[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by lanfear63

So, to save our species we might knock out or seriously deplete three other animal species. Thanks to the short sightedness of the powers that be. Always a price to pay for salvation. Not to say I would refuse to take it though as I want to continue living a few more years. I know, I'm just shellfish

I'm pretty sure that's how we got here in the first place.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

My Friend;

And
"That answer I gave is pretty idiotic. I sound like a lunatic".

It took a post for you to figure that out? Riffle has been telling you that for years.

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

One lucid thought, my Christmas wish.

Good luck with that wish. You might as well ask for world peace.

Originally Posted by mint tea

I wonder, what can say now that people, who convinced that the coronavirus is no more serious than the flu and should not be feared. Do they continue to adhere to their opinion? Some people are completely indifferent to everything unless it concerns them personally. They do not want to wear masks because they are uncomfortable, go to parties, do not follow basic safety rules. And when it turns out that they are sick, everyone around is to blame, but not them.

Some people just can't handle taking responsibility for making a mistake.
Genetic makeup - bad parenting, or maybe it's just that every generation is softer than the previous one.
Who knows? It's beyond my pay grade.

[kenmichaels]

GM called me last night to personally invite me one more time. I must have said no for 20 minutes.
As she was trying to cajole me, she tried to use the fact that she has other members agree to show up.

As soon as we hung up I called all of them and tried to educate them and then eventually just threatened them.
We will see what happens.

Meanwhile, GM is soooooo mad at me now.

I have to think of something extra nice that I can do for her to make up for this. I know I hurt her
feelings, but I'd rather have a pissed-off grandmother than a dead one.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by mint tea

I wonder, what can say now that people, who convinced that the coronavirus is no more serious than the flu and should not be feared. Do they continue to adhere to their opinion? Some people are completely indifferent to everything unless it concerns them personally. They do not want to wear masks because they are uncomfortable, go to parties, do not follow basic safety rules. And when it turns out that they are sick, everyone around is to blame, but not them.

It can seem that way, but I think your idea is flawed.

The people who think the virus is no different from the flu, that don't wear masks because they are uncomfortable, that don't follow safety rules....these people aren't selfish.

They are like everyone else...good people who care about others, and love their families.

They simply believe one side of the story, and not the other. They believe what their news sources tell them, just like we all do.

And they don't ignore the facts...they just never hear them from a source that they trust.

Anyway....a new day....

And speaking of a new day;

New daily cases of Covid;

September 20.....36,356
October 20..........60,607
November 20....198,585 New daily cases in the US.

Hospitalizations with positive cases; (Not daily numbers. Just currently hospitalized with Covid)

September 20 .......28,606
October 20.............39,303
November 20.........82,178 Hospitalized in the US.

Deaths in US from Covid (7 day running average)

September 20.......781
October 20............732
November 20.....1,962 Daily running 7 day average.

The daily death rate (7 day average) hasn't been that high since July 26th..

30-40% (I don't know exactly) of the US thinks masks are part of a devious plot.

Good thing a great vaccine is on the way.

I wonder which side will make the vaccine an evil plot?

Anyway, I'm taking the vaccine the day it's available. So is my wife. If we turn into lizards, I'll let you all know.

[lanfear63]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

GM called me last night to personally invite me one more time. I must have said no for 20 minutes.
As she was trying to cajole me, she tried to use the fact that she has other members agree to show up.

As soon as we hung up I called all of them and tried to educate them and then eventually just threatened them.
We will see what happens.

Meanwhile, GM is soooooo mad at me now.

I have to think of something extra nice that I can do for her to make up for this. I know I hurt her
feelings, but I'd rather have a pissed-off grandmother than a dead one.

Extraordinary force of will shown by grandma there. Playing the guilt trip so she can fulfil her evil agenda. I expect she's pissed as she bought all that food.

[lanfear63]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

It can seem that way, but I think your idea is flawed.

The people who think the virus is no different from the flu, that don't wear masks because they are uncomfortable, that don't follow safety rules....these people aren't selfish.

They are like everyone else...good people who care about others, and love their families.

They simply believe one side of the story, and not the other. They believe what their news sources tell them, just like we all do.

And they don't ignore the facts...they just never hear them from a source that they trust.

Anyway....a new day....

And speaking of a new day;

New daily cases of Covid;

September 20.....36,356
October 20..........60,607
November 20....198,585 New daily cases in the US.

Hospitalizations with positive cases; (Not daily numbers. Just currently hospitalized with Covid)

September 20 .......28,606
October 20.............39,303
November 20.........82,178 Hospitalized in the US.

Deaths in US from Covid (7 day running average)

September 20.......781
October 20............732
November 20.....1,962 Daily running 7 day average.

The daily death rate (7 day average) hasn't been that high since July 26th..

30-40% (I don't know exactly) of the US thinks masks are part of a devious plot.

Good thing a great vaccine is on the way.

I wonder which side will make the vaccine an evil plot?

Anyway, I'm taking the vaccine the day it's available. So is my wife. If we turn into lizards, I'll let you all know.

"Good thing a great vaccine is on the way.

I wonder which side will make the vaccine an evil plot?"

The vaccine is a US evil plot to rid the world of Horseshoe Crabs, you will know this if you read my post. So many men deny getting Crabs, now we are all going to be injected with them.

[lanfear63]

Vaccine from the UK, highly effective and much cheaper to produce, though not as effective as the US one, they hope to bring it up to the 90's by tweaking the dose.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55040635

[Kay King]

I wonder which side will make the vaccine an evil plot?"

Didn't Cuomo in NY already do that?

[Princess Balestra]

All I know is, sum days when I slip off my mask, my lipstick done smooshied all ovah my face like I dun srs kissin' time with a guy got a puppy's tongue grafted to the Lustspace Central database.

Tellya, the randomness of my roarshremark smooshola could mebbe inspire Stephen King to fictionalise a whole noo genre of mind-warpin' villain into our consciousnooses!

Hey, but we got wipes — an' I am adult enough to figure where lips end an' regulah flesh begins.

Jus' to check tho ... anywan else dowin' their masks in a panty wash?

