[perryny]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

Life is risk. A life well lived means you faced lots of risk. She said no? She broke my heart? That ad didn't work? That business failed?

That's being a Warrior.

If a new, deadly, highly contagious virus emerges, choosing to live and die with it, rather than protect ourselves and extinguish it immediately is not living with risk. This behavior is idiotic, selfish, financially devastating and disproportionately deadly to those around you. Choosing to live with this threat rather than quickly destroy it is not the warrior way.

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by perryny

This behavior is idiotic, selfish, financially devastating and disproportionately deadly to those around you.

Listen. I took care of my mom with cancer during the worst of it in New York. I had to make decisions about how to get her to her chemo the safest way possible. She beat cancer and she never got Covid.

I put my business plans on hold for that. I lost anywhere from $ 25K to $ 50K because of that.

While also taking care of my son as a single father.

That's why I actually LEARNED about Covid. Facts. Not what some media outlet wants me to think. I had to make a decision --

My mom's cancer had a 30% risk of killing her. Covid, by all calculations at the time, when adjusted for IFR? I forget the exact number.

But WAAAY below 10%. So that's life. You calculate the many risks that are present and decide based on that. You don't sit in a cave waiting for the magic men to make it all go away.

That's what people are doing. Waiting for the magic wizards at pharma companies to make the cooties go away. It's childish.

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Fear is one of nature's survival mechanisms. It prevents us from doing all sorts of dangerous, stupid shyte.

Not really. The fears humans have most likely are not widely distributed throughout nature. Most are societal constructs. Haha. I sound woke.

Go look up what "fear of contagion" is. And what happens when it runs unchecked. The "other" becomes an enemy that has to be "removed" from society.

So they cheer when Herman Cain dies.

As if he wasn't a fellow human being. And they rationalize it -- he might have gotten other people sick, therefore he deserves it.

That's dangerous thinking. That's what fear does.

Fear doesn't stop me from doing stupid shit. My brain's ability to predict an outcome that isn't worth the risk. That's what actually does that.

For most people?

Fear makes them do nothing. Hoping that the thing they are afraid of will magically go away. Or that someone else other than them will go and handle it.

And that makes them susceptible. A person caught up in fear? Can easily be conned.

Go look up the Blair Warren One Sentence Persuasion Course.

Here's the sentence (and it's how charlatans and con artists and dictators take control too):

People will do anything for those who encourage their dreams, justify their failures, allay their fears, confirm their suspicions, and help them throw rocks at their enemies.

The UN also warned about this: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9438561.html

(See how I can produce links for what I talk about -- FACTS)

[Dan Riffle]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

Okay so the risk is not 1 out of 17. Try again. I listen to medical podcasts that lean hard left.

They are not anti maskers or anti Trump.

And nobody talks about death rates that high. The high end right now is 0.65 IFR and low end is below 0.2%.

That'd be about 1 bullet out of 500 or 1 bullet out of 167.

And there's a reward at the end of every empty chamber -- Life, love, experiences, happiness, etc, etc.

Come again.

And little cost?

Read this: https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/07/1068601

Maybe not cost to YOU personally. But cost to the world at large for sure. Think outside of yourself.

Also this -- Warriors or Worriers? You choose.

Life is risk. A life well lived means you faced lots of risk. She said no? She broke my heart? That ad didn't work? That business failed?

That's being a Warrior.

I know more about Covid than every single scaredy cat I have encountered. Which is why I'm not scared.

Fear is NOT a virtue. It's being afraid. That's it.

I was referencing a figure discussed earlier in the post. And my point was more about the potential long term effects that are being see.

If you read my posts on the subject, you'll see they my position is less about the death rate and more about the long term effects and the asymptomatic nature of the illness.

And I highly doubt wearing a mask and socially distancing in Ohio is creating famine in Africa.

Think outside myself? I wear a mask, maintain social distance, and generally stay away from people because I don't want to get sick and bring it home to my family AND because I may already be sick and don't want to give it to someone else.

It's fine to say life is all risk when yours is the only one you have to answer for. You want to smoke, go ahead. It's a risk, but, generally, you're only killing yourself. You want to drink your liver into oblivion? Go for it. It's just you.

It's different when your risk tolerance affects others, though. Would you want your wife to drink like a fish while she's pregnant? Life is risk, right? Is it your loved one's risk-based choice to get COVID from you because you determined that the inherent risk of a global pandemic wasn't high enough?

Life isn't risk. Life is assessed and managed risk.

Being a Warrior is about analyzing risk and developing an appropriate strategy.

I don't think anyone here is scared. I've developed my strategy, thus I'm not afraid. Others here have done the same. You can interpret our strategies as fear, I guess, in the same way that I interpret yours as hubris.

[perryny]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

That's what people are doing. Waiting for the magic wizards at pharma companies to make the cooties go away. It's childish.

No they're not. They're attending giant motorcycle rallies, and state fairs, and political rallies and amusement parks and opening colleges only so the students can go to bars and parties and continue the spread. And huge swaths of the population continue to refuse to wear masks or social distance or act in any way like this is something we should try to defeat.

It's way worse than childish. It's ignorant, selfish, devastating to the economy and deadly to the population.


Added: And weddings.

[tagiscom]

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Yes. The people who adapt; not the people who stick to a story that has been consistently debunked.

