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I banned a WSO Plus affiliate sending traffic - did I do the right thing?

by James B. Allen
96 replies
I need some feedback from the group here.

I've got a WSO going - using Mike Lantz's WSO Pro.

I've been pretty careful about the affiliates I approve - which has worked out well. Almost everyone who's sent even a handful of traffic has converted.

This morning - checking my stats, I noticed one affiliate had sent over 180 clicks with no conversions. Compared to all the other numbers, this was a big surprise.

There was no more traffic coming in at the time so I turned him off so I could check with him about his source / copy etc...

Before I could write back to him, I got a PM from him.

It was rude in tone - telling me to turn him back on ASAP.

I wrote back and told him to please tell me a bit more about his list and show me the copy he used to promote, so I could make sure the traffic was legit before I turned his approval back on.

Seemed like the safe and professional thing to do.

He replied calling me a theif, threatening to tell the world I was a theif, and telling me how he is going to "out me" - etc... etc... He said 200 wasn't a big sample size and insisted I turn him back on.

I said I'd be happy to - if he'd just give me the details I requested.

I received several replies from him like this - but no details of his list or the copy he used to promote.

I am very uncomfortable now after getting several threatening and rude PMs from him.

I keep hearing how carefeul we have to be with affiliates on WSO Pro - so I feel I did the right thing to stop his promotion and double check first.

I've been here a long time - I don't want to upset anybody, but I want to be safe with my promos as well.

Your thoughts?

- James
#affiliate #banned #sending #thing #traffic #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
    I think if it is your WSO - it is ULTIMATELY your prerogative to want to turn him on or off.. Not his.

    BUT.. I think you should have asked all the question and validate BEFORE you approved him the first time.

    You made the call to get him in, you gave him your endorsement to promote, he promoted and you banned him? No wonder he feels that way-especially more if this guy is a new guy who is doing this. Forget he being new- I will be pissed too and put a ban on promoting your product ever. The right thing that you should have done is asked him first, before banning him- but of course, things are already dealt so lets go to the next point.

    In your case right now, I will talk to him out, and check out his stats i.e email/ list etc. You only have DOUBTS and until you are proven right- he is not guilty. And if he is not wrong (FYI: Its not wrong to have low conversion) you owe him a big apology.
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    • Profile picture of the author James B. Allen
      Thank you for your feedback.

      You're absolutely right - this is the lesson for me - I should have checked more before hand.

      You're absolutely right - this is the lesson for me - I should have checked more before hand.

      I would have turned him back on right away if he'd just answered my two questions - please give me more details about your list - and let me know the copy you used.

      Instead, here's how the conversation went (in reverse order): (names removed of course.)

      Meanwhile, I've turned him back on - but I'm really uncomfortable doing so.

      - James

      -----------------


      *******,

      Please feel free to point it out in public. I think the discussion would be good and useful:

      I banned a WSO Plus affiliate sending traffic - did I do the right thing?


      Quote:
      Originally Posted by *******,

      TRAFFIC SOURCE = EMAIL

      COPY = ABOUT CONVERSIONS.

      Don't **** with me. The conversation proves that you're an idiot stealing traffic claiming 200 clicks is a conversion sample size. You're supposed selling something on CONVERSIONS so you should realize 200 clicks is NO SAMPLE SIZE or do you want me to point that out in public for you and teach you a lesson? Jack ass.

      Email submitted. **** YOU.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by James B. Allen
      Please do *******,

      You still haven't answered my simple request.

      Tell me about your source of traffic - your list - and let me see the copy your sent them. That's all I'm asking for and I'll turn you back on.

      I'm sure anyone would understand - especially once they see this conversation between us.

      That's all I asked for - and that you got this upset and turned to name calling and threats instead of responding calmly is very uncomfortable.

      Sincerely,

      James B. Allen

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by *******,
      I don't appreciate you STEALING TRAFFIC AFTER I SENT AN EMAIL BLAST. 200 clicks is NO SAMPLE SIZE for ANY PLATFORM. You're a THIEF and you WILL BE OUTED. In fact, I'm going to submit a mail to Allen Says about this now. Complete bull****.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by James B. Allen
      Dear *******,

      Really no need to get this wound up. You haven't made any conversions yet - the clicks had come to a halt before I turned you off. We touched base - and I just wanted to check in with you to make sure this was all legit.

      I want to know about your traffic source and see the copy your promoted with.

      I don't think I could be more professional than that.

      I really don't appreciate all the name calling, threats, etc...

      - James

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by *******,
      You're an idiot. 200 clicks is NO SAMPLE SIZE. You claim to be an expert? And you're talking about 200 clicks? Ok, time to out you - THIEF. Mailing list is the traffic source - READ MY FIRST MESSAGE. STEALING TRAFFIC IS NOT GOOD BUSINESS. PREPARE TO PAY.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by James B. Allen

      *******,
      Seriously? I saw that you sent nearly 200 clicks, no more traffic had come in for a bit, and I turned you off when there were no conversions. You then touched base with me before I could touch base with you.

      All I'm asking is for you to show me what your traffic source is and what you used for copy and I'll turn you right back on. Absolutely nothing to get upset about - it's smart to play it safe. 200 is a large enough sample for me to make this decision to check like this.

      That's my offer - I think it's fair. If you want to make it a public discussion, absolutely fine. I think it will be valuable to both sides.

      Sincerely,
      James B. Allen

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by *******,
      What planet are you on? 200 clicks to test is NOTHING its not even a large enough sample to decide ANYTHING. You're supposed to be a professional, right? You better turn this on immediately or I will give you a public lesson in conversions - 200 clicks is NOTHING. Don't CHEAT affiliates and STEAL my traffic. You're lucky I mailed out to begin with. I have half the mind to out you to all 11 Skype channels I'm on full of Internet Marketers RIGHT NOW.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by James B. Allen
      Dear *******,

      You need to send me the copy you mailed and specifics of your traffic source ASAP before I turn your approval back on.

      You've sent almost 200 clicks with no conversions. All of my affiliates except you are converting just fine - so I need to know you aren't setting auto-clicks or something. No reasons to be upset if your traffic isn't converting anyways - and I need to be careful with my sources when I see something like this happen - I'm sure you understand.

      Look forward to your reply.

      - James

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by *******,
      What are you doing approving people to mail for your WSO and then after I mail deny the approval? That's BS man. Go ahead and give me a reply here or I'll post this in your WSO thread. I have mailed already ... let the traffic come through.




      Originally Posted by Suthan M View Post

      I think if it is your WSO - it is ULTIMATELY your prerogative to want to turn him on or off.. Not his.

      BUT.. I think you should have asked all the question and validate BEFORE you approved him the first time.

      You made the call to get him in, you gave him your endorsement to promote, he promoted and you banned him? No wonder he feels that way-especially more if this guy is a new guy who is doing this. Forget he being new- I will be pissed too and put a ban on promoting your product ever. The right thing that you should have done is asked him first, before banning him- but of course, things are already dealt so lets go to the next point.

      In your case right now, I will talk to him out, and check out his stats i.e email/ list etc. You only have DOUBTS and until you are proven right- he is not guilty. And if he is not wrong (FYI: Its not wrong to have low conversion) you owe him a big apology.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by James B. Allen View Post

        I've just received another PM from this guy, and honestly at this point a feel very uncomfortable. Maybe this is the way the kids all "discuss" things with each other these days -
        No, it isn't: objectionable, obnoxious behavior is objectionable, obnoxious behavior, whatever age people are.

        Originally Posted by James B. Allen View Post

        Meanwhile, I've turned him back on - but I'm really uncomfortable doing so.
        Too right (about being uncomfortable). There are no circumstances under which I'd want him promoting anything of mine.

        Turning him back on was the first and only thing you did wrong, in my opinion.

        (Ok, probably Big Mike has a point that you might ask people about their copy and so on in the first place ... I'm not in that position, but I'm certainly not going to argue with Big Mike about it, because you'd obviously have to get up very early indeed in the morning to catch him out! ).

        This "affiliate" is just a hooligan, James. Kick him out and stop thinking about him: there's absolutely no reason for doing business with people who behave like that. If he can talk to a business associate like that, heaven only knows what he can say to potential customers - and those are potentially your customers: you have to protect your reputation here by not being associated with such people!
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Originally Posted by James B. Allen View Post

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by *******,
        What are you doing approving people to mail for your WSO and then after I mail deny the approval? That's BS man. Go ahead and give me a reply here or I'll post this in your WSO thread. I have mailed already ... let the traffic come through.
        As an affiliate, that would definitely be a problem. He was approved, promoted to his list, and there was nothing claimed to be wrong with the promotion.

        Sales from the mailing should be counted and paid.


