Has there been a change in WSO Rules lately??

15 years ago

Paul is a moderator and has been here since the beginning, pretty much. You definitely want to pay attention to what he says.

Tina

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Can't tell you its legit (only Paul can confirm that ) but believe it may be. EDIT: IF it contains his name as the sender - it is legit. It is consistent with what Paul has been saying in multiple threads. Its not a change in the rules as I understand it but a "change" in enforcement.

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Martin Avis

15 years ago

His name is Paul Myers (not Meyers) and he is somewhat more than a moderator.

Don't mess with him because if he messes back you won't enjoy the experience.

As to his message to you, it seems pretty clear: your service may have been accepted in the past, but it no longer complies with the WSO rules.

Martin

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Kevin Riley

15 years ago

Paul who? Be careful of pranksters. This guy sounds like one of our loonier whackos. I believe he has gone off his medication again, and will soon be back in the rubber room.

Oh, wait! Paul Myers? Yes, he might just pull some might around here. I believe he now wears the Sheriff star in the WSO forum. He may be about 100 years old, nearly blind, and a toothless old dog, but he does carry the star.

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yousefgreat

15 years ago

Oh, I feel like a wank now for trying to acknowledge Paul's PM.

Thanks for informing me about that change in rules.. You're the man!!

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by yousefgreat

Oh, I feel like a wank now for trying to acknowledge Paul's PM.

Thanks for informing me about that change in rules.. You're the man!!

As others have said -- yep, that's legit.

And it isn't a change in rules, as #7 has been sitting in the WSO rules for a while now. It's just that now it's more likely that those who break the rule will get called on it.

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

As others have said -- yep, that's legit.

And it isn't a change in rules, as #7 has been sitting in the WSO rules for a while now. It's just that now it's more likely that those who break the rule will get called on it.

Perhaps...

but the wording of the same type of PM that I saw from Paul, makes it seem like WF is creating bright-line rules, which they plan to implement whether or not a particular WSO violates Rule #7. That is, if they deem a genre of backlinking as general violative of other sites TOS, then you can't post any WSOs in that area, even if your particular WSO is clean as a whistle.

For instance, I wonder how this impacts people who offer backlinks to sites they own (since clearly they aren't violating their own TOS).

Lets say I bought 1000 domains, and installed SMF forums on all of them. Based upon what I have seen today, you couldn't have a WSO whereby I provided forum links on my own sites, even if I'm clearly not violating my own TOS's.

Also, a restriction on proxies just seems crazy to me. Am I the only one who doesn't like *anyone* spying on me or my IP address? Privacy matters.

Tom

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theimdude

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

For instance, I wonder how this impacts people who offer backlinks to sites they own (since clearly they aren't violating their own TOS).

Lets say I bought 1000 domains, and installed SMF forums on all of them. Based upon what I have seen today, you couldn't have a WSO whereby I provided forum links on my own sites, even if I'm clearly not violating my own TOS's.

The probability of somebody buying a 1000 domains, setting up a 1000 forums for the purpose of selling backlinks is very dim............. but if that is the case then it won't fall in the same criteria

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Clyde

15 years ago

Originally Posted by theimdude

The probability of somebody buying a 1000 domains, setting up a 1000 forums for the purpose of selling backlinks is very dim............. but if that is the case then it won't fall in the same criteria

Very dim?

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any linking scheme by Jon Leger.

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4morereferrals

15 years ago

Originally Posted by theimdude

The probability of somebody buying a 1000 domains, setting up a 1000 forums for the purpose of selling backlinks is very dim............. but if that is the case then it won't fall in the same criteria

Lets not discuss whats dim ... because thats happened a ton already. Maybe not 1000's but certainly 500+

Also - last I looked screen name wasnt Paul Myers - I think I ll wait for his take on it.

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Igirl 15 years ago

This is only for WSO right, we can post in the Warrior for Hire section?
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- Andy Fletcher 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ZMan73
  
  This is only for WSO right, we can post in the Warrior for Hire section?
  
  This has been covered before in the thread. The WFH section isn't currently being looked at but will be once the WSO stuff dies down.
  
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- PhilJL 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ZMan73
  
  This is only for WSO right, we can post in the Warrior for Hire section?
  
  Paul said: "First the WSOs, then the Classifieds, the link section and Warriors For Hire. Sig files will be on a "See them and fix them" basis. Lowest current priority."
  
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samd123

15 years ago

this sounds like a nightmare to manage accurately - proably will reveal more innovative groundbreaking offers which hopefully should move things forward developmentally for everyone involved in IM - change causes upset, but life is all about change - when you align yourself to change then you see that it is to be welcomed

All the best

Sam

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Sam,

this sounds like a nightmare to manage accurately

It would be, if we expected to get it perfect. Fortunately, we all know that won't happen. That's one of the reasons for the "don't bump" note, rather than just closing and deleting things. Leaves room to correct the mistakes that will inevitably be made.

I went through 12 pages of the links section and got rid of a bunch of stuff there. It's amazing how many people think that's a free version of the WSO forum.

Paul

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seo_genius

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Sam,It would be, if we expected to get it perfect. Fortunately, we all know that won't happen. That's one of the reasons for the "don't bump" note, rather than just closing and deleting things. Leaves room to correct the mistakes that will inevitably be made.

I went through 12 pages of the links section and got rid of a bunch of stuff there. It's amazing how many people think that's a free version of the WSO forum.

Paul

Paul, I sent you some queries regarding the updated WSO rule..
Did you receive?

Kindly confirm.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by seo_genius

Paul, I sent you some queries regarding the updated WSO rule.. Did you receive?

Yes, I did. And no, you may not.

Your copy says the links will be content-based, and the type that webmasters appreciate. I've heard that hundreds of times. Sometimes it's even true, but not usually. It's not a matter of anyone necessarily lying, mind you. Just that an SEO guy's idea of "welcome" content isn't always in line with a site owner's idea of the same thing.

For example, the link spammer I just nuked. His one-liners were obviously hand-typed and marginally related to the threads in which he posted, but they were nonsense, and contributed nothing. He very likely told his prospects that the posts he'd make would be relevant and useful, and he may have even believed it. Doesn't change the fact that they were nothing but pointless spam.

Maybe your content would be useful and welcome. I don't know. We have no way to verify that, and that leaves it as just another link building offer. With a bunch of other very useful sounding bits attached, certainly, but it's still link building. Even the stuff that sounds legit in that field is out for now.

One thing that makes me wonder about all of these offers... You're guaranteeing contextually appropriate links for customers, regardless of the niche. It seems to me it would require an astonishing level of general knowledge to fulfill that promise. Anything less and you would necessarily be adding meaningless or irrelevant content.

Paul

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Andy Fletcher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

One thing that makes me wonder about all of these offers... You're guaranteeing contextually appropriate links for customers, regardless of the niche. It seems to me it would require an astonishing level of general knowledge to fulfill that promise. Anything less and you would necessarily be adding meaningless or irrelevant content.

By that logic shouldn't we question all of the article writers on this forum as well?

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Andy,

By that logic shouldn't we question all of the article writers on this forum as well?

That's a fair question. I'm not sure I have seen any article writer guaranteeing accurate info on any and all subjects, but maybe some have.

The associated question is: Do we believe that an SEO service is going to do the research and writing necessary to meet the stated standard. I find that sufficiently unlikely that it makes me wonder about the resulting context.

That part of the post is just musing, though. The basic premise is: It includes a link building service, and we're not allowing any of those at the moment.

Paul
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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

By that logic shouldn't we question all of the article writers on this forum as well?

Yes, you should. And here's how this article writer, at least, handles it.

If I can't do the job, I tell you I can't do it. I tell you why I can't do it. And I try to point you at someone who can.

If I were to tell someone I could write on any niche, and they said "Oh yeah? What about left-handed veterinarian skydivers?" - I'd give it a shot. And if I succeeded, I would blow a fanfare and light up a big sign that said "YES I FREAKIN' DID IT" so everyone would know.

But if I failed... or saw every indication that I was going to fail... I would neither take the client's money, nor deliver something that wasn't good enough.

Most decent writers do the same. Most backlink providers, on the other hand, do not.

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grayambition

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

If I can't do the job, I tell you I can't do it. I tell you why I can't do it. And I try to point you at someone who can.

But if I failed... or saw every indication that I was going to fail... I would neither take the client's money, nor deliver something that wasn't good enough.

Most decent writers do the same. Most backlink providers, on the other hand, do not.

Like he said.

Here's the thing. For $3-5, you won't find many writers willing to do any amount of serious research. If I'm being adequately compensated, however, I can and will research virtually any topic to the point that I can sound like an expert. Given enough time and money (and possibly a Lexis/Nexis account), a good writer can write about almost anything.

Heck, that's what I did when I wrote computer books. My agent told me what program I'd be writing about. I learned it well enough to write about it. No problem.

Problem is, for what most blog spammers (er, commenters) charge and what most people are willing to pay for this service, there's no margin for research, so you will almost invariably end up with the kind of blog spam Paul is trying to clean up.

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4morereferrals 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

By that logic shouldn't we question all of the article writers on this forum as well?

Question or outright ban for directory spamming? Im sure all the article directories crave your 116th iteration of Puppy Potty Training drivel.

3 cheers for PLR! ..... errrr ... I mean, high quality unique content.

I read Andy's query to mean the fact that a great many of the great white hat washed - or those professing to be are likely [daily] violating TOS by blasting their "quality content" all over the buhhhjeeezus and back ... all the while turning their collective noses up at people backlink spamming.

I could be wrong ...

I know there's no concern of violating googles notion of trying to game the algo with spun content, but - the irony just doesnt escape me. For all those atop the white hat mountain staring down upon the lowly automated backlink peasants ... Id hope you're cleaning up your acts as well ... Ive seen your articles on EZA and in the index. Your white hats need a trip to the dry cleaners.
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seo_genius

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Yes, I did. And no, you may not.

Your copy says the links will be content-based, and the type that webmasters appreciate. I've heard that hundreds of times. Sometimes it's even true, but not usually. It's not a matter of anyone necessarily lying, mind you. Just that an SEO guy's idea of "welcome" content isn't always in line with a site owner's idea of the same thing.

For example, the link spammer I just nuked. His one-liners were obviously hand-typed and marginally related to the threads in which he posted, but they were nonsense, and contributed nothing. He very likely told his prospects that the posts he'd make would be relevant and useful, and he may have even believed it. Doesn't change the fact that they were nothing but pointless spam.

Maybe your content would be useful and welcome. I don't know. We have no way to verify that, and that leaves it as just another link building offer. With a bunch of other very useful sounding bits attached, certainly, but it's still link building. Even the stuff that sounds legit in that field is out for now.

One thing that makes me wonder about all of these offers... You're guaranteeing contextually appropriate links for customers, regardless of the niche. It seems to me it would require an astonishing level of general knowledge to fulfill that promise. Anything less and you would necessarily be adding meaningless or irrelevant content.

Paul

I have replied your post in the PM.

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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

Also, a restriction on proxies just seems crazy to me. Am I the only one who doesn't like *anyone* spying on me or my IP address? Privacy matters.

Tom

I stand to be impacted too if all backlink lists are ultimately ruled out but I think we all know that Proxies on these tools are not for normal privacy concerns. They're used to circumvent being blocked by the web services in question.
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Tom,

but the wording of the same type of PM that I saw from Paul, makes it seem like WF is creating bright-line rules, which they plan to implement whether or not a particular WSO violates Rule #7. That is, if they deem a genre of backlinking as general violative of other sites TOS, then you can't post any WSOs in that area, even if your particular WSO is clean as a whistle.

Problem: Proof. When it comes to WSOs, too many people tell too many lies. Just like most other kinds of online advertising. We'll never get it perfect, but this gets the job done in a way that doesn't discriminate and doesn't create hard feelings and hostility.

Also, a restriction on proxies just seems crazy to me. Am I the only one who doesn't like *anyone* spying on me or my IP address? Privacy matters.

I've said before that proxies have legitimate uses. I've also said that they are rarely used for anything but abuse when you're talking about marketing automation.

I'm also on the record as believing that hiding your identity when you're selling something is... less than acceptable.

Paul

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Tom,Problem: Proof. When it comes to WSOs, too many people tell too many lies. Just like most other kinds of online advertising. We'll never get it perfect, but this gets the job done in a way that doesn't discriminate and doesn't create hard feelings and hostility

Hi Paul,

I guess I'm confused by your comment. I believe you are saying that we can't have an WSO where we place links on sites we own (because that would constitute a backlinks WSO), but I am not 100% sure. For instance, I guess if I set up a 100 site mini-network of WP blogs I personally bought and run, I couldn't have an WSO where people got posting rights there? Can't I just email someone a screencap showing my hosting for all the sites, lol. Not all backlinks are evil.

Tom

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Tom,

I guess I'm confused by your comment. I believe you are saying that we can't have an WSO where we place links on sites we own (because that would constitute a backlinks WSO), but I am not 100% sure.

No offers for backlinking services.

There. That should not be confusing. I'm not going to get into exceptions. There's no way to deal with that without fighting with every person who runs one, because they can all figure out ways to claim theirs is different. Might be, but I have limited time and my own business to run.

Paul

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J Bold

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Tom,No offers for backlinking services.

There. That should not be confusing. I'm not going to get into exceptions. There's no way to deal with that without fighting with every person who runs one, because they can all figure out ways to claim theirs is different. Might be, but I have limited time and my own business to run.

Paul

Except for those that offer posting to article directories and press release directories in order to get backlinks, right?

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DogScout

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

For instance, I wonder how this impacts people who offer backlinks to sites they own (since clearly they aren't violating their own TOS).

Lets say I bought 1000 domains, and installed SMF forums on all of them. Based upon what I have seen today, you couldn't have a WSO whereby I provided forum links on my own sites, even if I'm clearly not violating my own TOS's.

Tom

Artificial back-links does violate the TOS of any site that wishes to remain indexed by Google? The promulgation of any back-links puts the site offering them (whether or not they are in violation of the sites the links are on) become in in jeopardy of violating Goggles TOS?

From Google Webmaster Tools: Here

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by DogScout

Artificial back-links does violate the TOS of any site that wishes to remain indexed by Google? The promulgation of any back-links puts the site offering them (whether or not they are in violation of the sites the links are on) become in in jeopardy of violating Goggles TOS?

From Google Webmaster Tools: Here

You sir, are 100% incorrect and that is not even up for debate.

In order to violate a site's TOS, you must agree to a site's TOS. This can be in the form of a signature (real or electronic) or clicking a "submit" button. From wikipedia, "Terms of service (abbreviated as "ToS" or "TOS") are rules by which one must agree to abide by in order to use a service. Usually, such terms are legally binding."

If I have a site on dog training, and I buy (paid) links to my site, am I violating the TOS of Google (with respect to its search engine)? Of course you aren't because you never agreed to the terms of service. Now, can google decide to alter the "value" of your website in Google's eyes (either in terms of PR or SERP ranking) based upon the paid links? Sure.

But that only has to do with Google's voluntary index, and has NOTHING to do with violating Google's TOS.

Where do people come up with this stuff.

Tom

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DogScout

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

You sir, are 100% incorrect and that is not even up for debate.

In order to violate a site's TOS, you must agree to a site's TOS. This can be in the form of a signature (real or electronic) or clicking a "submit" button. From wikipedia, "Terms of service (abbreviated as "ToS" or "TOS") are rules by which one must agree to abide by in order to use a service. Usually, such terms are legally binding."

If I have a site on dog training, and I buy (paid) links to my site, am I violating the TOS of Google (with respect to its search engine)? Of course you aren't because you never agreed to the terms of service. Now, can google decide to alter the "value" of your website in Google's eyes (either in terms of PR or SERP ranking) based upon the paid links? Sure.

But that only has to do with Google's voluntary index, and has NOTHING to do with violating Google's TOS.

Where do people come up with this stuff.

Tom

Thanks, Hence the '?'s

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Google's decisions about what to index are not a function of a TOS, unless you're using one of their other services. They're a choice made by an outside third party. Not our business to tell them what to do, or to get into the decisions people can make that will harm them, rank-wise.

If someone gets de-indexed for screwing around, that's between them and G.

It is entirely possible to do all sorts of things that do not break the TOS of any of the sites involved and still get slapped by Google. That's the risk you take when you play that game. But it is not a function of breaking the rules of any of the directly affected sites, so it's not something we will get involved with.

There is a difference between being a good neighbor and telling people what to do in their own house.

Paul
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Andy Fletcher

15 years ago

See this thread for more discussion on the same topic -

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...mpetition.html

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milan

15 years ago

Yes, this change has been announced.
Your WSO clearly doesn't comply with the rule #7, so, I'm afraid you can't bump it anymore.

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entry 15 years ago

Originally Posted by milan

Yes, this change has been announced.
Your WSO clearly doesn't comply with the rule #7, so, I'm afraid you can't bump it anymore.

What is this rule 7 ?
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- Mike Anthony 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by entry
  
  What is this rule 7 ?
  
  http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...12-3-09-a.html
  
  First post #7
  
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- Clyde 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by entry
  
  What is this rule 7 ?
  
  Rule #7 is you never talk about Rule #7. :p
  
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- CDarklock 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by entry
  
  What is this rule 7 ?
  
  "No poofters."
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  "No poofters."
  
  And rules numbered 1, 3 and 5.
  
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  Sandy Cormack 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  "No poofters."
  
  Speaking of Monty Python...not too long ago I bought a WSO that reminded me of the MP sketch called 'How To Do It Lessons,' the one that taught you to play the flute by saying: 'Blow in this end and move your fingers up and down the other.'
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 15 years ago

It's pretty self-explanatory, isn't it? No WSOs that violate the TOS of other sites, so that's going to include automated backlinking, spam linking, auto blog spamming, auto Social bookmarking, auto submissions of most kinds.

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badboy_Nick

15 years ago

Kinda does say what it says ... pretty clear to me

Nick

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin Riley

Paul who? Be careful of pranksters. This guy sounds like one of our loonier whackos. I believe he has gone off his medication again, and will soon be back in the rubber room.

Somebody done took me thanks button away.

lol

Wow! Thank you to the OP for showing what you got. I think that generic response is quite detailed and very well done (Paul

).

I'm not used to getting PM's from Paul, so no offense - please don't start sending me any now.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Yes, that's me. And yes, that exact text was approved by Allen.

This seemed the fairest way to deal with a situation that got completely out of hand. The place was starting to look blacker than my favorite Stetson, and we needed something that could clean it up without slamming people for a problem we allowed to develop.

This does not forbid software that you use on your own system(s) which submits to accounts you own and created. Examples would be things that submit Tweets on a schedule, link your blog to Facebook, submit articles to directories, etc.

I also just had my first "false positive." [Read: screw-up in the process.] The description said automatic linking, but it referred to legit posting of appropriate content that would then be picked up from the site to which it was submitted by people who wanted it.

Paul

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debra

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Yes, that's me. And yes, that exact text was approved by Allen.

This seemed the fairest way to deal with a situation that got completely out of hand. The place was starting to look blacker than my favorite Stetson, and we needed something that could clean it up without slamming people for a problem we allowed to develop.

Paul

Stetson? I'm so sorry...I had you peg'd as the Ole Spice kinda guy.

Correction made.:rolleyes:

Although I'm quilty for purchasing some of those questionable products and love most of them, I'm also, glad to see it toned down.

Ohhhhh....the temptations! Time to get back on the right track before I burn myself.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Debra,

Stetson? I'm so sorry...I had you peg'd as the Ole Spice kinda guy.

Yeah. Right. I refuse to wear any cologne you can buy at Walmart.

Paul
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- CDarklock 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  I refuse to wear any cologne you can buy at Walmart.
  
  I could never do that. I'm way too fond of college sophomores with daddy issues, and it goes a long way to smell like daddy used to before he left...
  
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  Tsnyder 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  I could never do that. I'm way too fond of college sophomores with daddy issues, and it goes a long way to smell like daddy used to before he left...
  
  See... this is why I read threads like this. Mundane as they
  are there's always a nugget in there somewhere... lol
  
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  bethrobinson 15 years ago
  
  I obviously haven't been reading TOS on some sites well enough and you've done some careful research into it.
  
  For my own education, could you clarify if these things are likely to violate the TOS of the relevant sites...
  
  Building linkwheels or pyramids using web 2.0 properties
  If no - then is paying someone else to do it a different case?
  Paying someone or using software to bookmark sites
  
  Thanks. Sorry if I'm being dense, because I know these probably fall under "no backlinking", but they hadn't been brought up specifically so I thought I'd ask.
  
  Beth
  
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yousefgreat

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I also just had my first "false positive." [Read: screw-up in the process.] The description said automatic linking, but it referred to legit posting of appropriate content that would then be picked up from the site to which it was submitted by people who wanted it.

Paul

Paul, I truly appreciate your time for reading and replying back.

I am glad that my thread has been a "false positive".

Let me know if there is any edits to be made to my thread to prevent any false positive flags to be raised again.

PS: Only appropriate content is posted per client request. Refunds get processed immediately as soon as client requests that anytime. This service helps all my clients to rank well and there is 100's of positive reviews so far, no Negatives whatsoever.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Yousef,

You were NOT the false positive. Do not bump or re-post that thread. The false positive was related to press releases.

Paul

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theimdude

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Yousef,

You were NOT the false positive. Do not bump or re-post that thread. The false positive was related to press releases.

Paul

Hi Paul,

When are all these false positives that is claimed by WSO owner that this will do this or that. Buy this script and in 2 weeks you you will have 100k visitors doing nothing and the list goes on and on.

I have never setup a WSO but is mainly a WSO buyer but of late not interested any in buying WSO's as the claims are over inflated.

When you buy the WSO and complain about the WSO the WSO owner PM you and ask you to remove you complaints in the thread as it is affecting his sales. You ask for a refund as there claims are over inflated and then they get nasty with you and refuse a refund

I use to buy a lot of WSO's but have lost interest in WSO's as the value of WSO's have declined.

How can we address these problems as if I remember correctly if you buy a WSO the problems is between you and the WSO owner

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

When are all these false positives that is claimed by WSO owner that this will do this or that. Buy this script and in 2 weeks you you will have 100k visitors doing nothing and the list goes on and on.

See: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post2041917

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Clyde

15 years ago

Does this mean that any KW research software, be it Market Samurai, Micro Niche Finder, Keyword Elite, etc are prohibited from being sold on WarriorForum?

I guess that leaves us with the $3000/day e-book. Such a sad day.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Does this mean that any KW research software, be it Market Samurai, Micro Niche Finder, Keyword Elite, etc are prohibited from being sold on WarriorForum?

If it uses proxies, yes. That is exactly what it means. If you make a single exception, the rule is nearly impossible to enforce at all.

Paul
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- Clyde 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  If it uses proxies, yes. That is exactly what it means. If you make a single exception, the rule is nearly impossible to enforce at all.
  
  Paul
  
  I see but what if it's optional. (you don't have to use proxies for it to work 100%)
  
  Market Samurai for example doesn't use proxies but you can use one if you're paranoid about your privacy.
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  I see but what if it's optional. (you don't have to use proxies for it to work 100%)
  
  Does not matter. Proxy support = forbidden here. Note: Here. If this is the only place you're selling something, it doesn't qualify as a WSO anyway.
  
  What you offer your existing customers or sell somewhere else is not my concern.
  
  Paul
  
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  R Hagel 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  What you offer your existing customers or sell somewhere else is not my concern.
  
  So far you're focusing on WSOs. I know, one step at a time. However, once you clean that up, will you be looking at things like sig files? I know there are folks who're currently advertising BH stuff in their sig files.
  
  Just curious about how far the broom will reach as you start cleaning up the forum. (And what types of things members should keep an eye out for to help out the mods.)
  
  Cheers,
  Becky
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Becky,
  
  So far you're focusing on WSOs. I know, one step at a time. However, once you clean that up, will you be looking at things like sig files?
  
  First the WSOs, then the Classifieds, the link section and Warriors For Hire. Sig files will be on a "See them and fix them" basis. Lowest current priority.
  
  Paul
  
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  Principal 15 years ago
  
  Thanks Paul. This was well overdue. I am very pleased to see the forum addressing these issues.
  
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Paul Myers 15 years ago

I guess that leaves us with the $3000/day e-book. Such a sad day.

One thing at a time. We'll deal with that stuff after we handle the TOS issue. There's a lot more in that section than just those BS "courses" and TOS-busters.

Paul
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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Paul does that now officially relate to Backlink packets and any kind of submissions using them even if its users themselves submitting the links? Does this put to an end to angela style backlink packets (for lack of a better description not referring to her specifically) and or any system that helps users submit them?

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Mike,

Paul does that now officially relate to Backlink packets and any kind of submissions using them even if its users themselves submitting the links?

Automated backlink software is out. Software that does legit submissions, like article directories and press releases to appropriate sites, is not, at least not based on just those things.

I'm not sure on the packets (lists) themselves, but if I'm informed they recommend or require automated submissions to work, they'll go away.

It's a process. The obvious stuff first, then we'll end up depending more and more on member reporting for the ones that don't show the violations in the sales copy. That will end up with pretty much every CPA-related offer and most of the Facebook things going, too.

Paul

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Thaks Paul. One last question on that then. Just to clarify what you are referring to by automation.

If you are aware of Roboform. Do you considered that automation software? It helps fill out forms does not break captcha and the person must manually use it (its not set and walk away).

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Mike,

If you are aware of Roboform. Do you considered that automation software? It helps fill out forms does not break captcha and the person must manually use it (its not set and walk away).

I don't see that as a problem. Software to help speed things up is good. Roboform is not intended to be used in the same way as the stuff I'm talking about. It's not even easy to use that way.

If it's designed to make it easy to do the kind of submissions that are likely to be abused, it will probably still get the boot. "Grey is the new black."

Paul

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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If it's designed to make it easy to do the kind of submissions that are likely to be abused, it will probably still get the boot. "Grey is the new black."

Okay.. I guess that goes back to whether the packets themselves are likely to be abused. So since you stated you are not sure yet about the packets themselves I guess I will have to wait to find out how you rule on those. Thanks for the clarifications.
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Zach Booker 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That will end up with pretty much every CPA-related offer and most of the Facebook things going, too.

I'm a little confused at this.

Are you saying CPA products aren't going to be allowed?
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Zach,
  
  Are you saying CPA products aren't going to be allowed?
  
  No. I'm saying that most of the offers I've seen in that field involve abuse of other sites' TOS. So, most of them will eventually come down.
  
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4morereferrals

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Mike,Automated backlink software is out. Software that does legit submissions, like article directories and press releases to appropriate sites, is not, at least not based on just those things.

I'm not sure on the packets (lists) themselves, but if I'm informed they recommend or require automated submissions to work, they'll go away.

It's a process. The obvious stuff first, then we'll end up depending more and more on member reporting for the ones that don't show the violations in the sales copy. That will end up with pretty much every CPA-related offer and most of the Facebook things going, too.

Paul

Not to be an ass - but ... if you kill backlinking systems that violate a sites or many sites TOS - then you kill them all. If you use a computer to place a backlink [manually ] - that s still an automated process. If you take that to ... writing a piece of code that furthers the process of violating another sites TOS faster - thats clearly in rule #7.

Much of my stuff is clearly in the mods sites. I accept that. But I could just as easy change it to link packets and say here ya go - go sign up here x 1000 {manually by typing on your keyboard ]....and after they do that for 48 hrs - send an email to upsell the automation.

What would have been accomplished?

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

What would have been accomplished?

Fewer crappy links getting posted on sites where they don't belong and aren't wanted.

That's the idea.

Paul
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  What would have been accomplished?
  
  By the way... You're making an excellent argument for disallowing backlink packages, too. A really excellent argument...
  
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  4morereferrals 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  By the way... You're making an excellent argument for disallowing backlink packages, too. A really excellent argument...
  
  Paul
  
  Ohhh well, the way I read - and I took it literally ... if they violate a sites TOS - they were dead. Its pretty clear to me that a list of sites that cause or aid a bunch of users to go and signup for a spam link - thats a violation of 90% of the TOS's Angela, Paul, Me, 35,000 others ... cant sell that stuff. Whether a macro - roboform or full on desktop application is doing it - or your painstakingly typing in your spam manually on your keyboard - its a TOS violation 95% of the time. Its no different - its just slower.
  
  There's many examples in this forum of webmasters coming here and threatening to get the AG or Sheriff or Bobby the Bone Breaker after users of Angelas Pauls, and others who register a profile and leave links - and no contributions - and they most always cite - violation of Terms of Service.
  
  Im not making the case. It was already made - with a broad stroke of the brush. Im not complaining. But selling backlinking products like sites lists would piss off 99% of the owners of those sites if they knew their site was on it. Lets call a spade a spade - shall we?
  
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R Hagel

15 years ago

There goes my "Make $1 Million Dollars in the Next 36 Hours by Scraping Email Addresses" WSO.

***

On the plus side, I'm glad to see this clean up. When the dust settles, browsing the WSO forum should be a much more pleasant experience. Folks should be able to find the treasures a lot more easily (and sellers naturally will get more visibility for their solid offers once the weakest links are gone).

I like it.

Cheers,
Becky

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

On the plus side, I'm glad to see this clean up. When the dust settles, browsing the WSO forum should be a much more pleasant experience.

Yes Should help posts to stay on the front page longer as well.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Mike,

Yes Should help posts to stay on the front page longer as well.

That remains to be seen. There have been some folks who refused to post WSOs because they didn't want to be seen around those kinds of offers. Some of the better graphics deals, for example.

There's dust, and there's a new vista. No clue what this one will look like.

I can tell you that the response from people who've gotten the warnings so far has been much more professional and civil than I would have expected. A few issues due to misunderstandings, but all sorted pleasantly.

I am suitably impressed.

