Internet Marketing: a.k.a. The Blame Game

14 years ago

It is like this with everything in life though isn't it? Getting in shape, quitting bad habits, loosing weight, etc. etc.

It is about the person, not the method. You either want to do it or you don't and if you want to, then get it done...PERIOD!

"Excuses are the nails used to build a house of failure." ~Don Wilder and Bill Rechin

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KarlWarren 14 years ago

Originally Posted by djbventures

"Excuses are the nails used to build a house of failure." ~Don Wilder and Bill Rechin

I like that quote.
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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Bob is an idiot. Bob quit his job with no real plan, little research, no backup funds. Many people believe everything they read simply because it says what they want to hear.

Is it right to target people who aren't the brightest pennies in the pot? No. Not in my opinion, but the fact is, it will continue so it's up to the consumer to be dumb or be smart.

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Is it right to target people who aren't the brightest pennies in the pot?

Whether you target them or not, some proportion of your customers will simply not be smart enough to use your product.
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- sbucciarel Banned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  Whether you target them or not, some proportion of your customers will simply not be smart enough to use your product.
  
  That's absolutely true, but I don't tell them they will make thousands of dollars in a couple of days if they do buy my product.
  
  When someone buys a website from me, I pretty much tell them it's a website. Give them the traffic and revenue stats and any other relevant info. The rest is up to them, but I do have customers who buy a blog from me for $17 and then ask me how to blog.
  
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JackPowers

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Bob is an idiot. Bob quit his job with no real plan, little research, no backup funds. Many people believe everything they read simply because it says what they want to hear.

Is it right to target people who aren't the brightest pennies in the pot? No. Not in my opinion, but the fact is, it will continue so it's up to the consumer to be dumb or be smart.

Harsh, but true.

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Joe Mobley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Bob is an idiot. Bob quit his job with no real plan, little research, no backup funds. Many people believe everything they read simply because it says what they want to hear.

Bingo! That's why Bob is at fault.

It has nothing to do with Internet Marketing. I has nothing to do with buying something that doesn't work.

Bob voluntarily left his only/primary source of income without having another source in place.

Done!

Joe

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good2go4

14 years ago

I imagine Bob felt really inspired until he got home and faced his reality - the power of just walking away from a job must have been huge; but the bottom line is he was drawn to the hype of the internet just like lonely teenagers are drawn to a cult - they can't help it even when commonsense is telling them everything they are doing is wrong.

I am all for personal accountability myself - it is Bob's fault, because Bob quit his job and he didn't do enough research before he dived on in. I get emails every day telling me I have won millions of euros or pounds in a lottery - I don't write to my clients and tell them I don't want to write for them anymore because even though the old grey cells might be getting a wee bit rusty, I am sure I would have remembered buying a lottery ticket in a European or British Lottery, especially seeing as I am in NZ. No I reply to the email asking them what i can do to collect the money and how quickly it will come and then after five seconds of dreaming I go back to what i do - writing for others and creating my own products, lol. Man but that 5 second dream can be enticing sometimes

Waiting for a reply to my email(s)
Lisa

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King Shiloh

Banned 14 years ago

Who is to blame?

I blame those that invented the internet and e-commerce thereby giving some lazy bones a reason to quit their job and start chasing shadows.

This is just one of the consequences of misdirection, impulse buying, laziness, ignorance...I can go on and on.

I'm not sorry for anyone. I'm sorry for myself because I'm not sure whether this same story may be told of me someday but I will guard against it now. Why?

It is better to learn from someone else's experience, especially if it is an ugly one.

This story calls for sober reflection.

I think I have learned a lesson or two.

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cypherslock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by King Shiloh

Who is to blame?

I blame those that invented the internet and e-commerce thereby giving some lazy bones a reason to quit their job and start chasing shadows.

This is just one of the consequences of misdirection, impulse buying, laziness, ignorance...I can go on and on.

I'm not sorry for anyone. I'm sorry for myself because I'm not sure whether this same story may be told of me someday but I will guard against it now. Why?

It is better to learn from someone else's experience, especially if it is an ugly one.

This story calls for sober reflection.

I think I have learned a lesson or two.

Actually, I wouldn't blame those that invented the Internet...If they didn't we all wouldn't be able to do what we love.

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Steven Wagenheim 14 years ago

Side note:

Karl, thanks for the inspiration for a great article. Oh, and I even gave you
a plug in it so don't be surprised if you get some more people banging on
your door for graphics work.

Anyway, carry on folks...love this thread...LOVE IT!
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King Shiloh Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by cypherslock

Actually, I wouldn't blame those that invented the Internet...If they didn't we all wouldn't be able to do what we love.

Do we really LOVE this whole IM thing. Sleep late...wake up early...stay glued to the monitor?

Anyway, I just wanted to console Bob and at the same time offer him a life-line to make amends.
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cashcow

14 years ago

People need to take responsibility for themselves ... until they do they will never succeed at {business|weight loss|whatever}.

If you keep blaming the other guy you will always be in the "poor me it's not my fault" mindset instead of the "I'm gonna do whatever it takes to make this work" mindset.

Of course, as Suzanne said above you do need to have a plan in order to succeed too!

But, I don't think it's wrong to buy courses etc... IF they fit into your plan and you get something from them (oh, and if you have the money to invest). I've bought a TON of stuff in my time - some stuffed helped me make money, some not so much. But the thing is that I never really believed the hype so I didn't really think that I could make a billion dollars overnight with some ebook, therefore I acted accordingly and did not quit my job on the first day!

Lee

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Shaun OReilly

14 years ago

The reality is that we don't live in a black and white world
where it's either 100% Bob's fault or 100% the vendor's
fault.

The fact of the matter is that it's nearly all Bob's fault but
the vendor can't escape partial responsibility for supplying
the over-hyped product in the first place.

As a product and service provider, I accept my responsibilities
to myself as well as for my role in improving the live's of my
prospects and customers.

I choose to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

And blame doesn't work too well either and remember that
when you point the finger, 3 are always pointing back at you!

If Bob wants to improve his life seriously, he needs to take a
look in the mirror for the source of his problem and the source
of the solution.

But let's not ignore the part played by hype-laden, ethically
challenged sellers either. If they didn't supply the crap, he
couldn't buy it either and he'd more likely get access to a
product that did meet his real needs.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

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KarlWarren 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly

And blame doesn't work too well either and remember that when you point the finger, 3 are always pointing back at you!

I said the VERY same thing to someone on Skype no less than 1 hour ago
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Robert Puddy

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly

But lets not ignore the part played by hype-laden, ethically
challenged sellers either. If they didn't supply the crap, he
couldn't buy it either and he'd more likely get access to a
product that did meet his real needs.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

You have a lot of strong views...which usually point the finger at marketers in general for just doing there job

I would like to look at some of your sites online so i can get a better grasp at where your coming from.

Care to give me a link please

no evil intent here just a desire to learn something about another warrior, that can put your posts into context

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Shaun OReilly

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

You have a lot of strong views...which usually point the finger at marketers in general for just doing there job

So, what is the job of a marketer?

I assume that you don't think that the job of a marketer
is to supply products and services that are full of hype,
vacuous promises that offer no real value to the customer.

My job as a marketer is to find out what people want and
need (these are two distinctly different things) and then
go to work to see if I can deliver it.

My job as an ethical marketer is to decide if I can really
give the customer what they want and need.

If I can, I'll put my time, money and effort into supplying
it.

If I can't, I choose not to be a part of the deal.

(There's no shortage of ethically-challenged marketers
who will sell people a pipe dream knowing that they'll not
be able to deliver on their promises).

It's a question of where you want to place your ethical
fence.

I know where my boundaries are.

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

I would like to look at some of your sites online so i can get a better grasp at where your coming from.

Care to give me a link please

no evil intent here just a desire to learn something about another warrior, that can put your posts into context

If I want anyone to see the links to my niche sites I'll
put them into my signature file.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

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windfinder

14 years ago

I miss Bobs wife ... in the options.

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KarlWarren 14 years ago

Originally Posted by windfinder

I miss Bobs wife ... in the options.

I bet Bob does too
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- snapcontent 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by KarlWarren
  
  I bet Bob does too
  
  :-) :-)
  
  I know what you are saying Karl, and couldn't agree more. Just recently, we had someone sign up for the free trial. He didn't do anything with it in the 5 day free trial period, then immediately complained when he found out that the trial had expired (it's clearly explained, BTW. Perhaps he went on a long weekend or something).
  
  We manually re-enabled it for him, and he completed the subscription process, and then... didn't do anything with it for 3 days. So he's got 2 days left to try it.
  
  He finally uploads the plugin to his single blog, and immediately starts complaining that there are no posts. We can see posts in the logs, and when we visit his site, lo and behold, the first two posts are from Snapcontent. He then bombards support with newbie questions, all of which are covered in the manual, and FAQs, and get very upset when he doesn't get an 8 minute support turnaround time.
  
  To cut a long story short, he becomes abusive to the poor support staff (reducing one girl to tears), at which point the head of support politely informs him that perhaps this isn't the right system for him.
  
  At 3 AM, he fills the support system with invective, rants and swearing, in CAPSLOCK, of course, and when there is no response within a ten minute period starts threatening to 'expose this scam' with 'the better business bureau', reveal how we stole content from article directories etc etc.
  
  We cancelled his account and refunded him, because this is obviously some kind of mental condition developing, and frankly, we didn't want to contribute to the aneurism he was brewing up.
  
  Long story short, the point is that this person wasn't prepared to do ANYTHING except click the 'get rich quick' button. He wouldn't read the manual, he wouldn't read up on autoblogging in general, he wouldn't even take the time to read and understand the well written answers to his newbie questions from long suffering support. He obviously isn't making any money online, and the fault is everyone else's not him. Rather than try and address this faulty worldview, he'd rather blame the vendor, and waste precious time writing 1000 word support ticket rants and threats.
  
  It's depressing, actually, because it actually ISN'T that hard to make money online, as long as you are prepared to take the time and LEARN how to do it.
  
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pavionjsl

14 years ago

I think it is a clear example of not enough government programs to help stop people failing when they decide to do something different.

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Steven Wagenheim 14 years ago

Karl, what you've described is just a microcosm of life.

For those who don't get what I mean...check

the lottery lines.
the casinos
the racetracks
the OTB locations
online gambling sites
publishers clearing house entries

And the list goes on and on.

"A dollar and a dream" is probably one of the most famous sayings (at
least in this neck of the woods) in the world.

Nobody REALLY wants to work, not really.

Trust me, if somebody knocked on my door right now and said, "Here you
go, $10 billion dollars for you to do with whatever you want" do you think
I'd even be here typing this right now?