        Originally Posted by James B. Allen View Post

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by *******,

        TRAFFIC SOURCE = EMAIL

        COPY = ABOUT CONVERSIONS.

        Don't **** with me. The conversation proves that you're an idiot stealing traffic claiming 200 clicks is a conversion sample size. You're supposed selling something on CONVERSIONS so you should realize 200 clicks is NO SAMPLE SIZE or do you want me to point that out in public for you and teach you a lesson? Jack ass.

        Email submitted. **** YOU.
        As a merchant, that would be the end of the affiliate. I don't care if the person is sending sales or not. They're done.

        ----------

        Let me guess - the affiliate had not bought the product they were promoting.

        .
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    • Profile picture of the author Rageki
      Originally Posted by Suthan M View Post

      I think if it is your WSO - it is ULTIMATELY your prerogative to want to turn him on or off.. Not his.

      BUT.. I think you should have asked all the question and validate BEFORE you approved him the first time.

      You made the call to get him in, you gave him your endorsement to promote, he promoted and you banned him? No wonder he feels that way-especially more if this guy is a new guy who is doing this. Forget he being new- I will be pissed too and put a ban on promoting your product ever. The right thing that you should have done is asked him first, before banning him- but of course, things are already dealt so lets go to the next point.

      In your case right now, I will talk to him out, and check out his stats i.e email/ list etc. You only have DOUBTS and until you are proven right- he is not guilty. And if he is not wrong (FYI: Its not wrong to have low conversion) you owe him a big apology.
      I agree, he might be a newbie. He probaly trying to get some cash, but doing it the wrong way. You should of ask the questions before accepting him. Its is lot more safer.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    Hey James,

    I don't see that you did anything wrong - you're in the driver seat and had a legitimate concern that you could NOT have forseen during the initial vetting process.

    I'm running into a similar problem on something else and quite frankly, it's driven me to develop a new system to track my affiliates post approval. Like you, I get concerned when I get a sudden influx of non-converting traffic for a number of reasons.

    In my opinion, after the approval process, you move on to the performance process, which is ongoing.

    That same person will probably piss and moan after sending 1000 unique visitors and say your product sucks and doesn't convert.

    I don't think it's too much to expect affiliates to perform or get shut down.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gail_Curran
      The fact that he was rude and started calling you a thief is more than enough reason to cut him off and ban him from selling your product.

      If he had been professional and polite in his inquiry, and forthcoming in his response to your questions, then I'm sure that the incident would have resolved differently. He has no one but himself to blame, and you sure don't owe him an apology.

      Believe it or not, there are people out there who will deal with conflicts, problems, and misunderstandings in a civil and reasonable manner.

      Life's too short to put up with a$$holes.
      .
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      • Profile picture of the author TopKat22
        I agree with Gail. From the owner's point of view, which is you, you have to protect your reputation. I would try to continue to stay in friendly communication with the person and stress your desire to resolve this to his and your benefit but until you have the information requested, I would've continued the ban.

        From the affiliates point of view, maybe they just didn't know.

        However, this particular person should've acted more professional then maybe you both could've work it out to everyone's benefit.

        This is a lesson learned for you, other owners who read this, and affiliates.

        Find out what is expected ahead of time. Get all your questions of how they intend to promote ahead of time.

        I have found over and over again in business, that you have to lay out all expectations, intentions, rules, guidelines, etc ahead of time. It is only when something changes mid-stream that anyone ever gets upset.

        I hope that you and this person can work this all out. If not, lesson learned. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    Sorry, missed the follow up post James - just based on his tone, I'd say you're a lot more friendly and patient than I would have been.

    He's wrong by the way - if I were promoting something and got no conversions after 200 visitors, I'd be surprised and looking for what might be wrong.
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    • Profile picture of the author James B. Allen
      Hi Mike,

      Thanks so much for your feedback. I can understand someone getting upset in this situation - what I can't understand is their reaction to a simple request.

      I've just received another PM from this guy, and honestly at this point a feel very uncomfortable. Maybe this is the way the kids all "discuss" things with each other these days - but it's not my style.

      - James
      ------------------------
      You're a moron. Expect to be privately blacklisted by 90% of all of those who send significant traffic to WSOs based on your "conversion expert" status stealing my mail traffic after 200 clicks. THAT IS RUDE. Now all clicks you get are FREE you are STEALING. You want to pay me for those clicks? I sell them. You mother ******.
      ------------------------

      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      Sorry, missed the follow up post James - just based on his tone, I'd say you're a lot more friendly and patient than I would have been.

      He's wrong by the way - if I were promoting something and got no conversions after 200 visitors, I'd be surprised and looking for what might be wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author Will Perkins
    James, I've got about 400 affiliates in my network. I've blocked dozens and have had a LOT of people whine and complain to me saying they'd ruin my life. Most people go and buy an adswap for the offer. They don't control the traffic because it's "junk" so to speak.

    Forget about him, enjoy the GOOD sales coming in, and move on. Don't lose any sleep over some stupid guy online...

    Not trying to sound rude/be mean, just being rather honest. It's your WSO, not his. You decide who can/can't promote it.
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  • Profile picture of the author James B. Allen
    This is just really upsetting to me. I've had so many positive experiences with all the people I've work with here. I rarely ever have runs ins with people where I get threatened and get accused and called names like this.

    I totally understand if this guy was mad when I turned turned his affiliate status off so I could check this with him. But why couldn't he have just responded to my requests and sorted this out with me instead of get this fired up and being - frankly - just plain mean and rude.

    I will be MUCH more careful in the future about who I approve, so I won't run into this again.

    Lesson learned.

    - James B. Allen
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  • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
    He has already shown you what you need to know, just by his response.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Burton
    From the posted conversation, and your explanation, I don't see too many issues with how you handled it. The only place I would really disagree with your position would be on not reaching out to this affiliate before deactivating him, since he had obviously done something to generate traffic (legit or not)

    His initial response was to start with threats, not with a more courteous "Hey, what's up? You switched off my affiliate approval but I've already sent my mailing out. I'd hate to miss out on a commission. Could you tell me what's going on?"
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    • Profile picture of the author IsGabeW
      Based off the email series, I say you are in the clear. Ok maybe you should have talked to him first. But the fact that you did try to have a friendly dialogue with him and he still acted like that, then I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
    Re-reading this thread again with all the PMs that you have posted.

    Well, you made a wrong call when you approved him and de-activated this guy without telling.. I am gonna stick to that.. All this would not have happened if this did not trigger it.

    But.. the way he ran his mouth with his threats, curses and all- well, I would ask you to just ban him again. If his initial mail was angry (that is normal and expected), and he tones down after that (when he hears your explanation and how to solve them)- then, it would have been different, but expletives throughout the whole message sequence is a serious matter. And from the sound of things, he is not interested to solving this issue, but prefer the "hell have no fury" solution. Well, it is his loss then.

    There is no way i am going to be doing biz with "kids" who have to resort to name calling and threats. You should not too.
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  • Profile picture of the author sam m
    It is like the kid who stuck his hand in the candy jar that you told not to,
    you see the crumbs on the floor he see you coming and you ask him how did that get?
    he says "I do not not know" all the time standing there with his with his hands behind him.

    You ask him to stick your hand out and he sticks out the hand that is clean and empty,
    you ask him to stick out your other hand and he ask why in an angry tone of voice

    WHY IS HE ANGRY? LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    I simply do not do further business with whiners. Once they have shown themselves to be one that's it. I label them, discharge them and then immediately get on with my day. I get called all kinds of names because of this but it's from the whiners. Who gives a **** what a whiner thinks anyways.

    I will be more than happy to handle all correspondences with this bozo on your behalf. Put me in coach!
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  • Profile picture of the author James B. Allen
    Thanks all around for the feedback.

    It's easy to get blindsided by people's reactions online like this. I really appreciate the feedback everyone's given.

    Lessons learned:

    1. I need to do an even better job vetting out people who apply to the Warrior Plus WSO Pro affiliate program.

    2. I should contact an affiliate BEFORE banning their affiliate status when an issue like this pops up. (Though judging by this guys reaction, it wouldn't have made a difference in this case.)

    3. I need to stop being so sensitive - and get used to people reacting like this and not let it get to me.

    Time to move on.

    Hopefully this guy will have settled down by now and won't bother me again. I really do hope he "warns" others about me - would rather not have any people he associates with ever consider promoting my products or services.

    Much appreciated,

    James B. Allen

    P.S. The dude's been perma-banned as an affiliate and added to my WF PM ignore list. I won't be called names and talked to like that - no matter what.
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  • Profile picture of the author James B. Allen
    1. We discussed it right after. There was no more traffic coming. He was given an opportunity to answer a couple simple questions and have the affiliate ban lifted.

