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Are The Glory Days Over?

by Ryan David
136 replies
A few years back (2006), I heard Rich Schefren say to Stompernet guests that the internet is going to turn out to be just like 900 numbers or infomercials (Dan Kennedy says the same thing). Since he was talking to an SEO audience, his advice was to bootstrap the business through any means possible but to make sure you build a viable business that is not reliant on cheap/free traffic to sustain itself.

Do you think it is harder or easier for newbies these days? To me, it looks harder overall. The tools are better and there is more training. But back when I started in 2005, SEO was much easier, PPC was easier, you can get by with a crappy looking site, etc. I started with $30, built my site, and kept upping my investments as time went on. Eventually, my sites were doing near 7 figures per year. Now I've noticed that any new competitor has to come in at a much higher level than when I started. I wonder if I would be able to replicate that success if I was starting today.

What do you think? Are the barriers to entry larger now?
#days #glory
  • Profile picture of the author Young Financier
    I haven't been in the game that long, but I'll stick around to see what the veteran IMers think. I wanna hear about this....
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      I've been at this for over 9 years. Yes, it's much harder, even for myself. Things
      that used to work are now near useless. Google has made article marketing a
      shell of what it once was. Article directories are near worthless except for
      syndication, and you now have to write minimum 1,000 word articles to even
      have a prayer to be syndicated.

      If I had to start all over now, I'd probably just go out and get a job. Seriously.
      To truly startup an Internet business worth spit, you need to invest mega bucks
      because the cheapo methods of old no longer work.

      God, I'm glad I'm reaching retirement age soon.
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      • Profile picture of the author trade4861
        I think article directories still work if you choose the right one. Personally, I don't look at just pagerank or Alexa rank of an article directory to determine which I submit to. I look at the editorial guidelines, the percentage of dominate pages vs non-dominate pages (how many keywords does a site rank for vs how many pages they have). This quick and simple calculation will give you an idea how well pagerank flows thorough the site and how reputable they are. In fact, this applies for any site, not just an article directory.

        You cant ever expect to gain a pagerank with Goarticles.... that website is crap! Personally I wouldn't even submit to Ezinearticles. There are much better directories out there.


        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I've been at this for over 9 years. Yes, it's much harder, even for myself. Things
        that used to work are now near useless. Google has made article marketing a
        shell of what it once was. Article directories are near worthless except for
        syndication, and you now have to write minimum 1,000 word articles to even
        have a prayer to be syndicated.

        If I had to start all over now, I'd probably just go out and get a job. Seriously.
        To truly startup an Internet business worth spit, you need to invest mega bucks
        because the cheapo methods of old no longer work.

        God, I'm glad I'm reaching retirement age soon.
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      • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


        If I had to start all over now, I'd probably just go out and get a job. Seriously.
        To truly startup an Internet business worth spit, you need to invest mega bucks
        because the cheapo methods of old no longer work.

        God, I'm glad I'm reaching retirement age soon.

        Then why does your sig file refer to the $16,000 you make in one month? It sounds like you're killing it?
        Signature
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Marhelper View Post

          Then why does your sig file refer to the $16,000 you make in one month? It sounds like you're killing it?
          Your question deserves an honest answer. The system, which you really can
          only use once or twice a year, is one that I no longer have any interest in
          using. It's just too much damn work and if you read the sales page, I specifically
          say this is a LOT of work. I am totally up front about it. I'm 55 years old and
          just don't want to work that hard anymore. Can you blame me?

          Besides, even if I did all that work (again, it only works about twice a year)
          I'm looking at a $32,000 income (more or less) for a whole year. For some,
          that's great. For me, right now at this time in my life, not worth it. If I'm going
          to put in all THAT work, I want more than $32,000.

          Again, this isn't a business model. It's a way to make some quick cash.

          I want a business model. I want to set up a site, let it run on its own, and
          have the money just roll in after everything is in place. But that takes even
          MORE work. And like I said, I'm 55 and looking to retire.

          Does this answer your question? If not, I'm sorry. It's the best answer I can
          give you.
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          • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
            Yeah, I respect your honesty and understand what you're saying.


            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Your question deserves an honest answer. The system, which you really can
            only use once or twice a year, is one that I no longer have any interest in
            using. It's just too much damn work and if you read the sales page, I specifically
            say this is a LOT of work. I am totally up front about it. I'm 55 years old and
            just don't want to work that hard anymore. Can you blame me?

            Besides, even if I did all that work (again, it only works about twice a year)
            I'm looking at a $32,000 income (more or less) for a whole year. For some,
            that's great. For me, right now at this time in my life, not worth it. If I'm going
            to put in all THAT work, I want more than $32,000.

            Again, this isn't a business model. It's a way to make some quick cash.

            I want a business model. I want to set up a site, let it run on its own, and
            have the money just roll in after everything is in place. But that takes even
            MORE work. And like I said, I'm 55 and looking to retire.

            Does this answer your question? If not, I'm sorry. It's the best answer I can
            give you.
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      • Profile picture of the author icandi
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I've been at this for over 9 years. Yes, it's much harder, even for myself. Things
        that used to work are now near useless. Google has made article marketing a
        shell of what it once was. Article directories are near worthless except for
        syndication, and you now have to write minimum 1,000 word articles to even
        have a prayer to be syndicated.

        If I had to start all over now, I'd probably just go out and get a job. Seriously.
        To truly startup an Internet business worth spit, you need to invest mega bucks
        because the cheapo methods of old no longer work.

        God, I'm glad I'm reaching retirement age soon.
        I'm very new to IM and whilst I agree that it probably is harder than years past, for an IM newbie there's no barometer so we don't know if it's nostalgia about "the good old days" or it's a true fact.
        From my personal view all businesses are having a tough time these days, more competition, clients looking to cut costs, consumers looking for a bargain, that's why Groupon (which I personally don't like for what it's done to so many off line businesses) have done so well, they capitalised on consumers looking for a bargain and businesses looking for a "low risk" way to promote their business. Personally I don't think they really help many businesses especially as there are so many similar deal sites.
        I still think if you can come up with a truly creative idea then the internet provides an opportunity to make money with less risk and capital than almost any off line business. Having had retail outlets and the crazy margins and massive overheads I know which route I would choose,
        As for "just going out and getting a job" try telling that to the Graduates where it's reported that 20% cannot find work after many years of intensive studying and living frugally. (Not all students have it easy especially these days)
        According to stats in the UK 23% of the population are short of work (Eight million people short of work - Yahoo! News UK) a lot of my friends are uncertain about their job security and many others hate the job they are in.
        It's all about perception and the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
        Basically I think everyone is having a tough time right now, I wasn't a long way from my retirement, but that's changed - thanks to the fact that my pension has been so seriously affected post 2007 but I still consider myself lucky compared to many and am prepared to look on the brighter side...
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      For those with a myopic view of only using SEO or PPC, then I agree that the glory days of yore are perhaps over for them. :p

      But there are always new products, new markets, and more marketing channels with lower barriers to entry than ever before.

      The fundamental principles of sales and marketing never change, and sources of cheap/free traffic are actually far more abundant now.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mr. Ken Russell
        I think the glory days are just beginning.
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          If by "Glory Days" you mean when it was easier to game the system - to get your crappy sites artificially ranked high in the search engines by bulk purchasing from link farms and filling your pages with keyword-stuffed nonsense of little value to any actual human visitor or creating worthless Made-for-Adsense sites or upselling your subscribers to highly-priced "coaching" aggressively sold in by employees sitting in Utah call centers...

          Then yes, I suppose those days are over, or at least fast disappearing. Some of us might consider that a good thing.

          Of course there's more competition now. There's also an exponentially bigger potential market for virtually all products and services. I can't believe that any internet marketer would be anything but excited about the possibilities on offer.

          I have websites that have doubled in value every year since I originally built them and are likely to continue that way for the foreseeable future. The best property in London doesn't provide that kind of return.

          If I were to advise anyone starting up, I'd say begin immediately to build your assets and look to the long term. This business is going nowhere but up.