I'd go live the life that I want to live. And it isn't selling digital info products
online.

Yeah, I'm good at it. But I could think of a lot of things (my music for one)
that I'd rather be doing.

Why do you think I semi retired for a year?

Yeah, it got old and I got a little bored, which showed me that on some
level I actually enjoy my work. But make no mistake about it, if I didn't
need even just a little money (which is what it's essentially come down to)
I'd be doing something else, even if it was putting up this mega site for
songwriters to submit their music to.

And as long as people have that dream, that desire to not have to go to
a dirty J.O.B., they're going to buy into the hype and the promises.

Human nature is what it is. It has always been this way and it will always
be this way long until the day that our sun goes nova and this rock is just
a distant memory.

And THAT you can take to the bank.
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Tina Golden 14 years ago

Originally Posted by pavionjsl

I think it is a clear example of not enough government programs to help stop people failing when they decide to do something different.

Please tell me this is sarcasm and you forgot to include an emoticon? LOL

Tina
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Imran Naseem

Banned 14 years ago

Karl I agree with you on this. Great post man! A lot of people who decide to quit their jobs to pursue "dreams" are the same people who get impatient quickly and demand instant results.

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garyv

14 years ago

The problem is, a lot of this stuff that appears to be "hype" to one person, is very much attainable by another. For some, it only turns into pipe-dreams and hype, when the results they get are not the same as those laid out on the sales page.

Now I'm not saying that there aren't some sellers out here pushing pure BS on their sales page. The ones that enrage me, are the ones that so blatantly come in here asking advice on how to make the monies, all the while promoting a site that promises champagne wishes and caviar dreams in their signature.

By the way Karl, I love your writing style.

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KarlWarren 14 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

By the way Karl, I love your writing style.

Thanks Gary,

Shakespeare in training

I've always loved writing, it just always took a back seat to graphics - which ended up paying me a full time income. But, when I do sit down and write (rant) I like to think I do it in style lol.
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drmani

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KarlWarren

You won't get anywhere blaming anyone else.

Of course, some of the replies will be:

"But with all the hype..."

Bull! Sorry, but it is... Words sell, yes, but it's YOU that buys it - and it's your money, that's where the buck stops.

Karl, I'm not as generous as you are towards marketers for
their role in this fiasco.

Sure, Bob is to blame. But, I believe, so are the marketers.

I explored this in greater depth in a blog post from around
a year back, called "Internet marketing influence"

All success
Dr.Mani

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

See, the thing is, Bob doesn't know yet. To him, he WAS doing research. He had no way of knowing what he was getting into. Perhaps it was his first exposure to a hyped up sales letter.

Now, if he would KEEP doing it, then it would be 100% his fault. But at this point it isn't fair to say it's ALL his fault.

All the best,
Michael

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

Dr Mani,

thanks for your reply. I'm not suggesting that the industry is squeaky clean - personally, I don't like hype myself as it muddies the water...

I'm not standing on one side of the fence defending those who don't deliver on their promises of "Massive Income" however, but what I am trying to do is offer a wake-up call for those who buy, and buy, and buy and get nowhere.

There are hype artists and scam artists...

One who delivers a system, which if put into practice has the potential to make the user money - but hypes it up, is in my opinion a HYPE ARTIST.

One who delivers nothing, but sells with pure hype, is in my opinion a SCAM ARTIST.

I'd say there's a massive difference between the two.

However, I am suggesting that Bob is in need of a little introspection (Bob being a euphemism for the wider IM audience) and self control, which in turn would limit Bob's chances of being scammed by the scammers, or bankrupted by his own inactions.

Kindest regards,
Karl.

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Ken Leatherman

14 years ago

Before we get to my dissertation on who Bob should blame, I feel it extremely important to blame Karl Warren for making me think so early in the morning.

Face it Warren, it's only 7:39 A.M. here on the east coast of the U.S.A. and the poor folks on the West Coast have not even began to think about waking up. At least give us time for the coffee to kick in and get out of bed before having to think about who Bob needs to blame it on. :p

O.K. enough blame on the Brits for getting the late risers to think.

Dissertation Time now on the Bob poll.

We all know Bob has no one to blame but his parents and his whole family tree and the village for not bringing him up the right way. The failure of society to instill in Bob the ability to think, is not his fault.

Wait we forgot his spouse is at fault because she wants the kids to eat and have a bed to sleep in at night.

So, as we can plainly see, the facts say its not Bobs fault at all that he is miserable and wants to quit his job, to become rich over night.

Come to think of it Bobs story sounds like me when I started out in the IM world, except I spent well over the 1K amount. At least I didn't quit my job until I was old enough to retire.

But the whole point of this exercise comes down to one thing;

"The Buck Stops Here" ~ Harry Truman

So Bob and myself are responsible for our own actions and the consequences that come from those actions.

Ken Leatherman

The Old Geezer

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bgmacaw

14 years ago

Actually, Bob was fired for surfing 'sports' sites on Internet during work hours. He just told his wife the line about quitting to start an online business.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Even if Bob is blaming everybody else for what he has done up to this point, he needs to take 100% responsibility from this point forward.

If he does that, he has a chance to make it.

~Michael

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sal64 14 years ago

Poor Bob is only human...

Bob has to take responsibility for his actions, and by the sound of it, his laziness.

On The other hand I must agree 100% with Shaun's view on this.

It cut's both ways. Just because people like Bob exist, doesn't mean that others have a right to exploit them with hyped up BS.

Or extremely over priced, hyped up BS.

Then again, the Bobs of this world don't want reality. As Jack Nicholson said: You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!

The same goes for Bob.
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TristanPerry

14 years ago

Both.

Many 'make' money online e-books (y'know the kind: "make $28,810,290 per year by clicking one button every month") are designed specifically to get money off newbies, then they seldom deliver on the claims made.

Newbies should have researched first, naturally. But the people who sell such rubbish and don't deliver on their promises are also in the wrong IMO.

In many ways, these kind of MMO products are like *some* of the crappy micro niche sites which we've recently seen: 300 words of spun content, 3 pages of 'content', then adverts. Lots of adverts. Sure it's effective for a bit of time, but ultimately it benefits no-one in the long run. It doesn't benefit the visitor nor search engine, and if the website 'creator' had thought things through, [s]he'd realise that actually building out a successful website would be much more profitable in the long run. And wouldn't get you booted from AdSense, either.

But yeah, it's easy to say "It's Bob's fault, he made the decision". But there *is* a load of really crappy MMO products out there, which don't deliver on the claims they make. And this is equally bad, if not more so.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

For those of you who are not totally blaming Bob, let me ask you a question.

If somebody knocked on your door and said, "Here, sit on this feather for a
week and you'll have $10,000 mailed to your house from some unknown
stranger" would you even for a second believe them?

Sorry folks. I bought into all the hype when I first started too.

Know whose fault it was...MINE!

I didn't use the good sense that God gave me to realize that there was no
way I was going to push a button and have $100 bills fall from the sky.

I wanted to believe it just like I want to believe that SOMEDAY I'll win the
lottery.

Aside from that, if you buy ONE product and it smells like crap (you just
know after reading it that this just ain't possible) then you've lost
nothing but a few hours of your time.

1, Refund the damn thing.
2. Don't buy anything else...PERIOD.

Go to a f*****g professional and get professional business advice.

When you get out of high school and plan to further your education, you
don't go to "Joe and Jim's Bargain Business Bonanza." You go to an
accredited college.

So why, all of a sudden, when we come online, do we f*****g loose all
the sense that God gave us?

Sorry...I have ZERO sympathy for people who let their good sense fly out
the window (like I did 7 years ago for 5 months) and buy into all the crap.

Shame on me for being such a dope and shame on everybody else who
does the same.

Bottom line...We need to take responsibility for our own lives.

Now I'm going to slide into my bunker and await the hand grenades and
mortars that will be incoming.

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

If somebody knocked on your door and said, "Here, sit on this feather for a week and you'll have $10,000 mailed to your house from some unknown stranger" would you even for a second believe them?

It's worse... you have to PAY them for the privilege

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by KarlWarren

It's worse... you have to PAY them for the privilege

That's part two of the pitch: "All you have to do is mail $10,000 to this person."
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Kay King 14 years ago

Great thread! I can almost hear poor Bob's comments over the next few weeks...

My wife doesn't support my internet dream.

IM doesn't work - the gurus are out to get me.

...and so it goes.

kay
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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Products that outright lie are different. Those so-called marketers should be ashamed of themselves. But that's not marketing - it's scamming, in my book. There's a big difference between lies and marketing hype.

Marketing hype is the same thing that gets you to buy one detergent over another to wash your clothes. Or your hair. Or your dishes. Marketing hype has convinced millions of people that smelling your laundry soap on your clothes after you wash them is a good thing when it's not (it means that all the soap didn't rinse out and is sitting there in the fabric).

Does that mean that all these marketers are evil, horrible people because they convinced someone to spend $9 for a bottle of soap when they can get a bottle that cleans the clothes for $3?

Sure, there are some products that have no value and should promptly be refunded but it's not the vast majority that people tend to proclaim. Those looking for ALL the answers to ALL their problems in one product for $47 (or even $1997) are going to be whining no matter how good the product is.

Most "make money online" products DO work - if the buyer puts in the effort to begin with. How many times have you seen someone in here saying they tried a product for a week and it doesn't work? Or that they've spent $1000s of dollars in a year on IM products - if that's the truth, then there is NO WAY they put the time needed to work and perfect those systems.

How is that the marketer's fault that someone doesn't do the work because they're too damn lazy and expect manna from heaven?

There's someone I know on the WSO board right now, with an inexpensive product that tells of a system that ANYONE can set up a new income stream quickly. There are people in that thread bitching because he didn't include traffic generation in the product so it wasn't a complete product - huh?

As long as people come online and expect to find the answers to all their problems in an infoproduct for $20, you are going to have people pissing and moaning. That is not the marketer's fault.

Tina

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

I've seen ebooks like this (and 5 years ago, purchased one). Its sales page was a bit hypey but seemed sensible.

Then - when purchased - it didn't live up to its sales page. At all.

Was this my fault for buying?

It wasn't your fault for buying but it was your fault if you didn't refund and just sat around whining about failing.

Tina

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

For those of you who are not totally blaming Bob, let me ask you a question.

If somebody knocked on your door and said, "Here, sit on this feather for a
week and you'll have $10,000 mailed to your house from some unknown
stranger" would you even for a second believe them?

Sorry folks. I bought into all the hype when I first started too.

Know whose fault it was...MINE!

I didn't use the good sense that God gave me to realize that there was no
way I was going to push a button and have $100 bills fall from the sky.

