Article Writing is NOT good advice for newbies!

14 years ago

The generation that values the written word is the biggest demographic group in the history of keeping such records.

Sounds like a pretty good market to target with articles.

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

While I agree with most of your post, I have to say that you lost me at the end. There are plenty of damn good writers on the forum but it will cost you quite a bit more than $10 a pop. That's why many of them don't even bother advertising here and why some of us are getting out of the article writing market.

I find that most of the time when people say they can't find great writers, it's because they don't want to pay the price that a great writer should command. Don't take that personally, please...I have no idea what you've paid or haven't paid. Not meaning you specifically, just the general market.

Tina

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Alexa Smith Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

While I agree with most of your post, I have to say that you lost me at the end.

You need 4 beers to catch up with the end bit, though, probably.

I agree with most of Stephen's post, I must say.

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

There are plenty of damn good writers on the forum but it will cost you quite a bit more than $10 a pop.

I agree. Popping is extra, if anything: $10 doesn't even always get you snapping and crackling ...
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Benjamin Ehinger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

While I agree with most of your post, I have to say that you lost me at the end. There are plenty of damn good writers on the forum but it will cost you quite a bit more than $10 a pop. That's why many of them don't even bother advertising here and why some of us are getting out of the article writing market.

I find that most of the time when people say they can't find great writers, it's because they don't want to pay the price that a great writer should command. Don't take that personally, please...I have no idea what you've paid or haven't paid. Not meaning you specifically, just the general market.

Tina

Tina,

I agree that it should cost you more than $10 a pop the problem is that nobody wants to pay it on the forum. I charge about $1 for 100 word for articles that probably should go for about $4 or $5 for 100 words, but it is the only way to get any business right now.

My hope is that after I do some good quality work for enough people they will come back over and over again and I can slowly raise my prices to get what I probably deserve for the writing I have done.

Benjamin Ehinger

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mojojuju 14 years ago

I get it. You're older than most people here and things aren't like they used to be back in those 'Good ole days". Todays youngsters just don't know what it was like to write with a fountain pen, use an Atari 2600, or start a car with a hand crank instead of an electric ignition. And I bet when you went to school, you didn't ride no dag' 'gon Trans Am like whippersnappers today do - no way! You walked to school - uphill - both ways - in three feet of snow...

... with no shoes ...

(sorry, I'm on my 3rd beer)
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- KenThompson 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by mojojuju
  
  I get it.
  
  No smartass... I don't think you do.
  
  Ken
  
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  Michael Shook 14 years ago
  
  A most interesting persona. Smartass, old school, a bunch of threads all on the front page of the forum.
  
  Don't suppose you've got a WSO in the works on forum marketing, do you?
  
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  petec 14 years ago
  
  Hi Folks,
  My 0.02$ worth.
  I think advising "newbies" to start with article marketing is the correct thing to do. It will give the "newbie" a good feel of a market, research and keywords. If they do their homework properly.
  Learning how to write articles is very good experience. Now the reason I think most people don't bother (and also the reason most people never make money) is it is hard work. You need to research your market, find good keywords, write compelling copy, this all takes practice and experience. We all need to start some where. Article marketing is a good place to start.
  Pete
  
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  Havenhood 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by KenThompson
  
  No smartass... I don't think you do.
  
  Ken
  
  Spoken like a TRUE warrior!
  
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Alex Barboza

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Benjamin Ehinger

Tina,

I agree that it should cost you more than $10 a pop the problem is that nobody wants to pay it on the forum. I charge about $1 for 100 word for articles that probably should go for about $4 or $5 for 100 words, but it is the only way to get any business right now.

You can actually charge more if you can set apart from your competition offering a better service

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Kay King

14 years ago

I don't think the OP was talking about article pricing (just now anyway) - but about quality.

Look at any of a few dozen threads here that are of the "I need money" - "I need money now" - "please help" type - and you'll notice half of the respondents suggest "write and sell articles".

Never mind the post asking for help has 30 spelling errors and the grammar couldn't find it's way out of the bag if you tipped that bag upside down. No punctuation, odd wording, clearly no command of the written word.

But the advice is - write articles. Unfortunately that's what some do - and it doesn't matter what they charge. They can't write worth beans. It's not only frustrating to people who buy from them - they end up no better off than they were.

Anyone can put words on paper - that doesn't mean everyone can "write".

kay

Of course, by now Steve is on beer #6 - so he has no idea what's going on here...

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PhoebeSmellyCat

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Never mind the post asking for help has 30 spelling errors and the grammar couldn't find it's way out of the bag if you tipped that bag upside down. No punctuation, odd wording, clearly no command of the written word.

kay

This post reminded me of a comment I read in a writing forum I'm a part of.

In response to a critique request on an excerpt of a novel:

"Your such a good righter! I'm a right two!"

I am not making this up.

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paulie888

14 years ago

Originally Posted by PhoebeSmellyCat

This post reminded me of a comment I read in a writing forum I'm a part of.

In response to a critique request on an excerpt of a novel:

"Your such a good righter! I'm a right two!"

I am not making this up.

I think this goes hand in hand with what Tim said earlier regarding the sad state of the education system here in the US.

People don't read anymore, and thus they don't know how to spell, as they don't even see these words in written form anymore!

As a result, they "spell" according to how they speak these words, and it irritates me to no end when I see people writing like that - what I find really egregious is when they can't even distinguish between "your" and "you're", this really drives me nuts.

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Justin Jordan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Benjamin Ehinger

Tina,

I agree that it should cost you more than $10 a pop the problem is that nobody wants to pay it on the forum. I charge about $1 for 100 word for articles that probably should go for about $4 or $5 for 100 words, but it is the only way to get any business right now.

My hope is that after I do some good quality work for enough people they will come back over and over again and I can slowly raise my prices to get what I probably deserve for the writing I have done.

Benjamin Ehinger

This isn't true.

For one thing, it's tempting to think that your number of clients is inversely proportional to your price, but that isn't necessarily the case. As a case study, the number of people contacting me for writing has increased every time I've increased my fees.

But if you want to get those bigger fees, even here, you need to actually show people what you can do and sell them on your value. This includes both having engaging copy and getting testimonials.

You probably won't retain the same customers while raising your prices, though, and that's generally a bad strategy.

What the Warrior Forum in particular provides is the ability to easily find people and get jobs. The downside is that, in general, you're only going to get a fraction of the price you would otherwise be able to get. If you want to want real money with writing, you need to move into working for businesses, mostly offline.

The baseline income for someone writing copy (which in this context is different than the marketing definition - copy can be anything from brochures to whitepapers) is $50.00 an hour. The downside is that you have to work harder to get the jobs and jump through more hoops in the process.

It's a trade off and whether it's worth it depends on what you're trying to do.

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genietoast 14 years ago

I interpreted this post a little differently.

Perhaps you meant that it wasn't a good idea for newbies to start off article marketing. You may have a point there.

Article marketing is slightly different from article writing. You have to employ a hint of copywriting into article marketing because the goal is to convince the reader to click through your link.

That takes a bit of practice.

But I do think that content writing for websites willing to pay upfront fees (some have great fees; some have terrible ones) is a good idea for newbies interested in making any sort of money online.

First, they get practice writing web content which is different than writing in print. And they get paid for it.

Second, they have to deal with the editor, so they're forced to improve their writing skills.

I think that prepares them for better blogging, content writing and marketing down the road.
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donhx

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Benjamin Ehinger

Tina,

I agree that it should cost you more than $10 a pop the problem is that nobody wants to pay it on the forum. I charge about $1 for 100 word for articles that probably should go for about $4 or $5 for 100 words, but it is the only way to get any business right now.

My hope is that after I do some good quality work for enough people they will come back over and over again and I can slowly raise my prices to get what I probably deserve for the writing I have done.

Benjamin Ehinger

People who know how to write, and do it as a profession, get 10-35 cents per word. Nobody gains anything when people are willing to write for a penny a word. It hurts the client, the writer and the overall market.

In my view, people who don't know how to write, who wouldn't know effective writing if they saw it, don't value writing, so they only offer chump change. Unfortunately, desperate writers go for it, so the Internet is filled with junk. Since this junk does not result in a decent Return on Investment (ROI) for anyone, the death spiral continues.

I'd say the bottom line is this: If you can't write your own stuff, whether it be e-books, sales pages or articles, IM is the wrong business for you.

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PatrickBrianONeill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

I find that most of the time when people say they can't find great writers, it's because they don't want to pay the price that a great writer should command.

That is the truest comment I have seen in a long while!

Thanks for saying it.

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Benjamin Ehinger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ouroboros

Everytime someone new comes on here and begs and pleads for advice on how best to "make money online fast" everybody says "start writng articles", its a fast way to make money and break into IM.

I'm going to piss a lot of people off with this, but the truth is 99% of these newbies couldn't write an article if they had the outline in front of them and a "miracle article writer" software to create the content.

I grew up in a generation that valued the written word. I was fortunate because my mother embedded in me the need to be able to read and understand by the time I started school in the early 60's. My fondest memories of my childhood were all pretty much centered around the library and the vast accumulation of knowledge that could be accessed there.

I'll never forget the time when I was in the 5th grade and suddenly we didn't have to rely on the once weekly class trip to the school library, we were free to go every day before and after class. I read "20,000 Leagues under the Sea" (Jules Verne) in one night!

I'm dating myself a bit, but I hope it helps me make my point. I grew up when B&W TV was the norm....slide rules...my first calculator (in college) cost almost $75 and could ADD, SUBTRACT, MULTIPLY, and DIVIDE.

People don't read anymore, everything is handed to them. Their computer entertains them, their phone does everything but wipe their butt, and hundreds of channels of satelite tv keep them fat and on their as..couches.

(Have you ever dammed a creek with rocks and sand to make a swimming hole?)

Fact is most of the current generation couldn't write their way out of a paper bag.

And I'm not talking about "non english speaking or writing", most of those people are intelligent and try, they just don't understand the many correct variations of the english language.

I'm so sick of trying to find good written content...

Its a pain in the ass, but I'll write my own content from here on out, damned if I'll post some of this rehashed drivel at an article site just to get a link, what if a "real live human being" sees that crap and thinks I wrote it?

I'll be dammned if I'll take that chance with my reputation.

Steve

(sorry for the ramble, I'm on my 4th beer)

Steve,

It is not that hard to find good written content if you know who can provide it. There are a lot of crappy writers out there that just keep putting the same junk out over and over again and I am guilty of rewriting a lot of articles of the years, but when I write an article it is good quality content.

We have to be honest and understand that it is all about marketing and most new marketers think it is about having more out there than anybody else and to an extent it is. However, there is still value to good written content.

Newbies in my opinion should start with article writing simply because you can make money with it without spending a dime and you can pick up a few good article writing guides for free if you are willing to be on someone's list.

I remember when I started 8 years ago with Bum Marketing and had no idea how to write a good article. I can put together quality content about anything now with the proper research and anybody else that wants to learn how to do so can as well.

Benjamin Ehinger

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Charlotte Jay

14 years ago

Well, yes there is a PLETHORA of crap out there I agree with you. However, there are some really good writers out there also. The problem is that many good writers are getting bogged down and lumped in with the 99 cent use-google-translator-to-get-it-in-english writers. My writing is excellent, I REALLY enjoy writing, but I have yet to find the right client/audience for what I produce.

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82ana

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Charlotte Jay

Well, yes there is a PLETHORA of crap out there I agree with you. However, there are some really good writers out there also. The problem is that many good writers are getting bogged down and lumped in with the 99 cent use-google-translator-to-get-it-in-english writers. My writing is excellent, I REALLY enjoy writing, but I have yet to find the right client/audience for what I produce.

I completely agree with you here Charlotte.

I would like to think "I" write quality content. I've ghostwritten (a LOT) ebooks from so-called gurus (sold right here on this forum). But I've yet to come across a great client. All they seem to be worried about is pinching pennies, it almost always ends up being more about word count than quality.