I dunked evrythin' in my washbowl right out with detergent coulda sterilised Chris Hemsworth before he'd even slipped on his helmit — but now ima less choosy.

All invadahs togethah, I guess.

Coolest an' sweetest stuff now is watchin' and seekin' forward beyond all this.

Less'n this JOIM got supah spectaculah Destruction Powah blastin' outta its asshole, prolly the science guys got sum kinda handle on it.

For sure, COVID ain't rogue bugs bustin' outta space we don't got no ansahs for.

We gonna get to that place ... pandemic tamed.

An' I would wanna hope we emerge from outta alla this wishin' more to kiss an' less to smite.

Bcs that's what global JOIMS are for, ain't it?

Less'n they jus' in it for thumselves, the darn critters!

Hey, liss'n sweeties — we seen all kindsa opinyuwhaans down this thread as we been meetin' up togethah regardin' Discourse Topic Centrale ...

so what truths will persist beyond this momentary apocalypse?

I would not wish to walk noplace where unavoidable death gotta happen ...

but I nevah got smart enough to be a doctor ... or nowan doin' research on stuff gonna save lives.

But I trust them people exist ... an' they pashnit 'bout their stuff.

Vaccine gonna happen ... but mebbe not before Santa squoits abundant joy ovah the rooftops of the world with a decorative arrangement of holly and ivy slung cross his silver-bearded CHAAAPS.

Meantime, you gotta rest easy with whatevah is gowin' on kinda Planet Oithsum from day to day.

We mebbe been lame for too long 'bout people we don't know dyin' in countries we don't care about got dizzeezes with real stoopid names.

Fkr is on our doorstep now ... all ovah the planet ... so we gonna see slooshins.

Meantime, we jus' got smooshins. An' wash instructions.

"Lips kissed to mask for want of speak.
Baboon's ass visuals kinda freak."

(Remembah: alternative to a mask gonna save evrywan is a blindfold gonna benefit nowan.)

[1Bryan]

The hospital near me has super strict visitation rules. You can ONLY visit with a medical grade N95 mask on.

Not a surgical mask. Not a bandana or a cut up t-shirt or whatever.

That’s why lots of people think the mask thing is actually kinda silly. Because most super duper pro maskers --

Aren’t even wearing the right ones. And they aren’t wearing ‘em properly. Imagine a guy wears the wrong condom. And doesn't even put it on right. Then wonders how she got pregnant. Duh.

It’s not because they’re all conspiracy theorist Qanons.

There’s research that shows. “Face coverings” probably do very little to thwart Covid transmission.

Until you differentiate between mask types?

The mask conversation is actually pretty unscientific. On the “pro masker” side. It’s apples to oranges.

It’s similar with vaccines. Not all vaccines are the same. You can be pro-vaccine and still weary about one that’s rushed out and pharma companies have had their liability waived.

By all pre-Covid definition -- these are experimental vaccines. They skipped an entire phase of trial. And had their legal liability waived.

But you have to know the science of vaccines. Otherwise, you just think the crazy loonies are all waiting for Reptilians to take over.

One of the largest groups of growingly “anti-vaccine” people in the US --

Are high income and college educated. And Liberal.

Because they usually have a decent understanding of science. And understand that each vaccine is unique.

So each one potentially can have unique side effects.

They’re not anti-vaccine because they think Reptilian overlords are about to take over and blah blah blah.

And a lot of them are not actually anti-vaccine as much as they weigh each one out as the unique combination of chemicals they are.

To them. Some vaccines seem fine. Others do not. There are plenty of people in the world that DO see nuance.

And are self-aware.

To learn the other side -- you actually have to learn the other side. If you think it's all Qanons waiting for the day when the Reptilians show themselves --

You don't know the other side. Or the fact that there's actually not 2 sides.

There's a bunch.

P.S. A very recent poll with 4 options for answers showed that the majority of Americans are in the "maybe yes" and "maybe no" categories for the vaccine.

The way a lot of polls are "engineered" to produce results is to have only 2 options - yes/no ...

Because it drops the "maybes" out of the data.

That's why marketers who do silly yes/no polls for products --

Wind up wondering why so many said yes and nobody bought. By giving only 2 options, the only 2 outcomes are yes/no and it drops all the other data out.

Which, when done for certain purposes, is 100% intentional. Polls can become a propaganda tool very easily. Frank Luntz wrote a good book.

P.P.S. The best PR companies in the world were contracted at the beginning of the Pandemic.

Most people also don't know that. But some do. And they become skeptical. Of PR companies who have a goal.

And are extremely good at getting that goal.

It's still funny to me. When marketers are blind to marketing propaganda. That you can easily trace back to marketing and PR companies contracted to produce that marketing propaganda.

P.P.P.S. This should also give us all some pause. When politicians read from scripts. And then win awards for their TV performance --

Shouldn't we wonder?

It starts to sound like acting. And when you see politicians caught taking their mask off when the TV camera stops rolling ...

Like it's a prop ...

Haha.

[Jeffery]

Remember the good ol' days when you got the flu all you needed was..
a shot of Wild Turkey with some Vicks Nyquil and a good nights sleep?

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

The hospital near me has super strict visitation rules. You can ONLY visit with a medical grade N95 mask on.

Not a surgical mask. Not a bandana or a cut up t-shirt or whatever.

That’s why lots of people think the mask thing is actually kinda silly. Because most super duper pro maskers --

Aren’t even wearing the right ones. And they aren’t wearing ‘em properly. Imagine a guy wears the wrong condom. And doesn't even put it on right. Then wonders how she got pregnant. Duh.

The N95 masks prevent you breathing in the virus. That's why you have to wear that mask in hospitals. The other masks (except for bandanas) are very effective at preventing you from spreading the virus if you have it. But they aren't as effective keeping you from breathing in the virus. I'm talking about the cheap 3 ply hospital masks that we can all get at any store. The ones with the elastic that goes behind the ears.

That's why it's important for everyone to wear a mask in public, and not just some of us.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

P.S. A very recent poll with 4 options for answers showed that the majority of Americans are in the "maybe yes" and "maybe no" categories for the vaccine.