What is it now, 6% death rate from Covid?

Isn't it amazing how the deadly virus story keeps falling apart as more time goes by?

Peru now has the highest death rate. They had the strictest lock downs. While Sweden is now down to 11th in the death rate toll, and magically keeps dropping because they defeated the virus by not locking down. Same as they do every flu season.

It's almost like the lock downs spread the death count out over time, isn't it?

Here are 500 conspiracy theorists...
More than 500 German doctors & scientists have signed on as representatives of an organization called the "Corona Extra-Parliamentary Inquiry Committee" to investigate what's happening on our planet with regards to COVID-19...

https://www.collective-evolution.com...s-on-covid-19/

This conspiracy theorist is a real nutcase...
Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, a specialist in microbiology and one of the most cited research scientists in German history shares his thoughts on the measures that are being taken to combat the new coronavirus...

Our Premier, has told us he wants lockdowns for our state for one, or two or up to 5 years, (this is from his quote) and thanks to some fringe groups can pretty much do what he wants, (barring reinstating restrictions from a new indepent panels review,..phew).

And at current rates of infections, it would probably take us, 5 to 10 years to reach herd immunity, (unlikely with a vaccine, that we will get sooner).

Ten years or the year 2030.

And yeah, l could bring up similar evidence about how affective masks have been, but l couldn't be bothered since,.....never mind, (l know that this evil, vicious virus, is no laughing matter).

And l appreciate you trying to demonstrate another angle, but some will accept mass media over other viewpoints, regardless of how good it is.

[Profit Traveler]

The real cure of a Pandemic has to be just like the Contagion itself....an organized Coalition.

That was and is the biggest mistake. IMO.

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

And I highly doubt wearing a mask and socially distancing in Ohio is creating famine in Africa.

Did you read the link? The global economy is global. When the majority of countries lock down, it impacts the entire world. It has nothing to do with you being in Ohio.

The rest of your post seems directed at Declan and not me. I have a family, thanks. I take care of my family, glad you asked. I had to make a real life/death decision about my mom and her chemo treatments at the height of the pandemic in NY. Go look up what was happening DAILY in March and April in NY.

I don't smoke or drink. And risk management only really works when you accurately measure risk. If you overestimate risk?

You make bad decisions. Every business person should understand that. That's what being a Warrior used to be about. Warriors took what "looked" like high risk chances to the uninformed. But were actually not so risky when numbers and data were known.

The numbers and data have been there for Covid for months upon months. I could make a long link list of articles from April and May.

About what true IFR is. About how far and wide it actually spread. About the comorbidities.

It was ALL known back in April and May. But hardly anyone reads science about Covid.

But this is just making people even more "tribal" than they were when it comes to politics and science. And that is a known psychology phenomenon. Fear of contagion INCREASES tribalism behavior.

Link: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...our-psychology

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by perryny

No they're not. They're attending giant motorcycle rallies, and state fairs, and political rallies and amusement parks and opening colleges only so the students can go to bars and parties and continue the spread. And huge swaths of the population continue to refuse to wear masks or social distance or act in any way like this is something we should try to defeat.

It's way worse than childish. It's ignorant, selfish, devastating to the economy and deadly to the population.

So do you see what you did there?

Sturgis had an attendance of around 365,000. That translates to 0.1% of the US population. Which also means 99.9% did NOT attend Sturgis.

Do you see the pattern?

Most people are NOT doing the things you think they are doing. It's a tiny fraction of a percent.

But the news told you everyone is doing it and showed you pictures of lots of people. So that's what propaganda is.

We create marketing propaganda for products and services. We should be able to spot propaganda pretty easily.

No?

P.S. The easiest way to use fear of contagion to manipulate is to blow risk way out of proportion. The best marketers in the world work in the field of politics. Yup. Even your side, your team.

They make the Halberts of the world look like amateurs. Because they have think tanks and academia behind them.

[perryny]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

Most people are NOT doing the things you think they are doing. It's a tiny fraction of a percent.

Here is where you and I disagree.

With all the facts in front of our eyes, yet us seeing very different things, I'm pretty sure we won't see eye to eye on this.

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by perryny

Here is where you and I disagree.

With all the facts in front of our eyes, yet us seeing very different things, I'm pretty sure we won't see eye to eye on this.

Probably not.

I used to have really bad anxieties. And learned it was my brain blowing risk out of proportion. Like I used to be an everyday weed smoker when I was 16 to 21. It was all self-medicating anxiety.

So I learned, when I put the weed down at 21, to check my anxiety. With facts and data. I didn't need NLP or psychiatry. I just had to learn that my brain kinda overblows risk. And operate with that knowledge. By collecting data and facts and stuff.

And 18 years later? I am proud to say I am barely functional and somewhat competent haha.

But that is what we are trained to do. By news that needs clicks and eyeballs. By people that need our support and dollars.

We are trained to blow risk way out of proportion.

Good link: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...virus-outbreak

Another good link about how bad news actually is for humans to consume: https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...d-rolf-dobelli
(Maybe the best one I have dropped in this entire thread)

P.S. One of the biggest untalked about pandemics? Is mental health. And long periods of anxiety and isolation are terrible for mental health. Depending on the research, the political correctness, etc, etc ...

