Have You Let Logic Go Out The Window?

15 years ago

Hi steve

I'm not sure of the point that you are trying to make.

Are you suggesting that just because there are established sites out there in a particular niche that we shouldn't try and and enter that niche?

Gary

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Richard Van

15 years ago

Hello Steven,

I'm not in a huge amount of niches but one thing I learned a few years ago, when I was doing the then "30 day challenge", was exactly what your saying with the David and Goliath analogy.

They had a picture I think of a 5 stone nerd trying to take on a 20 stone cage fighter. They also drilled into people that the amount of competition, doesn't actually show you how good the competition is. I've seen Alexa agree on this, that you could have 20,000,000 million competing pages but if they're all crap sites with no idea what there doing, what's the relevance? It's what the top 5 sites are doing and how well they're doing it. I like niches I know I can dominate, preferably as easily as possible, why make life hard when it doesn't have to be.

I don't look at how much competition I have, just who they are and what they're doing.

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paulie888

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Hello Steven,

I'm not in a huge amount of niches but one thing I learned a few years ago, when I was doing the then "30 day challenge", was exactly what your saying with the David and Goliath analogy.

They had a picture I think of a 5 stone nerd trying to take on a 20 stone cage fighter. They also drilled into people that the amount of competition, doesn't actually show you how good the competition is. I've seen Alexa agree on this, that you could have 20,000,000 million competing pages but if they're all crap sites with no idea what there doing, what's the relevance? It's what the top 5 sites are doing and how well they're doing it. I like niches I know I can dominate, preferably as easily as possible, why make life hard when it doesn't have to be.

I don't look at how much competition I have, just who they are and what they're doing.

Richard, I guess this is what happens when newbies read some purportedly authoritative report on how to enter just about any niche, and rank on the top of Google in that niche just as long as they "follow steps A-Z".

While keyword/page competition figures are nice to have and can help in determining whether to enter a niche or not, what's far more important is using your common sense when visiting the first page of Google, and simply clicking on your competitors' links to determine what type/level of competition you're facing.

Common sense dictates that you should stay away from a keyword/niche if the 1st page of Google is littered with authority sites, but somehow people seem to place far too much faith in having automated/keyword tools show them the way.

Paul

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markowe

15 years ago

Originally Posted by paulie888

Richard, I guess this is what happens when newbies read some purportedly authoritative report on how to enter just about any niche, and rank on the top of Google in that niche just as long as they "follow steps A-Z".

I say once again, you are overestimating many newbies! Many that I encounter do not even KNOW that you are supposed to rank at the top of Google or even target specific keywords! They have picked up a 'build it and they will come' understanding of affiliate/Internet marketing - probably because most of them actually HAVEN'T bought even a basic primer on IM/SEO etc. I think the problem is most of them are spending too much time on Digitalpoint forums, that was my problem anyway

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paulie888

15 years ago

Originally Posted by markowe

I say once again, you are overestimating many newbies! Many that I encounter do not even KNOW that you are supposed to rank at the top of Google or even target specific keywords! They have picked up a 'build it and they will come' understanding of affiliate/Internet marketing - probably because most of them actually HAVEN'T bought even a basic primer on IM/SEO etc. I think the problem is most of them are spending too much time on Digitalpoint forums, that was my problem anyway

You're absolutely right! The "build it and they will come" mentality is pretty scary, but now that you've mentioned it, I think there's still a sizable base of newbies who still think that.

That's a very destructive mindset though, and this explains why so many newbies procrastinate when building their sites and obsess over making them as 'perfect' as possible. Another classic newbie and layman mindset that seems to be very hard to dispel is the 'flashy/sophisticated' website myth - where they think that only websites with Flash and all manner of bells and whistles will do well in the market, and can be easily monetized. I encounter this issue all the time even with offline business owners, and I end up having to educate them about the virtues of clean/simple website design that has a clear call to action!

Paul

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Richard Van

15 years ago

Very true Paul.

The amount of time I've seen keyword research being based on how many searches a term gets (which is obviously important) against how many competing pages there are for the term is enormous.

Very little is mentioned about who those competing pages are and how good they are, at what they do.

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paulie888

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Very true Paul.

The amount of time I've seen keyword research being based on how many searches a term gets (which is obviously important) against how many competing pages there are for the term is enormous.

Very little is mentioned about who those competing pages are and how good they are, at what they do.

The latter figure (competing pages) is typically glossed over and overlooked, in my experience.