I wanted to believe it just like I want to believe that SOMEDAY I'll win the
lottery.

Aside from that, if you buy ONE product and it smells like crap (you just
know after reading it that this just ain't possible) then you've lost
nothing but a few hours of your time.

1, Refund the damn thing.
2. Don't buy anything else...PERIOD.

Go to a f*****g professional and get professional business advice.

When you get out of high school and plan to further your education, you
don't go to "Joe and Jim's Bargain Business Bonanza." You go to an
accredited college.

So why, all of a sudden, when we come online, do we f*****g loose all
the sense that God gave us?

Sorry...I have ZERO sympathy for people who let their good sense fly out
the window (like I did 7 years ago for 5 months) and buy into all the crap.

Shame on me for being such a dope and shame on everybody else who
does the same.

Bottom line...We need to take responsibility for our own lives.

Now I'm going to slide into my bunker and await the hand grenades and
mortars that will be incoming.

Your example doesn't quite hold up. Because you would at least be able to SEE the feather, see that it WAS a feather, and the feather would be called a feather.

What if it was somebody who came to your door with rake and said they will rake all your leaves for you, and do it cheap? They also point to the lawns of your neighbors to show how good they are at raking. And then they explain how much more free time you'll have if you let them do the raking.

You pay them because it sounds like a good deal, and you have every reason to believe they are going to do what they said they would do.

But guess what? They only pick up one leaf and then disappear.

Whose fault is that? Surely some of it is on the fraudulent leaf rakers.

Now, if the same people come back in winter and promise to shovel the snow off your sidewalk, and then come back again in spring and summer to mow your lawn, and you KEEP falling for it, then ALL of the fault goes to you.

But the first time, it doesn't. That's my point.

That being said, regardless of whose fault it is, it would then be your responsibility to rake your leaves once you saw it didn't get done.

All the best,
Michael

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Your example doesn't quite hold up. Because you would at least be able to SEE the feather, see that it WAS a feather, and the feather would be called a feather.

What if it was somebody who came to your door with rake and said they will rake all your leaves for you, and do it cheap? They also point to the lawns of your neighbors to show how good they are at raking. And then they explain how much more free time you'll have if you let them do the raking.

You pay them because it sounds like a good deal, and you have every reason to believe they are going to do what they said they would do.

But guess what? They only pick up one leaf and then disappear.

Whose fault is that? Surely some of it is on the fraudulent leaf rakers.

Now, if the same people come back in winter and promise to shovel the snow off your sidewalk, and then come back again in spring and summer to mow your lawn, and you KEEP falling for it, then ALL of the fault goes to you.

But the first time, it doesn't. That's my point.

That being said, regardless of whose fault it is, it would then be your responsibility to rake your leaves once you saw it didn't get done.

All the best,
Michael

Here's the difference. If somebody comes to my house offering to rake
my leaves or shovel my snow (which they do ALL the time) they don't
get paid until...

AFTER THEY DO THE JOB.

If they ask for payment in advance, I say NO.

If I pay first, then shame on me.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Here's the difference. If somebody comes to my house offering to rake
my leaves or shovel my snow (which they do ALL the time) they don't
get paid until...

AFTER THEY DO THE JOB.

If they ask for payment in advance, I say NO.

If I pay first, then shame on me.

You get my point.

Anyway, you never said they had to PAY for the magic feather.

~Michael

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Anyway, you never said they had to PAY for the magic feather.

~Michael

That's a given. Whose gonna give you a magic feather for nothing?

I mean come on Michael...get real...magic feathers go for at LEAST a
grand on the open market and 10 grand on the black market.

And most come with an OTO where you can also get a magic golf ball
that will make you swing like Tiger Woods...minus the infidelity.

That costs an extra 5K.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

That's a given. Whose gonna give you a magic feather for nothing?

I mean come on Michael...get real...magic feathers go for at LEAST a
grand on the open market and 10 grand on the black market.

And most come with an OTO where you can also get a magic golf ball
that will make you swing like Tiger Woods...minus the infidelity.

That costs an extra 5K.

You're in luck, Steven!

I actually have a few experts coming in for the Magic Feather Money Making Workshop. This is a weekend where you can actually LISTEN to the best feather gurus around.

~M~

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garyv

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Here's the difference. If somebody comes to my house offering to rake
my leaves or shovel my snow (which they do ALL the time) they don't
get paid until...

AFTER THEY DO THE JOB.

If they ask for payment in advance, I say NO.

If I pay first, then shame on me.

Good luck trying that on the internet.

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CDarklock 14 years ago

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

For those of you who are not totally blaming Bob, let me ask you a question.

If somebody knocked on your door and said, "Here, sit on this feather for a
week and you'll have $10,000 mailed to your house from some unknown
stranger" would you even for a second believe them?
[snip]

So why, all of a sudden, when we come online, do we f*****g loose all
the sense that God gave us?

I agree, especially when I'm sick to death of reading another crybaby thread from someone claiming to have been scammed by someone and everyone because they bought their products and still didn't become a millionaire overnight.

The thing is ... you imply that everyone may possess a certain level of intelligence and common sense. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. There are those with very low IQs and Zero common sense.

I don't mean to be offensive, but there's no cure for stupid.

Some will never have the mental capacity to make it online or to even do very well offline.

Let's just say .... just to put it in perspective ... that they may be borderline retarded. Not always the case, but let's say so. Should there be protections from the FTC for these people? Of course there should be, IMO and those protections will also protect all from scams since the FTC won't word their guidelines that this protection only applies to the terminally stupid.

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TristanPerry

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

For those of you who are not totally blaming Bob, let me ask you a question.

If somebody knocked on your door and said, "Here, sit on this feather for a
week and you'll have $10,000 mailed to your house from some unknown
stranger" would you even for a second believe them?

Sorry folks. I bought into all the hype when I first started too.

Know whose fault it was...MINE!

I didn't use the good sense that God gave me to realize that there was no
way I was going to push a button and have $100 bills fall from the sky.

I wanted to believe it just like I want to believe that SOMEDAY I'll win the
lottery.

Aside from that, if you buy ONE product and it smells like crap (you just
know after reading it that this just ain't possible) then you've lost
nothing but a few hours of your time.

1, Refund the damn thing.
2. Don't buy anything else...PERIOD.

Go to a f*****g professional and get professional business advice.

When you get out of high school and plan to further your education, you
don't go to "Joe and Jim's Bargain Business Bonanza." You go to an
accredited college.

So why, all of a sudden, when we come online, do we f*****g loose all
the sense that God gave us?

Sorry...I have ZERO sympathy for people who let their good sense fly out
the window (like I did 7 years ago for 5 months) and buy into all the crap.

Shame on me for being such a dope and shame on everybody else who
does the same.

Bottom line...We need to take responsibility for our own lives.

Now I'm going to slide into my bunker and await the hand grenades and
mortars that will be incoming.

A fair point. And I agree.

How about a more 'middle of the road' question, then: lets say, an ebook's (/digital product/digital course/downloadable pdf/some other term) sales page claims to teach the person how to turn $50 into $500 by following the seller's secret system etc.

It's a reasonable enough claim. Not something silly, which is a refreshing change. But then when they buy, it's just a really general ebook which doesn't really teach the person any specific/guaranteed system to turn $50 into $500.

Whether there's a "100% super duper iron-clad steel-plated platinum-core triple lifetime money back guarantee" or not, who's fault is it then?

I've seen ebooks like this (and 5 years ago, purchased one). Its sales page was a bit hypey but seemed sensible.

Then - when purchased - it didn't live up to its sales page. At all.

Was this my fault for buying?

I clicked on the order button, and paid for it. And I was 15 at the time hence I certainly knew how to use a search engine to Google "[some ebook title] reviews". I didn't do that. But at the same time, the sales page was actively misleading. Had it said "This is a really general ebook and chances are you'll learn very little" I probably wouldn't have bought it.

Anywhoo, I'm definitely subscribed to the "100% responsibility for your life" school of thought.

But to me that doesn't mean that some sales pages can outright lie and mislead potential customers, and that's okay.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TristanPerry

A fair point. And I agree.

How about a more 'middle of the road' question, then: lets say, an ebook's (/digital product/digital course/downloadable pdf/some other term) sales page claims to teach the person how to turn $50 into $500 by following the seller's secret system etc.

It's a reasonable enough claim. Not something silly, which is a refreshing change. But then when they buy, it's just a really general ebook which doesn't really teach the person any specific/guaranteed system to turn $50 into $500.

Whether there's a "100% super duper iron-clad steel-plated platinum-core triple lifetime money back guarantee" or not, who's fault is it then?

I've seen ebooks like this (and 5 years ago, purchased one). Its sales page was a bit hypey but seemed sensible.

Then - when purchased - it didn't live up to its sales page. At all.

Was this my fault for buying?

I'm definitely subscribed to the "100% responsibility for your life" school of thought.

But to me that doesn't mean that some sales pages can outright lie and mislead potential customers, and that's okay.

Anybody who believes you can turn $50 into $500 is an idiot...PERIOD.

We spend tens of thousands, up to a hundred grand or more for a college
education that we HOPE will land us a job paying $40,000 a year to start.

Are we REALLY stupid enough to believe that paying $50 is going to get
us a guaranteed $500 return on our investment?

Sorry...it's time for people to get real with their expectations.

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sal64

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Anybody who believes you can turn $50 into $500 is an idiot...PERIOD.

We spend tens of thousands, up to a hundred grand or more for a college
education that we HOPE will land us a job paying $40,000 a year to start.

Are we REALLY stupid enough to believe that paying $50 is going to get
us a guaranteed $500 return on our investment?

Sorry...it's time for people to get real with their expectations.

And who exactly is to blame for falsely raising those expectations with their hyped up claims and clever sales copy????

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Steven Wagenheim 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sal64

And who exactly is to blame for falsely raising those expectations with their hyped up claims and clever sales copy????

WE are to blame for believing it...PERIOD.

It's the same lame argument that Johnny gives to his mother when he
tells her, "But Joey said if I jumped off the bridge I wouldn't get hurt and he
does it all the time."

Sorry...doesn't wash with me.
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KarlWarren

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Anybody who believes you can turn $50 into $500 is an idiot...PERIOD.

Sorry Steve,

can't agree with you there, I've done it.

And here's a simple idea how:

$50 = short report, worth $7. To a list, 100 buy, you've made $650 profit.

That's not what I did, but, shows it can be done.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KarlWarren

Sorry Steve,

can't agree with you there, I've done it.

And here's a simple idea how:

$50 = short report, worth $7. To a list, 100 buy, you've made $650 profit.

That's not what I did, but, shows it can be done.

Sorry Karl, but your list cost you more than $50 to build.