The way a lot of polls are "engineered" to produce results is to have only 2 options - yes/no ...

Because it drops the "maybes" out of the data.

I agree that polls that are looking for reality should have grades in opinions. And many polls are worded to strongly skew the results one way or the other.

But one reason we see such a variety of views on vaccines...is that the jury is still out on what political party will endorse vaccinating, and which one will take the opposing views.

Once the majority of the public knows what their group thinks, you'll see more polarized views on this, just like with masks.

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

That's why marketers who do silly yes/no polls for products --

Wind up wondering why so many said yes and nobody bought. By giving only 2 options, the only 2 outcomes are yes/no and it drops all the other data out.

Which, when done for certain purposes, is 100% intentional. Polls can become a propaganda tool very easily. Frank Luntz wrote a good book.

Big fan of Luntz's work. And if you only give two options, you'll only get one of two answers.

But you'll see, especially in political parties, there are eventually two main views, and they will oppose each other. Here's a "Luntz like example". One party calls them Riots. The other party calls them Protests. Same group. Different name. And now you have two views of the same people. The same activity. And one "News channel" only covers the shooting. And the other "News channel" only covers the violence and looting. And now we have two sides. Why? We are only given two choices.

Right now, you have two camps on masks. Nearly everyone in one political party hears about the flaws with mask wearing and the flaws in the data about mask wearing. Everyone in the other party hears about how they are necessary.

Of course, there is real expertise on this. Real science. Real testing. And it's available to anyone that looks for it.

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I agree that polls that are looking for reality should have grades in opinions. And many polls are worded to strongly skew the results one way or the other.

But one reason we see such a variety of views on vaccines...is that the jury is still out on what political party will endorse vaccinating, and which one will take the opposing views.

I think both see there's an illusion of 2 sides. What I think is different is this --

The 2 sides do NOT represent the bulk of the population. The fringes are not representative of the people.

Most of the "polarization" isn't even real. It's online echo chambers. It's manufactured television. It's propaganda posing as news articles.

Talk to people from Portland.

The protesting happened in a couple blocks or so.

Most of Portland wasn't out there in each other's faces. The fringes were. And a lot of those fringes weren't even from Portland.

They were bored suburbanites who haven't got anything to do but be mad they can't build a following on IG haha.

P.S. That's kinda my overall point. The polarization IS the propaganda. The overwhelming vast majority of the population ... isn't polarized.

Nuanced for sure. But not polarized.

P.P.S. On surgical masks, they are designed to prevent bacteria transmission during surgery. Not viral transmission.

Medical grade N95 are designed to prevent viral transmission.

Those are 2 very different things.

Your understanding is wrong. Surgical masks don't block anyone from breathing out virus. It's why a surgeon can't just don a mask and perform surgery when sick.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

P.P.S. On surgical masks, they are designed to prevent bacteria transmission during surgery. Not viral transmission.

Medical grade N95 are designed to prevent viral transmission.

Those are 2 very different things.

Your understanding is wrong. Surgical masks don't block anyone from breathing out virus. It's why a surgeon can't just don a mask and perform surgery when sick.

Everything you just said is true.

The surgical masks don't stop viruses. Viruses are far smaller that the pores in the mask. Tests show it. And that's the argument I hear, from the smartest people that are of that mind. Masks stop bacteria, but not viruses.

In tests, they use viruses (or particles that small) and they pass through a single layer of that filter very easily.

But those tests don't take into consideration two points.

1) Multiple layers don't have pores in the same location. So the viruses tend to get trapped between layers. But that isn't the main point.

2) We never just cough up viruses. We cough up saliva droplets, that contain the virus.

The droplets are very easily stopped by the surgical masks. It isn't perfect, but about 90% of any droplets are stopped by even a loose fitting mask...because the droplets get stuck to the mask, and don't try to follow an easier airstream around the mask (usually near the sides of the nose)

Another major benefit of these masks is that they reduce the distance your droplets (from a cough or sneeze) travel. Instead of 6-8 feet, if you have a mask on, the distance may be reduced to a couple of feet. Far better than not wearing a mask, when in a group. (assuming everyone wears one)

Masks are not 100%. But they certainly help curtail the transmission of the virus from one sneezer to another, if everyone uses them.

At least, this is the information I get when I got to the CDC website and read articles By Fouci and a few virologists.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Everything you just said is true.



Another major benefit of these masks is that they reduce the distance your droplets (from a cough or sneeze) travel. Instead of 6-8 feet, if you have a mask on, the distance may be reduced to a couple of feet. Far better than not wearing a mask, when in a group. (assuming everyone wears one)

Masks are not 100%. But they certainly help curtail the transmission of the virus from one sneezer to another, if everyone uses them.

At least, this is the information I get when I got to the CDC website and read articles By Fouci and a few virologists.

so your saying you are for passing laws and punishing people for not wearing masks ..

because that is the real point of division ..

when the vaccines are available .. there will be no division on them as 90 percent of people have no issue with vaccines .. in the US .. the division will come where the government try to mandate that people get vaccinated .. or mandate which of the several vaccines .. people have to get .

so are you for punishing people for not wearing masks .and making wearing mask the law .. so that people caught not wearing mask get charged with felonies or misdemeanors ..

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

I think both see there's an illusion of 2 sides. What I think is different is this --

The 2 sides do NOT represent the bulk of the population. The fringes are not representative of the people.

Most of the "polarization" isn't even real. It's online echo chambers. It's manufactured television. It's propaganda posing as news articles.

Yes. I agree with most of that.

Both sides have a lunatic fringe....a very vocal fanatical group that doesn't really represent the bulk of the people.

But the difference that I notice isn't so much one of belief, but one of being polite and having empathy for others. Most people don't sound like fanatics. And most people don't think that way.

When I talk about "Sides" (meaning two sides), I'm talking about the more normal people. It's more that they believe things about the "Others" that aren't true.

And I completely agree with "Most of the "polarization" isn't even real. It's online echo chambers. It's manufactured television. It's propaganda posing as news articles."

but where do people get their "news'? Half get it from Facebook, and Facebook feeds us what we like, not what's real. So we get the idea that what we are reading are mainstream articles...real news...and most of it isn't.