It's funny that even when I see tutorials mention this, very little focus is given to researching your competition beyond just looking at numerical statistics.

Paul

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Richard Van

15 years ago

Markowe and Paulie,

The "Build it and they'll come" bit is very off putting. Paul will recount a young lad I gave money to recently (remember Paul , the little s....).

He made a site and then said "when will people start buying?". I politely explained it was a bit more in depth than that but instead of listening to me, he went on to his next project. He wrote a short book, he then built the site. He decided he didn't need to do any research, all in that order

. Nothing I said would convince him because he "knew" his way would work.

Sadly the book and site he made were on hacking into sites and cookie stuffing. He was so clever, he did this on a free Wordpress blog. As I recollect they took his site down within 24 hours for violating their TOS.

He did all of this without the slightest knowledge anyone, anywhere was even interested, despite my repeated suggestion that you need to do your research first and try to be ethical about what you sell.

I guess research is boring and wasn't to his taste. I've not heard from him since. Brilliant isn't it. I was prepared to teach him how to do it but because I told him he won't make dollars immediately, he's decided he'll do it his way.

So Steven, how's that for letting logic go out the window? I'd debate if there was even any logic to go out of the window in the first place.

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paulie888

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Markowe and Paulie,

The "Build it and they'll come" bit is very off putting. Paul will recount a young lad I gave money to recently (remember Paul , the little s....).

He made a site and then said "when will people start buying?". I politely explained it was a bit more in depth than that but instead of listening to me, he went on to his next project. He wrote a short book, he then built the site. He decided he didn't need to do any research, all in that order

. Nothing I said would convince him because he "knew" his way would work.

Sadly the book and site he made were on hacking into sites and cookie stuffing. He was so clever, he did this on a free Wordpress blog. As I recollect they took his site down within 24 hours for violating their TOS.

He did all of this without the slightest knowledge anyone, anywhere was even interested, despite my repeated suggestion that you need to do your research first and try to be ethical about what you sell.

I guess research is boring and wasn't to his taste. I've not heard from him since. Brilliant isn't it. I was prepared to teach him how to do it but because I told him he won't make dollars immediately, he's decided he'll do it his way.

So Steven, how's that for letting logic go out the window? I'd debate if there was even any logic to go out of the window in the first place.

So true, Richard, Sometimes you wonder whether any logic was there in the first place - logic can be hard to conjure when one is facing desperation.

I suppose when people prioritize making money over everything else, logic deserts them and they end up doing silly and irrelevant things that do not make any sense at all - and it'd be virtually impossible to reason with them as all they want is instant cash, which is almost never feasible, even on the internet.

I remember that little s!$% all too well, and I suppose you've never heard from him since that fateful day. He needs to grow up and mature, and perhaps when he develops a better grasp of things he can come back here and actually learn a thing or two about internet marketing, lol!

Paul

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LetsGoViral

15 years ago

Well, sometimes even the little fish get some share of the food.

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Dan C. Rinnert

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

But are you tossing logic out the window when deciding on a niche to tackle?

Are you assuming they had logic in the first place?

C'mon, IM is an ATM. You don't need to do any work. Just buy an eBook or DVD from the TV ad and sleep while the money rolls in. Spend that $37 and you're set for life.

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tpw

15 years ago

LOL

I think the point he is making is that you should not be allowed to outrank an authority website in Google or any other search engine, with a tiny blog with almost no information on it.

Sure, there is a place in the marketplace for your non-authority blog or PDF report, but why would anyone ever expect that Google should drop the authority site in favor of the insignificant sites in that niche?

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

LOL

I think the point he is making is that you should not be allowed to outrank an authority website in Google or any other search engine, with a tiny blog with almost no information on it.

Sure, there is a place in the marketplace for your non-authority blog or PDF report, but why would anyone ever expect that Google should drop the authority site in favor of the insignificant sites in that niche?

Thanks...somebody gets it.

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oneplusone

15 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

LOL

I think the point he is making is that you should not be allowed to outrank an authority website in Google or any other search engine, with a tiny blog with almost no information on it.

Sure, there is a place in the marketplace for your non-authority blog or PDF report, but why would anyone ever expect that Google should drop the authority site in favor of the insignificant sites in that niche?

A great explanation!

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Fraggler

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

If you take a look at the top site (no I'm not posting a URL) you will notice
right away that, at the left hand side on the menu bar, there are no less
than 30 different categories of guns and accessories and if you were to click
on each one, you'd find tons of items.

