Outsourcing: India or the Philippines?

That is something that I am not sure though, I'm sorry.

Both you guys are correct that it doesn't matter where the guys will be coming from. However, being educated and learning the backgrounds of each country and each culture will truly helps you in your decision making process.

If we will just try to seek the real question here is that, this ain't really a question about which country is better? It is not about the countries, on top of that, it is about you the business owner who will do outsourcing your business. You are trying to feel which of these countries, which race, whom you will be more comfortable working with, and will be more productive.

Fellow warriors are just sharing their personal experiences and it is good, because outsourcing is a very personal/subjective thing, it's case to case basis but having such trends on what others been saying you will have an idea to what it is to outsource in a particular country.

Though outsourcing is a personal thing, when you are getting started you look at the totality of your options and you tend to generalize things but it's a common tendency, however, its totally up to you whether you will believe what others might be saying about this or that because in the long run it will just be you, who will know what is true and not true once you deal with an individual and that will now transcends where is he/she comes from.

People are just sharing their experiences, they don't intentionally degrade a certain race/country they are just saying what they felt and thought about their experiences. Those are their experiences, it may happen or may not happen to us. We will just know that when we get there. They just wanna share that they thought will be of value to others.

Chris

Yes it does matter.

Out of the two options, the Filipino's win hands down.

Why?

No disrespect to Indians but they have far more of a lax attitude when it comes to delivering what you want them to, on time.

A sweeping generalization perhaps. But unfortunately, it's true.

Now, the Philippines...

A/ They have a much better command generally speaking of the English language.

B/ Their work ethic is much better. They enjoy working especially for American companies and businesses here in the West, as this gives them a certain amount of credibility amongst their family and friends.

C/ Their work rates are comparable to India without any of the hassle associated with employing people from India. $2-4 p/hr for a VA will get you someone very highly qualified for this position. Most Filipino's have a degree education.

D/ They are extremely loyal. Treat them well and they'll stay with you for life. Nothing is too much trouble for them.

In India, the exact opposite is unfortunately true. It's just how it is although some here may beg to differ.

On a scale of 1-100 - India scores 20 points. The Philippines 85 points.

No comparison. The choice is obvious from personal experience Russ.

Hahahahahaha, wow! I laughed out loud when I read that. Wit is alive and well on the WF, it seems.

Thanks for the tips.

Russ

I certainly agree with this. Plus, Filipinos are really smart and diligent workers.

Is this a Joke Chris...........Are you telling the monthy wage of Indians 50 years back? Today I got my electric switch repaired and the electrician charged me Rs 350 for a 5 min work.

No offence to you but Now I can imagine why they think so.

So by that you are saying that since 400 Rupees and you so well state is the average it means that everybody falls in that average?

I thought average was somehow calculated as the highest wage plus the minimum wage divided by two.

Having that in mind I would like to ask you not that I am making a case for the Indians or what ever because I personally think they are even working at a very low rate that I don't think I can ever work at. Do you know what the highest wage in India is and has it occur to you just for a second that the person you were treating with actually deserves the maximum?

And not to get into some polemic on who establishes these minimum or maximum rates and how accurate they are because from my vast knowledge of India I sincerely doubt that there is anybody except maybe the really unqualified and unskilled labor that can work for such a low rate 400Rupee.

And that is not what you are looking for or is it?

Where you got these stats? Come to india and you can find what you can do with $8. For $8 you can get a nice dinner in medium sized restaurants that is all.
I am from India, Salary for tech people is very high here. Broadband cost is very high here compared to USA.
For a good web designer we have to pay $1000 . If you pay less then you will get crap designs.
For coders you have to pay Around $1500 to $2000
In real life you can get newbie VA for link building with less skills for around $250 .

Article writer salary is around $300 to $400 here that is why i prefer outsource it.

You simply don't understand how they determine the average wage. When you divide India's entire income by the number of people, including all of the dirt farmers who have no skills other than farming you may get a really low number. But the people living in the cities who have the skills you lack yourself aren't dumb. They know and demand a fair wage and don't appreciate westerners who try to take advantage of them. Remember India is the world's largest Democracy and they have more Honour Roll students than the USA has students.

