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The Death of Graphic Design

by iamchrisgreen
53 replies
Ok, sorry for the dramatic heading, but I think this is quite an important topic.

I know that many designers have become marketers because they can't make the money or charge the fees to make design work.

I'm trained as a graphic designer, and over the last 10 years i've noticed a real lack of respect for the skill of graphic design.

You can get a logo created for 10 dollars whereas if I was commissioned by a company to look at their logo and brand I would be looking at a starting point of at least $500.

So i'd love to hear your thoughts.

Is design a big factor in marketing?

Can designers make a decent living still?

Is the copy more important and any old graphics will do?

Thanks in advance...
#death #design #graphic
  • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
    Originally Posted by freelance4money View Post


    Is design a big factor in marketing?

    Can designers make a decent living still?

    Is the copy more important and any old graphics will do?

    Thanks in advance...
    In order:

    Yes
    Yes
    Yes (depending)

    Is design a big factor in marketing?

    Design isn't just about header and footer graphics, it's also about readability... if the copy is great, but isn't presented in a way that makes it extremely readable, or formatted in a way that the "fly by skim reader" can't get the information they want - then, the copy is wasted.

    Can designers make a decent living still?

    I make a relatively good living as a designer, and although I'm planning on diversifying - it's not because I can't make my fees... which are way above most of the "cheap" designers, it's because design is labour intensive, and my time is better spent with my girlfriend, watching movies etc.

    Is the copy more important and any old graphics will do?

    Depends on what you mean by "will do".

    Great copy & readable layout + great graphics = will sell most (probably)
    Great copy & readable layout + crap graphics = will sell (probably)
    Crap copy + great graphics = will not sell as well (probably)
    Crap copy + crap graphics = will sell even less (probably)

    I say probably, because each case, and test will produce different results.
    It's not about having a "nice looking" page. It's more a case of what the graphics can ADD to the message.

    With enough traffic, you could probably slap an order button on a blank page with only a headline, and make at least one sale.
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    • Profile picture of the author iamchrisgreen
      Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post


      Can designers make a decent living still?

      I make a relatively good living as a designer, and although I'm planning on diversifying - it's not because I can't make my fees... which are way above most of the "cheap" designers, it's because design is labour intensive, and my time is better spent with my girlfriend, watching movies etc.
      How do you get the majority of your clients? Just out of interest?
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      • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
        Originally Posted by freelance4money View Post

        How do you get the majority of your clients? Just out of interest?
        Repeat business & recommendations. I've built up a lot of goodwill with my clients. However, if I started again, from scratch I'm pretty sure I could easily get back to the same level.

        PRICE is only one factor in the marketing of a service business - I don't fear minsite or ecover designers that will work for peanuts, why?

        Because they sweep up all the potential clients who want to pay peanuts, and invariably get monkeys - leaving the clients who respect quality to continue paying for the skills that they value.

        What then happens is quite interesting, and I've seen it happen time and again:

        Scenario 1:
        a) Designer gets too many clients at a ridiculously low rate
        b) Designer can't keep up
        c) Designer fails to meet deadlines
        d) Designer has to refund and/or loses clients to other designers
        e) Designer burns out and tries to find another business

        Scenario 2:
        a) Designer gets lots of clients at a ridiculously low rate
        b) Designer can keep up
        c) Designer keeps those customers (at low rate, because that's what they expect to pay), but can't grow the business because they're working at full capacity and only just making a living

        [edited to add scenario 3]

        Scenario 3:
        a) Designer gets lots of clients at a ridiculously low rate
        b) Designer has to spend less time on each design
        c) Designer can't deliver quality in limited time
        d) Customers decide to look elsewhere, of the opinion that you have to pay for quality

        I mentioned in another thread, that you have to "train your customers", what I mean is - you have to teach them to expect quality, and teach them that quality is WORTH the money (some clients know this before they approach you) - when an existing client tries to save some money and they look elsewhere and fail to find the same quality and service that you offer, they'll come back and NEVER look elsewhere again.

        Like I said, price is just ONE factor on which you can compete...

        I much prefer to be paid a fair rate for my time, and be proud of the work I deliver as a result of not having to take on too much work.

        I could write a book on marketing a freelance service, and at no point in that book would I ever advise anyone to build their business on rock-bottom prices - unless there's a very good reason for doing so:

        Other people doing so, is not a good reason - because there's plenty of work to go round.
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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    I've noticed this trend as well. I create my own graphics so I am not faced with paying someone else to do it. I have wanted to offer graphic services to others, but many internet marketers don't seem to be willing to pay higher prices. The ones who are usually already have graphics people they work with.

    This also applies to creating custom videos for the web. I see $7 and $17 videos offers and I am not willing to lower my prices to match them. The sad thing is that those low prices are often introductory prices and as soon as the price goes up, the response dwindles down.

    Acquiring and learning Photoshop, Illustrator, and the other software programs needed costs a lot and takes a lot of time because they usually have high learning curves. Not something to just be thrown away. People who lowball their prices must not realize they are shooting themselves in the foot when they could charge and get a higher return for their time.

