When Do Pre-Sales WSO Questions In The WSO Forum Cross The Line From Questions To Debate?

I don't think that people should be responding with their "opinions" on these answers period. If you have a followup question? Then go for it. If you see an answer that turns you off of the product (and its like you said: enough to make them say "I don't want to buy") then just walk away.

I hate Kix Cereal. I don't go to the cereal manufacturer though and say "I hate your cereal. I'm not buying. So nyaaaah." That would be a waste of everyone's time.

Bad analogy? OK, let me get back to the point I was originally trying to make. In the scenario you are outlining, it would seem that a lot of this debate probably comes from people who never even ended up buying the product, right? What gives them the ability to comment on a product they didn't buy?

I know I'm turning this gray situation into a black and white; but I feel that outside of literally asking a question or follow up question, non-customers have no business commenting on a WSO.

Good question, Bill. I have been away from the forum for a while due to the negativity.

Common sense should be the line in any debate, but that seems to be less common these days.

As a start I think it's a good idea for a vendor to make a list of all possible questions and or objections.. answer them and post them at the end of the sales copy.

Secondly, the vendor should avoid over hyping the product.

Thirdly, if you get that sort of reply, then I'd be inclined to post a standard remark such as: Thanks for your interest. I'm sorry the product isn't for you. Best wishes for the future. DO NOT enter into an argument. Just let it go and be the better person.

If they sabotage the thread, report them. Simple.

Now from the buyer's perspective...

Use common sense. Your attitude is a reflection of your own beliefs. Understand that if you stir up a sh1t storm, then expect the same when you sell something.

If the product isn't for you, then just let it be, ok? It's a market place no different to any other in the real world.

Do you argue with people in a department store? Why do it here?

Finally, if you have been screwed previously, stay away from WSO's. Simple. Don't keep going back.

If you want to treated with respect, then show some respect for the seller's right to ply his/ her trade. Take to the PM board if needed.

How would you feel if someone did it to you?

Sal

It's really difficult to pin it down. But I think if the seller has answered the question reasonably and is given anything like what you stated: "Well, I don't like your answer, so I am not going to buy." -- then I would report it. Once a "dabate" starts it's time to start reporting. Most times it's easy to tell if the questions and comments are legitimate or just plain argumentative.

I would think this would be valuable feedback to the seller that their potential customers don't like whatever that is. No?

Maybe the answer is to not let people ask questions at all. I mean if you go to a regular sales page outside of the warrior forum you don't have a list of questions and comments, you just get the sales letter and that is all.

Potential customers can either email the seller with questions, buy it if they like what they see or move along.

I guess if you are selling on the warrior forum, then you need to expect that kind of interaction, otherwise you could sell on a platform that does not allow it.

Okay...get ready...almost there...hold on a second...almost there...get ready...almost there...HIT IT!!!!

I think that generally any comments or opinions that aren't fact based and about the WSO in question that distract from the sales process should not be allowed.

What it comes down to is this: If a user asks a presell question like "how much traffic transfer does the hosting come with" to an offer that includes hosting but this isn't spelled out and the answer is something totally unreasonable like 2 MB every 3 months, does the asker have the "right" to respond with something like "really? how are we supposed to use the blogs you're selling then? or should they just let potential buyers make their own decisions now that more of the "facts" of the offer are clear?

I definitely think comments like "well since you're not answering John's and Mary's support tickets I can see how you are and I know I can't trust you so you've just lost another customer" should not be allowed.

Mark

Here's my thoughts...

I have seen a few Warriors lately busting into a WSO and asking questions designed to put doubt into a buyers mind. Then, when the seller has responded adequately that same Warrior asks a different question and keeps on going.

This is a form of sabotage plain and simple.

If these Warriors didn't have a hidden agenda then why would they continue if they didn't like a particular answer? Why not just leave without buying?

And, when the question is answered, all of a sudden they ask for people's pen names or something else the seller may not want to reveal, nor should they feel compelled to reveal.

I don't know about you but I cannot remember a time when someone went into Coca-Cola and asked for the Secret Recipe just so they could see if they would like it or not?

The Warriors I've seen do this type of sabotage are only responding to certain types of WSO's. Coincidentally it's the same niche they are involved in.

Food for thought!

"Ok Thank's", should be the standard answer. A positive vote for the product should be hitting the Buy Now button. Other than that, if you aren't happy, walk away and look for another offer. I think legitimate complaints about service, unanswered emails or PM's from the supplier, should be warranted with the thread, provided every other method was tried first. Not every complaint, or refund request needs to be in a public thread.

