Here's why PayPal scares the $^&% out of me

64 replies
This one hits close to home and it scares the crap out of me...

Popular Online Payment Merchant Forces U.S Entrepreneur to Lay off Staff, While Still Waiting for Answers

This **** is so unfair! I guess I know what Anthony will be talking about at the Warrior Event next month. What your background plan if you wake up tomorrow and this was you?
#$and% #paypal #scares
  • Profile picture of the author Centurian
    I just posted this on another thread.

    The hair trigger on account seizures is PayPal must guarantee refunds.

    VISA and MasterCard rules require this, but not how PayPal runs their business.

    The internet is full of complaints with PayPal. Two top-tier affiliates on this forum had over $20,000 each frozen. Even though there were never any previous problems, complaints, or refund requests, it took two months to get one of the accounts back.

    Even Sheriff Richard Mac had $46,000 frozen. Another offline business had $30,000 seized for over six months. Another guy I know had $1,600 frozen even though the buyer verified there was no problem with the furniture he bought through a Craigslist ad. It goes on. I've helped a few fellow warriors fix this.

    Yes, there are plenty of people online who have no problems. There are some very reputable warriors who are advising you how to maintain good relations with PayPal. You do have to manage your relationship.

    PayPal promotes it's Buyer Guarantee for online security. But they build their reputation and their business on your back. That's the weak link for you. The primary problem is because of a flaw in their business model. It's not their problem, it's your problem.

    The flaw: They "keep" your money for you and you have to have permission to get it.

    Your money belongs in your bank, not theirs. This protects them, not you. According to their terms of service, they can freeze your account and hold your money for up to half a year.

    The key is never bank your business on PayPal. At least have a back-up plan. Get online and start looking for a reputable bankcard account that is underwritten upfront especially for your business model. Don't wait to find out until it's too late they don't like you or what you do.

    PayPal is not a bank and does not have to abide by federal banking laws that give you normal rights to access your money.

    I've been in the financial sector since 1988 and been watching this crap on the forum for too long.

    I have reputable banks lined up with ecommerce accounts to fix this for anyone who wants to fund directly to their own local bank account. Plus you can cut 20% to 50% off PayPal or 2CO fees.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Centurian View Post

      The internet is full of complaints with PayPal.
      LEST WE FORGET.

      Ten years ago, if you wanted to accept credit cards over the internet, you needed a full-blown merchant account. This meant an extensive process of credit review and approval. The average person couldn't do this. If you were just some guy sitting at home with an idea for an internet business, well, tough.

      Enter PayPal. Now any yahoo with five minutes to fill out a form can get a PayPal account and take credit cards over the internet.

      I suggest we have made an advance.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Ord Allenbea
    Never put your business in the hands of a payment processor such as paypal. They could literally destroy your business by the push of a button. Paypal has robbed a lot of accounts over the years.
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  • Profile picture of the author gotti3636
    Although I have never had my PayPal account frozen, I recently spent that bit of extra money to set up a proper internet merchant account with a bank.

    PayPal is more convenient but at least I know that if my account ever does get frozen, I will always have something to fall back on
    Signature
    Always looking to invest in or partner with people on business ideas. PM me!
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    The article says the funds are frozen while they wait for answers from the guy.

    So whats the problem? What is so hard about answering some questions? I mean hmm, its not like they are only processing your payments or anything.. na, you dont need a good relationship with them! ha..

    Instead of crying and whining about it, he needs to pick up the damn phone & see what happened, what he can do to fix it, and what he can do to prevent it in the future.

    Follow this one simple step and you shouldnt have any problems.
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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      The article says the funds are frozen while they wait for answers from the guy.

      So whats the problem? What is so hard about answering some questions? I mean hmm, its not like they are only processing your payments or anything.. na, you dont need a good relationship with them! ha..

      Instead of crying and whining about it, he needs to pick up the damn phone & see what happened, what he can do to fix it, and what he can do to prevent it in the future.

      Follow this one simple step and you shouldnt have any problems.
      Go ahead and try calling paypal please, after you get through 20 mins of robots see how they treat you if your accounts been frozen. For a while they didn't even provide a telephone number until the government forced them. The company is just garbage, and a real competitor needs to rise from the ranks and take the lead.
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      • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

        Go ahead and try calling paypal please, after you get through 20 mins of robots see how they treat you if your accounts been frozen. For a while they didn't even provide a telephone number until the government forced them. The company is just garbage, and a real competitor needs to rise from the ranks and take the lead.
        Paypal is reallllly easy to contact. I've called them many times. Here's the number: 888-221-1161. They're really friendly and have always taken care of my issues on the spot.
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    • Profile picture of the author THK
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      ...

      So whats the problem? What is so hard about answering some questions? I mean hmm, its not like they are only processing your payments or anything.. na, you dont need a good relationship with them! ha..

      Instead of crying and whining about it, he needs to pick up the damn phone & see what happened, what he can do to fix it, and what he can do to prevent it in the future.

      Follow this one simple step and you shouldnt have any problems.
      Really! You think so?

      I read this in the article-

      "I literally had an email saying my account was now locked. I called them to find out why and they told me to refer to the email they sent me. No reason was contained within it, and even to this day I am unsure as to why they took the action they did," says Anthony.

      Anthony's frustrations were furthered by the fact that PayPal had no formal line of communication for him to use to resolve the account's limitation:
      Somehow I get a feeling that he tried to solve it over the phone without any luck. Tell me something I am missing here.

      Tanvir
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    • Profile picture of the author yasser
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      The article says the funds are frozen while they wait for answers from the guy.

      So whats the problem? What is so hard about answering some questions? I mean hmm, its not like they are only processing your payments or anything.. na, you dont need a good relationship with them! ha..