Take two sides of a debate, (or two political stances). There are degrees. Most people are nice, don't want to offend, and have degrees of certainty about what their group says.

Anywhere from "I don't think masks stop viruses" to "Masks change you into lizard people". Even though these people's views differ wildly, they are still on the same side of a view. They very by education, fanaticism, character, intelligence.....but they all share one thing in common. The other side is wrong.

Why? Because they all see the positions of the other side in a skewed perspective, mostly given by all media...and then there is the echo chamber that we are all in.

We are constantly being fed "news" as though there are two sides to every view. Why? Because it's easy to understand, and a common enemy feeds TV, radio, and online audience growth.

The nuanced person of taste, discernment...who studies issues from several different angles? Those people exist...and they are rare. Maybe I think they are more rare than you do. That's a guess. And these people are fighting against the gravity of daily immersion of Either/or opinions.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Odahh

so your saying you are for passing laws and punishing people for not wearing masks ..

My God! Thank you, thank you, thank you! Please don't take this personally. But your question "So you're saying...." is a classic example of Straw man arguing. You took something I said, changed it to something else, and are now arguing the point you just invented...and ascribed to me.

"so your saying you are for passing laws and punishing people for not wearing masks .. " is a perfect construction of a classic straw man argument. It has nothing to do with what I just said. But you asked the question as though it does, forcing me to defend a position...I didn't even have. Again, thank you. I mean no personal offence, but I'm really excited that someone gave such a perfect example.

Anyway...

No. Although I would understand why there would be such laws. Personally I wouldn't want it to be law, but rather a choice, as a part off our duty to safeguard each other. But punish people? Probably not. They would just rebel, and riot. And we have enough of that, I think.

Other countries made it law, and it worked well. But I think our culture wouldn't stand for it.

.

Originally Posted by Odahh

the division will come where the government try to mandate that people get vaccinated .. or mandate which of the several vaccines .. people have to get .

I suspect you might be right about that. Actually, pretty insightful. Probably more likely than when I said ".is that the jury is still out on what political party will endorse vaccinating, and which one will take the opposing views."

Originally Posted by Odahh

so are you for punishing people for not wearing masks .and making wearing mask the law .. so that people caught not wearing mask get charged with felonies or misdemeanors ..

Again, not really. And to be honest, by the time a law like that passed, we would all be vaccinated anyway. This too shall pass.

Again, I don't really mean any personal insult, but when I read the first line of your post, I was absolutely giddy that I found such a perfect example of something I often talk about.
Want a hug? I want a hug.

[Odahh]

claude great response ..

who gets credit for that vaccine will be the political issue ..not weather to get it or not ..and i am not going to go into detail and risk getting another thread removed from this thread ..

what will become a political issue from camps in both side will be vaccinations of children ..

i am highly pessimistic so i think anyone coming against vaccinations for adults..just want less people head of them when they go to get a vaccine ..

id rather have the option when i need a new id to walk into a government office with just the fee .. put my hand on a hand scanner and look into a facial recognition device .. instead of need 4 other pices of documentation you almost cant get if you have no ID ..

but American have this antiquated notion of privacy ..

[Profit Traveler]

Amazing to see so many comments with politically leaning content after returning from a BanCation for politically leaning comments.

But it is a new day.

There are now talks of a PLAN.

What a concept.

Here in a place full of Marketers who analyze every detail when it comes to making or losing money this 37 page thread has more than a few "unscientific" moments.

1 + 2 = 3. Is that debatable? Does it matter where someone got their news from?…is it dancing on both sides of a stage?

Death threats for people that disagree with you is not an opinion, it is not a "political" party/side, it is definition of a terrorist.

We survived COVID so far, but many will not. I personally prospered during this time, I think alot of people have, that were determined to.

I sense a sigh of relief these days. Could be Vaccines on the horizon could be the fact that there is a plan and it involves a scientific approach.

At this point in the COVID era I wish everyone HEALTH and WEALTH.

Both are possible if we are focused (with action) on that.

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Other countries made it law, and it worked well. But I think our culture wouldn't stand for it.

Name one country that has rolled out mass vaccines and eradicated Covid.

Not a single one exists.

I'll wait. Or do you mean masks?

Because still. Not a single country eradicated Covid via masks.

[lanfear63]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

Name one country that has rolled out mass vaccines and eradicated Covid.

Not a single one exists.

I'll wait. Or do you mean masks?

Because still. Not a single country eradicated Covid via masks.

Ever considered how much worst it would be if their had been no masks?

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Ever considered how much worst it would be if their had been no masks?

Hi,

We can't prove what didn't happen.

But we can do this. We can look at what surgical masks are actually designed for.

It's to prevent bacterial transmission during surgery.

They were never designed to stop viral transmission.

Go to R/Nurses on Reddit. Find out how nurses worldwide panic when they run out of proper N95 masks and are forced to wear surgical masks.

Why would they panic like that?

Are they all Qanons?

Maybe. But probably not. They probably understand bacterial transmission versus viral transmission.

And which masks are designed for what purpose.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

Name one country that has rolled out mass vaccines and eradicated Covid.

Not a single one exists.
I'll wait. Or do you mean masks?

Because still. Not a single country eradicated Covid via masks.

.

Thank you.

I was responding to a post about masks, not vaccines. Obviously, nobody has a vaccine yet (at least not for world distribution).

And I didn't say that Covid was eradicated, by masks or anything else.



You are arguing a claim that I didn't make.

I said "Other countries made it law, and it worked well." I was obviously referring to masks, because the entire paragraph was about masks, responding to a post about masks.

I said "It worked well". By that I mean it had a strong positive effect on the total of deaths and hospitalizations.

A useful way to win an argument is to argue the points that were actually made.

If you would like me to list a few countries that mandated masks and kept the cases and deaths to a minimum, I'd be happy to list them.

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

Hi,
Go to R/Nurses on Reddit. Find out how nurses worldwide panic when they run out of proper N95 masks and are forced to wear surgical masks.