In other words...a true authority site for the purchase of guns.

Is it an Authority or is it just a Content Farm?

OR is it just one of many ecommerce stores that provide no more information than a make, model, and price?

Does the user really want that site or would they prefer a site that provides solid advice on the best place to buy what they want online? What do other gun experts think? What are these guys recommending?

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Fraggler

Is it an Authority or is it just a Content Farm?

OR is it just one of many ecommerce stores that provide no more information than a make, model, and price?

Does the user really want that site or would they prefer a site that provides solid advice on the best place to buy what they want online? What do other gun experts think? What are these guys recommending?

It doesn't matter what this site is per say. If you want to beat this site
at the game it is playing, whether it's ecommerce, information, or whatever,
then you have to be better than it.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

Sure, there are going to be people who are looking for info on guns
because they're not sure what gun they want.

But when I know I want a CD from a certain rock group because
I've been following them for years, I don't need to read a review about
them on some blog or content site. I just go straight to Amazon, type
in their name, do my one click and be done with it.

I'm not saying you can't get into the guns niche, but if you're going to
setup a site to simply sell guns, as this # 1 site does (and no, there is
no info on the site at all) you still have to have a better selection and
better prices. Because this site is obviously doing something right as
they're at the top of the SERPs.

So don't read more into my post than what there is. If you want to
compete with a site at the game they are playing, you have to play it
better.

That's all I'm saying.

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inter123 15 years ago

I kind of wondered about this too. If the top 10 sites are all e-commerce sites, it is a good idea to create an content type of site? I have a few content based sites (content is good here and not like ehow type of material) and is on the first page in with the ecommerce websites.

The trouble is the bounce rate is high, even though the idea of the site is for people to leave to the afiliate, adsense, etc as soon as possible.

I am not sure if this is what people are really looking for and in the long term if there might be difficulties.

As for the gun site, yeah sure why can't someone beat it? Put up 100 pages of content with one page for 'buy guns online'. With backlinks, high PR, etc there is no reason why at the moment, the way things work, it can't beat those top 10 sites.
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Fraggler

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I'm not saying you can't get into the guns niche, but if you're going to
setup a site to simply sell guns, as this # 1 site does (and no, there is
no info on the site at all) you still have to have a better selection and
better prices. Because this site is obviously doing something right as
they're at the top of the SERPs.

If you are talking purely about SERPs then the wide range or stock will have little to do with the ranking for a keyword. I assume you don't want to turn this thread into SEO talk but I'll just say that the #1 site for 'buy guns online' has a stupid amount of links and this is why that page is up at the top. That doesn't mean it can't be beaten and the niche (or one with a similar strong site) can't be beaten. You just can't beat it for that term.

If you want to compete with a site at the game they are playing, you have to play it better.

Better, or different?

I might be reading more into your post than what you intended but I am still reading it as I see it. If I see a site selling heaps of a product with little information - just an ecommerice store, why not do what they are doing better by simply making the sale process more comfortable for the buyer? This might mean providing more information so they can make a wise decision or it might be a more enjoyable shopping experience where the buyer doesn't feel at risk.

It doesn't mean you need to have a wider range, just a better range; whether that is price or quality.

If you create a good experience for the user then they will talk about your business in their own circles and word (and links) will spread from there.

If you are talking about purely the SERPs - you just need better SEO.

If *I* wanted to beat them at their own game then I would be targeting specific products and types of products rather than the broad term 'buy guys online'. I would target those categories you mentioned that made it appear like an authority. I would target the 100's or 1000's of products that make those categories. I would take one look at that site and know that they have just given me all the research I need to let them take their broad keyword and I'll take on the more specific ones.

Despite the homepage, the site at #1 can be easily beaten for more specific terms. The 'more info' I keep referring to will help you outrank an ecommerce store too. It isn't neccessary though. You could mimic that site and still beat it for more specific terms.

I wouldn't do that though, I'd do it better. The landing page for each term would have to give the user a reason to buy, and continually return to buy more from you.

You mentioned buying a music CD from Amazon. Do you Google that first or do you go straight to the site? I go straight to the site. Amazon can be easily beaten in the SERPS if you use some lateral/creative thinking to take in the side-entrance. They keep people coming back by providing a great experience.

If you can get people coming back to your site you just need to find enough side-entrances to get them hooked.