      Instead of crying and whining about it, he needs to pick up the damn phone & see what happened, what he can do to fix it, and what he can do to prevent it in the future.

      Follow this one simple step and you shouldnt have any problems.
      absolutely right.
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  • Profile picture of the author cashtree
    Paypal are unregulated unlike banks in the US, in other countries they don't get away with this non-sense. The only way to stop them is a class action lawsuit, google paypal sucks and you'll see tons of businesses who've been screwed by paypal. I don't care what their TOS says, they shouldn't be able to do what they want, not when they're shutting down so many companies and stealing entrepreneurs funds.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

      Paypal are unregulated unlike banks in the US
      Hogwash. Paypal and other entities like them absolutely are regulated. They aren't regulated as banks are because...cough cough....they aren't a bank. McDonald's isn't regulated as a bank either, for the same reason.
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      • Profile picture of the author cashtree
        Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

        Hogwash. Paypal and other entities like them absolutely are regulated. They aren't regulated as banks are because...cough cough....they aren't a bank. McDonald's isn't regulated as a bank either, for the same reason.
        Mcdonalds also doesn't send, receive and store money either...paypal and banks do. Paypal needs stronger regulations, there's ifs, ands or buts about it. When you as much power as they do over businesses it needs to be closely monitored and regulated because our economy is hurting too bad to continue to let them ruin small businesses for little to no reason.
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      • Profile picture of the author THK
        Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

        Hogwash. Paypal and other entities like them absolutely are regulated. They aren't regulated as banks are because...cough cough....they aren't a bank. McDonald's isn't regulated as a bank either, for the same reason.
        Ya...I never heard anyone complaining that they had to wait 180 days to get their burger after paying for it at McDonalds.

        How does Paypal's burger taste? Never tried it myself.

        Tanvir
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  • Profile picture of the author Halcyon
    This is but one more confirmation that the saying regarding eggs and baskets is true.

    Paypal is very good at being very convenient in the beginning and luring you into a false sense of security but like so many disasters, everything was great right up until it wasn't.

    Even with a backup plan, nothing can help you after they've taken your money. Sure you can switch your processes to 2CO or a merchant account but that does nothing for the money they're holding.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    Been there, done that.

    Try selling on ebay.

    And I got through to a rep every time I called, always within minutes. And any issues were resolved.

    Next.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      Been there, done that.

      Try selling on ebay.

      And I got through to a rep every time I called, always within minutes. And any issues were resolved.

      Next.
      Rob, I had my entire business shut down when paypal terminated me. Before that, they locked up 2000 bucks and held it indefinitely.

      They refused to talk to me about it until I contacted the State's financial institution (the same one that gives paypals license as a money transmitter).

      Funny enough, after going straight after their license, I immediately got my account back, plus a 300 dollar payment and a huge apology. This happened twice.

      They don't mess with me now because they know I can be a pain in their butt.

      However, it took a lot of digging to find out how to hit them were it hurts. Before they just gave me the run around.

      I don't trust paypal - but it's good knowledge knowing you CAN win. And Anthony can too.

      Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author cashtree
        Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

        Rob, I had my entire business shut down when paypal terminated me. Before that, they locked up 2000 bucks and held it indefinitely.

        They refused to talk to me about it until I contacted the State's financial institution (the same one that gives paypals license as a money transmitter).

        Funny enough, after going straight after their license, I immediately got my account back, plus a 300 dollar payment and a huge apology. This happened twice.

        They don't mess with me now because they know I can be a pain in their butt.

        However, it took a lot of digging to find out how to hit them were it hurts. Before they just gave me the run around.

        I don't trust paypal - but it's good knowledge knowing you CAN win. And Anthony can too.

        Rob
        How did that conversation go? with the State's financial institution? "paypal took my money, can you help?" or what?
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        • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
          Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

          How did that conversation go? with the State's financial institution? "paypal took my money, can you help?" or what?
          I pointed out to the state through an official complaint form that they were in violation of their money transmitter license (pointed out the exact way they were in violation).

          A few weeks later I was on the phone with a state attorney who said paypal wants to make it right by giving us our money AND our closed account.

          The attorney said that paypal had little choice. It was either get us to close the complaint or the state had to open an official investigation, which they can't fight as easily as a lawsuit.

          Rob
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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      Been there, done that.

      Try selling on ebay.

      And I got through to a rep every time I called, always within minutes. And any issues were resolved.

      Next.
      Haha you just next'd me. Well I guess you're just the man then.go on with your bad self In all seriousness though i'm glad you haven't had any issues with paypal, but many have, and it's not always because they did anything wrong, in fact most of the time i'd wager, it's probably wasn't even their fault. Paypal just has too much power, and anything you don't have checks and balances, that's not a good thing. US forefathers knew that, that's why they wrote it in the constitution.
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

        Rob, I had my entire business shut down when paypal terminated me. Before that, they locked up 2000 bucks and held it indefinitely.

        They refused to talk to me about it until I contacted the State's financial institution (the same one that gives paypals license as a money transmitter).

        Funny enough, after going straight after their license, I immediately got my account back, plus a 300 dollar payment and a huge apology. This happened twice.

        They don't mess with me now because they know I can be a pain in their butt.

        However, it took a lot of digging to find out how to hit them were it hurts. Before they just gave me the run around.

        I don't trust paypal - but it's good knowledge knowing you CAN win. And Anthony can too.

        Rob
        Really? You do realize how far fetched that sounds right? Paypal doesn't mess with you because everyone was given a direct order from the CEO and even programmed their risk flagging algorithm to make an exception just for you? I highly doubt that.

        If they held the money indefinitely, like you said, it wouldn't be cleared after 2 months. They, by law, can hold it for up to 6 months if they find that you are extremely high risk. I assume your ratio was bad. If not then maybe there were too many logins from different IPs that tripped it.