Anywhere from 10-25% of the adult population has a mental health issue at any given moment in time. That's an "unintended consequence" of locking societies down. But very real. And very hazardous and it's not just things like suicide --

It's hopelessness. Thinking the world is evil. Thinking the "others" are wrong. So wrong they deserve to get Covid. That's a mental health problem.

Yet the media is spreading it.

[Profit Traveler]

Coronavirus is not racist, partisan, or selective at all. It treats everyone equally.

But there are those that welcome it with open arms in their actions and in-actions.
That in turn endangers others that also have to experience the repercussions and consequences of those actions.

[Kay King]

he best marketers in the world work in the field of politics.

Very true.

What I see in this thread are recurring arguments - what I don't see is commentary on visible improvements in the 'numbers'.

US new cases continues to drop - deaths yesterday were the equivalent of SEVEN per state. How many accidental deaths/homocides/suicides/drug OD deaths did those state have yesterday? Have you seen any GOOD news about the 'numbers' in the media? I haven't - it's all predictions of more doom and gloom....even though most previous predictions were wrong...

If you are in panic mode or in what my family called 'hibernation mode' - you have to stick your head up once in a while to see what has changed. Where I live every expansion of 're-opening' business leads to a TEMPORARY upswing in new cases...which rapidly begins to decline in number.



I don't see covid-19 as 'equal opportunity' - we know the elderly and those with chronic health problems are most at risk of death. The biggest MISTAKE made in recent months was the failure of some states to focus on protecting those most vulnerable people. It was a hard learning curve.

When you have 1/3 the new cases you had several weeks ago - and 1/4 of the deaths you had a couple weeks ago....it's time to expand your re-opening. It's time to start moving ahead again.

Many countries in Europe have kids back in classrooms and ordered teachers back to the schools...and they are doing OK.

If you are in the 'at risk' population -you know that and can stay home - avoid others as you have been doing. Wear a mask and use sanitizers frequently just as you have been doing.



Those with no health issues should be going back to work - re-opening businesses, getting kids back to school. A woman i know slightly told me yesterday 'we should not re-open until there are 0 cases in this country'....not exactly a realistic plan.


It took weeks, if not months, to convince people there was a real risk of a pandemic - that we were IN a pandemic. Maybe it's not surprising it's taking just as long to convince people we may be seeing light at the end of that tunnel.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

So do you see what you did there?

Sturgis had an attendance of around 365,000. That translates to 0.1% of the US population. Which also means 99.9% did NOT attend Sturgis.

Do you see the pattern?

Most people are NOT doing the things you think they are doing. It's a tiny fraction of a percent.

But the news told you everyone is doing it and showed you pictures of lots of people. So that's what propaganda is.

I cannot imagine that anyone thinks that most people in the US attended Sturgis. It was just an example. One of many.

Perryny said " They're attending giant motorcycle rallies, and state fairs, and political rallies and amusement parks and opening colleges only so the students can go to bars and parties and continue the spread.

And even then, it didn't mean that most people did one of these things.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I cannot imagine that anyone thinks that most people in the US attended Sturgis. It was just an example. One of many.

Perryny said " They're attending giant motorcycle rallies, and state fairs, and political rallies and amusement parks and opening colleges only so the students can go to bars and parties and continue the spread.

And even then, it didn't mean that most people did one of these things.

1 Coid death of a man in his mid 60s .. linked to the sturgis rally ..4 econist in germany ... put a model together .. that says 266,000 cases of covid can be lined to sturgis .. yet only 1 death ..


so maybe a far less leathal version of the virus got spread from sturgis ..

[Kay King]

Models - and predictions - and extrapolations....and most of the ones posted about 2-3-4 months ago did not become reality.

"Mother Jones" is claiming 'over 250,000 cases linked to Sturgis....typical for that particular rag. Similar sites feature statements like "the number of cases from Sturgis rally has now EXCEEDED 260"....excuse me. Would that be...261? Then these 'sites' go into extrapolations of what 'epidemiologists predict might happen'....in other words, fiction.

In realty, 260 covid cases have been linked to Sturgis rally and the first death (60 yr old) was last week. There were estimated 400k bikers with no masks or social distancing....I was surprised at the LOW number of transmissions. It should be cause for celebration. If the cases were low with no masks and no distancing...means our chances are great, doesn't it?

Instead of accepting we may be coming out 'on the other side' of the pandemic - you look for an explanation of 'less lethal' version though there is no proof of any such strain.

It's like once people accepted being afraid - they don't want to get over it. Perhaps there is a certain excitement/drama associated with a crisis?

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Models - and predictions - and extrapolations....and most of the ones posted about 2-3-4 months ago did not become reality.

"Mother Jones" is claiming 'over 250,000 cases linked to Sturgis....typical for that particular rag. Similar sites feature statements like "the number of cases from Sturgis rally has now EXCEEDED 260"....excuse me. Would that be...261? Then these 'sites' go into extrapolations of what 'epidemiologists predict might happen'....in other words, fiction.

In realty, 260 covid cases have been linked to Sturgis rally and the first death (60 yr old) was last week. There were estimated 400k bikers with no masks or social distancing....I was surprised at the LOW number of transmissions. It should be cause for celebration. If the cases were low with no masks and no distancing...means our chances are great, doesn't it?