    2. Nothing was posted here until AFTER he was upset. If he's willing to write to somebody like that in private, I have no issue sharing it.

    I'd be concerned that he's out there PM'ing his friends and getting ready to turn this into a troll fest now - so I'll walk away at this point.



    - James B. Allen

    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    You turned him off without contacting him. Then you posted private correspondence on a public board.

    Then you wonder why he was upset.

    Come on.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      No one has PM'd me, by the way.
      Geez, I wonder why...



      Ken Caudill - the Pitbull of Internet Marketing. :p

      j/k

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    • Profile picture of the author Justin Says
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Oh, you posted private correspondence on a public forum AFTER he was upset.

      I guess that makes it all better.

      No one has PM'd me, by the way.

      Thanks for your smug reply. If you want to treat your affiliates that way, it's your product, bud.
      He didn't post the private correspondence or post the persons name (as far as I know).

      I think he has reason to ask Warriors what we think, as it shows that there are jerkwads out there. I don't know the exact situation, but we have rights to ban people from promoting our stuff whenever and however we want.
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      • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        If we banned everyone whose traffic did not convert with a 200 click sample, this would quickly become a very lonely place.
        I doubt it. The WF was popular before WSOs had affiliate programs. Honestly, it's just attracting people I'd rather not have on this forum to begin with.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        If we banned everyone whose traffic did not convert with a 200 click sample, this would quickly become a very lonely place.
        Yeah, maybe he was waiting for the full moon to send the rest of his sample. :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        So I told him what I think.

        I think, too, that when you email someone, that correspondence is private and not for public consumption with or without names.

        If you think it's a good idea to do business by the seat of your pants, that's fine with me.

        If we banned everyone whose traffic did not convert with a 200 click sample, this would quickly become a very lonely place.

        Ken - this isn't about the guy not converting in 200 clicks - it's about that being different from everyone else's results enough to question what methods he is using to promote - legal? Illegal? Blackhat?

        People HAVE to know what their affiliates are doing because they ultimately are responsible for affiliate actions.

        As far as who it was - can you tell us that? You can't. The information was given but not attributed and in this case it was relevant to his conundrum. While I can understand the point you are making, I don't really think that there's a problem here.

        As far as business correspondence goes, you might like to consider the fact that a business email may be openly distributed throughout a business at any time unless you expressly include the word "confidential" and the name of the person it is to on the outside of the envelope - in this case, in the subject line. If you do not explicitly express that a piece of correspondence is private, you have no right to expect the company to keep it that way.
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        • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          Ken - this isn't about the guy not converting in 200 clicks - it's about that being different from everyone else's results enough to question what methods he is using to promote - legal? Illegal? BlueFart?

          People HAVE to know what their affiliates are doing because they ultimately are responsible for affiliate actions.

          As far as who it was - can you tell us that? You can't. The information was given but not attributed and in this case it was relevant to his conundrum. While I can understand the point you are making, I don't really think that there's a problem here.

          As far as business correspondence goes, you might like to consider the fact that a business email may be openly distributed throughout a business at any time unless you expressly include the word "confidential" and the name of the person it is to on the outside of the envelope - in this case, in the subject line. If you do not explicitly express that a piece of correspondence is private, you have no right to expect the company to keep it that way.
          Once again we agree-except that when someone sends an abusive communication to me, I don't feel bound to protect them from the embarrassment of others seeing what a creep they are, just because they put my name and the word "confidential" on it. Unless I specifically assured them they could go ahead and vent and I would keep quite about it, I would feel totally free to quote them to anyone and everyone that's interested. It might be a good lesson to watch what they say-if they don't want people seeing it, maybe they shouldn't say it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        So I told him what I think.

        I think, too, that when you email someone, that correspondence is private and not for public consumption with or without names.

        If you think it's a good idea to do business by the seat of your pants, that's fine with me.

        If we banned everyone whose traffic did not convert with a 200 click sample, this would quickly become a very lonely place.
        Let me see if I understand your rule here: if a person sends me abusive pm or email, the fact that it's a pm or email means that ethics prohibit me from quoting the offending message?

        Sorry, but that is a ridiculous rule; if anyone ever sends me an email or pm calling me an idiot, thief, or in any way insults me, and then threatens to slander me all over the web, screw their privacy; it's not like I assured them the "conversation" would remain between us.

        It isn't slander (like what the a**hole is threatening would be) to merely quote them, and leaving their name out of it is a courtesy James extended that the jerk definitely should be on his knees thanking James for, because he certainly did not have that or any other favor coming to him.

        The fact that it's called a private message does not mean anyone has the right to send hate mail there and be assured that nobody but the recipient will ever see what an ass the sender is. If it ever happens to me, I will quote the low life mf without a second thought. It's not like receiving an abusive communication makes me their therapist, just because the person is taking out their 'issues' on me.

        You definitely backed the wrong pony in this thread.
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        • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          You turned him off without contacting him. Then you posted private correspondence on a public board.

          Then you wonder why he was upset.

          Come on.
          Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

          if he has pre paid for advertising and cant turn it off i guess he would be irritated, your still going to be getting the traffic
          I agree, James you can rationalize it all you want - you had no justification for turning him off. None whatsoever.

          On the other hand, if you contacted him before, and he was rude - that's a different story. But that's not what happened.

          He trusted you and your offer and sent the traffic.

          Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post


          ....
          Sorry, but that is a ridiculous rule; if anyone ever sends me an email or pm calling me an idiot, thief, or in any way insults me, and then threatens to slander me all over the web, screw their privacy; it's not like I assured them the "conversation" would remain between us.

          ...
          OK, so if you want to play by these rules, the guy was also allowed to overreact when the traffic he sent was, technically stolen.
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          • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
            Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul View Post

            OK, so if you want to play by these rules, the guy was also allowed to overreact when the traffic he sent was, technically stolen.
            Name calling and threats are generally not cool in my world. Whether someone is "allowed" to overreact isn't at issue. Obviously nobody can control what someone else types, but name calling has it's consequences, and being exposed as a jerk is first and foremost among them.

            Calling the traffic "stolen" ("technically" or not) is just plain ridiculous, and the guy owes James an apology for that. Now you're signing on to the slanderous charge, and arguably also owe him an apology for it. You need to think a bit more before posting.

            The traffic came and went, and did not make the op a penny. Traffic is not a thing, it is an event, and it's over, so how do you steal it after the fact? 200 people clicked a link is all it means-they are long gone and didn't make anyone a dime, so what is there to "steal"?

            If James was posting sales from that traffic, and not giving the affiliate his share, there would be theft, but otherwise, where is the loss, and how does he go about returning the "stolen" event? The jerk still has his list, which is where he finally said the traffic came from. No loss to him at all.

            This situation is analogous to a car dealership that takes on a new salesperson on commission only, who brings 200 prospects into the showroom, and fails to close a single one. Then the dealership fires the salesperson because all the other salespeople close 5 for every 100 prospects, and they figure the new one can't close, and doesn't warrant the desk space. So the guy starts threatening to tell the world the dealership "stole" the traffic he brought them, even though that traffic didn't bring a cent into the business. Such a person deserves to be thrown out and told to never darken their door again-the theft charge would be laughing fodder on the sales floor for weeks after.
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            • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
              Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

              This situation is analogous to a car dealership that takes on a new salesperson on commission only, who brings 200 prospects into the showroom, and fails to close a single one. Then the dealership fires the salesperson because all the other salespeople close 5 for every 100 prospects, and they figure the new one can't close, and doesn't warrant the desk space. So the guy starts threatening to tell the world the dealership "stole" the traffic he brought them, even though that traffic didn't bring a cent into the business. Such a person deserves to be thrown out and told to never darken their door again-the theft charge would be laughing fodder on the sales floor for weeks after.
              Spoken like someone who's been in the car biz, eh?
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              • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
                Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                Spoken like someone who's been in the car biz, eh?
                We will never speak of this again.
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                • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                  Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

                  We will never speak of this again.

                  spent more than my share of nights desking deals for a dealer you probably know since you're in Seattle. So yeah - discussion over :rolleyes:
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            • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
              I think the OP messed up BOTH times

              the first one was banning him prematurely (my opinion..)
              the second was unbanning him after all of the abuse.


              Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post


              The traffic came and went, and did not make the op a penny. Traffic is not a thing, it is an event, and it's over, so how do you steal it after the fact? 200 people clicked a link is all it means-they are long gone and didn't make anyone a dime, so what is there to "steal"?
              he might very well still end up with a sale or two from that traffic, as well as some traffic over the next week from that original email.

              Maybe the affiliate just put the affiliate link in the bottom of an email newsletter as a recommended resource, with no other pre-sell at all besides 1 or 2 sentences (I do this a TON, and it can work extremely well when done over a series of emails).