Why would they panic like that?
.

They panic because they work in an environment where the virus is in the air...and everywhere. And the surgical masks don't effectively stop the virus from being breathed in. They help, (because of multiple layers), but they aren't even 90% effective when inhaling.. And in a hospital, just 1% of the virus getting through is too much.

In public, the surgical masks are effective in keeping the virus from being being spread as much, when you have the virus and sneeze or cough. Because the virus, when you cough or sneeze, is bound to small droplets of saliva.

Exhaling...surgical masks help.. (Not 100%, but they certainly help)

Inhaling...surgical masks are less effective.

Remember;

Exhaling...surgical masks help. (Not 100%, but they certainly help)

Inhaling...surgical masks are less effective.

You did make a good point in that surgical masks aren't made to stop viruses. They are made to stop germs and bacteria.

Even then, they are really only effective in stopping the bacteria from a doctor's exhale, not stop bacteria from being inhaled. But they do stop most of the droplets of saliva, when you exhale. And they reduce the distance any escaped saliva travels during a sneeze or cough. And that's why virologists recommend the surgical masks for the public.

Am I repeating myself? I feel like I'm repeating myself.

[1Bryan]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

You are arguing a claim that I didn't make.

I said "Other countries made it law, and it worked well." I was obviously referring to masks, because the entire paragraph was about masks, responding to a post about masks.

I said "It worked well". By that I mean it had a strong positive effect on the total of deaths and hospitalizations.

A useful way to win an argument is to argue the points that were actually made.

If you quoted my whole post, I asked if you meant masks.

I got my education on masks from people working in one of the best Cancer Centers in the Northeast.

Surgical mask manufacturers cannot legally make any claims about viral transmission. Not even a reduction claim.

If you were to write copy selling surgical masks and put a claim of viral reduction on it, legal would hand it back to you.

It wouldn't run.

There's a reason for that. Am I repeating myself? Yes I am. Viral transmission and Bacterial transmission are 2 very different things.

What I'm saying is this --

The claim that surgical masks reduce Covid transmission, is not a claim that can be made legally by manufacturers of said masks.

And people trained in the science of masks and the different types and their uses ...

Don't use Surgical masks to reduce viral transmission.

But I'm done on masks.

[Kay King]

I don't remember who posted the story about the nurse claiming patients were denying covid with their dying breath. It was a twitter story that CNN picked up - I remember saying 'patients on ventilators aren't talking' but now there is new info on the nurse.

No other nurses in her area support her claim - she has now said she was referring to 'general things' patients said. CNN ran with the claim and featured the nurse in an interview - after see tweets she had made....and it turns out there is no truth to the story....at all. Frustrating that there are no real journalist any more - the news comes from twitter.....wow.

The nurse says now she was 'generalizing' - other nurses say she was making it up entirely. It's good to follow up on these 'stories' because so many don't seem to be true when you take a hard look at the facts.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

. Viral transmission and Bacterial transmission are 2 very different things.

And stopping viruses and stopping the drops of saliva that contain the virus...are two different things.

That's why virologist are recommending wearing these masks. Not for nurses in hospitals, but for the general public.

Originally Posted by 1Bryan

If you quoted my whole post, I asked if you meant masks.
.

Fair enough. I changed the quote to include what you said.

[socialentry]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Ask anyone "How well do you think masks stop the virus?"
...

Based on their answer to this one question,...I can make a few educated guesses about that person.. I have a good idea about their education, level of religiosity, political party, what news they watch, what they think about racism, abortion, evolution, health care and more, legalizing marihuana, and more.

Can we test you?

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by socialentry

Can we test you?

It wouldn't be much of a test. I said "Make a few educated guesses".

And if I did it on this forum, it would devolve into a mindless squabble. If I said "There's an 80% chance that he's a republican/democrat" that will generate an argument .


If you ask someone "How well do you think masks stop the virus?". they will answer with more than a "Good" or "Bad". They will explain their answer. They will give several reasons. Biases will become obvious. In a few minutes, you can tell pretty well the direction they are going, and what leads them in that direction.

I'd be able to give guesses like I mentioned, just like anyone here.. I might be 65% right, if taken as a whole. I think many people here could get 65% right. If I saw them when I asked the question, I might get it 80% right. That's a guess.

That isn't a special gift. Many people here could do the same thing. Anyone who deals with the public every day can do the same thing. A few here could probably do it better than I can.

I think you would do about as well as I would.


Added later; The reason I chose the question "How well do you think masks stop the virus?" is because it's not a Yes or No question. It requires a little thought. It gets an explanation, not just a one word answer.

If I asked the question "Do you think masks work?", I would get far less information.

[Profit Traveler]

Where I am now it is mandatory Face Masks but also Visors as well.

Masks mandatory everywhere public, but also Visors if you want to get in the Malls or ride a bus.

I do not really mind but sometimes you leave the visor and have to buy another or go back to get it.


This is a tricky time. Some things seemingly close to normal but we are technically or safely far from it.

Most places are open but still a curfew, places like a massage salon of course not open.

But gym is open, the one I like to go to has lots of windows, and even a balcony to do some people watching and get some fresh air.

No one wears a mask inside gym because it is big time ventilation of fresh air and all the equipment has been measured for social distance.

I normally go in around noon.....usually empty or close to it. They take lunch time seriously.

But once I went at 8am and this is more older crowd and I walk in and these mostly obese and older people have closed all the windows and close the door to the balcony.

I just smiled and opened them all and said it's a pandemic and we are the high riskers!

You should have saw the looks I got.

Last thing I ever want to do is make waves while visiting another Country but I do put LIVING as a top priority.


They let me have my wish but I will never go back in the morning let them enjoy their few drops of sweat in the pursuit of health while risking their entire survival.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

I don't remember who posted the story about the nurse claiming patients were denying covid with their dying breath. It was a twitter story that CNN picked up - I remember saying 'patients on ventilators aren't talking' but now there is new info on the nurse.