I had a guy post on one of my WSO's one time that I did not have the right to sell my product for more than $7.

He suggested I should lower my price point to $4, and he may consider buying.

I reported that post and sent the guy a pm telling them that I set my prices where I want to set them, and if he didn't like my price, he should just hit the Back button.

He never responded.

I have told people on several of my wso's that if they don't like my answers, then don't buy my products. I mean it too. I am not trying to force feed anyone.

If you like my copy, buy my stuff. If you don't like my copy, don't buy my stuff. And if you are sitting on the fence, I have a 60-day money back guarantee.

People who go in and make comments that are unwarranted, they have no intentions to buy and break the WSO Rules should be sent a PayPal bill for $40...

Related but totally different question:

If we don't let people who haven't purchased yet make NEGATIVE comments, should we let people who haven't purchased yet make POSITIVE comments?

Example: "John is a stand up guy and every time I have bought from him in the past, I've been impressed with the support he gives his customers. Just give him some time - he's probably just swamped with all the orders. He'll get back to you soon I'm sure."

Mark

I say if they are not seriously interested in purchasing, or have not already purchased, they have no business asking questions in your thread.

Secondly, if they don't like your answer they should, in most cases, take it up with you via PM.

I have two things to say on this:

1 - Some so-called "products" are absolutely awful time-wasters for everybody. They exist simply to try to grift money out of newbies who so desperately want to believe the glitzy sales copy promises. And some products are blatant bloody rip-offs of other people's work.

2 - Too many people have a JEALOUS streak and simply hate seeing others achieve what they aspire to but do not have the work ethic or talent for. Hence, they will try to rubbish good people and trash their products.

The key is to be able to discern between the two.

@ Mike and Sam - go to ANY youtube video and just have a quick glance at the majority of comments below them and how negative and puerile they are - not to mention the foul language. Why do those people even bother to waste their time showing to all the world how idiotic they are?

Quite often the better the video the more disgusting comments and unlikes it will get.

Relative anonymity and hiding remotely and safely behind a keyboard emboldens far to many mice to grow into bloated rats.

This was defined a LONG time before Colin was even probably born... it's known as 'Social Proof'.

In regards to the OP, you have to take the good with the bad. The forum creates great social proof and sometimes that can influence people both positively and negatively. I think once a question has been answered it is not up for buyers to then debate that. If they don't like the answer they simply do not buy but they shouldn't then turn it into a heated debate.

Anytime someone knocks anothers sale thread, they should have their comments deleted and get a warning at least.

Unless they are buyers who have a ligitimate beef with the product or service etc...

Your absolutely right, that this should not go on, but unless you report someone right away and nip it in the bud, it could grow to the point that other people may be swayed not to buy and jump on the bandwagon.

This is what I call, knocking somoenes action.... not cool at all, ever!

An answer to the 'not reading the rules' problem can be that of when a new user tries to make their 1st post on the site they will get a popup message asking them to first read the rules. The rules will be embedded in the popup with a timer. The timer is to stop them from clicking a box that will say something along the lines of 'I have read and acknowledge these rules' before a certain time. The time can be measured by reading the rules at a moderate pace and setting the timer to match.

I believe this will lower the amount of people who don't read the rules because most people who are forced to read something before they can accomplish a task will do so. It's only a small percent who will see the message and just sit there and wait for the timer to expire. (Users will not see the timer).

I have found a mod that will force a user to read a certain thread (in this case the rules thread) before they can post anywhere on the site. The problem is it only works on version 4 and above of vBulletin. There is none for the current version WF is running right now. So it would mean going without this mod and trying something else, or updating the site to the latest version of VB. (Personally I don't know why it hasn't been updated already).

Upon reflection...

Sabotage of a WSO by a competitor is unacceptable. Seller should report ti immediately and admin / mods should take appropriate action be it deleting the post (minimum) and / or deleting the member is required.

Sellers who make massive claims should be able to back them up with proof.. social or otherwise.

These sellers should also -if they stand by their product - answer appropriate questions, tell others to butt out of the discussion, and not be aggressive with the buyer for asking.. unless the question is asked by the type listed above. In which case, just report the dipsticks and be the better person.

Buyers who actually buy should be entitled to leave feedback... good or bad.

I understand that these rules are probably in place... but my views on the matter.