    That being said, there are a few well-known graphics companies that do beautiful work and are paid handsomely. Maybe the question is, are they hiring?!
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    • Profile picture of the author iamchrisgreen
      Originally Posted by TerrieS View Post

      That being said, there are a few well-known graphics companies that do beautiful work and are paid handsomely. Maybe the question is, are they hiring?!
      Can you name a few for us? Thanks.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        ** DISCLAIMER ** This is my own experience and not to be taken as fact.

        I am a cheap SOB. Ask anybody here.

        To that end, I learned how to design my own ecovers and headers. I am
        no Karl Warren by any stretch of the imagination but my work is passable.

        IOW...it doesn't look like total crap. I've seen worse. Much worse.

        I earn 6 figures a year from my sales pages, all of which I might add, I also
        write myself.

        I am no Michel Fortin.

        I don't have to be.

        Could I make more money than I do having a kick ass pro design my copy
        and graphics? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?

        Do I care?

        Nope. As long as I can earn what I earn doing it myself, that's good
        enough for me.

        So to answer your question, anybody with at least a fair amount of skill
        as a designer can get away with doing his own stuff.

        At least that has been my experience.

        Your mileage may vary.
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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    Off the top of my head, one site I like is: MinisiteFrog.com ? Professional Minisite Design Service and eCover Graphics

    Another is: Graphic Mavericks
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  • Profile picture of the author DB Curtiss
    Graphic design was my original line of work. From there I branched out into illustration, t shirt printing, television graphics/sfx, music videos , commercials, etc.

    And guess what? There was always people willing to do it cheaper no matter what the line of work. Sometimes they're starting out and need to build a portfolio, sometimes they're desperate. Stand your ground. You know if you have talent.

    My best way of getting business was through customer referrals and people just running across my work. If you want to find out who is doing good work, check the following magazines:
    Communication Arts
    Print
    How
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  • Profile picture of the author badboy_Nick
    Originally Posted by freelance4money View Post

    Ok, sorry for the dramatic heading, but I think this is quite an important topic.

    I know that many designers have become marketers because they can't make the money or charge the fees to make design work.

    I'm trained as a graphic designer, and over the last 10 years i've noticed a real lack of respect for the skill of graphic design.

    You can get a logo created for 10 dollars whereas if I was commissioned by a company to look at their logo and brand I would be looking at a starting point of at least $500.

    So i'd love to hear your thoughts.

    Is design a big factor in marketing?

    Can designers make a decent living still?

    Is the copy more important and any old graphics will do?

    Thanks in advance...
    I know that the creative sector (especially freelance) doesnt get a lot of work. Never really has.

    Obviously, it isnt dead but it's definitely not a growth industry.

    Any questions let me know

    Nick
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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    Word of mouth is really the best form of advertising. Years ago when I had an upholstery business, I never advertised. All of my work came from happy customers who told their friends.

    Now that I think about it, I am not using this fact in my own business - duh!
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary King
    There will always be those at the top of the price range, those racing to the bottom and those that prefer to do it themselves.

    The minisite game is a cut-throat one, but you can make some cash if you're fast. If you get stuck on the absolute minuscule details you'll go insane (IMHO) doing minisites for $29 when it takes you 12 hours to do.

    If you freelance, consider offline too! There are lots of local businesses in every area I've been to that have crummy web sites or bad brochures that could use some fixing up. Kick some doors, maybe even with a mock-up in hand (controlling your up front time of course). All success.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I was a freelance designer on Elance for years and was driven away by the lowballing offshore providers who will do Corporate Ids for pennies. I made a good living for quite a few years and was one of the top Elance providers, but I just got sick of competing in that arena.

    Graphic designers are still in demand. Not so much for those millions of generic looking sales pages with BIG RED LETTERS. That's not graphic design and I hear most of the people who market with them say that design does not matter with them.

    In my business where I sell niche blogs, design does matter and it's what sets me apart from the many who just put up some bland looking blogs to sell.

    It still matters online, whether marketers realize it or not. I frequently leave sites that I was driven to by a headline or something simply because the site is so amateurish that I don't believe that someone who throws a site up like that could possibly create a product of any quality. That's perception and if you put junk up, a lot of people will leave.

    If you are attempting to create a long term business, branding is important and you're not going to get branding for pennies ... not real branding.

    In the offline world, it matters a great deal. Everything you send to a customer represents your company and brand, from your logo, website to brochures and invoices. Throw together crappy looking company print materials and you will lose money.

    I still get the occasional request for print materials from people who remember me from Elance because they liked the quality. I was not the cheapest on Elance, but a lot of people hired me for the quality and customer service.

    Shame on Elance for treating their US providers the way they do. They are a US based company and strongly promote hiring offshore providers and even allowed (until I raised a HUGE stink) offshore providers to list US addresses to trick customers in believing that they were a US company. One million dollar design company from Brazil got away with that for years.

    Real graphic designers won't be found on your "graphic design contest" sites ... sites designed specifically to exploit graphic designers and get them to work for free. I have no interest in submitting proofs and ideas for free to compete in a design contest.