          Frank
          Signature


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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

            If by "Glory Days" you mean when it was easier to game the system - to get your crappy sites artificially ranked high in the search engines by bulk purchasing from link farms and filling your pages with keyword-stuffed nonsense of little value to any actual human visitor or creating worthless Made-for-Adsense sites or upselling your subscribers to highly-priced "coaching" aggressively sold in by employees sitting in Utah call centers...

            Then yes, I suppose those days are over, or at least fast disappearing. Some of us might consider that a good thing.

            Of course there's more competition now. There's also an exponentially bigger potential market for virtually all products and services. I can't believe that any internet marketer would be anything but excited about the possibilities on offer.

            I have websites that have doubled in value every year since I originally built them and are likely to continue that way for the foreseeable future. The best property in London doesn't provide that kind of return.

            If I were to advise anyone starting up, I'd say begin immediately to build your assets and look to the long term. This business is going nowhere but up.


            Frank
            Frank, I'm not talking about crappy sites and all that other nonsense.

            I made my fortune off of writing articles ... damn GOOD articles. Anybody
            who has read my writing knows I'm not bull shitting.

            I used to get 10 subscribers a day from my articles.

            Now I'm lucky if I get 10 a week.

            Why?

            Because Google has decided that my articles, the same articles that used to
            be GREAT, are now crap because they're on sites that Google now VIEWS
            as crap.

            Of the 3,000 articles I've written, there are about 6 that still get a crap load
            of traffic.

            Six.

            So please. I don't want to hear about how it's just the "crappy" forms of
            doing thing that got blasted. Lots of legitimate content has literally been
            blown off the planet because Google has decided on guilt by association.

            Even my own blog, with over 3,000 articles, has lost PR.

            Why?

            Because those same articles are on these sites that Google no longer has use
            for. So they've penalized me as well.

            My sites used to be PR 3 and 4.

            Now?

            I don't think I have one that's PR 1.

            Hey, it's no sweat off my brow. I'm getting close to retirement age anyway
            and my wife, God bless her, will be retiring from teaching soon and has a good
            pension and tax shelter. Plus, with all the good years we have, we don't
            have to worry.

            But imagine if we did.

            I'd be going back to the drawing board trying to figure out how to get back
            to where I was 2 years ago before I went into semi retirement, which was
            probably a mistake.

            Bottom line: You can do everything right and still find out it's not good enough.
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            • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              I made my fortune off of writing articles ... damn GOOD articles. Anybody
              who has read my writing knows I'm not bull shitting.

              I used to get 10 subscribers a day from my articles.

              Now I'm lucky if I get 10 a week.

              Why?

              Because Google has decided that my articles, the same articles that used to
              be GREAT, are now crap because they're on sites that Google now VIEWS
              as crap.
              Steven, I know you write good articles. But article writing wasn't your business, it was your method of promotion. Unfortunately for you and others like you, that method was getting progressively abused by lesser talents and a myriad of fly-by-night opportunists. Because the directories themselves didn't react to address the problems (some even encouraged the abuse by their lack of action), Google responded, perhaps too heavy-handedly, to maintain the integrity of their search results - at least in their view.

              The effectiveness of particular marketing channels will always fluctuate. That's why we all preach about having a mix of promotional methods. If your article marketing helped you to grow a list of buyers or prospects, that option should still be open to you, at least.

              But yeah. There's no doubt that there's been some heavy collateral damage in the clean-up, and probably more to come.


              Frank
              Signature


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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                Steven, I know you write good articles. But article writing wasn't your business, it was your method of promotion. Unfortunately for you and others like you, that method was progressively getting abused by lesser talents and a myriad of fly-by-night opportunists. Because the directories themselves didn't react to address the problems (some even encouraged the abuse by their lack of action), Google responded, perhaps too heavy-handedly, to maintain the integrity of their search results - at least in their view.

                The effectiveness of particular marketing channels will always fluctuate. That's why we all preach about having a mix of promotional methods. If your article marketing helped you to grow a list of buyers or prospects, that option should still be open to you, at least.

                But yeah. There's no doubt that there's been some heavy collateral damage in the clean-up, and probably more to come.


                Frank
                You're right. It wasn't my business. It was my main source of generating
                traffic to my various sites.

                It is no longer profitable.

                So I have to search for a NEW way.

                Paul talks about all these "avenues." Man, I wish he'd pass along some of
                them in this thread.

                Yeah, I know. I could go out pounding the Internet streets and knock on
                the doors of authority sites that have high rankings and maybe make a
                personal exclusive syndication deal with them. I have tried a few. Didn't even
                get a response, let alone a no thanks.

                I could just get out of the "Internet marketing" niche altogether and simply
                put up an authority site in a "real" niche and make money selling "real" products.

                You know ... like gardening supplies or even boats.

                I've always wanted to put up an authority site in the music biz. Just don't
                really have the motivation.

                And that, in a nutshell, is my problem. I just don't care enough like I did 9
                years ago. I'm not fighting for survival anymore. I don't "need" the money,
                though it would be nice to have a little bit of a cushion.

                I guess when the day comes that I become "desperate" again, I'll do what
                I have to do.

                Until then, it would have been nice if Google didn't screw the pooch just to
                kill the fleas.
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                • Profile picture of the author myob
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  Paul talks about all these "avenues." Man, I wish he'd pass along some of
                  them in this thread.
                  Of course I have been extremely successful using the article syndication marketing model, which is why I may seem by many to be overly enthusiastic about it. IMO, it always has been and will continue to be a marketing media with the lowest cost entry point as well as the maximum upside potential for marketers. For generating traffic and/or leads, especially in hotly competitive niches, it outshines any other method I know.

                  As a stand-alone marketing method (with or without SEO considerations), you really can drive hordes of highly convertible traffic directly by writing articles for niche ezine publishers, context-relevant websites and blogs, and offline outlets such as magazines, trade journals, newspapers , etc. Publishers are frequently hungry for relevant, quality content. This will not end in the foreseeable future.

                  The article syndication marketing model has been effective long before the internet, and has increasingly become ever more relevant with Google's frequent updates and on-going algorithm changes. An excellent ebook I have often recommended is this timely classic, Turn Words Into Traffic, by Jim and Dallas Edwards.

                  For maximum leverage of resulting traffic, I build lists. Nearly all of my sales are a direct result of marketing to opt-in subscribers. As the sales cycles progress, promotions to buyers continue with incrementally higher end products with an increasing variety of contact points. These include; telemarketing, postal mail, mobile marketing, webinars, seminars, and even face-to-face sales. Effective marketing involves using as many different media as possible. It should never be considered single dimensional.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by myob View Post

                    Of course I have been extremely successful using the article syndication marketing model, which is why I may seem by many to be overly enthusiastic about it. IMO, it always has been and will continue to be a marketing media with the lowest cost entry point as well as the maximum upside potential for marketers. For generating traffic and/or leads, especially in hotly competitive niches, it outshines any other method I know.

                    As a stand-alone marketing method (with or without SEO considerations), you really can drive hordes of highly convertible traffic directly by writing articles for niche ezine publishers, context-relevant websites and blogs, and offline outlets such as magazines, trade journals, newspapers , etc. Publishers are frequently hungry for relevant, quality content. This will not end in the foreseeable future.

                    The article syndication marketing model has been effective long before the internet, and has increasingly become ever more relevant with Google's frequent updates and on-going algorithm changes. An excellent ebook I have often recommended is this timely classic, Turn Words Into Traffic, by Jim and Dallas Edwards.

                    For maximum leverage of resulting traffic, I build lists. Nearly all of my sales are a direct result of marketing to opt-in subscribers. As the sales cycles progress, promotions to buyers continue with incrementally higher end products with an increasing variety of contact points. These include; telemarketing, postal mail, mobile marketing, webinars, seminars, and even face-to-face sales. Effective marketing involves using as many different media as possible. It should never be considered single dimensional.
                    Thanks Paul. So just how do you get all these syndication gigs? Everyone I've
                    contacted hasn't even had the professional courtesy to respond.