        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

        Haha you just next'd me. Well I guess you're just the man then.go on with your bad self In all seriousness though i'm glad you haven't had any issues with paypal, but many have, and it's not always because they did anything wrong, in fact most of the time i'd wager, it's probably wasn't even their fault. Paypal just has too much power, and anything you don't have checks and balances, that's not a good thing. US forefathers knew that, that's why they wrote it in the constitution.
        Actually... there are no holds on an account if there isn't a reason. There is always a reason, and whether people are honest about it, who knows? The thing is, paypal has an algorithm, just like google. If you have too many chargebacks, if you have too large of an increase in sales, those things can flag the system and the risk management department of paypal flags you. They are allowed to do that by law.

        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

        Go ahead and try calling paypal please, after you get through 20 mins of robots see how they treat you if your accounts been frozen. For a while they didn't even provide a telephone number until the government forced them. The company is just garbage, and a real competitor needs to rise from the ranks and take the lead.
        My calls get answered within 2 minutes.

        Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

        The article says the funds are frozen while they wait for answers from the guy.

        So whats the problem? What is so hard about answering some questions? I mean hmm, its not like they are only processing your payments or anything.. na, you dont need a good relationship with them! ha..

        Instead of crying and whining about it, he needs to pick up the damn phone & see what happened, what he can do to fix it, and what he can do to prevent it in the future.

        Follow this one simple step and you shouldnt have any problems.
        LOL!!! You know what, the article is such BS anyway. It says that paypal charged him a fee in order to open the account. Highly unlikely. This is clearly self promotional and just trying to make a point.

        Persistence and good REAL LIFE business sense is a great thing to have. If someone has US employees, and they are actual employees and not a 1099 then why on earth would anyone use paypal as their bank?

        This is just more and more dirt being thrown because people hold grudges over something so stupid.

        Reasons your account may be frozen:
        1.) Your disputes go unattended and ignored
        2.) Your chargebacks are uncontested
        3.) Too many refunds
        4.) successful transaction to refund/chargeback/dispute ratio is too low.
        5.) Suspicious account acticity, fraud, compromised accounts.

        NOW!! This article didn't even say it was frozen, just limited. Paypal has many different security measures and flags in the risk management department. If you spend about 10 minutes and call one of their dispute specialists and ask questions they will tell you exactly what to avoid, the difference between 6 month holds and closed accounts, limitations, license limitation, and basic limitation.

        If you sign up for a business account with paypal, you need to be careful of your initial payment estimations. If you release a big product, and you're expecting thousands of transactions and tripling your average sales, then yes, you will experience an account limitation. The same is true with REAL merchant accounts.

        You guys that bash paypal and talk about 2checkout or other processors, do you realize that paypal has the lowest percentage rate of closed, held, or limited accounts in the online industry?
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        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
          Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

          I dont care what that site says.

          I've never had any problems contacting paypal and getting them to explain EVERY SINGLE DETAIL of ANY problems, AS LONG AS you can verify that you are the account owner.

          Furthermore, under PayPal license in California, they are a payment processor. They are not authorized to "freeze" your funds for any period longer than (around) 10 days, if I recall correctly.

          So again.. whats the problem?

          EDIT: @ Rob, your last post completely reiterated what I was saying here. I would thank you in that post, but it seems I've (for the first time) been maxed out. lol the button disappeared.

          But yeah.. you have to work with them, but be proactive. Always know what steps you need to take if any problems should ever come up.

          Its important to REALLY know your options. Boyscout 101.. always be prepared. lol
          What they are able to do, is do a 10-18 day hold waiting for verification. Maybe a license, invoices, business license, something to show you're legit. The long holds, which are up to 180 days, are when paypal decides they don't want to do business with you. People are able to issue a chargeback for up to 6 months with paypal and that is just something dealing with the merchant account that paypal has. Basically... paypal doesn't close an account unless the risk is sky high or people are bad sellers.

          Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

          I did that too before they locked up my account. Had 40k bucks go through it. I called them a week in advance and then again the day before. Account rep said we were good to go.

          A week after the launch - locked up.

          I got a hold of the rep alright. But he told me there was "nothing I can do about it" and that it was for paypal's protection.

          So, I started investigating, got ahold of someone who had it happen to him and next thing you know, I was getting an apology from paypal and my money back.

          Rob
          Well, paypal doesn't allow more than a $10,000 transaction, so you didn't have 40K go through at once.

          If you spoke with a rep about an influx of sales, then the rep wasn't who you needed to speak with. Any issue or expectation of high volume sales above the average sales volume you have been doing will qualify a hold. The only way around it is by speaking with someone in the risk management department, preferably a supervisor. A basic support rep doesn't have access to any of that.

          Call the risk management department, get their direct line, and you will be perfectly fine. I don't think that you getting a hold of someone who had the same problem is why you got money back quickly.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          Really? You do realize how far fetched that sounds right? Paypal doesn't mess with you because everyone was given a direct order from the CEO and even programmed their risk flagging algorithm to make an exception just for you? I highly doubt that.

          If they held the money indefinitely, like you said, it wouldn't be cleared after 2 months. They, by law, can hold it for up to 6 months if they find that you are extremely high risk. I assume your ratio was bad. If not then maybe there were too many logins from different IPs that tripped it.
          Hahahaha, right.

          1. PayPal's Escrow License


          https://www.paypal-media.com/assets/...012_Expiry.pdf


          2. Violation of their Escrow License by holding funds:

          http://banking.mt.gov/content/Escrow/Escrow_Statute

          Violating terms of their license - section 32-7-117. Deposit of funds required -- disbursement #5 - 5 business days for funds to be made available to withdraw.

          Violating terms of their license - section 32-7-121.

          Multiple points.


          3. One Email - proof from Lawyer:



          Sorry. I know what I'm talking about. Having fought and won twice.