    It's a lot more difficult to make money online with graphic design than it used to be because the product has been so devalued by offshore providers and "contests", but I know there are companies who are willing to pay for quality branding. Put up an outstanding online portfolio and market both online and offline and never devalue your work by participating in contests or competing at offshore pricing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Is design a big factor in marketing?

      Can designers make a decent living still?

      Is the copy more important and any old graphics will do?
      1. I think it depends on the niche and the type of marketer. While you can sell on an ugly page, this won't work as well for some products and niches.

      2. It will depend on how you market yourself as a designer. I think there is a lot of money to be made. For instance, I got headway theme, which can give you a drag and drop on the design, but I looked at a lot of peoples blogs that had no design sense what so ever - so there will always be those who need help with those things. Also, it does not come with a banner - so that is something that needs to be ordered.

      As a designer you can learn to master one of these types of tools and offer to do the customization for people.

      I like nice looking sites, but just don't have the time to play with that all day.
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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    Dang it, Suzanne! This is what I hate about this forum.

    Here I am, minding my own business, perusing the WF before I start work, when I innocently post an answer in a thread. I go back to check on new posts when, to my horror, I see the words "Drop Dead Gorgeous Gardening Niche Blog" in someone's signature file and, like rubberneckers passing a car wreck, I stop everything to go look.

    Drat!

    Yes, it is drop dead gorgeous! My husband is going to kill me, but I can't resist. Shame on you for your beautiful graphics and superb color choice. The only consolation I have is that I REALLY dislike your avatar because it scares me so - I take comfort in the fact that not all of your graphics appeal to me!
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  • Profile picture of the author Pat Ordenes
    Totally agree with Karl...
    Bottom line, you can make a great living doing anything really, if you position yourself right... and there will always be the guy that can do it for cheaper... don't try to compete on price. You'll always lose.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      I think the biggest, or at least one of the top, factor for a graphic designer to be successful is the ability to market themselves.

      I know of one graphic designer (locally) that did a lot of business in the area. This designer's designs were often very recognizable, mostly because everything looked alike. Same fonts, same techniques, sometimes even the same colors.

      And, this designer charged (and made) big bucks.

      A good part of that had to be marketing, which included some degree of ego-stroking as well. I think some business owners felt that they had "made it" when they hired an independent graphic designer as opposed to using the in-house graphic designers of a local print shop. It became something to brag about. "We had a graphic designer design our new brochure" -- as if that was important to anyone other than the business owner.

      One of this graphic designer's shortcomings was not having a full grasp of how printing actually works. Thus, a fair number of clients would be shocked at the price when they went to get bids on the printing of their jobs.

      There were and are other graphic designers that do work for less, and do better work, but they are often overshadowed. It seems to me that the graphic designers that are the most successful (at least locally) are not the ones that are the most creative, the most knowledgeable or even the most affordable, but the ones that excel at marketing their services.

      So, the fact that there are cheaper graphic designers out there should not be a stumbling block.
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  • Profile picture of the author neo3006
    I am actually a digital communication student right now, and graphic design was hard at first to understand, was one of my hardest classes, but boy did i learn alot, yes I have taken photoshop, illustrator, taking in-design as we speak, besides html, xml, and some other courses, I am taking this because i enjoy it and in the long run I think it will help me in doing stuff later on in here as well, which I realized awhile back, its true what you get is what you pay for, and i thought about doing some work in here but am relunct due to I don't want to disappoint anyone or bite off more then I can chew, I still might do it later not sure as of yet, but keep focused and never give up.
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  • Profile picture of the author C0DeZeR0
    Most Of Us Need Some Quick Cash So We Transfer Into IM Instead Of Design ..

    More Designers Over There ...
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    Design isn't dead you just need to upgrade some skills a bit. Trying to break into good money designing for web pages is difficult. Now you need to have a little programming skills. Not so much that you have to be a programmer but enough so you can work with a programming team. the days of graphics, text and video only on a site are coming to an end. In the future most sites will be interactive applications and designers with interactive skill sets still command decent money.

    Its also a problem of market. The average Affiliate marketer and CPA sites are not going to lay out thousands of dollars (or even hundreds).
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Here's the thing...

      Great design isn't obvious. It just works.

      For a marketing site, or any site beyond a designer portfolio for that matter, if you look at it and and tell yourself what a great design it has, the designer has failed.

      As Karl mentioned in his first post, there's more to it than just doing a header and footer.

      I'm guessing that with enough patience you could teach a chimp to stack up a few pieces of clip art and then crop a header out of it. Then you teach the chimp how to copy/paste a headline and which button to push to run the cover design script and you have a cover.

      Anyone else remember the ads where the "web designers" were trying to impress the buying executive with spinning logos, dancing exclamation points and flaming headlines?

      I don't want "cutting edge" design or "award winning" design. I just want design that helps me sell more stuff...
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    • Profile picture of the author bgmacaw
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      Its also a problem of market. The average Affiliate marketer and CPA sites are not going to lay out thousands of dollars (or even hundreds).
      But that's not where the real money is anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    The changing global economy will go hard on all freelancers - there
    is no way you can fight the tide of lower-priced competition.