So right there, this whole thing is shot to hell.

Yes, I know you can outsource somebody to create you a short report
for $50, sell it for $7, sell 100 of them and make $650.

That's not what I meant and you know it.

I'm talking about somebody saying to you, "Here, do this thing, it will
cost you $50 and make you $500."

In my 7 plus years of doing this, I have YET to see anything that can
actually deliver on this kind of claim without there being other factors
involved that cost you additional money and/or time.

Unless of course your time is worth nothing to you.

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Steven Wagenheim 14 years ago

And actually, I'll go even farther on the $50 for a report example.

You've spent your $50.

1. How do you know the report is any good?
2. How do you know your sales copy will be any good?
3. How do you know your list is going to be responsive?

Get my point?

When it comes to selling things...

THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES.

One day, people are going to wake up from their comas and get this.
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- Tina Golden 14 years ago
  
  Anybody who believes you can turn $50 into $500 is an idiot...PERIOD.
  
  Steven, now that you've clarified that it's not GUARANTEED, I get where you're coming from. The statement above is completely wrong as written - if I can do it, and have, then anyone can. However, if you had written, 'Anybody who believes you can turn $50 into $500 GUARANTEED is an idiot...', then I would agree 100%.
  
  Tina
  
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KarlWarren

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

That's not what I meant and you know it.

I'm talking about somebody saying to you, "Here, do this thing, it will
cost you $50 and make you $500."

I know.

BUT, it can be done - if *YOU* absolutely HAD to turn $50 into $500, I'm sure you could think of some ways. Even if you had to slave yourself out writing 200 articles at $3 apiece by paying $40 to list it as a WSO.

Alternatively, download gimp and kompozer and offer to do some minisite design for $30 as an untested new designer. 17 minisites later (probably a week's time) you're $500 better off than you were.

I don't believe that time costs nothing, as a freelancer that would be ridiculous. But, if all you're going to be doing with that time is chomping on popcorn while watching reruns of Jerry Springer - why not use that time wisely and build yourself a little "seed money" for the bigger picture.

I'm not being argumentative for arguments sake, just offering an alternative perspective.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KarlWarren

I know.

BUT, it can be done - if *YOU* absolutely HAD to turn $50 into $500, I'm sure you could think of some ways. Even if you had to slave yourself out writing 200 articles at $3 apiece by paying $40 to list it as a WSO.

Alternatively, download gimp and kompozer and offer to do some minisite design for $30 as an untested new designer. 17 minisites later (probably a week's time) you're $500 better off than you were.

I don't believe that time costs nothing, as a freelancer that would be ridiculous. But, if all you're going to be doing with that time is chomping on popcorn while watching reruns of Jerry Springer - why not use that time wisely and build yourself a little "seed money" for the bigger picture.

I'm not being argumentative for arguments sake, just offering an alternative perspective.

Karl, I understand where you're coming from but I think we're talking
about two different things.

The typical "make money while you sleep sales page" is catering to the
person's desire to NOT do any work.

What you are describing above (writing articles for $3 a piece, doing
site design, etc,) is actually closer to working a job than the pie in the
sky make money while you sleep crap.

My first product ever was teaching people how to do JUST those things,
work little jobs online that maybe didn't pay much but would at least get
you started making money.

Ironically, it sold 200 copies a month at its peak.

Why?

Because there are actually people out there who DON'T buy into the
"make money while you sleep crap" and that's the point of my argument
with this whole topic.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Again, use a little common sense. And if you don't have any, then making
money online is the LAST thing you should try to do without proper
guidance from a professional.

And no, I'm not talking about these snake oil salesmen. I'm talking about
certified people who actually help build small businesses.

Duh!

What a concept.

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Hanz

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Sorry Karl, but your list cost you more than $50 to build.

So right there, this whole thing is shot to hell.

Yes, I know you can outsource somebody to create you a short report
for $50, sell it for $7, sell 100 of them and make $650.

That's not what I meant and you know it.

I'm talking about somebody saying to you, "Here, do this thing, it will
cost you $50 and make you $500."

In my 7 plus years of doing this, I have YET to see anything that can
actually deliver on this kind of claim without there being other factors
involved that cost you additional money and/or time.

Unless of course your time is worth nothing to you.

Agreed. Seems people don't think time is money. A lot of people here are happy to make a sale on Clickbank for $34.95, after having spent the past week writing one article after another and trying to push traffic. Meanwhile a kid from McDonalds has made almost 10 times that amount working a regular job.
As for Bob, poor sap! He got taken for a ride.

His own fault for being thick and gullible.

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sal64

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

For those of you who are not totally blaming Bob, let me ask you a question.

If somebody knocked on your door and said, "Here, sit on this feather for a
week and you'll have $10,000 mailed to your house from some unknown
stranger" would you even for a second believe them?

Sorry folks. I bought into all the hype when I first started too.

Know whose fault it was...MINE!

I didn't use the good sense that God gave me to realize that there was no
way I was going to push a button and have $100 bills fall from the sky.

I wanted to believe it just like I want to believe that SOMEDAY I'll win the
lottery.

Aside from that, if you buy ONE product and it smells like crap (you just
know after reading it that this just ain't possible) then you've lost
nothing but a few hours of your time.

1, Refund the damn thing.
2. Don't buy anything else...PERIOD.

Go to a f*****g professional and get professional business advice.

When you get out of high school and plan to further your education, you
don't go to "Joe and Jim's Bargain Business Bonanza." You go to an
accredited college.

So why, all of a sudden, when we come online, do we f*****g loose all
the sense that God gave us?

Sorry...I have ZERO sympathy for people who let their good sense fly out
the window (like I did 7 years ago for 5 months) and buy into all the crap.

Shame on me for being such a dope and shame on everybody else who
does the same.

Bottom line...We need to take responsibility for our own lives.

Now I'm going to slide into my bunker and await the hand grenades and
mortars that will be incoming.

Mate, that's all well and good...

But it's a bit like a drug dealer hanging outside the Betty Ford clinic. You know... exploiting the weak.

Sadly, there's too many people out there who are justifying their BS with "Oh, I only sold him the gun.. but I didn't make him pull the trigger and kill someone".

The blame lays on both sides of the street.

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Nick Brighton

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Human nature is what it is. It has always been this way and it will always
be this way long until the day that our sun goes nova and this rock is just
a distant memory.

And THAT you can take to the bank.

I agree with your post Steve, but I have to jump in here. There's really no such thing as "human nature" rather, "human behaviour."

We're not born greedy, wanting flash cars, bigger houses, or whatever else. We're born with the basic primeval instincts to love, reproduce and survive. All the rest is artificially built into society.

We only act within our environment, which shapes our behaviour. The things we do are responsive to the environment... we don't do them instinctively from birth. Therefore, it's not human nature at play... it's human behaviour.

If you don't believe me, then Google "girl brought up with dogs" and you'll read a fascinating story about a girl isolated from humans all her life (tragically.) She walked on all fours, drank water from a bowl, and howled instead of talking.

Is that "human nature"? No, it's human behaviour. Behaviour that is LEARNED from our surroundings... and the good news is, behaviour can be changed.

Anyway, bit off topic, but whenever I see the old "human nature and that's just the way it is" card, I have to say something.

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

If you don't believe me, then Google "girl brought up with dogs" and you'll read a fascinating story about a girl isolated from humans all her life (tragically.) She walked on all fours, drank water from a bowl, and howled instead of talking.

Is that "human nature"? No, it's human behaviour. Behaviour that is LEARNED from our surroundings... and the good news is, behaviour can be changed.

Studied something similar in my Nature Vs Nurture coursework before my Sociology exams.

The boy who grew up with chickens. Parents locked him in a chicken coop and he crowed, walked like a chicken and was completely wild.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

I agree with your post Steve, but I have to jump in here. There's really no such thing as "human nature" rather, "human behaviour."

We're not born greedy, wanting flash cars, bigger houses, or whatever else. We're born with the basic primeval instincts to love, reproduce and survive. All the rest is artificially built into society.

We only act within our environment, which shapes our behaviour. The things we do are responsive to the environment... we don't do them instinctively from birth. Therefore, it's not human nature at play... it's human behaviour.

If you don't believe me, then Google "girl brought up with dogs" and you'll read a fascinating story about a girl isolated from humans all her life (tragically.) She walked on all fours, drank water from a bowl, and howled instead of talking.

Is that "human nature"? No, it's human behaviour. Behaviour that is LEARNED from our surroundings... and the good news is, behaviour can be changed.

Anyway, bit off topic, but whenever I see the old "human nature and that's just the way it is" card, I have to say something.

Point taken...wrong wording on my part. I think I'll start to call this
the nit pickers hangout.

We are what we are because of where we live...in general.

Yeah, I guess if I grew up with dogs I'd bark, eat out of a bowl and piss
on one leg.

But I didn't and I don't and most people in this world don't.

So shoot me for saying human nature instead of human behavior.

For "practical" purposes, they're the same thing.

Sheeeesh (pick, pick, pick, pick)

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Hesaidblissfully 14 years ago

In Bob's case, I'd say the blame lies more with him, based on the fact that I know more about Bob and what actions he took (or didn't take) than I do about the products he purchased. Without knowing exactly what the products in the example were offering and what they actually delivered, I can't really make a judgement on them.

Now in GENERAL, I think that the responsibility lies both with the buyers and the sellers. Buyers have a responsibility to do due diligence and use common sense, but sellers also have a responsibility to sell products that are what they say they are. If your product can't do something, then don't say that it can.

The reality is that we have both lazy buyers who want a magic success button and unethical marketers who have no problem making misleading claims in order to get a sale. Both sides need to be held accountable for their actions (or lack thereof).

If you walk down a dark alley alone at night and get mugged, you're a dumbass for walking alone down a dark alley at night, but that doesn't change the fact that the mugger comitted a crime.
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drmani

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

For those of you who are not totally blaming Bob, let me ask you a question.

If somebody knocked on your door and said, "Here, sit on this feather for a
week and you'll have $10,000 mailed to your house from some unknown
stranger" would you even for a second believe them?

...

So why, all of a sudden, when we come online, do we f*****g loose all
the sense that God gave us?

Sorry...I have ZERO sympathy for people who let their good sense fly out
the window (like I did 7 years ago for 5 months) and buy into all the crap.

Shame on me for being such a dope and shame on everybody else who
does the same.

Bottom line...We need to take responsibility for our own lives.

Your "magic feather" often is cloaked under the disguise of
being something COMPLETELY different - and the promises aren't
quite as blatantly recognizable as puff and smoke as "you'll have
$10,000 mailed to your house"!

Oh no, they don't. Otherwise, EVERYONE would mistrust them, as
you say.

