

    By getting the Dragons and getting them to put your service on all their sites as well as all those of their friends you would've further consolidated your position and gained much needed exposure beyond 15 minutes of fame :p

    Was there really anything wrong with giving them 40% for the first 2-3 years until their investment was repaid and then scaling it back to 20% or so?

    Get. Big. Fast ~ Jeff Bezos
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    • Sparhawke: As I said previously - we could not disclose certain deals on the table at the time of the taping due to NDAs - but trust me, those connections are worth even more than what the Dragons would have brought us. And it was not 40% for the first 2 or 3 years - it was a full 40% equity stake in the company - a HUGE difference. This was not a loan, as your comment indicates - it was an investment and could have cost us hundreds of millions in the long run.

      Also bear in mind that the show does not include ALL of the negotiations - only about half of the session with the Dragon's actually made it on air! We did not stick 'rigidly' at 5% but that was what made it to the air.

      But the bottom line is that we have a solid foundation, with thousands of merchants and customers globally, and we have an exit strategy well in place, that does include being gobbled up by a major name in the industry....and that is all I can say on that topic ;-)

      And yes - we totally believe in the concept.

      Melody
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  • Man I just loved hearing the other side of this. Thanks so much Melody. I watch almost every episode of DD and loved seeing your company tell them no way! I cant stand Kevin!

    Btw, I used to work in payment processing myself on Bay Street (royal bank plaza). I love the idea of this payment method. Is it similar to what Virgin Mobile uses?
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    • Kevin does come across quite strong, doesn't he? LOL - but that is one of the things that makes the show so popular, too! Kind of like Simon on American Idol!

      I haven't checked Virgin's model in awhile but the last time I checked it still required use of a credit card or debit card to do the initial 'topping up' or they bill to the mobile service account.

      We are closer to an echeck type of service - except that we 'ride the rails' of the online banking system, and move the funds from the customer's bank account in real time. It's done using various technologies, depending on what is inherent at each particular bank, and after 7 years in operation, we have a 99.999999% Good Funds Model - it's about as close as you can get to a cash transaction online.

      We have a huge customer base in the internet gaming niche - we count Party Gaming and William Hill among our clients - and I am about to close a deal with a very well known social gaming client for our new micro-payment service.

      So - trust me when I say, that saying 'no' was a good thing for us ;-)

      Melody
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  • Melody I Was watching that yesterday, I think that show is a great show.

    I LOVE when Brian spoke and Kevin started laughing and very quickly was quited and was interested by the 5 million, great job thats a tough industry.

    Best of luck
    Mukul
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    • I liked the LAST sentence in that clip: "Dragons... YOU made a big mistake!"

      It shows that the team believes in their dream.

      Now, THAT'S worth a million - in my book!

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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  • I guess there is a limit to the number of people you can thank in a day - and I have run out!

    So to everyone who posted - THANK YOU!

    Melody
  • Just watched the video...

    a) Kevin Leary, LOL at this guy.

    "it's a hell of a deal for you"

    Oh, well in that case, we are convinced Kevin.

    Talk about being full of crap. They had already told them they made $2.5 mill profit in 36 months and they want 40% for $1 mill ??

    b) The chick on the panel was the only smart one there, she read the situation . The others followed like sheep with Leary .

    c) They didn't come in with a piece of paper at all. They came in with a story board showing a process and company already making nearly a million bucks profit a year.

    d) This is a damm clever little idea, as I presume the fees are non existent as you're simply pulling from your own bank account.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Authorise.net or Paypal etc jump on this, Paypal might want to grab it just to squash it.

    If it took hold , a lot of folks might well be asking , why the hell am I paying PP fees.

    That panel were full of themselves, the only people who made a mistake was the rest of the panel for following Leary's lead and not talking percentages.
  • SimonHarrison: You are closer to the truth than I can comment on publicly ;-) but there are two companies whose names are, quite literally, household words, pretty much around the world that we are in discussions with. But these kinds of deals do not happen over night, and we simply cannot discuss them in any way until we are given the green light to do so.