Paul

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Robert Puddy

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Mike,That remains to be seen. There have been some folks who refused to post WSOs because they didn't want to be seen around those kinds of offers. Some of the better graphics deals, for example.

There's dust, and there's a new vista. No clue what this one will look like.

I can tell you that the response from people who've gotten the warnings so far has been much more professional and civil than I would have expected. A few issues due to misunderstandings, but all sorted pleasantly.

I am suitably impressed.

Paul

Yep someone like me might just start a couple of WSO for decent products if I dont have to mix them in with some of the crap thats in there now.

Robert

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Paul Barrs

15 years ago

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LB

15 years ago

I'll just float this out there...are there any plans to stop nearly half the WSOs from making income claims like "Make $5000 per month"? (and then of course when you read the product the guy made $165 once on one day so by extrapolation...$5k in one month!) -_-

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

I'll just float this out there...are there any plans to stop nearly half the WSOs from making income claims like "Make $5000 per month"? (and then of course when you read the product the guy made $165 once on one day so by extrapolation...$5k in one month!) -_-

That hasn't yet been decided. One thing at a time.

Paul

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Clyde 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That hasn't yet been decided. One thing at a time.

Paul

Paul, would it be OK if you don't delete the un-bump'ed WSO just so that people can use it as reference.
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MJ Sterling

15 years ago

A lot of the big names in marketing have offered products showing how they made $20+ million in 24+ hours, which many customers rave about and helped the big names to build solid repuations in the marketing community.

It makes sense that the smaller guys will also put their best foot forward and provide products that show others the same blueprint or business model they use.

The majority of these products do not promise or make guarantees that they buyer will receive the same kind of income after purchase. If they aren't making promises, but teaching methods that worked for them, then there's no harm.

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LB

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MJ Sterling

A lot of the big names in marketing have offered products showing how they made $20+ million in 24+ hours, which many customers rave about and helped the big names to build solid repuations in the marketing community.

It makes sense that the smaller guys will also put their best foot forward and provide products that show others the same blueprint or business model they use.

The majority of these products do not promise or make guarantees that they buyer will receive the same kind of income after purchase. If they aren't making promises, but teaching methods that worked for them, then there's no harm.

It's one thing to say, "I used this to make $150,00" but there are WSOs where the headline is "how to make..." "make..." "you can make..." Those are pretty bold statements and I don't think you'll find any big names doing that.

These are (and I'm painting with my broad brush here) some of the crappiest WSOs around and what this forum gets the biggest flak for everywhere. I think the perception of the WSO section has dropped because of it.

But Paul has said they are dealing with the other stuff first...so we'll wait and see.

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MJ Sterling

15 years ago

Originally Posted by LB

It's one thing to say, "I used this to make $150,00" but there are WSOs where the headline is "how to make..." "make..." "you can make..." Those are pretty bold statements and I don't think you'll find any big names doing that.

These are (and I'm painting with my broad brush here) some of the crappiest WSOs around and what this forum gets the biggest flak for everywhere. I think the perception of the WSO section has dropped because of it.

But Paul has said they are dealing with the other stuff first...so we'll wait and see.

I agree, telling someone they will make X amount isn't right. There's a big difference in sharing how YOU made X amount. One makes a promise, the other one doesn't.

I have seen guru's stating they made X amount in X hours in their sales videos. Frank Kern has done it and a few others.

Personally I think all WSOs should carry disclaimers.

But still, what you and I might find worthless, someone else might find incredibly valuable.

Comes down to experience maybe.

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rhinocl

15 years ago

If some one says they made a million dollars in 24 hours most people think, "I'm at least 1/10th as good as him so I'll make 100,000. Almost every offer has a statement that your earnings may differ. We expect those as they are necessary to keep people out of legal trouble. But we buy based on the ad's statement of what the seller made-so it should be true.

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shabit87

15 years ago

Originally Posted by rhinocl

If some one says they made a million dollars in 24 hours most people think, "I'm at least 1/10th as good as him so I'll make 100,000. Almost every offer has a statement that your earnings may differ. We expect those as they are necessary to keep people out of legal trouble. But we buy based on the ad's statement of what the seller made-so it should be true.

Isn't this always the case. I'm glad you said something. I personally never buy a product expecting the same results as the seller. I'm usually buying info products to learn and see how I can apply the info to my own marketing methods. Thanks for saying something rhinocl

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GeorgR.

15 years ago

Originally Posted by LB

I'll just float this out there...are there any plans to stop nearly half the WSOs from making income claims like "Make $5000 per month"? (and then of course when you read the product the guy made $165 once on one day so by extrapolation...$5k in one month!) -_-

That's what i call the "DP effect". On DP forum, i see plenty of newbie clickbank vendors who "somehow" managed it to put a product (ebook etc.) up on clickbank.

They start to sell the product. Let's say they would make their very first sale after 20 hops. As soon as they get their first sale they go on the forum and make a blatant statement "product converts 1:20"...

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James Campbell 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

Yep someone like me might just start a couple of WSO for decent products if I dont have to mix them in with some of the crap thats in there now.

Robert

Would have hit the thanks button, but that seems to have disappeared along with the search function.

I do hope you start offering some great deals via WSO

Best Regards,
James
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Gary King 15 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

There goes my "Make $1 Million Dollars in the Next 36 Hours by Scraping Email Addresses" WSO.

Cheers,
Becky

This looks good! Just ordered.

Paypal Transaction ID: 4635187 663523

Didn't receive the download link! Please PM asap.
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J Bold

15 years ago

What about backlink packets such as the hugely popular Angela's backlinks? Or the one by the Donahue guy? At least the second one does not seem to follow your new rules. Unless I'm wrong, would have to check out the service again if I can find it.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

What about backlink packets such as the hugely popular Angela's backlinks?

Answered in post 21.

Paul
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J Bold

15 years ago

Ok, I understand. You said you're not sure, but automation is frowned upon unless it's for article directories or press releases.

Not sure if you have an answer for this, yet, but let me be more specific. How about a backlinking service that gets you signature links from forum profiles? Do you consider this a violation of the TOS of a site? For example, if a WSO is a service that gets you 1000 links from different forum profiles, hard to know the TOS of every site used in the service. Also hard to know if the backlinker would use automation to do it for you, if he/she would not clearly say. From what you are writing in the PMs and the new Rule #7, seems you are possibly saying these will not be accepted anymore?

Note, there's a distinction between just getting the packets only in a WSO and doing them yourself and the service. Can you answer for both, or is this still not clear, yet?

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by redicelander

For example, if a WSO is a service that gets you 1000 links from different forum profiles, hard to know the TOS of every site used in the service. Also hard to know if the backlinker would use automation to do it for you, if he/she would not clearly say.

I'll leave it to Paul to answer your question but as to the seller not clearly saying - 1000 backlinks are almost never submitted manually even when they say they do and it would be quite a feat to keep track on 1,000 backlink sites and their TOS. I've found it somewhat possible to keep up on couple hundred plus but couldn't imagine upwards of a thousand or more.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

How about a backlinking service

No backlinking services. Manual, automatic, psychic or otherwise.

Paul

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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

No backlinking services. Manual, automatic, psychic or otherwise.

Paul

Hmmmm. Psychic backlinking?...... Wouldn't need a WSO for that. Thanks for the tip
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Azfi

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

No backlinking services. Manual, automatic, psychic or otherwise.

Paul

So any Senuke Submission Services will no longer be allowed as well? Just want to clarify as I think there are quite a few.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Azfi,

So any Senuke Submission Services will no longer be allowed as well? Just want to clarify as I think there are quite a few.

I was of the impression that it was used to submit content to sites that wanted it, as in article directories and the like. Is that inaccurate, or materially incomplete?

I'm not familiar enough with the software to give a definitive answer, so please educate me.

Paul

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4morereferrals

15 years ago

It uses proxies and it spams web 2.0 websites, as well as profile spams. It single handedly revised the way the Social Networking Software Platform | Online Social Media | KickApps - KickApps platform and its developers handle all outbound links on the profiles, blogs and photo galleries.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Azfi,I was of the impression that it was used to submit content to sites that wanted it, as in article directories and the like. Is that inaccurate, or materially incomplete?

I'm not familiar enough with the software to give a definitive answer, so please educate me.

Paul

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

It uses proxies and it spams web 2.0 websites, as well as profile spams.

Thank you. That's what I needed to know. Those will also be barred.

Paul
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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Azfi,I was of the impression that it was used to submit content to sites that wanted it, as in article directories and the like. Is that inaccurate, or materially incomplete?

I'm not familiar enough with the software to give a definitive answer, so please educate me.

Paul

SENuke can do the following:

(1) create email accounts on Yahoo, etc. for you to use;
(2) create accounts on the major social bookmarking sites;
(3) create accounts on the major article directories;
(4) create accounts on the major RSS directories;
(5) create accounts on something like 200 forum/community sites;
(6) spin/post content/links to #2-5;
(7) ping all of the links/pages created above.

Basically, its a pretty good tool

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Jill Carpenter 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

Basically, its a pretty good tool

lol, no wonder it has "Nuke" in the name.
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Andy Fletcher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Azfi,I was of the impression that it was used to submit content to sites that wanted it, as in article directories and the like. Is that inaccurate, or materially incomplete?

I'm not familiar enough with the software to give a definitive answer, so please educate me.

Paul

Some reasons I'm sure you won't like SENuke services -

- Supports proxies
- Automated profile spam
- Automated captcha breaking

I can give you more details if you need 'em but I imagine that'll suffice for you.

Cheers,

Andy

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Paul Barrs

15 years ago

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Caliban,

Precisely. This isn't unique to "a group like this," either, unless by "like this" you mean a group of people.

I mean a group like this. The WF has characteristics that are unlike any other, just as any other established group will. That does not make your point any less valid, of course.

As someone who's been very seriously studying that subject for a very long time, I have a certain perspective on it, but that perspective always comes with a huge disclaimer of "these are generalities and your specific group may not fit them."

Been doing the electronic moderating thing for 23 years. Plus more "academic" study of the subject. Some things are consistent across the board. Others change with the group, and some change with time.

That aside, I would say that, as much as anyone, I am something of an expert on the particular niche called "Warrior Forum."

Paul,

Yeah. I've seen a few copies of Mike's email. That's between him and Allen. Allen knows what's going on.

Backlinks as bonuses would be pushing my buttons, if it looked like an attempt to get around the rules...

Paul

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Caliban,I mean a group like this. The WF has characteristics that are unlike any other, just as any other established group will. That does not make your point any less valid, of course.Been doing the electronic moderating thing for 23 years. Plus more "academic" study of the subject. Some things are consistent across the board. Others change with the group, and some change with time.

That aside, I would say that, as much as anyone, I am something of an expert on the particular niche called "Warrior Forum."

Paul,

Yeah. I've seen a few copies of Mike's email. That's between him and Allen. Allen knows what's going on.

Backlinks as bonuses would be pushing my buttons, if it looked like an attempt to get around the rules...

Paul

Not only that but there's a backlinking service that's currently joined the board plus a gaming Google Maps offer.

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J Bold

15 years ago

So any backlinking services in the Warrior for Hire section will no longer be allowed as well? Just want to clarify as I think there are quite a few.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

So any backlinking services in the Warrior for Hire section will no longer be allowed as well? Just want to clarify as I think there are quite a few.

We'll get there. One thing at a time. The smart folks will start looking for other advertising venues for those offers, though, yes.

Paul
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R Hagel

15 years ago

Many thanks, Paul.

Becky

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Fernando Veloso

15 years ago

Good news, Thanks for that!

And Paul, Great copy in the OP.

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dyadvisor

15 years ago

Why are WSO posters allowed to remove the poster's remarks so freely? Sometimes they point out why future buyers should be alert to certain FACTS about misstatements and keep the integrity higher? More sales?

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Heidi White

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dyadvisor

Why are WSO posters allowed to remove the poster's remarks so freely? Sometimes they point out why future buyers should be alert to certain FACTS about misstatements and keep the integrity higher? More sales?

Yeah - it makes the buyers job of performing Due Diligence pretty darn hard when negative feedback in the WSO thread can be edited out by the WSO poster.

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Jill Carpenter 15 years ago

Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless

Yeah - it makes the buyers job of performing Due Diligence pretty darn hard when negative feedback in the WSO thread can be edited out by the WSO poster.

WSO posters pay for the advertising space. There are times of negative comments from people who did not even buy the product.

The WSO poster needs to go through the help desk to get things removed from the thread - so I would hope when things get removed they have stated a good case for it.
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- Tina Golden 15 years ago
  
  Yeah - it makes the buyers job of performing Due Diligence pretty darn hard when negative feedback in the WSO thread can be edited out by the WSO poster.
  
  Just to be clear, the poster can NOT edit out negative feedback. They can report it if it is breaking the rules and a mod must remove it.
  
  However, I have seen instances where it appears that the thread creator may have lied in order to get feedback removed. If your negative feedback is removed and you have proof that you purchased the product, I suggest opening a support ticket yourself. If this is really happening, I'm pretty sure that the powers that be would want to learn of it.
  
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Aira Bongco

15 years ago

I think Paul's point here is that they cannot directly evaluate the value of services such as blog commenting. It is a good thing for it takes care of the WSO buyers. Maybe you can just ask Paul to move your thread to the Warriors for Hire forum.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

I think Paul's point here is that they cannot directly evaluate the value of services such as blog commenting. It is a good thing for it takes care of the WSO buyers. Maybe you can just ask Paul to move your thread to the Warriors for Hire forum.

Nope. They'll get cleaned out of there as soon as I've got a decent handle on the WSO situation.

Offers that violate the TOS of other sites are not going to be welcome here. Get used to it. Find other offers or find somewhere else to sell them.

Paul

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Clyde

15 years ago

Hey Paul, just found these two WSO's that violate Rule #7. They're both by peteinoz and he just bump'ed them.

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...1-c-video.html

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...nts-382-a.html

All of the software by the same seller automates creating profile backlinks and violate other site's TOS.

You can also ban the following from being bump'ed:
1. SEO Link Dominator.
2. All the link packets.
3. All RSS Submission software that submits to other people site.

Also I think you should ban all autoblogging software as well, it's not within the TOS of the sites they fetched from.

There's also another WSO by jayanuaria that teaches people how to spam Twitter without getting banned. It's a software called TwitAttack Lite.

Here's another one by Sean Donahoe called Backlink Booster, it's a bookmarking software (againts rule) combined with mass RSS submission, link here:
http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-vanishes.html

kthxbai.

p/s: I'm a bit distressed about the whole situation as well but I guess it would be OK if all is fair play.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...1-c-video.html

He was warned. He's been banned for two weeks. Next time is much longer.

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...nts-382-a.html

RSS is an opt-in system. Explain to me, precisely, how this violates anyone's TOS. If I missed something, I'll be happy to warn them.

Paul
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jazbo

15 years ago

My personal opinion is that if you takes cursory glance through the WSO forum and then deduct the ones that will not conform to "rule 7", then the WF is going to take about a 60-70% income hit from WSO's war room signups initially.

The basic rule 7 seems to be it must not contravene another sites TOS or automate process that ends with something being placed on another site and must not use proxies. How will that be investigated and policed fairly, as it sounds like a minefield?

I totally agree that there needs to be a clean up of the more dubious WSO claims, but I do feel that quite a few legit things may take a hit as well.

Paul also mentions an automated link service someone has in the sig, and to remove it or get a temp ban. So does this mean people cannot mention things excluded by this rule 7 in signatures and the SEO forum as well?

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

Hey Paul, just found these two WSO's that violate Rule #7. They're both by peteinoz and he just bump'ed them.

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...1-c-video.html

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...nts-382-a.html

All of the software by the same seller automates creating profile backlinks and violate other site's TOS.

You can also ban the following from being bump'ed:
1. SEO Link Dominator.
2. All the link packets.
3. All RSS Submission software that submits to other people site.

Also I think you should ban all autoblogging software as well, it's not within the TOS of the sites they fetched from.

There's also another WSO by jayanuaria that teaches people how to spam Twitter without getting banned. It's a software called TwitAttack Lite.

Here's another one by Sean Donahoe called Backlink Booster, it's a bookmarking software (againts rule) combined with mass RSS submission, link here:
http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-vanishes.html

kthxbai.

p/s: I'm a bit distressed about the whole situation as well but I guess it would be OK if all is fair play.

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Mountainmotorman

15 years ago

Okay Paul so tell me HOW I VIOLATE RULE #7 with a company that I own and sites that I own and offer the ability to allow people to join as a membership on MY PRIVATE NETWORK! Pleas tell me how that does not fit into Post #21 and how that is in violation of anything?

Listen, I do understand that you need to keep controls. But, the facts are still, It is MY PRIVATE NETWORK and not some Xrummer or SENuke blasts.... It is not on other people's sites.... It is not spamming the net with crap--- It is my sites and these are mainly CPA marketers that need to get there articles on MY PRIVATE DIRECTORIES in my private network... It CLEARLY does not fall into any violation of a TOS and yet, you want me to stop bumping the thread?

Please tell me that the reason is simply, this is YOUR PLAYGROUND and you no longer want my business---- You got enough of it and now I have to leave..... That is exactly what your telling me.... Gee the $50 grand I have laid out to buy the sites and more to build it is nothing.....

Not for nothing but, I am starting a PPC campaign and I am not just using WF for customers..... Though I must admit the launch was a success here...

Please answer it clearly and not with BS---- I am a big boy and can take it---

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Okay Paul so tell me HOW I VIOLATE RULE #7

Look through the previous posts. It's real clear: No backlinking services. Now, when you get done with your vacation, learn to be civil. I am not going to debate this with everyone who thinks they have an exception.

I've seen your posts and heard your nonsense, Brian. You're not going to get away with that crap in here. And if you try that "I own the Internet" telephone harassment and threats on me or anyone else here, you're going to find out how little credit anyone with sense gives you.

Paul
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Paul Barrs

15 years ago

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Clyde

15 years ago

Originally Posted by paulbarrs

Geez Guys -

All I can say further on the topic is this...

If *I* owned a shop, I'd sure as hell be the one who decided what was being sold in that shop. No ifs, no buts, - done deal.

End of story.

Alan owns the shop. Paul is (one of) the shop keepers.

The whole WSO section is going to be bucket-loads better once we get it tidied up. It's just unfortunate that a few perhaps legit offers may also fall by the wayside. No probs, go sell 'em somewhere else; if they are *good* they'll still sell.

...

You remind me of this little country called North Korea.

What happens to the concept of "free and open market", "supply and demand" and "globalization"? Why can't buyers decide for themselves what they want to buy instead of us deciding what's "BlueFart" and what's not? mountainmotorman, I feel you brutha. Good bye old WF.

Time to start building cred. elsewhere.

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Emily Meeks

15 years ago

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

You remind me of this little country called North Korea.

What happens to the concept of "free and open market", "supply and demand" and "globalization"? Why can't buyers decide for themselves what they want to buy instead of us deciding what's "BlueFart" and what's not? mountainmotorman, I feel you brutha. Good bye old WF.

Time to start building cred. elsewhere.

Haha. WOW. Really? You're comparing a shop owner's right to choose what's being sold in his shop to North Korea??

If this was North Korea, the GOVERNMENT would decide what could and could not be sold. So to respond to your "free and open market", Allen's taking advantage of just that - by choosing not to allow others to sell BlueFart or other unscrupulous products on his forum, as he is Free and Open to Choose to do so.

As a buyer, you can buy whatever you want. Go nuts with it if it makes you happy. You're just not going to get BlueFart products in the Warrior Forum - in case you haven't noticed, the Warrior Forum gets such a high reputation because people try to keep things Clean and Ethical - that doesn't exactly mix with BlueFart. If that's your bag, go elsewhere - you're Free to Choose to do that.

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Nigel Greaves

15 years ago

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

Good bye old WF.

Wrong! It's a return to the old WF, the one which existed to help each other with high quality, ethical products. The fact that you only joined the forum so recently is probably the reason you think the current load of cr*p is the "old" WF.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Wrong! It's a return to the old WF, the one which existed to help each other with high quality, ethical products. The fact that you only joined the forum so recently is probably the reason you think the current load of cr*p is the "old" WF.

Pay attention, folks. Nigel actually remembers the "old WF."

Paul

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

GeorgR,

Yes, this will affect many types of offers. We knew that when we made the decision. Or, more precisely, when we talked about it before Allen made the decision. And I am now leaning toward banning the link lists, along with the services.

peteinoz pushed that a long way, when he bumped a thread that he'd been asked not to bump. Yes, he may have made an innocent mistake. That's likely, in fact. He may have bumped before doing customer service, which includes checking PMs.

Small foul, short term penalty. I'm not looking to pound good people. But we will get rid of this stuff.

Been there, done that. Got the callouses.

Paul

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Done. Link packets are out, too. I will be warning those folks along with the other barred services and offers.

The process continues...

Paul
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4morereferrals

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

GeorgR,

And I am now leaning toward banning the link lists, along with the services.

peteinoz pushed that a long way, when he bumped a thread that he'd been asked not to bump. Yes, he may have made an innocent mistake. That's likely, in fact. He may have bumped before doing customer service, which includes checking PMs.

Paul

Paul,

I dont see how you can ban some backlink related services, products, offers etc and not all - Angela's Lists Pauls Lists and so many others. They are used to violate TOS.

No offense to Pete In Oz - I think he's a great guy - but fair is fair and violations of TOS are violations of TOS. Using automated tools to PUMP your rss feeds [ aka SPAM them] to RSS aggregators is most likely a violation of their TOS. What am I missing?

If we're not playing the exception game ... think it needs to apply to ALL.

All Im asking for is fairness. I respect the decision either way and understand the reasons, and am not against it if thats whats best for the warrior forum. But it truly needs to apply evenly and fairly - regardless of one's tenure or perceived "integrity"

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halfpoint

15 years ago

Originally Posted by 4morereferrals

Paul,

I dont see how you can ban some backlink related services, products, offers etc and not all - Angela's Lists Pauls Lists and so many others. They are used to violate TOS.

No offense to Pete In Oz - I think he's a great guy - but fair is fair and violations of TOS are violations of TOS. Using automated tools to PUMP your rss feeds [ aka SPAM them] to RSS aggregators is most likely a violation of their TOS. What am I missing?

If we're not playing the exception game ... think it needs to apply to ALL.

All Im asking for is fairness. I respect the decision either way and understand the reasons, and am not against it if thats whats best for the warrior forum. But it truly needs to apply evenly and fairly - regardless of one's tenure or perceived "integrity"

Steve,

See the post at the top of this page;

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Done. Link packets are out, too. I will be warning those folks along with the other barred services and offers.

The process continues...

Paul

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

But it truly needs to apply evenly and fairly - regardless of one's tenure or perceived "integrity"

Excuse me?

My first pass through, I read everything on the first 2.5 pages that looked like it might fall into the backlinking category, including WSOs from other moderators. Some of the people who were asked not to bump or re-post offers have been here a long time and have great reputations, including some that I happen to personally like and think of highly.

I've been quite clear that this is a process, not an instantaneous act. And that I will make mistakes. Leaving the opportunity to fix those is one reason I'm not starting to delete anything yet. When the dust settles, I may spend the cycles to consider letting the offers back in that involve people selling links on sites they own personally. I'm not clear on how I'd verify that, though, which is the problem at the moment.

Contrary to what people seem to think, this isn't about Google. Not from my perspective. It never has been. It's about all those blogs and forums and directories that are getting abused by these actions.

I couldn't care less about Google. They're big people. They can take care of themselves.

Using automated tools to PUMP your rss feeds [aka SPAM them] to RSS aggregators is most likely a violation of their TOS. What am I missing?

Specifics. I asked this of someone previously: Show me the TOS that forbids it. I've never seen anything like that in the terms of an RSS aggregator. Granted, I've only read a couple dozen of them, and I could have missed it.

Show me.

Paul
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- 4morereferrals 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Excuse me?
  
  Paul
  
  I apologize if I articulated something in a manner that was smart ass'd or impolite. Not my intention I can assure you.
  
  I missed your post up above about the link packets now being seen as similar rule #7 violations.
  
  The comment about other's perceived tenure or reps was not directed at your tenure or rep - but other warriors who will have offers in violation of the rule #7. I understand fully its a process and not an instant clean out.
  
  On the specifics of an rss agg sites tos - I will dig into it further. I mention it as Ive hit a warning on one of them with a macro that automated the process of adding my blog's rss feeds to them. Like you Im not to sure I have the cycle's to go read their TOS.
  
  Actually I think - I'll just roll with the flow .. and shut my yap trap and move on about business. The links packets issues are resolved.
  
  I too have a "network" of sorts I moderate etc .. Id like to see how the selling of access to ones "sites" unfolds.
  
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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

You remind me of this little country called North Korea.

What happens to the concept of "free and open market", "supply and demand" and "globalization"? Why can't buyers decide for themselves what they want to buy instead of us deciding what's "BlueFart" and what's not? mountainmotorman, I feel you brutha. Good bye old WF.

Time to start building cred. elsewhere.

I don't think you have to worry about your "cred" here anymore.

rofl

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Michael,

I don't think you have to worry about your "cred" here anymore.

I'm waiting for MountainMotorMouth and unlimitedsubmissives to take it offline. I'm betting they're not as good at phreaking as they are at IP spoofing or proxying.

MMM might benefit from getting the chance to test his prison phone service from the other side of The Wall.

Paul

PS: Why did I just hear a snippet of Pink Floyd?

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Michael,I'm waiting for MountainMotorMouth and unlimitedsubmissives to take it offline. I'm betting they're not as good at phreaking as they are at IP spoofing or proxying.

MMM might benefit from getting the chance to test his prison phone service from the other side of The Wall.

Paul

PS: Why did I just hear a snippet of Pink Floyd?

Well that's unfortunate that people would go so far as to turn it into a real game of federal crime using phones for harassment.

I guess I just don't understand why they don't see it as an opportunity to respond to the "hole" that has been created in their market. The Warrior Forum has decided that certain products and services are no longer welcome.

So why not create their own marketspace, their own forums, and attract likeminded customers and vendors to their own bazaar, and just go on down the road like merry bandits?

ps... don't envy you in the moderator seat. BTDT.... got the t-shirt. Never again.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Michael,

Well that's unfortunate that people would go so far as to turn it into a real game of federal crime using phones for harassment.

It won't be anything new. I've had people call my house at 4 AM making death threats. One twit was stunned when I knew who he was. Now I don't even need to know. I have a "friend" who works for the phone company...

So why not create their own marketspace, their own forums, and attract likeminded customers and vendors to their own bazaar, and just go on down the road like merry bandits?

You mean like the guy who posted earlier that they should use their alleged SEO talents to get traffic from search engines? THAT boy will do well from this. All the idiots who're whining are just proving they haven't a clue.

ps... don't envy you in the moderator seat. BTDT.... got the t-shirt. Never again.

Spent 6 months cleaning the email spammers out of here, way back in the day. These noodges are cake and ice cream compared to that crowd.

Paul

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XFactor

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Michael,It won't be anything new. I've had people call my house at 4 AM making death threats. One twit was stunned when I knew who he was. Now I don't even need to know. I have a "friend" who works for the phone company...You mean like the guy who posted earlier that they should use their alleged SEO talents to get traffic from search engines? THAT boy will do well from this. All the idiots who're whining are just proving they haven't a clue.Spent 6 months cleaning the email spammers out of here, way back in the day. These noodges are cake and ice cream compared to that crowd.

Paul

I'm amazed that you have the stamina for these individuals Paul. I've
attracted a couple of stalkers myself and will never understand their
mentality.

- John

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

John,

I'm amazed that you have the stamina for these individuals Paul. I've attracted a couple of stalkers myself and will never understand their mentality.

I understand it. It disgusts me, but I understand it. I've dealt with a lot of them over 23 years of this stuff.

Doesn't take stamina. It's all just details. Allen is the only one here who has the faintest idea how "effective" I can be at this stuff. And that's only a faint idea.

And I have a very long memory.

Paul
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Derek,
  
  (I'm curious how old I was when you joined)
  
  11 or 12. I joined in 97 or 98.
  
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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Michael,It won't be anything new. I've had people call my house at 4 AM making death threats. One twit was stunned when I knew who he was.
Paul

My goodness that is sad. Very sorry its come to that. Thats totally ridiculous.

I'm no kiss up. Ive disgreed with things but fair is fair. I can entirely see where it would be impossible to police each WSO and know what is in each of them and yes backlinking packages and services have the look now of the inappropriate under all circumstances. Warrior forums didn't do that. Collectively thats the backlinks niche sellers fault.

A rule is a rule and as of this morning even my sig is gone (I voluntarily removed it) and you know what?

As unbelievable as it may sound. I'm glad. I only wanted it to be spelt out and across the board with no favoritism and thats exactly what I am seeing. (Kudos Paul I was next to sure I would get slapped and others would be let off the hook. Includng packets tells me you are really serious because some pretty popular people just got news I never ever thought they would get).

I think it will make for an entirely different atmosphere on Warriors and now people can talk about white hat SEO without being laughed out of the forum (I can point you to threads where I got attacked just for bringing it up).

So from a guy that sold a packet heres my call to others. Its just an opportunity to show that you can do SEO. Why get upset? You must have some other SEO skills that are White hat. This is an opportunity to expand into areas that I know I have always wanted to go in on warriors.

Now without the self backlinking services people might actually give those white hat techniques a try (like non controversial linkbait/ link magnets that are all aceptable SEO even by Google's standards). I think thats a good thing. It builds a more long term business going forward. Instead of getting upset lets see those SEO skills and creativity without the grey hat.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Now without the self backlinking services people might actually give those white hat techniques a try (like non controversial linkbait/ link magnets that are all aceptable SEO even by Google's standards). I think thats a good thing. It builds a more long term business going forward. Instead of getting upset lets see those SEO skills and creativity without the grey hat.