I've got well nigh on FIFTEEN years of experience buying and
selling stuff online. I've studied copywriting, persuasion,
psychology and have clocked tons of experience with studying
and being influenced by sales copy and techniques.

You would imagine I'm a hard-bitten cynical specialist who
*should* know better - BUT... nine months back, I got scammed
by a Facebook ad and spent $297 on a course that was a dud.

Who is to blame?

Me.

Sure.

BUT... the person who lied to me in the sales copy, and then
refused bluntly to refund my payment in violation of the
guarantee offered on her sales copy, was ALSO to blame.

And when the 'pitch' is targeted to the right 'mark', and is
backed with a finely tuned, honed and refined expertise, it
is possible to con ANYONE out of cash. Or worse.

To place all the blame on the buyer and absolve the seller of
using such methods to palm off junk on an unwary prospect is
wrong, in my opinion.

Sneaky 'mind control' marketers do use such convoluted logic
to justify applying their NLP and similar tactics on clueless
targets who don't have a chance of seeing what they're being
subjected to - until it's too late.

They say, "But no one FORCED them to buy!" - as if that alone
justifies all the nonsense they try in the effort to make them!

I've always spoken out against it - and refuse to justify this
action under the argument that "they should know better".

Unfortunately, 'they' don't always know better.

But WE (marketers selling to 'them') should!

My opinionated 2 cents, fwiw

All success
Dr.Mani

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by drmani

Your "magic feather" often is cloaked under the disguise of
being something COMPLETELY different - and the promises aren't
quite as blatantly recognizable as puff and smoke as "you'll have
$10,000 mailed to your house"!

Oh no, they don't. Otherwise, EVERYONE would mistrust them, as
you say.

I've got well nigh on FIFTEEN years of experience buying and
selling stuff online. I've studied copywriting, persuasion,
psychology and have clocked tons of experience with studying
and being influenced by sales copy and techniques.

You would imagine I'm a hard-bitten cynical specialist who
*should* know better - BUT... nine months back, I got scammed
by a Facebook ad and spent $297 on a course that was a dud.

Who is to blame?

Me.

Sure.

BUT... the person who lied to me in the sales copy, and then
refused bluntly to refund my payment in violation of the
guarantee offered on her sales copy, was ALSO to blame.

And when the 'pitch' is targeted to the right 'mark', and is
backed with a finely tuned, honed and refined expertise, it
is possible to con ANYONE out of cash. Or worse.

To place all the blame on the buyer and absolve the seller of
using such methods to palm off junk on an unwary prospect is
wrong, in my opinion.

Sneaky 'mind control' marketers do use such convoluted logic
to justify applying their NLP and similar tactics on clueless
targets who don't have a chance of seeing what they're being
subjected to - until it's too late.

They say, "But no one FORCED them to buy!" - as if that alone
justifies all the nonsense they try in the effort to make them!

I've always spoken out against it - and refuse to justify this
action under the argument that "they should know better".

Unfortunately, 'they' don't always know better.

But WE (marketers selling to 'them') should!

My opinionated 2 cents, fwiw

All success
Dr.Mani

Dr Mani, I've always said you're one of the brightest bulbs on the planet.

No, I don't absolve crooked marketers from blame on that level. If
somebody flat out lies to me and then won't honor the money back
guarantee, I will simply put a chargeback through my CC. Problem solved
and then make a note never to purchase from that person ever again.

A step further, I will expose them on my personal blog for the lying,
cheating scum that they are.

Having said that, the marketers who practice mind control and hitting
all the hot buttons so that you'll dig into your wallet and pull out your
credit card still have to overcome one thing in the mind of what I feel is
a rational, logical buyer.

"Does this sound reasonable?"

I can go to the Clickbank marketplace right now and pick out 50 different
sales pages where the answer to that is a blatant NO.

It is with THOSE sales pages that I have a major problem with people
reading them and actually BELIEVING that this is even within the realm
of possibility.

Okay, maybe I'm looking at this through the eyes of a marketer. Maybe
people are more trusting than I give them credit for.

But again...go back to my original post about casinos and the lottery.

People believe because they WANT to believe.

I know my chances of winning the NJ Pick 6 are astronomical.

Yet...every week, twice a week, my wife goes to the local supermarket
to buy our tickets.

Do these marketers take advantage of that? Of course. That's the whole
point of my argument. If people wouldn't behave like people behave, this
wouldn't be an issue.

When I was in high school and "brainwashed" to believe that the only legit
way to make a good living was to go to college, had I seen any of these
sales pages back then I would have laughed hysterically.

So what has changed?

What has changed is as we get older, we get more cynical and jaded
with how life REALLY is. And that's when we want to believe in the lottery
just to get away from reality.

If I showed my daughter some of these sales pages, she'd laugh so hard
she'd bust a gut.

Maybe we should be asking why that is instead of why people buy into
all the hype.

Maybe we could learn a lesson from my daughter.

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Bill Farnham 14 years ago

Karl, you don't happen to have Bob's email addy you could pass on to me do you...? :rolleyes:

Sorry, but we all know "The Money is in the Bob."

~Bill
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drmani

14 years ago

GREAT points, Steven, and thank you for your gracious comment,
too.

I'm an incurable optimist - and see the potential for a climate
where a seller would make offers that are compelling and attractive,
realistic and valuable, BUT ALSO targeted to the ideal prospect - and
no, by that I don't mean anyone who can afford the ticket price,
but the ones who are most likely to benefit most from them.

It's a tenet at the core of Jay Abraham's "Strategy of Pre-Eminence"
- and one I've personally tried to follow with my selling online.
(Maybe that's why I have an audience that's MUCH smaller than most
- but I'd rather have it this way, than the other!)

btw, I *loved* this philosophy:

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

So what has changed?

What has changed is as we get older, we get more cynical and jaded
with how life REALLY is. And that's when we want to believe in the lottery
just to get away from reality.

And yes, maybe your daughter can teach us all some valuable lessons!

All success
Dr.Mani

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by drmani

They say, "But no one FORCED them to buy!" - as if that alone
justifies all the nonsense they try in the effort to make them!

I've always spoken out against it - and refuse to justify this
action under the argument that "they should know better".

Unfortunately, 'they' don't always know better.

But WE (marketers selling to 'them') should!

Hey Dr.,

I agree with these comments. However, the mistake Bob made was to quit his job.

In car collision cases, courts in the US now sometimes don't just decide a winner/loser. The judge will sometimes give a "percentage" of the blame to both parties.

For example, someone enters the intersection and makes a turn and didn't yield the right away and causes a collision. However, the other car was speeding.

The judge may decide both share the guilt and say the guy that made the bad turn is 65% at fault and the speeder is 35% at fault.

I can see a defense for Bobfor buying the course, but the decision to quit his job was all his own, despite the hype. And it was his decision to quit his job that really got him in trouble and not the price of the course.

I'd say there's enough blame to go around...

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Lee Wilson

14 years ago

Of course to some extent it is the fault of the sellers but here's the thing, this isn't Utopia. We've already opted to be a part of it just by getting involved. A large percentage of the entire economy is based on selling people dreams and lies. It isn't unique to IM. Where I live, everyone thinks they need a 4x4 to take the kids to school half a mile down the road. Hype and false dreams is an unfortunate part of selling, like it or not, it's what people buy. Do i support it? No not really, but it is what it is and I'm in it. Bottom line is it's the fault of all involved whether you are buying or selling. Get over it or get out.

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

No matter where people's opinions lie...

Whether Bob is to blame, or not...

And whether he takes responsibility for his actions...

He is the one who has to live with the consequences... and, invariably, those who he loves dearly also have to live with them.

So, I hope Bob learns from his mistakes - even IF someone else was partially to blame.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

To be fair, it's also possible Bob has just bought a leaf raking system. And then somebody shows up at his door with a rake and tells him how to rake his lawn.

No scam there.

Now it's up to Bob to follow through.

~Michael

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JohnMcCabe

14 years ago

The bottom line is, Bob had to pull the credit card out.

I don't fault Bob for the first purchase. At that point, he didn't know any better. If we look, most of us has one of these GRQ books on a hard drive somewhere.

From that point on, Bob is an idiot.

Hyping himself up to the point he impulsively quits his job...

Purely foolish.

Believing everything he reads on the Internet...

Either stupid or incredibly naive, and neither is a reliable indicator of success.

Buying another MMO product - an expensive one - without trying what the first product promised to teach...

Another gaffe.

And perhaps the dumbest move of all - doing all this without even consulting his wife. I'm not even going to start on this one, but I'm betting that, at best, Bob discovers the other thing the Internet is really good for. And has to start shaving his palms...

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Biggy Fat

14 years ago

I'm guessing this thread is a response to this thread:

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...m-load-bs.html

But in this case, yeah Bob is at fault. He should know that people are going to sell him the dreams of doing it big and to do his research first.

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KarlWarren 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Biggy Fat

I'm guessing this thread is a response to this thread:

Good guess, and totally correct.

BTW, anyone who's getting too serious in this thread... blame it on my mischievous streak, I woke up in one of those moods where I fancied a good rant and to challenge some perceptions.
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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Come on!

You have to at least place a little fault on the liars?

That doesn't mean you're not 100% responsible, but come on!

~Michael

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Rod Cortez

14 years ago

The late Jim Rohn summed it perfectly for me about 20 years ago at a seminar when I started blaming my father, infoproducts, low-paying job, etc. for not getting ahead in life when he gave me a few minutes of his time:

"Rod, you're going to hear a lot of sound advice today, but when you leave today there's one thing I hope you never forget: you won't see any real success in life until you take 100% accountability for all your successes and failures."

I wrote it down, stopped blaming outside forces, and to this day I still read it when I wake up in the morning.

Sure, any unethical marketer shares part of the blame if they're not offering true value and something that actually works if put into action, but in Karl Warren's specific example this is all on Bob.

RoD

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Janice Sperry

14 years ago

Karl, please forward this post to Bob.
-----

Bob,

1. Get refunds on the products you bought right away.
2. Go see if you can get your job back. If you can't, find another job as soon as you can.
3. Join the Warior Forum. In your spare time login to the forum and learn as much as you can about IM.
4. Don't ever buy another product about making money online or Internet marketing until you have more knowledge and experience. Even then check the product review section in the WF before you make a final decision.
---

As you can tell from my fake message above, I vote: Bob's fault!

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espradley

14 years ago

It's not reality to quit your job by reading an online article... If you do that, it probably explains why your not your own boss...if that make any sense at all

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DavidMaddux 14 years ago

Hey Karl,

Tip of the hat to you for the clever way you crafted your original post, very cool.

You were able to touch on many familiar emotions, everyone in here can relate. Great job.