    Mukul: No holds, no reserves, no set-up fees

    Melody
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    • Hi Melody,
      That's fantastic. Well done to you for getting on Dragon's Den. I'm an avid watcher of Dragon's Den here in the UK (UK version). Unfortunately the UK show seems to attract some wacky people that many appear with an 'idea'!!
      I guess it's difficult deciding about investment in your company. My brother has recently had a decision too make after he was approached by a investment company to take a major share of his pretty new authority website. My brother decided that while a signicant money investment was good..the fact they wanted 75% and him to be a paid empoyee wasn't worth it from his point of view.

      Rich
  • Wow... Your guys did the right thing. I hope that they do a follow up so that we can see those smug looks wiped off of their faces... lol.
  • Banned
    [DELETED]
  • John and Gary -

    Guys, you totally 'get it'!!

    The show is entertainment, and the reality that takes place OFF SCREEN after the show is where the real deals are made.

    Not everyone that gets a "YES" onscreen gets the money after the due diligence period - and not all of the "no's" disappear into oblivion and never hear from any of the Dragons again either......

    Again - life is good, and looking better every day.

    Mel
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    • Melody, one of my favorite parts of the Shark Tank and UK DD (haven't found where to watch the Canadian version) is when they go back and follow up with previous "winners and losers".

      Now, thanks to you, I get to see a bit of what goes on behind the scenes.

      I thank you, and I hope you remember to keep us little people up to date on how things go...
  • This is one of the most interesting threads.

    The show has some good business lessons, learning from people who are big business tycoons and understanding how they think and respond, I learn a lot from it.

    Dont believe everything you see as being the full picture.
  • We were very fortunate because it was a fantastic experience for us and we are leveraging it to the hilt (the power of press releases!) but it can also be risky - I have also seen people that have put their heart and soul into their projects and walk off in tears when they were told it would never fly.

    And you also have to have plans in place ready to go the moment the show airs and you are 'free' to start talking about the experience.

    My press release was done days earlier and sent out as soon as the show aired ;-)

    Mel
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    • In reality Mel, this might be the best thing for them. We've all seen the pitches that leave us dumbfounded over how someone could think their business idea was a good one. Yet they continued to put money into it. It might sting in the shortrun, but if it helps them fold a losing hand than it's for the best.
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  • Just watched the video. Fantastic to stay so strong, it must have been so hard to walk away from a million. I wish you and your company all the best over the coming months!

    Steve.
  • Thank you! It was not easy - but we had spent a LOT of time discussing the options, what would work and what wouldn't work for us.

    All in all - the experience has been terrific for us.

    Melody
  • If you are happy of the result all I can say then is well done, maybe it isn't what I would've done...hell, I wouldn't even go to the Canadian Dragons Den as they are a little too predatory for my liking but I always try to find value beyond money, maybe not right away, but somewhere even 10 deals down the line those connections could come back
  • Loved your story, and given you position... yes I would have said No.
  • I like the video very much!!!
  • Here's the update on our Dragons' Den story: just got a call from my partners in Toronto - seems that Rogers Telecom & Blackberry are running a TV commercial showing our DD pitch, saluting the company's business innovation!!!

    Phones are ringing off the hook!!

    FUN!!!

    Melody
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  • Thanks for the great story Melody.

    I'm not seeing any link to a video on that page.
    Has it been removed?

    cheers,
    Eric G.
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    • Hi Eric - We just changed the format a bit of the viewer and it is back up now!

      Hopefully, we will have the TV commercial from Rogers/Blackberry posted soon too!

      Melody
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  • Hi
    I have been trying to launch a new product and get investors interested. How did you get on Dragons Den. I have been trying to find details for Shark Tank. My product is call WiperWaver there are over 120,000,000 vehicles in the US that can take our product but we have no idea how to launch a product into the market place.
    Thanks for your help. wiperwaver.com
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    Could YOU say no to $1million from the Dragons' Den?

    I used to be pretty active here on the WF, but for the past couple of years life has been pretty hectic, and between some serious family situations and business, time here has been very minimal. On the business side, one of the big projects has been my involvement with a Canadian based payments company, UseMyServices. I started with them back in 2003, when they first launched as a sales consultant, strictly as an independent, but currently am considered one of the 3 'founders' of the company.