                    Maybe it's my after shave.
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                    • Profile picture of the author myob
                      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                      Thanks Paul. So just how do you get all these syndication gigs? Everyone I've
                      contacted hasn't even had the professional courtesy to respond.
                      Could it be your attitude?

                      Seriously, in over 15 years of online marketing, I have found that simple things still work exceptionally well, and in some cases far more effectively than most of the new fangled (distracting) systems we see so often now. The fundamentals of sales and marketing have not changed, but it seems to me there is a lot of confusion between what are marketing fundamentals and what are merely tools. For example, if all you have in your toolbox is a hammer (ie SEO), then marketing is treated like a nail (ie getting to #1 on Google).

                      Marketing has more than one single dimension. Regardless of advances in technology or "systems", sales involves interacting with real people, often at many levels of engagement. My conversion/funnel system just happens to begin with article syndication for generating warm traffic. However, the tools I use for closing sales on resulting traffic include autoresponders, telemarketing, webinars, video product demonstrations, social media, mobile marketing, snail mail (postcards, flyers), seminars, direct sales (personal presentations), etc.

                      Having said that, I have found that marketing in some of the most highly competitive niches is nearly impossible without somehow bypassing deep-pocketed SEO/PPC professionals who dominate the SERPs with entrenched keywords. This is where the article syndication marketing model shines the brightest. With positioning in relevant online/offline publications, article syndication can drive floods of highly targeted traffic.

                      For very nominal expense, a good writer can still break into virtually any niche, no matter how stiff the competition may be. In stark contrast to SEO, where one must search for "low competion" keywords/phrases to rank, the most competitive niches generally provide greater opportunities for article syndication publication.

                      Here's a few excellent resources I recommend:

                      Directory of Ezines

                      "Writers' Market" - contains contact information and guidelines for submitting articles.

                      Turn Words Into Traffic

                      "Brand Against the Machine: How to Build Your Brand, Cut Through the Marketing Noise, and Stand Out from the Competition", by John Morgan (Available on Amazon or at a fine bookstore near you)


                      Also, these links may be helpful:

                      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post4610124

                      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post6575732

                      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post3188316

                      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post5035794
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            • Profile picture of the author emini_guy
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Frank, I'm not talking about crappy sites and all that other nonsense.

              I made my fortune off of writing articles ... damn GOOD articles. Anybody
              who has read my writing knows I'm not bull shitting.
              I feel your pain, Steven. I know what you are talking about. I know you are good at it. I used to rely on article marketing a lot too. I still believe that it's one of the best, most honest and value-laden way of marketing, but Google's recent silly games are making it just another discredited marketing method. That's a shame, really.
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        • Profile picture of the author BrightShinyObjects
          Originally Posted by RussellK View Post

          I think the glory days are just beginning.
          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          Of course there's more competition now. There's also an exponentially bigger potential market for virtually all products and services. I can't believe that any internet marketer would be anything but excited about the possibilities on offer.

          This business is going nowhere but up.
          Frank
          Since I've been so slow to get my sites up for affiliate marketing, I'm glad there are some positive thoughts here. Looking over the posts on this thread and others talking about how IM has changed over the last few years, it seems like the critical ability we need is flexibility. And maybe optimism!

          Mary
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          • Profile picture of the author ronr
            I've been researching and reporting who is really making money online and offline with their unusual business ideas for the last 10 years.

            I don't know if the glory days are over but they've sure changed for better and worse.

            I remember repording on things like PPC when it first came out. I could spend a hundred dollars a month on Adwords and sell thousands of dollars in product. It was sure nice while it lasted. As others have said SEO does seem to be harder now and article marketing is a shadow of what it was.

            However some things are better. There are a lot of good tools and services we have today that make it so much easier. I can also remember reporting on these new fangled things called membership sites. At that time no one thought you could get people to pay for access to a website. The only ones doing that were porn sites. I remember trying to set up my first membership website. The software cost $3500 or I could cobble together 2-3 different services to do it. it was a nightmare but it worked. Today you can get a membership site set up in minutes with a free plugin.

            There will ALWAYS be opportunties but they'll change with time. However there are still constants. People are still people and and want to be richer, more beautiful, have relationships, and be happier...and they still buy prodcucts to help the achieve these thingss.

            I still find success stories of people that are making money online and offline. They don't know that the glory days are over. They have an idea, take advantage of the new technology, know (or learn) how to market and run with it.

            For example: 2 moms create 100k year sendng balls in the mail


            or

            Teacher Makes $1 Million Selling Lesson Plans Online

            Keep moving forward.

            Ron
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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
              BTW Steven, I think there is still one person left in this thread you ought to thank.
              It was earlier on in the discussion and at that point your mind probably wasn't in the right place.

              Originally Posted by ronr View Post

              I still find success stories of people that are making money online and offline. They don't know that the glory days are over. They have an idea, take advantage of the new technology, know (or learn) how to market and run with it.

              For example:

              [SNIP]

              Teacher Makes $1 Million Selling Lesson Plans Online

              Keep moving forward.

              Ron
              So, remind us.

              After 30 years of teaching how many great lesson plans does your wife have that she can sell?


              Martin
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                BTW Steven, I think there is still one person left in this thread you ought to thank.
                It was earlier on in the discussion and at that point your mind probably wasn't in the right place.



                So, remind us.

                After 30 years of teaching how many great lesson plans does your wife have that she can sell?


                Martin
                Yeah, she's got tons of them. Not sure she wants to get into IM though.
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                • Profile picture of the author ronr
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  Yeah, she's got tons of them. Not sure she wants to get into IM though.
                  Steve, this may not be someting you want to do, but if it is...she could supply the lesson plans and you the IM to sell it.

                  But even it's not something you want to get involved in, it's still a great inspirational story about someone who thought outside of the box and possibly something that could be modeled and adapted to different niches.

                  Ron
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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by ronr View Post

                    Steve, this may not be someting you want to do, but if it is...she could supply the lesson plans and you the IM to sell it.

                    But even it's not something you want to get involved in, it's still a great inspirational story about someone who thought outside of the box and possibly something that could be modeled and adapted to different niches.

                    Ron
                    Absolutely. There are so many professions that require a lot of "grunt" work,
                    such as lesson plans for teachers, that, if somebody would supply those things,
                    they could do very well.

                    Sermons for clergy is another one.

                    But no, I have no interest in that stuff. If by necessity, however, I found
                    myself in a situation where I desperately needed the money and I knew my
                    wife had enough material to make me a fortune, I'd do it.

                    It all comes down to Maslow.

                    I've not quite fallen back to the bottom half of the pyramid yet.
                    Signature
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        • Profile picture of the author BrianCampbelldotcom
          Originally Posted by RussellK View Post

          I think the glory days are just beginning.
          I agree with Russell. The methods that worked well in the past barely work at all. Opportunities have shifted, but it's still easy to make a HUGE splash & succeed. The way to do it has simply changed.

          Expensive PPC is an opportunity, you just need to charge enough to cover the cost and still make a profit. If you build a list while you do it you can still have cheap products on the backend. It's pure profit once you have a list.

          There are more opportunities now than ever before. I'm more excited than ever about the future!
          Signature
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          • Profile picture of the author OneLifeAway
            Originally Posted by BrianCampbelldotcom View Post

            I agree with Russell. The methods that worked well in the past barely work at all. Opportunities have shifted, but it's still easy to make a HUGE splash & succeed. The way to do it has simply changed.

            Expensive PPC is an opportunity, you just need to charge enough to cover the cost and still make a profit. If you build a list while you do it you can still have cheap products on the backend. It's pure profit once you have a list.

            There are more opportunities now than ever before. I'm more excited than ever about the future!
            Completely agree with the both of you. It's still is very easy to make a HUGE splash & succeed... Opportunities have shifted... Video marketing is growing but is a completely different beast than anything from the past. Crack the code now and I think you will be setting yourself up for the future!

            And andyredsox I agree that it's quite difficult nowadays to make a website popular than a couple of years ago. But you don't need your website to be popular in order to make money! I think we need to shift our thinking to getting our quality message and information out there and in doing so, people will track you down to buy from you...
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        • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
          Originally Posted by RussellK View Post

          I think the glory days are just beginning.
          I agree. I don't think the "glory days" are over. I think the "sandbox" days are over.