              Sorry - unless this was a month after the fact, it just wasn't cool to just blindly cut him off.

              That being said - the affiliates response was so abrasive that I would have kicked him out permenantly at that point just for being abusive. You'll notice most web hosts have clauses like this now for their customers - be abusive to them, and your cut off.


              Originally Posted by Greg guitar View Post

              This situation is analogous to a car dealership that takes on a new salesperson on commission only, who brings 200 prospects into the showroom, and fails to close a single one. Then the dealership fires the salesperson because all the other salespeople close 5 for every 100 prospects, and they figure the new one can't close, and doesn't warrant the desk space. So the guy starts threatening to tell the world the dealership "stole" the traffic he brought them, even though that traffic didn't bring a cent into the business. Such a person deserves to be thrown out and told to never darken their door again-the theft charge would be laughing fodder on the sales floor for weeks after.
              The dealer's marketing provides the almost ALL of the traffic at a dealership, not the sale person. Any sales person that has his own traffic is going to be a top producer with his own client base that follows him (ie, he'll sell a lot).

              It's more like a new salesman coming on, working 200 prospects that were provided via the dealership's marketing, not gettting any sale, but leaving and some how still getting paid if those people end up buying a week later. Or maybe setting the phone on his desk to forward calls to his mobile (and forwarding his emails to his yahoo acct), then going to work for another dealer w/o the first dealer disabling the all of the forwarding.
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              • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                One thing is for sure James, you're a patient guy!

                I'm in agreement that it shouldn't have been disabled in the first place, but that's no way to put in a complaint.

                I believe people should communicate with a bit of respect in the same way they would on a face to face basis. There's too many people who don Internet Attitudes. You just have to take the rough with the smooth to quote a cliche.
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          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
            Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul View Post

            I agree, James you can rationalize it all you want - you had no justification for turning him off. None whatsoever.

            On the other hand, if you contacted him before, and he was rude - that's a different story. But that's not what happened.

            He trusted you and your offer and sent the traffic.



            OK, so if you want to play by these rules, the guy was also allowed to overreact when the traffic he sent was, technically stolen.
            That the traffic the affiliate sent was performing so differently than the rest of his traffic is justification enough.

            The tone of the correspondence afterward, and the continued refusal to disclose methods, suggests to me that his initial decision was correct.

            Further, there have been a few comments like, "if you did that to me, I'd never send you any traffic again." If the quality of traffic you were sending is trashy and not up to par, I wouldn't want you to send me any more.

            Since the seller is ultimately held responsible for the actions of affiliates (just ask Frank Kern if you doubt that), James was perfectly within his rights - and probably smart - to suspend the affiliate temporarily. If I were him, I wouldn't have turned him back on...

            And to those of you who think that because this affiliate was initially approved he has license to operate with impunity with no adult supervision, I'd like to offer the observation that an idea like that is just ludicrous.
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            • Profile picture of the author weblink29
              Regardless of how the situation started I would not want to be involved in any business relationship with somebody who can't discuss things without being rude and obnoxious. If he acts this way with you...I would not trust him promoting any product.

              If you can't act professionally you don't belong in the game.
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        • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          If you receive hate mail, or spam, it seems to me that the best course of action would be to report it to the moderators and keep it out of the public forum.

          It has nothing whatsoever to do with ponies. When I start caring what the mob thinks, shoot me.
          First, it isn't a mob; it's just a group of Warriors that happens to think the op was in the right, and were kind enough to post thoughtful responses. If you are interested in growing as a person, perhaps you might want to start caring what intelligent people think.

          "Backing the wrong pony" was a metaphor, but apparently one that was lost on you, so let me clarify. What I meant is that you are taking sides in a conflict, and you took the side of the abusive jerk who was in the wrong from the moment he started name calling and making threats, against a guy who is merely trying to protect his business and do the right thing. Therefore, I say you backed the wrong Warrior (I mean-a member of this forum). I didn't mean to imply that the op is an actual horse, nor to change the subject to talking about horses, so my apologies for any confusion. You are quite right to correct me-this is not about horses, ponies of otherwise-it's about people, and I should have been more clear about that for the literal minded among us.

          Second, the op is obviously a decent guy who is trying to do the right thing here. He went overboard in trying to be reasonable by allowing the guy back in. That was his only mistake, other than being too concerned about what a jerkwad might say about him.

          Third, we weren't discussing the "best course of action" with regard to the privacy issue; we were discussing whether it is a violation (as you claim), of the creep's privacy to quote insults you think he has a right to expect nobody but their target would ever see.

          Fourth, I agree that he should probably bring the offensive messages to the attention of the mods. He actually may have been doing the idiot a favor by not reporting him before trying to work it out. Asking for thoughts in this thread is part of his process of trying to work out the best course of action.

          Fifth, Nobody has a "right" to make insults with the assurance that they will be kept private; and btw, the creep's privacy was protected anyway; as Sal correctly pointed out, there is no way to identify the abusive moron from what James posted. I kind of wish there was-it would be a good warning to the rest of us to avoid doing business with him.

          Bottom line: the best rule to follow: if you would be ashamed to have others read the nasty things you say to someone, don't say them expecting the target of your abuse to keep it secret to protect your "rights". Unless you are paying them to be your lawyer or therapist, you have no right to stop them from telling the whole story.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            he should probably bring the offensive messages to the attention of the mods
            The affiliate program is through WarriorPlus - not the Warrior Forum. The mods have enough to do without taking on mediation of affiliate arguments.
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            • Profile picture of the author drmani
              James, EVERYTHING is a learning experience.

              In your place, I would modify my affiliate agreement suitably
              to prevent such a situation happening again.

              Oh, and I'd turn the affiliate back on to confirm that the
              traffic really isn't converting before going further. I've
              had situations where people click, take a look, and then come
              back to order - and by banning the referring affiliate, you
              might be depriving that affiliate of legitimate referral
              fees.

              Unprofessional communication between vendor and affiliate is
              an entirely different issue, and one where my tolerance level
              would be FAR lower than yours has been in this case

              All success
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              • Profile picture of the author Adam X
                One thing I don't agree with is the posting of private messages on a public forum. The term PM stands for Private Message which is a discussion between two people (not the whole world).

                I used to be a Moderator on a fairly large Board. Posting Private Messages of any kind was against our posting guidelines and led to an immediate suspension from the board. Do it twice and it was a Permanent Ban.

                The affilaite in question could come here and defend himself, but given the Private conversations that were posted, I guess there will be little chance of that. So why even bother to say who is right and who is wrong?
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          • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
            Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

            No, nothing went over my head. You have a long, long way to go before you get there.

            I am aware that you do not respect the confidentiality of private messages, that you consider public forums a place to use private correspondence to embarrass people and that you don't understand the use of the word mob.

            Thank you for making yourself clear.
            Okay, I get that the sarcasm upset you, but you have to admit that you set yourself up for it when you acted exactly as if it had gone over your head, though in reality I'm sure it didn't. That it had "nothing whatsoever to do with ponies" was a pretty lame comment any way you look at it.

            Since I don't know you, I do have to allow for the possibility that you're right: I have a "long, long way to go" before I could ever say anything that is over your head, but your posts seem to indicate that you're bent on proving the opposite.

            I believe I did understand your use of the word "mob", and I'm going to assume (confident as you are in your superior mind), you were quite aware of it's negative connotation when you used it. I stand by my comment; calling those who disagree with you, a 'mob" whose thoughts can have no affect on you isn't exactly the characteristic stance of someone interested in open minded, reasoned discussion, personal growth, or even just avoiding the appearance of arrogance.

            As to my lack of respect for the confidentiality of a pm; you got one thing right: I have no respect for confidentiality when it comes to someone coming at another person with insults and threats-it's stunning that you make no distinction between that and a non-abusive message that might reveal something personally embarrassing to the sender-obviously that should be kept private, but they are worlds apart.

            Your unqualified comment that I "consider public forums a place to use private correspondence to embarrass people" is beyond ridiculous. Are you really incapable of seeing the obvious difference between a truly private conversation, and someone hurling unbidden insults and threats by way of "private messages"?

            At what point would you stop insisting the abuser has a right to keep the abuse private-physical threats perhaps? I'm sure you draw the line somewhere. I just happen to draw it at a different spot: I think any abuse (insults and threats qualify as such in my book), deserves zero respect, and one of the most potent weapons in any abuser's arsonal is secrecy, which should never be granted, regardless how the abuse is delivered.

            Abuse is always abuse regardless of whether it's done publicly or behind (metaphorically or literally) closed doors, and one of the best, and least destructive defenses the recipient has is to shine a light on the behavior. That is often all it takes to end it and get the abuser to come to his senses, apologize, and act like a decent person.