Mike, this is actually a chance for people who really know SEO (not me

)
to not only clean up with their own sites but to teach others how to do
this themselves.

SEO has been one of the areas where I am sorely lacking in skills and admit
it freely. My knowledge would be considered basic even by 2003 standards.

So you SEO experts...here's your chance to teach me something without
me having to worry about getting sandboxed by Google and banned from
every social bookmarking and networking site on the planet.

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

So you SEO experts...here's your chance to teach me something without
me having to worry about getting sandboxed by Google and banned from
every social bookmarking and networking site on the planet.

Steve you seem to do just fine without it

. I don't want to derail the thread but given some people are getting so offended and seem to want to jump off a bridge maybe I can talk them down.

There are many ways of getting backlinks without just sitting there and hoping it happens. Providing a resource that people want and distributing it is totally white hat and effective. I can get a hundred backlinks in a day all white hat by providing a resource. One resource I've shared in the SEO section is what I have done with themes (buy unique ones and distribute them to sites that cover new themes - theres tons of them). A few people have tried it and loved it. Totally white hat. the sites WANT and exist to share the resource.

Most People though didn't want to hear about it while they could pay a guy $17 for 20,000 low quality links with a push of a button. The thousands sounded too much sexier. Thats just one way. add a little creative juice and there are a number of other techniques.

Also Keep an eye on Wordpress 3.0 Steve. Been playing with the possibilities and there will be some killer White Hat strategies emerging from it. So no need for anyone to jump off the bridge. Just get creative and stay white hat and you will be fine. In fact white hat changes your perpective. You are more open to building a business not just loking for a button to push.

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yousefgreat

15 years ago

Paul, I will abide with the rules and will never bump or repost that thread again per your request.

I have had great clients from here and I must admit that Warriors have the greatest mentalities and have proved to be the most professional when it comes to communication. ( I used to be a member of 10's of marketing forums out there offering similar services )

If there is any way I can have my WSO edited or changed in a way to make it legit or bumpable, please let me know, I definitely would love to continue business over here.

I can even get 100 signatures from Warriors from here to support this thread if that will help. So far there are 100's of happy clients, 100's of positive reviews to prove that this does work, 100'+ bumps for that thread and 100's of days I spent happily monitoring and replying back to this thread.

Let me know if there is any single chance... I definitely will give it a shot no matter what!

Thanks for your precious time.

PS: This will be my last post regarding this topic. I don't want to start getting on your nerves, Paul!

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by yousefgreat

If there is any way I can have my WSO edited or changed in a way to make it legit or bumpable, please let me know, I definitely would love to continue business over here.

I can even get 100 signatures from Warriors from here to support this thread if that will help. So far there are 100's of happy clients, 100's of positive reviews to prove that this does work, 100'+ bumps for that thread and 100's of days I spent happily monitoring and replying back to this thread.

Let me know if there is any single chance... I definitely will give it a shot no matter what!

This is just my opinion...

However, if you think that merely changing the wording of your WSO -- or getting signatures to prove it works -- is going to make your WSO acceptable on the WF, then you're not quite understanding why this rule is in place and why it's now being enforced.

It's not about your customers and whether they're satisfied or not. It's not about whether your customers are getting results. It's about what your customers are doing to other peoples' sites.

Cheers,
Becky

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yousefgreat

15 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

This is just my opinion...

However, if you think that merely changing the wording of your WSO -- or getting signatures to prove it works -- is going to make your WSO acceptable on the WF, then you're not quite understanding why this rule is in place and why it's now being enforced.

It's not about your customers and whether they're satisfied or not. It's not about whether your customers are getting results. It's about what your customers are doing to other peoples' sites.

Cheers,
Becky

Becky, I get the point now.

Thanks for clearing that out and yes it is true that building up link juice might not work out for the other side's favor (The blog/domain commented on). It's just how this service worked out.

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by yousefgreat

If there is any way I can have my WSO edited or changed in a way to make it legit or bumpable, please let me know, I definitely would love to continue business over here.

You appear to have many offers. Why would you not be able to continue an ebook writing service?

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Kay King 15 years ago

Even though WSO's didn't exist back in '05

Yes they did - they just didn't slap you in the face with outlandish promises. In 2005 they were often discounts on top products that were selling great on the member's own website and offered for a limited time at a special price here.

There's at least one who was 5 when I joined.

I think there's more than one - and a few stuck at that emotional age, too.:rolleyes:

kay
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Paul Barrs 15 years ago

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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Paul,
  
  It's the old WF that many of us want back. You havn't yet been around to even *know* what the old WF was.
  
  Come on, man. There are members who were 8 and 10 years old when you and I got started here. It's not their fault they're young.
  
  Paul
  
  Edit: There's at least one who was 5 when I joined.
  
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Karen Blundell

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Michael,I'm waiting for MountainMotorMouth and unlimitedsubmissives to take it offline. I'm betting they're not as good at phreaking as they are at IP spoofing or proxying.

MMM might benefit from getting the chance to test his prison phone service from the other side of The Wall.

Paul

PS: Why did I just hear a snippet of Pink Floyd?

speaking of spoofing...I've been through enough crap with people email spoofing so I had to learn fast about certain server settings that I can implement...but it can get old real fast when you work real hard to build up sites only to have your stuff stolen, including your email address!

I'm so glad steps have been taken to eliminate WSO products which advocate "scraping" content from other people's sites without their permission ie; auto blogging, etc...It's so annoying that people think just cause you have an RSS feed that somewhow they can just put that content on their sites and claim it as their own.

And the backlink packets were always a temptation to me, but I never bought and there's a reason: Why pay for something when you can get all the natural backlinks you want by simply giving away something free with a link back to your site?

I think it's about time the rubbish is removed from the WSO section. Kudos to the powers that be who are taking steps to clean this place up.

Hope you all have a great Sunday. It feels like summer here in Niagara...how can I possibly complain about anything today...lol?

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

You remind me of this little country called North Korea.

Bye. You get 2 weeks to develop your cred. Elsewhere.

I've been civil, and I've been fair. I am not, however, going to play this game.

Paul
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sbucciarel

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

You remind me of this little country called North Korea.

What happens to the concept of "free and open market", "supply and demand" and "globalization"? Why can't buyers decide for themselves what they want to buy instead of us deciding what's "BlueFart" and what's not? mountainmotorman, I feel you brutha. Good bye old WF.

Time to start building cred. elsewhere.

Funny ... some of you don't get this at all. Someone wants to run a Whitehat forum and over time, the products being sold have been increasingly black hat. If you owned a forum that was constantly under attack by spammers, you'd probably recognize the need for TOS and you'd have a better appreciation for the TOS of other sites.

You probably have no idea the man hours it takes to keep a forum free of the scum that try to fill it up with spam. It's the same with any other site, social networking, blogs, forums, etc. They are constantly under attack by low life spammers who don't care one bit about degrading the property they are attacking with their spam.

If you own a site, and appreciate the hard work it takes to keep it free of these scumbags, how could you in good conscience, allow these same spammers to profit in your forum from the very same "tools" being used to degrade and attack other sites? Wouldn't that be hypocritical?

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Somebody needs to bring the thank you button back, because there have
been some excellent replies in this thread that deserve that and more,
especially the gentleman who gets it even though this is going to hurt a lot
of people's incomes.

These are the days I'm proud to be a Warrior.

This is what makes me want to keep coming back to this forum.

Paul, I know I'm a nobody around here, but if you want my help with
anything, you have my number...just let me know. I'm here if you need me.

Thanks to the members who obviously saw the "Tearful Indian" ad.

You get it.

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A Bary

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Somebody needs to bring the thank you button back, because there have
been some excellent replies in this thread that deserve that and more,
especially the gentleman who gets it even though this is going to hurt a lot
of people's incomes.

These are the days I'm proud to be a Warrior.

This is what makes me want to keep coming back to this forum.

Paul, I know I'm a nobody around here, but if you want my help with
anything, you have my number...just let me know. I'm here if you need me.

Thanks to the members who obviously saw the "Tearful Indian" ad.

You get it.

Steven, thanks for this post, can't say it better

And Paul, your efforts are a big and BRAVE move, I believe it wasn't easy for you and Allen to make such decisions, but these regulations are what exactly this forum needs..

Thanks for the great efforts, I wish I could help, but I am confident you and other great mods here well do it perfectly.

A Bary

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Zach Booker 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Zach,No. I'm saying that most of the offers I've seen in that field involve abuse of other sites' TOS. So, most of them will eventually come down.

Paul

Got ya.

Originally Posted by unlimitedsubmissions

Good bye old WF.

You've been here how long, again?

Oh yeah...under a month.

lol
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Zach,
  
  You've been here how long, again?
  
  Oh yeah...under a month.
  
  lol
  
  Careful about assuming anything around the dates in a user profile. Dude could have been here for years under another name and been banned. There's more of that going on than you might think.
  
  Paul
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  "Gee look guys - see me steal ... look at me loook at me arent I cool ... I cant make my own ... anything - but I can rip off from others, please give me "a rep +"""
  
  Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
  
  I believe your assessment of them as pathetic is quite generous. That said, there's not much to be done about some of them. I've gotten a few shut down, but they just move to less discerning hosts and upload it all again. Others start with hosts they know won't bother, or use services that can be worked around.
  
  Scum will be scum, ya know? Unless, of course, you can get a face-to-face with them...
  
  Paul
  
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  Nathan Alexander 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
  
  Other great line: "Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?"
  
  Vasquez: "No, have you?"
  
  Thanks Paul, LOVE that movie.
  
  In line with the thread...as someone who doesn't know what all the hats mean, it'll be nice to have less stuff to think I supposed to learn about.
  
  Thanks for the work you guys do.
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Nathan,
  
  Other great line: "Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?"
  
  Vasquez: "No, have you?"
  
  Thanks Paul, LOVE that movie.
  
  It was either that line or "Power up the orbital nuclear death ray platform," and I'm betting there aren't 3 people in this whole group who'd know the source on that one.
  
  Paul
  
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LB

15 years ago

When this forum started many years ago being a "warrior" was a mindset. Warriors wouldn't spam up other peoples' sites without permission just to get links. Now it's become almost accepted practice. I'm glad to see the change although I can appreciate that there will be some fallout with some legit offers.

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Kay King 15 years ago

Time to start building cred. elsewhere.

I'm sorry - but 6 weeks as a member, no name and 4 WSOs isn't "cred" - it's taking advantage of an opportunity.

Nothing wrong with that unless you start demanding your "rights" on a site owned by someone else.

Most here will wait and see what the changes are and how they are personally affected and then will go with the new rules. The WF will be better for buyers and sellers and those who can't deal with it will take their shovels and go dig for $$ elsewhere.

Fair enough.
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Kella Bella

15 years ago

Well darn Paul n Becky now I gotta scrap that psychic backlink blog I have been working on for two months since I joined and just set up on wordpress. Please don't say I shouldn't have done that cause remember I'm psychic n I already know what you are going to say!

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David Mcalorum

15 years ago

I am Paul Myers coaching student.

He is a awesome guy, great teacher, and he clearly knows his stuff.

I would suggest you listen to what he says.

-Dave

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Dave,

I am Paul Myers coaching student.

Wrong Paul Myers. I have no coaching students.

Paul
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yommys01

15 years ago

Does the law apply to Angela type of backlink services?

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GeorgR.

15 years ago

Paul,

i am little puzzled now about the "no backlink services" rule since this is new to me. I quickly checked the WSO rules and didn't see this mentioned.

I saw the "No TOS violation" in rule #7. You might want to clarify this and add to the rules exactly what is not allowed so we know what is not permissable. As i take it this this would include all forms of "link submission" as well as whatever kind of link building "service"...profile building, auto social bookmarking and so forth? I am afraid this would affect MANY, many WSOs.

And..let's not forget CPA e-whoring...oh, well...this is a can of worms here....

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nossie

15 years ago

Its just some people have invested big money for selling stuff in this forum (like me) and now they get to hear "sorry you cannot do it anymore". I can understand people feel a sad about it.

I guess we need to move on and adapt

I can understand the decision though, it would be a much cleaner place with all those crappy products going away.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Koen,

Its just some people have invested big money for selling stuff in this forum (like me) and now they get to hear "sorry you cannot do it anymore". I can understand people feel a sad about it.

I guess we need to move on and adapt

I can understand the decision though, it would be a much cleaner place with all those crappy products going away.

That is the response of a gentleman and an adult to changing situations. Thank you, sir!

The thing that gets me is that this was announced months ago. I can't imagine everyone thought the new rule was never going to be enforced. Yet folks act like this should be some huge surprise. I've been making noises about it for a long time. There was plenty of opportunity to develop new sales channels...

Paul

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

BTW, Koen... Lose the LinkAloha link in your sig. When the search function is active again and I have five minutes or so, I'm going to give everyone with that in their sig a little extra free time...

We don't want those inbound, either.

Paul
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Martin Luxton

15 years ago

Originally Posted by yousefgreat

Hello Warriors,

[snip]

Today, I received a PM from a Warrior named "Paul Meyers" to stop bumping the WSO due to changes in WF Rules.

I think this is hilarious and is one of the symptoms of the WSO problems.

Someone who has been a member since November 2008 with 245 posts has no idea who Paul Meyers (sic) is.

Guess he must spend all his time in the WSO Forum.

Maybe there's an algorithm you could implement there, Paul.

If more than 90% of your total posts are in your own WSO threads you get a polite invitation to come and say 'Hello' to the main discussion forum.

Martin

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tj

15 years ago

My wife Sherice (ecoverartist) spent a lot of time on here at one point but left when it started getting seedy. We're looking forward to the new "old" forum - the way it was back when it meant something to be a Warrior

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by tj

My wife Sherice (ecoverartist) spent a lot of time on here at one point but left when it started getting seedy. We're looking forward to the new "old" forum - the way it was back when it meant something to be a Warrior

TJ, a lot of people from even when I joined in 2006 are no longer around.
And some of them were some pretty good folk.

Yeah, this cleanup is going to shake out the riff-raff all right.

Wonder who's gonna be left when the dust settles?

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Tina Golden 15 years ago

Wonder who's gonna be left when the dust settles?

The cream of the crop, hopefully. I also think as things settle, we'll see a return of some of the great people who used to post here more frequently.

Tina
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- Jill Carpenter 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim
  
  Paul, I know I'm a nobody around here,
  
  Yes, who are you? :rolleyes:
  
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  Jill Carpenter 15 years ago
  
  A new comment just found in the WSO's:
  
  Excellent package!!!
  
  I've only opened the first file and the list of sites were awesome. Great steal.
  
  I really hope you limit the packages though
  
  I have a feeling this person won't be disappointed. Sounds like it's about to become very limited.
  
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Imran Naseem

Banned 15 years ago

At the end of the day the Mods and the Admins have the final say.

No point complaining or bitching. If the mods want to enforce the law so be it. This is a great community and we should be all lucky to have an opportunity to be able to post a WSO to potentially thousands of thousands of potential customers.

The WSO Forum is a goldmine - you can even build an entire list from scratch from this marketplace. Throughout the years Allen has slowly made a few changes but that has never really affected my business online.

So to the complainers stop complaining and get over it.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Imran Naseem

At the end of the day the Mods and the Admins have the final say.

No point complaining or bitching. If the mods want to enforce the law so be it. This is a great community and we should be all lucky to have an opportunity to be able to post a WSO to potentially thousands of thousands of potential customers.

The WSO Forum is a goldmine - you can even build an entire list from scratch from this marketplace. Throughout the years Allen has slowly made a few changes but that has never really affected my business online.

So to the complainers stop complaining and get over it.

Somebody else who gets it. Damn, where is that thank you button?

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LB

15 years ago

My personal opinion is that if you takes cursory glance through the WSO forum and then deduct the ones that will not conform to "rule 7", then the WF is going to take about a 60-70% income hit from WSO's war room signups initially.

Perhaps. But it will only be temporary.

A rising tide raises all ships.

Years ago many of the bigger marketing "names" would release WSOs but they've left along with a lot of good offers. After a brief clean-out phase I predict the WSO forum will be busier than ever.

If someone asked what you did for a living, would you want to show them the WSO forum in its current state as an illustration? Not me.

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tommygadget

15 years ago

@Paul Myers & Allen -> I for one am really glad you are taking this step to weed out the garbage in the WSO forum. While some good people there will have to adapt, it was a long time in coming. I was looking to scope out the competition for around 4 new products I have in the pipeline and honestly, I bought several hundred dollars worth of related WSOs ranging from $7 to over $47 and I was really, really shocked by the quality. I am not going to throw stones, but they all shared the same basic qualities:

1) Titles: "Learn How I Made Over $xxx in x Hours With No Website And No List!" All the same flavor of A) Income claims, and B) without the work associated with building real businesses providing real value.
2) WSO Content: The actual ebooks themselves were nothing more than (real examples) -> Find a popular product on Clickbank and write a compelling forum sig. and spam the forums. -> Find a high converting affiliate program on CJ and write an article about it and post that article to EZA and 20 other directories with your affiliate link (even though EZA does not allow this), etc. Total garbage.
3) Comments in the WSO thread saying how the information is "solid" and newbies would benefit greatly from it. Notice what's missing? Yea, so do I.

It is a bewildering mess and I am optimistic about the eventual quality of the WSO section improving. Despite the initial loss in income from cra$$y WSOs or War Room registrations, the WF's reputation is FAR more important in the long run and when people see that you are serious about maintaining a high standard, you will then get higher quality offers AND clients. Just my $0.02.

TomG.

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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

I was crystal clear until a few moments ago so thought I would check in here.

Aren't signature links to offending offers banned as well? I am not in the reporting mood. I jsut want to know. The one I see is practically a protest signature to the new policy directing people to where they can get those products and talk grey hat.
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p2y

15 years ago

So would directory submission/article submission/press release submission software be allowed if it had captcha solving or click on the "click here to confirm your submission" type links?

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

So would directory submission/article submission/press release submission software be allowed if it had captcha solving or click on the "click here to confirm your submission" type links?

Not enough info to answer, although captcha breaking is a red flag.

My first question would be: Does it submit to any other sort of site?

Paul

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p2y 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Not enough info to answer, although captcha breaking is a red flag.

My first question would be: Does it submit to any other sort of site?

Paul

No, only websites dedicated to receiving submissions from webmasters for example:

Sites Director - Seo friendly User friendly WebDirectory - free links- Submit Link - directory submission site

Article Dashboard Directory | Submit Articles | Search Find Free Content | Author Submission - article submission site

Free Press Release - subimt your press release for free - press release submission site
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  No, only websites dedicated to receiving submissions from webmasters
  
  I would tend to think those would be okay, but that depends on whether there are other factors I don't know about.
  
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theimdude

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Not enough info to answer, although captcha breaking is a red flag.

My first question would be: Does it submit to any other sort of site?

Paul

I own a few article directories and one link directory. As far as I as a owner is concerned I don't care if those that submit use automated tools to submit article and links. All my sites has captcha activated and this helps for spam. I personally don't take it that authors submitting articles and link to my sites as spam as duplicates is removed anycase.

On the few article directories that can take comments I moderate them and have spam askimet activated and no spammer get past.

I want marketers to submit to my sites as it is a win win situation for me and the author.

I also use all of big mikes software and presume most people that submit to my sites could be as well. Providing it is not rubbish submitted I am happy.

This is my personal opinion.

As a suggestion mabey you should let all the WSO's run until they on page 5 or whatever and let them die out. Implement the new rules and clear all new WSO's to comply when they submitted. I think this will give all current WSO's owners time to adjust.

People don't like change especially if it is sudden.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

As a suggestion mabey you should let all the WSO's run until they on page 5 or whatever and let them die out. Implement the new rules and clear all new WSO's to comply when they submitted. I think this will give all current WSO's owners time to adjust.

That would work, except for one small detail: Bumping.

People don't like change especially if it is sudden.

The rule has been there. I've been telling people this was coming. It's not like they shouldn't have been prepared.

Paul

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That would work, except for one small detail: Bumping.The rule has been there. I've been telling people this was coming. It's not like they shouldn't have been prepared.

Paul

True, except it appears that the decisions coming down (more "bright-line" rules) are going above and beyond rule #7 (violation of other sites TOS's) (or the other rules) now.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Tom,

True, except it appears that the decisions coming down (more "bright-line" rules) are going above and beyond rule #7 (violation of other sites TOS's) (or the other rules) now.

And which would those be?

I can think of one: Backlinks posted on sites belonging to the person making the offer. That is as much a matter of time and verification as it is of making the point very clear. Beyond that, what do you see as going beyond the stated purpose of that rule?

Paul
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- Rich Mann 15 years ago
  
  As along time member of this forum, I have to say my hat is off to Allen, Paul and all the other admins and mods for taking a strong stand to return this forum to it's former glory of integrity and honesty.
  
  I have been a member since about 2003 (my old user ID got trashed in the 2005 conversion) and although I'm not a prolific poster and have never actually ran a WSO, I initially joined to learn. Learn from some of the best marketers on the net.
  
  I have watched this forum (not a lurker) evolve from a somewhat small group of brilliant marketers dedicated to teaching the beginners the ropes, into a massive community. The transition has been nothing short of amazing.
  
  But, as with any sprawling community, there's bound to be less than desirable elements that infest like weeds. Solution: weed the garden AKA houseclean.
  
  Paul, I've been on your mailing list for years and I consider you one of the most genuine and integrity minded people I know. It's an awesome responsibility (thank God not mine) to make and carry out decisions that affect so many people.
  
  To those that haven't been here long, the changes might seem radical. But for those of us that have been here for awhile, the changes from the way it was to the way it has become seem just as radical.
  
  There will be many more new opportunities that will open up for everyone once the dust settles. For those that learn to adapt and prepare for those new opportunities, I'm confident there will be some prosperous times ahead.
  
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theimdude

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That would work, except for one small detail: Bumping.The rule has been there. I've been telling people this was coming. It's not like they shouldn't have been prepared.
Paul

I only buy so weren't aware people were warned. Oh well for them then they have to move to b.....h..com if they didn't listen as that is where they belong.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

That would work, except for one small detail: Bumping.

Why not turn off bumping for all WSOs before a certain date? If you want to bump your WSO, buy a new one (subject to re-approval), and optionally link to your previous one so people can read the comments on it.

Here's a truly twisted but only semi-related idea: your WSO runs for half as long as you've been on the WF when you post it, and then the thread is removed. So if you want your WSO to run for a week, you'd better not post it until you've been here for two weeks.

I haven't really examined all the ramifications of that... it would inevitably lead to accusations of an "old boy's network," since people like Paul could run a WSO for almost a decade... but it seems like it has some legs.

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Why not turn off bumping for all WSOs before a certain date? If you want to bump your WSO, buy a new one (subject to re-approval), and optionally link to your previous one so people can read the comments on it.

LOL, give me a heads up so I can get on that front page before this takes effect.

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Here's a truly twisted but only semi-related idea: your WSO runs for half as long as you've been on the WF when you post it, and then the thread is removed. So if you want your WSO to run for a week, you'd better not post it until you've been here for two weeks.

I haven't really examined all the ramifications of that... it would inevitably lead to accusations of an "old boy's network," since people like Paul could run a WSO for almost a decade... but it seems like it has some legs.

I like this one too. Or, how about your WSO is good for the # of posts you have - meaning a post means one day. I'll be up for a while. :p

The issue of working with the # of days is all the dummy accounts sitting and waiting to be used.

Not to say there wouldn't be issues with going by the # of posts one has - but it should all make for interesting conversation on FNC later.

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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

How about just stop all bumping totally. When bumping was first allowed it was the first foot in the door to where we are now anyway.

For those who want to keep the testimonials from a previous WSO.. Warrior Plus WSO Tracker has full listings of all WSO's going back several years and had the full threads for each including the testimonials. There is no need to keep the old thread alive since Mike archives them.

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Why not turn off bumping for all WSOs before a certain date? If you want to bump your WSO, buy a new one (subject to re-approval), and optionally link to your previous one so people can read the comments on it.

Here's a truly twisted but only semi-related idea: your WSO runs for half as long as you've been on the WF when you post it, and then the thread is removed. So if you want your WSO to run for a week, you'd better not post it until you've been here for two weeks.

I haven't really examined all the ramifications of that... it would inevitably lead to accusations of an "old boy's network," since people like Paul could run a WSO for almost a decade... but it seems like it has some legs.

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

For those who want to keep the testimonials from a previous WSO.. Warrior Plus WSO Tracker has full listings of all WSO's going back several years and had the full threads for each including the testimonials. There is no need to keep the old thread alive since Mike archives them.

This might be getting off the track a bit, but I just had to comment on this piece...

Namely, I wouldn't trust or rely on a third-party site to handle some function of the forum. Mike may change his business model, he may close shop, he may sell the site to someone else, his database and all backups could blow up and disappear tomorrow. There are any number of things that could happen.

If someone wants to save testimonials, they should get a screenshot, put 'em in a PDF file, make a video, get audio testimonials, or just list them on their sales page like normal. But I'd tell folks not to depend on the WF or WP to retain their testimonials.

Sorry for the interruption -- carry on.

Cheers,
Becky

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

If there were ever something to clean up - it would be those warriors with dual personalities ... their integrous warrior face - and then their product stealing BHW retard face.

4morereferrals - Just a note that the people doing this are not necessarily Warriors, in name or action. Anyone can buy a WSO, not just actual members. I'm sure there are some that are signed up and doing this but don't assume they all are.

Tina

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

4morereferrals - Just a note that the people doing this are not necessarily Warriors, in name or action. Anyone can buy a WSO, not just actual members. I'm sure there are some that are signed up and doing this but don't assume they all are.

Tina

Well, there was one particular culprit (identified by his purchase dates of the WSOs), who bought many many WSOs here and then put them up on feedurbrain and other sites, was clearly a member here. Probably the worst WSO copyright infringer of the bunch.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 15 years ago

How's this for ironic. Guess what Mike Lantz's WarriorPlus "WSO of the Day" is? Yep - backlinking

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Kurt

15 years ago

I have a product that has lists of links and ways to automate the process.

The product also includes info that people should respect other sites and participate so that their links will last (avoid link decay). It doesn't do much good if you build links only to have them deleted, and could actually hurt.

I also include automation software to register for accounts. My advice is to register for accounts, see which sites actually work, THEN decide which sites to participate on, after they know which sites actually function. Why waste time researching communities to join, only to see that there registration and email process doesn't even work?

Or how about LinkVana? Dave Kelly uses his own blogs to post links. This is fine, however the benefit is to manipulate Google's SERPS, which is clearly against Google's TOS. But they aren't Google's sites.

While I do agree it's Allen's choice to make, I don't like the decision, at least the guidelines, which seem to make everything black or white when in reality most things are shades of gray.

I like how the courts ruled about Napster and file sharing...Napster software could be used for legit reasons, so the software wasn't said to be illegal. If software and advice can be used for legit and illegit reasons, I feel we should assume it is legit.

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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

You seem to mistakenly think this is a democracy. This is Allen's house and it's his rules. Like them or hate them, we as users have no say in what rules Allen and the mods choose to put in place. Since Allen owns this particular piece of internet real estate he has the right to make and enforce any rules he sees fit. It quite honestly is his way or the highway.

Originally Posted by Kurt

I have a product that has lists of links and ways to automate the process.

The product also includes info that people should respect other sites and participate so that their links will last (avoid link decay). It doesn't do much good if you build links only to have them deleted, and could actually hurt.

I also include automation software to register for accounts. My advice is to register for accounts, see which sites actually work, THEN decide which sites to participate on, after they know which sites actually function. Why waste time researching communities to join, only to see that there registration and email process doesn't even work?

Or how about LinkVana? Dave Kelly uses his own blogs to post links. This is fine, however the benefit is to manipulate Google's SERPS, which is clearly against Google's TOS. But they aren't Google's sites.

While I do agree it's Allen's choice to make, I don't like the decision, at least the guidelines, which seem to make everything black or white when in reality most things are shades of gray.

I like how the courts ruled about Napster and file sharing...Napster software could be used for legit reasons, so the software wasn't said to be illegal. If software and advice can be used for legit and illegit reasons, I feel we should assume it is legit.

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Kurt

15 years ago

Actually, the mistake is on YOUR PART believing I think this is a democracy.

Here's what I said "While I do agree it's Allen's choice to make"....What does that mean in your world?

I also included my opinion on the subject, just as you did. And I also posted examples seeking clarity.

But thanks for NOT discussing an actual point I made in my post...

I said I agree with Allen

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

You seem to mistakenly think this is a democracy. This is Allen's house and it's his rules. Like them or hate them, we as users have no say in what rules Allen and the mods choose to put in place. Since Allen owns this particular piece of internet real estate he has the right to make and enforce any rules he sees fit. It quite honestly is his way or the highway.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Johnny,

You seem to mistakenly think this is a democracy.

I didn't get that impression at all. And I happen to know that Kurt knows it's not a democracy. He expressed a differing perspective in a rational way, as something to consider. A lot of people have been a lot worse in these threads, and with a lot less earned right to be taken seriously.

I have tools that could be used in black or white hat fashion. I don't judge the makers on anything but the tone in which they advertise them and the quality of the tools. The problem here is the tone. The atmosphere has been poisoned to the point that assuming significant white-hat usage is wildly counter to reality.

That has to change before there's any discussion of intent.

Paul

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Johnny Slater 15 years ago

That was my bad Paul. I had more to that post that somehow didn't get posted and it makes it look like I was speaking directly to Kurt but I actually wasn't. I was using his post as an example but I did have more there. I threw my back out this morning and I'm fighting some killer pain so I wasn't paying enough attention to what I posted.