          After we filed the complaint, we got our money back, 300 bucks in extra payment, and our account back.

          No, paypal is NOT allowed to just arbitrarily hold funds. By law they can't. A class action lawsuit, which they lost, they signed an agreement saying that they would only hold funds in cases of criminal investigation or suspicion of terrorists ties or activities. Brian Kindsvater dug that little gem up.

          Rob
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          • Profile picture of the author cashtree
            Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

            Hahahaha, right.

            1. PayPal's Escrow License


            https://www.paypal-media.com/assets/...012_Expiry.pdf


            2. Violation of their Escrow License by holding funds:

            http://banking.mt.gov/content/Escrow/Escrow_Statute

            Violating terms of their license - section 32-7-117. Deposit of funds required -- disbursement #5 - 5 business days for funds to be made available to withdraw.

            Violating terms of their license - section 32-7-121.

            Multiple points.


            3. One Email - proof from Lawyer:



            Sorry. I know what I'm talking about. Having fought and won twice.

            After we filed the complaint, we got our money back, 300 bucks in extra payment, and our account back.

            No, paypal is NOT allowed to just arbitrarily hold funds. By law they can't. A class action lawsuit, which they lost, they signed an agreement saying that they would only hold funds in cases of criminal investigation or suspicion of terrorists ties or activities. Brian Kindsvater dug that little gem up.

            Rob
            One of the most useful posts to date on here, thank you sir.
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          • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
            Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post


            A few weeks later I was on the phone with a state attorney who said paypal wants to make it right by giving us our money AND our closed account.
            Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

            Hahahaha, right.

            1. PayPal's Escrow License


            https://www.paypal-media.com/assets/...012_Expiry.pdf


            2. Violation of their Escrow License by holding funds:

            http://banking.mt.gov/content/Escrow/Escrow_Statute

            Violating terms of their license - section 32-7-117. Deposit of funds required -- disbursement #5 - 5 business days for funds to be made available to withdraw.

            Violating terms of their license - section 32-7-121.

            Multiple points.


            3. One Email - proof from Lawyer:



            Sorry. I know what I'm talking about. Having fought and won twice.

            Rob
            Well just in this one thread I know you are either lying, or just exaggerating. The email you showed, said you filed a complaint in august.. but that email is from december 1st. So was it a few weeks, or a few months? Accidental typo maybe?

            The whole rant about it being an escrow service... really? You DO realize that the only part of paypal being an escrow is with ebay, right? The rest, its similar to an escrow but it definitely is not. Paypal transactions with ebay = escrow... payments made through websites for products, services, etc. = not escrow.

            If they gave your money back, cool. More power to you.. but don't act like they're scared of you LOL, that is ridiculous to say.
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            • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
              No, I'm not.

              This is the SECOND battle I had with paypal. The first was a year prior to that, and was settled within 2 weeks of me filing a complaint to the same department, except in Illinois.

              This battle involved paypal shutting me down. Period. They closed my account, took 1200 bucks out of my bank account, and canceled 10,000 bucks in recurring payments.

              They then were going to hold all that money for 180 days.


              Next, paypal IS a money transmitter and escrow service. Check this page out:

              https://www.paypal-media.com/licenses

              This is HOW they are licensed. In order to MOVE MONEY from one person to another, they MUST be licensed in the State as either as either:

              Money Transmitter
              Escrow service.

              But, whatever man. All I know is this - I threatened their license, twice. And twice I won.

              Rob

              Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

              Well just in this one thread I know you are either lying, or just exaggerating. The email you showed, said you filed a complaint in august.. but that email is from december 1st. So was it a few weeks, or a few months? Accidental typo maybe?

              The whole rant about it being an escrow service... really? You DO realize that the only part of paypal being an escrow is with ebay, right? The rest, its similar to an escrow but it definitely is not. Paypal transactions with ebay = escrow... payments made through websites for products, services, etc. = not escrow.

              If they gave your money back, cool. More power to you.. but don't act like they're scared of you LOL, that is ridiculous to say.
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          • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
            Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post


            No, paypal is NOT allowed to just arbitrarily hold funds. By law they can't. A class action lawsuit, which they lost, they signed an agreement saying that they would only hold funds in cases of criminal investigation or suspicion of terrorists ties or activities. Brian Kindsvater dug that little gem up.

            Rob
            https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...locale.x=en_US


            Maybe you should read the user agreement you agreed to. By law they CAN hold funds.. I don't even know why you're debating this fact.

            Call their legal department and they might be able to address any questions you may have.
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          • Profile picture of the author sidenote
            Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

            Hahahaha, right.

            1. PayPal's Escrow License


            https://www.paypal-media.com/assets/...012_Expiry.pdf


            2. Violation of their Escrow License by holding funds:

            http://banking.mt.gov/content/Escrow/Escrow_Statute

            Violating terms of their license - section 32-7-117. Deposit of funds required -- disbursement #5 - 5 business days for funds to be made available to withdraw.

            Violating terms of their license - section 32-7-121.

            Multiple points.


            3. One Email - proof from Lawyer:



            Sorry. I know what I'm talking about. Having fought and won twice.

            After we filed the complaint, we got our money back, 300 bucks in extra payment, and our account back.

            No, paypal is NOT allowed to just arbitrarily hold funds. By law they can't. A class action lawsuit, which they lost, they signed an agreement saying that they would only hold funds in cases of criminal investigation or suspicion of terrorists ties or activities. Brian Kindsvater dug that little gem up.

            Rob
            I was reading through this thread but since there didn't seem to be anything new about Paypal's abuse of power I did not find a reason to comment... That is until I saw your post, which I find very interesting.

            Unfortunately, Paypal prides itself in "not being a bank" and therefore not being regulated by "banking authorities." However, many lawsuits/class-actions have been successfully won in favor of plaintiffs who have had funds frozen, accounts closed, etc, by using escrow transaction laws.