No other nurses in her area support her claim - she has now said she was referring to 'general things' patients said. CNN ran with the claim and featured the nurse in an interview - after see tweets she had made....and it turns out there is no truth to the story....at all. Frustrating that there are no real journalist any more -

Honestly, I think the journalist did their job. They got an interesting first person story. The woman got on TV and told her experience. Later we found out that it wasn't true. But that just means she lied, not that the journalist lied.

But I really dislike one other part of it. The story was a compelling emotional story...that strongly pointed to a political stance. It was misrepresenting the reality. It painted a picture that many people were denying Covid, while they were dying of it.

Does it happen? Maybe occasionally. Maybe never. I have no idea. Nurses do. And we have to rely on them to tell the truth.

I watch MSNBC, CNN, and FOX. All of them put on first person stories that are either outright fabrications or heavily biased. And some are purposely edited to tell a lie, even though the person quoted told the truth.

You can still watch the Evening news on the main channels. But the "opinion channels"? It's almost all propaganda with small portions of real news.

A real news channel (or newspaper ) would immediately print/post a retraction, and make the nurse's lie a story.

[Profit Traveler]

There has always been propaganda in news and bias as well. This Corona Virus is no exception

I guess I am biased against people that are biased. Because they will use any authority they have to forward their own agenda.

One can say adhere to the rules and that same person can be spouting again and again that the people would not tolerate a lockdown. For rules or not?..make up your mind.

I am thinking at this point why not everyone opt for the extremes for a short time to avoid exponentially harmful consequences in the long run.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Honestly, I think the journalist did their job. They got an interesting first person story. The woman got on TV and told her experience. Later we found out that it wasn't true. But that just means she lied, not that the journalist lied.

But I really dislike one other part of it. The story was a compelling emotional story...that strongly pointed to a political stance. It was misrepresenting the reality. It painted a picture that many people were denying Covid, while they were dying of it.

Does it happen? Maybe occasionally. Maybe never. I have no idea. Nurses do. And we have to rely on them to tell the truth.

I watch MSNBC, CNN, and FOX. All of them put on first person stories that are either outright fabrications or heavily biased. And some are purposely edited to tell a lie, even though the person quoted told the truth.

You can still watch the Evening news on the main channels. But the "opinion channels"? It's almost all propaganda with small portions of real news.

A real news channel (or newspaper ) would immediately print/post a retraction, and make the nurse's lie a story.

Opinion channels, bobbleheads, fake news (real-world and virtual), as well as the apparent fact that a huge amount of people can't tell the difference world over, might be one of humanity's greatest mistakes.

Also, try watching PBS, the BBC world news, and others are more or less centered on facts and, when they interview someone about their opinion it's usually apparent.

[Kay King]

What the 'journalist' did was take a comment from TWITTER and fail to verify any part of that story before turning it into a 'news segment'. So, no, I don't agree they did their job.

The story was a compelling emotional story.

which is why the 'reporter' used it. But when simple questions were asked it quickly became evident it was not true.


who, what, when, where and how.....are the questions reporters are taught to ask.... Maybe in this age of 'social' media the phrase needs to be


who, what, when, where and how did you verify it....

[LaCasaDeReyes]

I agree, i know several friends who have started businesses this year and they are doing well.

[1Bryan]

Network news is even iffy.

Example -- There have been anti-lockdown protests across the world. Even in countries that are used as examples of having a "better behaved" population. Plenty in Europe. But also in Asia. And South America.

Yet they give it almost no attention on the Evening news.

Would people question the narrative that only "deplorables" protest lockdowns if they knew that these protests are happening all around the world?

Maybe.

One stereotype about Americans that does kinda hold true. Most have very little awareness of the news from the rest of the world.

So if the news they watch omits the protests around the world ... and they hear constant praise for how these populations all gladly accept lockdowns ...

You end up with people telling you that everyone in X country is good with lockdowns.

Even tho the protests prove otherwise.

It's the omission that gets tricky and works super duper well.

Like there were anti-lockdown protests --

Where a good portion of the crowd was diverse and wearing masks. Yet the main picture news networks used --

The people weren't diverse and weren't wearing masks.

What does that do?

Most people assume that only certain people were at that protest. The narrative has to be pushed. And so pictures get cropped strategically.

Network news, according to former employees and journalists -- get talking points just like Cable does.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

What the 'journalist' did was take a comment from TWITTER and fail to verify any part of that story before turning it into a 'news segment'. So, no, I don't agree they did their job.

Kay; I didn't know the reporter took it straight from TWITTER. You have my permission to beat me soundly.

Last night I thought about this a little.

I can see lots of people, as they are admitted to the hospital, and the doctors says "You have Covid"...saying something like "I don't think so. I don't think it's real".

Patients often diagnose their own illnesses, and the doctors have to explain that it's something else.

But once they are in the ICU, I can't imagine anyone even discussing it. How would they even have the energy? You can't breath, you're afraid of dying..

That hardly seems the time to argue a diagnosis.

And how would the nurse even get "It isn't Covid" from a dying person?

What would she have to say to a very sick patient?

"Well? Do you believe it's Covid NOW?".

After some thought, I think the story just falls apart.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

PBS, the BBC world news, .

During the day, my wife listens to PBS, and we watch BBC more than the other channels.

We assume BBS is more straight news because it isn't centered in the US and less affected by political stances.

My wife loves Rachel Maddow. Truthfully, she's a gifted communicator. And she's obviously highly intelligent. But even so, you can see the slant in the stories. The obligatory bias.

I watch CNN when Anderson Cooper is on. But again, I can see the bias (maybe less than on MSNBC)

And after my wife goes to bed, I watch FOX. It's like we live on two completely different planets. FOX has a couple of real reporters. But I watch Shannon Bream at 11PM. So I'm getting the full blast of their particular brand of bias.

It's very easy to see why this country is completely divided. We are being fed two different realities with a hose, neither of which is sharing the complete reality. But the majority of us think one of them is.

[kursat]

I have been watching Dr. John Campbell's channel daily since last February. He always has been factful and only reports what is out there to help save people. This last video might be a good explanation of why the older populations are so much more affected. Here is the youtube link to it

https://youtu.be/zdAPgglDJAU

[Profit Traveler]

Jon Stewart, a freaking comedian, did more fact checking on daily issues than any entity I know of. Trevor Noah took over the mantle and the show is still infotaining but not on the scale of Stewart. Miss that guy.