$8/Month... Hmmm... Can you please show me the source from where you collected this data?

I would like to correct you, here. The average wage $8/Month in India is for poor class laborers and not for the tech people.

In India, technical people are getting around $400-$600 Month at an average.

Do you think, that your VA who is owning a computer and an internet connection is earning $8/Month? You are talking about average income, but is it the average income of a VA? Because, we are talking about hiring a VA and not talking about the average income as a whole.

Definitely, you want a VA and not a laborer. $10/Hour is a bit higher but $8/month is not at all to talk about.

Stuff like this really does get my goat, I'm a UK born and based Indian but I've been to India a good 12-15 times, so a have a good grasp of the place.

I don't know what the average salary in India is but I'm sure as heck it's higher than 400 rupees. but whatever the average salary is is irrelevant as we have to remember that the majority of the population is poor, I spent a month there back in September and the some of the poverty I saw was devastating, but I can guarantee you that the beggars on the street who can't read or write in Hindi, nevermind English are making more than 400 rupees/month. Whatever the average salary in India is would be way below what you'd expect to pay for a VA, because the average salary would most likely apply to labourers (e.g the Mason example Dr Mani mentioned), not to educated folk who can read and write English and have the money to own a computer and have broadband connections (sidenote, all of my cousins in India have MACs and Iphones, if the 400 rupee thing were true, each one of them would have to save up for over 23years to pay for that)

Another thing, India has the second largest population in the world, over a billion people! Anyone who thinks they can try 1 or 2 VAs from India and then try to generalise about the whole country needs to sort themselves out, I mean seriously, am I the only one who can see how ridiculous that is?

I remember reading somewhere a few years ago that 40% of Doctors in the US are Indian, it's funny how you can trust an Indian to save your life but think twice about one writing an article for you.

This isn't me trying to say that Indians are all amazing and that's the only place you should outsource, I'm just trying to clear some ridiculous misconceptions on this thread, I've hired both Indians and Filipinos and will continue to hire folks on their skill sets and not their nationality, I hope I've inspired some of you to do the same.

Ruchi

I disagree . I wonder how you came up with the $8 figure. . Average monthly income in India comes to around 1/6th of that in US. So the average monthly income in US will come around $50 per month according to your assumption. .I doubt its highly unlikely. And asking $10 per hour is not much of a rip off if he/she can provide quality work.

I'm with you, Chris, though I can say this about the Philippines. Just last night, I emailed a few resumes I found on Craigslist Manilla looking for someone to setup Wordpress blogs with themes, plugins, articles, etc.

I got quoted $9/hr by one guy, $60/blog from another.

Are you freaking kidding me? A teacher in the Philippines makes about $250/month. An engineer about $400/month. And these people want $1200+ a month?

I'm not an idiot.

This post is patently absurd and veritably begs for derisive laughter.

There was a huge huge scam they did along with CWG (The scam was better than the games :rolleyes and many of the games organizers were arrested last month. So it's obvious that it's gonna take time before the Aussies get their money in bank.

Coming back to the topic, outsourcing to India is good if you are dealing with a well established firm. But if you're gonna ask people to sit at home and do tasks, that's not going to work out. They work very well under pressure, with strict monitoring. But that would spoil the whole purpose of keeping VA's. Having said this, if you can find people and get into arrangements such as "pay for performance", then things will work fine.

Philippines is always the better place for finding people as VA's. Most of them are really hard working and honest.

The best thing about them is that, they're willing to learn on their own.

All the best.

Tom

Wow - I find your comments both racist and offensive.
If we are talking CWG - yes their was a problem, however it was uncovered and is being dealt with legally. Of course that means some payments are backed up as they are checked for ireegularities but the Government of India guaranteed everyones money and has never not paid any dues when they say they will....

As for the anti India slant on this thread, and ive seen it a few times on the warrior forum. Aussies have had an issue with the 'harrassing' of India students within their own country for some time as seen in Western media, so no wonder they come out with anti India rhetoric...