To Kurt.. I didn't mean to single you out and imply that you personally fell into the range of the comments I was making. I offer my heartfelt appology for my post seeming to pick on you as that was in no way my intention.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Johnny,I didn't get that impression at all. And I happen to know that Kurt knows it's not a democracy.
Paul
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Caliban,

None of what you're suggesting, except turning off bumping, has anything to do with the issue. And we're not going to penalize people running offers that fall within the parameters of the group to get rid of the offers that don't fit.

Paul

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CDarklock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

None of what you're suggesting, except turning off bumping, has anything to do with the issue.

Depends on whether you think the issue is "many WSOs violate rule #7" or "how to improve the WSO forum," really. I agree that the auto-delete of WSOs after time is only semi-related to the issue close at hand, but I did say that when I suggested it.

It's my nature to generalise problems and take a longer view of them. Sort of the opposite issue from people who fix lots of small problems instead of backing up to see the larger one; people often "treat the symptoms but not the disease," and this frequently just makes things worse. Of course, backing up to look at the "big picture" all the time can often lead to thinking very small problems are actually very large ones that need a lot more time and energy to fix.
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Rich,

Thank you. Those are kind words. I don't make the decisions, though. The members do. I just enforce their decisions. If someone risks too much of their income being dependent on the WSO forum, and then breaks the written rules, who chose the outcome?

None of this was a matter of "if." Just "when." As Floyd mentioned in another post, the first rule of black-hat is to assume you're going to get caught at some point.

The best any of us can do beyond that is try to balance things out to do the least harm and the most good. And try to keep the inevitable mistakes from being too harsh.

Johnny,

No sweat. I hope your back is better soon. I know what that pain is like when you're trying to concentrate.

Paul

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R Hagel 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

As Floyd mentioned in another post, the first rule of black-hat is to assume you're going to get caught at some point.

Wait, what? I thought the first rule of BH is that you do not talk about BH?

Cheers,
Becky
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Caliban,

Yep. It's a balancing act, and sometimes a tricky one. One of the advantages of having a long history with the place is that you can see the future of it better, too.

I try to mix the two by thinking in terms of course corrections. You don't so much direct a group like this as eliminate the bad options and let them choose the rest. (As if there was any other real choice...)

The biggest part of this current challenge arose from people who came in from groups that developed other "approaches," and used the open nature of the Warriors to infect the place. They genuinely don't seem to understand the concept of respect for others - people or property.

That's what's being rooted out. Not minor issues with the WSO process.

Paul

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I try to mix the two by thinking in terms of course corrections. You don't so much direct a group like this as eliminate the bad options and let them choose the rest.

Precisely. This isn't unique to "a group like this," either, unless by "like this" you mean a group of people.

As someone who's been very seriously studying that subject for a very long time, I have a certain perspective on it, but that perspective always comes with a huge disclaimer of "these are generalities and your specific group may not fit them."

Kind of like niche marketing, really. The general wisdom of what does and doesn't convert may simply not apply to your target market, and the only way to know for sure is to try it... trouble is, with community standards, it's much harder to experiment. You don't get many chances to get it right.

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Jeremy Kelsall 15 years ago

Why does the conversation always degenerate to a discussion of "how to fix the WSO forum?"...

There is a rule being enforced....

Allen is making bank - check
Sellers are selling products - check
Buyers are buying products - check
Buyers have the ability to comment on what they buy - check
Level playing field - check

Why does everyone want to turn a good thing into a chore?
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Jeremy,
  
  Why does the conversation always degenerate to a discussion of "how to fix the WSO forum?"...
  
  Because it isn't exactly what they want, which means it's borked.
  
  At this moment, people are confusing the process with the content. Muddy thinking.
  
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  Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago
  
  I don't know about everybody else, but I'm watching to see who falls where
  on this whole issue.
  
  It gives one great insight into who you may or may not want to do
  business with from depending on whether you are pro or against black hat
  tactics.
  
  I don't pass judgment. That's not my job. But I do want to know the ethics
  of the people I do business with.
  
  So far, it's been an interesting thread to say the least.
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Steven,
  
  Excellent point.
  
  "When a person gives you their opinion about a thing, you learn nothing about the thing, but a great deal about the person."
  
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  Jeremy Kelsall 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  At this moment, people are confusing the process with the content. Muddy thinking.
  
  Paul
  
  Not just at this moment lol - It's a constant discussion about something that doesn't need to be discussed.
  
  If anyone thinks that either Allen isn't watching what happens here, or that he doesn't have people watching, so that he can make adjustments when HE SEES FIT, they need to have their heads checked.
  
  This is a forum first and foremost, where people can come hang out, talk about their business, ask for help, or give help if they see fit.
  
  Unfortunately, people seem to think that "fixing" something that isn't broken is some sort of personal mission for them.
  
  A rule is being enforced...I don't think that because a new rule is being enforced that it is open season for "FORUM REFORM" , unless BO is somehow a moderator here - then we are all screwed, but I digress...lol
  
  Warrior forum = good
  Discussion = good
  WSO section = Good
  Tactics that break TOS = Bad
  
  mkay'?
  
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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Johnny,I didn't get that impression at all. And I happen to know that Kurt knows it's not a democracy. He expressed a differing perspective in a rational way, as something to consider. A lot of people have been a lot worse in these threads, and with a lot less earned right to be taken seriously.

I have tools that could be used in black or white hat fashion. I don't judge the makers on anything but the tone in which they advertise them and the quality of the tools. The problem here is the tone. The atmosphere has been poisoned to the point that assuming significant white-hat usage is wildly counter to reality.

That has to change before there's any discussion of intent.

Paul

Thanks Paul...

This is why Slater's comments got me riled a bit...Because I am so much in favor of a web master's rights to do what they want to do with their own sites, and have posted so many times on this forum. Talk about a bad "poker read".

And if I disagree with Allen's decisions, I will still fight for his right to make them on his own site. It's his right and obligation to do what he wants with his own proprty. But if he offers me a chance to voice my disagreement, I'll take it, with respect to him. I may post something he hadn't thought of and may agree with...Probably not, but worth a shot.

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Gary Becks

15 years ago

Ok so backlink packets are out, automation software is out, anything using proxies is out, and a few other products might get the boot as well. This much I am clear on.

What about products such as SEO related ebooks that give deatailed instructions on how to implement what some may deem as being "balck hat" or even in the grey area strategies? Are these no longer allowed as well?

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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

Considering that even the term black hat has been banned from the forum before I would think it would be clear that anything black hat isn't welcome here any longer. But then again that's just me.

Originally Posted by Gary Becks

Ok so backlink packets are out, automation software is out, anything using proxies is out, and a few other products might get the boot as well. This much I am clear on.

What about products such as SEO related ebooks that give deatailed instructions on how to implement what some may deem as being "balck hat" or even in the grey area strategies? Are these no longer allowed as well?

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mrdomains 15 years ago

I have purchased my fair share of WSO´s and will continue to do so. Apart from plugins, I mostly buy out of curiosity as I try to evaluate what the current fashion is and if there is any meat on the bones.

I´m a newcomer to WF compared to many, many members. One might think that I would have nothing to compare with - the way it was before vs the way it is now. Maybe so, but I welcome the cleanup because regardless of how it was before, the way it is now is not what it could be.

The WSO section reminds me of the selling rooms in Asheron´s Call, the sub (long time ago), where every player would crowd in to shout their crafted merchandise and loot for sale. There were few rules and slack moderation. Everyone tried to get attention by more and more outrageous headlines until most items were advertised as must-have game-winners. The trinklets that were circulated soon devalued the market to simple feeding on first-timers. It became a playground and the real gems were nowhere to be found by then, having migrated to other venues.

I doubt we will be going back to how it was. Anyway, retro is seldom good. But maybe it will become better than it ever was.

If there be rules, enforce them!
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- sanssecret 15 years ago
  
  I am sooooooo loving this thread, along with the cleanup it's talking about.
  
  I haven't been here that long, so I don't claim to know what it was like in the 'good old days', but I know what I expected it to be when I signed up. And now it sounds like it's going to turn out like that after all.
  
  I really wish we had the thanks button up and running. There are just so many posters here that deserve it.
  
  And Paul petal, I have to say, you handle this whole thing so well. Yeah, maybe you're an old hand at this type of stuff, but I believe a lot of it comes down to character, more than just experience. There's more to be learned in this thread than just WSO rules.
  
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Gary,

Ok so backlink packets are out, automation software is out, anything using proxies is out, and a few other products might get the boot as well. This much I am clear on.

What about products such as SEO related ebooks that give deatailed instructions on how to implement what some may deem as being "balck hat" or even in the grey area strategies? Are these no longer allowed as well?

Not all automation software is out. As far as ebooks and courses, read the WSO rules. That is answered quite clearly in them.

Paul

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Dennis Gaskill

15 years ago

Steven, I'm with you. I've read every post in this thread to get a read on which side of the fence people stand on. There are a good many threads that lend themselves well toward that end. I'm not making moral judgments, what others do is their business, but who I do business with is my business.

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Chris Hunter

15 years ago

Ok, I'm late to the game, so can someone point me to a link containing what the new rules are?

I'm not arguing anything. I just want to know what the specific changes are, that's all.

Once I find that out, I may want to argue then. KIDDING!

P.S. - I suppose that we can thank the guy that was asking if XRumer runs were ok to offer here, huh? LOL!

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teguh123

15 years ago

Does this affect paul and angela's backlink?>

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Imran Naseem Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by teguh123

Does this affect paul and angela's backlink?>

Yes it does, unless there is a special VIP pass from them both granting them special treatment.
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jazbo

15 years ago

Ok, so reading back, there is no reply to my question about signatures and topics etc. I do see that Mike Anthony has said his signature is deleted, so evidently "rule 7" applies not just to the WSO forum as some has said and does now extend to signatures as well.

Could I ask for some clarity on this please Paul. I am not going to reply to anything in the SEO forum until I know if rules 7 applies everywhere.

For example if someone else says "recommend me a linkbuilding automation tool" and I recommend one, am I going to get slapped with a ban??? Is this "rule 7" now a general forum rule?

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by jazbo

Ok, so reading back, there is no reply to my question about signatures and topics etc.

Paul did address the sig question earlier in the thread -- back in post #41 right here.

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halfpoint

15 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

Paul did address the sig question earlier in the thread -- back in post #41 right here.

Becky,

That doesn't address the content of posts and topics and what can be spoken about and what cannot.

A lot of the things talked about in the SEO section break the TOS of sites so Jazbo is looking for clarification on post and thread content rather than signatures.

I was just about to ask the same question, myself.

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Pat Jackson

Becky,

That doesn't address the content of posts and topics and what can be spoken about and what cannot.

A lot of the things talked about in the SEO section break the TOS of sites so Jazbo is looking for clarification on post and thread content rather than signatures.

I was just about to ask the same question, myself.

I didn't say it addressed the posts/topics question -- I just said it addressed the sigs question.

However, this thread addresses the topics question:

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...sites-tos.html

(Note -- while the thread talks about proxies, note that the title of that thread refers to posts that advocate breaking a site's TOS. So, the thread topic appears to cover more than just proxies.)

Cheers,
Becky

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Okay. That last answer wasn't too clear. I was looking at it as though the question was about edge cases, which isn't necessarily a correct reading.

Promoting techniques that violate the TOS of one or more sites is not something we allow when we become aware of it. So yes, those could get deleted. That's the risk you take when you make them.

I'm not going to tell you it will happen every time, as we don't see every post. A lot of drift can happen (and has) because of that, and a lot can get by us. But yeah, they're against the way we want this place run. Have been, for a long time.

Paul
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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Originally Posted by jazbo

Ok, so reading back, there is no reply to my question about signatures and topics etc. I do see that Mike Anthony has said his signature is deleted,

No. Sorry if I worded that wrong (I've corrected that ). I voluntarily removed it to comply. Again its was not deleted. However I believe Signatures down the line could be IF I read Paul right.
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Paul Myers 15 years ago

For example if someone else says "recommend me a linkbuilding automation tool" and I recommend one, am I going to get slapped with a ban???

Discussions tend to drift, and we don't nuke people for that, including the "grey" stuff. Straight black hat stuff like Xrumer is strictly off limits, though. Even then, it would most likely be a warning or just deletion of the post, the first time.

As far as sig files, I tend to leave those alone, but I'm not the only person who does this. If you are worried about what's in your sig, it's probably best to leave it out.

The normal routine with a problem sig file is to blank out the sig.

Paul
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StevenK

15 years ago

Let me see if I understand this correctly. The rule was established several months ago, but it is now starting to get enforced. I presume the "sellers" knew about the rule but just continued to offer the WSO.

If correct, this should not be a surprise or even a shock to some.

Steve

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Steve,

Let me see if I understand this correctly. The rule was established several months ago, but it is now starting to get enforced. I presume the "sellers" knew about the rule but just continued to offer the WSO.

If correct, this should not be a surprise or even a shock to some.

It was posted just about 5 months ago. As in, December 3 of last year. The rules thread title was changed to notify people that there was a modification to the terms. Whether any individual read those or not is anyone's guess. But it was not done sneakily, and it's been mentioned in here several times that enforcement was coming.

I'm sure some people missed it. Some others probably just hoped to make what they could before it was enforced. Still others probably assumed it was a fig leaf. More lines of thought could be out there, too.

General comments...

The issue isn't whether we should or shouldn't enforce it. Very few people are arguing that. The debate is the result of a couple other things. First, the tendency people have to push back when they lose something. The second, usually stated as "It's got to be fair," is based in the thought that, since they had something taken from them, others should feel the pain, too.

The leverage is to shout "It's unfair" or to post nonsense about favoritism being bad. Yes, there are some lines that no-one in the group should be allowed to cross. No question. But not all things are that cut and dried.

Any person who says that everyone should have the same level of privilege has probably never put in the effort necessary to earn special treatment.

Yes, there are people here that I treat better than others. They are not all folks I personally like. They're people who do more for the group. As I said in the first set of rules I wrote for this place, "Them that gives, gets."

Don't like that? Too bad.

A bit of history: The concept of a WSO was the serendipitous brainchild of one Theresa King. Theresa was one of the most helpful people ever to grace this forum, way back in the early days. She helped the other members publicly, privately, and in just about every way she could. One day she made a post offering one of her products at a significant discount, as a "special offer to Warriors."

Some people freaked when I approved it. Some tried to follow suit, thinking it meant that ads were okay. (Remember - there was only one section of the forum at the time.) Others calmly asked what was going on. Most just went about their business, figuring we had some clue what we were doing.

I quoted the line, "Them that gives, gets." When people tried pinning it down to specific criteria, I told them, "It's a matter of judgement. Mine." I was the only one moderating at the time, so that was simple truth, and settled the legalistic quibbling. The only hard rule was that the discount had to be 25% or more lower than what you were selling it for elsewhere for digital products, and 10% or more off physical products.

The same attitude that Theresa brought to it - make some money while helping the group - is what drove the WSO section when Allen created it. Giving special treatment to your friends and associates. Building each other up.

That's the thing the old-timers are talking about when they mention how it used to be. Not how much more time your offer stayed on page one, or tricks to get more views and make the thread look hotter than it really was. It was that attitude. Not every offer had it, but enough did that it carried on in that section for years.

Now it has all the grace and charm of a pirannha tank. And that's fine, as long as it stays within certain bounds. Bounds like not lying about offers, and not teaching people to be destructive for fun and/or profit.

As far as the literalist nit-picking, I'm going to let you in on an open secret: Terms of service agreements are written with bad actors in mind. There are things you can do that comply 100% with the spirit of a site and which benefit the site and its members which are technically not allowed under the terms.

I don't quarrel with folks about those. If the site owners don't mind, I don't.

The backlink stuff is very, very rarely a matter like that. It's almost always about getting links at someone else's expense. That's destructive, and that's why the hard line on it.

Paul

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Dennis Gaskill 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Any person who says that everyone should have the same level of privilege has probably never put in the effort necessary to earn special treatment.

I've never really thought of it in those terms before, but that line should be a light-bulb moment for those that give little and complain a lot. I certainly have customers I'd go out of my way to help, and others I wouldn't. I think it's human nature to want to help and/or give the benefit of the doubt to those who are more helpful and more giving than the average Joe.
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CDarklock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Any person who says that everyone should have the same level of privilege has probably never put in the effort necessary to earn special treatment.

I really, really like this. I'm totally jacking it so I can quote you all over the place.
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- Dennis Gaskill 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  I really, really like this. I'm totally jacking it so I can quote you all over the place.
  
  Ha ha - I've already added it to my quotation file as well.
  
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Robert Puddy 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Any person who says that everyone should have the same level of privilege has probably never put in the effort necessary to earn special treatment.

I wish every forum moderator took this view, a community benefits greatly from those who earn the right to be treated differently than the masses.

Some people (like theresa was) are the heart of a community and should gain priveldge within that community

Robert
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TrafficMystic

15 years ago

Paul, Do you have a list of the software apps that are barred?

My current link building software is semi automated and works off the sites that users import /add in themselves. It doesnt auto capture but assists them in filling in details like roboform but it a lot more advanced..

It does allow a proxy to be set but this is needed if your on a network or intranet based network.

Whats you views on this?

regards

Steve

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jaiganeshv

15 years ago

Lots of things happening in the WF lately, few confusions as well

for the past 3 days i could not perform search operations properly and seems this isue persisted with everyone out here.

Now i wonder about the new rules change...

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jaxstar

15 years ago

As a very noob in the IM field, I'm glad to see that things will be cleaned up. I'm looking to establish my site for long-term success and not just one or two months. When I first started, I did read through black hat forums but quickly realized that those things might work short term but not long term at all. I then switched to this forum hoping that what I learned on here would build for long term success. So I'm glad to see the topics discussed here will be more on the up and up.

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jatchue Banned 15 years ago

Sounds like the Guru's that run this place are getting heads the size of the dopes over at Google.

When you think about it any backlink you create yourself pointing back at a website you own is a false backlink and probably breaks Goolge's TOS.

You mean to tell me that you guys never have broken any TOS with any of the marketing you've done online?

Bull****.

The only reason I visit here is for backlink advice, the rest of it you can learn anywhere.

Don't worry about banning me, I won't be back. I hate it when pompous assholes decide they need to fix things that are wrong that do not concern them.

Thank God for the backlinks forum.
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- Jill Carpenter 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by jatchue
  
  Sounds like the Guru's that run this place are getting heads the size of the dopes over at Google.
  
  Bubye. Adios.
  
  Why am I suddenly humming that Lawrence Welk song in my head - you know, the one they played at the end of the show?
  
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  grayambition 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by avenuegirl
  
  Bubye. Adios.
  Why am I suddenly humming that Lawrence Welk song in my head - you know, the one they played at the end of the show?
  
  LOL. Probably about the same time & for the same reason I started humming "Happy Trails to You"
  
  YouTube - Roy Rogers & Dale Evans - Happy Trails...
  
  I also started thinking (not for the first time) that we need a NO THANKS button.
  
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  I hate it when pompous assholes decide they need to fix things that are wrong that do not concern them.
  
  If you're going to use my title, use the full, official version. As in, "That's Mr Pompous Asshole, sir" to you.
  
  Now then... This does concern us. It's not about telling anyone what to do on any other site. Just what we'll allow here. If you don't like that, you've picked the right option: Go elsewhere. And feel free to take those who think like you along for the ride.
  
  It also has the benefit of making people think before they do destructive things that cost other people money and ruin resources that benefit folks who need them.
  
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seobro

15 years ago

I have a forum with over 30,000 members and for some reason, people that sell {wow gold, see alice, rorex reprica} feel the need to spam me. OK my guess is that there were some complaints and you are catching fire now. As long as forum posts, blog comments, etc. are on topic, it should be OK - what do you say?

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Steve,

I'd need more info before I could answer the question. Understand, though, that I'm not saying all tools in a certain class are bad. It's far more important to know how they're used. The challenge with some is that they're designed specifically to do massive amounts of damage.

I can't put together a list, because I don't know all the software in the affected categories.

seobro,

OK my guess is that there were some complaints and you are catching fire now.

Nope. It just needs doing.

As long as forum posts, blog comments, etc. are on topic, it should be OK - what do you say?

That's a minimum standard, not the desirable goal. "On topic" can cover a multitude of graces and sins. The goal is for comments to contribute to the overall conversation in a useful way.

Paul
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Cash37

15 years ago

I dont know how to react to this since I do use warrior linking services often...

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Michele Buch

15 years ago

Paul,
It would be easy to be lazy and let things slide. Thank you for your diligence in enforcing the high standards of the WF and for all the time and love you put into it.

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4morereferrals 15 years ago

Paul,

Somebody ... literally 2-3 minutes prior to me going into my sig to delete the reference to backlink products - beat me to it yesterday. Saved me a step thx.

I dont dare bump any of my wso's - even though I have not formally rec'd an email or PM advising not to. Not willing to play with fire as others appear to be.

Yet I see 2 people on this page with reference to backlinks products / services in their sigs ... AND I still see some of the more prolific backlink / TOS violating WSO products using ping . fm etc ... being bumped [ I have NO Doubt ... that warrior is aware of the new enforcement policy ] irk-some. And, apparently the way to circumvent the rules is to bundle the backlinking with other items :rolleyes:

I do understand this is a process and will take time to get to all the "violators". I dont mind the rule, just hope its application gets distributed equally - with no sacred cows.
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Vis

15 years ago

Thanks goodness... I guess I don't need my broom when I go into the WSO section... Though I am a newcomer here and never knew what the old WF was like, I do recognize the huge need of some control here in the forum - after all, I have been smelling that snarky odor I got from those old ebay digital goods...

I just want to express - Kudos for the big clean up! I cannot wait to see the old WF as others are claiming...

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Kella Bella

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Vis

Thanks goodness... I guess I don't need my broom when I go into the WSO section... Though I am a newcomer here and never knew what the old WF was like, I do recognize the huge need of some control here in the forum - after all, I have been smelling that snarky odor I got from those old ebay digital goods...

I just want to express - Kudos for the big clean up! I cannot wait to see the old WF as others are claiming...

Totally agrees with this statement

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Jgregory

15 years ago

Just my own Two Cents on Rule #7

There's sertainly no need for name calling or wild guessing about the reasons.

The good folks who own WF must do do this anyway. They have a successful business here and this is self-protection. They have a lot at stake personally.

The "internet" is growing up due the huge amount of eCommerce in last 5 years. Trillions of dollars are changing hands over the internet.

Lawyer 101 in Law School
Follow the Money

The owners are just protecting themselves from "sideways lawsuits" for any violation of a website's TOS, such as a TOS that says "no automated posting" or "do not use Proxies to access our data".

But if this is just information on somebody's forum whats the big deal?
Can a lawyer sue the "somebody" for running a forum or website where this is just information?

Yep. Sure can. And they do. And they win

And often the deep pocket theory wins the case. Those with the most money for lawyers win. Even if they don't, the "winners" have spent 100's of thousands on defense lawyers.

My other Two Cents

The net effect of #7 might be a little bit cleaner WSO area and help you find the nuggets in there that can actually help you.

all the best,
Jan

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matrix1989

15 years ago

well, i just got an email from a prominent backlinker saying they can no longer sell their backlink packets on here. I'm outraged to say the least. This is where i come to find backlink packets and I'm just about ready to move to DP if backlink packets are too be banished...

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

I'm just about ready to move to DP if backlink packets are too be banished...

A perfectly reasonable choice of response. Thanks for visiting.

Bye.

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GeorgR.

15 years ago

Quote:
I'm just about ready to move to DP if backlink packets are too be banished...
A perfectly reasonable choice of response. Thanks for visiting.

Bye.

There are indeed other forums where "those" services are not banned [yet], although DP also has many similar and related services on their blacklist, eg. blog commenting, bookmarking stumbling and so forth has been banned there for some time already.

You wont "lose" anything by visiting "those" forums.

Regardless whether we agree with all changes and enforcements, there NEEDED something to be done with the WSO section.

The WSO section actually became LESS attractive due the fact that some could/can find the same link building services here as on DP or w****e forum. So what's the point of the WSO forum?

As so nicely stated, read about how the WSO section started initially and what its ORIGINAL purpose was. "Providing [a special deal or offer] to the forum community"

Finding the same 500 [link] services as i can do on OTHER places hardly is good for this forum....IT SHOULD BE DIFFERENT.

Otherwise it wouldn't be the warrior forum but simply a clone of existing webmaster forums, same offers, same services, same low quality, same CPA and ewhoring nonsense.

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dyadvisor 15 years ago

Here is Google's viewpoint according to Matt Cutts:

"- Use the unauthenticated spam report form and make sure to include the word “paidlink” (all one word) in the text area of the spam report. As far as the details, it can be pretty short. Something like “Example.com is selling links; here’s a page on example.com that demonstrates that” or “www.mattcutts.com is buying links. You can see the paid links on www.example.com/path/page.html” is all you need to mention. That will be enough for Google to start testing out some new techniques we’ve got — thanks!"

I am certainly not going to tattle. But now you can see Google's reaction.
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Zabrina

15 years ago

Thank goodness. I'm so glad this is happening.

I've only been around for a year or so (I know my join date is "off", long story), but even in that time, I've seen the quality of the WSO forum slide down. I've heard enough from longtime Warriors to understand what it was like "before" -- and that's exactly the atmosphere I was hoping to find here, that I have found to some extent but not as much as I'd like to have found.

I've stopped going in the WSO forum because it's so much work to sift out the jewels from the mountains of junk. I think it sunk in fully when I found a "list of backlinks" in the War Room not long ago and visited one or two of the sites. They were filled with garbage that had been posted since the War Room thread had been posted, clearly Warriors spamming what was otherwise an interesting site. I got the heck outta Dodge, and it left a bad taste in my mouth for all BH products and methods.

IMHO, the folks who sell backlink services need to start thinking about the Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you wouldn't want hundreds of people leaving you hours of deletion/cleanup work in just minutes or seconds, why make a profit from all that heartache, frustration and annoyance of other webmasters?

Again, I'm so glad the atmosphere in the forum will be changing. Can't wait to see the shiny, clean WSO forum, Classifieds, Warriors for Hire and signatures.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

I do understand this is a process and will take time to get to all the "violators". I dont mind the rule, just hope its application gets distributed equally - with no sacred cows.

I have already addressed this point in response to one of your posts, no? Continuing to bring it up suggests things that do not put you in a good light with me. Given that you are effectively an anonymous profile, that may not be a useful course to take.

I didn't mess with your sig file. If someone else did, you'll have to take that up with them.

As far as people pushing the line... They'll find out how wise that is when I catch them. Adding disallowed products as bonuses or bundles isn't going to go over well, especially if they've already been warned. I understand people resenting the change and commenting on it. Trying to be sneaky or play forum lawyer with me, on the other hand, is a ticket on the express bus out of here.

Paul

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jsherloc

15 years ago

Well, I figured I would jut throw this out there, because I am generally a bit confused by the long-term intentions here. Well, I understand the intentions, but more concerned with "how is this gonna really work"?

BTW, WF is a godsend to any Internet marketer, regardless of what has transpired recently. I will always be a Warrior!

BUT, I just don't see how you expect to be the #1 Internet marketing forum without discussing or giving access to strategies/lists/tools that give you backlinks (the kind and quantity that actually make you rank and make you money - that's why we're all here right?).

I'm sorry, but unless you have a LARGE budget, or a LARGE amount of time, a LARGE list, or ALL OF THE ABOVE, most people will not make a livable income online with 100% "PURE WHITEHAT" marketing. MOST people will not make a dime WITH "BlueFart" stuff and "whitehat" for that matter. But we all know that...

I mean, it's hilarious that even Matt Cutts and the Google team always stress the whitehat way, but that's not how you succeed in the industry RIGHT NOW. As in today...tomorrow...probably for at least another year?

While you are seeking out link partners and writing guest posts for a return on your time, joe shmoe is creating massive web 2.0 linkwheels and profile links to dominate page 1.

Its great to be "ethical", but its not great to be broke.

Sure, white-hat squeeky-clean methods WORK....no doubt about it. I PREFER whitehat, its way less tedious. But they are not working as well as the guy who is all over the front page using tools like scrapebox, senuke, etc. You will not make much money without intentionally/unintentionally breaking some type of TOS along the way, as has been mentioned before.

The place needed cleared cleaned and fumigated, no doubt about it...just don't know how the whole "ignore the stuff that actually works" thing is going to work out.

It just sucks that Google doesn't actually practice what they preach. Would you tell someone interested in IM to ignore forum profile backlinks RIGHT NOW? That's what Im confused about.

Good luck cleaning everything up Paul!

Just my thoughts.

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Robert Puddy

15 years ago

Originally Posted by jsherloc

Its great to be "ethical", but its not great to be broke.

Sure, white-hat squeeky-clean methods WORK....no doubt about it. I PREFER whitehat, its way less tedious. But they are not working as well as the guy who is all over the front page using tools like scrapebox, senuke, etc. You will not make much money without intentionally/unintentionally breaking some type of TOS along the way, as has been mentioned before.

I make money all day long with out ever worrying about backlinks or even if i'm in the search engines at all. This is a crock of &^*(

Its disgusting to suggest that the only way to make money is by crapping in other peoples doorway.

Robert

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jsherloc

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

I make money all day long with out ever worrying about backlinks or even if i'm in the search engines at all. This is a crock of &^*(

Its disgusting to suggest that the only way to make money is by crapping in other peoples doorway.

Robert

So, because you are the outlier here, the exception to the rule etc, etc, I am completely full of crap? I don't understand your logic. I'm sorry Robert, but it would be painful for me to hear that you have never broken a single TOS in your days of IM. That's all Im suggesting here. Nope, there will be no poop in other people's doorway...unless I light it on fire first! :rolleyes: J/K

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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

As hard as it is for some people to believe.. there are some of us who actually do read and abide by sites Terms Of Service. Just because a large percentage of people couldn't care less does not mean that everyone does it.