Best wishes.
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- Steven Wagenheim 14 years ago
  
  Let me just say one thing.
  
  What I've stated above in all my posts is JUST my opinion. It is not fact and
  in no way am I even claiming that I am right in how I feel.
  
  It is just that...how I feel about this subject.
  
  I do find it interesting to see what side of the fence each person is on.
  
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espradley

14 years ago

Then again...now that I think about it...wasn't that $37 article about how to create your own $37 article and sucker people into it?

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

I blame Bob mostly, as I've said but marketers are unwilling to accept any responsibility for misleading and deceptive marketing practices ....

Enter the FTC to do the job for them.

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Steve Sanchez

14 years ago

It is human nature to assign blame. It is not a learned thing. At least that's my perception after watching my toddlers blame each other when they are not even in the same room! My 4 year old even blames his cousin for things even though she hasn't even visited in a week. I find it amusing and enlightening.

I guess I was the same way until I finally became aware that you can't blame other people for your actions. Own it! Take responsibility for yourself and you'll rarely ever be a "victim" again.

Enough of my soap box. I think I read a post yesterday that probably inspired this thread. The newbie gets frustrated because they don't make a million dollars within 2 months. We all know, just as with any business, it takes time to built.

What about Bob? Great movie!

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

Dr. Mani,

I really enjoyed your last post, and under the circumstances you describe,
selling a pipe dream (or lying) and delivering nothing of value is certainly
not the buyers' fault.

I've heard it said that you should be selling dreams and providing solutions,
some people forget to provide the solution - which gives our industry a
very bad reputation.

In gambling, there is a rule of thumb - never gamble what you can't
afford to lose. The same goes for investing. It's a shame that gamblers
and investors fail to heed that advice.

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

It's interesting to see so many lay part of the blame on the marketer without knowing what the sales pages said or what the products delivered. Unless I missed something, there's no way of knowing if either marketer in this story lied about anything, or if the products they sold failed to deliver on the promises made.

And ... why did Bob even start looking for and buy a second product when the first one got him excited enough to quit his job?

The bottom line to me is, IF the marketers lied, they can be blamed for lying, for perpetuating fraud, whatever ... however, Bob is still 100% responsible for his own actions.

We live our entire lives inside our head. Our mind is the gatekeeper. What we let in and what we let influence us is our responsibility. It's convenient to want to blame others, but the only influence others have over us is the influence we allow.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

It's interesting to see so many lay part of the blame on the marketer without knowing what the sales pages said or what the products delivered. Unless I missed something, there's no way of knowing if either marketer in this story lied about anything, or if the products they sold failed to deliver on the promises made.

And ... why did Bob even start looking for and buy a second product when the first one got him excited enough to quit his job?

The bottom line to me is, IF the marketers lied, they can be blamed for lying, for perpetuating fraud, whatever ... however, Bob is still 100% responsible for his own actions.

We live our entire lives inside our head. Our mind is the gatekeeper. What we let in and what we let influence us is our responsibility. It's convenient to want to blame others, but the only influence others have over us is the influence we allow.

Yep, I assumed the sales letter Bob read was misleading. It was this part of it that led my thinking in that direction...

"Quickly and Easily Force Hundreds of Dollars Into Your Bank Account While Filling Out Surveys"

I don't know of anything like that that actually works, but I suppose it's possible. So, while I chose to assume the marketer was being deceptive with such a statement, I'm glad that others do not see it that way.

That being said...

We all have the benefit of being in the IM game, and will therefore apply filters that Bob won't. It's a hypothetcial situation, but it is very difficult to unknow what we already know. And until we do that, despite our best efforts, we can't really pass judgment on Bob.

At least that's the way I'm thinking now. It's an interesting conversation with lots of food for thought.

All the best,
Michael

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oneplusone

14 years ago

Where is Bob's WIFE in your poll?

Behind every great man there's a ...

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Alfred Shelver

14 years ago

I hate it when some of my favorite warriors have differing opinions, means I have to choose sides

So I am going it is Bob's fault (what you didn't know was Bob was also the vendors name Ha Ha Ha creative fence sitting)

I loved this thread though a thought provoking constructive non negative RANT.

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Here's something I find interesting. I started this thread in off-topic.

http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...d-deliver.html

One marketer in there was ripped off $3,000 and one $4,500 and there's tons of people filing complaints against this IRS Tax Relief company. I didn't read in there anybody saying ... your fault. You should have had more sense to fall for that.

Of course, the company makes absolutely false claims and everybody of course blames this company for it's false and deceptive advertising.

This is no different, IMO, than any marketer making false and deceptive claims. This is more of a TV ad scam rather than an IM scam, but it's all the same. If you are lying to your customers, even when they should be smart enough to know better, at least the FTC and courts will be assigning the guilt and responsibility to you, not the customer that was ripped off.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Here's something I find interesting. I started this thread in off-topic.

http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...d-deliver.html

One marketer in there was ripped off $3,000 and one $4,500 and there's tons of people filing complaints against this IRS Tax Relief company. I didn't read in there anybody saying ... your fault. You should have had more sense to fall for that.

Of course, the company makes absolutely false claims and everybody of course blames this company for it's false and deceptive advertising.

This is no different, IMO, than any marketer making false and deceptive claims. This is more of a TV ad scam rather than an IM scam, but it's all the same. If you are lying to your customers, even when they should be smart enough to know better, at least the FTC and courts will be assigning the guilt and responsibility to you, not the customer that was ripped off.

You raise a good point, Suzanne.

Here's the thing: The seller may be held liable by the curts, and you can't blame the buyer in cases like this, HOWEVER...taking responsibility in this case would include suing the seller. In IM, it's asking for a refund.

So, while fault may be able to be assigned to different parties, in different ratios, it is each person who needs to take 100% resonsibility - on BOTH sides.

All the best,
Michael

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Here's something I find interesting. I started this thread in off-topic.

http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...d-deliver.html

One marketer in there was ripped off $3,000 and one $4,500 and there's tons of people filing complaints against this IRS Tax Relief company. I didn't read in there anybody saying ... your fault. You should have had more sense to fall for that.

Of course, the company makes absolutely false claims and everybody of course blames this company for it's false and deceptive advertising.

This is no different, IMO, than any marketer making false and deceptive claims. This is more of a TV ad scam rather than an IM scam, but it's all the same. If you are lying to your customers, even when they should be smart enough to know better, at least the FTC and courts will be assigning the guilt and responsibility to you, not the customer that was ripped off.

See, this is getting to the crux of the matter. The company in the story you linked to is accused of wrong doing. In the story about Bob there is no mention of the companies doing anything wrong, and there is no mention of the products not being exactly as promoted.

That the marketers are guilty or the products are bad are assumptions people are making on their own.

That's why any blame placed on the marketers in reference to Bob are misplaced, IMO.

Besides ... why was Bob surfing the Internet looking for ways to quit his job while he was at work and being paid to work? Because Bob is an irresponsible and selfish employee.

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

See, this is getting to the crux of the matter. The company in the story you linked to is accused of wrong doing. In the story about Bob there is no mention of the companies doing anything wrong, and there is no mention of the products not being exactly as promoted.

Yep ... you're right. There is no mention of any fault on the marketer's part in the OP ... so I'm back to ... Bob is an idiot.

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Shaun OReilly

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KarlWarren

Whose fault IS it that Bob has spent $234 on crap?

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

That the marketers are guilty or the products are bad are assumptions people are making on their own.

That's why any blame placed on the marketers in reference to Bob are misplaced, IMO.

One of the questions asked by Karl in his OP (quoted above)
assumed that Bob had spent his money on crap.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

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inter123 14 years ago

The main forum is awash with such posts. On one level this post gets people thinking about ethics, human behaviour and the like. it is very easy to spend time reading this stuff, kill time and not do any work.

As for Bob, now that he has quit his job, he should get on with it. I am sure with a bit of skill and some luck, he can in 24 hours make what the income was in 1 year!
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James Clark 14 years ago

Great post Karl. I was coming out of a restaurant in Manhattan the other day and a guy on the street ask me for some money to get a cup of coffee.

So, my friend and I felt like we were in a generous mood for the day.

We offered to buy him a meal. He flat out refused the meal and suggested we just give him the money.

Not for nothing, I started talking to him. Long story short, the guy was a drug addict. He told me that he needed the money to buy drugs.

I must point out that he was very articulate. But, anyways, he said it’s just as much fun going to buy the drugs as it was taking them.

Well, I don’t do drugs. Honestly, I did not know that.

In Bob case, just think about how he felt. On his way home he thought he was going to make a lot of money online and not have to do any work. Boy that must have felt real good until he told his wife. (LOL)

When you think about money all the time you can’t see how to make any. My father once told me that the reason that finance companies charge high interest rates is because people want stuff like cars so bad they don’t think about what they are doing.

IM is just like any other business. You need money and a plan.
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Dennis Gaskill 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly

One of the questions asked by Karl in his OP (quoted above)
assumed that Bob had spent his money on crap.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

Not so fast, Shaun. The story also says the first product was so good it caused him to quit his job.

The story doesn't say Bob took any action. In fact, the story seems to have been played out in 1 day so Bob could not have had time to determine if the products would work as advertised or not.

If the product was crappy, why did Bob quit his job? He read the product before he quit. If he read it and it was crappy and he still quit, wouldn't that be Bob's fault?

Perhaps the "crappy" label Karl used was Bob's excuse for not taking action because it involved work? Sound familiar? Or, perhaps Karl played it that way intentionally so there would be two directions a person could take.

The story obviously has some incongruity, whether accidentally or intentionally, but that's what makes it so interesting. It allows a person to slip into the blame game and play from the position they most closely identify with, without having to give it much thought. Don't you find that interesting?

I'm a big believer in personal responsibility, so that's why I see it the way I do. As I see it, what I said in a previous post still applies, whether the products were good or bad: "We live our entire lives inside our head. Our mind is the gatekeeper. What we let in and what we let influence us is our responsibility. It's convenient to want to blame others, but the only influence others have over us is the influence we allow."

Bob was irresponsible and selfish. He cheated his boss by surfing the 'net for personal reasons while he was being paid to work. If he'd have been doing his job he wouldn't have been in a position to buy that first product in the first place. Whose fault was that?

Then later, he bought another product without trying the first product that got him so excited he quit his job. Whose fault was that?

Bob acted rashly, and that is Bob's fault in my opinion.
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- genietoast 14 years ago
  
  Bob has no way of knowing the truth unless he tries things and fails at them, too.
  
  How many "truthful" sales pages are out there. And with the good truthful ones out there in the sea of stuff, how is Bob going to easily find them?
  