I just don't think anyone should throw away a niche because they come across a tough competitor on Google. They just need to get creative about their point of attack.

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matt5409

15 years ago

i think the message in this thread is that you should know which battles to pick, or in the case of IM, which niches to pick. you can drill down the guns niche into much more specific territory, and this is what creating a niche microsite is about. a lot of information on a generally niche topic is an authority in itself, is it not? especially if that microsite provides more information on, say that model of gun, than the larger site...

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mikemcmillan

15 years ago

I understand exactly what you mean, Steven. And I agree totally... if you are trying to beat them at their own game. Sometimes, though, you don't have to beat them at exactly the game they are playing, i.e. the game of getting Google rankings above page after page of high-authority sites.

When I did a YouTube search for "buying guns online" the first listed video that came up had over 40,000 views. The same search on EZA returned an article with over 3,000 views. And on a gun forum I just visited one thread on the first page had over 140,000 views. And just like here on the WF, a lot of those forums allow sig files with links going to members pages. And someone looking for a very specific gun might do an image search on G rather than a web search and properly tagged images on a site can show well irrespective of how the site as a whole shows.

Here on the WF there are savvy marketers making 50k or more a year putting up WSOs for products related to SEO, link building, list building, etc. who would never be able to rank in the SERPs with their actual sales pages (if they actually have one for their WSO).

I'm just saying that getting top Google rankings is only one way to get traffic to a page and make sales with it. A lot of people make a lot of money without ever tackling the big guys showing in Google for their search terms. But like I said, that's not playing their game, it's modifying their game a bit.

But yes, if one is trying to compete for real estate on the front page of Google with very high authority sites it might be a complete waste of time--for sure. --Mike

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by mikemcmillan

I understand exactly what you mean, Steven. And I agree totally... if you are trying to beat them at their own game. Sometimes, though, you don't have to beat them at exactly the game they are playing, i.e. the game of getting Google rankings above page after page of high-authority sites.

When I did a YouTube search for "buying guns online" the first listed video that came up had over 40,000 views. The same search on EZA returned an article with over 3,000 views. And on a gun forum I just visited one thread on the first page had over 140,000 views. And just like here on the WF, a lot of those forums allow sig files with links going to members pages. And someone looking for a very specific gun might do an image search on G rather than a web search and properly tagged images on a site can show well irrespective of how the site as a whole shows.

Here on the WF there are savvy marketers making 50k or more a year putting up WSOs for products related to SEO, link building, list building, etc. who would never be able to rank in the SERPs with their actual sales pages (if they actually have one for their WSO).

I'm just saying that getting top Google rankings is only one way to get traffic to a page and make sales with it. A lot of people make a lot of money without ever tackling the big guys showing in Google for their search terms. But like I said, that's not playing their game, it's modifying their game a bit.

But yes, if one is trying to compete for real estate on the front page of Google with very high authority sites it might be a complete waste of time--for sure. --Mike

Thanks Mike...you get it. Yes, there are other avenues, just as you
pointed out.

You won't find me ANYWHERE in the SERPs near page one, but it doesn't
matter because I know what I have to do to get my little corner of
the world. And no, it's not on the mega scale of these guys bringing in
1,000 opt ins a day, but it's good enough to bring in a full time income.

I hope everybody reads your reply because you hit the nail right on the
head.

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Mike Hlatky

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Trust me...they don't make sling shots the way they used to.

Ya, but they make guns now. And apparently you can buy them online too

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Capitalist_Pig

15 years ago

Interesting choice of niche - one that I'm about to take on, though not that exact keyword.

To be short - I think I can take it because I have deep roots in the community, and can provide a better product. I expect it will take me 1-2 years before I start to rank with the likes of gunbroker, auctionarms, gunsamerica, and gunsinternational.

To go further, I'm starting not by launching an auction site or ecommerce store, but with a webmagazine/blog. I don't mind linking it from here, either - Shooters' Journal.

I think the trick is, not to try to bite off the whole thing at once. I don't expect to get traffic from Google for "buy guns online", or even "online gun auctions". I expect to get traffic for terms like "Taurus 709 Slim Review" and ".38 snub-nose revolvers". Once that's built up to where I'm getting consistent traffic - and making some income from Amazon affiliate offers - *then* I'll launch another service. I'm creating a network of authority sites, slowly but surely.