Instead of accepting we may be coming out 'on the other side' of the pandemic - you look for an explanation of 'less lethal' version though there is no proof of any such strain.

It's like once people accepted being afraid - they don't want to get over it. Perhaps there is a certain excitement/drama associated with a crisis?

thank you key that was the post i would have made .. if i felt fact actually mattered to the people who would rather fear ..

instead i made an offa=hand jab at the whole modeling thing .. that has had a terrible track record through this .. and the people who want to go yacking about global warming or climate change again .. better not bring up computer models ..after this .

anyway .. things are opening up in parts of the country where people are reasonable and closed down where people believe the fear .. and the next economy is in the building stage as the old economic model dies ..

the moritorium on evictions is going to have worse long term effects on the economy than the destruction of tens of millions of small businesses .







..

w

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I cannot imagine that anyone thinks that most people in the US attended Sturgis. It was just an example. One of many.

Perryny said " They're attending giant motorcycle rallies, and state fairs, and political rallies and amusement parks and opening colleges only so the students can go to bars and parties and continue the spread.

And even then, it didn't mean that most people did one of these things.

That was his response to me saying people are waiting for a magic vaccine. Waaay more people are waiting for that magic vaccine ...

Than are doing all of the things he listed combined. Which gives a much clearer picture of what the vast majority of Americans are actually doing.

Sure 0.1% went to a motorcycle rally. 99.9% did not. Still the point. Most Americans are not doing any of those things.

And let's point out a reality --

China has far more capability of getting compliance from their citizens and still ...

5 million people left Wuhan right before it locked down.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ma...sed-2020-01-26

That was the root cause of the spread. But yeah, those "others" who went to Sturgis. Or the beach. Boy!! Am I mad at them!!!

It's silly.

Also this --

Because college kids always get scapegoated for everything. It's too easy.

I live near a college campus. The students I see?

Are masked up and socially distancing the best they can.

What more can we ask?

Why turn them into villains?

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

5 million people left Wuhan right before it locked down.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ma...sed-2020-01-26

That was the root cause of the spread. But yeah, those "others" who went to Sturgis. Or the beach. Boy!! Am I mad at them!!!

I think you are reading meaning into posts where it isn't intended.

I think you are taking the most extreme interpretation of what is posted, and arguing against that.

This is the root cause of nearly every argument.

[DWolfe]

AstraZeneca put a hold on its Vaccine today after a reaction. Good to see one company is not going to rush a vaccine into the markets. Curious to see how others work out.

[Kay King]

Reading over posts in this thread is an interesting study in how people think.


There will be a vaccine - when there is a vaccine. No company is going to release such a vaccine without full testing - would be corporate suicide.


Meanwhile - the US numbers at least are still DECLINING....no matter how many people were on the beach or in Sturgis or in the streets....the numbers keep going DOWN. The death rate goes down, too.


Time after time that information is met with 'yes, but...' which is a way of saying 'ignore the info you just read'....



Yes, but experts say it could get worse
Yes, but wait til the 'second wave'
Yes, but the predictions are for XXXXXXXXX by XXXXX


Why is it we can't accept good news? Deaths reported yesterday were just under 500 - 10 per state....how many people died of suicide, overdose, accidents that are a DIRECT RESULT or SIDE EFFECT of the lockdown rather than the pandemic itself?



It is time for practical considerations and common sense to replace the media fear mongering. There is a point at which the level of the pandemic is not as harmful as the RESPONSES to the pandemic...have we reached that point???

[Profit Traveler]

I love research it really pays off in a cesspool of intentional misinformation.

This is one of the best "just the facts", easy to digest, articles you can quickly scan and make adjustments and keep moving.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dr-f...203948720.html

Includes facts that obesity is high risk, pets can be infected, and "the holy grail".

[Medon]

I think the corona virus era is coming to a sudden halt. The oxford team is doing a great job. And if the vaccine is found to be safe, we are headed for a bright future in a matter of days.

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by Medon

I think the corona virus era is coming to a sudden halt. The oxford team is doing a great job. And if the vaccine is found to be safe, we are headed for a bright future in a matter of days.

I love optimism my friend I wish I could put yours in an energy drink!

But then I go do some research...this is 48 hours ago..

Oxford University Covid vaccine trial put on hold due to possible adverse reaction in participant

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...in-participant


The great news is that there are so many great minds working on vaccines. But I will be somewhere near the back of the line once it's ready. But Def in line.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Medon

I think the corona virus era is coming to a sudden halt. The oxford team is doing a great job. And if the vaccine is found to be safe, we are headed for a bright future in a matter of days.

Many people, maybe 1/3 of the US population, say they won't take the vaccine at all and many more will wait until they see if it really works so I'm not sure it's the end all and be all that some people hope.

Mark

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

Many people, maybe 1/3 of the US population, say they won't take the vaccine at all and many more will wait until they see if it really works so I'm not sure it's the end all and be all that some people hope.

Mark

Can ya blame em? It's not like we have a fantastic track record with this stuff.

Since I'm responsible for a group of people who are at risk, I'm going to be one of the first in line, MY crazy brain can't figure out if I'm going to be brave enough or stupid enough, or smart enough to make my little boy get it, or wait.

TBH, I am more confident now that we can see the regular steps in action to protect people, like getting more minorities, pausing, and getting larger test groups.

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I think you are reading meaning into posts where it isn't intended.