  Without Bobs out there, the moneymakers wouldn't be making money. In the same way, that without human nature wanting easy money, Las Vegas would never survive.
  
  So really, one should reward Bobs.
  
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sal64

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly

One of the questions asked by Karl in his OP (quoted above)
assumed that Bob had spent his money on crap.

Dedicated to your success,

Shaun

The OP did not state if it was spent on crap or on legit products.

I'm with you on this Shaun.

Selling someone a Sh#t sandwich is still selling someone a sh#t sandwich... regardless of how you try and spin it, or how greedy the buyer is.

Marketer's on here can defend their position as much as they want to... but only the ones who do not (nor never have) make false or hyped up promises can point the finger at Bob.

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sal64

The OP did not state if it was spent on crap or on legit products.

I'm with you on this Shaun.

Selling someone a Sh#t sandwich is still selling someone a sh#t sandwich... regardless of how you try and spin it, or how greedy the buyer is.

Marketer's on here can defend their position as much as they want to... but only the ones who do not (nor never have) make false or hyped up promises can point the finger at Bob.

Well Bob and anyone else who feels this way ..... please do me a favor and do not buy my products. They're just cheap little plr websites, but God forbid that you end up feeling cheated in some way. I could be responsible for you doing something drastic like going on a murder spree or committing suicide or something.

Sounds to me like Bob would screw up everything he touches. I mean, Bob doesn't sound like the brightest penny in the pot, what with quitting a job and all without any real plan to take care of himself.

You could probably hit Bob in the head with a business plan that has worked for you and he wouldn't utilize it, especially if it involved a bit of work. You see, Bob is basically a lazy little sh*t who wants money handed to him. He doesn't want to have to spend any time learning something and he certainly doesn't want this to be any work involved.

Bob finds it convenient to blame everyone else for his failures. Otherwise, he might have to take a look at himself and that would just be too scary.

I still don't exonerate marketers from the responsibility to market ethically, but it doesn't make any difference because there are going to be slimy, snake oil salesmen from now until the end of time.

The lies will never stop ... until you stop believing.

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sal64

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Well Bob and anyone else who feels this way ..... please do me a favor and do not buy my products. They're just cheap little plr websites, but God forbid that you end up feeling cheated in some way. I could be responsible for you doing something drastic like going on a murder spree or committing suicide or something.

Sounds to me like Bob would screw up everything he touches. I mean, Bob doesn't sound like the brightest penny in the pot, what with quitting a job and all without any real plan to take care of himself.

You could probably hit Bob in the head with a business plan that has worked for you and he wouldn't utilize it, especially if it involved a bit of work. You see, Bob is basically a lazy little sh*t who wants money handed to him. He doesn't want to have to spend any time learning something and he certainly doesn't want this to be any work involved.

Bob finds it convenient to blame everyone else for his failures. Otherwise, he might have to take a look at himself and that would just be too scary.

I still don't exonerate marketers from the responsibility to market ethically, but it doesn't make any difference because there are going to be slimy, snake oil salesmen from now until the end of time.

The lies will never stop … until you stop believing.

Now tell us how you really feel about Bob.

I concur with your view. However, I do know of some genuine people who sincerely wanted to make a go of it. So they developed a blind faith in the gurus, who were so sincere on stage and did such a stunning job of persuasion (you know them... the ones that close 40%+ of the room).

I know of a Bob who maxed out his card to purchase a product. He came to me for help, because most of what was promised was just a sugar coated turd. It wasn't from a lack of trying... as my Bob has shown me over the last 3 years... he now operates a 6 figure consultancy business.

He's not a lazy sh#t. He was just a guy who was confronted by a major challenge (I'll try and get him to share his story on here) and was desperate.

BUT, he also doesn't blame the guru for his initial predicament.

BUT, I can certainly understand why he fell for it in the first place.

IMO, if Bob purchased a genuine business system, that expressed realistic outcomes, but did nothing with it, then he is a muppet of the highest order.

If on the other hand, he purchased a pile of crappola, and despite his efforts, it simply didn't work, then he is still a muppet for falling for it, the seller is also a first rate asshole.

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sal64

Now tell us how you really feel about Bob.

I concur with your view. However, I do know of some genuine people who sincerely wanted to make a go of it. So they developed a blind faith in the gurus, who were so sincere on stage and did such a stunning job of persuasion (you know them... the ones that close 40%+ of the room).

And I completely agree with you. In this thread I feel I have somewhat of a split personality. I believe in personal responsbility, but I've also seen the seemy side of Internet Marketing and that includes coming from some of the top level Internet Marketers ... those who are very good at their jobs of persuasion and selling, plus those who hire or sell their leads to what amounts to nothing but a bunch of snake oil salesmen in call centers.

Just because I'm not an easy mark for these people, doesn't mean that those who are deserve what they get. The well meaning customers who honestly believe the dream they are buying into.

I don't believe in selling dreams. I believe in selling something tangible, a tool that they can use or information they need to accomplish a goal. Selling a dream just because there are dreamers isn't right. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

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sal64

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

And I completely agree with you. In this thread I feel I have somewhat of a split personality. I believe in personal responsbility, but I've also seen the seemy side of Internet Marketing and that includes coming from some of the top level Internet Marketers ... those who are very good at their jobs of persuasion and selling, plus those who hire or sell their leads to what amounts to nothing but a bunch of snake oil salesmen in call centers.

Just because I'm not an easy mark for these people, doesn't mean that those who are deserve what they get. The well meaning customers who honestly believe the dream they are buying into.

I don't believe in selling dreams. I believe in selling something tangible, a tool that they can use or information they need to accomplish a goal. Selling a dream just because there are dreamers isn't right. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

Yup, definitely on the same page with you.

Problem is that due to human nature/behavior, selling reality does not sell.

The whole make-money-on-the net scenario is built on the myth(?) that it's fast, easy, and costs no money (not in all cases)... and anyone can make big money.

Take away these elements and sell it as a business.. and it's not much different to any other biz opp.

I can see both sides of the arguments to be honest.

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Robert Puddy

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I don't believe in selling dreams. I believe in selling something tangible, a tool that they can use or information they need to accomplish a goal. Selling a dream just because there are dreamers isn't right. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

I believe in selling the dream...

But making sure the tangible is delivered in the product

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

I believe in selling the dream...

But making sure the tangible is delivered in the product

Then we're on the same page. I don't care if you call it a dream as long as the customer is happy and has something of value for his money. That's all I care about ... oh, and making a living doing something I like too.

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Steve Prior

14 years ago

Its easy to say that Bob was an idiot - In which case we are all idiots.

We believe our political party is the right one, our religion to be the only true one, our choices are correct etc... We buy or aspire to buy the best car, drink the best beer, eat the best food.

All judgments are based on our own inherent beliefs and we will do anything and buy anything that supports our beliefs. At the same time we filter out anything or anyone that does not agree with our beliefs

The original premise seems to be based on the assumption that we can all engage our logical brain and make rational choices.

Don't you think it strange that split tests show us all to be what we really are. Emotional decision makers who justify with logic.

This is what Bob did and what we all do multiple times a day.

Who knows where Bob was at the time he made his decision. May be his job crushed him so much that he had to leave to maintain any form of sanity. His decision may yet turn out to be the right one.

Good news and bad news are flip side of the same coin much like Ying and Yang are inextricably linked.

Regards

Philosophical Steve:-)

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Prior

Its easy to say that Bob was an idiot - In which case we are all idiots.

We believe our political party is the right one, our religion to be the only true one, our choices are correct etc... We buy or aspire to buy the best car, drink the best beer, eat the best food.

All judgments are based on our own inherent beliefs and we will do anything and buy anything that supports our beliefs. At the same time we filter out anything or anyone that does not agree with our beliefs

The original premise seems to be based on the assumption that we can all engage our logical brain and make rational choices.

Don't you think it strange that split tests show us all to be what we really are. Emotional decision makers who justify with logic.

This is what Bob did and what we all do multiple times a day.

Who knows where Bob was at the time he made his decision. May be his job crushed him so much that he had to leave to maintain any form of sanity. His decision may yet turn out to be the right one.

Good news and bad news are flip side of the same coin much like Ying and Yang are inextricably linked.

Regards

Philosophical Steve:-)

Not quite true. A lot of people are open minded. I don't believe that my political, religious, and other preferences are the best and exclude all others. They are what I choose and I acknowledge that what is right for me is not right for everyone.

But yes, I do agree that we are often emotional decision makers who justify the decision with logic and some marketers are very good at pulling at those emotional triggers. That doesn't excuse you from making good decisions about your career and finances or at least living with the consequences of bad decisions without blaming everyone else for your failure or for your bad decisions.

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Steve Prior

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Not quite true. A lot of people are open minded. I don't believe that my political, religious, and other preferences are the best and exclude all others. They are what I choose and I acknowledge that what is right for me is not right for everyone.

But yes, I do agree that we are often emotional decision makers who justify the decision with logic and some marketers are very good at pulling at those emotional triggers. That doesn't excuse you from making good decisions about your career and finances or at least living with the consequences of bad decisions without blaming everyone else for your failure or for your bad decisions.

I suspect you are right, there are some people who are open minded and willing to accept new truths.

Good decisions and bad decisions are judgments based on where we are at the time of the decision. Some people can and do apply some thinking before reaching a decision and I still suggest that this is often flawed.

Decisions are made based on the chemicals in our brain at the time. Does a person who wishes to commit suicide give their decision lots of thought?

As marketers we must all be aware that we are in the game of persuasion. Whether this is called manipulation or not must to some extent be based on our biased view of the world.

Regards

Steve

I suspect in their eyes they have and can't see an alternative path.

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sal64

Selling someone a Sh#t sandwich is still selling someone a sh#t sandwich...

And if your ad said "Sh#t sandwich: $5," there's nothing wrong with that.
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- Steven Wagenheim 14 years ago
  
  Guys, let's put this in perspective.
  
  If somebody had approached Bob and said, "Hey Bob, buy a McDonald's,
  you'll make a fortune" and Bob took him up on it, what do you think would
  have happened if Bob...
  
  Hired sh*t for brains workers
  Didn't keep the food properly refrigerated
  Didn't open the store on time and closed late
  Was rude to everybody who came in
  
  And so on.
  
  Do you think his McDonald's would be successful?
  
  People want to blame IM but the truth is, you can f*ck up any business
  online OR off line if you don't know what the f*ck you're doing.
  
  Bob had no plan. He quit his job without having a CLUE what he was
  even going to do with his new "business".
  
  Bob's an idiot...plain and simple.
  
  And you can't blame stupid on the Internet marketers.
  
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- sal64 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  And if your ad said "Sh#t sandwich: $5," there's nothing wrong with that.
  