*sigh*

Its a two way stream, you gotta know that. Even on 4 beers...

Plus I'm a "noob" to the IM side of things so I must be in the 1% of noobs who can write.

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bigbrian76 14 years ago

Alrighty, I have to jump in on this spirited debate as well. First of all, kudos to Mr. O (sorry, didn't catch your name there...) for kicking off such a lively and passionate debate!

I may be touching on a lot of points already mentioned in this thread, but I have to chime in. As a writer myself, I always go by the motto "you are what you think you are worth". I only recently got into this arena, monetizing my writing skills. Personally, I take pride in my writing, and when I present any article to my clients, I always say this: "Please give me your candid and honest feedback - even if it means tearing my writing to pieces and telling me it is crap."

Anyone with half a mind can take an article, spin it, re-write it, and add their own touches to make it look quality. That might fool some, but most can see through the cloud of bull it really is. The reality is, it takes talent to turn something generic and re-written over and over again, into something that knocks your socks off.

As a rule of thumb, I have never charged any client more than $10 for any article 500 words or less. And I really don't think anyone should, especially when trying to make a name for yourself when getting your feet wet.

I disagree completely with discouraging newbies to start with article writing. Why? The first thing a newbie should be doing is starting their own blog and branding themselves. They need to write their own content, present their own story, share why they are here and what their mission is - or hope it will be.

I do need to say this about article writing: Short articles at $5 per 500 words, or $1 per 100 words....however you like to see it.....are the stepping stones to larger projects. Personally, I have $5 gigs posted on sites like Fiverr, GigBucks, UpHype, etc., and many of these have opened the doors to larger projects - people are hungry for good writers, and use places like Fiverr to test the waters and see if the quality is there. I treat every Fiverr gig like a mini-interview - and doing so almost always yields repeat business. Just the other day, I had a $5 gig request to write a short 5 page report - which turned out to be 10 pages....in a matter of 2 days. When complete, the client told me "You should be charging HUNDREDS for work like this....I can't believe you are doing this on Fiverr!"

I'm not taking time out to toot my horn here.....that's not the intent. The intent is to show that the track of starting out writing on your blog, then posting gigs on Fiverr, using my website as a reference point for samples of my own writing - allows people to see just what they are getting. And I find that most people who come to Fiverr have more than one simple, quick job in mind. It has worked for me, I am sure it can work for others.

My suggestion, for those getting started is this: Write your own content in your blog. Get people to come to your blog and read what you have to say. Let them comment on your writing and notice your skills. This is validation about your capabilities as a writer - then once you post your gigs on Fiverr, here in WF, or anywhere else, you will have credibility to show for your efforts. Then, once you do some gigs, get feedback and testimonials from your clients to further validate your work.

Yes, I am a writer. I care about what I do. And seeing folks come in and devalue our time and efforts by spinning PLR into half-baked content simply pisses me off. I hope more people will read this thread and see how many great writers are here, who actually give a damn. For those of you who do care, and have passion, I encourage you to drop me a PM. We need to band together and team up to provide quality service to our clients.

And I could go on writing more....but this is a good point to stop.

Cheers,
Brian
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KenThompson

14 years ago

Your post doesn't piss me off, and I agree about the continuing decline
in the quality of education and lack of interest exhibited by many students.

I also understand your frustration with finding quality writers.

But I disagree with your advice. I would not try to discourage anyone
from pursuing an idea or dream. Maybe the dream is to find a way to make
money and not necessarily writing. But perhaps they decide to give writing
a crack.

Maybe they suck at it in the beginning. But it's also possible for that
person to improve their writing. Of course we all know that is not a
common response - to improve. But there are some who will eventually
get it and make the bold move to learn and practice their writing.

Hell, that person could become a great writer. You never know.

So I would urge anyone to avoid discouraging newer and less experienced
people from pursuing their dreams just because that person is frustrated,
fed-up, and feeling the effects of a few beers.

But you can do that and you have; hence, my response.

I just finished slamming down a cold glass of milk. Damn good, too.

See ya,

Ken

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internetsecretbook

14 years ago

Article marketing is the basic that one must have to pursue IM if you want to do it all by yourself. You can outsource it if you are not good enough in writing. let alone an entire article. But instead of discouraging those newbies, let us encourage them that if they really love writing, they must pursue article writing which is the essence of bum marketing or even of affiliate marketing.

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Benjamin Ehinger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by internetsecretbook

Article marketing is the basic that one must have to pursue IM if you want to do it all by yourself. You can outsource it if you are not good enough in writing. let alone an entire article. But instead of discouraging those newbies, let us encourage them that if they really love writing, they must pursue article writing which is the essence of bum marketing or even of affiliate marketing.

100% Agree and I am stuck in the Huston Airport and have been Drinking all day while dealing with all the delays so we will just say Beer #7

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Zabubli

14 years ago

Agreed with most. The low-quality writers have saturated the market, making it hard(er) for the 'real' writers to get paid what they deserve. With content, you're (usually) going to get what you pay for...

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Ouroboros

14 years ago

Wow, just what I was hoping for...a spirited discussion by people that don't suck at writing!

I've finally built one-to-many adsense sites and decided to do what I love best, research and write. I've done the research and the competition is fierce! It will be a long slow road to distinguish myself as a writer if I do go that way. (But I know where the niches are).

I've been buying and 'freesourcing' a lot of plr lately and the quality just sucks. And don't get me started with my research at the freelancing sites!

Thanks for all the good replies guys, I wish I could vouch for each and every one, but I will have to say I've read some of Tina's stuff and i was impressed. If only I could afford such!

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Ouroboros

14 years ago

You walked to school - uphill - both ways - in three feet of snow...

funny you should say that, I use that as a joke with the 'kids'!

but I had shoes, it was my old '72 ford pinto that wouldn't make it up the hill!

A most interesting persona. Smartass, old school, a bunch of threads all on the front page of the forum.

Don't suppose you've got a WSO in the works on forum marketing, do you?

persona my ass, I am who I am, I admitted I was drinking...you need a WSO?

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Michael Shook

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ouroboros

funny you should say that, I use that as a joke with the 'kids'!

but I had shoes, it was my old '72 ford pinto that wouldn't make it up the hill!

persona my ass, I am who I am, I admitted I was drinking...you need a WSO?

Nope, had my quota of WSO's for the month.

I remember my grandma telling me when I was a kid about her 1972 Vega that she had as a youngster. She always wanted a Pinto, but that aluminum block on the Vega was just too sweet.

Personas are always useful in marketing. No harm in that.

Shoot fire, son, I can't even take a picture of myself with my webcam, so I'm stuck with this Z. Darn the bad luck.

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Clara H

14 years ago

We're all entitled to our own opinion, so I'm certainly not going to say you are wrong. I both agreed and disagreed with your post.

The way I read it, you seem to be implying that the reason newbies are incapable of writing an article is due to their generation and the way they were educated. I am likely in the 'people nowadays' group you are refering to and I'm inclined to disagree. I was reading and writing novels before I hit high school and I very rarely watch tv. I cannot stress enough that I am *not* an exception. I personally have more trouble finding someone who doesn't read compared to someone who does. Same goes for people lazing about in front of the television. I think people do still value the written word.

The thing I do agree with you on is many people do use their computers as a primary source of entertainment and recreation. And I will admit that I am so bad at maths it hurts, but I am exceptionally bad.

I think what stops people from writing decent articles is not neccasarily their generation, education or what they do in their spare time. It is their mind set and willingness to work. People my age are capable of good writing. But whether they are capable of 'sticking to it' or willing to put the hard yards in is another story. I think this applies to all ages.

A newbie wanting to 'make money fast' is already set up for failure and needs to be educated. Then it is up to their mind set whether they can achieve it or not. This is why most people can't write articles.

Just my opinion, people may disagree. In some ways I am a newbie myself afterall! Interesting thread and discussion.

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Justin Jordan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ouroboros

Fact is most of the current generation couldn't write their way out of a paper bag.

This is true, but you're flat out wrong about coming from a generation that values reading more. That is just golden age thinking, where the past was better. For one thing, the illiteracy rate has dropped three quarters since then. Given how many things I've had to read from people of all ages, this particular generation isn't any less literate or able to write well than any other and, indeed, even taken as a percentage more people are able to write well than previously.

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Alexa Smith Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Justin Jordan

the illiteracy rate has dropped three quarters since then.

Maybe so, but the increase in the innumeracy rate has made up for it ...
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- KenThompson 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith
  
  Maybe so, but the increase in the innumeracy rate has made up for it ...
  
  Don't hurt yourself there, girl. LOL
  
  Ken
  
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- whateverpedia 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith
  
  Maybe so, but the increase in the innumeracy rate has made up for it ...
  
  Sorry if you find this divisive, or it subtracts from the point you are trying to make, or goes off on a tangent, but that statement just doesn't add up, even after reading it multiple times.
  
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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Benjamin Ehinger

Tina,

I agree that it should cost you more than $10 a pop the problem is that nobody wants to pay it on the forum. I charge about $1 for 100 word for articles that probably should go for about $4 or $5 for 100 words, but it is the only way to get any business right now.

My hope is that after I do some good quality work for enough people they will come back over and over again and I can slowly raise my prices to get what I probably deserve for the writing I have done.

Benjamin Ehinger

No, Benjamin, it is NOT the only way to get any business. I'll admit there are a lot of people looking for bargain basement content but you are the one who chooses to compete with the bottom feeders. What you need to do is to target a different market.

Good luck with the raising the prices slowly but you should know that it rarely works. What happens most of the time is that you lose the initial customers and gain a new set - each time you raise the rates. Very few of my clients now are those that were with me when I started off with those low rates you mention.

If your work is worth five times the rate you are charging, then why on earth wouldn't you use your work for yourself? There are those who look on the ads here and immediately dismiss those that charge the lowest rates so don't discount those marketers. If your work is good, you will find clients who want that quality. You need to believe in yourself and show them WHY you are worth more than the rest of the bottom feeders.

Tina

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Oxbloom

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

No, Benjamin, it is NOT the only way to get any business. I'll admit there are a lot of people looking for bargain basement content but you are the one who chooses to compete with the bottom feeders. What you need to do is to target a different market.

Good luck with the raising the prices slowly but you should know that it rarely works. What happens most of the time is that you lose the initial customers and gain a new set - each time you raise the rates. Very few of my clients now are those that were with me when I started off with those low rates you mention.

If your work is worth five times the rate you are charging, then why on earth wouldn't you use your work for yourself? There are those who look on the ads here and immediately dismiss those that charge the lowest rates so don't discount those marketers. If your work is good, you will find clients who want that quality. You need to believe in yourself and show them WHY you are worth more than the rest of the bottom feeders.

Tina

I was just scrolling through to see if anybody had addressed this self destructive post.

Ben! Do NOT hold your breath waiting for nickel and dimers to become high paying clients. Ain't gonna happen.

You can't transform your clients; you have to switch to better paying ones, cold turkey.

Find out who pays bigger, better money for the type of content you create, and force your way on stage in front of them. Cold contact them, if need be. Offer to do a bit for free. Then...blow them away.

The people who actually pay professional wages for content know the value of good writing, and if you're up to spec, they're not going to milk one freebie out of you and then walk away. They'll use you, and they'll recommend you to others.

Traffic in the circles you wish to be a member of. This is, and has always been, one of the secrets of a better life.

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hyderkhan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Oxbloom

I was just scrolling through to see if anybody had addressed this self destructive post.

Ben! Do NOT hold your breath waiting for nickel and dimers to become high paying clients. Ain't gonna happen.

You can't transform your clients; you have to switch to better paying ones, cold turkey.

Find out who pays bigger, better money for the type of content you create, and force your way on stage in front of them. Cold contact them, if need be. Offer to do a bit for free. Then...blow them away.