    You have to find a niche those competitors cannot play in. Local
    is one way to do it. You have to learn to market yourself, diversify,
    develop your own lines of posters, coffee mugs, t-shirts, comix,
    your own niche websites.

    You will get killed trying to market your "graphic design services"
    online. You need to have something special that cuts through the
    noise in the marketplace.

    Freelancing is a tough game. Get used to it, and work hard on your
    own stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author richhaz
    I worked at an ad agency for 12 years and used to sell web sites for 3K-10k+ and most of the time SEO wasn't a big part of the package. It's amazing to see what you can get done for hundreds of dollars now...with SEO.

    I believe there will always be a market for the very best designers because technology cannot replace original artistic ability. The key to being successful in graphic design in the future will be not only having great design ability but also becoming a student of direct response marketing, so that you know what really works in the marketplace vs. what is just fluff designed to win awards.
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  • Profile picture of the author digitalcovergirl
    My business is a great success using word of mouth, before WF more than 80% of my business is offline and my clients would refer me to their co-workers, their friends and family, so I can see how competition is very high on the internet, when offering the same service for a $100 or more compared to $10 you see on WF. I see ads like $10 ecovers in 1 hour, and I'm like WOW that's fast and when I look at some of the samples, I can see why so cheap and so fast. There is no quality, no substance, just an ecover with dated or unrelated pictures and plain text. I have been designing ecovers for a while now and when a client contacts my firm for a job, it takes me way more than 1 hour to come up with a concept, trust me there is a lot that goes in to it. Design does matter a lot to me; I will truly not buy a product if the design or packaging is unattractive. I remember when offering a WSO someone made a comment which was kind of strange, because the comment is no longer there, they had made a comment and said," Your prices are pretty high, I sure do hope you are worth it". Comments like that had made me think twice on whether I want to continue to offer my services here. What is wrong with paying more for quality? Now that's my question, anyone?
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    • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
      Originally Posted by digitalcovergirl View Post

      What is wrong with paying more for quality? Now that's my question, anyone?
      People don't actually understand how a good design, at its basic level (i.e. layout) can help them increase sales.

      Design is the last thing on the list for most product creators, they will pay top money for a copywriter, ghostwriter for their ebook, link building service, 75% for affiliates etc.

      But, because design isn't "important" according to some of the top flight MMO marketers. It's an afterthought.

      Let me tell you why design isn't "important" - yet...

      Because people like Frank Kern, and friends haven't yet written a product to tell you that it is, and haven't got a back end service (of top 10 designers) to cash in on the influx of "wow, design really is important" converts that would be rushing to renovate their salespage.

      I'm not singling out Frank, I'm just using his name as an illustration as to how one marketer can cause a shift in the thinking of a market.

      For example, if Frank Kern said that a pink headline and white text on a black background converted better in tests than the traditional red on white with black text. How many people do you think would blindly follow?
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Gatica
        Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

        People don't actually understand how a good design, at its basic level (i.e. layout) can help them increase sales.

        Design is the last thing on the list for most product creators, they will pay top money for a copywriter, ghostwriter for their ebook, link building service, 75% for affiliates etc.

        But, because design isn't "important" according to some of the top flight MMO marketers. It's an afterthought.

        Let me tell you why design isn't "important" - yet...

        Because people like Frank Kern, and friends haven't yet written a product to tell you that it is, and haven't got a back end service (of top 10 designers) to cash in on the influx of "wow, design really is important" converts that would be rushing to renovate their salespage.

        I'm not singling out Frank, I'm just using his name as an illustration as to how one marketer can cause a shift in the thinking of a market.

        For example, if Frank Kern said that a pink headline and white text on a black background converted better in tests than the traditional red on white with black text. How many people do you think would blindly follow?
        I am going to have to agree with you on that one Karl, and some of your earlier posts. (some of what I have been guilty of)

        My thoughts on graphic design is this: without graphic design in ANY field not just the MMO, niche marketing, p*nus enlargement, the online adult industry niches. what are you going to see? nothing but red and black letters on a white screen with videos.

        Design is often the first thing anything physical is started on towards its path to production. From cars, tv's, your monitors being used to read this, etc..

        There is a reason why so many peole get into design. because it can be profitable. I have strayed away from doing custom minisite design somewhat and mainly do referrals and word of mouth now, to focus on product creation, and other endeavors but it graphic design always be my "first love".

        I will no longer offer any custom work under a 150 bucks. I started out offering low cost design and it nearly killed me, im still paying for those mistakes.

        But to answer three questions:

        Is Design a factor?
        I tend to say yes simply because humans are visual creatures (ie. porn)
        thats not to say all sites need graphics I have a couple that have sparse graphics that convert well simply because of the content.

        Can designers make a decent living?
        Yes if your willing to put in the work. Differentiate yourself from everyone else. Instead of trying to design for the MMO niche, try other niches, dogs, painting, scrapbooking etc. I see a lot of sites that could benefit with a graphical makeover.