  Sadly, most sh#t sandwiches in the IM world are advertised as 100% pure gold nuggets.
  
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KarlWarren

14 years ago

This Bob guy has a lot to answer for!

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

I have this quote I really like... dunno the origin: "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

We're each responsible for our own choices and own behavior. The consequence attached to those choices and behaviors exists and will be due and payable.

Certainly, many people attempt to avoid, mitigate, or deflect consequence - but it's always there.

Dysfunction, hyper-emotionalism, and even overt external influences (like unscrupulous marketers with their emotional pitches for crap products) have no bearing on the consequences of a bad decision that someone makes in haste. The individual is still responsible for the choice they made in the end. Even products that are complete falsehoods... it's the responsibility of the buyer to verify the claims made in the product, check out the vendor, etc... before buying.

Bob got all up inside himself emotionally, jumped the gun, spent money, quit a job, probably hurt his marriage, whaveter.

Bob's choice. Bob is a dolt.

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AvD555

14 years ago

Bob is only human.. this is all sarcasm .. my opinion

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DogScout

14 years ago

President Nixon once said...
something to the effect that: it is not my fault... (referring to Watergate) ...but the responsibility is mine. (or something along those lines).

Fact is, Bob is the one effected. (His wife and kids are innocent and just along for the decent into Hell). Regardless of who did wrong, Bob ultimately shoulders the responsibility of his decision, whether or not other parties led him astray. In this world, personal responsibility is continually eroded by 'It's not my fault.' He may have had help in making a hasty and unwise decision, but he and his alone will suffer for it. It isn't like he was mugged or shot by a sniper a mile away. He had the choice to delay a decision until he had thoroughly investigated the claims. He was as much a victim of his own impatience as he was to the $37 e-book copywriter (and a book which actually might have lived up to it's claim if given a chance?).

Sorry, Bob, your responsibility and your fault. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, naivety is no excuse in the eyes of anyone. (This from a guy who has had his clock cleaned several times. But who, in spite of that REFUSES to play victim.) Read the e-book, implement the strategies, rinse and repeat. Welcome to IM; it is now YOUR choice as to whether you are in Hell or Heaven.

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DogScout

14 years ago

PS - That doesn't mean the marker should not be shot at sunrise, but that won't help Bob.

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Peter Bestel

14 years ago

Wow, I don't think I've ever deleted so many draft responses to a thread... I must post more often as I'm evidently out of practice.

Anyway - Yep, Bob's responsibility for whatever predicament he's in. It's not as if he was innocently standing on a street corner and got hit by a bus - he made some dodgy choices and he's in the sh*t. His doing. His fault.

But, as a member of this forum, this community, do we have a shared responsibility to Bob and anyone else that reads his moaning thread?

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Sorry...I have ZERO sympathy for people who let their good sense fly out the window (like I did 7 years ago for 5 months) and buy into all the crap.

Shame on me for being such a dope and shame on everybody else who does the same.

So Steven, are you saying you wouldn't help Bob?

Peter

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Originally Posted by berlanmiranda55

Karl I be in union with you on this. Great placement man! A set of people who craft your mind up to quit their job to trail "ideas" are the same people who find impatient fast and order instant fallout.

This is why I don't use spinners :rolleyes:

Karl,

I have decided that is not the marketer's fault nor is it Bob's fault. It's all YOUR fault for starting the thread

Tina

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DavidMaddux 14 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

This is why I don't use spinners :rolleyes:

That was a good one Thanks.

Best wishes.
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DogScout

14 years ago

Exactly a point I made: (and a book which actually might have lived up to it's claim if given a chance?).

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

Interesting debate,

I can't decide whether the ambiguity was manufactured - or whether it was a product of writing the story in one sitting without a thought for how it should play out.

The use of "crappy" was intentional though - not necessarily because the products were useless, but because I've heard "crappy" used to describe:

- Something that doesn't actually work
- Something that will take me time
- Something that will take effort
- Something that will cost me money to get started

It's very interesting to see the split with the votes. I wonder how this story and question would have gone down if it were to be played out in front of a group of NON-IMers.

From the passion and the involvement people have in this thread, I can see that the topic is one that affects us all.

I'm pretty sure that none of us WANT to end up jobless, divorced, or even homeless due to our split decisions (not specific to IM) - but I wonder how many people actually do just that.

Due to the response, I'm considering writing Bob's Biography, just for fun.

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DogScout

14 years ago

Time for a re-make of 'Falling Down' with Michael Douglas... Only with Bob playing the lead.

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Will Edwards

14 years ago

I have an internal locus of control so, for me, it's clearly Bob's responsibility; not necessarily his fault.

Will

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zigato

14 years ago

The thing is, the whole internet marketing thing can work - but some people really can't hack it for whatever personal reasons. I would say Internet Marketer's do have some flack to cop as well, but a Marketer's job is to sell, sell, sell... but I'd say it's Bob's fault for being so gullible and not doing his homework.

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winsonlim

14 years ago

Based on personal experience, I have been in this kind of dilemma before. For the past 3 years, I bought tons of "Make Money Online" products and signed up to various membership sites just to learn how to setup a PLR membership site selling PLRs or selling Niche ebooks.

Spending lots of time implementing this method and that method.

Last year, I bought tons of WSOs and non helped me.

So one fine day, I thought to myself, why am I still not making money?

I pondered and figured out I need a mentor.

So I began searching for one. The bad news is they only helped me get started and didn't continue helping me.

The good news is on 25th June 2010, I signed up to a mentoring program and finally found someone who is devoted in helping me build my business and keep track of my progression.

I said to myself that I will make it work no matter what happens and I will do whatever it takes to make it work.

So I began to create my products, outsource graphics and write my own salesletter.

My mentor helped me to do a critique and after 2 months, finally it gone live!

The moral of my story is one must build a marketing system to make money online.

There is no two ways about it.

Buying multiple products won't helped you make money online.

Creating a system and make it work will make money online.

Model what the successful people,(6 Figure marketers) are doing.

They are product creators and own a list of subscribers.

So what are you waiting for?

Create your own products, build your own squeeze page and write your own salesletter.

You have to do the hard work in the beginning to get it started.

After your system is setup, all you need to focus on is driving traffic.

That's it.

Hope it helps,
Winson

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Keith Everett

14 years ago

Blame is what we use to justify our irrational behaviour.

Keith

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

I like you, Philosophical Steve.

I love how this thread took it's own direction based on a story which appears to have struck a chord with everyone who took the time to reply.

I love how assumptions were made, and people labelled Bob based on them.

I love how the word "fault" turned to "blame" when it could have so easily meant "responsibility".

What I've learned from this is people are VERY passionate about their beliefs when it comes to their online business. How much risk they're willing to take and how much security they need.

I'm a people watcher, philosopher and amateur psychologist. I hope you've all enjoyed this thread as much as I have.

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vok

14 years ago

Most people that buy these products are not business people or they wouldn't be buying them they'd be most likely selling them. I bet you could give 95% of those people a real profitable offline/online business and they'd STILL fail because they're just not entrepreneurial and business minded. Some people will take that product and will build a business from it but most won't because they just don't have a business mindset.

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LetsGoViral

14 years ago

See. And this is EXACTLY why I am very skeptical towards anything. I rarely will buy a WSO or any other "info product". I will evaluate 100 times if I really need the service, info or software. I've evaded many BS products this way, but still was almost scammed once in my life. Simply luck saved me that time.

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Ron Ansy

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KarlWarren

Welcome to reality,

one day - Bob woke up and decided he hated his job, his boss, his measly pay packet and most of all - his life. He didn't know what to do.

Would he:

Find a new job?
Stop working for a while and take a break?
Start a business?

Bob got up and got ready for work, made it in, three minutes late miserable to boot.

To kill some time, Bob started searching on Google...

"how to quit my job"

"BINGO! I know, it's easy to make money online - it says it right here on this website, this guy is going to let me in on the secrets for only $37." Bob tried to stifle the excitement, so as not to alert anyone else.

Bob whipped out his credit card, and before you could say "Here's another newbie caught up in the hype", he'd paid his money and downloaded the ebook.

Peeking over the top of his computer monitor, he could see that his boss was busy scratching his arse and sipping a cup of coffee. So Bob started reading...

The excitement grew...

"I can do this, I've got a PC at home" Bob said to himself... "This is the new life I deserve"

Bob felt a surge of motivation, a feeling that was strangely familiar and reminded him of the excitement he'd get when his high school sweetheart used to kiss him at the back of the school playing fields.

"I QUIT!" He muttered to himself... "I QUIT!" A little louder... "I QUIT!" He found himself saying to his boss before he'd even had a chance to think about it.

Bob's boss had an expression, not unlike the face you pull when you sniff vinegar. Just as he was about to open his mouth, Bob picked up his things and left.

Back at home, Bob sat down at his computer - staring.

Staring...

Staring...

"What now?" Bob asked himself. "I know... I'll ask Google"

"What's the easiest way to make money online" He asked.

Google replied... and boy, did it reply!

Hundreds and hundreds of pages of articles, ebooks, sales pages, seminar invitations, upsells, downsells, cross sells...

Bob pulled out his credit card again and swiftly paid for a $197 video homestudy course, teaching him how to "Quickly and Easily Force Hundreds of Dollars Into Your Bank Account While Filling Out Surveys"

This is where the story ends... you already know how it goes...

But the questions begin...

Whose fault IS it that Bob left his job?
Whose fault IS it that Bob has spent $234 on crap?
Whose fault IS it that Bob's wife, who he didn't consult, is probably going to go ballistic?

If Bob had exercised some restraint, done some research, instead of getting caught up in the moment - Bob could easily have started building a business by studing the hundreds, or even thousands of free resources available to him.

It saddens me that so many people take no personal responsibility for their own actions.

If you buy products, that's your responsibility
If you leave your job, that's your responsibility
If you don't take action on what you've learned, that's your responsibility

You won't get anywhere blaming anyone else.

Of course, some of the replies will be:

"But with all the hype..."

Bull! Sorry, but it is... Words sell, yes, but it's YOU that buys it - and it's your money, that's where the buck stops.

I'm not standing on one side of the fence defending those who don't deliver on their promises of "Massive Income" however, but what I am trying to do is offer a wake-up call for those who buy, and buy, and buy and get nowhere.

You keep buying it, so they'll keep selling it!

It's nice having a dream, isn't it... it's even nicer achieving it so you can dream bigger, trust me on that!

Now, I'm going back to work... what will you do?

I would agree with you.. its YOU who is to make any decision in life for yourself NOT someone else SO there is no way to blame anyone for it either.. So, lets ALL blame poor BOB...

Thanks

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Internet Marketing: a.k.a. The Blame Game

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