The people who actually pay professional wages for content know the value of good writing, and if you're up to spec, they're not going to milk one freebie out of you and then walk away. They'll use you, and they'll recommend you to others.

Traffic in the circles you wish to be a member of. This is, and has always been, one of the secrets of a better life.

I used to compete with the bottom feeders, offering to work for $5.00 per article, only to have people try to negotiate with me and talk me down to $3.00 per article (or worse)!

And then (thanks to advice I read on this forum about a year ago from other expert article writers), I decided to jack up my rates COLD TURKEY to see what happens... and voila..... I found a whole new segment of who are READY AND WILLING to pay the higher rates per article. (Yes, I LOST a lot of repeat customers. But I opened a door to a whole new client base.)

Note: These are NOT people looking for quick and dirty just-for-the-sake-of-backlinks articles. They are looking for ACTUAL QUALITY CONTENT for their blogs / websites.

So I will NEVER charge $5.00 an article again.

In fact, I am actually thinking of INCREASING my rates now, because my current rates are still prety conservative.

The bottom line is: You CAN earn $15, $20, $25, $30, or more per article.

You just need to know where to look for them.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by hyderkhan

And then (thanks to advice I read on this forum about a year ago from other expert article writers), I decided to jack up my rates COLD TURKEY to see what happens... and voila..... I found a whole new segment of who are READY AND WILLING to pay the higher rates per article. (Yes, I LOST a lot of repeat customers. But I opened a door to a whole new client base.)

Note: These are NOT people looking for quick and dirty just-for-the-sake-of-backlinks articles. They are looking for ACTUAL QUALITY CONTENT for their blogs / websites.

This is exactly what happens.

What you earn as an article writer depends on the markets in which you choose to compete, and how you approach them, just as much as on your writing skills.

"Starting cheap", intending to build up a client-base and then increase the prices later, is a total fallacy of very little benefit.

What attracts clients to writers with low prices is the prices. At the risk of inadvertently offending one or two people

these are for the most part clients unable to distinguish between different quality-levels of writing in any way other than how much income they produce, and that in any case depends more on how they use the articles than on what the articles contain - and of course their perceptions of it depend on how accurately they monitor and analyse that. When you put the prices up, the outcome is simply that those clients all disappear, and you start again having gained very little (apart from maybe a handful of testimonials).

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Dan C. Rinnert

14 years ago

I dont eben no wut dis tread is abut NE-more, but it dusn't seem to want to die. NE-way I dont c y noobies shuldn't rite articuls. It's not wether er not theyz shuld, but wetherz they can. Edder they r articul riters erz they aintz. Aint no neber mind witch, but if they aint, they shuldn't and iz they r, well, y shuldn'tz they?

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Marvin Johnston

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

I dont eben no wut dis tread is abut NE-more, but it dusn't seem to want to die. NE-way I dont c y noobies shuldn't rite articuls. It's not wether er not theyz shuld, but wetherz they can. Edder they r articul riters erz they aintz. Aint no neber mind witch, but if they aint, they shuldn't and iz they r, well, y shuldn'tz they?

But they can learn, and that is the point. A lot of junk articles go up for backlink purposes, so why not learn while getting the backlinks.

BTW, I've never seen it, but I wonder how writing an article and headlines in the style you wrote would convert? Both from the standpoint of linkbuilding and syndication.

Marvin

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Dan C. Rinnert

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

BTW, I've never seen it, but I wonder how writing an article and headlines in the style you wrote would convert? Both from the standpoint of linkbuilding and syndication.

I will rites fer u fer all most cheep. Not cheep, mindz u, but alls most. I can tranzlitterate yer eksistin' articuls too.

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Richard Van 14 years ago

[QUOTE=Dan C. Rinnert;3120231]I will rites fer u fer all most cheep. Not cheep, mindz u, but alls most. I can tranzlitterate yer eksistin' articuls too.[/QUOTE

Me finkz uze chattin crapz, coz I is bes articoolz riter den iz. i charhgz 100 doluz an our.

Intrestidz?

init.
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- Dan C. Rinnert 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Richard Van
  
  Me finkz uze chattin crapz, coz I is bes articoolz riter den iz. i charhgz 100 doluz an our.
  
  I ain't no cheep, but I ain't all thatz ekspensib edder. I canz do the articuls fer haff of wut u b chargin.
  
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  Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
  
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Richard Van 14 years ago

[QUOTE=Dan C. Rinnert;3120231]I will rites fer u fer all most cheep. Not cheep, mindz u, but alls most. I can tranzlitterate yer eksistin' articuls too.[/QUOTE

Me finkz uze chattin crapz, coz I is bes articoolz riter den is. i charhgs 100 doluz an our.

Intrestidz?

init.
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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

clients unable to distinguish between different quality-levels of writing in any way other than how much income they produce

In business writing, this is exactly what matters.

I've advised many clients to go to other writers for their purposes, because my work isn't cost-effective. Did that just this morning, in fact.

People who submit my articles to EZA for backlinks will never get their money's worth.

My clients today are people who are directly selling my work. They create a base outline or concept for a short report or ClickBank ebook, then pay the several hundred dollars I charge... to make several thousand dollars from promoting it.

I am at rough parity between what I make producing someone else's product, and what I make producing one of my own. But with the guidance of those who make an order of magnitude more money from my work, it won't be long before my own products are significantly more profitable.

So for all the writers out there: Do not take jobs for money. Take jobs only for education. If you cannot learn anything from a job, turn it down.

I price my services at opportunity-loss levels. If I write a 5,000 word report for you, I could instead have written a 5,000 word report for myself. Therefore, I will charge you roughly what I would have made from writing my own report.

Which means the only people who are hiring me are the ones who can make more money than I do from my writing.

I'm happy, because I don't lose the money I could have made; they're happy, because they make an acceptable profit. And in the process of working for these clients, I learn things. Everyone who hires me has something to teach.

I just need to pay attention. Understand what your client wants. Understand why your client wants it. Understand when and how you can use that to improve your own business.

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Buildingfutures

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

In business writing, this is exactly what matters.

I've advised many clients to go to other writers for their purposes, because my work isn't cost-effective. Did that just this morning, in fact.

People who submit my articles to EZA for backlinks will never get their money's worth.

My clients today are people who are directly selling my work. They create a base outline or concept for a short report or ClickBank ebook, then pay the several hundred dollars I charge... to make several thousand dollars from promoting it.

I am at rough parity between what I make producing someone else's product, and what I make producing one of my own. But with the guidance of those who make an order of magnitude more money from my work, it won't be long before my own products are significantly more profitable.

So for all the writers out there: Do not take jobs for money. Take jobs only for education. If you cannot learn anything from a job, turn it down.

I price my services at opportunity-loss levels. If I write a 5,000 word report for you, I could instead have written a 5,000 word report for myself. Therefore, I will charge you roughly what I would have made from writing my own report.

Which means the only people who are hiring me are the ones who can make more money than I do from my writing.

I'm happy, because I don't lose the money I could have made; they're happy, because they make an acceptable profit. And in the process of working for these clients, I learn things. Everyone who hires me has something to teach.

I just need to pay attention. Understand what your client wants. Understand why your client wants it. Understand when and how you can use that to improve your own business.

I learned more from this post than I had with six different 'how to write articles' ebooks that I have purchased over the years.

That in itself makes me feel very good for still learning new thigns, and very bad for wasting the money on those products, ha!

-Sean

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Toplink

13 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

My clients today are people who are directly selling my work. They create a base outline or concept for a short report or ClickBank ebook, then pay the several hundred dollars I charge... to make several thousand dollars from promoting it.

CDarkLock. As a business owner, I like your take on this.

I started dabbling in IM, because I had to. To grow my business, which is management consulting. Now I have my own staff to do it or outsource it. I have SEO guys, web developers etc, but the one thing I have trouble finding is content writers, artice writers, copy writers. It's a night mare.

I have tried quite a few. Anyone who is cheap..........I would not touch with a barge pole! You get what you pay for with writing. In my experience anyway. Consider that when you are pricing your work......

I guess there are 2 types of writing in my mind. Content that no one will ever read, becuase it is just there to create links, or content that will be read. The latter needs to be good, because it represents my business that I have spent 15 years growing!

My best writers I have found so far on eLance. But it's a constant struggle. It's a huge investment in time for both of us, because if the writer is going to be effective, they need to understand my business, the industry and the jargon. And I need to help them come up to speed.

Just my 2c worth. Good writers are worth their weight in Gold and are as rare as rocking horse ****!

Any really good content writers or copy writers out there? PM Me.........

And please don't flame me because I don't want to pay $5,000 per article. There are upper limits too LOL.

P.S. On second thoughts, please don't PM me if you think you are a great writer! I will be innundated with PMs. I am particularly after a good copy writer as well as a good content writer for websites. And Yes I know the difference. (Two different animals) So if you are an ace copy writer in particular, who understands the Dan Kennedy copy writing style please feel free to PM me. Squeeze pages, long form sales letters, email sequences etc.

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MattCatania

13 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Which means the only people who are hiring me are the ones who can make more money than I do from my writing.

I'm happy, because I don't lose the money I could have made; they're happy, because they make an acceptable profit. And in the process of working for these clients, I learn things. Everyone who hires me has something to teach.

I just need to pay attention. Understand what your client wants. Understand why your client wants it. Understand when and how you can use that to improve your own business.

You've outlined one of the fundamental beliefs that is driven into every reader of 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' right here. I love this.

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Ouroboros

14 years ago

Clara,

I meant no condescending attitude toward your generation, although I wasn't really clear about that, like I said I'm now on beer #5!

I spent the decade from '90 to 2000 working with and supervising teenagers ( at a campground and swimming pool of all places! My late 30's Rocked!) The intelligence and thoughtfulness of each succeeding generation renews my hopes.

My swipe was with about the 'make money fast' group of newbies being told to 'write articles'.

That group is not a subset of your circle of friends.

Welcome to the forum BTW.

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Ouroboros

14 years ago

Justin, I could argue your point and we'd both wind up trying to cite studies and stuff, just suffice it to say I've initiated a spirited debate...

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Ouroboros

14 years ago

I've always just written my own stuff and made everything my best effort cause I thought that was how you did it. My brief foray into the world of "writing for hire" has left me a bit taken aback.

I was wanting to do a brief stint as a writer for hire in order to help force me into better management habits ( you can't leave a writing assignment for days like you can an idea), but the prices I would be competing with in the open market are barely subsistence level for an 'employee' in the place I live.

I would love to write on various topics for a while to get my perspective back, but with my mantra of "get paid something for everything you do" I just can't see how to establish that initial reputation for good content.

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TimG

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ouroboros

I was wanting to do a brief stint as a writer for hire in order to help force me into better management habits ( you can't leave a writing assignment for days like you can an idea), but the prices I would be competing with in the open market are barely subsistence level for an 'employee' in the place I live.

I would love to write on various topics for a while to get my perspective back, but with my mantra of "get paid something for everything you do" I just can't see how to establish that initial reputation for good content.

That my friend is because you were looking in the wrong places. Also, consider how you package your offers. Tiffany Dow does a little bit of writing and she does fantastically well based on how she markets her products.

Respectfully,
Tim

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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

If you were to form an opinion solely on people that start topics on "article writing", you would be left to believe that article writers are the most arrogant, whiny, and entitled segment of the IM marketplace.

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Phoenyx

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

If you were to form an opinion solely on people that start topics on "article writing", you would be left to believe that article writers are the most arrogant, whiny, and entitled segment of the IM marketplace.

Hi there.....

I don't think many article writers are like that, but I have met a few digital artists like that

.

I started off with content writing, and I know how hard it can be starting out. Luckily the person I was writing for gave me advice as to what I was doing wrong. Since I stopped writing for him, I have done articles for a few other companies online, but finally put it all behind me to study internet marketing. I believe in a lot of what you all have said to be true. People don't want to pay high price for quality articles, so they go for the cheapest writer and end up with egg on their faces. There is a percentage of today's youth that genuinely believes they can make money by doing the least humanly possible, but there is also a percentage that still believes in good old hard work. Putting in the time to research, get facts right and are prepared to write and rewrite an article until it is perfect.

just my two cents.