Robert is actually right when he says some people don't need to worry about backlinks or being in search engines. I made over $50K with my last product and I didn't spend a single second trying to build backlinks, or doing any SEO to raise my Google listing position other than the basic meta tag stuff that everyone should be doing.

You do not have to spam the heck out of other peoples sites, you do not have to break the TOS of other peoples sites, and you do not have to spam the heck out of anyone to make money online.

If some of these guys spent half as much time building a real business that they spend on spamming and relying on questionable "tactics" to get eyes on their sales message then they would be making a true income and would realize just how much time and money they are really wasting.

Originally Posted by jsherloc

So, because you are the outlier here, the exception to the rule etc, etc, I am completely full of crap? I don't understand your logic. I'm sorry Robert, but it would be painful for me to hear that you have never broken a single TOS in your days of IM. That's all Im suggesting here. Nope, there will be no poop in other people's doorway...unless I light it on fire first! :rolleyes: J/K

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Johnny,

The majority of people making the point you're answering are not going to listen. They're already convinced, and the confirmation bias is in play.

Consider whether there's any useful purpose to be served by debating the point.

Paul
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Tyson Faulkner

15 years ago

I think the whole idea of building backlinks and automation and all that is very tempting because it makes it sound like you can make money without the hard work of creating content that's valuable and building relationships with others on the net to build up a business.

I fell into this line of thinking too because I didn't want to communicate with anyone and it sounded easy. Thankfully it didn't work that great so I didn't spam the net with too many useless pages before I found out that it's no way to build a business.

Personally I'm really thankful to see this stuff go because I never felt comfortable creating accounts for a backlink, but everyone else was doing it and said it worked. I think it's a huge roadblock for newer marketers that want to build a business, but get stuck in the mindset that they can make it faster and easier if they just spam "a little bit"

Anyway, I love the fact that the Warrior forum is striving to become a place of excellence where real business can be done, rather than a place to come and hawk stuff that is questionable.

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4morereferrals

15 years ago

I'm so glad steps have been taken to eliminate WSO products which advocate "scraping" content from other people's sites without their permission ie; auto blogging, etc...It's so annoying that people think just cause you have an RSS feed that somewhow they can just put that content on their sites and claim it as their own

Perhaps I missed that being stated as a targeted class of tool to be outlawed, but at the rate the software developers that use such items are bumping their wso's? who knows?

I think the whole idea of building backlinks and automation and all that is very tempting because it makes it sound like you can make money without the hard work of creating content that's valuable and building relationships with others on the net to build up a business.

If you'd only been around the WF for about a yr or so - not sure how ya'd know any differently that backlinks and packets and automation were NOT the only way to go.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by 4morereferrals

Perhaps I missed that being stated as a targeted class of tool to be outlawed, but at the rate the software developers that use such items are bumping their wso's? who knows?

I've got to look at those more to understand what I'm doing before I screw with people's incomes. I take copyright infringement very seriously, but it's not as overtly destructive as spamming people's sites.

Like I said... It's a process.

Paul

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LIndaB

15 years ago

I can't see how the publishing of RSS feeds would be considered black hat. The whole purpose of RSS is syndication of content. Amazon, for instance, encourages their affiliates to publish their content because it brings them more sales. I could care less if someone publishes my feed because it links back to my site. Where it could be black hat, in my opinion, is when the feed is taken and the links back to the original source are removed.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Linda,

Where it could be black hat, in my opinion, is when the feed is taken and the links back to the original source are removed.

That's the biggest thing I need to look at. There are some other potential issues, but that's the one people are telling me is happening.

Paul
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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

RSS was designed as a way for "site owners' to syndicate their content to those who would be interested in it. Although the technology is there to scrape that content and place it on your site that doesn't make it right.

Stealing someone else's content and making it look like its your own is wrong, regardless of the methods used in the process. It's not about just taking the raw feed and placing on your site with proper credit being given, but more about using scrapers to pull the content to populate your own site with someone else's hard work without giving any indication that you didn't personally write the content and have no right to place it on your site in the first place.

Originally Posted by LIndaB

I can't see how the publishing of RSS feeds would be considered black hat. The whole purpose of RSS is syndication of content. Amazon, for instance, encourages their affiliates to publish their content because it brings them more sales. I could care less if someone publishes my feed because it links back to my site. Where it could be black hat, in my opinion, is when the feed is taken and the links back to the original source are removed.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Johnny,

That's sort of the same thing she was saying.

Paul
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- Johnny Slater 15 years ago
  
  I know Paul. However, it never hurts to state something in a more clear manner while agreeing with it.
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Johnny,
  
  That's sort of the same thing she was saying.
  
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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I take copyright infringement very seriously, but it's not as overtly destructive as spamming people's sites.

White hat link building depends heavily on having unique content. If someone steals my content then it is every bit as destructive and frankly I stand to suffer far more overt harm than just links. Thats why its illegal.
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ExRat 15 years ago

Hi Jsherloc,

BUT, I just don't see how you expect to be the #1 Internet marketing forum without discussing or giving access to strategies/lists/tools that give you backlinks

It's just my opinion, but if you want to be number one at anything, it's advisable to avoid following the herd, to think outside of the box, to lead the way and to observe and react positively to trends.

There are two distinctly opposing ways in which to promote a website (RE backlinks) - one of which is to get them yourself, the other is to take actions which encourage others to do it for you.

You will not make money without intentionally/unintentionally breaking some type of TOS, as has been mentioned before.

This is obviously incorrect. If you can't see that, that's your problem.

While you are guest blogging and waiting for a return on your time, joe shmoe is creating massive web 2.0 linkwheels and profile links to dominate page 1.

Again - if you see the alternatives as being accurately represented by either 'linkwheels/profile links' or 'guest blogging' then it's you that has the perception issue.

Paul,

There are a host of interesting studies inadvertently arising from the actions you are taking here. Thanks

For example - seeing how the same sort of people who make comments in a related thread about how Google 'wants us to snitch on our fellow marketers', don't need much prompting to do precisely that once their nose has been put out of joint. And along with that, they twist the facts when applying blame for the problems, using their selective memory, while calling others hypocrites. Priceless.

This is where i come to find backlink packets and I'm just about ready to move to DP if backlink packets are too be banished...

It's pleasing to see such promptly provided absolute confirmation that you're doing the right thing, Paul.
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

BUT, I just don't see how you expect to be the #1 Internet marketing forum without discussing or giving access to strategies/lists/tools that give you backlinks (the kind and quantity that actually make you rank and make you money - that's why we're all here right?).

They can be smarter, maybe?

You've bought into the BH idea that doing things without being destructive, and having principles in your marketing, is a losing strategy. The BHers don't even believe that themselves, but they'll tell the lie in order to justify their behavior and sell their vandalware. Most of them don't have the intellectual honesty to admit that they're making money by screwing lots of other people out of lots more money.

The ones who admit it and keep doing these things need to be dealt with in other ways.

There are ways to build a successful business fairly quickly. If you don't have the resources, temperament or creativity to find and implement them, then you'll have to stick with the choice: Be a leech, do without, or take longer to get there.

Black-hat thinking is based on the mindset of entitlement. Don't expect any sympathy from me for that.

Paul

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jsherloc

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

They can be smarter, maybe?

You've bought into the BH idea that doing things without being destructive, and having principles in your marketing, is a losing strategy. The BHers don't even believe that themselves, but they'll tell the lie in order to justify their behavior and sell their vandalware. Most of them don't have the intellectual honesty to admit that they're making money by screwing lots of other people out of lots more money.

The ones who admit it and keep doing these things need to be dealt with in other ways.

There are ways to build a successful business fairly quickly. If you don't have the resources, temperament or creativity to find and implement them, then you'll have to stick with the choice: Be a leech, do without, or take longer to get there.

Black-hat thinking is based on the mindset of entitlement. Don't expect any sympathy from me for that.

Paul

Paul,

I'm not sure if there was another issue at hand, or if I was being "accusitive" in any way, because that is certainly not my intent here.

This being a forum that I paid to be a member of and gain new knowledge from everyday, I just figured I could openly discuss my thoughts on the matter amongst the community like a respectful adult. So I was actually taking a leap forward and trying to get a better understanding of things in this thread where we are openly discussing the matter at hand. If you don't want to discuss it anymore, I'd understand, along with other warriors. No judgement needs to be passed.

I just don't appreciate you implying that I have a certain way of "thinking" or I have a sense of "entitlement" because I am stating what currently works in Internet marketing right now. And I was using tools like senuke as the extreme side of things, but where do you draw the line? I believe MOST im'ers are using SOME type of automation, greyhat, various tos-breakers in their linkbuilding. What about multiple accounts at certain places? stuff like that. This is whats happening right now in the industry right now.

I just don't see how anyone can expect a new warrior to succeed in organic seo without building the type of backlinks being banned from sharing/discussion here (not talking about extreme blackhat garbage xrumer etc). That's it.

-Jim

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Jim,

I said nothing about how you think, other than that you've bought into one part of the BH propaganda. You demonstrated that with your restatement that you need BH tactics to do well in organic SEO, with the implication that this is somehow necessary for success online.

The rest of my comments were general in nature.

This being a forum that I paid to be a member of and gain new knowledge from everyday, I just figured I could openly discuss my thoughts on the matter amongst the community like a respectful adult.

In what way did I suggest otherwise?

Paul

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Underground SEO

15 years ago

so does this mean that we can still offer link building services in the warriors for hire section, I assume so as no mention has been made?

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

so does this mean that we can still offer link building services in the warriors for hire section, I assume so as no mention has been made?

You might get away with it until I get the crap in the WSO section down to a dull roar. Don't count on that taking long, though. I'm just about ready to start banning people and/or deleting offers.

You'd find your time better spent using your "SEO" skills to develop your own traffic sources. This one is going to dry up for a lot of folks, real soon.

Paul
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Roger,
  
  There are a host of interesting studies inadvertently arising from the actions you are taking here.
  
  Yep. And a lot of people are seeing other perspectives they may not have previously considered. Those are the main reasons I didn't just make a statement and lock the conversations.
  
  It's going to be very difficult for anyone to claim they knew nothing about this without acknowledging that they never come into the main forum section AND do not read the rules in the WSO section.
  
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jsherloc

15 years ago

Paul,

No problems, I wish I could buy you a beer.

I don't think you need "bh tactics" at all to succeed, but a lot of it works, and works well. That is the nature of the beast right now. I just think, who are we to pass judgement on someone that builds 30 forum profile backlinks instead of writing 30 blog posts over the course of month, in order to cash a check at the end of the month. Its hard to ignore what truly works and is making the majority of warriors their money online, in the #1 internet marketing forum online.

I'll shut up now lol. Seriously though, I love THIS place, and that is why Im posting concern within this discussion.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Jim,

I just think, who are we to pass judgement on someone that builds 30 forum profile backlinks instead of writing 30 blog posts over the course of month, in order to cash a check at the end of the month.

I think we are, collectively, owners and operators of the blogs, forums, and other interactive sites and services that are being damaged by this stuff. I think we are, collectively, quite within our rights to do whatever is necessary to blast the people harming our businesses in any legal way we can.

Let me paraphrase your question: Who are we to judge email spammers, forum spammers, blog spammers, or anyone else for that matter, who are in it for a buck?

I'm not suggesting anything about you here. Just offering the perspective of someone who has had to shut down multiple useful resources over the years because of these ... "people." And someone who spends significant time cleaning up their crap from various places.

Like, for example, this one.

Paul

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jsherloc

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Jim,I think we are, collectively, owners and operators of the blogs, forums, and other interactive sites and services that are being damaged by this stuff. I think we are, collectively, quite within our rights to do whatever is necessary to blast the people harming our businesses in any legal way we can.

Let me paraphrase your question: Who are we to judge email spammers, forum spammers, blog spammers, or anyone else for that matter, who are in it for a buck?

I'm not suggesting anything about you here. Just offering the perspective of someone who has had to shut down multiple useful resources over the years because of these ... "people." And someone who spends significant time cleaning up their crap from various places.

Like, for example, this one.

Paul

Paul, once again, I wish I could buy you a beer. I understand your intentions. I understand your rights. But really, what do you expect? Scratch that, I know what you EXPECT...a sensible bunch of adults collaborating and growing their businesses together. But what do you think is gonna happen when this stuff WORKS. No you absolutely do not need it at all, but it works.

Internet marketing IS about making money in some form or another, is it not? Whether it be a quick buck, or a longterm one. That is all Im suggesting. My point is there will always be evildoers out there, but there's a LOT more of us that use a little bit of commonsense/ethics in our own businesses. But we also value our time and might use a semi-automated submission tool once a week or buy a list of backlinks etc to help grow our businesses and make a living.

Your (webmasters, forum owners, etc) gripe should be with the big G...don't hate the players, hate the game.

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Jim,

You keep using incorrect assumptions and fuzzy logic. I can point out the incorrect assumptions if you want?

Here is some of the fuzzy logic -

But what do you think is gonna happen when this stuff WORKS. No you absolutely do not need it at all, but it works.

Analogy - Drug dealing 'works'. So people will do it. Is the fact that it 'works' any reason for a premises owner to consider turning a blind eye to it occurring on his premises? Is the defence of 'it works' any use when standing accused of the crime?

Your (webmasters, forum owners, etc) gripe should be with the big G...don't hate the players, hate the game.

Analogy - a government decides that it has been paying too much social security benefit therefore it reduces the amount of benefits it pays. The people receiving the benefit have become accustomed to this level of benefit, and decide that in response to the reduction they will 'have to' turn to crime.

They break into your house and steal your posessions.

Do you let the 'players' off scot-free and go after the 'game'?

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jsherloc

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Jim,

You keep using incorrect assumptions and fuzzy logic. I can point out the incorrect assumptions if you want?

Here is some of the fuzzy logic -

Analogy - Drug dealing 'works'. So people will do it. Is the fact that it 'works' any reason for a premises owner to consider turning a blind eye to it occurring on his premises? Is the defence of 'it works' any use when standing accused of the crime?

Analogy - a government decides that it has been paying too much social security benefit therefore it reduces the amount of benefits it pays. The people receiving the benefit have become accustomed to this level of benefit, and decide that in response to the reduction they will 'have to' turn to crime.

They break into your house and steal your posessions.

Do you let the 'players' off scot-free and go after the 'game'?

Good analogies, but you are missing the point where I totally agree with Pauls/Allens/etc rights to do what he is doing. Obviously I think we are all past that point. Also, obviously I believe that all webmasters and forum owners have the right to crack down on this stuff and very well should be. SPAM of any type is terrible, and most warriors like me and you are inherently webmasters, so most understand its a double-edged sword in a lot of ways.

BUT...Can we just agree that it is unfortunate the stuff works so well? You don't need to believe that it is by any means THE RIGHT THING TO DO in order to accept the fact that it works for the majority of warriors out there. And I am not referring to extreme BlueFart automation, but kw tools that use proxies,, forum profile links, and semi-automated submission tools/things of that nature more specifically.

Its also hard to become the "ethics police" of the interwebs, specifically the SEO game. Thats Google's job. You all have enough on your plate as is, and I'll end it at that.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Jim,

Its also hard to become the "ethics police" of the interwebs.

This is a whole other point, and one that comes up fairly often.

We are not trying to be the "ethics police" of anything. We know better. Hell, we're not even joining the neighborhood watch. We're cleaning up our own space. Period. If we're lucky, we might encourage a few other people to do the same, but we're doing it whether that happens or not. We're certainly not on any campaign to interfere with any other forum.

Paul
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Jim,

What do I expect? Nothing.

I have no illusions that any of this will change what's going on right now. There are lots of people who'll take that first step over the line and ignore the rights of others for their own benefit. They'll do it by blaming the game, and not accepting responsibility for their own part in it.

That's not a matter of my personal expectations. It's just reality.

Lots of things "work" that shouldn't be done. "It works" is not a defense. Saying that is somewhat akin to the apocryphal story of Willie Sutton's response when asked why he robbed banks. "Because that's where the money is."

Blaming Google for trying to give people relevant results when they search is... well, a proper description wouldn't be polite. At all. There was no "game" until people started trying to "game" the system. Google is just acting in defense of their business, against people who are trying to get things they don't deserve by misusing the property of others in ways that shouldn't be permitted.

Paul

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Mountainbird

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Lots of things "work" that shouldn't be done. "It works" is not a defense. Saying that is somewhat akin to the apocryphal story of Willie Sutton's response when asked why he robbed banks. "Because that's where the money is."

Nowadays:

...of National and International Banks response when asked why they robbed their clients. "Because that's where the money is."

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Simon,

what's the element in SENUKE that puts it under the axe as opposed to another article submitter, is it purely the CAPTUA solving element?

Lessee... Proxy support, automated account creation, and video hijacking, for starters. There's probably more, but that's enough.

Paul
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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by jsherloc

Paul, once again, I wish I could buy you a beer.

You can, by clicking here. And right about now he probably needs one or two or ten.

Cheers,
Becky

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sanssecret

15 years ago

Becky

Thanks for pointing this out.

Originally Posted by R Hagel

You can, by clicking here. And right about now he probably needs one or two or ten.

Cheers,
Becky

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theimdude

15 years ago

I see somebody have just starting selling software to collect do follow backlinks on blogs in WSO section.

He also call it the white hat method of getting backlinks. This seems to be no different to scaper software collecting methods of spamming blogs.

To me if somebody used software to check out my blogs if they do follow for comments I don't see the difference in any other method and should still be classified as a product that promote comment spamming

One person comment that as they can't buy backlink packages anymore this will work perfectly.

Is this allowed?

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

The software does a basic Google search and saves the results. I warned him to change the ad copy. That's a fine distinction, but it can be used in legitimate ways, and doesn't do the posting.

I'll be watching it.

Edit: He's been told not to bump or repost it. I told him to get rid of the copy that suggested selling the lists, and it was still in there. I don't think people realize yet how little I want to screw around with this stuff. I have better things to do than chase mice and other rodents around the forum.

Paul

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Underground SEO

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

The software does a basic Google search and saves the results. I warned him to change the ad copy. That's a fine distinction, but it can be used in legitimate ways, and doesn't do the posting.

I'll be watching it.

Edit: He's been told not to bump or repost it. I told him to get rid of the copy that suggested selling the lists, and it was still in there. I don't think people realize yet how little I want to screw around with this stuff. I have better things to do than chase mice and other rodents around the forum.

Paul

I don't personally agree with calling someone who has paid $37 to join this place a "rodent" to be honest when in all fairness he has posted a WSO like so many others have offering similar services in the past. Fair enough you're deciding to enforce rules now which many people might not know about/will probably have forgotten about since they have gotten away with it for so long in the past. I resent the whole witchhunt thats going on though.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by fryerben

I don't personally agree with calling someone who has paid $37 to join this place a "rodent" to be honest when in all fairness he has posted a WSO like so many others have offering similar services in the past.

I don't appreciate having someone tell me something was removed, and then find it in a new place in the sales copy. The "rodent" in this case is the offending copy.

Hey... I thought you left here because you found the censorship offensive? Didn't I read that somewhere recently?

Paul

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Underground SEO

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I don't appreciate having someone tell me something was removed, and then find it in a new place in the sales copy. The "rodent" in this case is the offending copy.

Hey... I thought you left here because you found the censorship offensive? Didn't I read that somewhere recently?

Paul

I may have said that, but on reflection decided to stay as this place is quite useful. I didn't say however that I found the censorship "offensive."

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by fryerben

I may have said that, but on reflection decided to stay as this place is quite useful.

Yeah. And we'll treat you better. There really are neighborhoods that people should stay away from until they have more Clue.

I didn't say however that I found the censorship "offensive."

That was the gist of it, I think. Maybe not that exact phrasing, but the sentiment is the same.

Paul

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Underground SEO

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Yeah. And we'll treat you better. There really are neighborhoods that people should stay away from until they have more Clue.That was the gist of it, I think. Maybe not that exact phrasing, but the sentiment is the same.

Paul

Actualy Paul, I do apologise, thanks for keeping this place mature and free of spam.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by fryerben

Actualy Paul, I do apologise, thanks for keeping this place mature and free of spam.

Sarcasm will get you everywhere.

Paul

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Underground SEO

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Sarcasm will get you everywhere.

Paul

I honestly wasn't actualy being sarcastic, just a moment of realisation of how good this place actualy is.

Ben.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by fryerben

I honestly wasn't actualy being sarcastic, just a moment of realisation of how good this place actualy is.

Yeah. Exposure to some of the other forums out there can do that to you.

I still don't buy the "not sarcastic" thing. When you lead with words like "witchhunt," and follow up with "censorship," it makes for a pretty clear impression.

Paul

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Underground SEO

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Yeah. Exposure to some of the other forums out there can do that to you.

I still don't buy the "not sarcastic" thing. When you lead with words like "witchhunt," and follow up with "censorship," it makes for a pretty clear impression.

Paul

well as I said I meant it with sincerity and no sarcasm.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by fryerben

well as I said I meant it with sincerity and no sarcasm.

I can't read your mind, so there's no direct rebuttal possible. However, you might want to take this as a lesson in preparing the ground for future comments. People tend to respond to what you actually say, and certain words are a fast track to the ignore list.

By the way... Censorship is part of the function of moderating a forum. Without that function, the "unlimited freedom of speech" that so many would like to think they advocate would quickly destroy any focused discussion medium.

Any benefit you get from any such forum is the result of applied censorship.

Paul

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

This discussion will NOT be used to reference other forums in negative ways. Not by name or other easy to follow suggestion. Don't even try it.

Paul

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Titans

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

This discussion will NOT be used to reference other forums in negative ways. Not by name or other easy to follow suggestion. Don't even try it.

Paul

Is that in the TOS or is it just the Paul Myers way? Since there are negative references of other forums all over the site.

Anyway, when I first read the thread I thought wow this place and the management is so much better than forum x. And that is what I posted.

It's cool to have values and all, but when faced with praises all you can do is ignore the praises and go straight to tell people what they can't do, then you just sound like an insecure angry old man with no people skills.

Have fun playing storm in a teacup.

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Imran Naseem

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Titans

Is that in the TOS or is it just the Paul Myers way? Since there are negative references of other forums all over the site.

Anyway, when I first read the thread I thought wow this place and the management is so much better than forum x. And that is what I posted.

It's cool to have values and all, but when faced with praises all you can do is ignore the praises and go straight to tell people what they can't do, then you just sound like an insecure angry old man with no people skills.

Have fun playing storm in a teacup.

I disagree.

The mods have a difficult job as it is. Paul is doing a great job so far.

Would you want this forum turn into a silly junk marketplace?

You have to respect the rules and if you cannot see that then there is no point in you making that post.

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Underground SEO

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Imran Naseem

I disagree.

The mods have a difficult job as it is. Paul is doing a great job so far.

Would you want this forum turn into a silly junk marketplace?

You have to respect the rules and if you cannot see that then there is no point in you making that post.

Imran, you talk of respecting the rules, thats all well and good, but in fairness to the poster, it does not state in the rules that you cannot criticise other forums, and like the poster I have in the past seen countless negative references to other forums here.

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Imran Naseem

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by fryerben

Imran, you talk of respecting the rules, thats all well and good, but in fairness to the poster, it does not state in the rules that you cannot criticise other forums, and like the poster I have in the past seen countless negative references to other forums here.

I understand what you are saying but this is the Warrior Forum and if the mods or Paul need to speak their mind they are welcome to do so. It is their territory.

We just need to respect that.

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Anthony La Rocca

15 years ago

Agreed! Have considered all sides now and I appreciate the effort being put forward here Paul. This is for the best, thanks!

Originally Posted by Imran Naseem

I understand what you are saying but this is the Warrior Forum and if the mods or Paul need to speak their mind they are welcome to do so. It is their territory.

We just need to respect that.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Is that in the TOS or is it just the Paul Myers way?

That is my way. I do not participate in or allow things that lead to forum wars. How someone else runs their site is not my business to say.

When I notice negative comments about other forums that are named specifically, I almost always remove them. And I have often warned people against that action.

but when faced with praises all you can do is ignore the praises and go straight to tell people what they can't do, then you just sound like an insecure angry old man with no people skills.

You're welcome to your interpretation. You are not the first person to form that opinion, and it's unlikely you will be the last.

Paul

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Hang on, guys. If he's seeing those comments about other forums, he's right to make the point he did. Don't hassle people for expressing a valid perspective in a rational way.

What he's not taken into consideration is that the mods don't all see every post, and that there is significant discretion for each one in how they deal with various issues. A necessary part of the function. Titans said nothing in that post that was out of bounds.

Paul
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Ken Strong 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Titans

Have fun playing storm in a teacup.

How EVER will this forum survive if all the anonymous newbies with negative attitudes leave us?
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- Underground SEO 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by KenStrong
  
  How EVER will this forum survive if all the anonymous newbies with negative attitudes leave us?
  
  thats a big assumption there, I don't think from one post where the chap is simply giving us his point of view we can brand him a negative newbie. This is a sure fire recipe for alienating people AND ensuring potential members don't stay for long if they think they'll just get shot down when they say something that may be against the consensus.
  
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Zabrina 15 years ago

Originally Posted by jsherloc

But what do you think is gonna happen when this stuff WORKS. No you absolutely do not need it at all, but it works.

I'm probably the only one who thought of Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal". That works, too, even if the kids don't like it...!
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kindsvater 15 years ago

I don't know why it would be a surprise that a forum does not want to be associated with products that spam forums.

Or that a popular online marketing business (forum) would not want to be associated with products that harm other businesses.

The idea is to attract people with valuable information to share ... not repel them.

.
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Robert Puddy

15 years ago

Originally Posted by jsherloc

I don't think you need "bh tactics" at all to succeed, but a lot of it works, and works well. That is the nature of the beast right now. I just think, who are we to pass judgement on someone that builds 30 forum profile backlinks instead of writing 30 blog posts over the course of month, in order to cash a check at the end of the month. Its hard to ignore what truly works and is making the majority of warriors their money online, in the #1 internet marketing forum online.

Excuse me but i intend to pass judgement on every low life who thinks its fine to leave graffitti on my blog or froum.

As i was reading this post this popped up in my email (and there were 3 more just like it posted on different blog posts)

A new comment on the post #121 "Dont look for affiliates... Look for preferred partners" is waiting for your approval
RobertPuddy.com Dont look for affiliates… Look for preferred partners

Comment:
oh, you are very right. I am behind you! And welcome to my blog to comment. Website: wholesale handbag replica|Louis Vuitton Handbag|replica designer handbag|wholesale purses-AsiaHandbag which is about bags. it includes many famous brands such as louis vuitton, chanel, gucci,hermes and so on. the quality is very good ,and the price is very low. i think you will like it . best wishes to you!

Asian hadnbags my ass, its an IM based blog where the only use i have for handbags is to put a brick in it and club the SOB who thought this was kewl to do

Robert

PS: hang the lot of em I say

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CDarklock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

the only use i have for handbags is to put a brick in it

Who do you think you are, the Queen?
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KarlWarren

15 years ago

I'm slowly coming to believe that Paul Myers is a vampire - and as such, doesn't sleep.

This thread has given many of us a lot of entertainment - I enjoy watching the polarisation that occurs when "change" happens. I especially love to watch the effort put in by some of the people who try to resist that change.

It truly goes to show that a community (such as WarriorForum) really is a microcosm. There's a rich diversity of people here - among them: white hat, grey hat, black hat and (in the extreme minority) ruthless criminals.

WF is valuable to a lot of us, not just for the WSO forum. The majority of us want it to remain a great place to socialise, learn and do business.

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Dave d

15 years ago

I'm looking forward to these upcoming changes. Yes I feel sorry for the people who depended on the WSO section for an income as my offline business once depended on a particlular site that moved the goal posts and my business was in deep doo doo.

Throughout my time here I have heard it time and time again that the WSO section is not for you to run your empire from but merely to offer something of value to our fellow Warriors and I for one am glad that I took that at face value and Im also glad that Paul has implemented the necessary steps to revert it back to its sole purpose.

There will be many casualties along the way but I think a lot of people will learn a lot from threads like this and the similiar ones floating around with the the underlying message being diversity.

Personally I buy WSO's to get new angles or ideas on what Im already working on, not to get rich quick and lately the quality has really hit rock bottom, although there are 1 or 2 diamonds out there along with their creators, some of whom I have got to know personally.

So here is to making a lot more of these diamonds shine through and losing the dirt that sometimes hanging around them.

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

I respect the decision. A rule has been enforced. Whiners on both sides should quit it. You don't like it then make your moves quietly. You like it , nod your heads to yourself and continue on.Theres no reason to be rah rahing on any side or trying to vent your personal anger. What good does it do?

Lets not forget (especially those laughing frrom the sidelines and posting videos etc) that there are some pretty respected people here who had connection to some of these services and products. They are not the devil and not having a connection to it doesn't make you a saint. I GUARANTEE YOU I can find people who you love and respect on this forum that posted, had JVs, offered WSOs and did adswaps that recommended backlinks in one shape or the other.

Second I did not take this as a vote aginst SEO. I challenge the assumption that you cannot rank in the search engines without backlink packets that violate TOS or any kind of packet at all. One of the great things about the new enforcement is now maybe we can explore that. However theres no need to be smug because you don't rely on SEO directly. Somewhere down the line your list was built on JVs and adswaps from someone who did rely on SEO. Whatever traffic you do get comes ultimately from a source that does rank.

Its going to take alot of work getting people to see other kinds of link building and its not unnecessary as at least one person implied to learn how to do that. I shouldn't be offending anyone to point out that over the last year backlink products and services have been a significant part of this forum and has been so in plain sight. We need to roll up our sleeves and help newbies and people who think there is no other way not condemn them for something they thought was the only way. They learnt that right here. Don't just throw them over the boat.