I guess my thinking is that if you don't want to have an open discussion about your product then selling it on a forum thread is probably not the best idea.

if you want to deal with positive and negative questions/comments/feedback in private, then you need a normal sales page and a help desk.

The only real reason selling on a forum thread works better for some is because of the idea of social proof, a sense of community, and the product owners extensive forum profile.

However, those benefits can also turn out to be negatives. So in my opinion when you take the calculated risk of launching a product on a forum thread then you are essentially opening yourself up for the social proof and community effects to work either for you or against you.

The risk is that you (the product owner) don't get to decide which way the effects go (good or bad), the community does that for you.

Certainly some are out to just sabotage. But some of us very experienced marketers could essentially "sabotage" many of the offers in the WSO section by providing reasonable and factual arguments that oppose the almost certainly over-hype sales letter.

If we did that, would we wrong for helping customers to make more educated buying decisions? Or is it our responsibility to sit on the side lines and let less experienced people make buying decisions after hearing only one side of the story (from the sales letter).

BTW... I don't post in the WSO section (maybe 5 posts in my WF career). I choose to avoid it for a number of reasons, so I am not one of the ones sabotaging anyone's thread. But I do think it's upsetting that sellers think the social affects of this community should only be allowed to be positive.

I think it is kinda funny that almost every WSO holds post #2 for "FAQ", but doesn't actually want / welcome legitimate tough questions.

I have read the WSO thread that likely inspired this thread.

When challenged on the questions of whether the product owner had actually used the "tactics" being sold, the response was given that the owner uses pen names and for various legal reasons couldn't provide proof of using the techniques.

Now, I know the product owner and I know this is almost certainly true. However, a poor job of salemanship was done. The OP of that thread seemed under prepared for tough (yet legit) questions.

All that had to be done was essentially say... I know a guy using these techniques... here is his amazon account info. Then no pen names would have had to be revealed to be connected with the OP and better proof would have been given.

I have used pen names in my marketing career, its easy to use them as examples while talking about them in the third person without ever actually connecting them with you.

on a side note: ever wonder why sales pages don't have comment features? It is to prevent exactly this sort of stuff from happening. When you are selling something the more control of the situation you give up, the more risky it is.

That is what all the video explosion is really about...more control. Prospects can't scan the video, they have to watch the whole thing, and that makes it much easier for the seller to control the emotions of the prospect.

If you want to only let prospects see "positive FAQ's" and only positive reviews, then use a normal sales page. That way you get full control over every piece of html on that page.

People on a forum will never behave the way YOU want them to. I am sure Paul can back me up on that one.

I tend to buy WSO's in my niche to keep up with what my peers are doing. I recently bought a WSO and it was complete garbage! The claims being made in the sales copy were over the top. The list goes on and on.

The problem for me is that even though I bought the WSO, I can't really go back and leave the review that states the software "really" doesn't do all that you claim and you've left out very important factors that are critical to the success of the person implementing your system. So even if my review is accurate and isn't a personal attack on the vendor I still appear to be giving a skewed review because I'm a competitor in the same niche.

Because of this I have to really question if these vendors are even successful in my niche to begin with!

What am I to do Paul? How do we handle this situation?

Also, how do we "really" know the person posting a review in fact actually bought the product. There is no way of knowing in many cases because the forum ID's don't match the purchasers actual name.

To my astonishment I've had people buy my software product and let it sit on the hard drive for months before doing anything with it! By months I don't mean 1 or 2 either! I just recently had some one submit a ticket saying the software doesn't work but when I look at the version number its from over a year ago! They plainly admitted not touching it for almost a year!

I think tons of buyers do try a product but maybe they don't give it time to work and then move on to the next product and as I mentioned some just let them collect dust.

Also I think many people never return to say anything especially if a product does work. I know I wouldn't say a darn thing because I don't want 3000 other people now doing the exact same thing.

I remember a WSO about using a back linking service to rank videos. At about 1 month after the release that back linking service was no longer effective because of the success of the WSO had so many people using it. So as a buyer I don't want to come back and say jack that it works.

Paul you said,
The problem with that is if they aren't in the same space how can they speak authoritatively on the subject matter to begin with?

Most assuredly I'd appear to be bombing the WSO thread by posting my personal opinion/review of the product. You surely know enough about me to realize my intention wouldn't be to ruin a vendors business by posting a review as such but perception is often peoples reality.

Dani, nowhere did the seller admit that it was a "lie". You don't have any proof of it. Just your opinion on the situation and what your interpretations on what one of the sellers said.