Phoenyx

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Stuart S

14 years ago

I agree that Article Writing may not be the best.

If you compare AW to Article Marketing, then the benefits of AM could be much better. While you may not get the initial $6, you may be able to make a sizeable commission each month from AM'ing.

That's what direction I would tend to go if I was in those shoes.

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txconx

14 years ago

I have a bit of a divided opinion about what you're saying.

On the one hand, I agree the level of education has declined. There's plenty of evidence of it here in the forum, with numerous grammatical and spelling errors that I know aren't typos.

On the other hand, I wouldn't write articles for someone else for what most people seem to be willing to pay. I would imagine there are competent writers, but they aren't cheap.

For now, I do all my own writing. I have more time than money and I'm sure when I'm done that I have articles that are 100% original.

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Juan Esteban

14 years ago

In my opinion Article marketing is where every newbie should start.

While doing it you can learn keyword and market research, and enhance your writing skills.

So a person can learn by doing without spending money on it.

Just my 2 cents

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JBroyer44

14 years ago

I know I am a newbie here and I just started article marketing and freelance writing over the past couple of weeks, but I must say a MAJORITY of the material I find while researching, regardless of the niche is absolutely horrid!

That isn't to say there aren't any good ones out there you just have to sift through the crap to find them.

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Ouroboros

14 years ago

I'm thinking Kay figured out my drift (concept)

I don't think the OP was talking about article pricing (just now anyway) - but about quality.

Look at any of a few dozen threads here that are of the "I need money" - "I need money now" - "please help" type - and you'll notice half of the respondents suggest "write and sell articles".

Never mind the post asking for help has 30 spelling errors and the grammar couldn't find it's way out of the bag if you tipped that bag upside down. No punctuation, odd wording, clearly no command of the written word.

But the advice is - write articles. Unfortunately that's what some do - and it doesn't matter what they charge. They can't write worth beans. It's not only frustrating to people who buy from them - they end up no better off than they were.

Anyone can put words on paper - that doesn't mean everyone can "write".

kay

Of course, by now Steve is on beer #6 - so he has no idea what's going on here...

Time was, 6 beers exceeded my creative level, I long ago learned that a 12 pack is better for creative thinking, but only if your desk is near your bed lol

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bradlean 14 years ago

May be Article Writing is good for newbies especially if he is a genius, creative and smart and extra ordinary guy.

There is no impossible on this world.
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- Dennis Gaskill 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  ... and the grammar couldn't find it's way out of the bag if you tipped that bag upside down.
  
  My grammar wouldn't be caught in a bag. She was way too sophisticated for such nonsense.
  
  I are just glad I are a gooder writter than them pee pole Steve is wranting about is. It's grate to right more betterer than averidge bee cuss it gets you tones of respect and stuff like that there.
  
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LauraJames

14 years ago

I love writing, but I was blessed with all the necessary skills way before this point in my life. I am grateful that I do not have to depend on others to handle writing projects.

Newbies should not shy away from article writing. After all, improvement will only come by working through mistakes and striving to do better. That's the case for all of us.

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bradlean

14 years ago

[DELETED]

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by bradlean

Dennis post is boastful, arrogant just because he is an english speaker. May be he is talking to a dog not human. That's why he is like that. Better not too chin up too much or not too windy. It might cause typhoon to others. Lol!

I hate boastful type of person.

You didn't see the humor in my post? There was nothing boastful or arrogant about it. I guess you saw what you were looking for, but it was intended as something lighthearted and fun. Too bad you missed it, but I'd bet money most people get it.

I will say one thing ... you didn't see me singling anyone out and calling them arrogant and boastful as you have done, let alone saying I hate the kind of person I ASSUME they are based on three sentences. Perhaps you need to look in a mirror if you're looking to find fault with others.

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bradlean 14 years ago

Ok!

Let me see this one:

"My grammar wouldn't be caught in a bag. She was way too sophisticated for such nonsense."
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- Dennis Gaskill 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by bradlean
  
  Ok!
  
  Let me see this one:
  
  "My grammar wouldn't be caught in a bag. She was way too sophisticated for such nonsense."
  
  grammar = grandma (short for grandmother)
  
  It's a play on words. A pun. A silly JOKE.
  
  And for that you think it's proper for you to call me arrogant and boastful?
  
  It seems to me it is you who are being arrogant, not to mention presumptuous. You don't know me. You'd be wise to learn not to make snap judgments about people you don't know, and wiser still to refrain from blathering your ill-conceived judgments about people in public. Your intentional insults do not reflect well on you, sir.
  
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Sylvia Meier

14 years ago

I agree with the concept that people in this forum really need to stop peddling the write articles line to everyone who comes to the WF looking for how to start out online. It is sad to see so many people immediately jump to the just write articles and sell line. Some people simply cannot write for the life of them.

Writing articles isn't a skill. It's a craft. There is so much more to it than simply spitting out words and hoping they work, never mind the grammar and puncuation that should go along with those words. Depending on the use for the article, it changes how it is written and crafted. If I am seeking a high ctr from an article directory, that article is going to be way different from an article full of content and information on my own site. The end use of an article deems the language, length and flow of the article. Most people do not get this.

In regards to pricing, you need to make yourself stand out. Part of being an article writer is being a marketer, and being able to sell yourself is key in getting the higher paying clients. They need to know why they should be paying you top dollar. They need to see the proof and evidence that you are better then that 99 cent writer.

Those who say you can't grab higher paying clients right here are the forum, aren't selling themselves properly. In a forum where people are selling articles for 99 cents, I am selling my articles for over $14 for a 400 word article (and that is when they are on sale). The difference? My articles do exactly what the client wants them to do.

Just my two cents, or ten

Best wishes,
Sylvia

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CR

14 years ago

Hey everyone! Who should be offline, trying to write good articles, rather than beating this thread to death??!

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kayaman

14 years ago

I am agree with OP, articles writing is hard for newbies. Even i ask for outsource take very long times to finish, i have used Warriors (no need ask for name). he taken quite long for just 10 articles , almost 3 weeks

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FionaFell

14 years ago

I'm getting into the thick of Internet marketing for myself and my clients and I certainly do not want to jump into article writing.

I would prefer to pay a pro to get it done, and do it well.

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Benjamin Ehinger

14 years ago

Originally Posted by FionaFell

I'm getting into the thick of Internet marketing for myself and my clients and I certainly do not want to jump into article writing.

I would prefer to pay a pro to get it done, and do it well.

This is why guys like me exist. Those of us that can write in clear and good English for the marketers that do not like to write or are not good at it. It is a talent and a skill that deserves to be paid for. Not everybody can do it and, honestly, writing is how I have gotten through most of my college classes with A's and B's in my lifetime. My mother was not so lucky and it takes her days upon days to complete a short paper, but she is really good at taking tests.

My point is that we all have our talents and Article writing and marketing is great for newbies that can write or those that have some money to invest in having someone write for them. Content is still king and it will be for a very long time.

Benjamin Ehinger

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morninjoi 14 years ago

Newbies need to write articles-for themselves. It gives room for practice which make them better at it. How else could a newbie ever get to really understand the real value of articles if he has not tried some writing himself?
They can later outsource that aspect in order to focus on other IM functions.
I started my IM journey by writing articles and it was a great learning curve.
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Shirlyn

14 years ago

Hi, To write something according to niche of our website is a great way to generate backlink for our website but it is true that some newbies have hard time to write an article by following all the protocols defined by a article submission site.

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Colin Theriot

14 years ago

Originally Posted by cosmokid

There's always going to be a place for "junk" articles that aren't written particularly well. They're good for quickie backlinks or for junk type sites where quantity is more important than quality (i.e. Adsense type sites.)

True - the funny part is that the people who think they want quantity over quality would actually do a lot better if they upped the quality even just a little. What good is the ranking in the SERPs for the article if the article is gibberish that makes the site it's on look terrible.

Originally Posted by cosmokid

Then there are sites where the owner is selling a product and needs to be more careful with everything associated with his or her "brand." Those need to have higher quality articles on them and all article submissions to directories, obviously, should also be of higher quality if the product owner wants to have a reputation for good content and come across as "reliable."

This is where the real money can be made by writers in IM. Find people who need GOOD content. They're out there. If you want to make the MOST money as a writer, learn to write marketing copy. Not only will it serve you, but you can sell it as a premium service. Like, MUCHO premium. Once you can write like that, you don't have to compete with junk writers to sell articles to junk site builders. You can beat them at their own game if your content converts better than theirs does.

Originally Posted by cosmokid

One thing nobody has written about in this fun thread is the world of print media and the serious decline in rates for experienced writers. With so many publications going out of print or filing for bankruptcy, .30 cents per word is about the top rate I and my fellow newspaper columnists are seeing these days. And there's no room to ask for raises like you could back in the glorious days of the dot.com "boom" circa 1999-2001.

Print is dead. For real this time. It might get resurrected later, but right now, it's on its last legs.

Originally Posted by cosmokid

If you can write, even if you write terribly, there are ways to make money from your writing. But you have to be creative. For me, affiliate marketing and self-publishing books has been the way I gain maximum buck for my writing skills.

Amen, sister.

Originally Posted by cosmokid

Even so, I've found I need to learn how to "underwrite" and use simpler language and vocabulary to get the sales numbers I really want. We're all skimmers these days, and fancy pants words turn most potential buyers (and readers!) off, I find. So I always have to dumb everything down a bit, which is annoying!

Now this I have to disagree with. I think the internet is big enough that you can largely be yourself and find a support-level commercial audience who will like you for you, fancy pants and all.

The web continuously proves this.

Also, clarity and brevity aren't necessarily ONLY about dumbing things down. I think of it as a game - like trying to fit a complicated expression into a haiku or something. It's a game of words.

Note: I ended up as a writer accidentally, and never had an ambition to pursue it until after someone was paying me a lot to do it - perhaps that gives me a weirder perspective than most.

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Antonios 14 years ago

I think that the basic problems with writing are endangered more at present with the social sites.

Those sites require writing. Our kids and other family members, friends and neighbors live there.

Are there writing skills improving?

Have you seen how, specially our kids, are using grammar in their posts?

U r m bst frnd!

And several other writing forms that I don't recognize.

Of course, with all those masters and doctoral (Ph.D's) degrees being offered online from accredited universities, one supposes that writing skills are improving.

Masters's thesis and doctoral dissertations require almost perfect writing skills, since a word incorrectly used could mean something else in those research papers.

Probably, these students use editing services that sometimes ask for a $100 fee per page. A 100 page paper could cost $10,000 just for editing.

Some might pay to have the whole thing done for them.

Now going in the direction of a more generic public, article writing has become the in-thing of internet marketers and with thousands of IM prospects entering the field probably daily, competition is exhausting.

How can you have time to correct your grammar and synthaxis if you have to produce ten articles per day?

And there are thousands of articles on the same subject, you have to continuously research to find something different to write about almost in any niche.

Are there any unexplored niches left?

And then we have the millions of non-English IM prospects from Europe, Asia, and Africa entering the English language IM arena.

I am example of it. I have English as a second language. Spanish is my native language. And I have a master's degree from an English speaking university (Norwich U., Vermont, USA).

But, even in Spanish I need an editor for my professional writing.

Another thing is that "marketing writing" is different from academic writing.

A good copywriter has to violate "academic" writing to psychologically reach his/her market. ROI depends on emotional triggers not on logic.