            Just think, if US laws are able to usurp foreign entities for financial transactions conducted here in the States, and US officials are able to regulate financial transactions in foreign nationals, why not Paypal as well. This is a US entity, is headquartered in the US, d/b/a in the US (and worldwide), but they do have to abide by US transaction laws.

            I am glad that you shared this information on the WF, because so many online business owners are afraid there is no recourse if the same thing happens to them. Knowing what laws govern Paypal transactions can be very useful when waging a counter attack. Sure they are not governed by "banking laws" per se, but they do have laws, that control how they do business here in the US. Having said that, they can be defeated.

            What an excellent contribution to this thread. Thank you for sharing this info!!
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        • Profile picture of the author Ord Allenbea
          Could you please show where you get this "fact" from ?

          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post


          Actually... there are no holds on an account if there isn't a reason. There is always a reason, and whether people are honest about it, who knows?
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          • Profile picture of the author SawyerD
            Originally Posted by Ord Allenbea View Post

            Could you please show where you get this "fact" from ?
            Have you tried looking into other payment options online? Maybe there are others that are more regulated and not quite as pricey as Paypal?
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    Even better, sign in to paypal then use this link:

    https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/helps...&t=escalateTab

    Go down to "call us" and they will even give you a web-pin to use when you call, that way they already know who you are.

    I really dont see what is so hard here.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Paypal are unregulated unlike banks in the US,
      Not quite true. Paypal is not regulated as a bank - but there are plenty of regulations the company must adhere to.

      Anyone else notice the link to the "warrior forum" in that article....that doesn't go to the Warrior Forum?

      An article on PRWeb - it's a press release written in the third person?

      he compensated PayPal for this by paying some advanced fees to cover the risk
      Never heard of that one - could it be the reserve paypal requires many sellers to maintain?
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    I didnt 'next' you. I 'nexted' your question, meaning whats your next one?

    @Rob, yeah man Ive read all about the stories. However I've also read all about the solutions. So if anything ever SHOULD happen, I know what steps to take to rectify the problem.

    Therefore, I'm being 100% proactive. I dont see a reason to worry.

    I call and alert these people to any potential problems before THEY even see them coming.. lol as you know from our PM's earlier I dont stand for any shady sh*t. But I demand that same courtesy. No matter who I'm dealing with.

    I'm sure you're the same way. If I have reason to believe something is up, I'm calling. And yes, I always get thru to a rep.

    Although I am sorry to hear about your experience with them.. Trust me I wouldnt wish that upon anybody. Messing with an honest man's business is enough to drive them to dishonest tactics.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      Therefore, I'm being 100% proactive. I dont see a reason to worry.
      I did that too before they locked up my account. Had 40k bucks go through it. I called them a week in advance and then again the day before. Account rep said we were good to go.

      A week after the launch - locked up.

      I got a hold of the rep alright. But he told me there was "nothing I can do about it" and that it was for paypal's protection.

      So, I started investigating, got ahold of someone who had it happen to him and next thing you know, I was getting an apology from paypal and my money back.

      Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
        Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

        I did that too before they locked up my account. Had 40k bucks go through it. I called them a week in advance and then again the day before. Account rep said we were good to go.

        A week after the launch - locked up.

        I got a hold of the rep alright. But he told me there was "nothing I can do about it" and that it was for paypal's protection.

        So, I started investigating, got ahold of someone who had it happen to him and next thing you know, I was getting an apology from paypal and my money back.

        Rob
        I remember when they froze your account...I was wondering what happened...glad to hear you got your money back.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    Uhhh.. you trying to tell me this self published press release holds any water?
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    • Profile picture of the author haroldabolyo
      You can't rely on online payments(paypal) or store your money online since situations like that could freak you out. It's one of those mind bugging experience and this thing can really scare someone out.
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    • Profile picture of the author onSubie
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      Uhhh.. you trying to tell me this self published press release holds any water?

      I think it's a good example of using a press release and forums to get traffic.

      The press release reads well. It describes a common and alarming problem IMers have with PayPal. It promotes his company and wsojunkie web site and he has an active thread in the top IM forum discussing his press release and business.

      He is both providing value, a great topic for discussion and promoting his IM business at the same time.

      Is this wrong?

      Mahlon
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    I dont care what that site says.

    I've never had any problems contacting paypal and getting them to explain EVERY SINGLE DETAIL of ANY problems, AS LONG AS you can verify that you are the account owner.

    Furthermore, under PayPal license in California, they are a payment processor. They are not authorized to "freeze" your funds for any period longer than (around) 10 days, if I recall correctly.

    So again.. whats the problem?

    EDIT: @ Rob, your last post completely reiterated what I was saying here. I would thank you in that post, but it seems I've (for the first time) been maxed out. lol the button disappeared.

    But yeah.. you have to work with them, but be proactive. Always know what steps you need to take if any problems should ever come up.

    Its important to REALLY know your options. Boyscout 101.. always be prepared. lol
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    • Profile picture of the author THK
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      Uhhh.. you trying to tell me this self published press release holds any water?
      lol...interesting question, and a good one at that. Since it is self published, there is a possibility that it is not telling us the whole story. Then again, if we don't trust the source the whole thread is pointless.

      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      I dont care what that site says.
      Then what is the point of posting really? That is the source, this thread and all comments are based on that. Yes, you made it very clear that YOU never had any problem with Paypal and we are all very happy about it. But this thread is not about you. Other people can have different experience than yours, that is just normal. Talking about that give us more ideas to deal with these issues. Hope you don't have a problem with that

      Tanvir
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    Definitely. lol but its 1:13 AM here and the wife is saying its time for bed, so you know how that goes.

    Til next time my friends! haha
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    No, its not about ME.