            But don't worry, this abuser you're siding with, will probably be spared having to learn anything at all, since James bent over backward to try to do right by him after all the abuse, by not revealing anything here that could expose him, though I realize you want him protected from even having to possibly be embarrassed in his own mind by seeing his own words quoted, regardless of the fact that he remains anonymous. A more extreme position on behalf of the right to abuse people in private and have it remain private would be hard to imagine.
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    I don't think you did anything wrong, other than you should have talked to him prior to turning him off. Because of the way he reacted, I doubt you would have got the information you asked for, so turning him off may well have been the right decision.

    I just have to ask, what is wrong about him not converting? If he is generating traffic, and none of it converts, how does that affect you, other than it skews your stats. If you are going for perfect stats, then that may be one thing. But I would think that the ultimate goal is to sell products. If this person is working to send traffic and is getting nothing out of it, does that really matter to you?
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Obviously he was angry, but I agree you should have approached him beforehand to better understand how he would send traffic.

    And perhaps you should have contacted him before you shut him off to touch base. Maybe he wouldn't have reacted in the way he did, then, though you don't have to take responsibility for his reaction, for sure. He obviously acted in an angry way and obviously didn't want to work it out, but perhaps he has a large list that's not really relevant to your offer, or something like that. Or maybe he even bought a solo ad, which I hope he wouldn't do just to send your offer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    if he has pre paid for advertising and cant turn it off i guess he would be irritated, your still going to be getting the traffic
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  • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
    I can't believe you re-approved him after he THREATENED you, called you an IDIOT, a THIEF, and disrespected you like that.

    You should tell him to Go f*** himself, not re-approve him. You should also be reporting his posts to the Mods.

    If ANYONE EVER sent me PMs like that, not only would I blacklist them from my WSOs and lists, but I would also make sure the mods knew he was threatening people through the forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Justin Says
    To be honest. If anyones rude to me, I just don't deal with them.

    The point of working online (to me anyone) is so that I don't have to deal with rude customers (when I worked for a pizza shop, it was crazy).

    So don't just allow yourself to be pushed around.

    If you didn't scam the dude, he has no reason to call you a thief, he needs to grow up for acting the way he did and personally I wouldn't allow him to promote my stuff.

    You want good and honest people to help you promote your products, not assholes.

    and because you posted right before me:

    @Cool Hand Luke, absolutely agreed.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Yeah ya did things a bit backward - but your communications with the affiliate showed you were trying to protect your business and the misunderstanding could have been worked out if you had been dealing with someone rational.

    I have found that extreme rage is often an intimidation tactic used by someone who is guilty to keep the "accuser" from asking further questions. Don't fall for it. If you have an affiliate who is making claims that should not be made, YOU will be the one answering to the FTC over the issue if a false advertising claim is made.

    I would never trust anyone who acted in this violent of a manner whether there was a misunderstanding, a mistake made, etc.

    Get back to him and tell him you are sorry that you acted before questioning, it was a mistake and you are human, however - considering his demeanor you cannot risk working with him further and that has to rest as a final decision since you have absolutely no idea of his promotion technique, yet are legally responsible for it.

    You learned something -- he needs to learn something, too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Yeah ya did things a bit backward - but your communications with the affiliate showed you were trying to protect your business and the misunderstanding could have been worked out if you had been dealing with someone rational.

      I have found that extreme rage is often an intimidation tactic used by someone who is guilty to keep the "accuser" from asking further questions. Don't fall for it. If you have an affiliate who is making claims that should not be made, YOU will be the one answering to the FTC over the issue if a false advertising claim is made.

      I would never trust anyone who acted in this violent of a manner whether there was a misunderstanding, a mistake made, etc.

      Get back to him and tell him you are sorry that you acted before questioning, it was a mistake and you are human, however - considering his demeanor you cannot risk working with him further and that has to rest as a final decision since you have absolutely no idea of his promotion technique, yet are legally responsible for it.

      You learned something -- he needs to learn something, too.
      What do you know-Sal and I are actually in agreement-proving anything can happen here on the WF! Good post (not that you care what I think).
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  • Profile picture of the author Mary Wilhite
    Yes James, there's the possibility that the dude was angry
    because it was paid traffic.

    However, on his end, he should have talked to you decently.

    I see faults on both ends here.

    The problem could have been avoided
    through 1) Proper communication and 2) Decency.

    You'll have to accept the outcome of that and he'll
    have to accept whatever action you take. When
    both sides contributed to the problem, that's
    just the way things go.

    By the way, it's good that he isn't responding
    on this thread, otherwise we'll need a lot of popcorns
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Ken,
    Oh, you posted private correspondence on a public forum
    It's still private, in the sense that no-one has any way I can see to know who sent him those messages. Otherwise, this would have been a Rule #1 deletion.


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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Fulton
    Ultimately you have the final say on who promotes your WSO and the way this person has handled things is far from professional BUT 180 clicks is NOT a big sample at all, yeah you should have made at least a sale but what if the next 180 clicks delivered 10 sales, you wouldn't turn him off then?

    Did you turn him off to save your EPC, Visitor Value ?

    Is that all vendors worry about , you will know who your top affiliates are but there are many who struggle to make 1 sale and when they do it's an achievement

    I say don't dish the little guys, if everyone stops them from promoting what chance do they have ?
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom B
    Banned
    James, as you said, you should have contacted him prior to turning his account off since he could have paid for traffic. A lot of times, people think in bad terms when something like this happens. I would imagine he thought you were ripping him off even after your polite emails.

    Personally, after those emails, I wouldn't have turned him back on. 200 clicks isn't a large amount of traffic for the top affiliates. haha Even if he was testing the offer, he wouldn't care if you turned him off if there were no conversions.

    You will get responses like that from time to time. Surprisingly, you haven't got more pm's like that just for being a friend of Kevin Riley.
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  • Profile picture of the author LymeJosh
    There is no reason to deal with anyone who acts out like that. I personally wouldn't put any effort into this guy. Move on, concentrate on what matters.
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    You turned him off without contacting him. Then you posted private correspondence on a public board.

    Then you wonder why he was upset.

    Come on.
    Not only that, the reason for turning him off in the first place was bogus. It's no wonder he thought he was trying to steal commissions from him. Sure, he has the right to turn him off, but having the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. If it were me, I wouldn't care if you turned me back on or not, because there's no way in hell I'd ever send another person your way. Too risky, imho. And if you demanded to see anything of mine, I'd tell you to go pleasure yourself, and move on, lol.

    Now, having said that, threats are over the top, and if he threatened me, I would tell him to go pleasure himself as well, and have nothing else to do with him. He's not entitled to any response from you, so don't give it to him. Your time belongs to you, so you get to decide who gets any of it. Just cut him off, and move on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Allard
    When I read your title my thought was "ask where the traffic is coming from first" but you did ask him. I don't think you did anything wrong, I'd probably do the same thing if it were hurting my conversions. He could have been sending the traffic straight from social media or something even worse

    I guess there's a lesson out of it though, ask before approving affiliates. I'm sure a lot of people want to get as many people on board as possible but you have to look at the pros and cons.

    And this guy sounds like a D**K anyways. I always use a redirect from my own URL for affiliate links and I think all affiliates should do the same in case this type of thing happens. Really it's his own fault if he didn't do this.

    You can't trust anyone- especially in business. This goes for vendors and affiliates. Everyone is responsible for their own business so do what you can to protect yourself.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Koop
    Other than not inquiring with the affiliate first, or trying to communicate with him/her before deciding to shut the affiliate down, I don't think you did anything wrong.

    To those that question why you would want to stop traffic, regardless of its quality, let me say this...

    [1] I have had far more than my "fair share" of spam complaints from people driven to my offers from an affiliate-spammer. I've received dozens of obscene emails... threats of legal reprisal, etc.

    All because they mistakenly assumed that I had something to do with the spam email they received in the first place.

    [2] Since your WSO-PRO affiliates can see the conversion stats, you want to protect them as much as you can. True, 180 clicks shouldn't hurt an offer that is getting decent traffic to it, but if the "garbage traffic" is large, it can really mess with your conversion stats AND your ability to get Quality Affiliates to want to promote for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
    Originally Posted by James B. Allen View Post

    I need some feedback from the group here.

    I've got a WSO going - using Mike Lantz's WSO Pro.

    I've been pretty careful about the affiliates I approve - which has worked out well. Almost everyone who's sent even a handful of traffic has converted.

    This morning - checking my stats, I noticed one affiliate had sent over 180 clicks with no conversions. Compared to all the other numbers, this was a big surprise.