Sincerely,

Antonios
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RashmiP 14 years ago

Good post. It's going to be difficult to get nice contents/articles these days.
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alwaysready 14 years ago

Hii ! very spontaneous i thinkkk !! hah, but loved some points you were talking about , wonder why calculator costs 75$ lolll
Any way , just wanted to tell you , i have been dealing with this for months , and every single person in this field says , writing article requires reading , you can do all that , and be a good writer , but just try to read the max of articles , that way , you will get more ideas , more topics , more expressions , more tricks and skilsss !!! good Luck with it any way
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JohnKremer

14 years ago

Even in my market of book authors I'm surprised how many don't know how to write a great article. So I can understand your point.

Given that, article marketing is a great way to market on the Internet.

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ladywriter

14 years ago

It's worth noting that these poorly written articles are being bought and used by someone. If what they're doing works, they will continue.

I think that's why people tell newbies to write, I think we've all seen that some people will buy anything. They're selling pajama jeans now for pete's sake lol.

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Zentech

14 years ago

You're right. Writing well is not easy, and not everyone can do it.

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NeilPM

14 years ago

I have to agree! I am 17, I go to college. When I was in highschool, my courseworks(project) weren't written well, getting a C+ on that coursework makes me proud of myself, lol. Lecturers do say I could improve my writting, but I can't, just can't. I've also paid a monthly subscription on a coursework membership website, to learn how to reference properly and how to start etc... Given that, should I still do article marketing?

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paulie888

14 years ago

Originally Posted by NeilPM

I have to agree! I am 17, I go to college. When I was in highschool, my courseworks(project) weren't written well, getting a C+ on that coursework makes me proud of myself, lol. Lecturers do say I could improve my writting, but I can't, just can't. I've also paid a monthly subscription on a coursework membership website, to learn how to reference properly and how to start etc... Given that, should I still do article marketing?

It has been said that most articles that are required in the IM marketplace need to be fairly simple and written at an eighth grade level of comprehension. This technically means that anyone who has passed high school should be able to write articles.

However, this is sadly not the case, as many people who have passed high school don't seem to be able to use proper grammar and spelling in their articles.

Since you're in college, you should be able to do to this, but judging from your post above, you'd really need to pay extra attention to your spelling and grammar, and also keep from writing too informally.

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Buildingfutures

14 years ago

I make it a deal of mine to try and read a new book every month. OR at least read two books I own every month. I've done so since I was in high school and found the wonderful universe of Warhammer 40,000.

I read books with decades of history behind them, and that are a tabletop game to boot.

I read vampire books when they weren't all about some ageless vampire falling in love with a teenage girl 'Because she's different'. Back before a vampire book was more than some little girls choice between necrophilia and bestiality.

Sorry, that's probably the bourbon talking. Or Not. I'm not a fan of these new age books coming out, if its noticeable.

I love reading something that will paint a picture in my mind, and leave it there.

Laugh at me all you want, but when I was younger and in high school, I actually collaborated with people on a regular occasion to create stories (commonly known as 'role-playing'. I did D&D and text-based). I have one friend of mine to thank for my ability to use grammar in a much better way than I used to. She wouldn't let me submit my parts of the story if it wasn't correct!

I don't see a lot of these kids just coming out of high school knowing how to write well. Why? Because they're not taught how to write well. The majority of high schools in my area of Texas don't even teach anything past what is called a TAKS test. It's a standardized test that determines if a kid will graduate or not. Think of the SAT's but dumbed down to an almost 7th grade level. At least, that's how it felt when I did this test to graduate. These kids aren't the least bit prepared for college and the level of writing required of them when they reach it.

Yes illiteracy is down, but what are they reading? It's been a good while since I saw a kid carrying around DUNE, or The Hobbit, or 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea. Most would ask if I meant the movie if I mention the last one.

I really do hate writing my own articles, it just isn't as fun as writing a story with characters that I can make come alive on my pages. I don't think I'm a very good article writer at all, but I do enjoy reading my own stories.

Not sure where I was going to go next, but I'll leave it there for now.

-Sean

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Chris Worner

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Buildingfutures

I read vampire books when they weren't all about some ageless vampire falling in love with a teenage girl 'Because she's different'. Back before a vampire book was more than some little girls choice between necrophilia and bestiality.

hahaha, if I was the partner of that women who wrote twilight and admitted that these books were based on her own personal fantasies then I would be highly embarrassed.

Chris

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Lauryn

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Buildingfutures

I read vampire books when they weren't all about some ageless vampire falling in love with a teenage girl 'Because she's different'. Back before a vampire book was more than some little girls choice between necrophilia and bestiality.

Sorry, that's probably the bourbon talking. Or Not. I'm not a fan of these new age books coming out, if its noticeable.

I love reading something that will paint a picture in my mind, and leave it there.

-Sean

Your post, as well as that of the poster above you, was great and I really enjoyed it... but the bolded had me laugh (although if I were that teen girl, I'd pick the beast!) :p

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TimG

14 years ago

Originally Posted by paulie888

It has been said that most articles that are required in the IM marketplace need to be fairly simple and written at an eighth grade level of comprehension. This technically means that anyone who has passed high school should be able to write articles.

However, this is sadly not the case, as many people who have passed high school don't seem to be able to use proper grammar and spelling in their articles.

Since you're in college, you should be able to do to this, but judging from your post above, you'd really need to pay extra attention to your spelling and grammar, and also keep from writing too informally.

My friend, that is because of the sad state of some of the schools in the United States. It is almost criminal what is taking place and in most cases it is not the teacher's fault.

I'm particular disturbed with the California School system. Fortunately the school my children attend is top notch or I wouldn't hesitate to move to a community that has a school system that actually educates the kids that attend.

Respectfully,
Tim

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NeilPM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimG

My friend, that is because of the sad state of some of the schools in the United States. It is almost criminal what is taking place and in most cases it is not the teacher's fault.

I'm particular disturbed with the California School system. Fortunately the school my children attend is top notch or I wouldn't hesitate to move to a community that has a school system that actually educates the kids that attend.

Respectfully,
Tim

If this was actually for me...
I'm from the UK, I don't think schools here have bad systems. I have been to 2 different schools (work locations for parents). The recent one I moved to, I must say was pretty bad. I had to drop 4 subjects leaving me 6 GCSE's (but I only passed 4) because they didn't have the subjects that I took from my previous school, I chose them over a grammar school which was harder to get in to, because I didn't want to go back to Year 11.

Lecturers swears, doesn't teach, doesn't help and doesn't tell you about a 50 pages long project till the very last month of the school year. I could've had 7/8 passed GCSE subjects written on my CV if I were to apply for a job or uni!

I'm now doing Electrical Engineering in college hoping to get A-levels to get in to uni.

-Neil

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Marvin Johnston

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimG

My friend, that is because of the sad state of some of the schools in the United States. It is almost criminal what is taking place and in most cases it is not the teacher's fault.

A good friend of mine, who passed away a number of years ago, was a visionary in many ways. He was a writer and academic who thought that one of the most important skills a person could have is the ability to write, i.e. communicate.

He started a project in several of our local schools somewhere around 1990 or so to include online English classes where students would do their writing online. One classroom had what was probably one of the first school computer labs.

The *biggest* problem he faced then was getting teachers out of the mindset that refused to do anything other than "it has always been done this way." He tended to get the support of the school management.

It appears that political correctness has taken over the schools now, and sadly, that is to the detriment of the students

.

BTW, his name was Dr. Harvey Wheeler, co-author along with Dr Eugene Burdict of the book Fail Safe. And that book has a *really* interesting history of how it finally got made into a movie. I kept asking him to put it online, and I think he finally did that maybe 10 - 12 years ago.

EDIT - Here is a link to some comments by Harvey about the book and times:

http://web.archive.org/web/200106030...er/vIIn32.html

Pulling this back to the OP, I'm not sure if I agree that article marketing is not a good place for newcomers. Writing, i.e. communicating, is a really good skill to learn. And article marketing is a great way to get feedback on both writing and on what people want to read.

Marvin

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Colin Theriot

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

Writing, i.e. communicating, is a really good skill to learn. And article marketing is a great way to get feedback on both writing and on what people want to read.

I agree with your first statement, but what is traditionally known as "article marketing" is in fact a very poor way to get feedback because all you have are conversion numbers. Blogging, emailing, and forum posting, all with an eye towards SPECIFICALLY eliciting feedback is a much more efficient way to learn those necessary writing skills. Once you have them, article marketing will become incredibly more effective for both you and your writing clients.

Thanks for the book recommendation, too.

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TimG

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Colin Theriot

I agree with your first statement, but what is traditionally known as "article marketing" is in fact a very poor way to get feedback because all you have are conversion numbers. Blogging, emailing, and forum posting, all with an eye towards SPECIFICALLY eliciting feedback is a much more efficient way to learn those necessary writing skills. Once you have them, article marketing will become incredibly more effective for both you and your writing clients.

Thanks for the book recommendation, too.

Colin,
Your postings throughout this thread have been wonderful but the one above truly breaks down the real essence of writing. Article marketing tends to get clumped into a single thought process of merely writing and submitting to article directories when clearly there is much more to the whole process.

When an emphasis is placed on creating high quality articles that provide some true value there is a methamorphosis that takes place because now you have content that can be added to a blog or posted within a forum or enjoy a syndication explosion.

Low grade/quality writing does little more than fill up space but high grade/quality writing opens the doorway to more exposure, more traffic, better branding and higher income/profit potential.

Respectfully,
Tim

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Marvin Johnston

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Colin Theriot

I agree with your first statement, but what is traditionally known as "article marketing" is in fact a very poor way to get feedback because all you have are conversion numbers. Blogging, emailing, and forum posting, all with an eye towards SPECIFICALLY eliciting feedback is a much more efficient way to learn those necessary writing skills. Once you have them, article marketing will become incredibly more effective for both you and your writing clients.

Thanks for the book recommendation, too.

I first started posting on forums back in the BBS days, and could always get some incredible feedback when I put my mind to it ... kind of like your sig

.

One of the other benefits of forum posting is learning how to type. I had to learn how to type with both hands in self defense ... typing with two fingers left me forgetting the point I was trying to make by the end of the first couple of words.

I'm not convinced that article marketing, i.e. writing articles, is a bad way to get feedback. A lot of views doesn't necessarily mean a high CTR, but it does mean that the title pulled people in.

And a comparison between the article views and the CTR gives a good idea of the selling power of the copy.

BTW, when I first met Harvey, I had no idea who he was. We went back and forth on the BBS. I only first met him because of a computer problem, and invited him to bring it over so I could look at it. When he gave me an autographed copy of Fail-Safe, things fell into place.

Marvin

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Gail_Curran

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

Pulling this back to the OP, I'm not sure if I agree that article marketing is not a good place for newcomers. Writing, i.e. communicating, is a really good skill to learn. And article marketing is a great way to get feedback on both writing and on what people want to read.

I would agree that writing is a valuable skill to learn. The problem is that some newcomers aren't interested in learning to be better writers. A lot of them think they are already good enough to charge for their services. And far too many don't care about providing quality work to their clients. All they care about is getting paid.

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Colin Theriot

14 years ago

The best thing for a newbie to do is to get a blog, and a list and an account on this forum and build a following from writing good posts, and link to your blog in your sig. Post good stuff there too, and from the blog, get people to subscribe. When you've gotten good enough so that you get new subscribers whenever you post, THEN you're probably good enough to write articles that will actually work for you.

When you start out just writing articles without understanding what they're for, or how to get attention, how to persuade, etc. they won't do much work for you, and they won't work well for people you'd sell them to, either.

Also, note that nothing I said above has to do with being a "good" writer in the technical sense. It's a whole different kind of skill than what you traditionally think of in reference to the way we're taught to write. Think of music - the marketing writer is NOT the composer, but rather the jazz improvisationist. We don't need perfect and poetic - we need sexy and fast.

And the way you get good at that kind of writing and communicating is by practicing directly on an audience you can interact with. You don't get enough feedback with "article marketing" while you're learning it. You could end up great at getting rankings while sucking at making conversions. Work on the conversion part of the equation first, THEN by the time you get good at the ranking and traffic part, you'll REALLY be able to make money.