As a person of Indian descent I have found many post in this friend extremely distasteful and I repeat the remarks of another poster, that you cannot taint a country of one billion with your impression of just a few of them.

Perhaps some of your bad experience are down to your lack of due diligence.

I'm a damn hard worker, and am well respected in my professional work area, shame that I would be judged by many of you by my roots and not my ability.

I've had nothing but bad experiences outsourcing to people from India and nothing but good experiences outsourcing to people from the Phillipines.

Obviously this is only over a small sample size and isn't conducive that one place is better than the other, but people from the Phillipines have always been best, from my experiences, and I'll continue to hire people from there.

That's a common excuse they give you. But let me tell you, if you're hiring freelancers, don't expect any kind of loyalty from them. Most of these guys bid for almost every project out there and they don't really look at the volume they can handle. This guy would have got another project and must be buying time. But then again, I could be wrong as well.

One thing I like about guys from Philippines is their loyalty. I've got people who work with me for almost 2 years now. They know what's best to do, even if I don't train them for each and every stuff.

Thank you.

Great business owners deserves great workers too.

Thumbs up to good business owners treating their workers very well.


Everyone is entitled of the benefit of that doubt but not for too long.

It may be that his father became ill and it's his responsibility as a son to take care of his father. However, he got himself into a contract with you that will establish an obligation on his end to fulfill what has been contracted for.

You have the right to demand!!!

Demand for the full completion of contract or just demand a refund.

About the hassle, both ways you will experience this, you just need to choose which one is less hassle.

The hassle of finding someone else that may lead to the completion of the project?

or

The hassle of waiting, wandering, bothering, and worrying if the project will be completed?

You choose.

Chris

They are full on odesk you can get as many as you wish.

Helo mesen, please pm me if you need my help. I can surely be of assistance.

I'm at the stage in my businesses growth where I just hire people and not outsource much. For small tasks, or what I call "bucket work" - things I don't want to do or assign, I will outsource. If I can't afford to do it within China (which is what I usually do since I work within the Chinese market) due to people who speak good English within China usually cost about the wage of someone in America, I tend to outsource to the Philippines. The Philippines seem to be better connected to both China's and Western culture, have a better understanding of our language which is important, and mannerisms.

Another thing is the noticeable difference between skilled labor. In India, the quality of work for $100 is the same you would get for $300 and that is not a good thing, while in the Philippines, the difference is much more apparent which gives me a sense of reliability, or knowing what I am paying for.

It is British english in India not US english.

It is centre and not center.. colour and not color.

It might be the trouble for you?

Jay, I was thinking something very similar.

Russ' question would have got so much real value in response
if it had been worded:

"Who are the VAs in India and the Philippines whom you have
worked with and consider good value for money?"

Then, people who have outsourced to either place could have
suggested SPECIFIC people or companies, and this might have
grown into a very valuable thread to bookmark for future use.

Loaded with personal and anecdotal opinions, as it has, there
is precious little of value to any serious outsourcer or a
small business owner who faces the choice between a few dozen
million and a few hundred million potential workers to pick
from!

In one of Cyril Northcote Parkinson's books, I first read the
importance of a correctly worded advertisement. It won't
attract plenty of prospects - but those (or even the single
one) it does will be PERFECT for your needs.

I'll bow out of this discussion with this comment

All success
Dr.Mani

Isnt this a racist thread?

Great Advice.

Personally, I have had great success with Philippine Workers. Never got around to trying Indian Workers. Perhaps I'll work with one someday and who knows.. Maybe I'll use him again.

GREAT point. One that anyone who outsources regularly will understand
intuitively, or learn the hard way very fast!

I outsource my online work to South Africa and U.S.A., btw. And don't find
great help first shot out of the box. It takes trial and error. Every 'failure'
takes you closer to success.

Both India and Philippines have a HUGE pool of available talent, which makes
it easier to LOCATE a suitable worker to test out.

All success
Dr.Mani

Indian freelancers are easy to find but I haven't yet found many Filipinos I can choose from. Is anyone willing to share some tips of how to find some work from home Filipinos?