        Is copy better then good graphics, old graphics etc..
        You need copy, I will be the first to admit once a visitor sees the eye candy, then it comes down to copy. you need a balance and a good designer will understand that.

        just my 1.5 cents
        Jeremy
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        • Profile picture of the author digitalcovergirl
          I will no longer offer any custom work under a 150 bucks. I started out offering low cost design and it nearly killed me, im still paying for those mistakes.
          I agree with you, I will no longer offer any services under a $100. Before just going into ecovers and product branding, I did logos, stationary etc. for $40, I pretty much went bald pulling my hair out with so many demands, revisions, concepts for the price I offered. I got so many emails on a daily basis asking could I lower my price, and to be honest I don't think my prices are even higher enough!
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          • Profile picture of the author KarlWarren
            Originally Posted by digitalcovergirl View Post

            I got so many emails on a daily basis asking could I lower my price, and to be honest I don't think my prices are even higher enough!
            NO, is a very powerful word.
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            • Profile picture of the author digitalcovergirl
              Originally Posted by KarlWarren View Post

              NO, is a very powerful word.
              Very true, I agree 100%
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  • Profile picture of the author FloridaRay
    Is design a big factor in marketing?
    Yes! No one wants to look at a poorly designed website or graphic.

    Can designers make a decent living still?
    Yes they can! If they are good. Not every designer makes it to the top though. If you know what you're doing...then yes.

    Is the copy more important and any old graphics will do?
    It depends. Old graphics can do...if they are superior.
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  • Profile picture of the author mmurtha
    Hey freelance4money and Karl,

    That is true for the IM niche/market - and I've seen that happen with several things.

    But, there are other markets, and ones people would pay high prices. I know a guy who worked his way up the ladder for about 2 years - now he has a good list of steady customers who pay well. He hasn't taken on a new client in 3 years and doesn't need to.

    He creates anything from logos and buttons to cartoon characters, and the majority of the work is for the small stuff, not the cartoons.

    It all comes down to how good of a graphics designer you are, how persistant you are, who you know, the market you are fitting into, and what's going on in that market as to whether or not you make good money at it.

    It's basically the same thing for any other gift/skill/trade when you think about it.

    For instance (and this is part of what I think Karl was saying), take a looking at what's been happening with ghostwriters here on this forum and in IM in the past year and a half. Some ghostwriters got together and pushed for the prices to go up by simply starting a thread or two here in this forum, and hicking up their prices. It wasn't about how many were involved, but who was involved.

    Yes, some people kept the lower prices, but the ones that know what they are doing and offer good quality charge 3-5 Xs more and up per article, ebook, transcript, etc ...

    Markets are being made every day, and prices within those markets are being driven upwards.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ricci Cox
    Great design will NEVER die. (although I am biased because I spent over 9 years as a professional designer!)

    Having a product/website that looks great (and professional) is VERY important...

    A lot of people don't realize that we judge design on a sub-consious level. For instance, if your potential customer (traffic) goes to a badly designed/layed-out sales page they will click away 9 times out of 10.

    Equally if your product looks like it was designed by an amuteur on a PC in their bedroom - that will turn potential customers off too.

    Getting/making a well designed product and website is a vital - key part of being successful and making sales in my opinion and experience....
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  • Profile picture of the author Kunle Olomofe
    OK, I'm just throwing this one out there to whoever wants to catch it...

    If you're an ace at designing graphics AND you're finding it HARD to get SERIOUS clients that will pay TOP DOLLAR for you to do the graphics FOR them...

    Why not charge to teach them graphic design YOUR WAY or teach a member (or members) of their staff?

    How does this help you?

    1. Well, it will ensure that you at least make some good money before these guys go and learn it from someone else.

    2. It will also help put better graphic design out there so you don't have to keep seeing junk graphics that tick you off made by people like Steve W Kidding!

    And finally...

    3. I believe you can still charge TOP dollar for graphic design lessons and the best part is...

    You don't have to make it a one off deal for some or even any of your clients...

    You can start a membership training site/program where you give away secrets to graphic design that other graphic designers would probably put out hits on you for

    Well, not literally or what would be the point eh?

    But, hopefully you're getting the idea...

    Hold a 3 - 6 month graphic design boot camp and get members to pay you $27 - $97 a month (or more if you're really an ace's ace) to discover how to design like you do...

    Limit entry to your classes to increase value and fill up quickly...

    Simply create videos and/or PDF manuals showing how you come up with great designs for multiple niches...

    You can show folks how to design ecovers, headers+footers, buttons, and even do entire kick ass blog designs the kind they see but can not duplicate on their own.

    Allow say 1,000 people per "class". Even if you hit only 10% of that mark, you'll be doing great at $2700 - $9700 a month round the year, possibly totally hands free once your tutorials are made you won't need to keep teaching LIVE over and over--though you'd be available to answer questions and maybe make more videos if needed.

    But, the fun part would be that there will always be new students for this because more and more companies and individuals who don't like to pay top dollar for graphics will pay top dollar to learn how to avoid paying top dollar and make SUPER graphics on their own.

    Like I said, this is just an idea, it probably already exists...