And when you can write articles that actually CONVERT, then you can charge a LOT more than what most people think of when it comes to getting paid for articles. I saw someone say they don't charge more than $10 for a 500 word article - I usually charge $300 to $500 to write an email or blog post.

Marketing writing is a great skill to learn, the ultimate skill really - but you don't learn it well or fast by doing what is called "article marketing" - that's something you do with your content once you're good at making it.

At least, IMHO, but what do I know?

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Colin Theriot

The best thing for a newbie to do is to get a blog, and a list and an account on this forum and build a following from writing good posts, and link to your blog in your sig.

I'm sorry, when did this become something so easy you could handwave it?

Just build a following. That's all. Get popular. Make lots of people like you.

Yeah, yeah, "go read the Dale Carnegie book." But let's not forget that this idea only works for a certain kind of person. What worked best for you and what will work best for others are two different things.

Most of us are telling newbies "do what I did." But where, exactly, is the reminder that maybe... just maybe... we should find out who this newbie is and what he wants before telling him where to start?

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Colin Theriot

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I'm sorry, when did this become something so easy you could handwave it?

I;d offer to teach you but you already know how to do it.

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Just build a following. That's all. Get popular. Make lots of people like you.

Yeah, pretty much.

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Yeah, yeah, "go read the Dale Carnegie book." But let's not forget that this idea only works for a certain kind of person. What worked best for you and what will work best for others are two different things.

Well the only thing I can honestly share any wisdom about is my own experience. I express it publicly, frequently, and as straightforward as I can. But by doing so, I truly think that it serves to draw to me the kind of people that see themselves in me. These are the people I'm actually going to be able to help, because we click naturally. Plus, it's very easy for me to serve that kind of customer because all I ever have to do is be myself.

There's no trick to it - put yourself out there, show it to as many people as possible, and make them decide "yes, more" or "no, thanks" - that's it.

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Most of us are telling newbies "do what I did." But where, exactly, is the reminder that maybe... just maybe... we should find out who this newbie is and what he wants before telling him where to start?

I put what I have to offer out there - if they want it, I share it - if they don't, there are plenty of other footsteps to follow in. I'm not smart or experienced enough to offer a custom solution for everyone. I'd feel like bull**** counseling someone to do something I had no experience with myself.

But then, I tend to approach marketing differently than you (not that anyone's doing it 'wrong'). I don't ask what people want, I make them want what I have. I make my best case for it. They can follow or not, but I don't have the badwidth or enthusiasm it would take to try and please everyone perfectly.

I'm Mr. Miyagi. I teach, you learn, no questions.

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Buildingfutures 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Colin Theriot

I'm Mr. Miyagi. I teach, you learn, no questions.

But Mr. Miyagi! I'm tired of waxing off. When do I learn kung fu?
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- Colin Theriot 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Buildingfutures
  
  But Mr. Miyagi! I'm tired of waxing off. When do I learn kung fu?
  
  Trick question. Mr. Miyagi teach KARATE, not Kung Fu. Your punishment is to SAND THE FLOOR.
  
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  Buildingfutures 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Colin Theriot
  
  Trick question. Mr. Miyagi teach KARATE, not Kung Fu. Your punishment is to SAND THE FLOOR.
  
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  CDarklock 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Buildingfutures
  
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  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
  
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  Lauryn 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  good one ... I tend to usually prefer this one... classic
  
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  I Go Hard = "Slanguage" for putting forth a lot of effort.
  
  Don't be an arse and try to flip something you clearly have no knowledge of against me.
  
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  CDarklock 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Lauryn
  
  classic
  
  We are slowly but surely identifying the /b/tards here.
  
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  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
  
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  Buildingfutures 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  We are slowly but surely identifying the /b/tards here.
  
  I think /b/tards are everywhere and in everyone. They just don't know it yet.
  
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  CDarklock 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Buildingfutures
  
  I think /b/tards are everywhere and in everyone. They just don't know it yet.
  
  "Got any /b/tard in you?"
  
  "No."
  
  "Want some?"
  
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  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
  
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  Buildingfutures 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  "Got any /b/tard in you?"
  
  "No."
  
  "Want some?"
  
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  CDarklock 14 years ago
  
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  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
  
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bigbrian76

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I'm sorry, when did this become something so easy you could handwave it?

Just build a following. That's all. Get popular. Make lots of people like you.

Yeah, yeah, "go read the Dale Carnegie book." But let's not forget that this idea only works for a certain kind of person. What worked best for you and what will work best for others are two different things.

Most of us are telling newbies "do what I did." But where, exactly, is the reminder that maybe... just maybe... we should find out who this newbie is and what he wants before telling him where to start?

Most definitely, and I agree with both of you fellas wholeheartedly - especially about "doing what I did". My report that I just released talks about these very steps, just the basic fundamentals to build your following. Colin nailed it with his approach, as it is the same approach I share with others, in addition to finding ways to make money on their own. I can never tell someone what to do, nor will I ever. But I show them how they can do some of the same things I did, and leave the money-making piece up to them.

The key I share with newbies is this: Find someone you can identify with and chat with them. Breathe their air. Drink their water. I think the best thing we can do is empower newcomers by recognizing their internal talents and find a way to convert those talents into extra cash. Everyone has their own way of doing things - all we can do is help lay the groundwork and then let those folks run with it and move on.

Cheers,
Brian

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Ernie Lo

14 years ago

Most people from the younger generation CAN write well enough to produce quality articles. Heck all we did at school was write, write write. Sure most people aren't grammar pros but who gives a crap. A grammar error here and there nobody cares or probably even notices.

I think you're confusing Indian writers who write for $1 per articles with us.

Yes the good old days were better than now I agree, but the rest of your post I don't sorry.

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Alexa Smith Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ernie Lonardo

Sure most people aren't grammar pros but who gives a crap.

Literate, English-speaking customers searching online, wanting to buy something, with their credit-cards in their hands, who will respond favourably to a "legitimate-looking", well-presented, literate site. Grammatical errors on websites can cost marketers real money. My entire family and circle of friends won't buy or opt in through a site with grammatical errors because they detract from the credibility. There are millions of people like this, worldwide, and we're really good customers. My case rests.
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Hexor

14 years ago

Yes, they must have some experience from internet marketting before so they have an idea on what he is writing, and he must also know the keywords he will use for his article writing. Suggest to go to odesk and sell your articles, and if it is appreciated, you are a good writer.

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rosetrees

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ouroboros

Everytime someone new comes on here and begs and pleads for advice on how best to "make money online fast" everybody says "start writng articles", its a fast way to make money and break into IM.

I couldn't agree more that it is bad advice to give many newbies.

I usually avoid these threads and I think you'll find that most people who post that advice are not, let's say, the longer standing, more respected members of this forum. Often it's newbies or low post counters just posting for the links. I doubt if many, or any, of them actually make a living from article writing.

100% Agree and I am stuck in the Huston Airport and have been Drinking all day while dealing with all the delays so we will just say Beer #7

I'd stop now. Any more and you'll be spending even longer at the airport as they won't let you on the plane!!!

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dohfiddle

14 years ago

I dont really agree with any of your post year on year booksales have been imcreasing by around 22% in the UK since 2006 and looking through the major article directories for the most part the articles I have read have been ok.I wonder if when someone is researching a product to buy online do they want a Dickens novel about it ? I dont think so in the end these are different times to the 1950s for the most part its just a numbers game.

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PhoebeSmellyCat

14 years ago

Originally Posted by dohfiddle

I dont really agree with any of your post year on year booksales have been imcreasing by around 22% in the UK since 2006 and looking through the major article directories for the most part the articles I have read have been ok.I wonder if when someone is researching a product to buy online do they want a Dickens novel about it ? I dont think so in the end these are different times to the 1950s for the most part its just a numbers game.

I'm not gonna say it...somebody jump in here

Does anybody get the irony of this post?

Forget the beer, where's a good cup of coffee when you need it?

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Richard Van

14 years ago

Originally Posted by dohfiddle

I dont really agree with any of your post year on year booksales have been imcreasing by around 22% in the UK since 2006 and looking through the major article directories for the most part the articles I have read have been ok.I wonder if when someone is researching a product to buy online do they want a Dickens novel about it ? I dont think so in the end these are different times to the 1950s for the most part its just a numbers game.

Book sales have been increasing but our population has exploded. It's all relative.

looking through the major article directories for the most part the articles I have read have been ok

So nothing great or outstanding then, just ok?

It also still doesn't detract from a very good point made by Alexa that peoples ability to write correct grammatical English is waning very quickly. Which, with the greatest respect and no offense intended at all, you have demonstrated.

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Jessica21

14 years ago

Well writing is a good idea but once you get familiar with the content creation technique. once you are done and familiar with the techniques of creating useful and informative content then you can switch and start writing!

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wtatlas 14 years ago

Perhaps the proliferation of the advice to newbies to start article writing is partly responsible for the standard of writing we see on the web today?
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JackDeRips

14 years ago

I would recommend Sharecash. It's the place I started a few years ago and it has thought me some really good lessons that I still use.

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Martin Salter

14 years ago

Hmmm...

The issues here are many.

(1) Article writing has its competition like any other freelance market. You can get a minisite designer for $7 and one for over $300, but there is a market for both and all inbetween.

(2) Writing is not such a bad place for a newbie to start... Provided that it is an interest they wish to continue with, or learn to make money in. It can also help them to build a list, meet new people, learn the ropes, earn a little extra cash

(3) You can always research niche markets, then sell article packs rather than work for $10 per article. Create 20 articles in one Niche, sell them at just $10 per pack with an exclusive deal of only 50 ever sold, and you make yourself $500 rather than $200.

Release more, or reduce the articles in the pack for same price and your profit/time ratios increase.

Use it to "finance" your business start up. Even if you only make $100 per month writing articles. If you use this to build your business by outsourcing other areas you are weak in, then you can build your income from small beginnings.

Good to see some debate on the open market situation

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JohnMcCabe 14 years ago

I'm often amazed at what passes for 'good writing' these days.

When I lived in Nebraska, there was a museum nearby that we took visitors to see. Part of the museum was an intact country schoolhouse (think 'Little House on the Prairie' with all grades in one room). As part of the exhibit, you could read pages from long-dead students' essays.

The writing of even fifth and sixth graders would put many college graduates to shame.

My wife laughs at me when I try to read the newspapers, because I'm always complaining that the editors are idiots that no longer edit beyond making sure the copy fits around the ads.
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- Buildingfutures 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe
  
  The writing of even fifth and sixth graders would put many college graduates to shame.
  
  It's the degradation of society as a whole, John, to know that way back when, a sixth graders ability to read and write trumps a college student's ability.
  
  We're not a society of people who give a rats ass anymore about proper grammar and spelling in what we do. I don't read the paper for the exact reason you state. At the most, I look at the classifieds cause I'm always looking for cheap stuff.
  
  I worry for future generations, and I hope it doesn't degrade to the point where fifth and sixth grade writing will trump college students writing in the future.
  
  -Sean
  
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Lauryn

14 years ago

I agree with some of your points. If you have better quality writing and have the time to do it yourself, then do it yourself. There's nothing wrong with that.

I would love to write articles for people, but I want to improve my writing, and atop of this, I really am not sure how "good" of a writer I am when I compare myself to others.

I'm an 80s baby... and have always loved books and knowledge. I know plenty of others who do as well and it's really all about finding the writer worth their salt and paying that. When I want articles.... it's easier to outsource to a writer overseas who is working hard for their dollar and wants to learn and asks for feedback. I give it if I have the time and patience.

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Richard Van

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lauryn

I agree with some of your points. If you have better quality writing and have the time to do it yourself, then do it yourself. There's nothing wrong with that.

I would love to write articles for people, but I want to improve my writing, and atop of this, I really am not sure how "good" of a writer I am when I compare myself to others.