I think you are taking the most extreme interpretation of what is posted, and arguing against that.

This is the root cause of nearly every argument.

I don’t think so. Can you give me an example?

There’s a bunch of narratives at play -- International, National, State level, etc, etc.

Designed to divide Americans. And there are talking points that go along with those narratives.

I’m poking holes in those talking points and those narratives. That’s all.

Quick example -- A lot of A-listers in the entertainment world have gotten Covid. But the news doesn’t turn them into villains. Quite the contrary. They become heroes. So brave. OMG, so brave! Haha.

How far and wide did the entertainment industry spread Covid? Nobody wants to track that.

But -- and this is the context here -- A college campus of 10,000 students has an outbreak of 100-200 cases. That’s 1-2% of their population.

And college kids are shamed. They're all gonna kill grandma. Right. You know who killed more grandmas than college kids?

Nursing homes. A medical sub-community. That's who.

Okay. So we’ve had towns of 10,000 people that have had 100-200 cases of Covid. We don’t shame the town. And make assumptions.

Why is that? Because we mostly believe the stereotype. That college kids are reckless and party and blah blah blah.

And Sturgis motorcyclists are deplorable. And we had neighbors calling police on neighbors for not wearing a mask in their own backyard.

There’s a lot of craziness that has nothing to do with science being put out there. And the way it gets put out there --

Is to amplify risk. And use fear of contagion to manipulate. And it is still surprising that some marketers can't see this.

In fact, some are eating it up with a spoon. Like gimme some more haha.

P.S. In a lot of Euro countries -- half the deaths or more came from nursing homes. And that's true too for lots of US states. But yea. Let's put it on everyone but those nursing homes. Sure. Makes a lot of sense.

(also this, maybe nature is just nature and does what it does. maybe the blame game is silly all around)

[lanfear63]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

I don’t think so. Can you give me an example?

There’s a bunch of narratives at play -- International, National, State level, etc, etc.

Designed to divide Americans. And there are talking points that go along with those narratives.

I’m poking holes in those talking points and those narratives. That’s all.

Quick example -- A lot of A-listers in the entertainment world have gotten Covid. But the news doesn’t turn them into villains. Quite the contrary. They become heroes. So brave. OMG, so brave! Haha.

How far and wide did the entertainment industry spread Covid? Nobody wants to track that.

But -- and this is the context here -- A college campus of 10,000 students has an outbreak of 100-200 cases. That’s 1-2% of their population.

And college kids are shamed. They're all gonna kill grandma. Right. You know who killed more grandmas than college kids?

Nursing homes. A medical sub-community. That's who.

Okay. So we’ve had towns of 10,000 people that have had 100-200 cases of Covid. We don’t shame the town. And make assumptions.

Why is that? Because we mostly believe the stereotype. That college kids are reckless and party and blah blah blah.

And Sturgis motorcyclists are deplorable. And we had neighbors calling police on neighbors for not wearing a mask in their own backyard.

There’s a lot of craziness that has nothing to do with science being put out there. And the way it gets put out there --

Is to amplify risk. And use fear of contagion to manipulate. And it is still surprising that some marketers can't see this.

In fact, some are eating it up with a spoon. Like gimme some more haha.

P.S. In a lot of Euro countries -- half the deaths or more came from nursing homes. And that's true too for lots of US states. But yea. Let's put it on everyone but those nursing homes. Sure. Makes a lot of sense.

(also this, maybe nature is just nature and does what it does. maybe the blame game is silly all around)

Much of what you said is irrelevant. We are a bunch of people living on a rock with a contagion that kills about 4 percent of those who catch it, No Treatment or Cure or Vaccination yet for it and it tends to kill more people who are elderly or infirm because their bodies are weaker.

Perhaps abandon applying blame, naming names, to politicize it etc, waste of time. It's going to kill a lot of people unless it mutates to something more benevolent or unless we get that cure or vaccination. The only thing we can do is wash our hands, wear masks and keep a distance from each other and hope we can find a cure soon. If we don't do that, sorry, it's just collective stupidity.

This has happened before, it will happen again.

That's about it really.

[socialentry]

Much has been written about fear, but it is hardly the appropriate label.

Currently, the Canadian federal parliament is prorogued. Before this, it was only partially sitting.

For all the yelling,protests and complaining about sanitary measures and tyranny, none ,it seems, are bothered by the legislative branch essentially not doing its job.

Only one grotesquery amongst many that leave no room for its cousin, fear. It's like waking up in a horror movie and realizing it's "Beetlejuice goes to Amsterdam".

Or ending up in purgatory and realizing the celestial bureaucracy has lost your file.

One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

I don’t think so. Can you give me an example?

There’s a bunch of narratives at play -- International, National, State level, etc, etc.

Designed to divide Americans. And there are talking points that go along with those narratives.

I’m poking holes in those talking points and those narratives. That’s all.

Quick example -- A lot of A-listers in the entertainment world have gotten Covid. But the news doesn’t turn them into villains. Quite the contrary. They become heroes. So brave. OMG, so brave! Haha.

How far and wide did the entertainment industry spread Covid? Nobody wants to track that.

But -- and this is the context here -- A college campus of 10,000 students has an outbreak of 100-200 cases. That’s 1-2% of their population.