    I'd be doing it if I could draw a stick man that actually could pass for a stick man

    So, if I find a class like that, I'd sign up, and I don't doubt for a minute there'd be a good market for this because...

    THOUSANDS OF IMERS DOWNLOAD "FREE GRAPHIC/BLOG TEMPLATES" ALL DAY LONG, ALL YEAR ROUND AND KEEP WISHING THEY COULD JUST WHIP UP GREAT UNIQUE STUFF THEMSELVES... ONLY FEW IF ANYONE IS WILLING TO TEACH ALL THE SECRETS YOU GURU GRAPHIC WIZ KIDS KNOW...

    Bottom line, instead of belly aching over the issue, a real entrepreneur would figure out a way to make cash off of the problem you have so rightfully figured out.

    It's not about competing or not competing on price... The fact is that the world is getting smaller everyday thanks to the web and new computer technology, so within your easy reach are gonna be millions of do-it-yourself wannabe CEO's and small and even big companies that want as much of the work they usually outsource at huge fees (or at low fees for OK quality) done in-house...

    You can be the Guru who takes them to their Promise Land. Or you can figure out how to convince them to buy something they don't want to pay for.

    The ball is totally in your court guys.

    Many Cheers,

    Kunle Olomofe
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    • Profile picture of the author digitalcovergirl
      Originally Posted by Kunle Olomofe View Post

      OK, I'm just throwing this one out there to whoever wants to catch it...

      If you're an ace at designing graphics AND you're finding it HARD to get SERIOUS clients that will pay TOP DOLLAR for you to do the graphics FOR them...

      Why not charge to teach them graphic design YOUR WAY or teach a member (or members) of their staff?

      How does this help you?

      1. Well, it will ensure that you at least make some good money before these guys go and learn it from someone else.

      2. It will also help put better graphic design out there so you don't have to keep seeing junk graphics that tick you off made by people like Steve W Kidding!

      And finally...

      3. I believe you can still charge TOP dollar for graphic design lessons and the best part is...

      You don't have to make it a one off deal for some or even any of your clients...

      You can start a membership training site/program where you give away secrets to graphic design that other graphic designers would probably put out hits on you for

      Well, not literally or what would be the point eh?

      But, hopefully you're getting the idea...

      Hold a 3 - 6 month graphic design boot camp and get members to pay you $27 - $97 a month (or more if you're really an ace's ace) to discover how to design like you do...

      Limit entry to your classes to increase value and fill up quickly...

      Simply create videos and/or PDF manuals showing how you come up with great designs for multiple niches...

      You can show folks how to design ecovers, headers+footers, buttons, and even do entire kick ass blog designs the kind they see but can not duplicate on their own.

      Allow say 1,000 people per "class". Even if you hit only 10% of that mark, you'll be doing great at $2700 - $9700 a month round the year, possibly totally hands free once your tutorials are made you won't need to keep teaching LIVE over and over--though you'd be available to answer questions and maybe make more videos if needed.

      But, the fun part would be that there will always be new students for this because more and more companies and individuals who don't like to pay top dollar for graphics will pay top dollar to learn how to avoid paying top dollar and make SUPER graphics on their own.

      Like I said, this is just an idea, it probably already exists...

      I'd be doing it if I could draw a stick man that actually could pass for a stick man

      So, if I find a class like that, I'd sign up, and I don't doubt for a minute there'd be a good market for this because...

      THOUSANDS OF IMERS DOWNLOAD "FREE GRAPHIC/BLOG TEMPLATES" ALL DAY LONG, ALL YEAR ROUND AND KEEP WISHING THEY COULD JUST WHIP UP GREAT UNIQUE STUFF THEMSELVES... ONLY FEW IF ANYONE IS WILLING TO TEACH ALL THE SECRETS YOU GURU GRAPHIC WIZ KIDS KNOW...

      Bottom line, instead of belly aching over the issue, a real entrepreneur would figure out a way to make cash off of the problem you have so rightfully figured out.

      It's not about competing or not competing on price... The fact is that the world is getting smaller everyday thanks to the web and new computer technology, so within your easy reach are gonna be millions of do-it-yourself wannabe CEO's and small and even big companies that want as much of the work they usually outsource at huge fees (or at low fees for OK quality) done in-house...

      You can be the Guru who takes them to their Promise Land. Or you can figure out how to convince them to buy something they don't want to pay for.

      The ball is totally in your court guys.