Right now, I have Shooters' Journal, which is consistently getting thousands of hits per month from Google; Guns Wallpapers, which is starting to see some traffic from it's initial target keywords; and Shooters' Journal Forums, which I am hoping will build into a community as the rest of the network grows.

Again though - I've been a part of the gun community online for years, and I'm known on several very large gun forums by name and by handle. I've co-opted Shooters' Journal with an experienced gun writer who has written for major, well-known magazines, and a second partner who knows gunsmithing, was access to a huge number of firearms for photography and reviews, and can assist with the managerial and organization side.

Tackling a large, competitive niche like this would be silly for one guy with an autoblog - but I really believe you can do great things if you build the appropriate team and do things right.

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webpro4hire

15 years ago

Mikemcmillan,

Your post is very insightful. Fellow warriors should take note and tattoo your words on their bu** !

Smart marketers will not try to go head-on with established players, instead opt to find new and better ways to compete. It is the duty of #2, and those below, to "change" the game. Opportunity is always present, we just need to recognize it when it presents itself.

You sir, are part of the reason WF is so damn valuable. I can't say thanks enough...

WebPro

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mikemcmillan

15 years ago

Steven Said,
<<You won't find me ANYWHERE in the SERPs near page one, but it doesn't
matter because I know what I have to do to get my little corner of
the world.>>

I am in exactly that same boat myself Steven. (You can be captain and I'll rig the sails--ok?) Like they say in real estate, It takes money to make money--but that money doesn't have to be your own money! IM is just like that. It's about leverage.

You can quite easily leverage the resources of others much bigger than you to your benefit. You don't really need a big list if you can find ways to leverage the lists of others to your benefit. Same with traffic. Same with name recognition. Same with...

For newbies: Rather than spending thousands of dollars on ebooks (unless they are mine

, find some people who know what the hell they are doing. S. Wag would be a one such choice. Look at their videos, their articles, their sales pages, their sales funnels, their opt-in forms and see how they go about doing the things that make them successful.

Spend a month doing that and you'll learn a lot more than you would from buying 50 of the top CB products in the IM niche. I'm not ragging on here, I'm serious! Try to learn from what knowledgeable people actually do, rather than what the thousands of self aggrandizing blowhards out there tell you to do.
--Mike

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markowe

15 years ago

There is an even simpler point for newbies here - many just do not realise the importance of keyword/market research, I know I didn't. I used to just throw up a site in a niche I thought might be a goer because there were lots of (high-ticket) products in the niche, with no concept of what I was up against. Think I am exaggerating? I see it ALL the time with users of a WP plugin I wrote and it almost invariably ends in failure. So at least if they buy a half-decent aff marketing course they might get THAT bit right.

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Gren Bingham

15 years ago

Hi Steven et al,

It took me a while to understand, but I now see my keywords as what defines my niche.

I think that Steven is elaborating another SEO rule ... choose fights you can win. This means to me choosing effective keywords ... ones with buying traffic where I can move up the rankings. You don't have to be number 1, but page 1 sure helps.

Gren

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Nicola Lane

15 years ago

Coincidentally - at a slight tangent, but related to the point about critical thinking and common sense I read an interesting article today about the lack of critical thinking and research skills with the current “net” generation.

The biggest irony was that the reporter who wrote the article, and whoever placed the copyright notice on several of the illustrations – demonstrated their lack of research skills!

Apparently the students believed a site about the ”Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus”. A brilliant site – if you want a good smile please visit, it contains some brilliant gems – including a page claiming the Belgium doesn’t exist!

Save The Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus

The newspaper article is here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-Internet.html

It got me to thinking and wondering, I would love to get your thoughts about:

How gullible are the general public?
How do you develop critical thinking skills.
What implications does this have for us (business and ethics!)
Can we believe sources that we should be able to consider reliable (like national newspapers!)

(I’ve had quite a few more thought but that is probably enough to get started!)

Update

The Daily mail have corrected their article! - perhaps I shouldn't have called them asking for a job as a fact checker!

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FBM

Banned 15 years ago

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Richard Van 15 years ago

Originally Posted by FBM

I don't understand the point, but this post has made me think about picking niches alot more smartly..

Hi FBM,

I believe we spoke about this. Are you sure you're allowed to have a signature that links to your sales page which you've inserted into the test forum? I was under the impression, in order to sell things on this forum, you had to link to a WSO or your own domain.

I can't see how this is allowed or everyone would be doing it.

Apologies in advance if I'm wrong, if I'm wrong.
- Thanks
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Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...
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