I'm an 80s baby... and have always loved books and knowledge. I know plenty of others who do as well and it's really all about finding the writer worth their salt and paying that. When I want articles.... it's easier to outsource to a writer overseas who is working hard for their dollar and wants to learn and asks for feedback. I give it if I have the time and patience.

I agree with with that.

I've written a few articles and can write fairly well I think. I understand buyer psychology too but I have this fear that says "are you as good as so and so" and I tend to back off and pay others to do it for me. I've been doing that for a while.

All well and good but to be honest, I know, unless I take the leap and try my best, I'll never know. That's not to say I haven't written articles, copy etc but I'm just not convinced I'm that good.

Having said that, a very wise man here once told me, the best writers are their own worst critics.

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Lauryn

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

I agree with with that.

I've written a few articles and can write fairly well I think. I understand buyer psychology too but I have this fear that says "are you as good as so and so" and I tend to back off and pay others to do it for me. I've been doing that for a while.

All well and good but to be honest, I know, unless I take the leap and try my best, I'll never know. That's not to say I haven't written articles, copy etc but I'm just not convinced I'm that good.

Having said that, a very wise man here once told me, the best writers are their own worst critics.

Considering I've written for 3 magazines and contribute to both Break and Demand... lol I can definitely agree with that! Grammar is my sticking point and I love to learn. The Copywriter's forum is great here!

I guess 2-11 is where we both challenge ourselves to write for others or work under a copywriter?

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Richard Van

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lauryn

Considering I've written for 3 magazines and contribute to both Break and Demand... lol I can definitely agree with that! Grammar is my sticking point and I love to learn. The Copywriter's forum is great here!

I guess 2-11 is where we both challenge ourselves to write for others or work under a copywriter?

Actually it's quite weird. I have a knack of getting/paying people, that do things better than me, to do them. I currently have a pretty successful business.

As I'm getting older though, I realise I want to do those things to, in case I lose the knack

. One of my goals this year is to get over my technophobia and actually build sites etc and actually write at least one article a day and test how they do. I won't stop what I already do but I'd like to challenge myself.

Having been a great watcher of Alexa Smith I think my goal is to write for me, to be honest, I can see some serious benefits to that. That's just my opinion though and wish you great luck this year Lauryn.

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brekeke

14 years ago

hey! nice post. thanks for that!

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Richard Van

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Colin Theriot

The best thing for a newbie to do is to get a blog, and a list and an account on this forum and build a following from writing good posts, and link to your blog in your sig.

Do you mean like this Colin?....

Originally Posted by brekeke

hey! nice post. thanks for that!

8 posts above I believe.

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Colin Theriot 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Do you mean like this Colin?....

8 posts above I believe.

Something like that, lol. More like the post right above that one. I only talks it because I walks it.
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Makati Bars

14 years ago

For me, article writing is still a good idea for newbies if they are taking the "link bait" route as opposed to relying on the engines to crawl random blog depositories.....

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ScottieScott

14 years ago

Ok, here is my $0.02, even though it will probably get lost in the shuffle.

I totally disagree that newbies should not start out with article writing because they don't write well. That is like saying that newbies shouldn't get into IM because they have never done it before and don't know what they are doing.

Aren't there about a billion threads on this forum telling newbies that they need to take action, check the results of that action, and change/improve their approach?

How does one get better at writing articles? WRITE MORE ARTICLES.

I am a newbie, but I also have a MBA from one of the top 15 business schools in the U.S. Can I write well? There are many that are better. Do I produce junk? Absolutely not! I also have a problem with grammar, circular thinking, no point, and poor writing in general. I re-write any PLR article that I get, not just to correct grammar, but to improve it and expand on the idea.

Maybe your thread should read, "Article Writing is NOT good advice for newbies who can't write well."

Then give some tips on how to write better, or find someone who can pen the articles they need for them.

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JohnMcCabe

14 years ago

People, people, people...

This thread is starting to drift...

No one is saying that newbies should not write articles.

The point was that newbies who don't know how to write shouldn't be learning by selling articles. Unless said newbie is straight with the potential buyer from the beginning, selling a skill you don't have is taking money under false pretenses.

Nor is it good for such "desperate" newbies to get crushed when no one wants what they offer because they are unknown.

(I wonder what the over/under is on someone posting that it's okay to sell skills you don't have by outsourcing - another skill most newbies don't have.)

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Colin Theriot 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ScottieScott

Then give some tips on how to write better, or find someone who can pen the articles they need for them.

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

(I wonder what the over/under is on someone posting that it's okay to sell skills you don't have by outsourcing - another skill most newbies don't have.)

Missed it by THAT much.

But yeah, that's pretty much what I think, too John. Selling non-sales copy is not really a way to learn IM, and like you said, it's just not sensible.

If you want to learn the core skills of marketing, make a product, and convince someone to buy it. The things you will need to learn to accomplish that simple goal are the golden lessons of marketing and it has nothing to do with articles or PPC or traffic or any of that. Conversion - learn it. Everything else works better when you can create conversions.
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bigbrian76

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

People, people, people...

This thread is starting to drift...

No one is saying that newbies should not write articles.

The point was that newbies who don't know how to write shouldn't be learning by selling articles. Unless said newbie is straight with the potential buyer from the beginning, selling a skill you don't have is taking money under false pretenses.

Nor is it good for such "desperate" newbies to get crushed when no one wants what they offer because they are unknown.

(I wonder what the over/under is on someone posting that it's okay to sell skills you don't have by outsourcing - another skill most newbies don't have.)

John -

You make a great point. Goes right back to my original point, of asking anyone who pays you to write articles for their candid and explicit feedback. You will never know if you are a good writer or bad writer if no one gives you feedback, right? I have to emphasize the need for testimonials to share - and keep those files you write handy, to show as examples.

My recommendation for new writers is to start on Fiverr. Build a reputation using their automated feedback system. Then you can come to places like here, to seek out folks who need articles written. Just know that when you begin, you stand no chance of commanding top dollar prices.

I will add this.....article spinner software? Not a fan of it. I have a certain writing style, which is evident in my blog - and posts on here - and a spinner or rewriter would almost certainly alter my style to the point where it is obvious I did not write the article - and to me, that is as good as a Copyscape FAIL..

Everyone has to get their start somewhere and somehow. Start small, take lower pay while you earn your reputation. The $$$$ will come in time - just have patience.

Cheers,
Brian

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Gail_Curran

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

No one is saying that newbies should not write articles.

The point was that newbies who don't know how to write shouldn't be learning by selling articles. Unless said newbie is straight with the potential buyer from the beginning, selling a skill you don't have is taking money under false pretenses.

THANK YOU. I would go a step further and call it unethical. If you want to sell a service such as article writing, website building, press release writing, or whatever, you should freaking learn how to do it first.

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ScottieScott

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

People, people, people...

This thread is starting to drift...

No one is saying that newbies should not write articles.

The point was that newbies who don't know how to write shouldn't be learning by selling articles. Unless said newbie is straight with the potential buyer from the beginning, selling a skill you don't have is taking money under false pretenses.

Nor is it good for such "desperate" newbies to get crushed when no one wants what they offer because they are unknown.

(I wonder what the over/under is on someone posting that it's okay to sell skills you don't have by outsourcing - another skill most newbies don't have.)

John,

Maybe I read it wrong, but the very first sentence of this thread says that newbies shouldn't WRITE articles, and even the title of the thread is "Article Writing is NOT good advice for newbies." It doesn't say "Article SELLING....." I took that as meaning newbies shouldn't write articles as a means of marketing but I suppose it could have meant that they shouldn't be written for others outsourcing articles.

In the past, 99% of the time I have heard that newbies should get started by article marketing. I have rarely heard anyone say "become a writer to sell articles to others looking for outsourced material - it doesn't matter if you can write." If that is the case, people who can't write shouldn't choose writing as their business model.

Scott

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JohnMcCabe

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ScottieScott

John,

Maybe I read it wrong, but the very first sentence of this thread says that newbies shouldn't WRITE articles, and even the title of the thread is "Article Writing is NOT good advice for newbies." It doesn't say "Article SELLING....." I took that as meaning newbies shouldn't write articles as a means of marketing but I suppose it could have meant that they shouldn't be written for others outsourcing articles.

In the past, 99% of the time I have heard that newbies should get started by article marketing. I have rarely heard anyone say "become a writer to sell articles to others looking for outsourced material - it doesn't matter if you can write." If that is the case, people who can't write shouldn't choose writing as their business model.

Scott

You know what, Scott? You are absolutely right. For anyone late to the party, here's the first sentence:

Everytime someone new comes on here and begs and pleads for advice on how best to "make money online fast" everybody says "start writng articles", its a fast way to make money and break into IM.

Funny how what we read or see right before something else can color how we see that thing...

If you go to this thread:

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...desperate.html

You'll find that a pretty fair percentage of the suggestions are to "write and sell articles". More than one person recommends it as a way to get paid while you learn.

Whether you advise getting started with article marketing or selling writing services for quick cash, the bottom line is still the same. If you don't have the skill, you have to develop it before you can expect to get positive results.

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alcymart

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ouroboros

Everytime someone new comes on here and begs and pleads for advice on how best to "make money online fast" everybody says "start writng articles", its a fast way to make money and break into IM.

I'm going to piss a lot of people off with this, but the truth is 99% of these newbies couldn't write an article if they had the outline in front of them and a "miracle article writer" software to create the content.

I grew up in a generation that valued the written word. I was fortunate because my mother embedded in me the need to be able to read and understand by the time I started school in the early 60's. My fondest memories of my childhood were all pretty much centered around the library and the vast accumulation of knowledge that could be accessed there.

I'll never forget the time when I was in the 5th grade and suddenly we didn't have to rely on the once weekly class trip to the school library, we were free to go every day before and after class. I read "20,000 Leagues under the Sea" (Jules Verne) in one night!

I'm dating myself a bit, but I hope it helps me make my point. I grew up when B&W TV was the norm....slide rules...my first calculator (in college) cost almost $75 and could ADD, SUBTRACT, MULTIPLY, and DIVIDE.

People don't read anymore, everything is handed to them. Their computer entertains them, their phone does everything but wipe their butt, and hundreds of channels of satelite tv keep them fat and on their as..couches.

(Have you ever dammed a creek with rocks and sand to make a swimming hole?)

Fact is most of the current generation couldn't write their way out of a paper bag.

And I'm not talking about "non english speaking or writing", most of those people are intelligent and try, they just don't understand the many correct variations of the english language.

I'm so sick of trying to find good written content...

Its a pain in the ass, but I'll write my own content from here on out, damned if I'll post some of this rehashed drivel at an article site just to get a link, what if a "real live human being" sees that crap and thinks I wrote it?

I'll be dammned if I'll take that chance with my reputation.

Steve

(sorry for the ramble, I'm on my 4th beer)

Hi Steve. I agree with you on the part where you state that article marketing should not be the first step in a newbies arsenal in trying to earn money online.

Let me add that to write an article, one must have to the very least some knowledge on the subject.

That being said, my suggestion to a newbie would be to instead gain knowledge on subjects and later on write an article about that subject, but since few will ever go that far as to gaining that knowledge due to laziness or not excited enough to move forward.

Thus I then recommend a newbie to find motivation not in Money, but in a different field that relates to eventually earning online. Web site building, killer ad tactics, color psychology etc...

But the bottom line is "Knowledge". It doesn't come cheap. One must be motivated enough to learn on these subjects instead of being focused only on the money aspect.

My students who were solely focused on money, most have failed. Sure, Warren Buffet is an exception or is it? Mr Buffet's love is in making money, you need to love money more than anything else to follow him and have the same success.

In fact, Money is the last thing on my mind. I pretty much only get excited learning new fields that relate to earning online, and that's why I became a teacher.