Rob

TPW you said,

Well the problem is that this particular product was so full of utter tripe that there is really no way to leave a proper review without making myself look like a total A$$ hat! = (

I just tested your theory Rob. The very first WSO I just saw had zero comments. So my analysis is that no one uses the WSO section.

I see the train of thought you were trying to create, and then promptly ignored it. Only my opinion could be right because I thought of it and I'm the best ever. I don't have time to look at rules, facts, or common sense. I have millions to make!

1- it's a private forum. rules are set. play by the rules or don't play. as my dad used to say - either p1ss or get off the pot.

2- unfounded assumptions and generalizations about WSO's are just dumb and add nothing of value to the discussion.

3- whilst tempting (i have to admit), if you've no intention of buying or any interest in a product, why jump in with feedback. MYOB! The seller has the right to present and advertise his or her product as they see fit. In the end, the market will vote with their credit cards.

4- who the hell are you to give feedback on some one's copy or whatever ina a public forum... especially if you haven't purchased the product? How do you know if it's true or not?

5- it's a private forum. them's the rules etc etc.

You know if a WSO is really "not as advertised", you don't even really need to make a big hoopla about it. You can just report it and tell the mod why it's "crooked" and it will most likely just get closed if your claim is valid.

Some people like to grandstand, but it really isn't necessary if you've got the facts to substantiate your claim.

Hi Bill,

This is a pretty unfortunate - and growing issue, that many of us continue to see. Even as BIG Mike mentioned, sometimes vendor's are getting hassled and scrutinized for things that may not even be true, simply because of another person's particular opinion or even agenda.

Studies show that we humans are habitual creatures - in many sanctioned test's subjects have shown to almost ALWAYS go 'with the crowd' to the tune of about 80/20.

80% being the group of followers.

It's a basic psychology principal really. Most of us feel more comfortable to follow the crowd and just go unnoticed. This can work hugely in our favor, or sometimes against us.

It all depends on us being able to ethically relate with the higher 80% majority.

Happy Easter!

Instead of being overly concerned about how ones "self" looks to others by giving a not so positive review... Shouldnt your concern for others getting ripped off be the reason you would post the revuiew in the first place and not the motivating factor that seems to transcend the concerns here, which is "how does this make me look?"

Speaking with true authority and integrity can withstand any minor turbulance your reputation may have to endure here and there.

Being afraid of losing a handful of customers over an honest comment indicates that you arent considering how the forum white washes itself practically monthly and has almost entirely brand new cells... If a handful are offended by your views dont worry; 3 out of 5 wont be here in 90 days, one of your enemies will eventually find someone else to hate on, and the other will probably become your best friend later in life.

If Im not ticking someone off here and there or making someone say "I would never buy from that pompous jerk", then Im not really being authentic because half the crap I hear in offline is based on theory and rehashed "cover" statements that arent even close to how things really work.

I have actually carved my own niche by shooting from the hip and saying what I think...and allowing people to not like it.

Why?

Because you cant please everyone all the time, and you cant be true to yourself or anyone else by trying to.

And most of what Im saying is rehash that I learned from Paul Myers Books, buts its darn valuable stuff to internalize and make a part of your disposition about things around here.

Speaking your mind and finding your original voice... If you try to please everyone you will never fully connect to the group of people who are specifically relevant and PERFECT for working with you.

The tune changes, but the trumpet stays the same. Thats how you know it isnt really a clarinet in disguise... because when the true colors start shining and the potential for it to be something else was examined... it was still a trumpet all the way to the bone...no matter how you sandblast it, just like you expected to be.

Sure it can change tunes, but it always speaks with its own authentic tone...in every tune its the trumpet.

Some people may not like your tune, but if you change everytime someone new passes by, then you will miss the true trumpet lovers and they will miss you and you will never be comfortable in your own space.


In other words, just be honest about your reviews. If people think you are bashing, and you ARENT...then

A: You dont have trust with your market anyway if they give you that little credit.
B: You are just getting closer to finding the group that works best with your particular brand of style and disqualifying everyone else, so its okay.

Ultimately; Dont worry about anyones customers opinions but your own... instead of worrying about losing market share by being real, worry more about GAINING it by being real.

Isntead of being afraid that a custopmer wont like you because you apeared to be trolling...they may even like you MORE because your opinion was valid... or they may hate you for no good reason. In any event how can you find your vibrational match if you arent sending out your authentic vibe?

Im ranting...out again.