      Many Cheers,

      Kunle Olomofe

      Just by reading this post, this reminds me of that old saying " Those who can't, Teach". That might be a good business but for a company hiring someone to teach a staff member graphic design, well I never heard of any company resorting to that, now there maybe some that do, but most of the time and from what I know, most companies hire Freelancers, In-House designers for their Marketing Dept.(employed by the company) or the company contracts with a Design Firm, who are already experienced and thats for even very small companies. Thats like Wal-Mart hiring a lawyer to teach someone law for their legal dept. would you trust it? Just because you teach someone a skill does not mean that they will be any good at the craft right away, for them to get to that level may take a while, and while you are waiting for them to advance you are need of graphics. This will lead the company to seek out someone to design those graphics that have the training, experience and passion to get the job done.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kunle Olomofe
        Originally Posted by digitalcovergirl View Post

        Just by reading this post, this reminds me of that old saying " Those who can't, Teach". That might be a good business but for a company hiring someone to teach a staff member graphic design, well I never heard of any company resorting to that, now there maybe some that do, but most of the time and from what I know, most companies hire Freelancers, In-House designers for their Marketing Dept.(employed by the company) or the company contracts with a Design Firm, who are already experienced and thats for even very small companies. Thats like Wal-Mart hiring a lawyer to teach someone law for their legal dept. would you trust it? Just because you teach someone a skill does not mean that they will be any good at the craft right away, for them to get to that level may take a while, and while you are waiting for them to advance you are need of graphics. This will lead the company to seek out someone to design those graphics that have the training, experience and passion to get the job done.
        Just by reading this post, this reminds me of that old saying "Those who have made up their minds can't ever see the sense in what others are saying"

        OK it's a new saying so shoot me.

        Frankly, I fail to see how telling an ACE designer to teach design dummies can EVER remind you of "Those who CAN'T teach"... is English your 1st, 2nd, 3rd of 4th language... ? Just asking because if you read that post with an OBJECTIVE pair of spectacles on you would never make such an unfounded judgment in a million and one centuries.

        As for what you THINK is the norm. Let me ask you this....

        Do you really think if EVERYONE was like you and followed THE NORM you would even have a job designing graphics for anyone? Believe me, the guys who INVENTED the software you use and all the tools your counterparts need to make money as designers DECIDED to THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX... cliche as that is, it is still a clearly obvious fact. Maybe not for someone who doesn't read thoroughly before they make a response.

        While what you say is true about some or even many offline companies, it DOES NOT have to always be the accepted norm and there ARE offline companies who would jump at this if you were smart enough to sniff them out.

        And oh, I wasn't talking about companies like wal mart hiring someone to teach law to their employees that example is so far off the mark it's irritating to read it.

        I was talking about a skill set that can be learned by possibly the dumbest of employees as long as they have good teaching material and a good teacher, while not all will ace at it, some will do pretty well, much like many IMers are doing today who make their own graphics. They create graphics that can pass muster and they are happy with it and make money. There are offline companies who would pay to have someone do that for them in-house. I know, I've met a few CEO's eager for such opportunities because outsourcing costs them a lot each time they need new stuff done with regard to graphics and web design.

        Also, since you so conveniently left out the fact that IMers (like the guys who visit this forum) are possible prospects for my idea and NOT just offline companies, I feel I should point it out again... read between the lines when in doubt?

        You can take a simple idea and make a success of it or you can bash it with silly comments till the second coming. Do with my advice what you will.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
        Graphic designers will always be in demand, especially for online work.

        Graphic designers need to take a page from the marketing playbook of higher-priced copywriters and other freelancers.

        They need to stop competing on price and start competing on quality of work and results delivered.

        The key is being able to *prove* that your design improved conversion rates.

        The problem is, 99% of the designers I've ever talked to don't test their marketing or design.

        If you have testing proof or client testimonials that your design layout increased conversion rates by 25-30%, then it's a lot easier to command your desired fees.

        My 3 cents,

        Mike
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        Kick-A$$ Eight-Figure Producing Copywriting Gun For Hire | Marketing & Copywriting Blog
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        • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
          You'd be surprised how hard it is to get the info from clients.

          Because in reality, most clients don't test! lol...

          Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

          If you have testing proof or client testimonials that your design layout increased conversion rates by 25-30%, then it's a lot easier to command your desired fees.

          My 3 cents,

          Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Gatica
            Originally Posted by BlueSquares View Post

            You'd be surprised how hard it is to get the info from clients.

            Because in reality, most clients don't test! lol...
            true statement right there, no matter how much info you try to get out of some clients, there is still the" just give me something that looks good" statement.

            often times you still end up tweaking the design til it no longer looks like the original draft. So by that point you have done 2 designs.

            As far as split testing for different designs, how many people would take the time to not only test one, and then test the other, along with the copy? I agree that you could command more prices, but could one actually get their clients to split test the graphics and get reliable results? I'd have to be on my clients to do this and quite simply is that a workload I want to take on? I would be happy to do two designs for a client for the same site, but be prepared to pay a price for that.

            As far as teaching someone how to graphically design sites, sure I could show someone how to USE photoshop, but you can't teach someone how to balance colors, shapes, etc.. or to put it bluntly: you can't teach creativity.

            Jeremy
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            • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Gatica View Post

              true statement right there, no matter how much info you try to get out of some clients, there is still the" just give me something that looks good" statement.

              often times you still end up tweaking the design til it no longer looks like the original draft. So by that point you have done 2 designs.

              As far as split testing for different designs, how many people would take the time to not only test one, and then test the other, along with the copy? I agree that you could command more prices, but could one actually get their clients to split test the graphics and get reliable results? I'd have to be on my clients to do this and quite simply is that a workload I want to take on? I would be happy to do two designs for a client for the same site, but be prepared to pay a price for that.