    Its about PayPal. Which I happen to be a member of, and have never had any problems with.

    Everything this 'article' says is the complete opposite of my experiences with them.

    THEREFORE, I dont care what the article says, because I dont believe it. I can safely assume that the guy brought this upon himself.

    THAT is why I posted.

    Run along now. I really should get in bed. lol

    hell, even Rob (the other Rob) posted and let us know that he was able to resolve his problems.. so whats the problem here? I still dont get it.
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    • Profile picture of the author cashtree
      Originally Posted by Whos That Guru View Post

      No, its not about ME.

      Its about PayPal. Which I happen to be a member of, and have never had any problems with.

      Everything this 'article' says is the complete opposite of my experiences with them.

      THEREFORE, I dont care what the article says, because I dont believe it. I can safely assume that the guy brought this upon himself.

      THAT is why I posted.

      Run along now. I really should get in bed. lol

      hell, even Rob (the other Rob) posted and let us know that he was able to resolve his problems.. so whats the problem here? I still dont get it.
      i'll never understand that mentality, "just because I therefore..." you do realize there are MILLIONS of paypal users right? And you see all these people around you complaining about them yeah? You ever think that there maybe something to that? sometimes we need to not be caught up in our own bubble and think bigger. So many people aren't upset "just cause", they're upset because paypal screwed them in some way, and just because you've been fortunate enough not to have that happen to you, just means you've been fortunate...and that's great, but so is everyone else...until they're not.
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        Originally Posted by cashtree View Post

        i'll never understand that mentality, "just because I therefore..." you do realize there are MILLIONS of paypal users right? And you see all these people around you complaining about them yeah? You ever think that there maybe something to that? sometimes we need to not be caught up in our own bubble and think bigger. So many people aren't upset "just cause", they're upset because paypal screwed them in some way, and just because you've been fortunate enough not to have that happen to you, just means you've been fortunate...and that's great, but so is everyone else...until they're not.
        Interesting....person caught up in their own anti-paypal bubble criticizing others for being caught up in a bubble, lol.

        A few weeks later I was on the phone with a state attorney who said paypal wants to make it right by giving us our money AND our closed account.

        The attorney said that paypal had little choice. It was either get us to close the complaint or the state had to open an official investigation, which they can't fight as easily as a lawsuit.

        Rob
        Surely the state investigated anyway when presented with this evidence that Paypal is knowingly breaking the law, right? Or do they have no interest in protecting all the other people in that state that may also be getting ripped off by Paypal?
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        • Profile picture of the author cashtree
          Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

          Interesting....person caught up in their own anti-paypal bubble criticizing others for being caught up in a bubble, lol.



          Surely the state investigated anyway when presented with this evidence that Paypal is knowingly breaking the law, right? Or do they have no interest in protecting all the other people in that state that may also be getting ripped off by Paypal?
          Interesting, how you claim i'm caught up in a anti-paypal bubble then go on to talk about people being ripped off by paypal? Where your confusion lies is i'm anti-paypal for a reason, and unlike that other gentlemen it's not purely personal. Seeing the big picture, and how many have been negatively affected by paypal, I guess they're all caught up in their own bubble too huh? There comes a point in time when one has to realize where the real problem lies, and that's usually with paypal. I use a web hosting company that serves millions upon millions of people,but do you know what I myself say about them and what I see many many others say about them online? We say they're excellent,you know why? because they are. When large quantities are complaining and or complimenting, it's always for a reason, remember that.
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...locale.x=en_US


          Maybe you should read the user agreement you agreed to. By law they CAN hold funds.. I don't even know why you're debating this fact.

          Call their legal department and they might be able to address any questions you may have.
          In many states, they can NOT, "by law" withhold funds longer than a short period of time (10 days, in a number of states). PP is licensed in most states as a 'money transmitter', just like Western Union.

          Just because they have it in their TOS/UA doesn't mean they can skirt state law. Maybe that's why he's debating the "fact".

          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          Well just in this one thread I know you are either lying, or just exaggerating. The email you showed, said you filed a complaint in august.. but that email is from december 1st. So was it a few weeks, or a few months? Accidental typo maybe?
          [...]
          If they gave your money back, cool. More power to you.. but don't act like they're scared of you LOL, that is ridiculous to say.
          Or maybe you just think you're Sherlock? A little investigation into his past posts would have revealed that there was more than one incident.

          He didn't say PP was scared of him and you're ridiculous to suggest it. It's entirely possible that he's on some kind of internal 'leave this person alone' list if PP has such a thing. Squeaky wheels getting the grease, and all that.

          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          What they are able to do, is do a 10-18 day hold waiting for verification. Maybe a license, invoices, business license, something to show you're legit. The long holds, which are up to 180 days, are when paypal decides they don't want to do business with you. People are able to issue a chargeback for up to 6 months with paypal and that is just something dealing with the merchant account that paypal has. Basically... paypal doesn't close an account unless the risk is sky high or people are bad sellers.
          People don't "issue a chargeback" with PP. And the period for a dispute is somewhere around 45 days, maybe 60.

          The "long holds" are illegal in most states, but by the time you'd be done fighting it through the state or judicial system, you'd have gotten the money back.

          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          Well, paypal doesn't allow more than a $10,000 transaction, so you didn't have 40K go through at once.
          :confused: where did he say he did 40K in one transaction? $40K in subscription payments in a month isn't very much of a stretch.

          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          If you spoke with a rep about an influx of sales, then the rep wasn't who you needed to speak with. Any issue or expectation of high volume sales above the average sales volume you have been doing will qualify a hold. The only way around it is by speaking with someone in the risk management department, preferably a supervisor. A basic support rep doesn't have access to any of that.