          You can't just register makemoneyonlinedomination dot com, anymore post up a link to a $47 ebook about SEO and watch the dollars roll in. The early days of the internet gave a lot of wannabe entrepreneurs a false sense of their own expertise. Some of them still haven't learned and are still trying to teach methods that went out of date years ago.

          And of course, with all the newbies coming on the IM scene, you end up with the blind leading the blind. That's one of the reason 97% of IMers are failing.

          If you're offering something of real value, you're going to do well. All you need is persistence and the right marketing strategy.

          However, spammers and overnight success seekers are being quickly driven into extinction as the online marketplace becomes more regulated and the novelty effect continues to wear off.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        For those with a myopic view of only using SEO or PPC, then I agree that the glory days of yore are perhaps over for them. :p

        But there are always new products, new markets, and more marketing channels with lower barriers to entry than ever before.

        The fundamental principles of sales and marketing never change, and sources of cheap/free traffic are actually far more abundant now.
        Oh yeah, I forgot about the miracle of article syndication. Apparently the answer to all problems on the warrior forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author myob
          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          Oh yeah, I forgot about the miracle of article syndication. Apparently the answer to all problems on the warrior forum.
          Although I have amassed a fortune over the last 15 years using this as a primary lead/traffic generating method, it certainly is not the only way. My point is that opportunities in general are growing on a massive scale, particularly as a result of market segmentation and the rapid pace of emerging technologies. There is no end in sight.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anurag96
    Yeah, It is difficult now to make a website popular than it is 5 - 10 years ago as Google's new thinking is changing the game always. You never know on which reason Google will penalize your website. And due to Smart Google, crappy looking site are considered as SPAM. But if you have dedication towards your website than even Google can't stop your from your website's success. Right??
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    Depends on what your market is. SEO and PPC is more difficult, but IM as a whole is easier IMO.
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Are the glory days over? Man, the glory days haven't even arrived yet.

    99.999999 percent of our customers are not even online yet.

    We have 2 jobs to do. Number 1 get them online and number 2 help them.

    George Wright
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveFinch
    It is definately harder these days than a few years ago, but still worth having a go.
    Several years ago I built sites and sold them on a ebay for a few hundred each and not one of them had any income. I was selling quite a few a week as well.

    I also had a membership site, that bought in approx £1000 a month. And looking back on it, I really didn't have to a lot to make that money. It provided hosting, a forum and site templates.

    These days I still build sites, but hang on to them, and try to get them to have some kind of brand and a following. As Frank said, these days you have to look at a long term model, rather than the fast cash model.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anton543
    Yes it was easier in those days. Do you remember people use to build up huge networks of sites just to give their main sites a link back from them and it use to work? You can get link of anything - web directories, completely irrelevant sites, and the more the better. Getting search rankings was so much easier in those days. There even use to be a time when people use to promote affiliate banners on completely non-related sites and still use to get clicks and conversions. The problem is that I was pretty awful when I stated out in 2006 and then missed 3 years through depression. Thankfully, my sites are ranking pretty well and and I am making enough to get by, but I really need to latch on to eBook marketing and lists, and when i have mastered them to some extent, I think I can get by pretty well. I am also going to try dabble into dropshipping in a more serious way because I feel eCommerce stores are probably the most immune to changes and fluctuations that happen in IM - if can do PPC well, that is.

    I am going to save very astutely the income and only reinvest 25% in any given month. If it goes all pear shaped 4-5 years down the line you got to have something to show for it. The savings will be what have to show for the hard work.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
      If by "Glory Days" you mean when it was easier to game the system - to get your crappy sites artificially ranked high in the search engines by bulk purchasing from link farms and filling your pages with keyword-stuffed nonsense of little value to any actual human visitor or creating worthless Made-for-Adsense sites or upselling your subscribers to highly-priced "coaching" aggressively sold in by employees sitting in Utah call centers...
      No, that's actually not what I was referring to at all.

      I have websites that have doubled in value every year since I originally built them and are likely to continue that way for the foreseeable future. The best property in London doesn't provide that kind of return.
      Well that's kind of my point. I started in 2005 with a minimal investment and kept growing the business year after year. And it sounds like you did the same, but you already were building the business. Do you think it's the same for someone starting with no experience right now?
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  • Profile picture of the author HKSEO Jonbones
    There's no doubt that it is harder for someone just starting out now as opposed to a few years ago--the landscape has changed, not to mention the population of people trying to make a living in SEO has exploded. The more mouths there are to feed, the less food that any one mouth gets
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  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    Here's an example:

    If you take a look at product reviews online.....A few years ago no one knew about this kind of strategy to make money. The people who started with it made a ton of money. These days, there is so much competition for reviews that even if you wrote close to 1000 product reviews, there is no guarantee that you will even make $1.

    I have written close to 1000 of them in a matter of a few weeks last year and it has not done so well for me. If you take a look at the competition out there, it is not even worth it to start with this single strategy.

    Articles:

    You have a small chance to get little traffic if you wrote a lot of them on a daily basis.

    Videos:

    That can work out for you but for the internet marketing niche and make money online niche, a lot of videos and channels are being ERASED and BLOCKED from doing business this way.

    PPC:

    That still works for many people.

    Forum Marketing:

    Still works too if you work it well and don't spam the forums that you are involved in.

    SEO:

    bad idea in my view.
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    You know the deal. Whatever you think it is, it will be. For some, like me, the glory days are here and will only get better.

    It's up to you, as always.

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

      You know the deal. Whatever you think it is, it will be. For some, like me, the glory days are here and will only get better.

      It's up to you, as always.

      Ken, I don't buy into the "drink the Kool Aid" power of positive thinking crap. I
      had the most optimistic view of this business that you can possibly have. But
      when something goes down that drastically changes the way things work,
      something that is entirely out of your control, you can drink all the Kool Aid you
      want and it won't change the reality of certain things.

      I can insist that I can still write quality crafted articles with real content that
      REALLY help people, and that those articles will be read and loved and
      responded to. But if Google says, "Um, no, you can't because we won't let
      anybody see them anymore" there isn't a hell of a lot I can do about that
      other than look for OTHER means of driving traffic to my site.

      And I am in no way suggesting that there aren't ways to do that. There are
      plenty of ways to drive traffic to your site. Some are free and time consuming
      and some are expensive and fast.

      I'm not sinking money into a PPC or ad buy campaign. That isn't for me.

      SEO in MY niche is a nightmare. The competition is off the charts. I'd
      virtually have to gut my domain and start over. No thanks. I'll take retirement
      instead.

      Point is, this isn't just a "head games" thing. Real and drastic changes have
      come about. They have, in some cases, literally destroyed businesses. And
      I'm not talking about just rinky dink little crap sites. I'm talking about major
      companies spending hundreds of thousands of dollars each month on Adwords
      only to be told that their business wasn't wanted anymore.

      I agree that if you want something bad enough, you'll find a way to get it,
      just like I did when I first started.

      But to suggest that "whatever you THINK it will be, will be" is just nonsense.

      But then again, some people really DO believe in the power of positive
      thinking. I don't. I believe that you earn everything you get and sometimes
      that means working very hard to get it, like when I was working 14 hour days
      7 days a week for years.

      Well, I'm too old for that shit now. I have better things to do with my life.

      For everybody else, yeah, if you want it, you can get it.

      Just don't expect it to come easy.
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      • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
        Steve,

        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Ken, I don't buy into the "drink the Kool Aid" power of positive thinking crap.
        I'm not asking or suggesting you drink anything. And the fact that you reduce it to power of positive thinking crap only attests to your shallow thinking and lack of understanding. But that's fine with me. You're certainly welcome to think, act, and live your life as you see fit.

        But if Google says, "Um, no, you can't because we won't let
        anybody see them anymore" there isn't a hell of a lot I can do about that
        other than look for OTHER means of driving traffic to my site.
        There's always article syndication. Just ask others here, and you know who they are.