    There was no more traffic coming in at the time so I turned him off so I could check with him about his source / copy etc...

    Before I could write back to him, I got a PM from him.

    It was rude in tone - telling me to turn him back on ASAP.

    I wrote back and told him to please tell me a bit more about his list and show me the copy he used to promote, so I could make sure the traffic was legit before I turned his approval back on.

    Seemed like the safe and professional thing to do.

    He replied calling me a theif, threatening to tell the world I was a theif, and telling me how he is going to "out me" - etc... etc... He said 200 wasn't a big sample size and insisted I turn him back on.

    I said I'd be happy to - if he'd just give me the details I requested.

    I received several replies from him like this - but no details of his list or the copy he used to promote.

    I am very uncomfortable now after getting several threatening and rude PMs from him.

    I keep hearing how carefeul we have to be with affiliates on WSO Pro - so I feel I did the right thing to stop his promotion and double check first.

    I've been here a long time - I don't want to upset anybody, but I want to be safe with my promos as well.

    Your thoughts?

    - James

    Looks like I'll be the contrary fly in the ointment here.

    Since you approved this affiliate and their only "crime" was to not get any sales for their clicks, you had no basis to turn them off. IMO, that's not right. What if it was you and you'd just set up a PPC campaign? Or you spent time creating a video to promote it?

    However, afterwards they did turn abusive. Not a crime in itself, but a stupid and unprofessional way of handling the situation.

    At this point, you seem to be pushed into a situation where you cannot turn them back one. But, initially, you should not have turned them off after approval - unless they were doing something unethical or illegal.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Smith
    I don't approve everyone that comes through. Only the ones that I know. Stick to that and avoid any future issues with jerks like him. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael D Forbes
    I also disagree that the OP should have shut this affiliate off based on 200 clicks.

    Sure, you can kind of see where it's headed... what, maybe 1000 clicks without a sale? (200 clicks IS a decently reliable sample) Yes, it's an EPC killer if you don't have a ton of other traffic, which makes it justifiable to open the dialogue, but to just shut him down? Bad move in my opinion.

    I think any of you would be mighty miffed if you were shut off without reason, I suspect some of you wouldn't control your temper much better than the "guilty" party in this scenario. It's human for something like that to get under your skin, though I allow that it has no place at all among professionals to be so crude about it.

    Maybe the guy DIDN'T buy a PPC campaign or solo ad, maybe he just had an exceptionally bad mailing. It does happen.

    Let's say he was mailing his own list... if so, he mailed in good faith, knowing he was using a valuable slot to mail for you. Nothing like feeling you just had your opportunity jerked out from under you. Think about it, you'd be upset too, wouldn't you?

    Is this really any different than going in and setting an affiliates commission to zero because you think you have a good reason? I don't think there's any difference at all. Are you 100% positive that the next click wouldn't have been a sale? Or maybe the next 10? I know, unlikely, but are you SURE? Of course not.

    You made a mistake in approving him without more info, we've probably all done that. The right thing to do is suck it up and make it your mistake, not his.

    Yep, he was a flaming jerk by the sound of things, but I don't think it's good form to cut someone off just because they were a jerk either. Yes, I know some of you think I'm an idiot for saying that, but you can trust I'll be nice to you when it's your turn.

    I've been on the receiving end of 1000 junk clicks. Yes, it hurt my EPC a bit, which might have put off a couple affiliates, but to turn it into a catfight? Nah, not worth it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Ken,
    consider public forums a place to use private correspondence to embarrass people
    I'm not sure how anyone was embarrassed, given that no-one but James knows who sent him those PMs. It's not like that sort of language or threat is especially unusual here.

    Kay,
    The affiliate program is through WarriorPlus - not the Warrior Forum. The mods have enough to do without taking on mediation of affiliate arguments.
    I believe that comment was in response to the use of the PM system for delivering a "threat." Given the fact that there are good and bad points on both sides of the argument, I would personally have told them to sort it out themselves, had it been referred to me.

    But yeah... The Warrior Pro end of it isn't something I'd even touch. Not a situation we have anything to do with.

    Adam,
    The affilaite in question could come here and defend himself
    From what? If anyone can recognize the affiliate based on that correspondence, they've already had dealings with him and have their own thoughts based on that experience. The rest of us haven't formed any opinions on him, since we don't know who he is.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      From what? If anyone can recognize the affiliate based on that correspondence, they've already had dealings with him and have their own thoughts based on that experience. The rest of us haven't formed any opinions on him, since we don't know who he is.


      Paul
      I disagree, Paul. You can tell from the responses in this thread that many people have come to the conclusion that the affiliate in question is a jerk. If he came and posted in this thread, he'd probably be attacked, depending on what he posts.
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      • Profile picture of the author halfpoint
        Neither of you handled the situation well.

        Sure, the way he threatened you and swore at you etc was not warranted, but look at it from his perspective.

        If you were promoting someones product and you sent out an email to your list and in the middle of it all, after only a small sample of the total clicks you were expecting, your affiliate link was turned off, you'd be pissed off, too.

        Straight away that screams, "This guy is trying to steal my traffic" which is why I can see how he acted the way he did, although the way he spoke was not warranted.

        I completely understand that you thought you were doing the right thing and you certainly weren't trying to deceive anyone, but I really cannot understand turning off someones affiliate link, before contacting them, on the basis of what? You had a bad feeling that no sales had come from 200 clicks?

        As others have mentioned, wanting to know the things you asked for is fine, but do so before approving the affiliate, not mid promotion.
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      • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
        Originally Posted by Joshua Rigley View Post

        I disagree, Paul. You can tell from the responses in this thread that many people have come to the conclusion that the affiliate in question is a jerk. If he came and posted in this thread, he'd probably be attacked, depending on what he posts.
        Any conclusion people came to is based entirely on the affiliate's own words. That is nothing less than perfectly fair to him. The fact is, he stacked the deck against himself by typing those abusive words in the first place-obviously people think he's a jerk for only one reason-he acted like a jerk.

        Unless James falsified the quotes, if he came in here wanting to defend his behavior, whatever came of it would only be a better outcome due to people having some factual context, because people can better evaluate what is fair if they know what actually happened. Short of being there, the best way to know that, when it comes to a verbal exchange, is to have exact quotes from the exchange to judge it on.

        Now if it turns out James left out some outrageous things he said that the abusive pm's were a response to, he has a perfect opportunity to come in here and say, "wait a minute; before judging, you need to understand what the op is leaving out: before I called him an idiot, he told me to go eff myself in this pm "....."", fleshing it out further, so the context becomes more clear, and people can change their opinions if warranted.

        Never complain when people quote you, as long as the quote is used fairly (not taken in snippets that change it's meaning, leaving out key contextual points as in the example above, etc). If you don't want your words used against you, don't say things in a fit of anger that you would be ashamed to have quoted to your mom, your spouse and kids, or the general public.

        Of course, if the op is giving us the real quotes, then a fit of anger doesn't really describe this guy's behavior-more like abuse is his fall back position when he feels he's been treated unfairly, since he kept at it in numerous messages.
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    I am going against the grain here.

    Personally, I don't think that it is right for a vendor that has already approved an affiliate to turn off the affiliate AFTER they have already mailed for you. I understand your concerns about your numbers being impressive in the WP system, but you did not specify that only high converting affiliates can collect on the traffic that they send..

    For that, I believe that you were wrong.

    The PMs that the affiliate sent you were unprofessional. Despite the situation, it is important for business people to act businesslike. I applaud your decision to right your wrong and turn him back on, but I think you missed an opportunity to tell the guy to f off and and never apply for another of your WSOs again. (You can still be professional and tell somebody to f off when they deserve it
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    Originally Posted by James B. Allen View Post

    Almost everyone who's sent even a handful of traffic has converted.
    There's the benchmark...

    This morning - checking my stats, I noticed one affiliate had sent over 180 clicks with no conversions. Compared to all the other numbers, this was a big surprise.
    An anomaly is spotted...

    There was no more traffic coming in at the time so I turned him off so I could check with him about his source / copy etc...
    He acts on it in a timely manner...

    Before I could write back to him, I got a PM from him.
    Communication took place regarding the issue (it doesn't matter who contacted who first)...

    I received several replies from him like this - but no details of his list or the copy he used to promote.
    The affiliate refuses to cooperate...

    I keep hearing how carefeul we have to be with affiliates on WSO Pro - so I feel I did the right thing to stop his promotion and double check first.
    And there is the underlying and certainly appropriate rational for his actions...

    The affiliate could have quickly and easily helped James and himself to resolve the situation amicably, but elected instead to threaten him and act abusively in his responses. That only adds more weight to his original concern.