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Second I did not take this as a vote aginst SEO. I challenge the assumption that you cannot rank in the search engines without backlink packets that violate TOS or any kind of packet at all.

And here is an interesting thing to know.

You don't have to even rank a site to make money on it or even build a list for that matter.

My first thousands of dollars online were made when I had no clue what a backlink even was.

I dare say I even made money off of one web page that did not get traffic from any paid advertising, and had no links pointing to it at all.

I do feel a little for those who are now a bit confused over what they should be doing, but I do not feel for those who are crying about changes on a forum and have decided there is nothing else this place has to offer.

If all someone has been coming here for is backlink packets and services, they have sadly missed out on the extreme wealth of information that covers every nook and cranny about IM on this forum.

If someone has set their business model to rely only on money they can make holding a WSO, then their model was flawed in the first place. You need to have your own place set up somewhere, and I think one reason that is so evident of this is the course of events that took place here last week with the forum becoming unavailable.

There is a HUGE list of ways to get links going to your site that are all whitehat. And I can testify that you don't need thousands of links to get to page one.

Now, don't think I'm trying to say that I have never looked into additional linking solutions that are no longer entertained here (because I like to see what is going on for myself), but it certainly does not offend me that that one tiny option has been removed. Tiny, small, miniscule - and as I said before not necessary to making money.

I don't see it as a vote against SEO either. I see it as a vote toward white hat and a way to encourage a more natural growth of a website.

Can hormones make you grow big muscles faster? Yes. Can hormones have dangerous side effects and long term consequences? Yes.

Are you going to stop going to a muscle building forum just because they no longer wish to support the use of hormones to make you big? Or are you going to stay to see what they suggest in replacement?

And do you want to know how I got my big muscles without hormones?

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by avenuegirl

There is a HUGE list of ways to get links going to your site that are all whitehat. And I can testify that you don't need thousands of links to get to page one.

Excellent point and extremely true. People were jumping right over Good keyword and competition research in favor of blasting backlinks. Its amazing some of the traffic you can still get from doing great research and relatively few links which can be had very white hat.

Can hormones make you grow big muscles faster? Yes. Can hormones have dangerous side effects and long term consequences? Yes.

Are you going to stop going to a muscle building forum just because they no longer wish to support the use of hormones to make you big? Or are you going to stay to see what they suggest in replacement?

Great example. There was and is a definite push button and give me a business mentality in IM. I think its entirely possible to particpate on sites and get some added benefits allowed by that particpation that can work very long term for you and the sites you particpate on. However I found people didn't want to hear about that. They did for awhile but then things went downhill pretty fast.

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marcdonovan

15 years ago

Angela says that her links are only seen by GoogleBot, since the only place she puts her links is in the sig or profile. If she does not post on the forum then no human ever sees her links. Is this spam or not? Does it violate any TOS? I doubt it, but it's certainly possible. It should be up to google to provide the proper weighting for profile link juice. What color is that hat?

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by marcdonovan

Angela says that her links are only seen by GoogleBot, since the only place she puts her links is in the sig or profile. If she does not post on the forum then no human ever sees her links. Is this spam or not? Does it violate any TOS? I doubt it, but it's certainly possible. It should be up to google to provide the proper weighting for profile link juice. What color is that hat?

So lets say you have a website or forum. One day is says you have gone from 100 members to 2,000 members - yet none of your new members seem to be posting to your site.

Would this bother you at all?

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Underground SEO

15 years ago

Originally Posted by avenuegirl

So lets say you have a website or forum. One day is says you have gone from 100 members to 2,000 members - yet none of your new members seem to be posting to your site.

Would this bother you at all?

it wouldn't bother me, just because you become a member of a forum you don't have to start posting there. You're free to do what you choose to do. I also think all those who believe that they have never broken a sites TOS, I'm sure website owners like ezine etc wouldn't be too happy if they knew people were constantly spinning articles to provide just one example. Every piece of automation software you use will be pretty much against a sites TOS.

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by avenuegirl

So lets say you have a website or forum. One day is says you have gone from 100 members to 2,000 members - yet none of your new members seem to be posting to your site.

Would this bother you at all?

I would jump for joy.

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Underground SEO 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

I would jump for joy.

very true as well!
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Jill Carpenter 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

I would jump for joy.

LOL, Tom, I have a joke of a site that currently says it has almost a thousand members (I believe).

Here is the kicker. It is Joomla, it has one page on it, and some testing I did in the forum, but is not really a site to sign up to and do anything on.

It is ALL spam sign ups. I have it set so no one can post until they have been approved as a member. I don't think they can even go in to set up a profile.

I'm not even going to go into all the spam that just gets kicked into my blogs daily.
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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by avenuegirl

One day is says you have gone from 100 members to 2,000 members - yet none of your new members seem to be posting to your site.

Would this bother you at all?

Without getting into ANY KIND of justification of them doing that. If I had a forum I was working on getting going and had other users I think I might be happy to show the membership count. If I had the site going and well established I don't know. I'd have to think about it. I could see it both ways.

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Without getting into ANY KIND of justification of them doing that. If I had a forum I was working on getting going and had other users I think I might be happy to show the membership count. If I had the site going and well established I don't know. I'd have to think about it. I could see it both ways.

Ok, so shall I display the member names as well?

You see how many signups I get and how often? You want a forum that does this? Because I will sell it to you or I can make one just for you.

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Actually, I was pretty saddened to not see one of my usernames on that list

Then I saw how you said your site is Joomla based, well I don't do Joomla sites

Originally Posted by avenuegirl

Ok, so shall I display the member names as well?

You see how many signups I get and how often? You want a forum that does this? Because I will sell it to you or I can make one just for you.

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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Originally Posted by avenuegirl

You see how many signups I get and how often? You want a forum that does this? Because I will sell it to you or I can make one just for you.

I'll pass because of this not that list

Here is the kicker. It is Joomla, it has one page on it, and some testing I did in the forum, but is not really a site to sign up to and do anything on.

What are you compalining about anyways? I'll swap you for my blog moderation que of names. I didn't see any miss Viagras or Mr Pokerhands..

YOu got off easy.

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

Actually, I was pretty saddened to not see one of my usernames on that list Then I saw how you said your site is Joomla based, well I don't do Joomla sites

Ummm. Joomla doesn't have a built in Forum I don't think. It does integrate with SMF though. So maybe you still are disappointed?
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- Jill Carpenter 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony
  
  YOu got off easy.
  
  Oh, it's in there. did you notice the user who has "warez" in the name? lol
  
  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony
  
  Ummm. Joomla doesn't have a built in Forum I don't think. It does integrate with SMF though. So maybe you still are disappointed?
  
  There is a component or something that I popped a matching forum in with like 2 clicks. Oh yeah - fireboard.
  
  Perhaps the sign-up should start going to a payment page? lol
  
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  Mike Anthony 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by avenuegirl
  
  There is a component or something that I popped a matching forum in with like 2 clicks. Oh yeah - fireboard.
  
  Oh yeah thats the name of it. Heres a practical tip though. If you have the license permission to do it and you run a forum - remove identifiers like
  
  "Powered by Fireboard" "Powered by phbb" etc (don't know if you can do that with the commercial forum software)
  
  To scrapers its the equivalent of activating the Klingon cloaking mechanism. You will be much harder to find.
  
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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by marcdonovan

Angela says that her links are only seen by GoogleBot, since the only place she puts her links is in the sig or profile. If she does not post on the forum then no human ever sees her links.

That's not true.

About four years ago I did a fundraiser for a local dog shelter in memory of my recently diseased dog (Simon). I did a silent auction on a forum that I created just for the purpose.

I suppose there were a couple hundred people who joined the forum to donate items and bid on the auctions. When the auction was over, I locked all the threads as well as the forums so folks wouldn't post any more.

Many months later I went back to the forum just to look at it again, as it was kind of like a little memorial for Simon. Now there were thousands and thousands of members. No new posts, of course, because I had locked it down. But there were thousands of members with pharmaceutical, porn, SEO and every other type of ad and link in their profiles.

I was pretty horrified... and pissed. My nice memory of a silent auction for my dog had turned into a spam fest.

All you had to do was click on "members" to see these profiles. And these profiles were also accessible via a search engine. Just like here on the Warrior Forum -- do a search in Google for a member's name, and you'll likely find their WF profile via Google.

In other words, humans most certainly do see profile links. And seeing garbage like this when you view the member's list can turn legit members away from joining a forum.

Cheers,
Becky

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by R Hagel

That's not true.

About four years ago I did a fundraiser for a local dog shelter in memory of my recently diseased dog (Simon). I did a silent auction on a forum that I created just for the purpose.

You were a victim of a scrape. Its part of a practice I came to hate. Basically your list was found by certain terms the forum uses. After that No one bothered to look at what the site was about or if they did they didn't care. Thats the part I hated.

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by marcdonovan

Angela says that her links are only seen by GoogleBot, since the only place she puts her links is in the sig or profile. If she does not post on the forum then no human ever sees her links.

Perhaps you misinterpreted what Angela says. You might have read it that way, but I highly doubt Angela would have said that.

You know why? Because if that statement was true, that defies one of the main rules of finding good sites to put up your profile. That rule is, find a site where you can see someone's profile while not logged in.

More than likely, Angela was making a reference to the fact that in order to make the links work you don't have to post on the forum (i.e., it isn't like a xrumer forum post blast).

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Texjd

15 years ago

I remember when Angelina released her first WSO on finding the profile links. When I saw it I said to myself, uh oh, Pandora's Box has just been opened on links. I had used profiles on very subject related sites for years (find of forum about your subject matter and participate in discussions and you get traffic two ways - links and from your posts).

When I saw that someone figured out you can just join then dance away and still get some good link juice I knew it was going to get ugly. I never even considered that someone would write software to automate the process, which is even worse.

This has changed the whole landscape of linking. Now anybody can go buy 20,000 links for $50. This really screws the pooch for a lot of people who spent a lot of time and effort doing it the right way. Is it wrong? It's a matter of opinion but that doesn't change the fact that links are rapidly becoming less and less valuable.

I really thought Google would figure out a way to drop the value of profiles and they may be doing that slowly but surely anyway. But it's still a mess with no good solution.

And blogs are being overwhelmed by all this crap. I use every tool available but it still causes me a headache and I'm really getting tired of the cat and mouse game it takes to constantly monitor posts.

I agree with Allen's choice but I'm afraid that there's so many other avenues for this type of service to advertise it won't make a dent in the popularity. Blackhat will always be around but this method is way too easy to use and like mentioned it can and does work.

My only hope is that forums start catching on and make it more difficult to get links in this manner. I have seen a lot go to a number of posts before the profile links go live. That would go a long way in helping on the profiles side, Not sure what can help the blogs since it's a lot harder to deal with even with every type of plugin installed.

When I'm doing research and see an article with 6,000 links I just shake my head in wonder. Especially when the article absolutely sucks and would'nt convince a monkey to click on any link.

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Joe118

15 years ago

My $0.02: WSOs don't violate sites' TOS, people violate sites' TOS (ala' guns don't kill people...)

But I guess something had to be done, so the good stuff gets flushed out with the scams. Oh well. Yes, my two WSOs got the dreaded notice.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Joe,

My $0.02: WSOs don't violate sites' TOS, people violate sites' TOS (ala' guns don't kill people...)

Perhaps we should have said "encourages" or "facilitates." Whatever. One thing you'll learn if you play that game is that I don't fall for the forum lawyer word-niggling.

But I guess something had to be done, so the good stuff gets flushed out with the scams. Oh well. Yes, my two WSOs got the dreaded notice.

Good stuff? One of those is a blog spamming tool. How the hell is that "good stuff?"

Hey, folks... Want to tell a guy who helps blog spammers to mess with your sites what you think of him and his "good stuff?" Here's your chance.

Say "Hi" to the nice people, Joe.

Paul

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Robert Puddy

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Joe,Perhaps we should have said "encourages" or "facilitates." Whatever. One thing you'll learn if you play that game is that I don't fall for the forum lawyer word-niggling.Good stuff? One of those is a blog spamming tool. How the hell is that "good stuff?"

Hey, folks... Want to tell a guy who helps blog spammers to mess with your sites what you think of him and his "good stuff?" Here's your chance.

Say "Hi" to the nice people, Joe.

Paul

i tried but every word i typed got changed into *********
so i gave up

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Hey, Joe. Read this thread: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...-spammers.html

Yeah. That's you. You create those headaches. Wanna tell me again how it's "good stuff?"

I could probably find a hundred threads like that here. There are people in this forum who would cheerfully hurt you - physically - if they weren't more civilized than you and your customers.

Paul
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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Good stuff? One of those is a blog spamming tool. How the hell is that "good stuff?"

...because it works. The holier than thou attitude is getting a bit unreal in this thread. Why anyone ever allows comments on blogs is beyond me, but that's a different point.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Tom,

...because it works. The holier than thou attitude is getting a bit unreal in this thread. Why anyone ever allows comments on blogs is beyond me, but that's a different point.

You're one post like this away from a permanent ban. You've pushed the "defending and promoting abusive practices" button all day long, and I've let you do it. This one is beyond sense, unless being banned is your goal.

Why would people allow comments on a blog? Ummm... To enable intelligent communication? To allow individuals to share alternative perspectives and to help each other understand various sides of an issue?

You know... the same reasons I let you make the comments you've made in this conversation, despite the fact that we have a long-standing policy that prohibits the promotion of spamming of any kind in this forum?

You've gotten away with enough trolling for one weekend, sir.

Paul
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sanssecret

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

...because it works. The holier than thou attitude is getting a bit unreal in this thread. Why anyone ever allows comments on blogs is beyond me, but that's a different point.

I notice you didn't deny it was a spamming tool.

Does it work? Do people really allow those comments on their blogs? I've never looked at your WSO so I have no idea what it is, but I'm assuming that even if you're posting automated, spammy comments, it must take a little time out of your day to set up the software and run it.

Considering that 99.9% of site owners will not publish the comments what purpose has it served? Are the few that do get through worth it?

Forgive me for being thick here folks, and I know that the written word is hard to understand properly so let me point out I'm not having a dig at anyone or their software or their attitudes.

What I don't understand is, why would you go out and mess up someone else's chances of building up a decent site when you all know yourselves how hard it is to try and build up a site in the first place.

I get frustrated as hell when I'm stuck behind a learner driver but I don't slam into them and try and run them off the road before they've had a chance to get their licence. I was that learner driver myself once. (and yeah I know some of you will argue that women drivers aren't much better

)

I get a damn site more peeved at the wannabe racing drivers who think they own the road and can cut everyone else up in their quest to show off their 'skills'. Skills that might just end up in them killing only themselves if they're lucky, or taking someone else with them if they're not.

Now I'm assuming that all this bh stuff means that when you get caught your business goes bust. That's fine. Just please don't take mine down with you.

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mrdomains 15 years ago

Here´s one way to look at all this:

Every so often, Google goes on cleanup patrol and the shady shortcuts easily become death traps. Small and big sites tend to be affected. If you look historically at changes that have been made and the policing they have done, most of it (maybe all?) is countermeasures to plug loopholes, exploits, etc. The basic rules and functionality for websites, promotion and WH methods have remained effective and mostly unchanged over time. It works like society in general. If you do the right thing , live and prosper in peace.

WF is doing us all a favor by enforcing strict whitehat methods and thereby pushing us to build more resilient businesses.

It might seem like more work but when building on solid ground you build to last. Less work in the long run as periodic maintenance is sweet compared to continuous rebuilding
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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe118

My $0.02: WSOs don't violate sites' TOS, people violate sites' TOS (ala' guns don't kill people...)

But I guess something had to be done, so the good stuff gets flushed out with the scams. Oh well. Yes, my two WSOs got the dreaded notice.

I saw your good stuff. If I had my way, you'd be banned from being
able to market online at all.

Please don't come anywhere near my blog that I have to weed out of
dozens of spam posts daily.

Yeah, you're a real credit to this community.

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p2y

15 years ago

Paul, I submitted a WSO for a rss program and a directory submission program but I haven't heard anything so I'm guessing they were denied, does rule 7 also apply to stuff like rss directories, website directories, article directories, and press releases? I was under the impression that those types of programs would be ok.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by p2y

Paul, I submitted a WSO for a rss program and a directory submission program but I haven't heard anything so I'm guessing they were denied, does rule 7 also apply to stuff like rss directories, website directories, article directories, and press releases? I was under the impression that those types of programs would be ok.

I have no idea if they were denied or not. As far as the specific program types, I'd have to look at them. I do not claim to be an authority on all things IM, and some of this stuff is into areas I only go with my extra tall boots on.

Paul

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by p2y

Paul, I submitted a WSO for a rss program and a directory submission program but I haven't heard anything so I'm guessing they were denied, does rule 7 also apply to stuff like rss directories, website directories, article directories, and press releases? I was under the impression that those types of programs would be ok.

This can't be right. By themselves RSS, Directories, article sites and Press releases are all bright white hat. Clean as a whistle that violate no TOS.

Unless the Submission program breaks captcha, uses proxies etc?

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jatchue

Banned 15 years ago

I personally thing that Paul and Steve are 2 little bitches, and if I ever run into you in person I will knock you on your sanctimonious asses.

Is that enough to earn me a ban?

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Imran Naseem

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by jatchue

I personally thing that Paul and Steve are 2 little bitches, and if I ever run into you in person I will knock you on your sanctimonious asses.

Is that enough to earn me a ban?

And you just got yourself a ban for being immature and rude.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Imran,

And you just got yourself a ban for being immature and rude.

He wanted one. Old game. He'll be back and trolling with another username, thinking that makes him somehow smart or powerful. That's how these guys play the game.

The souls of spammers. Same color as their hats.

Paul
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by jatchue

I personally thing that Paul and Steve are 2 little bitches, and if I ever run into you in person I will knock you on your sanctimonious asses.

Is that enough to earn me a ban?

Yep. If you'd left it targeted at me, you'd probably have been alright. Mods are, IMO, fair targets. The other members are not.

Paul

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Bill Farnham

15 years ago

Originally Posted by jatchue

I personally thing that Paul and Steve are 2 little bitches, and if I ever run into you in person I will knock you on your sanctimonious asses.

Is that enough to earn me a ban?

I think we have a winner!

Wouldn't surprise me if this is the first successful thing this person has done online to date.

~Bill

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LB

15 years ago

Perhaps WSOs need a way to "flag for mod" similar to the report post button?

Maybe I'm just making things more complicated than they need to be...but with all the infinite variables out there it just seems to come back to "members are moderators".

If it seems black hat- flag it.

I've been stunned over the last year or so to purchase WSOs with raving reviews only to find out they were about scamming CPA submits or pretending to be a women (seriously...WTF mate?) to get affiliate commissions.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by LB

Perhaps WSOs need a way to "flag for mod" similar to the report post button?

You do that with the report post button. Given specific enough comments, we can take action on things we might have missed, or aspects that might not have been mentioned in the ad copy itself.

Paul

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Zabrina

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

You do that with the report post button. Given specific enough comments, we can take action on things we might have missed, or aspects that might not have been mentioned in the ad copy itself.

Paul

Hmm... perhaps this could be added to the rules or clarified in the "members are mods" thread. I think some newer members (myself included) didn't know this, but it could certainly help cut down on the problem WSOs if everyone knew about it.

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Andrew11

15 years ago

I am sure there is I've seen another thread about this too. What specifically Google's plans are for WSO rankings I'm not sure. What's your experience been with rankings?

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Andrew11

I am sure there is I've seen another thread about this too. What specifically Google's plans are for WSO rankings I'm not sure. What's your experience been with rankings?

I'm pretty sure when people post WSOs they generally aren't going for Google rankings for those WSOs....but if i'm worng, i'm all ears on that one. I wouldn't expect the Google search volumes would be that high:rolleyes:

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FredJones

15 years ago

Want to understand this - is running a service based on backlink detection legitimate?

In other words, I do not help anyone making any backlink. I only analyze a given site (competitor) and tell my client where have they given their backlinks to get their (competitor's) ranking, the page rank of the the page and domain and with what anchor text etc.

Please note that the places where competitors get linked from is not in the control of the service provider. They may have "spammed other's blogs" or done cleaner things such as directory submission, article submission, legitimate link wheels (such as squidoo, hubpages) or blogroll-based linking to name a few.

In essence, I am talking about using a system like BacklinkWatch.com or the likes but as a service.

Is that legitimate still?

Paul Myers is the best person to give input, and I would be most happy to hear from you, Paul. Sorry if I sound "fishy", I want to remain clean and was planning to offer this service shortly, so I want to make sure that I am clean. I would not dream of coming out dirty, and I would be happy to abandon any plan of offering the service if you think it is against the TOS.

P.S. - Wanted to add, personally I appreciate the move made here by implementing rule #7. There may be temporary effects on people, but the Warrior Forum is going to remain a tremendous place as always, and cleaner too in the longer term.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Fred,

Want to understand this - is running a service based on backlink detection legitimate?

In other words, I do not help anyone making any backlink. I only analyze a given site (competitor) and tell my client where have they given their backlinks to get their (competitor's) ranking, the page rank of the the page and domain and with what anchor text etc.

I don't see any problem with what you've described here.

Paul

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Want to understand this - is running a service based on backlink detection legitimate?

In other words, I do not help anyone making any backlink. I only analyze a given site (competitor) and tell my client where have they given their backlinks to get their (competitor's) ranking, the page rank of the the page and domain and with what anchor text etc.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Fred,I don't see any problem with what you've described here.

Paul one of the number one ways of developing a backlink packet is to analyze other sites that I'm pretty sure you would consider are breaking Sites TOS. If this is allowed them backlink services are back.

Fred admitted that here

Please note that the places where competitors get linked from is not in the control of the service provider. They may have "spammed other's blogs" or done cleaner things such as directory submission, article submission, legitimate link wheels (such as squidoo, hubpages) or blogroll-based linking to name a few.

So in essense this is a backlink service providing information to users where to find links. No real difference from a packet. The only difference ( and it isn't a difference because its not a unique method) is how the backlink lists are compiled and that Fred is calling it "Backlink detection".

Every backlink packet used "detection" methods and most used that method along with scraping. This is just a back door way of offering a backlink "packet". There isn't a backlink seller that couldn't reword his WSO, change his detection method and be right back in the game with essentailly the same backlinks (being used by a competitor)..

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FredJones

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Every backlink packet used "detection" methods and most used that method along with scraping. This is just a back door way of offering a backlink "packet". There isn't a backlink seller that couldn't reword his WSO, change his detection method and be right back in the game with essentailly the same backlinks (being used by a competitor)..

Mike, I do acknowledge that my question addresses an angle that sounded gray to me, which was the entire motivation of the question. If I had already understood it to be good or bad (either way) clearly then I would not have asked the question at all in the first place. Just wanted to clarify my standpoint before I said anything further.

Having said that (and having acknowledged once more that I want to stay on the white side of life, no blue/gray/black hats intended), there are still significant differences between backlink packets and this one. Some of them follow.

1. A backlink pack will essentially detect places where one can "easily" drop backlinks without any real control, thereby potentially spamming the site. This service, on the other hand, will no way give you guarantees that you can drop your backlink in those places, and definitely not easily. I still do realize that every "competition" site that the client may have may possibly still have multiple such backlinks where one can "easily" drop their links also, but this service will no way restrict to that.

2. This service is not about finding places to drop backlinks. It is about what is the anchor text used, whether there are sitewide links, finding the diversity of the links, and so on. But I do agree, it will always run the risk of exposing places where one can drop links too.

Paul, in light of the above discussion, please let know in case you have any thoughts about this - I have seen that initially you mentioned it is acceptable but just in case this discussion affects any part of the overall thought process. I shall take only your words to be the final in this case.

More of a question outside the scope of what I discussed previously - I see a bunch of WSOs that talk about traffic. I have seen many of them then in turn talk about using SEO to generate the traffic, and then in turn talk about dropping links "here and there" (such as social bookmarking sites and so on) - though I have not seen the recently bumped ones so I may be wrong here - I am talking about the general trend rather than any specific WSO bumped/launched recently. So while on the face of it they would appear to be traffic-improvement WSO, most of them invariably would talk about link building and then talk about these link sources (social bookmarking, blog commenting, forum profile building etc). Do they still remain legitimate? Trying to figure where the line is being drawn as of now.

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

1. A backlink pack will essentially detect places where one can "easily" drop backlinks without any real control, thereby potentially spamming the site. This service, on the other hand, will no way give you guarantees that you can drop your backlink in those places, and definitely not easily.

I still do realize that every "competition" site that the client may have may possibly still have multiple such backlinks where one can "easily" drop their links also, but this service will no way restrict to that.

Then there is a way that they can and will drop the links easily. Essentially all you would have to do to create the same information in many backlink packets is find a competitor's site that is full of prohibited backlinks and then be free to sell that info. That works out exactly the same as backlink packet. No difference. So essentially its down to a matter of trust which I thought was what the whole idea of outlawing all link packets was about - not having mods needing to evaluate each packet.

2. This service is not about finding places to drop backlinks. It is about what is the anchor text used, whether there are sitewide links, finding the diversity of the links, and so on. But I do agree, it will always run the risk of exposing places where one can drop links too.

Competitive analysis will always be white hat but compettive analysis does not require you to provide the links themselves. You can list PR, anchor text used and number of backlinks. You are saying you wish to provide the backlinks themselves and you are admitting where this will end up at least some of the times.

Me? I am only tring to make sure I understand the rules and how they are applied so that I stay on the right side of the law. So if I follow up an answer that Paul (

) gives that puzzles me I think its fair to seek clarification. Its the same thing you are asking for.

Incidentally you do notice I never responed to you as if answering your question to Paul right? I was addressing Paul.

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Andy Fletcher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Competitive analysis will always be white hat but compettive analysis does not require you to provide the links themselves. You can list PR, anchor text used and number of backlinks. You are saying you wish to provide the backlinks themselves and you are admitting where this will end up at least some of the times.

I have to disagree with you on this one. If we discount the possibility for abuse for a moment. Competitive analysis does require that you list the sites that have the links on since that is useful information for both white and black link building methods.

If I wish to write guest blog posts for a number of niche blogs I can save myself a lot of time by seeing where my competitors have got similar guests posts published.

If I wish to write forum posts where my signature link will be counted, then this form of competitive intelligence can speed up finding such places.

The list goes on.

Unfortunately, it will also highlight all the spam links they have built for themselves and thus highlight sites that can be exploited for links.

So yes, I can see how a tool like this has a ton of whitehat, straight up value but I can also see how it can be used to exploit other sites.

/me hands the live grenade over to Paul and ducks for cover ... enjoy

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

I have to disagree with you on this one. If we discount the possibility for abuse for a moment. Competitive analysis does require that you list the sites that have the links on since that is useful information for both white and black link building methods.

Love your stuff Andy. One of my favorite SEOs here but I guess we may disagree.

As you especially know in white hat link building you are MOST DEFINITELY not going to be able to duplicate the links your compettiors have link for link. Because they get an in content backlink from a blogger does not mean you are going to get it. Competitive analysis does not require that I match link for identical link only that I understand the factors that relate to the quality of that link. If I know the authority of that site, its trust and PR then yes I can beat the effect of that link without trying to copy the identical link. I can do it with another site tht has those qualities and where I can get a link back from the webmaster. I had better because in White hat link building I am not going to match my competitor's link portfolio identically.

If I wish to write guest blog posts for a number of niche blogs I can save myself a lot of time by seeing where my competitors have got similar guests posts published.

Thats not analysis though. Thats actual link building and you dont NEED
their exact backlink site to beat the position. You put your content positioned on a simliar site with the Same PR and authority and you can duplicate and even beat the link effect without getting the same link

If I wish to write forum posts where my signature link will be counted, then this form of competitive intelligence can speed up finding such places.

And isnt forum backlinking a major component of backlink packets that are now outlawed? MANY backlink packets had backlink locations from competitors sites that ranked for various terms - thats one of the ways people found them. So i'll await clarification. Just pointed that out because not everyone knows this.

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Andy Fletcher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Love your stuff Andy. One of my favorite SEOs here but I guess we may disagree.

As you especially know in white hat link building you are MOST DEFINITELY not going to be able to duplicate the links your compettiors have link for link. Because they get an in content backlink from a blogger does not mean you are going to get it. Competitive analysis does not require that I match link for identical link only that I understand the factors that relate to the quality of that link. If I know the authority of that site, its trust and PR then yes I can beat the effect of that link without trying to copy the identical link. I had better because in White hat link building I am not going to match his link portfolio identically.

Thats not analysis though. Thats actual link building and you dont NEED
their exact backlink site to beat the position. You put your content positioned on a simliar site with the Same PR and authority and you can duplicate and even beat the link effect without getting the same link

You don't NEED it but it sure makes it a faster exercise. If I'm going to approach web masters and bloggers about the possibility of guest posting for them I personally like to start with ones where there is a good chance they are going to be open to the idea. And one of the best places to find this is to see where my competitors have done it.

And isnt forum backlinking a major component of backlink packets that are now outlawed? MANY backlink packets had backlink locations from competitors sites that ranked for various terms - thats one of the ways people found them. So i'll await clarification. Just pointed that out because not everyone knows this.

Agreed it is. I'd like to clarify that I meant using it to find forums where I can post relevant content and use a sig link to drive traffic as well as just getting backlinks (which, for anyone reading, is an order of magnitude better use of your time than spamming backlinks).

So for anyone looking to make the most of the current situation I'd recommend putting together a list of niche forums that are heavily moderated but allow good contributors to sig link their sites. Like this one for example

No, people won't be able to use them to throw up 1,000 ***** links in 30 seconds but they will be able to use them to build high quality, highly relevant links that *gasp* people will actually click on

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

You don't NEED it but it sure makes it a faster exercise. If I'm going to approach web masters and bloggers about the possibility of guest posting for them I personally like to start with ones where there is a good chance they are going to be open to the idea. And one of the best places to find this is to see where my competitors have done it.