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wildturkey

14 years ago

I didn't read the thread so it may have devolved into trolling and arguing, but I had an idea based on the whole theory that the quality of writers out there is poor:

Outsource the fact-finding to a low cost location (use elance, odesk, etc) and if you're a great writer, you'll surely be able to churn out excellent content. Essentially, you're taking care of the high level stuff and leaving the grunt work to someone who is obviously more suited for it.

Has anyone tried this? Can it be economical?

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cma01

14 years ago

Fact is most of the current generation couldn't write their way out of a paper bag.

So true, and then they think you are just "uptight" if you actually value grammar and word usage.

I think a big part of the problem is texting. People get so used to communicating in shorthand, that they forget that it is not appropriate in every occasion.

When my daughter got her phone and started texting her friends, I would look at her texts and make her write out every word she misspelled 10 times and rewrite every poorly structured sentence.

Yes, I'm a mean mom. :p

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JayVance

14 years ago

Back in my day we used to write articles in the snow!
Sorry couldn't resist.

I don't think we should pass judgement on others, especially for those who are educated that come here. Think about this, look at all the other aspects of IM. If they can't write articles then what can they do? Outside of someone who has initial capital to outsource then it wouldn't really matter. But most of the newbies that come here don't have that kind of capital and are looking for the easiest way in.

Hands down, article marketing is still the cheapest IM method for anyone who wants to get started with IM.

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sylviad

14 years ago

Steve,

When we advise newbies to write articles, we are not necessarily telling them to write and sell it to marketers. If they happen to have that skill, great. Go for it.

One huge reason we suggest writing articles is because it costs nothing and is a very effective way to drive traffic to your offers.

Whether we like it or not, writing doesn't have to be that perfect for marketers just looking to drive traffic to their site. Articles can be quite simple, resembling little more than a list of bullet points, an intro and ending paragraphs.

I'm not sure about your - 99% can't put a sentence together - comment. Where did you come up with that number? From what I've seen, many people have sufficient skills to write well enough for marketing their sites.

What worries me somewhat is the new modes of communication that enable poor writing. Growing up, I had little choice but to learn, which I got mainly from books.

I spent many hours in the late 1950s sitting at the library reading, or taking books home to read them. As you know, we didn't have all the distractions back then. In my case, we didn't have T.V. until my mother got sick. My father put his foot down and told us it was just for her. We couldn't watch it.

Today, the push is more to shortcuts - texting is a perfect example. I figure in time humans will possess only minimal word knowledge, no knowlege of spelling and grammar, and only 2 thumbs and 2 fists in place of our current 2 thumbs and 8 fingers.

The thing is, marketers have article production as an option. It's a highly useful one in this business regardless of whether or not they can write a perfect sentence.

It sounds like your rant came from your dissatisfaction in trying to find a quality writer for your needs.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist myself, which is why I'm reluctant to hire a writer. I figure I'll end up spending more time 'making it mine' that it's worth.

Looks like you'll just have to bite the bullet and write your own material.

And I hugely agree with Tina - it's not so much that there aren't any good writers, but that people expect to get high quality for peanuts. Writers with expert skill and credentials are not likely to want to take jobs that pay $10-$15 maximum per article. Many marketers seem to think $1-$2 is sufficient. Not. At least, not if you want something you can be proud to pass on as your own.

Sylvia

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b0n4r

14 years ago

Article writing IS for newbies. Honestly, all Internet Marketers should be able to write at a somewhat decent level. If they can't, they probably won't succeed at anything else.

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JohnMcCabe

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

But they can learn, and that is the point. A lot of junk articles go up for backlink purposes, so why not learn while getting the backlinks.

Mostly because writing junk articles for backlinks only teaches people how to write junk articles for backlinks. They never get beyond this.

And then they get the notion that, because they can write junk articles, they can write well enough to persuade humans to do things like click links, opt into lists and buy things. Mostly, they can't until they take their skills to another plane. Compared to humans, search spiders are relatively simple, not very bright creatures.

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

BTW, I've never seen it, but I wonder how writing an article and headlines in the style you wrote would convert? Both from the standpoint of linkbuilding and syndication.

Marvin

From the standpoint of link building, they probably work fairly well. For every junk article accepted someplace, they get a link.

If they get the right keywords (another skill that's often neglected), they might get some syndication on scraper blogs, again for backlinks.

But I rarely see articles at the skill level most newbies bring to the table syndicated on authority sites where real readers can find them...

Originally Posted by CDarklock

So for all the writers out there: Do not take jobs for money. Take jobs only for education. If you cannot learn anything from a job, turn it down.

Don't lie to get jobs you can't handle. If your client is happy to pay for your education, cool. But don't ask a client to pay you to learn something you've already told him you know how to do.

Kind of like the "offliners" who post in a panic that they've just sold a big account and now they need to learn how to put up a website...

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Marvin Johnston

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Mostly because writing junk articles for backlinks only teaches people how to write junk articles for backlinks. They never get beyond this.

And then they get the notion that, because they can write junk articles, they can write well enough to persuade humans to do things like click links, opt into lists and buy things. Mostly, they can't until they take their skills to another plane. Compared to humans, search spiders are relatively simple, not very bright creatures.

From the standpoint of link building, they probably work fairly well. For every junk article accepted someplace, they get a link.

If they get the right keywords (another skill that's often neglected), they might get some syndication on scraper blogs, again for backlinks.

But I rarely see articles at the skill level most newbies bring to the table syndicated on authority sites where real readers can find them...

I admit that I might well be different than a lot of people, but I really don't see much reason for doing anything unless at least part of the reason is to get better.

And that is the background on my statement that article marketing is a good place to start. Practice in writing and submitting articles both make for great practice.

Marvin

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Don't lie to get jobs you can't handle.

Let me clarify myself a little more.

Never work for anyone who knows less about his business than you do.
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- Sylvia Meier 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  Let me clarify myself a little more.
  
  Never work for anyone who knows less about his business than you do.
  
  I LOVE it. Makes perfect sense to me.
  
  Best wishes,
  Sylvia
  
  Thanks
  
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- Marvin Johnston 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  Let me clarify myself a little more.
  
  Never work for anyone who knows less about his business than you do.
  
  And always try to hire people who know more than you do about the work they are being hired to do.
  
  Marvin
  
  Thanks
  
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Alexa Smith Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by b0n4r

Honestly, all Internet Marketers should be able to write at a somewhat decent level.

What, in English, if it's their third or fourth language?! There's a whole world out there, you know ...

Originally Posted by b0n4r

If they can't, they probably won't succeed at anything else.

Where on earth does that idea come from?! Some of the world's most successful website designers, SEO consultants, video producers and specialists of countless other skills couldn't write an article to save their lives, and have absolutely no intention of or aspiration toward doing so. Why shouldn't people who can't write an article become mega-successful online? Sorry, but this makes little sense to me.
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Willie Crawford

14 years ago

Have another beer.

It looks like you've discovered the real secret to
great writing...

Write Drunk - Edit Sober

Just kidding of course.

I have noticed a change in writing styles but
I always fall back to, "did they effectively get
the message across?"

Willie

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Lauryn

14 years ago

A little off topic - and to nobody in particular :

But if most people in the "younger" (30 and under) generations cannot write a sentence, whose fault is that?

If they were publicly educated, then blame the school system and their parents (who might have worked one or more jobs to keep roofs over their heads and were too tired to check homework), as well as the personal motivation and ethic of that person to do well themselves.

Mediocrity is given a pat on the back. Hard workers create extraordinary results when they focus well... and then stop working harder at working hard and work harder at working smart.

If you're on this forum and can even post, you're a step above the person who doesn't want to speak up or out for fear of looking "different". So even with some of the "junk" some of us say is here, most of us regular posters and visitors are a cut above the rest.

Okay now I'm rambling, but if someone wants to work at internet marketing, learning to write an article isn't a bad idea. If teaches you the power of generating free traffic as well as figuring out how to improve your online communication skills and helps you develop an eye for what works and what doesn't if you can't afford an expensive copywriting course.

But back to the 99% sentence thing... I'm well under 30 and for the most part, there are plenty of reasons why MANY people of all ages can't write sentences. If someone can't write one due to external challenges - poor education from lazy teachers or tired parents, then that's one thing. If they're just unmotivated, then that's just what they reap due to lack of perseverance.

Personally, my grammar sucks but I intend on improving it. (and I hate public speaking)

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I Go Hard = "Slanguage" for putting forth a lot of effort.

Don't be an arse and try to flip something you clearly have no knowledge of against me.

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Sylvia Meier

14 years ago

I totally agree with Alexa.

IM is HUGE. Not everyone needs to know how to write, and a lot, I mean a lot do not. They can make money in a million other ways, that doesn't require them polluting the internet any further.

Junk articles are just that, junk.

I don't care if it's just for a backlink or whatever, I make damn sure each and every article I create is of high quality.

No one, I mean no one should be telling everyone and their dog that article marketing is where it's at, because frankly, they are doing that person an injustice as well as any unfortunate soul who reads their junk article and takes it as gospel.

Think about it this way. You're experiencing some symptoms. You do a google search thinking maybe someone can help, before you go rushing off to the doctors. At the top of the results is this article on EZA. Not being an IM'er you don't realize ANYONE can write that article. So they go through the article and figure they have nothing to worry about when in truth they are very ill and should see a doctor right away. But they don't. Because they believe that "expert" status beside your name means you actually KNOW what you're talking about and aren't just churning out content to get a backlink. Who in that situation is winning? NO ONE. Crap articles shouldn't be allowed. Ever. Anywhere.

That is why I take issue with telling everyone to "try" article marketing. Some people can write. Some can't.

Just my two cents,
Sylvia

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KingKuba

13 years ago

Can't remember the last time I read a good article.

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MikeTucker

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ouroboros

I'm dating myself a bit, but I hope it helps me make my point. I grew up when B&W TV was the norm....slide rules...my first calculator (in college) cost almost $75 and could ADD, SUBTRACT, MULTIPLY, and DIVIDE.

I hate to break it to you, but your Username already "dated" you... Younger generations only know what "Ouroboros" is if they are playing too many fantasy video games. :p

Originally Posted by bigbrian76

Alrighty, I have to jump in on this spirited debate as well. First of all, kudos to Mr. O (sorry, didn't catch your name there...)

Originally Posted by Buildingfutures

I read vampire books when they weren't all about some ageless vampire falling in love with a teenage girl 'Because she's different'. Back before a vampire book was more than some little girls choice between necrophilia and bestiality.

Sorry, that's probably the bourbon talking. Or Not. I'm not a fan of these new age books coming out, if its noticeable.

+1000!

Originally Posted by JackDeRips

I would recommend Sharecash. It's the place I started a few years ago and it has "thought" me some really good lessons that I still use.

Yeah, how did that post work out for you? Make you lots of money, did it? ...Almost like you didn't read the rest of the thread...

Originally Posted by wildturkey

I didn't read the thread so it may have devolved into trolling and arguing, but I had an idea based on the whole theory that the quality of writers out there is poor:

Outsource the fact-finding to a low cost location (use elance, odesk, etc) and if you're a great writer, you'll surely be able to churn out excellent content. Essentially, you're taking care of the high level stuff and leaving the grunt work to someone who is obviously more suited for it.

Has anyone tried this? Can it be economical?

Great way to start a post. I'm sure everyone will take you seriously after reading that.

And yes, the outsourcing of fact-finding is an old idea, but if you're putting your name on the articles, you are still going to want to check their references.

Originally Posted by KingKuba

Can't remember the last time I read a good article.

It probably wasn't in Google... Not to start a conspiracy theory, but why do I keep finding very poorly rehashed PLR and spam articles on the first page of Google? Are they trying to force me to click on the AdWords that display on the page? I mean, it's been a decade... Can they really not find a better way to rank articles that punishes people who game the system with backlinks?

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John Romaine

13 years ago

This thread clearly illustrates why you shouldn't drink and post.

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Article Writing is NOT good advice for newbies!

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