          Call the risk management department, get their direct line, and you will be perfectly fine. I don't think that you getting a hold of someone who had the same problem is why you got money back quickly.
          The average person, assuming that this has the remotest basis in fact, would know to do this before their account had problems? :rolleyes:

          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          Really? You do realize how far fetched that sounds right? Paypal doesn't mess with you because everyone was given a direct order from the CEO and even programmed their risk flagging algorithm to make an exception just for you? I highly doubt that.

          If they held the money indefinitely, like you said, it wouldn't be cleared after 2 months. They, by law, can hold it for up to 6 months if they find that you are extremely high risk. I assume your ratio was bad. If not then maybe there were too many logins from different IPs that tripped it.
          There's that "by law" thing again. And wrong again.

          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          Actually... there are no holds on an account if there isn't a reason. There is always a reason, and whether people are honest about it, who knows? The thing is, paypal has an algorithm, just like google. If you have too many chargebacks, if you have too large of an increase in sales, those things can flag the system and the risk management department of paypal flags you. They are allowed to do that by law.
          And again. And also wrong again.

          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          My calls get answered within 2 minutes.
          So do mine. It just takes a half-hour for someone to pick up the phone after I get put on hold.

          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          NOW!! This article didn't even say it was frozen, just limited. Paypal has many different security measures and flags in the risk management department. If you spend about 10 minutes and call one of their dispute specialists and ask questions they will tell you exactly what to avoid, the difference between 6 month holds and closed accounts, limitations, license limitation, and basic limitation.

          If you sign up for a business account with paypal, you need to be careful of your initial payment estimations. If you release a big product, and you're expecting thousands of transactions and tripling your average sales, then yes, you will experience an account limitation. The same is true with REAL merchant accounts.

          You guys that bash paypal and talk about 2checkout or other processors, do you realize that paypal has the lowest percentage rate of closed, held, or limited accounts in the online industry?
          You don't, by some chance, work for PayPal's reputation management department, do you?

          Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

          Surely the state investigated anyway when presented with this evidence that Paypal is knowingly breaking the law, right? Or do they have no interest in protecting all the other people in that state that may also be getting ripped off by Paypal?
          They probably didn't, if they're as cash-strapped as most states are. Investigations like that cost a ton of money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    I had no idea Paypal was so violent. Sounds like something Google Checkout or Amazon Payments would do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    lol I really dont even know why I'm still checking this thread..

    I've already clarified the fact that its NOT ABOUT ME.

    Good night.
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    Originally Posted by rusty1027 View Post

    This one hits close to home and it scares the crap out of me...

    Popular Online Payment Merchant Forces U.S Entrepreneur to Lay off Staff, While Still Waiting for Answers

    This **** is so unfair! I guess I know what Anthony will be talking about at the Warrior Event next month. What your background plan if you wake up tomorrow and this was you?
    Does it scare the crap out of you when other merchant accounts do the same thing?

    Why do I get the feeling that this press release, most likely written by Anthony himself, doesn't tell the whole story? Here's a thought....get another merchant account. There are probably thousands out there, and they aren't hard to get. Problem solved, cash flow resumes, bankruptcy averted. He may have to work something out with his employees, but that's life. Stuff happens sometimes.
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  • Profile picture of the author InWait
    Wanna do something about it? Here's a petition.

    https://www.change.org/petitions/pay...lding-of-funds

    If they're innocent they can come out and defend themselves. There's also other petitions against paypal on the site, no surprise.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    1. This is nothing more than a 3rd person press release written by Anthony himself to try and get his account back. I think he would be better off spending the time contacting Paypal and escalating the issue.

    I feel for Anthony but Paypal aren't going to turn around their decision on the back of a simple PR Web press release. I'm guessing the only way this press release found it's way to the forum was via Anthony in some way or another (OP how did you find out about this? Just scouring PR Web press releases or has Anthony blasted it out to his list?). Anthony also admitted he had other circumstances going on here so it's not as clear cut as it may seem.

    From the user agreement regarding things that will get your account frozen...

    "Have a credit score from a credit reporting agency that indicates a high level of risk associated with your use of the PayPal Services;"

    Paypal is a business and will try and minimize any risk just like any other business would.

    2. I seem to notice a common theme here with people who have had their accounts frozen - recurring payments. Do we know if Anthony had any recurring payments going through his account?
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      2. I seem to notice a common theme here with people who have had their accounts frozen - recurring payments. Do we know if Anthony had any recurring payments going through his account?
      This is entirely possible. I'm going to be talking to Anthony today and I'll find out more what happened.

      Regardless, I learned my lesson the hard way - don't do recurring payments through paypal. It's extremely risky.

      Instead, have a merchant account and 3rd party processor (like Nanacast or 2SC, etc.). That way, if your merchant account shuts you down, you just switch to a new merchant account and you're back in business.

      Rob
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  • Profile picture of the author rockong
    I've been steering away from Paypal as I'm trying to avoid ever having the possibility of an account being frozen. There's an entrepreneur that created Dwolla, where all your transactions go through your bank and it only cost 25 cents per transaction. Give that guy some support - I am with my ventures!

    BTW, I'm not affiliated with Dwolla or anything, I'm just starting to use them myself. But I'm a huge advocate of rooting for entrepreneurs that are out to help, instead of big corps that simply don't care.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Rob -

      Recurring accounts might be a trigger for a review (especially of an acct listed "high risk") - but also changing the type of product and sales could be a trigger and it seems that happened recently.

      I had two accounts limited a few years ago - one took 20 minutes of being very nice on the phone to clear. The second had to run the course and limits were removed after 5-7 days.