And college kids are shamed. They're all gonna kill grandma. Right. You know who killed more grandmas than college kids?

Nursing homes. A medical sub-community. That's who.

Okay. So we’ve had towns of 10,000 people that have had 100-200 cases of Covid. We don’t shame the town. And make assumptions.

Why is that? Because we mostly believe the stereotype. That college kids are reckless and party and blah blah blah.

And Sturgis motorcyclists are deplorable. And we had neighbors calling police on neighbors for not wearing a mask in their own backyard.

There’s a lot of craziness that has nothing to do with science being put out there. And the way it gets put out there --

Is to amplify risk. And use fear of contagion to manipulate. And it is still surprising that some marketers can't see this.

In fact, some are eating it up with a spoon. Like gimme some more haha.

P.S. In a lot of Euro countries -- half the deaths or more came from nursing homes. And that's true too for lots of US states. But yea. Let's put it on everyone but those nursing homes. Sure. Makes a lot of sense.

(also this, maybe nature is just nature and does what it does. maybe the blame game is silly all around)

You are absolutely correct....your entire example of A listers getting preferential treatment is an example of division.


There will be accountability for COVID...kids, elderly, our family our neighbors were put in harms way intentionally.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Profit Traveler

You are absolutely correct....your entire example of A listers getting preferential treatment is an example of division.


There will be accountability for COVID...kids, elderly, our family our neighbors were put in harms way intentionally.

I seriously doubt it. Some of the most heinous shit is already blowing over.

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I seriously doubt it. Some of the most heinous shit is already blowing over.

True but can be revisited.

This crisis is not going anywhere it is getting worse. I did read where Fauci said some resemblance of normalcy a couple of months after a Vaccine. That then would be 2021 I am guessing.

Both the Dakotas are now worse hot spots ..both big on no maskers.

[Kay King]

Both the Dakotas are now worse hot spots .

"both the dakotas" - put together - had just over 600 new cases yesterday and ONE death in each state.

If what you are looking for are 'the worst hot spots' - you have lots of countries and, in the US, 50 states to choose from. You can pick one every day to prove how 'bad' it is....or you can look at the trend and clearly see it's going down.

Total deaths in US yesterday were 392 - as I posted earlier - the total spikes up for a day or two but then settle down lower than it was before the spike - it is a downward trend.

Only 13 states had 20 or more deaths yesterday - and only 1 had more than 50. other states had death rate in the teens and 26 states were less than 10.

The good news is many states had 5 or less deaths per state yesterday.....many had 0 or 1 or 2.... Getting harder to justify keeping businesses closed or limited and keeping schools closed with numbers that low.

The Great News is that reporting from other countries around the globe shows a similar decline in deaths from covid - only India is still showing four figures in the 'deaths' column.

The argument, of course, is 'it could get worse' - but it IS getting better.....and harder to justify the doom and gloom scenarios. If people are being infected and NOT dying from covid - the story has changed.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

"both the dakotas" - put together - had just over 600 new cases yesterday and ONE death in each state.

The average deaths from Covid per day...on a 7 day running average have been about 800 a day since mid July. It is slowly going in a downward trend, but it's a slow reduction. Here are the daily stats.

https://covidtracking.com/data/charts/us-daily-deaths

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Kay King

The argument, of course, is 'it could get worse' - but it IS getting better.....and harder to justify the doom and gloom scenarios. If people are being infected and NOT dying from covid - the story has changed.

A downward trend doesn't mean things are getting better. We might
be heading downward into a valley or plateau.

Also, we are dealing with more then one issue, one OTHER issue is that
the regular flu season is coming up fast and it's going to exasperate the issue
and cause a spike in deaths, in part because of a lack of PPE ( yes, that's still a problem ) and in part because the cold weather will will increase the spread and we know that a large percentage of people regardless of age NEED the ICU in order to survive.

Then add the two to three week time delay and whups, its not a valley any more.

Peaks, valleys and plateau's are par for the course.

You cant just say, less people are dying right now, things must be getting better.
That's false and IMHO, dangerous thinking.

[Kay King]

A slow reduction is still a reduction - we have states with 0 deaths for days that are still keeping businesses closed.

We know who is most at risk - we know how to limit that risk....there is no rationale to keep the country closed to business.

You can see the 'spikes' when states began to re-open - and then see the decline in cases once again. It's what I predicted in an earlier post - there will be spikes but each 'spike' is lower and begins to decline quickly.

Those at most risk - can get groceries delivered - buy anything they need online and don't have to 'mingle' with others. So many small business people and employees are desperate to get back to work and there is no reason not to re-open.

No one will make you go to a restaurant or a theater or a mall - but seems time for the public to have options and choose their own path. The arguments against re-opening go from 'not yet' to 'what about the second wave'..... When the arguments no longer make sense, people start ignoring them or resisting safety suggestions.

The trend is down no matter how many graphs you look at. You can point to one 'hot spot' after another but the definition of 'hot spot' seems to have changed.

If everything in my area were fully open now - it wouldn't change what I do - I'd still stay home a lot, wear a mask always when away from home, social distance in stores, etc. That would be MY choice - but we have to also realize the damage being done to so many people in the name of 'public safety'.