        Point is, this isn't just a "head games" thing.
        But to suggest that "whatever you THINK it will be, will be" is just nonsense.
        See response above. Thinking it's nonsense or how ever you want to characterize it works for me, pal.

        But then again, some people really DO believe in the power of positive
        thinking. I don't. I believe that you earn everything you get and sometimes
        that means working very hard to get it, like when I was working 14 hour days
        7 days a week for years.
        You really should learn more about something before bestowing blustery judgment. But, you can also do that if you choose, and obviously you do. Power to you.

        Well, I'm too old for that shit now. I have better things to do with my life.
        As you wish. That's great, Steve.
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  • Profile picture of the author KaplanT4
    The glory days will always be alive for those who craft the right message to the right audience. It really is that simple. It's business 101 - yet many who get into internet marketing don't have that 101 understanding. The internet is just a medium. Just gotta know how to use it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
      Paul talks about all these "avenues." Man, I wish he'd pass along some of them in this thread.
      Yeah, I still can't believe how much this topic comes up. I think people understand the overall concept of it and have seen it in action, but I still think everything is fuzzy around these "avenues" and how it's applicable to most websites.

      I know many writers that would be considered very successful syndicators, but...

      1) It is like anything else. The easier it is to place articles, the less effective they are. The big payoff relationships have taken years for them to develop.
      2) Even though they are good at getting their articles out there, it is not the major source of traffic/sales/profits.

      But that's not what you'd believe if you read the WF.

      Steve found out firsthand that it is possible to get a penalty by putting articles on your site AND elsewhere. Yet if you read back 1-2 years, you'd see people saying that was a good idea.
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  • Profile picture of the author vCr8
    Glory days? Hmm If your definition of it is to get bucks easily with crappy sites and cheap source of syndication and traffic... Well yes it will be harder, IMO its just because IM is more structured now than 5-10 years ago. If your site is a crap well most likely it will be considered a spam... Well if you considered how your viewers would appreciate your site you wouldn't have made such a site in the first place... On the other hand I think it will just get even better, IM people who are in just to spam and go for some quick buck will not stick around for long, but those who are passionate enough will succeed.
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  • Profile picture of the author imobile
    Yea the glory days of easy money are indeed over. The FTC made Google be sure of that. But with any business you must always stay ahead of the game in which you play otherwise you get eaten. What these Google updates did was remove alot of the low quality crap, and make way for more quality sites which is a good thing better for the users and better for the quality sites that have put forth much effort to provide a premium user experience.

    Don't look at this as the end, look at it as the beginning. Because "Out of chaos comes opportunity." Your job as a entrepreneur is to spot these opportunities and take advantage of them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
    The glory days aren't over, the money opportunities have just shifted. Even with the bad economy of the last few years, no less money is being spent Online, in fact it has increased. You either adapt or you go out of business.

    The game has shifted to low front end offers with an upsell into higher ticket products/continuity/coaching/events. For you IM niche guys, it seems like someone is doing a 6-figure WSO launch like every other day. How could you look at that and say the glory days are over? Maybe you should get out, network and earn some JV partners.

    Personally, I've never made such easy money with my niche sites. Advertisers are paying me $4k a pop just for my assistant to load their ad and press send. On top of that I'm earning enough just from banner ads and Adsense to pay my mortgage and car note each month.

    Offline businesses are paying for lead generation like crazy. I get offline clients from referrals and from attending local Meetup.com meetings and casually talking with folks. That's an opportunity for anyone with IM skills.

    Webinars are still working if you're good at putting together a really good offer and presenting it so that people can envision themselves benefiting from it. There is no easier way to get people to JV with you than having a good converting, good content webinar.

    Personally I think SEO is shifting to bigger companies with authority sites and a staff of quality content contributors. That's why building your entire business around SEO traffic was never a good idea IMHO.

    If you're too stubborn to try new things, learn new skills, and find other ways to promote your business, then the issue is not the market - it is you. Not singling anybody out, just saying.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Ron, you know I have more respect for you than just about anybody else on
      the Internet. You've truly done big things and you earned every penny.

      Let me comment and touch on your points below.

      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      The glory days aren't over, the money opportunities have just shifted. Even with the bad economy of the last few years, no less money is being spent Online, in fact it has increased. You either adapt or you go out of business.
      Yes. Lots of money is being spent. I just went to Amazon and bought DVDs,
      and even an electric carving knife. I'm so lazy, I hardly ever go to a store
      anymore. People will always spend money on things they WANT.

      The game has shifted to low front end offers with an upsell into higher ticket products/continuity/coaching/events. For you IM niche guys, it seems like someone is doing a 6-figure WSO launch like every other day. How could you look at that and say the glory days are over? Maybe you should get out, network and earn some JV partners.
      Ah, okay. Didn't know this. Well, that certainly makes my current business
      model rather obsolete so I'm hitting from behind the 8 ball right off the bat.
      Creating a high end ticket item is a lot of work and I'm not sure I'm up for that
      alone.

      Which brings up the JV partners.

      This is ironic. Early on, I had no problem doing this and had quite a few
      successful JVs. Today, all I'm getting is "don't have the time". Seems that
      the big boys are too busy with their own headaches. All I know is I've tried
      this route and it didn't pan out and I really don't want to do a massive
      project by myself. But that's on me and I get it. Nobody owes me anything.

      Point is, getting a JV isn't as easy, at least for me, as it used to be.

      Just being honest.

      Personally, I've never made such easy money with my niche sites. Advertisers are paying me $4k a pop just for my assistant to load their ad and press send. On top of that I'm earning enough just from banner ads and Adsense to pay my mortgage and car note each month.
      I'm sure these niche sites are quite aged and are getting quite a bit of traffic
      to get these deals. If I tried to sell ads for my list, I'd be laughed off the
      Internet. Forget $4 let alone $4k. And if you're niche sites are already doing
      that well, the advertisers are just gravy and not even needed.

      This comes back to the old "it takes money to make money" and it's true to
      an extent. If you already have an authority site getting 100,000 visitors a
      month, you can charge people insane amounts of money for banner ads.

      But at that point, do you really need to unless you simply just want to make
      MORE money?

      At what point is enough, enough?

      Offline businesses are paying for lead generation like crazy. I get offline clients from referrals and from attending local Meetup.com meetings and casually talking with folks. That's an opportunity for anyone with IM skills.
      Yeah, this can work. Not really interested in this model. It's just not for me.

      Webinars are still working if you're good at putting together a really good offer and presenting it so that people can envision themselves benefiting from it. They're is no easier way to get people to JV with you than having a good converting, good content webinar.
      Did a webinar back when I was actually doing well and it didn't make ONE sale.

      And I didn't do it alone either. But that's another story.

      Again, though, sure I'd be open to this if I could find somebody to do it with,
      But now we're back to the old "sorry, no time" responses that I've been
      getting.


      Personally I think SEO is shifting to bigger companies with authority sites and a staff of quality content contributors. That's why building your entire business around SEO traffic was never a good idea IMHO.
      I wouldn't know. I've never relied on SEO.

      If you're too stubborn to try new things, learn new skills, and find other ways to promote your business, then the issue is not the market - it is you. Not singling anybody out, just saying.
      You're right. This I can't argue with. It's on me.

      I have ideas. Lots of them that have nothing to do with the IM niche, which
      I am beginning to despise. But I don't want to put together a full blown
      authority site complete with products, membership, forum, etc., all by myself.

      It's too much work for somebody who just turned 55 and is, quite honestly,
      just looking forward to retiring.

      And it's not like I've done nothing with my IM life.

      In 9 years I've created over 300 products. Some sold very well. Some, not
      so well. I've written over 3,000 articles on the subjects of Internet marketing,
      running a home business, article writing, copywriting, email marketing, list
      building and even the occult.

      If you look up my name online, you'll find my articles all over the place.

      I've worked my 14 hour days for years and now it feels like I'm starting all
      over again.

      So yeah, it's on me.

      I'm just not ready to make that kind of sacrifice again.