I don't want to go too deep into a SEO tactic discussion here as its not appropriate and I think we have already gone there. I won't deny that when I do SEO I don't look at some of the links but I never go in with the idea I am going to supply the client with the links or that I am looking for the links themselves (because in most situations I am not going to be able to duplicate many of them anyway). I'll take your point on Guest blogging but thats a small piece of the pie to most link portfolios to really justify this way of providing backlink locations just like other backlink packages do (I'm not implyingyou were trying to justify it). When I say justify I am in no way implying I have any input into the rules. I'm just saying I don't see how the justification can me made in a reasonable way that this is so much different than how many people constructed their link packets.

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Martin Avis

15 years ago

Originally Posted by FredJones

Want to understand this - is running a service based on backlink detection legitimate?

In other words, I do not help anyone making any backlink. I only analyze a given site (competitor) and tell my client where have they given their backlinks to get their (competitor's) ranking, the page rank of the the page and domain and with what anchor text etc.

Please note that the places where competitors get linked from is not in the control of the service provider. They may have "spammed other's blogs" or done cleaner things such as directory submission, article submission, legitimate link wheels (such as squidoo, hubpages) or blogroll-based linking to name a few.

In essence, I am talking about using a system like BacklinkWatch.com or the likes but as a service.

Is that legitimate still?

Paul Myers is the best person to give input, and I would be most happy to hear from you, Paul. Sorry if I sound "fishy", I want to remain clean and was planning to offer this service shortly, so I want to make sure that I am clean. I would not dream of coming out dirty, and I would be happy to abandon any plan of offering the service if you think it is against the TOS.

P.S. - Wanted to add, personally I appreciate the move made here by implementing rule #7. There may be temporary effects on people, but the Warrior Forum is going to remain a tremendous place as always, and cleaner too in the longer term.

If I understand what you propose correctly the 'legality' of your service would depend on whether you check the list of backlinks for each competitor site manually or with software.

It is against Google's TOS to use software to scrape any information from them, but physically running a link: search manually and writing down the results is not.

Martin

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articlelinker

15 years ago

Just wondering how you get back links now???

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Tom Goodwin 15 years ago

Originally Posted by articlelinker

Just wondering how you get back links now???

Option #1: You get on your knees and pray.

Option #2: If you have loads of $$$, you buy your own high PR sites

If you can't do either, then your SOL, sorry
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin
  
  Option #1: You get on your knees and pray.
  
  Option #2: If you have loads of $$$, you buy your own high PR sites
  
  Option #3: Use your brains instead of depending on brute force abuse of other people's resources.
  
  Paul
  
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Emily Meeks

15 years ago

I know it's been said a thousand times before, but Paul... THANK YOU for cleaning up the WSO forum. It seemed that as of late all that were being sold were backlink packets and income claims, neither of which I'm interested in.

That said, what can the rest of us do to help? When we see such a WSO, do we give an infraction for breaking the rules or hit the report button?

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

That said, what can the rest of us do to help? When we see such a WSO, do we give an infraction for breaking the rules or hit the report button?

Infractions are meaningless, except as a way to remind someone of something. Report it, and be very specific about how it breaks someone's TOS. "I don't like this" is not an actionable basis for anything except choosing not to buy.

Allen hasn't made any rules on the income claims stuff. The comments on that from me have been my personal opinions. I don't make policy, so those should not be taken as such. Hopefully they will at least get people thinking, though, instead of buying into a lie.

Paul

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4morereferrals

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Infractions are meaningless, except as a way to remind someone of something. Report it, and be very specific about how it breaks someone's TOS. "I don't like this" is not an actionable basis for anything except choosing not to buy.

Allen hasn't made any rules on the income claims stuff. The comments on that from me have been my personal opinions. I don't make policy, so those should not be taken as such. Hopefully they will at least get people thinking, though, instead of buying into a lie.

Paul

Outlandish and unsubstantiated income claims and fony screenshots are against the FTC's .... TOS

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Outlandish and unsubstantiated income claims and fony screenshots are against the FTC's .... TOS

[chuckle] Yeah.

The problem becomes, where do we draw the line? Do we have any way of proving what's true and what isn't? That's why I think it gets down to either prohibiting them entirely or leaving them alone. Given that most of them in the WSO forum are BS, I'm strongly in favor of dumping them.

Phony screenshots are a different matter, if they can be demonstrated to have been faked. I'll cheerfully nuke a person for that if I catch them. Stupid excuses like, "I hired a guy to do the salesletter and he created those" won't get you a warning. It'll be, "Lie? Bye!"

Paul
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- Paxton 15 years ago
  
  Again, I don't get it. Big ruckus about the owners of WF deciding how they want THEIR business to run. It's THEIR business and they can decide what is acceptable and what isn't.
  
  Make up a sentence from the following and you have the answer to this or any other rule changes:
  
  pot, piss, get, off, or, the
  
  There must be other forums with less elastic rules. Anybody who objects to the WF rules, vote with your mouse buttons and click off.
  
  By the way Paul - you sound like you would fit in well here. Where I live we have a registered population of 3,500 and 26,000 registered firearms. Last break-in we had was in 1998. Not because we go around blasting away - but because potential burglars know they will probably be staring at blank space where their knees used to be. You'd have to have a serious kamikazi attitude to life to expect to get way with anything here.
  
  Big sticks work. Here's the WF, here's the rules and here's the big stick of you break the rules. End off.
  
  Let me know if you ever fancy a visit.
  
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Andy Hart

15 years ago

Wow this has got some exposure hey, huge amount of views in such a short amount of time, just goes to show how passionate people are about the forum and just how many WSO sellers are now frantically running round like headless chickens..........

"Never put all your eggs in one basket"

The way I feel about whats happening .... EXCITIED !!!

I can't wait to see what types of quality products and services this "clearout" paves the way for, also, judging by some of the comments from more time served warriors it seems these changes may even bring back old skool warriors who have fled else where.

The future looks exciting to say the least, thanks to Mr Paul Myers and Allen

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Mike,

Yes, you could call these backlink packets. However, assuming they're one-offs (done separately for each individual client) I don't think of them that way. Not even close.

You may recall, Mike, that I had no problem with the original backlink packets offered here. They could be used for link spamming, but they could also be used in legitimate ways. Those packets have been turned into services, and the ones I've seen have gotten less and less clear over time about how to use them. We ended up with hordes of people hitting groups of sites, profile spamming and worse. The balance tipped, and they got the axe.

Every marketing effort online carries the potential for abuse. That's something we all have to keep in mind. The potential damage to any individual site with a one-off analysis for a single competitor is very small. It would take a lot of people going up against the same competitor for it to become more than background noise, even if the info were abused by every person getting the reports.

On the flip side, I don't see it as likely that people doing this kind of research will get into the blast-em-all approach. Possible, but not as likely. They're much more likely to use them in ways that create real content and connections, which is valuable stuff.

For example, if I were to use a report like this, I'd be looking at the obvious first: significant comments for purposes of discussion and guest posting where available. I'd also look through the blog rolls, if any, on the various blogs. I might write commentary or related posts for my own blog, with links to the originals. I might approach the owners about affiliating with my newsletter, if that was appropriate.

There are lots of legitimate ways a report like this could be used. The upside outweighs the downside potential by a lot. In cases like that, it would be ridiculous for me to suggest that it's somehow unacceptable.

This kind of decision gets easier when we remember that any marketing technique can be abused. If the simple potential for abuse is all it takes, we'd have to get rid of it all. And that wouldn't help anyone.

Paul

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Jeremy Kelsall

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Every marketing effort online carries the potential for abuse. That's something we all have to keep in mind. The potential damage to any individual site with a one-off analysis for a single competitor is very small. It would take a lot of people going up against the same competitor for it to become more than background noise, even if the info were abused by every person getting the reports.

On the flip side, I don't see it as likely that people doing this kind of research will get into the blast-em-all approach. Possible, but not as likely. They're much more likely to use them in ways that create real content and connections, which is valuable stuff.

For example, if I were to use a report like this, I'd be looking at the obvious first: significant comments for purposes of discussion and guest posting where available. I'd also look through the blog rolls, if any, on the various blogs. I might write commentary or related posts for my own blog, with links to the originals. I might approach the owners about affiliating with my newsletter, if that was appropriate.

There are lots of legitimate ways a report like this could be used. The upside outweighs the downside potential by a lot. In cases like that, it would be ridiculous for me to suggest that it's somehow unacceptable.

This kind of decision gets easier when we remember that any marketing technique can be abused. If the simple potential for abuse is all it takes, we'd have to get rid of it all. And that wouldn't help anyone.

Paul

/thread

Lock er' up

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Mike,

Yes, you could call these backlink packets. However, assuming they're one-offs (done separately for each individual client) I don't think of them that way. Not even close.

You may recall, Mike, that I had no problem with the original backlink packets offered here. They could be used for link spamming, but they could also be used in legitimate ways. Those packets have been turned into services, and the ones I've seen have gotten less and less clear over time about how to use them. We ended up with hordes of people hitting groups of sites, profile spamming and worse. The balance tipped, and they got the axe.

Hey Paul, thats great news. I was under the impression that any kind of backlink packet was out. I never was an advocate of the blasting services and opposed it. When you stated all backlink packets were out even that didn't advocate that I took it at face value that you ddin't want to see any products with that. I'm actually am surprised to see you mention blog commenting at all. I thought all that was out even when done responsibly with sites you particpate on (some packets did lean to this direction). Yes on an individual level it is less likely to result in a blast.

So if you do SEo on an individual basis and it includes backlink sites like the ones (guest blogging, Articles site, forums etc) mentioned its good right? The mods know the dfference?

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I was under the impression that any kind of backlink packet was out.

They are. You will note that I said I don't view this as such a packet. Now, if he did an analysis of the top 6 ski gear sites and sold it to all comers as a way to compete on links, that would become a backlinks packet.

Question: If I put together a list of my favorite blogs and forums, that could be used for inappropriate purposes, yes? But does the simple fact that it includes links make it a backlinks package? No. For one thing, that's not the purpose. For another, just like the service in question, you wouldn't necessarily be able to get links on them all.

Wow. Talk about micro-focusing...

So if you do SEo on an individual basis and it includes backlink sites like the ones (guest blogging, Articles site, forums etc) mentioned its good right?

Yeah. That would be fine. Make bloody good and sure you mention that you're talking about content that's welcome and appropriate for the site it's placed on/offered to.

The mods know the dfference?

Which ones? I would presume so, but I can't speak for all of them.

Paul

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Make bloody good and sure you mention that you're talking about content that's welcome and appropriate for the site it's placed on/offered to.

Paul

Perfect. that makes the way a little more clear for those asking how do they get backlinks now. They should be services that are relevant to the precise individual niche and that require the user to supply relevant participation and content. The way it should always have been

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Tom B

Banned 15 years ago

I am thinking we should disallow people with hair to post wso offers.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

CB,

I am thinking we should disallow people with hair to post wso offers.

Are you suggesting nose and ear plucking, followed by full-body depilation? If so...

You first.

Paul

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Tom B

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

CB,Are you suggesting nose and ear plucking, followed by full-body depilation? If so...

You first.

Paul

haha Already done. Who is next?

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Who is next?

Hamsterboy would make a good candidate...

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Tom B

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Hamsterboy would make a good candidate...

Good lord, that will take a year just to get through his beard. Who knows what lives in that fur. Conspiracy theorists think Chris Sutton is somewhere in there with Howard Hughes.

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

I'm pretty sure when people post WSOs they generally aren't going for Google rankings for those WSOs....but if i'm worng, i'm all ears on that one. I wouldn't expect the Google search volumes would be that high:rolleyes:

Um, you are dead wrong.

I tried at one point to post on how important the titles are on the WSO's, but I still see a lot of people not taking advantage of the WF LOVE you get if you post an offer the right way.

I am 99.9 percent sure I have made sales based on fast ability to rank, as well as the power to stay up well above the fold with no backlinking to my offers on is site.

Stuff posted on this site can hit the front page pretty quick.

At the speed that WSO's were dropping off the front page inside this forum, I would not have received the hits I have if it weren't for the sheer power this forum has out in general google searches.

You can have your ears back now.

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

I stand corrected.

This recent WSO by Tiffany is #1 for for the search: penis enlargement PLR :rolleyes:

As someone who does pretty much only organic SEO stuff, it just seems to me if one is going to go after rankings for keywords, it is better done on one own's site, rather than a WSO. Sort of like everyone who uses EZA when they should be making the main focus of articles on their own sites.

Originally Posted by avenuegirl

Um, you are dead wrong.

I tried at one point to post on how important the titles are on the WSO's, but I still see a lot of people not taking advantage of the WF LOVE you get if you post an offer the right way.

I am 99.9 percent sure I have made sales based on fast ability to rank, as well as the power to stay up well above the fold with no backlinking to my offers on is site.

Stuff posted on this site can hit the front page pretty quick.

At the speed that WSO's were dropping off the front page inside this forum, I would not have received the hits I have if it weren't for the sheer power this forum has out in general google searches.

You can have your ears back now.

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

I stand corrected.

This recent WSO by Tiffany is #1 for for the search: penis enlargement PLR :rolleyes:

As someone who does pretty much only organic SEO stuff, it just seems to me if one is going to go after rankings for keywords, it is better done on one own's site, rather than a WSO. Sort of like everyone who uses EZA when they should be making the main focus of articles on their own sites.

Well, of course you want it to rank on your own site, but sometimes your site is too new to get it where you want it.

So here you get the double whammy benefit of getting something seen by members, and getting that quick top ranking for the rest of the world.

And it's not just in the title. I see people sticking just a link to another site and a sentence or two in the description.

Silly silly.

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Tom Goodwin

15 years ago

Thanks for the very useful insight. I truly never thought about the WSO section (or really WF) that way. Most of my WSO world is limited quantity stuff, so I never really had the urge to attract non WF people to it.

Tom

Originally Posted by avenuegirl

Well, of course you want it to rank on your own site, but sometimes your site is too new to get it where you want it.

So here you get the double whammy benefit of getting something seen by members, and getting that quick top ranking for the rest of the world.

And it's not just in the title. I see people sticking just a link to another site and a sentence or two in the description.

Silly silly.

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Jill Carpenter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

Thanks for the very useful insight. I truly never thought about the WSO section (or really WF) that way. Most of my WSO world is limited quantity stuff, so I never really had the urge to attract non WF people to it.

Tom

Every page you put on the web is an opportunity to get your name or brand out there.

Especially with limited quantity this is important. Do you pay for bumps? Or are you selling as much as you want with a single post?

It only takes one good post if you are going to go limited. Every time you have to bump, it cuts from the profit margin.

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Mike Anthony 15 years ago

Only on warriors could we have an ongoing discussions about both nose hair and penis enlargement PLR in a WSO rules thread.
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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Jill,

So here you get the double whammy benefit of getting something seen by members, and getting that quick top ranking for the rest of the world.

Example: Brian Kindsvater posted a comment about the FTC's action against what look like scammy CPA offers, and included a quote from the announcement. When someone asked for a link to the source, I Googled that quote. There was his WF post, at the top of the SERP, above the FTC's listing for the announcement.

Paul
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4morereferrals 15 years ago

This recent WSO by Tiffany is #1 for for the search: penis enlargement PLR

Yeah I saw that on WSO forum too .

Now thats marketing with "Quality Content"!!! 2 Thumbs Up

Here - buy my Penis pump PLR and splam the living bejeeezus out of google, the article directories and blogs with your worthless Penis Enraging spam ... but whatever you do ... dont even think of pimping a backlink. Sorry I just find irony and humor.
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- Tom Goodwin 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by 4morereferrals
  
  Yeah I saw that on WSO forum too .
  
  Replace, "saw" with "bought" and I would believe you.:rolleyes:
  
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tj 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I am thinking we should disallow people with hair to post wso offers.

Don't you still have hair in your nose ? /me hides and runs ....
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Ken Strong 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I am thinking we should disallow people with hair to post wso offers.

Works for me.
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- 4morereferrals 15 years ago
  
  Every page you put on the web is an opportunity to get your name or brand out there.
  
  Hrmmmm - sounds kinda spammy to me.
  
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Mike,

Perfect. that makes the way a little more clear for those asking how do they get backlinks now. They should be services that are relevant to the precise individual niche and that require the user to supply relevant participation and content. The way it should always have been

Just so we're clear: If an SEO service includes postings that are appropriate and non-abusive and end up creating links, along with other elements - Good.

Only or primarily backlinks? Not here. Not even if they're all 100% white hat. Because the people who'd do the abusive stuff will call it white hat and we're back where we started on that point.

Most people would find it hard to imagine the lies we're told every day. The tellers assume that since we can't prove they're lying we have to accept their BS and give them a pass. Not how it works.

"Whoops. You didn't know? Too bad. Pay more attention next time."

Paul

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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Mike,Just so we're clear: If an SEO service includes postings that are appropriate and non-abusive and end up creating links, along with other elements - Good.

Only or primarily backlinks? Not here. Not even if they're all 100% white hat.

I get that. What I didn't get was how delivering some of the same TOS violating backlinks that my competitor might use in a report would be different than getting it from a packet. If you say its due to being individualized and not as likely subject to mass abuse I understand the point. Me? I would stay with the competitive analysis if I choose to offer anything here so I see no issues now. maybe along with RSS, Press releases and article sites that all allow for the content and the links.

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FredJones

15 years ago

Fantastic, Paul cites exactly what I intend to do including the purposes and possible uses by the client. Great to hear this, and makes sense to me.

Just as another example, again in a one-on-one service mode per request (and not blasting to the world or putting up the results for open sale), if a client sends me a bunch of URLs (I do not get it for the client, and it is purely the client's headache to decide what are the URLs s/he is going to send me), and I involve in say purely finding the pagerank of the URLs then I would still presume it to be valid. That is, input = a bunch of URLs supplied by client, output = the pageranks of the same bunch of URLs that the client has given, possibly including the domain PR too. In my mind, this is an example of a service which is still valid, although it involves backlinks. And I am sure there are many more such examples.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Mike,Just so we're clear: If an SEO service includes postings that are appropriate and non-abusive and end up creating links, along with other elements - Good.

Only or primarily backlinks? Not here. Not even if they're all 100% white hat. Because the people who'd do the abusive stuff will call it white hat and we're back where we started on that point.

Most people would find it hard to imagine the lies we're told every day. The tellers assume that since we can't prove they're lying we have to accept their BS and give them a pass. Not how it works.

"Whoops. You didn't know? Too bad. Pay more attention next time."

Paul

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Fred,

Also not a problem.

Paul
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- Roaddog 15 years ago
  
  Good day, evening or whatever time zone you happen to be in.
  
  Usually I stay out of this type of post, but this actually is quite a good one and IHMO an important one. I am someone who tries very hard to see both sides in a "controversy". I believe in the adage that there is two sides to every story and then there is the truth. After reading almost all this post and the comments, while I can certainly understand the one poster's concern about keeping up with the "Jones's"
  
  I would have to side with Paul Meyers on this.
  Let me use an analogy. I ran my own construction business here in Southern California. I did things properly, knew what I was doing, worked long and hard to learn my trade before starting a business. Carried all the required insurance (two million worth here for building houses) everything on the up and up. To make a long story short I was constantly competing on bids with people who did not carry insurance, did not pay workers comp, etc, etc...
  made false promises and did decidedly inferior work, took every shortcut you can think of. I thought about cutting some corners to get more work, and decided against it. My rep meant more to me than that.I decided to stay with the higher end bids, (more expensive houses that you have to show proof of all that is required by law),and my ethics. It took longer to get steady work, but once my rep as someone who had a quality product to give became known, I had more work than I could hire people to help me with.
  
  Well needless to say the people who hired the guy's that tried to game the system ended up paying far more than my original bid to fix all the screw-ups.
  And they were not happy. No return business for those contractors and in many cases the complete loss of their licenses.
  
  The irony of all this is that, as I'm sure most of you know, the construction business went bust here in So Cal, as in most places in the country.
  The real estate and construction business went bust because of a lack of ethics in the top echelons of the mortgage and real estate industries.
  And almost took the entire countries economy with it.(Juries still out on that one)
  Hows that for irony?
  
  My point is, IMHO, we have been bamboozled into thinking that anything worth while can come overnight. In fact we all but demand it. When in reality, that is far from the truth.
  We cannot have anything goes, in this forum. Anarchy will only lead to the eventual downfall of, what has become the number one I.M. forum in the world. IMHO. This did not happen by accident. It took hard work and dedication on behalf of the people that built and run it.
  
  Summer is coming and we need some spring cleaning.
  
  Keep your ethics people. It is much harder, you can believe it or not, but "the truth will out"
  
  I have lived long enough and been thru enough
  to have very little doubt about that.
  This forum has some great people in it.
  Lets keep it that way and keep it a great forum for learning the correct way to do things. Rep is very important.
  
  I am hardly a "milk-toast" or kiss ass. Trust me.
  
  Please do not get me wrong, there will always be and should be questioning of things and differences of opinion. But done on a mature level, you cannot help but learn something
  
  Thanks for reading my rant
  
  Jim
  Roaddog
  
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  Mike Anthony 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Roaddog
  
  I have lived long enough and been thru enough
  to have very little doubt about that.
  
  Too true but I had to smile at that when I looked at your avatar. Cute son or grandson though
  
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Mike Anthony

15 years ago

Originally Posted by FredJones

Just as another example, again in a one-on-one service mode per request (and not blasting to the world or putting up the results for open sale), if a client sends me a bunch of URLs (I do not get it for the client, and it is purely the client's headache to decide what are the URLs s/he is going to send me), and I involve in say purely finding the pagerank of the URLs then I would still presume it to be valid.

Just a heads up Fred. Most people involved in SEO here know how to look up PR. Its pretty easy and in their best interest to learn to do it themselves. Nothing wrong withoffering just saying you might not have that much takers. Agree on the clarification. It makes sense from a mass abuse standpoint where it didnt strictly make sense from a TOS standpoint for the reasons I listed.

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Joseph Then

15 years ago

I've just spent 30+ minutes reading 8 pages full of comments (and one idiot who is begging to be ban) in this thread.

Yes, I got the same, professional email from Paul Myers and thanks for the highlight. Let me see if I can get my WSO aligned with #7, but if not, I'm fine with taking it down.

I'll send you a PM to clarify.

Thanks for the effort, Mr Paul. I would like to spend this time to click on every 'thanks' button for your posts in this thread, but then it would take another 30 minutes.

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theverysmartguy

15 years ago

Well I for one am Glad that the WSO is finally being cleaned up. Ive was pondering about posting one of my own. However, I have seen some pretty questionable WSO's up there, and thought better of it.

This is especially related to how fast the questionable WSO get bumped, because of the ton of other questionable WSO's get put up, and they likewise get bumped as well.

It would be like spinning the wheel of fortune, but most of the spaces are taken up by the bankruptcy sign, and only a few of them are worth anything. You just go around and around, hoping something good will come of it.

Anyways, that is my thoughts on the matter. I was reading through the whole thing, and realized that there are a ton of pages, and figured Id post a reply now, and not when I got old and grey...lol

-- Jeff

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by theverysmartguy

This is especially related to how fast the questionable WSO get bumped, because of the ton of other questionable WSO's get put up, and they likewise get bumped as well.

My own personal tests - and your mileage may vary - indicate that WSOs now stay in the public eye more than twice as long.

When I posted my last two WSOs, and did my last three bumps, I clocked the average time from post/bump to eligibility for bump at 12:40.

Less than thirteen hours.

My most recent WSO was ineligible to be bumped for over 24 hours. I wanted to test bumping at a specific time, but it's going to have to wait until tonight, because I couldn't bump yet when it rolled around.

You know what I miss from WSO Pro? The alert email when my WSO is eligible to be bumped. This is my first product WSO that doesn't use WSO Pro, and I've been missing a lot of its features.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

My own personal tests - and your mileage may vary - indicate that WSOs now stay in the public eye more than twice as long.

Don't count on that lasting. There weren't that many that were disallowed, so I expect it's got additional factors involved.

Paul

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Don't count on that lasting. There weren't that many that were disallowed, so I expect it's got additional factors involved.

Everything that happens in the WSO forum is a complex cause question, and chaos theory is always in full effect.

I honestly think that all the analysis and whatnot on WSO posting and timing and all that stuff is so domain-specific, you're better off ignoring it. Make the best offer you can, and post it when you think the people who want it will be looking. It will be a lot faster, you'll worry a lot less, and you'll probably get the same damn results anyway.

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TimG

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Everything that happens in the WSO forum is a complex cause question, and chaos theory is always in full effect.

I honestly think that all the analysis and whatnot on WSO posting and timing and all that stuff is so domain-specific, you're better off ignoring it. Make the best offer you can, and post it when you think the people who want it will be looking. It will be a lot faster, you'll worry a lot less, and you'll probably get the same damn results anyway.

It also helps if the WSO provider offers a WSO that is of considerable value because then it sells itself regardless of where it sits on the vast number of pages containing WSOs.

* - This wasn't posted in anyway to infer that your offers are not quality material. On the contrary, I enjoy the material you post and just wanted to add my 2 cents in to your sound advice given above.

Respectfully,
Tim

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TimG

It also helps if the WSO provider offers a WSO that is of considerable value because then it sells itself regardless of where it sits on the vast number of pages containing WSOs.

* - This wasn't posted in anyway to infer that your offers are not quality material.

Since I regularly sell WSOs off page 30 and 40 of the WSO forum, I didn't read it as an insult in any way.

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imseo Banned 15 years ago

The Warrior Forum has been online since 1997 so why was this "clean up" not done long ago? Why wait 13 years?

Just curious.
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- tamilseo 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by imseo
  
  The Warrior Forum has been online since 1997 so why was this "clean up" not done long ago? Why wait 13 years?
  
  Just curious.
  
  8 months before only 3 or 4 backlink building wso run here.almost all of them offered manual link building. But recently lot of backlink building wso's used spam tools like xrumer. xrumer draws lot of anger to forum moderators. may be some asked wso management to take care of it.
  
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- CDarklock 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by imseo
  
  The Warrior Forum has been online since 1997 so why was this "clean up" not done long ago? Why wait 13 years?
  
  I believe rule 7 only dates back about six months, actually.
  
  Just because it was online in 1997 doesn't mean the rules were the same.
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
  
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- tommygadget 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by imseo
  
  The Warrior Forum has been online since 1997 so why was this "clean up" not done long ago? Why wait 13 years?
  
  Just curious.
  
  I'll answer your question since you insist on repeating the question. Because there was no need of a cleanup since 1997, that's why.
  
  TomG.
  
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Bagless

15 years ago

I don't have a product to sell so have only either been on the purchasing side of WSO's. Just out of curiosity, will the forum lose money due to the reduced numbers of WSO threads/bumps?

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Bagless

I don't have a product to sell so have only either been on the purchasing side of WSO's. Just out of curiosity, will the forum lose money due to the reduced numbers of WSO threads/bumps?

I doubt it.

Some folks who haven't run WSOs in years are now saying they'll do it since their offers won't be mixed in with questionable offers. Plus, some people who are currently running backlink offers are likely to start running other approved offers.

There might be a short-lived "lull" (which is really a poor word choice), but it'll pick up again, quickly.

Cheers,
Becky

p.s. Just as a historical note...

The WSO section has never been about the money for Allen. IIRC, the members are the ones who twisted his arm and convinced him to start charging for ads.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Just out of curiosity, will the forum lose money due to the reduced numbers of WSO threads/bumps?

There has clearly been a significant drop in offers being bumped. I think that's misleading as a predictor, as the absolute number of these is pretty small.

The more important factors haven't shown themselves yet. Some of them may never show, as they would have been problems arising from hosting such things. If those are avoided, they won't be obvious, and some may not even be provable, except indirectly.

Paul
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imseo

Banned 15 years ago

About time.

Will there be a "clean up" of threads on all forum boards where there is discussion of black-hat methods or does the "clean up" only apply to the WSO board?

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R Hagel

15 years ago

Originally Posted by imseo

About time.

Will there be a "clean up" of threads on all forum boards where there is discussion of black-hat methods or does the "clean up" only apply to the WSO board?

That question has been asked (and answered) multiple times in this thread... including a version here on the first page.

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imseo

Banned 15 years ago

OK but what about my first question? Why has it taken 13 years for the clean up to begin?

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tamilseo 15 years ago

Originally Posted by imseo

OK but what about my first question? Why has it taken 13 years for the clean up to begin?

because there is no clean up needed. I remember one year before if i run wso it take 3-4 day to reach 3 page.
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Bill Farnham 15 years ago

Originally Posted by imseo

OK but what about my first question? Why has it taken 13 years for the clean up to begin?

imseo
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18
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Well, they may have been waiting for you to show up.

Stranger things have happened, no doubt. :rolleyes:

~Bill
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imseo

Banned 15 years ago

I see, so all these WSO's that encourage violating sites' TOS all appeared in the last year?

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imseo

Banned 15 years ago

There is no rule 7, there are only 6 that I can see.

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CDarklock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by imseo

There is no rule 7, there are only 6 that I can see.

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...12-3-09-a.html
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imseo

Banned 15 years ago

Hard to believe in the 13 years the WSO forum has been online that no one sold anything that didn't break website's TOS.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by imseo

Hard to believe in the 13 years the WSO forum has been online that no one sold anything that didn't break websites TOS.

That didn't used to be a rule.

When they made it a rule, people were supposed to stop doing it.

They didn't.

Hence, cleanup was necessary.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Hard to believe in the 13 years the WSO forum has been online that no one sold anything that didn't break websites TOS.