    It's not as if he attracted a bunch of affiliates, watched for the traffic to start rolling in and then turned them all off to screw everyone. It was an isolated case that jumped out at him and gave reasonable cause for concern, given some of the affiliate problems that have happened in services like WSO Pro and Digiresults.

    Getting approved as an affiliate doesn't give anyone permission to do whatever they want to promote a product. I've had to boot affiliates in the past myself for misleading customers, spoofing my email address, being uncooperative and spamming people and on and on and on.

    If an affiliate refuses to cooperate with the product owner, then I think he's more than justified in shutting the affiliate down.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    Something to consider is the source of his list..

    I reckon the bulk of the "high converting" traffic was from lists that consisted of a lot of WF members. As members, we're all familar with wso's, the wf forum, and craziness that is the wso section.

    Now, I have a list of over 10,000 people who have bought plenty of products from me that IM related.

    Guess what?

    Hardly ANY of them have probably ever even heard of the WF.

    If I were to send them to a wso, you can bet the conversions would probably be low.

    They might be afraid to buy from someone who often times does not have a "real" website.. buying from forum might be new/unsettling to them... and they will certainly be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of other wso's.

    Again - the affiliates response was over the top, but he might very well have a decent list of buyers in the niche - but they just didn't respond well to a wso.

    If I were him, and it was my list, I would have been pissed that I made no sales from the mailing - and then getting banned would have really pissed me of.

    And to add insult to injury, the vendor questions my list and methods (albeit it in a somewhat veiled way)?? I would have been even more upset.

    I'm not making excuses for the guys resulting behavior, but I can see scenerios where I would have been pretty frustrated if it were me (and some people don't deal with their frustration in socialy acceptable ways ).
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    -Jason

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  • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
    Banned
    I agree 100% with Mike's last post. The OP was well within his bounds to turn off the affiliate, and his post asking us to verify if he did the right thing proves he wasn't trying to rip anyone off, so implying that was his intention is simply stupid. Although, it would have been better if he had tried contacting the affiliate first, then things might have turned out otherwise.

    With that said, let's not turn this into a flame war. It's bad enough that two Warriors cut off their relationship because of a simple understanding, without more Warriors getting up in arms with each other over the issue. It's done and over with, and no amount of arguing is going to change anything.

    I think it's best to just lay this matter to rest, and chalk it up to experience.
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by Joshua Rigley View Post


      With that said, let's not turn this into a flame war. It's bad enough that two Warriors cut off their relationship because of a simple understanding without more Warriors getting up in arms with each other over the issue. It's done and over with, and no amount of arguing is going to change anything.

      I think it's best to just lay this matter to rest, and chalk it up to experience.
      Aw shucks, here comes the voice of reason; fun's over folks!

      Joking!
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  • Profile picture of the author Superstar Marketer
    Yes, should have contacted the affiliate first; however he is fully within the bounds of reason to do what he did.
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  • Profile picture of the author edwood
    Hi James,

    It's easy to see why you would be upset by this. It's obviously just some internet 'hard man', but still...

    As regards the argument that you should have checked out the guy beforehand, I don't buy this.

    Firstly, how are exactly are you supposed to do this? Ask him? Let's face it, he can just lie.

    Secondly, who's got the time -- when you're in the middle on running a WSO -- to start doing 'background checks' on everyone who wants to promote your product. In an ideal world, we would all do it. In the real world...

    Who here can honestly say, hand on heart, that they pre-screen all (or ANY) of their affiliates -- whether for WSOs or for any other affiliate programs they run?

    Anyone?

    In my experience of promoting WSOs, my requests have been approved almost immediately -- and I'm pretty sure not one of them checked me out.

    It's hardly your fault that this guy appears to be sending questionable -- or at best useless -- traffic.

    IMO, you were right to cut him off.

    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author jcruz
    Yeah, if i was this guy i would be pissed. He probably won't promote your wso but it i doubt it will affect you. Honestly considering how small his list was he probably felt you were trying to take his list and pocket the profits. Whatever theres no point on dwelling on it anymore, he will find another product to promote and life moves on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Coby
    Most WSO's convert extremely high and for one reason...

    Email traffic from GOOD Lists...

    My recent WSO - had more than one affiliate send 20 or more sales with less than 200 clicks (some far less than 200 clics)...

    I also have affiliates that nearly always promote my stuff and might only convert at 2-6% but still send sales after 200 clicks...

    When others are converting - I have no problem cutting some one off who isn't...

    However, I think he traffic will still come through - he just wouldn't get the commission - so I don't think it's going to help keep conversions from going down.

    Cheers,
    Coby
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
    Originally Posted by James B. Allen View Post

    I need some feedback from the group here.

    I've got a WSO going - using Mike Lantz's WSO Pro.

    I've been pretty careful about the affiliates I approve - which has worked out well. Almost everyone who's sent even a handful of traffic has converted.

    This morning - checking my stats, I noticed one affiliate had sent over 180 clicks with no conversions. Compared to all the other numbers, this was a big surprise.

    There was no more traffic coming in at the time so I turned him off so I could check with him about his source / copy etc...

    Before I could write back to him, I got a PM from him.

    It was rude in tone - telling me to turn him back on ASAP.

    I wrote back and told him to please tell me a bit more about his list and show me the copy he used to promote, so I could make sure the traffic was legit before I turned his approval back on.

    Seemed like the safe and professional thing to do.

    He replied calling me a theif, threatening to tell the world I was a theif, and telling me how he is going to "out me" - etc... etc... He said 200 wasn't a big sample size and insisted I turn him back on.

    I said I'd be happy to - if he'd just give me the details I requested.

    I received several replies from him like this - but no details of his list or the copy he used to promote.

    I am very uncomfortable now after getting several threatening and rude PMs from him.

    I keep hearing how carefeul we have to be with affiliates on WSO Pro - so I feel I did the right thing to stop his promotion and double check first.

    I've been here a long time - I don't want to upset anybody, but I want to be safe with my promos as well.

    Your thoughts?

    - James
    That's not YOU being the thief but actually HIM being the thief.

    Here's why...

    The WSO game through WSO Pro is ALL ABOUT CONVERSIONS...

    I don't care if you are Frank Kern...guys won't promote unless the EPCs are high, refunds low, great reviews, etc.

    I'm not sure what your overall hops were for your conversion rate but sending 200 visitors w/o a conversion would most definitely impact overall conversion especially on a new launch.

    Those 200 hops could kill a launch before it gets even going...

    This happened to me on a recent launch where 2 affiliates sent about 1k visitors to my offer before I could shut them off (I was away for the 2nd day after launch).

    This really irritated me b/c I was helping my good friend get started in business (he did the work...I managed the launch...we shared the profits).

    So basically we had about 2,000 total views in the beginning with about 450 units sold (not bad but not great)...then we got 1,000 new hops and they combined sold 40 units (HOLY **** AWFUL).

    So let's see here...

    ~3,000 visitors and ~500 units sold= 16.7% conversion. In WSO land, that shows affiliates the launch is cooling down and won't want to promote because they feel like most people have already bought.

    This means my launch is DEAD IN THE WATER.

    Hate to be so negative but you gotta manage your affiliates and I applaud you for doing so. I'm sorry if this appears like I just want to talk about myself but this caused a lot of harm to my launch and let my friend down (who's a lot more hard off for money than I have ever been...even when I was new).

    So...You Rock James For Standing Up To a Punk...

    Cheers,

    Brad
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  • Profile picture of the author plongmire
    I am not sure but I think if you use a blog to promote affiliates and then promote those pages like I do with backlinking to backlinking, then affiliates should make those links no-follow.

    I have a pretty extensive blog network that I use and it sends a lot of traffic to the sites and a lot of spiders along with it. So I THINK, if you dont set that thing to no follow, then you might be sending hits that really are not hits...

    Not sure this made since, but after my first run through with a product I had over 200 hits as soon as I sent it through my social network, I knew something was wrong, since adding the no follow to the links, no problems.

    Just saying...
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  • Profile picture of the author humbledmarket
    Banned
    Originally Posted by James B. Allen View Post

    I need some feedback from the group here.

    I've got a WSO going - using Mike Lantz's WSO Pro.

    I've been pretty careful about the affiliates I approve - which has worked out well. Almost everyone who's sent even a handful of traffic has converted.

    This morning - checking my stats, I noticed one affiliate had sent over 180 clicks with no conversions. Compared to all the other numbers, this was a big surprise.

    There was no more traffic coming in at the time so I turned him off so I could check with him about his source / copy etc...

    Before I could write back to him, I got a PM from him.

    It was rude in tone - telling me to turn him back on ASAP.

    I wrote back and told him to please tell me a bit more about his list and show me the copy he used to promote, so I could make sure the traffic was legit before I turned his approval back on.