      Yeah, retirement can't come soon enough.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      The glory days aren't over, the money opportunities have just shifted. Even with the bad economy of the last few years, no less money is being spent Online, in fact it has increased. You either adapt or you go out of business.

      The game has shifted to low front end offers with an upsell into higher ticket products/continuity/coaching/events. For you IM niche guys, it seems like someone is doing a 6-figure WSO launch like every other day. How could you look at that and say the glory days are over? Maybe you should get out, network and earn some JV partners.

      Personally, I've never made such easy money with my niche sites. Advertisers are paying me $4k a pop just for my assistant to load their ad and press send. On top of that I'm earning enough just from banner ads and Adsense to pay my mortgage and car note each month.

      Offline businesses are paying for lead generation like crazy. I get offline clients from referrals and from attending local Meetup.com meetings and casually talking with folks. That's an opportunity for anyone with IM skills.

      Webinars are still working if you're good at putting together a really good offer and presenting it so that people can envision themselves benefiting from it. They're is no easier way to get people to JV with you than having a good converting, good content webinar.

      Personally I think SEO is shifting to bigger companies with authority sites and a staff of quality content contributors. That's why building your entire business around SEO traffic was never a good idea IMHO.

      If you're too stubborn to try new things, learn new skills, and find other ways to promote your business, then the issue is not the market - it is you. Not singling anybody out, just saying.
      I understand what you're saying , but established businesses making more money wasn't really what I was talking about. I'm talking about the guy that wants to make money online and starts from scratch. Harder than vs. now?

      But besides that, the market might be growing but the bigger players are getting bigger.
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  • Profile picture of the author TeamBringIt
    Seo and PPC are a lot harder now and that landscape has majorly changed. I'd Say that IM or marketing in general is a lot better now, because of all the tools and education that exists today.

    There is a wealth of information on building lists, getting more traffic, getting better conversions. Gazillion of tools on making nice looking landing pages/squeeze pages/ sales letters..etc

    Also, more and more people are getting on the internet now, compared to 10-12 years ago. There are more opportunities, for those that stay in the game and keep pushing forward!

    It is all based on mindset and how bad one wants success. Landscapes will always change, but one's mind should always remain the same and go after what they want no matter what...
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

      No, they're not over and honestly? I think it's far easier today and will get even easier in the future.

      The problem, as I see it anyways, is that too many people chase after fads rather than concentrate on building long-term, sustainable businesses that are dependent on any one thing.

      It takes a lot of flexibility, a willingness to stay current and adapt (learn to love change), and focusing on management rather than just hands on, grunt work.

      I've just made a move into Kindle for example - knew bits and pieces about it until two weeks ago. Now I'm gaining expertise quickly and putting a lot of effort into because I know it's going to last for years into the future. And I'm already exploring other aspects of it that I don't see anyone here doing.

      There are more opportunities than ever for newbies looking to get into IM, but they've got to look at the bigger picture, proceed with a cohesive plan and improve their technical knowledge if they're going to take advantage of what's coming in the next few years...think Internet of Things
      Ah, technical knowledge. Boy Mike, you know I've been saying this for years.
      When it comes to technology, I suck. It has ALWAYS been the one thorn in
      my side.

      In fact, if I could create software, I know I'd never have this problem,
      especially if I knew I was creating something that people wanted that was
      better than what was already out there.

      Songwriting and recording tools. I hate the stuff that's out there now. It's
      either clunky or not intuitive enough. I'd make it better.

      But technology is not my strong suit. I can just about upload files to my
      server.

      But yeah, there are a lot of untapped things, like Kindle, that are available.
      Learning these things at my age won't be easy. My memory isn't what it
      used to be and my patience level is at an all time low.

      But like Ron said, it's on me. Nobody else.

      When I finally decide that this is important enough to me to do something
      about it, I'll do something about it.
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          Steve, Kindle is a no-brainer...with your writing skills, you, of all people, should be killing it there. Hint - go check out the WBC - I did and it got me up and running in a week with my first one published.

          http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...ior-style.html

          Look, you know I'm a developer, not a writer; but I'm still making the effort because of the opportunities there.

          I'll bet you could slide into a comfortable retirement on Kindle alone...
          Thank you. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.

          If this works out, I owe you ... big time.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          Steve, Kindle is a no-brainer...with your writing skills, you, of all people, should be killing it there. Hint - go check out the WBC - I did and it got me up and running in a week with my first one published.

          http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...ior-style.html

          Look, you know I'm a developer, not a writer; but I'm still making the effort because of the opportunities there.

          I'll bet you could slide into a comfortable retirement on Kindle alone...
          I just signed up. I see payment goes to Allen Says, so this has to be a no
          brainer.

          I'm assuming that the club is a special section on this forum? I haven't gotten
          any kind of "product" link or anything yet.

          Let me know if there's something else I have to do.

          I'm going to make this my New Year's Resolution to learn this and master this
          if it kills me.
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          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

              Yes, it's private in the same section as the War Room. You'll get a link within a few hours - I think it's set up manually.
              I'm in Mike. OMG, I haven't been this excited reading something since my first
              Playboy mag article (yes, article) in the 60s.

              Bryan is SUCH a good writer. I can read him all day long.

              Anyway, I'll be burying myself in this stuff and by New Years I'll be up and
              running and back on top. I already see it. And, the best part is, I already
              have SO many things written.

              (Must calm down)

              Thank you again. And yes, you can run up my Pay Per View bill as much as
              you want.
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          • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            I just signed up. I see payment goes to Allen Says, so this has to be a no
            brainer.

            I'm assuming that the club is a special section on this forum? I haven't gotten
            any kind of "product" link or anything yet.

            Let me know if there's something else I have to do.

            I'm going to make this my New Year's Resolution to learn this and master this
            if it kills me.
            Steve, I'm with BigMike on this one here. I think Kindle (and Nook) is tailor-made for you with your writing skills and your work ethic. If you mastermind with the people in that private forum you are going to learn A LOT on how to market your works and how to price them.

            Good for you for being open to this.

            RoD
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

              Steve, I'm with BigMike on this one here. I think Kindle (and Nook) is tailor-made for you with your writing skills and your work ethic. If you mastermind with the people in that private forum you are going to learn A LOT on how to market your works and how to price them.

              Good for you for being open to this.

              RoD
              Open? I'm SALIVATING all over this one.

              Why oh WHY did I ignore this for SO long?

              (Bangs head against keyboard)

              We definitely need a "bang head against wall" emoticon.
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              • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Open? I'm SALIVATING all over this one.

                Why oh WHY did I ignore this for SO long?

                (Bangs head against keyboard)

                We definitely need a "bang head against wall" emoticon.
                That's how I felt about Pinterest and Craigslist when we finally started using them to bring in sales. What a beautiful head bang it was though.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        But like Ron said, it's on me. Nobody else.
        I was responding more to the words (general sentiment of what) you were saying and not directly to you (if that makes any sense lol)

        55 is young my friend. Many super successful people were just getting started in their 50s. You've accomplished so much already - there's no reason to think you can't do anything you put your mind to.

        It's not work if you enjoy it. If not, do what you enjoy and have no regrets.
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    • Profile picture of the author Magic Mike IM
      I think its more difficult for new people to make significant money quickly then it used to be. The overall opportunity is still there, but the fast money for newbies is much harder to come by.

      I remember in the late 90's I used to scrape email address and send out 5K "make money online" emails every night. Didn't know what I was doing... the word "spam" was barely in existence. I'd wake up just about every morning with $50-$200 sitting in my inbox !!!

      Today you need to learn more, there is Google to deal with, and you need to think about building a real business rather than burning bridges for immediate money.

      Opportunities are everywhere... but there is more competition and the consumer is a bit more jaded then they used to be. You need more skills nowadays, in my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    What do you think? Are the barriers to entry larger now?
    The barriers to entry are pretty much the same. You pay for hosting, probably an autoresponder service or software (self-hosting), a few bucks for a website (if that's part of your model), and then a budget for advertising, other promotions, and education.