I finally got my hair cut last week - wore a mask the entire time - every chair and area was sanitized in between customers - even the brushsd and combs were exchanged. The 'stations' have been reduced and moved so there is at least 10 ft in between them. The business owners are doing everything possible to keep customers safe - they don't need to be closed/controlled until they are out of business.

[Claude Whitacre]

There has to be a balance. You don't shut down an economy because one person dies....or even because one death could have been prevented.

Will opening up specific businesses make matters worse? How much worse?

Some events and businesses cannot open up because the results will be catastrophic. Audiences at sports arenas is an example...indoor political rallies, trade shows, large church gatherings, events like Mardi Gras. Gyms are an unfortunate example.

In other words, places and events where there are lots of people indoors that are yelling, cheering, singing, and not wearing masks. And in some of these events...people are just not going to wear a mask.

But in some areas these things still happen, and the results are always predictable.
But shut down most businesses? Because it will save one life in a state? No.

We have speed limits because it's been determined that they save lives. A 35 mph speed limit on a highway would save more lives. Yup. That would save lives...but the public won't stand for a 35 mph speed limit on a highway. So there is a compromise.

On the other hand, the US is still at about 40,000 new cases a day.

And some of us old farts aren't ready to go yet.

Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty

Staggering!

What you just said is so incredibly naive. It's you who should be ashamed. You should be ashamed that your mind is not your own.

How could "One death.....one single death that could have been prevented is a travesty." be naive? You may not agree with it, but it doesn't show naivety. Idealism maybe.

And there is no way you can extract "Your own mind is not your own" from anything posted.

And how could anyone be ashamed that their mind is not their own? If their mind is not their own, there would be no way to know that. So they would be blameless.

Your post makes no sense. So...should that make you ashamed?

I don't think so.

[Profit Traveler]

If we put all the people who will not wear a mask together and quarantined them together..there would be no more Coronaivirus...or them.

In 2008 there was a virus, a Financial Virus with Banks dropping dead. The only thing that changed was Strategist Then Success..

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

That's not called for.

There has to be a balance. You don't shut down an economy because one person dies....or even because one death could have been prevented.

Will opening up specific businesses make matters worse? How much worse?

Some events and businesses cannot open up because the results will be catastrophic. Audiences at sports arenas is an example...indoor political rallies, trade shows, large church gatherings, events like Mardi Gras. Gyms are an unfortunate example.

In other words, places and events where there are lots of people indoors that are yelling, cheering, singing, and not wearing masks. And in some of these events...people are just not going to wear a mask.

But in some areas these things still happen, and the results are always predictable.
But shut down most businesses? Because it will save one life in a state? No.

We have speed limits because it's been determined that they save lives. A 35 mph speed limit on a highway would save more lives. Yup. That would save lives...but the public won't stand for a 35 mph speed limit on a highway. So there is a compromise.

On the other hand, the US is still at about 40,000 new cases a day.

And some of us old farts aren't ready to go yet.




How could "One death.....one single death that could have been prevented is a travesty." be naive? You may not agree with it, but it doesn't show naivety. Idealism maybe.

And there is no way you can extract "Your own mind is not your own" from anything posted.

And how could anyone be ashamed that their mind is not their own? If their mind is not their own, there would be no way to know that. So they would be blameless.

Your post makes no sense. So...should that make you ashamed?

I don't think so.

The point had nothing to do with shutdowns my friend..you know that...it had to do with prevention of the death in the first place.

[Kay King]

And some of us old farts aren't ready to go yet.

True - but there are things 'old pharts' can do to protect themselves - the idea that the world should be closed indefinitely is not realistic. One woman in her 60's with 'multiple underlying conditions' succumbed to covid in ND yesterday.... you can't protect everyone.

I wonder how many here have done what they can to protect themselves? if you're a bit overweight - have you lost weight? If you are a bit out of shape - have you been exercising for the past few months?

I've noticed a few people i personally know who are obese have gained weight - one woman quit taking the daily walks her doctor prescribed - because 'there might be covid in the air'. She lives in the country on a quiet country road.... those people, almost without exception, think we should 'stay closed' indefinitely. If you aren't willing to try to protect yourself - should others go broke trying to keep you safe? Where is the balance?

There is no magic cure - nor will there be. Any vaccine will have limitations - they all do. But there is no need for everything to be doom and gloom. Balance declining cases/deaths with a slow but steady return to normality. We have to do that and do it soon.

Time to stop the drama and find ways to safely re-open and let people take responsibility for protecting themselves.

If there is one big public initiative i think was totally missed - it was the chance to challenge/motivate the public to improve their OWN quality of life and health during the pandemic. I think medical 'experts' should have focused some of their attention on that rather than talking over each other about pandemic predictions.

[Profit Traveler]

I just do not understand how someone focuses on economics over competent strategy to just get rid of the dang thing. It kills.

Robert Serling of the Twilight Zone would be shocked....or maybe not...

Before every episode the monologue...

It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone.

[Kay King]

I just do not understand how someone focuses on economics over competent strategy to just get rid of the dang thing. It kills.

If you spent years building a profitable business, having children you are responsible for, buying your family home and cars for yourself and your spouse....you don't have the luxury of focusing ONLY on the pandemic.

Suicides are up, domestic violence calls are up, child abuse calls are down (not being reported by teachers/child care workers/neighbors?) and in some areas children are going hungry. People have had time to learn to protect themselves - time to also consider the 'greater good'.