What's not hard to believe is finding that you have at least 5 separate user IDs. Well... had.

To answer your question, this problem didn't exist in any significant volume until people like you started showing up in droves.

Way back in the early daze, the problem was email spammers using the forum to further their garbage. We cleaned them out, and things were relatively quite in those lines for a long time. Issues with the TOS stuff were handled as we became aware of them. Recently, it got to the point where creeps like you would argue about it, so Allen posted a written rule forbidding it. It had long been against policy, but some people seem to think anything that's not expressly forbidden is allowed.

Now it's just more explicit.

Paul

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imseo

Banned 15 years ago

laughable! lol

PS I have only one user ID.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

What's not hard to believe is finding that you have at least 5 separate user IDs. Well... had.

To answer your question, this problem didn't exist in any significant volume until people like you started showing up in droves.

Way back in the early daze, the problem was email spammers using the forum to further their garbage. We cleaned them out, and things were relatively quite in those lines for a long time. Issues with the TOS stuff were handled as we became aware of them. Recently, it got to the point where creeps like you would argue about it, so Allen posted a written rule forbidding it. It had long been against policy, but some people seem to think anything that's not expressly forbidden is allowed.

Now it's just more explicit.

Paul

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imseo

Banned 15 years ago

I found rule 7..

NO Software Or training material can be sold here that violates the TOS of other services or that teaches people how. We do not like people violating our own TOS and will not allow products to be sold that encourage anyone to violate others'. No exceptions.

Not many specifics, which would help WSO sellers. All the specifics appear to be in the PM sent to the OP, and not published on the forum.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Not many specifics, which would help WSO sellers.

It has all the specifics needed. If you can't bother to understand the TOS of sites you're selling info on, you have no business selling info on them.

Paul

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imseo

Banned 15 years ago

Then publish them on the damn forum moron!

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

It has all the specifics needed. If you can't bother to understand the TOS of sites you're selling info on, you have no business selling info on them.

Paul

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4morereferrals

15 years ago

Originally Posted by imseo

Then publish them on the damn forum moron!

imseo = epic fail

Buhhhhhh Byeeee

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imseo Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by 4morereferrals

imseo = epic fail

Buhhhhhh Byeeee

Keep an eye on the [snip] website..

P.S you're the biggest creep on this forum Myers
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

imseo = epic fail

Buhhhhhh Byeeee

FYI, calling me a moron is not enough to get anyone banned. "Be nice to Paul" is not one of the rules. Having 5 user accounts is enough, as is coming back after being permanently banned for serious violations.

He tried again this evening. If he continues, he's likely to need to go broadband shopping again.

Paul

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Ken Strong

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Having 5 user accounts is enough, as is coming back after being permanently banned for serious violations.

He tried again this evening. If he continues, he's likely to need to go broadband shopping again.

Some people are in pathetic need of lives.

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Emily Meeks

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

FYI, calling me a moron is not enough to get anyone banned. "Be nice to Paul" is not one of the rules. Having 5 user accounts is enough, as is coming back after being permanently banned for serious violations.

He tried again this evening. If he continues, he's likely to need to go broadband shopping again.

Paul

If only he put all that energy into something productive...

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Mountainbird 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

... If he continues, he's likely to need to go broadband shopping again.

Hmmm... Are you able to cease his contract with his ISP?
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Hmmm... Are you able to cease his contract with his ISP?
  
  Not directly, of course, but many ISPs will terminate a customer's account for continued or excessive harassment. That's how he got bounced from a previous provider.
  
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Then publish them on the damn forum moron!

Perhaps a bit of reading comprehension is needed.

If you're selling products or services that involve another site, say Facebook, you are supposed to read and abide by the TOS of that site. If your product or service involves breaking the TOS of those sites, you're not allowed to sell it here.

Not especially complex.

There were WF affiliates who spammed the forum all over way back when. Getting rid of the spammers was one of the reasons Allen got me in as a mod back then.

Paul

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

By the way, folks, you've just witnessed the re-emergence of my boy, Julian, or someone using the same ISP and doing a credible impersonation of him.

Julian is annoyed with me. Seems he got booted off his previous ISP when I reported the death threats and anti-American, anti-Islamic and racist posts he made here when he got caught trolling for the umpteenth time.

If it's him, he's polished up his grammar a bit. Learned how to use apostrophes better, for one thing.

Paul

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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Julian is annoyed with me. Seems he got booted off his previous ISP when I reported the death threats and anti-American, anti-Islamic and racist posts he made here when he got caught trolling for the umpteenth time.

Paul

I've grabbed the pitchfork.... :-)

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Joseph Then

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Seems he got booted off his previous ISP when I reported the death threats and anti-American, anti-Islamic and racist posts he made here when he got caught trolling for the umpteenth time.

I'm still trying to figure out how can he be anti-American & anti-Islamic at the same time?

Must be a moron (or a full-grown troll!) to be able to do so.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Joseph,

I'm still trying to figure out how can he be anti-American & anti-Islamic at the same time?

Xenophobe. Wouldn't be the only one.

It's more likely he was just trying to get all of his posts deleted before his ISP could get a chance to see the death threats and other abuse, though. Julian isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer...

Simon,

I've grabbed the pitchfork.... :-)

[chuckle] He's a prime candidate for invocation of the Angry Villager rule.

Paul
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- Jack Duncan 15 years ago
  
  @yousefgreat,
  
  Here's one thing we can all agree on with a smile...
  
  Paul Myers is no "respecter of persons", and that is quite refreshing.
  
  Doesn't matter if you've just posted your first WSO, or spend $2,000+ a month in WSO bumps...he's tried to make it an even playing field for everyone.
  
  Sure, I was a little surprised to see his PM for one of my products, given the fact that it specifically spells out in the first 3 pages to the user not to violate the TOS of any sites (and to submit everything by hand)...
  
  But at the end of the day, nobody (and I mean nobody) can question the fact that the playing field is level here.
  
  And even if you are 100% sure that your product doesn't violate Rule #7, there isn't enough time in the day for the mods to carefully scrutinize each one.
  
  Kinda reminds me of a Google Ad that I just wrote that was rejected.
  
  I just tried to put the title of my product in the ad...but because the product name contains the word "sniper", they disapproved my ad on the grounds of "promotes violence"
  
  But...creative minds will find a solution.
  
  I just went ahead and started a Google content network Banner campaign, knowing that a real live reviewer would see the ad, and approve it.
  
  Been pretty nice actually, cost per click went down dramatically to 4 cents!
  
  Just goes to show that every setback can be turned into a stepping stone.
  
  All the best,
  Jack Duncan
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Jack,
  
  But at the end of the day, nobody (and I mean nobody) can question the fact that the playing field is level here.
  
  Sure they can. They do question it, regularly.
  
  There are all sorts of discussions floating around about various forms of bias by the mods here, including some fairly tin-foil worthy stuff about groups of "favored people." Then there are the folks who claim that the enforcement is designed to give the mods control of the WSO market for some approach or other.
  
  And, of course, the folks who swear that this is going to kill the forum, or at least the WSO section. We heard the same comments when we kicked the spammers out, and any number of other times since.
  
  Some of this conspiracy stuff is really creative. It's fun reading, and a good reminder just how wrong a person can be and still be absolutely certain they're right.
  
  Paul
  
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Cezar R Abadiano

15 years ago

Why do people become belligerent when they're caught doing something wrong or have been called out for doing something wrong?

Instead of learning the first time they have to be a moron and try to repeat the same thing again . . . and again . . . and again.

If they sat down and talked about it in a civil manner everything would have been fine and they would continue on but instead to resort to threats and such is just plain dumb.

Guess they don't fear the wrath of the multitude.

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Joe Benjamin

15 years ago

Rule #1 In Business: NEVER, EVER allow ONE source of
income be the ONLY income you make.

I don't care how good a method or strategy or opportunity
is, if it's not in YOUR control, your at risk.

I LOVE this forum, and vouch for the decision, but anyone
who has been doing it for a living or as their only method
of making money...is like someone totally relying on the WSO
section to make their money.

It's just not the smartest thing to do and, just goes to show
how quickly something like a link building service can backfire
on you without notice. You don't expect something like it to
happen, and it does. It's out of your control. Like the Google
Slap. It's THEIR business, you work IN it...no control, so you
adjust as you go.

P.S. This is not an attack on the forum, but I know im not the
only person trying to help people who were caught in this
situation who DID rely on this service as a source of reliable
income.

Thanks
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Sonomacats 15 years ago

Well, I'm thrilled this is happening. The BH and spam get to be a bit much and sometimes makes me really cranky. Of course, that could also be because I've been ordered to stay away from caffeine, too

Interestingly, there was post made this week by Jay Stockwell (One of our sites was hacked...) along these same lines which is well worth reading.

I also just finished reading a book called The Future of Reputation by Daniel Solove which I highly recommend. Fascinating read. And his discussion of the "norm" and enforcing the norm came to mind as I was reading this thread.

I know others have said this in this thread, but I would like to add my voice to that group. This is Allen's forum. And because it is, he gets to make the decisions about what goes on here. Paul is one of the good guys and is one of the moderators. That also gives him a lot of power to make decisions for the good of the forum.

If you go over to someone's house for dinner, that does not give you permission to pee on their carpet or break their dishes or let the cat out of the house when they have asked you not to do that.

In this case, we are the guests of this forum. We need to abide by the rules of this house, just as we would the house of a friend. In the case of a forum, it's even more important because things can get out of hand so quickly. I've seen any number of spammers post garbage posts here. If it weren't for the moderators, this soon would be an internet crack house instead of a great place to hang out.

When I first joined, I made an inadvertent goof in an attempt to be helpful. When it was pointed out to me, I apologized and didn't do it again. More importantly, I made sure I knew and understood the rules before posting again. That's the polite thing to do.

Enforcing the rules also keeps the Warrior Forum an awesome place with tons of great information and good people. I don't always participate because I don't always having something to add to the discussion, but I always learn a lot. And at some point, I'm able to pass that on. That's a valuable resource and it's getting harder and harder to find that online any more. Let's not trash that for some dubious BH tactic that might make us a few extra dollars. In the end, those few dollars aren't worth it.
If you don't like the rules of the house, start your own forum where you can have everything the way YOU want it to be.
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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Perhaps this has been mentioned, but here's a rule change I would love to see.

NO MORE VAGUE WSO'S ALLOWED

Yesterday I purchased a WSO, there was nothing inherently wrong with it,
but it was yet again, another rehashed simple PDF on profiting from guru
launches.

Nothing new or unique, nothing that hasn't been in multiple WSO's already.

Sign up to jvnotify pro, grab a keyword matched domain, slap some
content up, make a youtube video, back link the both of them,
get in the SERPS - make some commission.

I didn't ask for a refund, honestly I can't be bothered , mainly because
there was nothing wrong as such with the product, but my issue is this.

There was no indication at all in the WSO that this was the method
being taught, none, had it been, I would never have purchased it and
in the real world, if you went into the business department of a book
shop and books were labelled in the same way WSO's are, the shop
would go bust in a week.

What I would like to see is a rule put in place that authors of WSO's
must at least at the top of the page, clearly denote the basic concept
the WSO is about.

So for example.

Promoting Guru Launches.
Article writing .
Offline Client Generation.
PPC to Squeeze Page Traffic Generation.
SEO Services.

And so on.

We have plenty of Warriors who are crystal clear on what they are
selling, I would like to see everybody have to do the same, if the WSO
is any good it will sell on it's own merits, not on being able to rehash
the same stuff time and time again and make the WSO's so vague
you think it's something entirely different.

I'm not interested in the "you should ask questions beforehand" BS,
it's like trying to dial in on the genetic make up of a cell, you have to get into
some long winded process of elimination to nail down what the heck
they are selling, why should folks have to go into Holmes mode to
try and decipher a WSO , the requirement should fall with the WSO
seller to be clear and upfront about what it is they are selling,
nobody is asking for any internal content on their technique , simply
a basic TITLE explaining what the WSO is going to go into, then
more pertinent questions can be asked if needed, if not at least you
have a solid idea of whether it's something you do or don't already know
about .

The WSO section should not be built on the foundation of caveat emptor.

The author of the WSO has had a few good WSO's before, he's
reasonably well known, he had some other folks in the thread
who also had aged usernames with thanks, so no alarm bells
went up, and as I said, there's nothing wrong with his product,
it simply wasn't something I was interested in as I already know
that technique.

That's my vote for a WSO rule change, it may disadvantage some WSO
sellers but only those making parrot products, and it will sure as hell
be of benefit to the buyers.

/mini rant.

Thanks
1 reply

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LB

15 years ago

Originally Posted by SimonHarrison

Perhaps this has been mentioned, but here's a rule change I would love to see.

NO MORE VAGUE WSO'S ALLOWED

Yesterday I purchased a WSO, there was nothing inherently wrong with it,
but it was yet again, another rehashed simple PDF on profiting from guru
launches.

Nothing new or unique, nothing that hasn't been in multiple WSO's already.

Sign up to jvnotify pro, grab a keyword matched domain, slap some
content up, make a youtube video, back link the both of them,
get in the SERPS - make some commission.

I didn't ask for a refund, honestly I can't be bothered , mainly because
there was nothing wrong as such with the product, but my issue is this.

There was no indication at all in the WSO that this was the method
being taught, none, had it been, I would never have purchased it and
in the real world, if you went into the business department of a book
shop and books were labelled in the same way WSO's are, the shop
would go bust in a week.

What I would like to see is a rule put in place that authors of WSO's
must at least at the top of the page, clearly denote the basic concept
the WSO is about.

So for example.

Promoting Guru Launches.
Article writing .
Offline Client Generation.
PPC to Squeeze Page Traffic Generation.
SEO Services.

And so on.

We have plenty of Warriors who are crystal clear on what they are
selling, I would like to see everybody have to do the same, if the WSO
is any good it will sell on it's own merits, not on being able to rehash
the same stuff time and time again and make the WSO's so vague
you think it's something entirely different.

That's my vote for a WSO rule change, it may disadvantage some WSO
sellers but only those making parrot products, and it will sure as hell
be of benefit to the buyers.

/mini rant.

If a WSO is a vague I don't even give it a second glance. I appreciate what you're saying but the labels people give stuff in WSOs is laughable anyway.

Placing banner ads on blogs is "media buying".
Teaching people how to run their own WSOs (seriously) is "coaching".
Spamming the hell out of youtube with stolen content makes you a "video producer".

It's completely out of control but is also apparently still selling well and most people don't question it. I've pretty much stopped even going to the WSO forum sadly.

Thanks
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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Originally Posted by LB

If a WSO is a vague I don't even give it a second glance. I appreciate what you're saying but the labels people give stuff in WSOs is laughable anyway.

Placing banner ads on blogs is "media buying".
Teaching people how to run their own WSOs (seriously) is "coaching".
Spamming the hell out of youtube with stolen content makes you a "video producer".

Indeed, that's why I'm stating it must be clearly defined. The recent changes
in the WSO section prove the mods can make some pretty dramatic clean ups
and police it very well. After a short period of misleading TITLES leading to WSO's
being removed, you can bet your pants, things would tidy up fast, just like
the last batch of rules proved, 95% of the stuff not allowed dissapeared , fast.

It's completely out of control but is also apparently still selling well and most people don't question it.

Yeah, agreed again but I am questioning it and I think it's worth questioning.

I've pretty much stopped even going to the WSO forum sadly.

Case in point LB, the cleaner that place is the better it is for the WSO sellers
promoting quality content and the more sales the good WSO's will make
because people will come back to a bookshop where the books are clearly marked.

This seems to me one of those things where folks can argue over various minutia
and so on, and ultimatly the powers that be would need to employ their own
version which is manageable and enforcable , but I do think every single WSO
at the very top of the post, should have to have a clear definition.

Heck if need be , well thought out catagories could be made which a WSO seller
had to select from a drop down , that would be a basic start that would eliminate
the total vagueness and it could go from there.

Look at the really big names on this forum, look at their WSO's and their sigs
they are crystal clear on what they are selling, they don't need to be vague
because what they are selling sells on it's own merits, not on making things
as vague as possible to cover up another rehash product.

Thanks
2 replies

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TimG

15 years ago

Simon,
I agree with you 100% on all of your comments (didn't quote them because there is to much -

).

I'm still finding some great and valuable information in the WSOs I purchase but it is frustrating in some cases trying to figure out what a WSO is about but perhaps more frustrating is the needless titles that promote making thousands in a short amount of time.

Sometimes I feel like the WSOs are being created by millionaires based on what they promise. Unfortunately that is not the case and it can be disheartening for folks new to this business.

Respectfully,
Tim

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Simon,

My suggested solution to this challenge is simple: If it's vague, don't buy it. Especially if it makes income claims of any kind.

There are too many processes and techniques that use multiple vectors for this to work, even ignoring the fact that people would argue left and right about classifications, and play little games to weasel past accurate labeling.

We can act on deceptive labeling. The vague stuff is often too subjective for consistency in moderating. That needs to be enforced by the customers. And, in many of the WSO threads I've seen, it is.

Paul

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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Simon,

My suggested solution to this challenge is simple: If it's vague, don't buy it. Especially if it makes income claims of any kind.

There are too many processes and techniques that use multiple vectors for this to work, even ignoring the fact that people would argue left and right about classifications, and play little games to weasel past accurate labeling.

We can act on deceptive labeling. The vague stuff is often too subjective for consistency in moderating. That needs to be enforced by the customers. And, in many of the WSO threads I've seen, it is.

Paul

Paul, I figured this might be the response and the reasons why,
I know "vagues" hard to work with

Deceptive labelling, not so much an issue, I think those that are looking
to massage sales do it with what they don't say, not what they do.

What we have now there in regards labelling of WSO's is basically
the WWW, if we couldn't have categories, and I understand the issues
that surround that , then at least some ruling which stipulated WSO
must be clearly marked as to what they contain. The fact is that
many simply are not.

I mentioned this before but all the big trusted players on here are
clear about what their WSO does, they don't give away the technique
but they do at least say , look, this is about getting offline clients, or
this is about PPC, or this about link wheels, or this is about press releases
and so on, I think most would be happy if a clear description placed
at the top of each WSO was made law.

That's ultimately far easier than catagorization and could to some degree
be warrior moderated, ie if the basic description is not presented as the
first thing on the page, it can be flagged and the WSO seller forced
to be clear or be removed.

I'm not saying it's perfect, the current swathe of WSO clear up isn't ,
there's grey areas abound, we have a bazzilion WSO where part of the
methods of ranking all are focussed around the exact WSO's that
are banned, ie link wheels etc, they simply arn't the primary focus of the
WSO.

Just a clear description enforced for each WSO would be a massive
step in the right direction and may well be ultimately a far better
solution for the reasons you stipulated.

I know customers can complain but often the problem I've found is
not that the WSO is bad, it's just simply something I already know
so it's just frustrating that we don't have things marked more clearly.

Thanks
1 reply

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Simon,

I'm not saying it's perfect, the current swathe of WSO clear up isn't , there's grey areas abound, we have a bazzilion WSO where part of the methods of ranking all are focussed around the exact WSO's that are banned, ie link wheels etc, they simply arn't the primary focus of the WSO.

You may be missing the precise point of the rule, or we may be missing some WSOs that break it. Probably some of both are going on.

The rule has nothing to do with what Google thinks or does. If the processes used in the WSO don't break the rules of the sites they're used on, that's it. End of point. That Google may not like them is irrelevant to me. I am only concerned with the sites which are directly used.

If a WSO uses a site in ways the site doesn't allow, or which are abusive to that site, it will be warned, stopped or deleted, depending on the situation. But we have to know about it for that to happen. When people report them, we check on that and act if appropriate.

We knew people would hide those techniques behind other stuff when we started this. We count on the members to let us know when that happens. It's impossible to avoid 100% otherwise, without having someone VERY knowledgeable reading and closely examining every single offer made in the forum.

Your suggestion is one of those that sounds great, and it would be if we were dealing with people who were all up front in the first place. But it's also one of those that won't work in application, without a huge amount of damage to the wrong kinds of people.

This is one of those things where the market has to apply the pressure. It can't be a top-down decision.

Fortunately, it's something that would be easy to make part of the culture of the group. Just get a few people asking for specifics when they see the vague stuff. It's already common. It would take very little for it to become the rule rather than the exception.

Paul

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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Your suggestion is one of those that sounds great, and it would be if we were dealing with people who were all up front in the first place. But it's also one of those that won't work in application, without a huge amount of damage to the wrong kinds of people.

This is one of those things where the market has to apply the pressure. It can't be a top-down decision.

Paul

Fair enough, I'm not discounting the issues that make it a royal
pain, nor the obvious fact that it would bring additional workload.

A rule saying you must label the WSO as the first thing on the page
seems like it would at least force WSO owners to generate a
description that would then make it easier for members to have
something to go on and therefore make it easier to do their part
and as you say utilize the "ground up" approach.

That said, it's not me that would have to police it so that probably
goes a long way towards why it seems like a bleeding great idea to me :-).

Thanks
1 reply

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sbucciarel

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by SimonHarrison

Fair enough, I'm not discounting the issues that make it a royal
pain, nor the obvious fact that it would bring additional workload.

A rule saying you must label the WSO as the first thing on the page
seems like it would at least force WSO owners to generate a
description that would then make it easier for members to have
something to go on and therefore make it easier to do their part
and as you say utilize the "ground up" approach.

That said, it's not me that would have to police it so that probably
goes a long way towards why it seems like a bleeding great idea to me :-).

Let's say you go to a store and there's a shelf with plain boxes on it and all it says on it is "Secret Method". Are you going to buy it?

Same thing applies with WSOs. Buyers need to take some responsibility for buying crap when the sales pitch either sounds way too good to be true, does not define what is being offered, or is vague or deceptive in any other way.

The way I look at it is if it is vague, there's probably a reason. If they told you what was included, you wouldn't buy it.

[ 3 ] Thanks
1 reply

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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Same thing applies with WSOs. Buyers need to take some responsibility for buying crap when the sales pitch either sounds way too good to be true, does not define what is being offered, or is vague or deceptive in any other way.

Partially agree, however I don't agree the WSO section should be one huge
caveat emptor, that's not in keeping with the general ethos here.

If I went to a store, the author was there in the shop, well known, had
many other shoppers commenting on how they liked his product, and the
store had a reputation for being a quality store, the book had positive reviews,
and in terms of a comparison, gave far more details than "secret method" and
if the book was cheap enough, yeah sure, I might give it a punt if I was bored
which is what I did.

As I also stated earlier , which I guess you missed, the WSO was not crap. An
important point as it relates to your response. You're partially arguing at entirely
cross purposes.

It also didn't sound to good to be true or indeed any of the other paramaters
you mentioned, I detailed this in a previous post which I guess you didn't read
.

It was a perfectly good guide for the topic it covered. I also stated clearly the
source was a well known Warrior, with post count, duration and thanks . It was
however vague, I was a little bored and the feedback was fine and so on, it
turned out however to simply be on a topic I already knew in full. Most of your
points arn't of relevance. This isn't about the WSO being poor, crap, a scam
or otherwise, purely vague and vague means it's something you could already
know.

Scam WSO's etc are something else entirely, my take was that a defined
description would be beneficial.

It's pretty easy to play it's the buyers fault, but that misses the point, the WF
is about providing a high quality information point and more , when products
are put on sale here it gives them more legitimacy than would on other
forums I could mention.

It may well be the buyers "fault", technically speaking, after all I pushed
the "buy" button so I'm to blame ultimately but my perspective was about
asking questions to see if anything could be improved to ensure that
vagueness in WSO's was replaced with a little clarity, making it better
for sellers and buyers alike. Paul's made his point that good idea or not
he feels it's just unworkable, so it's clearly not an option and moot at
this point.

I've no interest in going around in circles on it, it was an idea I thought could
help improve clarity in WSO's but it's not viable, I've accepted that, the
"it's the buyers fault" game doesn't really being any benefit or a solution,
so I'm not fussed about discussing it as I think it just empowers WSO sellers
take even more advantage.

Thanks
1 reply

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sbucciarel

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by SimonHarrison

It's pretty easy to play it's the buyers fault, but that misses the point, the WF is about providing a high quality information point and more , when products are put on sale here it gives them more legitimacy than would on other forums I could mention.

It may well be the buyers "fault", technically speaking, after all I pushed
the "buy" button so I'm to blame ultimately but my perspective was about
asking questions to see if anything could be improved to ensure that
vagueness in WSO's was replaced with a little clarity, making it better
for sellers and buyers alike. Paul's made his point that good idea or not
he feels it's just unworkable, so it's clearly not an option and moot at
this point.

That, IMO is the nature of the products being sold here and that was my point. You are buying "secret methods" and if there was an accurate description of what you were buying, it wouldn't be a secret anymore and there would be no need to buy it.

Personally, I don't buy these types of products. As an example, if I wanted to learn about PPC, I would buy a comprehensive course on PPC ... not the "Secret Ninja PPC Glow in the Dark Stealth Bomb" method that didn't clearly define what was in the course. That's my point.

Thanks
1 reply

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CDarklock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

not the "Secret Ninja PPC Glow in the Dark Stealth Bomb" method

whois glowinthedarkmarketing.com

Dammit. Taken.
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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Simon,You may be missing the precise point of the rule, or we may be missing some WSOs that break it. Probably some of both are going on.

Paul

hats' sorta what I was referring to, a huge number of WSO's don't
focus on SEO, or any of the stuff that pees you off but ultimately
many do indeed advise or explain in brief how to use automated tools
that break site TOS in order to speed things up like captua filling etc,
mass bookmarking and so on.

This is one we approach from a different perspective, your focus
is on ensuring there's no comeback for the WF for allowing tutorials
on breaking TOS, I won't get any love for the following statement but
If I want to send my content out to article databases or 2.0 etc
I'm happy to let SENUKE or some other tool, fill in a couple of words
rather than me sit there and do it. Heck, half the time I look at those
dam Captuas and can't fill the dam thing in myself anyway.

I was really making the point that a huge number of very good WSO's
which offer a totally WH technique also ultimately rely on you getting
traffic to the technique and do often spend some time on explaining
how to do that via short cut TOS breaking methods.

Ultimately I could pick out 50 WSO's live right now and I would bet
the farm, in some small way they would have an element in them
which if it was the primary focus of the WSO would be frowned upon.

It's also worth noting that many of the big guru types use these
techniques in major products which get major air time on the WF
as well.

Just making the point we have grey areas kicking around in everything.

Thanks
1 reply

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Simon,

As I've said, the labeling thing can not be properly enforced by moderators. It is not possible, and any serious attempt at it would do much more harm than good.

I've also said that using automated systems for things like article submission is fine. That said, any WSO that even mentions using SENuke or Xrumer gets the axe.

Paul

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Midas3 Consulting

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Simon,

I've also said that using automated systems for things like article submission is fine. That said, any WSO that even mentions using SENuke or Xrumer gets the axe.

Paul

Paul, what's the element in SENUKE that puts it under the axe as opposed
to another article submitter, is it purely the CAPTUA solving element?

Xrumer, as far as I understand just spams forums with craplinks so the reasoning
behind that one is crystal.

Thanks

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WareTime 15 years ago

Awesome!!!

No more "hey do so and so's back link packets work" posts. That rocks. Thank you Paul.
- Thanks
- 1 reply
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- Tom Goodwin 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by WareTime
  
  Awesome!!!
  
  No more "hey do so and so's back link packets work" posts. That rocks. Thank you Paul.
  
  Nope, instead people will be asking whether all of these outrageous claims WSOs work (new FTC rules anyone?:rolleyes.
  
  Here is just a few from the first page of the WSOs:
  
  "...How I Make Over $16,479.20 Every Single Month"
  
  "HOW I MADE $57,538.60 "
  
  "How To Make $1,500 In Less than 7 Minutes"
  
  " $63,045/month Warrior Reveals..."
  
  Even Jeff Paul's 2am infomercials aren't as outlandish as some of these. It would seem that any "clean up" of the WSO section should deal with these types of claims, as those are the ones that could potentially get a site in trouble with the law.
  
  Thanks
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Tom,
  
  Nope, instead people will be asking whether all of these outrageous claims WSOs work (new FTC rules anyone?).
  
  My advice to the members has always been to simply not buy any WSO that makes or implies income promises.
  
  This whole process has been interesting. I'm still getting complaints about the removals, despite the fact that the policy was posted last year, and we've been enforcing it loudly for months.
  
  Part of that was anticipated. We've started allowing link offers for systems where the poster owns all the sites to which they're posted. I consider those to be like posting to article directories. The owner is making the offer, so no terms of service violations are involved.
  
  As expected, that opened the door for people to debate over other types of sites. And we have some people trying to do an end run with freebies that promote the darker side of things without mentioning it in their copy. I appreciate the fact that someone pointed that out.
  
  There will always be some people who don't read the rules, or who try to work around them. That's just part of running any forum. This stuff is so far down in the noise at this point that it's almost gone, though. It seems like we're reaching the maintenance stage.
  
  Paul
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
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rodmac87

15 years ago

It helps tp remain consistent with the rules.

Thanks

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Paul Buckley

15 years ago

I think that New Years day 2006 was the last time I posted a WSO. The quality of the WSO forum offerings have become such crap that I refuse to be associated with it. It reminded me of the old song:

'Twas an evening in October, I'll confess I wasn't sober,
I was carting home a load with manly pride,
When my feet began to stutter and I fell into the gutter,
And a pig came up and lay down by my side.
Then I lay there in the gutter and my heart was all a-flutter,
Till a lady, passing by, did chance to say:
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses,"
Then the pig got up and slowly walked away."

So, like the pig that I am, I looked for better company with which to be associated.

Now that Allen and Paul have elected to take on the thankless task of cleaning up the WSO forum, I may have an offering or two to make in the spirit of the old WF.

Thanks

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