    While I'm on the side that believes there are FAR more opportunities to make money today than even 5 years ago, I think, in general, it's tougher for a newbie to get started today for one simple reason:

    There is a 100 fold increase in information on "how-to" start a business (or a money-maker) than a decade ago.

    The amount of information today on how to make money is staggering compared to when I first started in 1999. It just blows my mind. The Warrior Special Offers forum, Clickbank, Paydotcom, JVZoo, Warrior Plus, Commission Junction, etc. are just a small drop in the overall ecommerce bucket.

    I see a lot of newbies suffer from:

    1. Information overload
    2. New Shiny Object Syndrome

    There's more opportunity today than ever before, but I think it's actually harder today to get started. The good news is that there are also more qualified coaches out there who have set up some really good membership sites and/or coaching programs to get people through all the noise; and no, I'm not going to mention any of them here.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
    I think Steven buying something during the course of this thread lets us all know that 'all is well' when it comes to IM

    Opportunities are everywhere.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

      I think Steven buying something during the course of this thread lets us all know that 'all is well' when it comes to IM

      Opportunities are everywhere.
      Yes it does. And you know what else?

      I have been away from this forum for 2 years and something drew me back to it.

      Had I NOT come back, I wouldn't have stumbled onto this thread today, a
      thread that may very well end up turning my life around, yet again.

      Look, I had one successful run. I know it can be done. There is no reason I
      can't do it again.

      And this will PROVE that even when you've hit rock bottom (yes, I've seen
      that floor twice now) you can STILL rise back up to the top.

      Six months from now, I'm going to return here and let everybody know how
      Kindle literally changed my life, yet again.

      You just wait world ... Wags is back!
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      • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        You just wait world ... Wags is back!
        Way to go, Wags That's the spirit!
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      • Profile picture of the author seriousjake
        I can't help but get affected by all the negativity I've read about the challenges that await me in IM. Not the best mindset to adopt when starting something new because let's face it just about EVERY little thing I'm learning is almost completely new to me. There are so many variables everywhere and each one I get wrong could potentially compound itself and keep me from actually getting anywhere despite what I may do right. That complete uncertainty is terrifying. The worst feeling in the world is putting everything you have into something and not understanding why you fail. It's like nurturing a relationship for years only to have it crumble without a sign. Especially in IM where I'm completely on my own seeing that I can't afford guidance.

        Still, I tell myself to shut up and carry on until I find proof of failure. I went through the information overload phase but I knew how to turn that off immediately (exploring something new is something I'm accustomed to). So I've picked a strategy and I'm acting on it. Every step of the way, I find more questions and more doubts "Should I do this? Should I try this instead? Wait, back up. Let's take this from the top again."

        Setting up websites, balancing my budget, writing content (and the fear of writing subpar content), design, paypal, clickbank, free offers, OTOs, squeeze page, emails, it's an awful lot to process seeing that I didn't even know what half of that meant a short while ago. Then there are conflicting statements posted here in the WF that lead me through a nice rainbow of emotions on a daily basis until it all turns to white noise, blips out and I tell myself to shut up and carry on again.

        Why? Because when it comes down to it, whatever period you're in, people are making a profit and it's your fault if you're not. I know that other newbies will enter this space and be successful at it too, at this time. I'd like to be one of them. It would be so easy if I just sat back and gave up on this project but I know what rock bottom feels like and I don't want to stay here any more.

        I finished the content for my free report today. It's my first report and it's not much but it's something. I'm sure there are a thousand ways you could improve it but at least I'm one step closer to launching my first internet marketing campaign.

        In summation, this totally blows but at least I smile when I'm working.
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        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author seriousjake
            Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

            Simple answer - stay away from the negative things...surround yourself with positive, successful, like-minded people who are willing to rise to a challenge rather than be defeated by it.

            Complicated answer - you're from Dubai, right? Dude, just take a look around that gorgeous city and look what has been accomplished there. Twenty years ago most folks never even heard of it and today? It's darn near a household word, given the incredible things being done.

            I'm sure the folks behind it had huge obstacles to overcome, but it was turned into the cultural hub of the middle east. Want to bet the folks behind it didn't face all kinds of negativity? If they hadn't overcome it, Dubai would just be another port city of little interest.
            That's pretty much what I try to do but I face certain limitations that I can't go into over here. As for Dubai, I'd love to look at it the way you do but you're only talking about the side that's advertised. The city is a joke to the people that live here lol. It's not really where I want to be at all and honestly, if you spent some time here you'd understand why I say so.

            Appreciate the thought though.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi seriousjake,

          I get where you're coming from, but will try and point out some subtle changes in perspective to what you are saying, in order to try and help.

          Originally Posted by seriousjake View Post

          The worst feeling in the world is putting everything you have into something and not understanding why you fail.
          In truth, it's not actually the worst feeling in the world. There are many more things much worse than that. It's just a particularly bad feeling.

          For example, not putting everything you've got into the things you do then realising this when it's too late to have another go is actually a much worse feeling in the long run.

          Or another example, putting everything you've got into something and having it stolen from you, in front of your nose, by someone not worthy to lick your boots. That's worse, but it happens a lot.

          Originally Posted by seriousjake View Post

          It's like nurturing a relationship for years only to have it crumble without a sign. Especially in IM where I'm completely on my own seeing that I can't afford guidance.
          But whether it's business or relationships, you cannot remove this risk. It happens regularly to people. So you either take the risk or cower meekly from the world in order to avoid losing something that you never had to start with and can't take with you when you go.

          As for guidance, it's like you're alone, but not alone - because many others are alone (without guidance) too (we are alone together). But what is the positive outcome of succeeding without guidance?

          You will never worry about being without guidance as much again because once you have done it alone, you realise that you don't and didn't really need it.

          Guidance is very often beneficial, but there are as many helpful guides out there as there are wolves in guide's clothing. How can you tell which is which? Do you get a guide to help you choose a guide? And how do you know that the guide you choose to help you find a guide is not a wolf?

          It might be preferential to have a guide, but you can't have one currently. So face the challenges and hopefully come out of the other side more self-reliant and stronger.

          Do leaders always need a guide? Do leaders come to a standstill if they suddenly lose their guide? Do you need to develop the characteristics of a leader in order to have a lifestyle and benefits better than the average? I think so, therefore this lack of guidance 'problem' you have is actually leadership training - be grateful that you don't have a guide then, because it might cause you to always need one and never become a leader if you did have one!

          Whether it's IM or relationships or life in general, you ARE on your own and the only guide that you should really trust is you. This ties in with what you said above about relationships ending suddenly, without warning or a means of understanding.

          When this happens to people, they often realise that they were on their own all of the time anyway and the feeling of not being alone was just a fleetingly pleasant, but dangerous illusion. A nice, warm, cozy feeling of safety that is far more dangerous than embracing the cold, hard reality of life with gritted teeth on a daily basis. You might get a weathered look about you from the harsh coldness, but you won't get the rug pulled from underneath you so easily, or take a sucker-punch from your blind-spot.

          There is no security, there are no guarantees, no comfort zone, no impregnable fortresses can ever be built, there is no way to predict the future - all that matters is that you spend every day nurturing and optimising the one thing that you will always have, that affects everything in your life and is your most reliable source of guidance - you.

          When you look for guidance externally, you are spending time on something that could be better spent looking inside yourself for the same thing, or even a much better, more reliable, rewarding and character-building version.

          {Big Mike - is that better? }
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    I started IM back in 1998 and it was a lot more difficult back then than it is now. We had zip for tools and training back then. You just have to get used to having the cheese moved on you every few years is all.

    The trick is to keep in mind is that just because someone like Google moves the cheese on you doesn't mean the cheese is gone.

    When telemarketing quit working way back when we moved to email marketing. After a couple of years of that it quit working and we moved to Myspace marketing. When that dried up we went to Ning marketing. After that we got into SEO and social media marketing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Magic Mike IM
      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      I started IM back in 1998 and it was a lot more difficult back then than it is now. We had zip for tools and training back then. You just have to get used to having the cheese moved on you every few years is all.

      The trick is to keep in mind is that just because someone like Google moves the cheese on you doesn't mean the cheese is gone.