Kids today really have to "consider the source". But they have proven to be more detail focused than I ever imagined. They used Tik Tok platform like a powerful interactive news agency.


I think we strayed from credibility and almost with direct intent but on track to get some of it back in regards to this pandemic.

[kenmichaels]

Spanish flu killed 600k in the USA over a three-year time span.

Covid is at 260k deaths within ten or 12months, depending on your viewpoint.

I think that number is low by about 30 or 40k.

Our modern medicine, doctors, education, basically everything we have is a hundred years more advanced; better. Yet, our current death rate is about halfway to the Spanish flu number in a third of the time. And people are still running around like this is no big deal.

What a mess.

Stay safe everyone and enjoy your family. - Gobble gobble.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Profit Traveler

Kids today really have to "consider the source". But they have proven to be more detail focused than I ever imagined. They used Tik Tok platform like a powerful interactive news agency.

Teaching my kid that youtubers, in game connections and tv celebrities are NOT his friends has been one of the longest, hardest things to teach and I'm not completley convinced that he gets it 100% yet.

[Kay King]

That has been posted multiple times in this thread - but what point is made? History shows the spanish flu timeline was feb 1918 to april 1920 - and a likely reason for the rapid spread of the pandemic were troop movements (WWI).


We are less than one year into this pandemic - and already have vaccines that will begin distribution in December. This is not anything close to the Spanish Flu - but looking at the news and the fear....can you imagine how bad it was back then? The death rate was 10% - we aren't close to that nor have we been, thank goodness.

It is estimated that about 500 million people or one-third of the world's population became infected with this virus. The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States.

In 1918 the world population was about 1.8 billion
World population today is about 7.7 billion


In 1818 the US population was about 103.2 million
Today the US population is about 330 million


If this pandemic were as bad as the one in 1918 - there would be over 6 million deaths worldwide instead of 1.4+ million. IN the US, there would be 1.3+ million deaths at this point - rather than 268k.



This pandemic is bad - but it is not as bad as it was in 1918.

[Claude Whitacre]

Originally Posted by Kay King

We are less than one year into this pandemic - and already have vaccines that will begin distribution in December. This is not anything close to the Spanish Flu - but looking at the news and the fear....can you imagine how bad it was back then? The death rate was 10% - we aren't close to that nor have we been, thank goodness.

Other things to consider...

In 1918 there were far more people working in agriculture, fewer (as a percentage) working in cities.

Part of the reason the death rate was so high, was that there were no antibiotics to fight secondary infections. There was far less known about the way these viruses spread. People were generally less healthy than they are now.....but less fat. (as a percentage of population)

Maybe the death rate would be 10% if we were back in 1919, because of the disadvantages in technology and treatment. Air conditioning was invented, but not yet in wide spread use. It wasn't in homes yet.

Some of these factors (and I'm sure many more) can either point to this being a worse pandemic, or not as bad.

I'm not sure it matters much...which is worse. We are living now.

And so....

Deaths yesterday in US .....2,284. 7 day running average of 1,642. Not quite a record.

In hospitals with Covid yesterday....88,080. A record. The record before was 59,269 on July 26th.

Cases now, at a 7 day running average of 172,000. That's more than 2.5 times the previous peak (7 day running average) of 66,297 on July 25th.

Millions of people flew across state lines to be with family this Thanksgiving. Maybe we'll have a real surge by Christmas, maybe not.

Predictions aren't facts. That rightly gets pointed out here.

Most of my friends, and many people on TV were predicting that the pandemic would disappear on November 4th.

The very good news is that the CDC now says that distribution of the vaccine will start in just a week or two. At first to health care workers, and then to the next in line who need it most.

In a few months, I hear (from what I think of as credible sources) , the vaccine will be available to all of us.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. And we are very near the end.

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Kay King

That has been posted multiple times in this thread - but what point is made? .

Since you asked so nicely.

I woke up to to the info that I know another covid fatality. I also know people in the ICU.

...And the supreme court set a precedent that's going to cause more spread.

If I have to try saying the same thing a thousand different ways for just one person to see things from a different perspective, then I'm going to.

That one person might save a life or a string of lives, who knows, maybe even mine...enough people who used to work for me still frequent this board and have google alerts set to ping them whenever I post and those people live here, by me.

So, what's your point? Many times when I read your posts about covid, I get the feeling you are passively aggressively negging the mask and the entire covid situation in general and I think that's dangerous. I haven't said anything out of respect,
becuase I think everyone is entitled to their opinion - even when I don't, agree with them.

From the way I read that post, it felt like your entire intent is to get me to shut up.

[Karen Burton]

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Teaching my kid that youtubers, in game connections and tv celebrities are NOT his friends has been one of the longest, hardest things to teach and I'm not completley convinced that he gets it 100% yet.

This has been one of the huge challenges this year - getting kids to be tech aware ina. world where tech is only thing they can do

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

In a few months, I hear (from what I think of as credible sources) , the vaccine will be available to all of us.

First, I wish I could believe that.

Second, "In a few" (IMHO) is most likely going to take up to a year for the average person to get it.


Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it's only 6 months before everyone, including children, can get the vaccine. Well, more than just you and I are going to have to take it for it to be effective, and from what I can tell, that's not necessarily going to happen. Everyone I know has said, "yup ill take it...after six or so months of letting everyone else be a guinea pig".

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

There is light at the end of the tunnel. And we are very near the end.

I agree it's fantastic news, and we are maybe near the end, but this is not the time to relax one's guard. The night is always darkest just before dawn, and that's usually when the bad stuff happens. For instance, do you know how many drug trials fail in the very last steps of the process? From what I understand, more fail, then come to market. Meaning, we don't really know if we actually have a vaccine yet. We are still best-guessing that it's all going to work out.

I don't know about you, but I have been on this planet long enough to see that things rarely go as planned, especially during an emergency.

I always hope for the best but prepare for the worst and it's looking to me that I need to prepare for another year to a year and a half of uncertainty.