I do not understand how someone decides the economic survival of others in different circumstances is irrelevant or unimportant. My family could live like this for years with no hardship - but we are not the norm. Most families are feeling the pinch and many are at risk of total financial failure....that has to be part of the equation.

Would like to know what your ( meaning the general 'your' referring to members on the forum) city/state/country is doing about re-opening (or re-closing)....we can conjecture about other areas but the one we KNOW is where we live. Are you seeing improvement/openings or not? Are people paying attention to mask and distancing rules - or not? Do you think those rules help - or not?

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Kay King

If you spent years building a profitable business, having children you are responsible for, buying your family home and cars for yourself and your spouse....you don't have the luxury of focusing ONLY on the pandemic.

I do not understand how someone decides the economic survival of others in different circumstances is irrelevant or unimportant. My family could live like this for years with no hardship - but we are not the norm. Most families are feeling the pinch and many are at risk of total financial failure....that has to be part of the equation.

Would like to know what your ( meaning the general 'your' referring to members on the forum) city/state/country is doing about re-opening (or re-closing)....we can conjecture about other areas but the one we KNOW is where we live. Are you seeing improvement/openings or not? Are people paying attention to mask and distancing rules - or not? Do you think those rules help - or not?

the worst thing that has happened for the future is the economy with the 6 months of the extra 2400 a month to the bottom third of earners .while they where not working ..they may not have paid rent with that money .. but many didn't save it .. they spent it somewhere .

if the economy is based off people spending money .you issue a currency that can only be spent .. to the people who are more likely to spend money .

[Profit Traveler]

Schools Reopened...Schools are now closing.

Who gets in pit full of rattlesnakes to sell some stuff, earn a living or get a degree?

The students who had a gathering and got kicked out..forfeited their $36,000 in tuition....what a crazy world we are living in. For now.

[socialentry]

I'm not sure how many of you speak several languages but have you noticed that most who oppose sanitary measures seem to have extremely similar style of argumentation?At least when they're not amongst fellow travelers.

I've listened to a few of the french ones and one of the recurrent pattern is asking a lot rhetorical questions whose answers are apparently so obvious that outright stating conclusions of their own almost seems to be beneath them.


And oh la la, all this populist angst and resentment...against the elites, the medias, academia, and even the Chinese dog chew toy industry.


With such great and implacable forces arrayed against them, if their goal is stress relief and avoiding fear, it seems rather counter-productive.

[Jeffery]

What were we talking about?

[DWolfe]

Originally Posted by Jeffery

What were we talking about?

Something about the Cornavirus. The virus will have passed but some will still be here later,debating opening business, wearing masks and motor cycle rallies. Starting to thinking watching paint dry is more interesting.

[Jeffery]

Originally Posted by Profit Traveler

I just do not understand how someone focuses on economics over competent strategy to just get rid of the dang thing. It kills.
<snip>

Because without serious focus on economics the end results are chaos, anarchy and civil disputes.

In the U.S. both economic relief and work on vaccines goes a long way to prevent chaos, anarchy and civil disputes.

Consider where the U.S, would be today if the decision makers had not provided economic relief: recession, martial law and God forbid > additional deaths not owed to the virus.

[Profit Traveler]

Originally Posted by Jeffery

Because without serious focus on economics the end results are chaos, anarchy and civil disputes.

In the U.S. both economic relief and work on vaccines goes a long way to prevent chaos, anarchy and civil disputes.

Consider where the U.S, would be today if the decision makers had not provided economic relief: recession, martial law and God forbid > additional deaths not owed to the virus.

That is the daily news. Thanks for pointing it out. That is where we are.

Originally Posted by DWolfe

Something about the Cornavirus. The virus will have passed but some will still be here later,debating opening business, wearing masks and motor cycle rallies. Starting to thinking watching paint dry is more interesting.

Math, Science, and Reality is not up for debate.If someone thinks the virus will pass by ignoring it they will not even be around when the paint is dry.

Some people fall off cliffs taking selfies...but they do not take anyone with them.

[DWolfe]

Originally Posted by Profit Traveler

Math, Science, and Reality is not up for debate.If you think the virus will pass by ignoring it you will not even be around when the paint is dry.

To bad you missed the point ! Try again not ignoring it at all. It will be here for a very long time. Even if they have a vaccine at one point it will take a long time to administer to the worlds population.

Covid 19 is lethal like a loaded gun, but in a decade from now it may gone but this thread will still be here with people debating the same things.

Tired of the doom and gloom here. Every Pandemic has eventually gone away. In 50 years from now it may be some other Plague.

[Kay King]

The students who had a gathering and got kicked out..forfeited their $36,000 in tuition..

I don't agree with forfeiting all the tuition but also don't believe they should have a full refund.


I am all for kicking them out. Students were told the rules - were asked to cooperate - and most are doing so. There is a small contingent that feel rules don't apply to them. I wonder if those are the same 'kids' whose parents always stepped in to fix any problems they had...


For some, this is their first lesson in real life. You choose the behavior, you choose the consequences.



At the same time I do not believe students required to take classes online should be paying full tuition. There are no rooms to clean, no order to maintain, larger classes are not only possible but smart. Getting harder to justify keep on all the administration, extra teachers, teachers aides, janitorial services, if students are not IN school.