      It's a pain and I feel for him but I'm not sure press releases are the way to go.
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  • Profile picture of the author sentinelsoft
    This is why I tell people who care to listen to stay away from paypal, it's just too risky.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayDoh
    Somebody once used a hacked account to buy some items from me on ebay. Even though it was their systems that failed they put my account into negative figures and said I owed them the amount that the goods sold for (even though I supplied all tracking/shipping info)
    They then set about harassing me for a few weeks, I found lots of info from Paypal hate sites telling me the steps they would take including:

    Sending letters from FAKE legal companies, the sites showed me the letters I would receive word for word
    Threatening with debt collectors - again, fake and the sites detailed the letters I would receive
    Numerous telephone calls
    Threats of taking me to court
    and all of this was happening while it was being disputed with an independent body.

    I was really worried at first until I heard a statistic - PayPal had NEVER taken anybody to court over something like this as they were afraid that if they lost it would set a legal president and they would no longer be able to use such bully boy tactics!

    I told PayPal to take me to court to recover their costs for their system failing - never heard from them again!!!

    This was about 3 years ago in the UK, I was lucky enough to withdraw my money before they tried to pull this on me. I advise everybody who uses Paypal never leave large amounts of cash in your account
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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    Obviously lots of people use Paypal with no problems - otherwise Paypal wouldn't still be around. But it is also true that people have suffered from how Paypal chooses to do business.

    A few people here and there saying "I've never had a problem" or "I had a problem and it was all sorted out quickly and easily" is meaningless in the great scheme of things. Especially since they change their tune as soon as they do have problems.

    I do know that, due to complaints in the past, Paypal were forced to clean up their act. They use to make their contact details very hard to find and when you did find the number all you got was a recorded message telling you the web address of their Support page (which had a brief FAQ and the phone number you just rang!)

    I have also heard from Paypal employees (or people claiming to be) that how well your individual case goes depends entirely on who ends up dealing with it. Once this person has made a decision not pursue it further then Paypal will do nothing until you take legal action. If your case ends up with a good guy then you'll probably have an easy time but if you end up with guy who can't be bothered then you're in for a lot of frustration.
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  • Profile picture of the author adammaxum
    regardless of the fact if the original press release holds any merit...

    paypal sucks. I shouldn't have to call them whenever some 'strange' activity happens on my account. I shouldn't have to worry about my funds being held for longer than a few days. Not only do I have to make the money, but than I have to be concerned about how long it will take me to receive the money? As an online seller, I shouldn't have to deal with all the BS that paypal puts a lot of their customers through.

    I was an eBay powerseller and everything was going fine until they decided to put a 21 day hold on all funds that came into the account. What was their reason? Because I cashed out frequently. Are you kidding me?

    The ONLY thing paypal has going for it is convenience, and the fact everyone uses it. That's it. I hope WePay or Dwolla or some other platform steps up to compete in the near future.
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    Banned
    If you think they suck, that's cool...you can easily go elsewhere. Lots of other payment processors out there you can do business with.

    Kind of a shame they don't have anywhere near the reach that PayPal does, but hey, it is what it is. :rolleyes:

    I can only relate that over the years, whenever I've had the occasional problem come up, my account manager has always helped me to either resolve it or understand why it's a problem and correct it.

    Their development team is absolutely incredible - I've worked with them on and off years and it's always been a very positive experience.

    I think PayPal is terrific <- that's my opinion and you won't be able to change it. You don't have to agree with it - but you're not the one who's helped me to process millions of dollars in transactions over the years either so I'm sticking with them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ewan1998
    Banned
    These cases are really rare, I haven't heard anything like this happening before with Paypal. He possibly in one way or another, was breaking some of the TOS of Paypal. Most people decide to skip the TOS, which can lead to the account being locked if they don't follow some of the rules.

    Think he got unlucky. I've heard though that the Paypal response team are usually nice, and respond to your emails quickly and assist you in every way possible. I've never had any trouble with Paypal, and this story won't stop me using them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Somebody once used a hacked account to buy some items from me on ebay. Even though it was their systems that failed they put my account into negative figures and said I owed them the amount that the goods sold for
      The transaction was fraudulent - therefore it doesn't exist and you can't earn money with it. Thus you were expected to refund that payment - and that's not "bad paypal" but due to fraud by a buyer.

      There was no real money paid. You lose money - and paypal loses fees - and the money goes back to the credit card that was fraudulently used.

      Is it fair? Nope, but fraud isn't fair.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ross Kenny
        Check out this audio phone conversation with PP -
        Absolutely Crazy!!!

        [Right Click - Save As]
        http://anthonyaires.com/PayPalcall.mp3
        Mods - Delete if this violates any t & c's

        Just want to spread the danger we face here everyday. We need Warrior+
        to add other merchants to its service so we're not totally Paypal dependent
        here on the Warrior forum when offering WSO's as Affiliates, etc, etc
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        • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
          Originally Posted by Ross Kenny View Post

          Check out this audio phone conversation with PP -
          Absolutely Crazy!!!

          [Right Click - Save As]
          http://anthonyaires.com/PayPalcall.mp3
          Mods - Delete if this violates any t & c's

          Just want to spread the danger we face here everyday. We need Warrior+
          to add other merchants to its service so we're not totally Paypal dependent
          here on the Warrior forum when offering WSO's as Affiliates, etc, etc
          Classy how he throws the Warrior Forum, Warrior Plus, and WSO publishers under the bus.

          What about all of them, they should be shut down too. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author aluminum
    I sold a product to someone, and then he filed a dispute (I have no clue why, he was some low life scammer). Paypal refunded the guy, I lost my product and then they froze my account for 6 months.
    I called paypal and yelled at them for stealing my money because they did. I rightfully earned that money which they took away and then they stole the rest of my money for 6 months.

    After about weeks and weeks, I was finally able to get my money back and my account came in use again.

    However I could have spent that time doing something productive, instead of wasting time fighting with greedy, stubborn paypal.

    Too make a long story short: Paypal is a greedy company and will scam you with no reason.
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