    Seemed like the safe and professional thing to do.

    He replied calling me a theif, threatening to tell the world I was a theif, and telling me how he is going to "out me" - etc... etc... He said 200 wasn't a big sample size and insisted I turn him back on.

    I said I'd be happy to - if he'd just give me the details I requested.

    I received several replies from him like this - but no details of his list or the copy he used to promote.

    I am very uncomfortable now after getting several threatening and rude PMs from him.

    I keep hearing how carefeul we have to be with affiliates on WSO Pro - so I feel I did the right thing to stop his promotion and double check first.

    I've been here a long time - I don't want to upset anybody, but I want to be safe with my promos as well.

    Your thoughts?

    - James
    Well as others said it is your WSO so you should have the right to regulate Affiliates. I'm sure it's part of their TOS but don't quote me on that

    On the other hand he might be irrated that his traffic being sent is going to waste but it is a bit iffy considering there are no conversions.

    200 is already quite a good enough sample size. It could simply be he's using junk traffic such as those traffic redirect or PPC services and hoping to convert. Since your WSO is good enough it could convert maybe every .01%

    In this situation since there weren't any direct ramifications you might have want to contacted him and give him a 12-24 hour notification to request for a response so not to have him waste his traffic but you did say no traffic was following through at the time and it is better to be safe overall.

    Don't brood too much on this situation; I think it's best you just move on with your time. Explain to him your situation and your call on whether to reopen or not. youc an perhaps only reopen on certain conditions such as traffic source and conversion of 1% etc. but it's your affiliate program; you should have control over it as long as you aren't ripping or scamming people their affiliate commission...which it doesn't seem you are.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Here's how I see it...

    You saw bad traffic... panicked (understandably)... and cut him off.

    So long as you PM'd him (or emailed or whatever) straight away, no issue here.

    Most companies suspend accounts immediately when red flags are raised... and most of the time they're right to do so.

    I can understand the guy being upset... for the first email. Then it just spirals out of control.

    James, the main thing you did wrong (IMHO) is you didn't have enough balls to stick to your gun and trust your instincts.

    I don't mean that in a nasty way... you seem like a really nice dude; maybe a little too much so.

    You had every right to do what you did. IMHO, anyone who says otherwise hasn't thought through the issues you would have possibly been dealing with had you not acted so quickly.

    And the airing of the PMs was because you felt guilty (for no good reason, I may add) and wanted to run it by the gauntlet (which was the entire purpose of the thread).

    It's the Kiwi influence. You're being nice and sensible, and imaging others would be too.

    Come to Australia for Fast Web Formula 3. We'll straighten that out of you

    -Daniel
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      I can understand the guy being upset... for the first email. Then it just spirals out of control.
      I can't - there's something seriously wrong emotionally with someone who reacts so far out of proportion to an issue like this.

      Unfortunately, it happens far too often online (offline too).

      I think a big problem with IM is that many people take things far too personally rather than simply look at it professionally and unemotionally. I really don't understand the, "I'm gonna get back at you" attitude I see in a lot of situations like this.

      It's almost strange, at least for me - over the years I've had a lot of encounters with two types of customers.

      The first type (and thankfully the majority) will shoot me an email and let me know they ran into a problem and need help when I can get to it. Polite, friendly and basically not out to start a conflict needlessly.

      The second type will start out firing both barrels, i.e.; swearing, threatening, telling me about all the ways they're going to ruin my life over some inconsequential issue that just doesn't make sense.

      You can't help but feel for these poor folks, who probably lead very unhappy lives and don't know how to turn themselves around and enjoy life.
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      • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        I think a big problem with IM is that many people take things far too personally rather than simply look at it professionally and unemotionally.
        I think this cuts to the heart of the matter Mike-great reminder to us all, as I think most or all of us tend to take things personally sometimes when we would be calmer, happier, and get a better outcome by assuming that whoever we are in conflict with (any conflict-no matter what, or who's right), has their own issues, and 99% of the feelings involved on either side-which are fueling the heated-or even abusive words-is baggage one or both parties carry into the situation, and therefore, really is not about us.

        Most or all of us have a lot of growing up to do, and one of the best exercises I've found that seems to help is to remind myself every time I get upset (and have the presence of mind to do so), that I have the choice to not take things personally-not make everything about me, and to feel good no matter what anyone else is doing to try to suck me into their drama.

        Of course people like James' affiliate are extreme, and most of us (thank goodness), wouldn't jump to that type of behavior without a lot more provocation, but even so, those extreme types can be seen as an opportunity to learn to stay calm and move on.

        I am not proud of this, but your reminder is the first time in this thread that I have remembered that abuse is about the abuser, not his target, so calling him a creep, a**hole, etc, was probably not helping James to not take things personally.

        The fact is, I was forgetting the entire lesson you reminded me of in one sentence, and fell into putting myself in James' shoes, getting mad on his behalf. I still think James was in the right, and stand by everything I said, except I regret the name-calling. The fact is the offender is a damaged person like the rest of us, but probably a bit more damaged than most, so has little control of himself. I don't excuse his behavior, but I don't have to belittle him for it either.
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  • Profile picture of the author vtotheyouknow
    ....Ladies and gentlemen of the Jury.....

    My client and the plaintiff agreed to do business via WSOPro, whose terms stipulate an "at will" relationship between vendors and affiliates.

    These are terms that they both accepted and thenceforward entered (huh, huh) into a contractual relationship.

    Now, when my client determined that the plaintiff was failing to do his job as an affiliate and when my client sensed that his reputation may be harmed as a result of the plaintiff's dubious promotional tactics, he rightfully and LAWFULLY terminated his relationship with the plaintiff.

    He acted in complete accordance with the stipulations of the contract and is therefore innocent of any wrongdoing. I move for dismissal, yaw'anah.

    *******

    Bottom line, James, is that there is no moral issue here. You both agreed, of your own free will, to conduct business through WarriorPlus and the ability of vendors to turn off their affiliates is inherent to that system.

    Now I realize that being lawful isn't the same as being right but all I have to say about that is what's done is done and it's just one of those opportunities to learn and take your business to the next level
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Mike,
    I can't - there's something seriously wrong emotionally with someone who reacts so far out of proportion to an issue like this.
    I don't think we can leap to that tall a conclusion based on a single response. Or even a single series of responses. That's not enough data.

    You may be right. A lot of the indicators are there, certainly. But I've seen more than a few people start out that way and calm down and act sensibly once they get the initial surprise and ego-bump out of their systems.


    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Ian del Carmen
    Just so he knows. When you turned off his account, you didn't steal traffic from him. His affiliate link will hop to a page from W+ and it's not going to your WSO page so no sales will ever be generated.*

    Name calling and threats are not cool. I also blocked some Warriors in my email, Skype, etc. for being rude. Those things are not needed.*

    Happy New Year everyone! Bring nice people with you to 2012 and leave those trash-talkers and bashers behind...

    Ian del Carmen
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  • Profile picture of the author Rsberg
    I would have difficulty with any affiliate talking to me that way, converting traffic or not.

    If he would talk to the product creator that way then how do you know what he is saying to perspecitve customers...

    Ban him and move on, simple as that!
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  • Profile picture of the author chrislangley
    I don't think you did anything wrong, if his traffic is genuine he should have no qualms sending you the ad copy
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  • Profile picture of the author AndyBlackSEO
    Hi James,

    Sorry to hear the issues you are facing. My initial thoughts after reading your first post was maybe it would have been best to contact him first and ask for these details before turning him off as an affiliate. Ie - Give him time to respond and provide this information.

    ....However, you have shown professionalism and he clearly has not. He has been rude, insulting and threatening. That alone is enough to break ties with him as an affiliate. Add to that the fact he STILL hasn't provided the information you have asked for then I wouldn't worry about him.

    Don't let people like him get under your skin. He's letting off steam in an unreasonable fashion and will soon get bored and move on.

    I'd just send him one last message telling him that will be your last contact from you and that you have given him every chance to resolve this professionally.

    Move forward with your business and keep in mind all those affiliates that do like working with you.

    Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    This is an older thread that got bumped - I think the issue has long-since been resolved.
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  • Profile picture of the author Soren
    I didn't have to read more than: "[..]Don't **** with me. The conversation proves that you're an idiot stealing traffic[..]"

    No matter what the reason might be causing this behavior, I'd never waste even a second of my time, trying to talk some sense into a fool like that. Neither would I want him to promote my stuff.

    Yes, you did perhaps make the first mistake of allowing him to be your affiliate, you definitely shouldn't have deactivated him that fast, without at least talking to him first. I would be irritated as well..

    But as I see it, he confirmed your suspicion, by over reacting like he did. You do not want those kind of affiliates!
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