I have to say that I am surprised to see that this thread is still so active. And although I get that the OP is specifically comparing India and the Philippines, it crosses my mind that we are setting a bad example for the less experienced marketers that follow these threads and forums and take our words as gospel. I won't rehash my previous post as I have made my opinion clear but I felt I wanted to say that all should remember that the best we can do here is share our own experiences and no one has the perfect answer to any question. If you are very new to Internet Marketing keep this in mind.

Hmmm... All hasty generalizations are false, including this one...
So now for my own set of opinions:

1. Hired someone who did crap work? Improve your formulated manpower
marketing, testing and hiring processes. Pay this person for his or her
time. You wasted this person's time. Not the other way around. You gave
tasks the person does not have the right knowledge and skill sets to do...

2. Hired someone who suddenly disappeared in the middle of a project? Improve your manpower marketing, testing, hiring, training, managerial,
promotion, reward/incentive, and work-life environment balance systems.

The person could've been motivated and challenged enough to stick with
you, if you provided excellent reward systems and assigned challenging
tasks...

3. Don't usually get the right people to test nor a substantial volume of
interested applicants? Improve your manpower marketing and wage charting systems. Consider a sign up bonus, payable
in staggered payments. Consider incentives in place of regular employee
benefits...

4. Your business development, growth and expansion plans,
product/service marketing, sales projections and results should match your
manpower marketing, testing, hiring and training systems among other
processes mentioned above...

People interested in working with you need to think and feel your
corporation or company or business or home business is stable enough to
provide them long term employment...

You have plans... They also have their own plans... So if you can't inspire
them on the get-go:

Formulate character developmental sessions aiming to instill a unified
annual corporate goal-personal goal mindset into everyone working with
you...

This will align their personal objectives with the goals of your business...
And your business goals with their own plans...

Those are my relevant opinions, formulated using my experience, research,
observations, test result analysis and inferences. The foundation of these opinions were initially formed and will constantly change with:

1. Worked as a $200/month online content marketing researcher/writer at
a local IM/MMO outsourcing firm 6 years ago, for more than 10 months.
Why? No available opportunities for someone who just went totally blind. Besides: Considered English research and writing as a straightforward task.

2. Asked my employer for 8 additional daily 2000++-word quotas after my
first 3 weeks, 2 of which I outsourced to my friends and provided editing
work. Why? No offers nor different challenging tasks from my employer.
Had plans for career growth and expansion. Needed the money...

3. Contacted a prominent North American corporation in the system
security industry, while simultaneously working with the local outsourcing
firm. Why? Implemented my career growth and expansion plans.

4. Landed another post as an online content marketing
researcher/writer with them. Worked with them for months, doing
quadruple daily quotas. Gave up my day job to explore more avenues for faster career growth and expansion...

5. Signed up an outsourcing, content development, content marketing and
SEO/SEM consultancy agreement with them, after a few months of
internal work for them...

6. Officially registered a company. People I worked with grew from 4 work
at home moms and dads -- me, my wife and 2 friends -- to 90 employees,
30 subcontractors, 2 head offices and 9 provincial offices across the
Philippines, 3 months after company registration...

Just sharing so you could decide if my opinions could most likely be helpful
in growing and expanding your businesses...

If I did that exclusively, I would hardly profit enough to sustain my business through rocky moments and allow for growth. Not from overhead, but because my American employees don't bring me in as much as my Chinese workers do. (this is also why I pay my Chinese employees an American wage)

Last 10 or so times I hired American freelancers to perform simple and rather unskilled tasks for weeks or months, I was met with a bunch of excuses as to why they couldn't perform their work, and the best part... "because $16/hour isn't much in CA for data entry, so either pay me more or I'm not going to do it" - outsourced someone else for $6/hr and met my expectations.

However, this is for stuff like data entry and "product pulling" which is eCommerce related. This is stuff anyone can do if they are taught to. Skilled labor such as programming that requires some creative thought meshed with programming logic- because lets be honest, when you need to create some piece of software and you have no real programming experience you won't know everything you want and likely don't have the time to walk a developer by the hand through something... so for skilled labor, I go with the U.S.