              As far as teaching someone how to graphically design sites, sure I could show someone how to USE photoshop, but you can't teach someone how to balance colors, shapes, etc.. or to put it bluntly: you can't teach creativity.

              Jeremy

              An interesting FACT about the serious direct mail industry is mailers are
              often revived simply by changing the graphics. Here's why:

              People remember what they've SEEN, not what they've read. Thus
              you change the graphics and your mailer is seen with fresh eyes.

              Online marketers are pretty much oblivious to this, but you can
              add juice to old products simply by rotating in new graphics -
              not even better graphics, just different ones. I'm not talking about
              a major makeover - just a different header for example, or box shot -
              the graphical elements that stick in your prospects' mind.

              Graphic designers could use the information I just shared (which
              I got from "Million Dollar Mailings by Dennison Hatch) to sell bigger
              graphics packages to clients by showing how rotating graphics
              boosts salesletter longevity.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
            Originally Posted by BlueSquares View Post

            You'd be surprised how hard it is to get the info from clients.

            Because in reality, most clients don't test! lol...
            I sure do. By my estimate, 90% of marketers don't test and it's a huge mistake.

            As a professional copywriter, I also get clients who tell me they're thrilled with the salesletter's performance but can't/won't tell me the conversion rate. Or they tell me but I can't share the results because of signing a non-disclosure agreement.

            Just keep asking them. If 5% of your clients test and share their results with you, then you can build one hell of a testimonial file within a year's time.

            You can have them test something as simple as header vs. no header on the salesletter. The results will vary based on the niche & target market and the effectiveness of your header layout/design.

            If it's your own info-product site, you can do your own testing and track your results.

            Take care,

            Mike
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            • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
              Don't worry...I am testing...and I'm using your EMT script. It rocks.

              Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

              If it's your own info-product site, you can do your own testing and track your results.

              Take care,

              Mike
              Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
    I just paid $127 for a header and thought that was a pretty good deal. So, I think you are not marketing to the right clientele. However, If I am not getting the result I want from a graphic artist I am not affraid to move to another designer either.

    Shannon
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  • Profile picture of the author jjoshua
    I kinda believe in a "Threshold" degree of design, which means that, design can only contribute just one small part of the sales conversion. No matter how great it is, its just one part.

    But for the most part, its the copy, the offer, the quality of the product that makes sales and lower refunds.

    What do you think?
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  • Profile picture of the author iamchrisgreen
    I didn't realise this would be such a good debate. Thanks guys for chipping in.
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  • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
    I use graphic designers and for me the most important thing is high quality work.
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    'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Graphic design will always be needed.

    However, the field has such a low barrier to entry, that it's crowded with inexperienced people. All they need is a cheap (or free) paint program and they're in business.

    Add in the fact that a lot of customers can't tell high-quality graphics from two-dollar clip-art, and the business of graphic design on the web becomes a tough nut to crack.

    The amount of competition out there is staggering. Just look at the swarm of designers competing at 99designs.com.

    Regards,

    Johnny
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  • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
    This is pretty much the same reason I got out of photography as a business. It seems like anyone that just bought their entry level DSLR posts on CL and is willing to shoot your wedding for $10 and a bag of peanuts. And i just refuse to compete with that...
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    • Profile picture of the author cscarpero
      The local company here wants $600 for logos, so yes someone is paying it. Offline local businesses aren't nearly as cheap as us onliners that know how to get things overseas for dirt cheap.
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      I'm an online marketer and mortgage loan officer.

      Connect with me at www.Scarpero.com

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  • Profile picture of the author addykho
    Originally Posted by freelance4money View Post

    Is design a big factor in marketing?

    Can designers make a decent living still?

    Is the copy more important and any old graphics will do?

    Thanks in advance...
    Is design a big factor in marketing?
    yes, definitely.... we all see pictures first before we read

    Can designers make a decent living still?
    Yes, I have seen many designer still making a good living online and offline. Best if you can have the design fee included in the design of teh whole website etc.

    Is the copy more important and any old graphics will do?
    They carry same weight for me. Pic catches the attention and copy tells you the details
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    Addy Kho- Online Marketer in the Middle of Borneo Jungle
    Make Money Online | Make Money Online Malaysia & Singapore | Internet Marketing Malaysia & Singapore | $300 Per Day Online
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      I'd be much more interested in this thread if there were some quality graphics to go along with it.
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      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
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  • Profile picture of the author eQuus
    "The medium is the massage" as the good man said.
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  • Profile picture of the author Christian York
    It depends on how you position yourself in the industry.

    You are not going to make money designing salespages and headers etc for $10 because someone is always going to come in and offer a cheaper price.

    The only way you could make this work was if you did a ton of work for very little money...

    Instead if you do absolutely fantastic work, an industry leader, then you can charge way more money and have people begging to have their graphics done by you - simply because of your name and your perceived value.

    In other words, if you are great at what you do, stick with that and charge high prices. Don't try and fight it out with every other amateur charging 10 bucks.
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