Edit: Here is a more chilling thought for me, where I live, people don't believe covid is real, or if real, dangerous.
Since Covid has become politically weaponized (all sides are doing it.) I'm going to guess that roughly half of the USA feels the same way and covid isn't enough of a concern to get vaccinated.

So if off the TOP half are not going to take it...Ruh rough shaggy.

[Kay King]

Sorry you lost someone - I had a old friend die of covid 2 weeks ago. She and her husband were both in ICU - he survived. Very hard for their son - who is a doctor.

I'm sure it seems I'm all over the place in this long running thread...but it's typical of how my mind works. I usually see both sides of an argument...and sometimes I change sides if it makes sense to me. Even when I think someone is totally wrong in how they view an issue - I can almost always understand why they believe as they do. It's why I don't get too passionate over political rhetoric or religion or dozens of other issues - the interest for me is not in defending my own view but in thinking about how others see the same issue from a different perspective.

When it comes to masks - I wear them because we've been asked to and hopefully it does help prevent covid spread. At the same time, I don't like 'mask police' any more than I like those people who think rules don't apply to them.

I don't believe everything we've been told...my state has had mask mandate for some time and where I live almost everyone I see wears masks (wasn't true right at first). Social distancing is also practiced...and it can't hurt. I question how much it helps as the numbers here just keep rising. But then, if it helps somewhat, it's still worth doing.

I think the 'experts' are doing everything they know how to do - but I think there's a lot we don't know yet. I don't fully trust the numbers because I personally know of more exceptions than cases of covid. The old friend from years ago is the first person I have personally known to die of this pandemic.

My family is fortunate - I know that. However, I also think it's positively stupid to tell the public to take care - to shut down businesses and ruin families financially - and then ignore hundreds or thousands of 'protestors' and let them do what they please. Just in the past 2 weeks several state govs/mayors have gone to vacation spots, big dinners, celebratory parties, out to restaurants, etc. They are telling their constituents to stay in - not have family in for the holiday...limiting the number of people in your HOME - but it doesn't apply to them. Is it surprising some people stop believing in the 'warnings'?

The CDC is quoted over and over - but they have SAID clearly that kids are safest in school - that transmission in schools is very low. Yet schools are closed in many areas. We see the public service commercials with mom or dad helping their kids with online schools. A friend who teaches fourth grade in a very good school system says what she hears during 'class online' are parents shouting at kids and each other...so many interruptions around the child that he/she can't focus on the class. That's in an upper middle class area - can you imagine what some of the children in not-so-nice areas are dealing with?

In a thread like this I don't think it's important that all agree - or that you prove your point. I think it's important to think about the various viewpoints and keep your mind open to the possibilities. It's important to realize people see things differently and that's ok.

Since Covid has become politically weaponized (all sides are doing it.) I'm going to guess that roughly half of the USA feels the same way and covid isn't enough of a concern to get vaccinated.

I hope that's not the case but could happen. I didn't take regular flu shots myself for many years...had never had the flu so why worry about it? Everyone I know would line up today for covid shots if they could. Well, almost everyone - I know 2-3 characters that wouldn't but that's on them. If people are vaccinated and stay healthy while those not vaccinated continue to contract covid...the resistance will fade. It will take months to vaccinate everyone who wants it - by that time the 'numbers' should be such that resistance will be reduced. UNLESS some states try to mandate vaccinations - that would be a big mistake IMO.

[tagiscom]

Same old argument, one side wants to believe in some institutions online since they have a vested interest in other subjects they cover, even though the other subjects they cover are flawed, and anyone could easily find out the truth of the matter, without blindly accepting their opinions.

And as such, ignore the source as unreliable.

As for masks, we are headed into hot weather here, and l have so far today seen one woman fall over or possibly pass out due to mask wearing inside a shopping ctr, (two police officers where there) and l also overheard another get pissed about having to drink more due to higher humidity by wearing one.

We are going to have high heatstroke cases this summer if this dubious rule doesn't get trashed, (we have had almost one month of no new cases or deaths).

I tried to do a search on Google and got the usual one sided, "masks work" results, which is the trap most get into, or they assume Google gives results that are correct, or they are not bias; but l have other sources.

The New England Journal of Medicine is the world's leading medical journal and website. Founded in 1812, and owned by the Massachusetts Medical Society, NEJM publishes peer-reviewed research and interactive clinical content for physicians, educators and the global medical community.

So going by the actual best medical advise on the planet, and what they say about masks...

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.

And remember this is the worlds most respected and prestigious medical institution available. So they don't work, and it is more of a case of "groan, well l can't say it here.

Some studies are iffy and others more robust, and the iffy ones tend to end up on sites, that have other iffy data.

When some say "the best advise possible, but refuse to give the source" then they are typically referring to a source which covers other subjects they are invested in, so everything the site has is true.

This is the best advise available, and it clearly says that outside of hospitals and strict protocols, they should be ditched...

[kenmichaels]

Originally Posted by Kay King

... In a thread like this I don't think it's important that all agree - or that you prove your point. I think it's important to think about the various viewpoints and keep your mind open to the possibilities. It's important to realize people see things differently and that's ok....

Posts like that are why I have always admired your opinion.

[Odahh]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Sorry


I hope that's not the case but could happen. I didn't take regular flu shots myself for many years...had never had the flu so why worry about it? Everyone I know would line up today for covid shots if they could. Well, almost everyone - I know 2-3 characters that wouldn't but that's on them. If people are vaccinated and stay healthy while those not vaccinated continue to contract covid...the resistance will fade. It will take months to vaccinate everyone who wants it - by that time the 'numbers' should be such that resistance will be reduced. UNLESS some states try to mandate vaccinations - that would be a big mistake IMO.

that is the divide .before covid .. the people against vaccinations where split equally between both sides ..

i'll get vaccinated as soon as i can .. but i am 42 so it might be march or later before i get vaccinated . no a high risk group ..

i think priorities should be everon over 55 .. gets vaccines first .. then let younger people get vaccinated as they wish.. and as i have mention .. require documentation of vaccination to get on a plane ..