      When telemarketing quit working way back when we moved to email marketing. After a couple of years of that it quit working and we moved to Myspace marketing. When that dried up we went to Ning marketing. After that we got into SEO and social media marketing.
      That's interesting... we got started roughly the same time in IM, yet seemingly gave very different answers to the question... although, maybe we aren't so far off...

      Today, my perspective is that it is much easier for me to earn substantial money than ever before... but that's because I'm able to pull from many years of mistakes, successes, learning, etc., so I can spot BS very quickly and also identify real opportunity where it exists.

      However... if I were brand new coming into IM now, I think its more difficult... more to learn, more sites, more niches, more strategies, more lingo to learn, more products, more gurus, more conflicting information, etc.... almost overwhelming for a newbie.

      Just thought our answers were interesting, maybe coming from different points of view...
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        Steven,

        A few ideas for you (it's always easier for outsiders to see possibilities for other people).

        Before I saw Mike's reply I was also going to suggest Kindle.

        1. If your articles are no longer driving traffic what have you go to lose by taking them down from all the directories and repurposing them into books? If you can't do the tech stuff Warriors like DianaHeuser can do it all for you at a reasonable price.

        Apart from Bryan's forum you might want to check out Geoff Shaw's (WF name: opoqo) Kindling membership. Geoff is as prolific as you were in your heyday

        2. You mentioned that for syndication you needed 1,000 word articles. OK, so if all your articles are 500 words, splice two together and you now have 1,500 articles of syndication length.

        3. How about 3 bumper PLR packages?
        Get 1,000 of my best articles for only $97!!!

        Buy all 3 packs for only $197!!!

        Even if you limit it to 100 buyers you can still make between $20k - $30k.


        Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi,

          Thanks to all for the wisdom, opinion and vibes shared in this thread. I plan to make good use of them.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

          Steven,

          A few ideas for you (it's always easier for outsiders to see possibilities for other people).

          Before I saw Mike's reply I was also going to suggest Kindle.

          1. If your articles are no longer driving traffic what have you go to lose by taking them down from all the directories and repurposing them into books? If you can't do the tech stuff Warriors like DianaHeuser can do it all for you at a reasonable price.

          Apart from Bryan's forum you might want to check out Geoff Shaw's (WF name: opoqo) Kindling membership. Geoff is as prolific as you were in your heyday

          2. You mentioned that for syndication you needed 1,000 word articles. OK, so if all your articles are 500 words, splice two together and you now have 1,500 articles of syndication length.

          3. How about 3 bumper PLR packages?
          Get 1,000 of my best articles for only $97!!!

          Buy all 3 packs for only $197!!!

          Even if you limit it to 100 buyers you can still make between $20k - $30k.


          Martin
          Martin, you my friend, are a fricken genius. I would have never thought of
          that.

          Sometimes you have to be able to look at things from the outside (we're
          sometimes too close to the problem) to see things clearly.

          Brilliant!
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          • Profile picture of the author Steve B
            You have several sites doing near 7-figures a year?

            What are you doing here?

            Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Leejeong
      The glory days just began. New websites and platforms recently flooded the web. And expect the unexpected. You have to use your mind to deal with the changes in the web. Whatever Google launch updates, this will not stop or end the online marketing. There are new ways that are being discovered through experimentation. You just have to do it on your own.
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    • Profile picture of the author larryboy03
      I'm fairly new to blogging but I love building websites and working with others online. I see it as a hobby and I write as much as I can. My blog is 3 months old with a PR3 and an Alexa rank of 1.4 million. I have been using guest posting as my backlink method and it works well for me. Although I will be working a lot and still need to spend more time on pushing my posts up the search results.

      I'm new and it seems to be working so far. All of you with more experience can surly create something unique and big!!

      Best of luck
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  • Profile picture of the author NewParadigm
    If you are talking about opportunity gaming the system, that is never sustainable and frankly shouldn't be.

    If you are talking bringing value to people/businesses by bringing them revenue, profits, making their lives easier, strengthening brand/customer loyalty, entertaining them etc... then If anything, there is TOO MUCH opportunity. Things are changing rapidly which creates opportunity.

    Commerce is endless, the opportunity changes forms with various tools etc...

    The real problem? Focusing on getting proficient in just ONE area and running with it. Once you have some authority in just one area, other opportunities of customers wanting to give you money will chase you.
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  • Profile picture of the author thedanbrown
    The internet is the future of all commerce...

    One could argue that it will never be the same because of all the rules, spam, and competition; but the truth is that moving into the future there is more opportunity than ever to make money online because of the increasing awareness and ease that comes along with buying products on the internet.

    Just my opinion...
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  • Profile picture of the author cpwebsite
    I think its a lot harder because their are a lot more people these days where as in the beginning when they were less websites, the "first" websites in their niche could become a lot more popular because for google searches they got relevant replies because they were the only similar site.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by cpwebsite View Post

      I think its a lot harder because their are a lot more people these days where as in the beginning when they were less websites, the "first" websites in their niche could become a lot more popular because for google searches they got relevant replies because they were the only similar site.
      You also didn't have as many people ON the Internet.

      In the early days, not a lot of people were comfortable with buying things
      online. Today, it's hard to find people who are UNCOMFORTABLE with buying
      things online.

      Plus, back then, we had NOTHING. No automation...zip. I remember getting
      my first autoresponder. It was crap, but it was something.

      See, there is good and bad at both ends. It's not a clear cut "today is
      easier or harder." Some stuff is easier, like taking payments and delivering
      products. We didn't have DLGuard back in the stone ages. I had to manually
      create my links with PayPal and deliver by hand.

      And yes, today, the competition is fierce. Sites that would have done well
      10 years ago are total crap now and get nowhere. Even good sites can
      struggle because of the competition.

      But it's easier to make a site now. We didn't have WordPress back then. There
      is almost no excuse not to make a site that looks good today.

      Is it perfect today? Of course not. As Frank said, a lot of collateral damage
      because of the Google hammer. At one time, I was one of the top writers at
      Ezine Articles. I stopped writing because there was no point. The directory
      got hit so hard that the amount of traffic AND syndicators dropped like a
      stone. I've only starting writing again out of boredom and thinking, hell,
      maybe something will click.

      If there is an article directory out there that actually ranks well with Google
      for Internet marketing type articles, I'm there in a flash even if I have to pay
      a yearly subscription fee. But I know they don't exist. Those days are gone.

      So I guess it all comes down to what you mean by glory days.

      Certainly there was nothing glorious about creating a site using HTML,
      using ad blasters to get traffic, and delivering products with an archaic
      system.

      But yeah, it was nice that I wasn't going up against a gazillion people all
      doing the same thing.

      Guess you have to take the good with the bad.
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      • Profile picture of the author Peter Pride
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        You also didn't have as many people ON the Internet.

        In the early days, not a lot of people were comfortable with buying things
        online. Today, it's hard to find people who are UNCOMFORTABLE with buying
        things online.

        Plus, back then, we had NOTHING. No automation...zip. I remember getting
        my first autoresponder. It was crap, but it was something.

        ... [snip] ...

        Certainly there was nothing glorious about creating a site using HTML,
        using ad blasters to get traffic, and delivering products with an archaic
        system.

        But yeah, it was nice that I wasn't going up against a gazillion people all
        doing the same thing.

        Guess you have to take the good with the bad.
        Exactly... I remember the html tutorials on how to create a sales page. Even the pre made sales page would screw up in my html editor. Hours wasted.

        Wordpress plug in that acts as a sales page generator (anywhere from free to $7 to $97 for a really good one).

        Marketers often use the "things aren't going to be the same in 5 years time" in order to sell whatever it is they are selling that day.

        Of course, 5 years later it's something else they are selling and there is only 5 years to go before "big corporations take over".
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      • Profile picture of the author Jordan Kovats
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        If there is an article directory out there that actually ranks well with Google
        for Internet marketing type articles, I'm there in a flash even if I have to pay
        a yearly subscription fee. But I know they don't exist. Those days are gone.
        Steven,

        Save your money on the above idea and invest it into your kindle marketing. My guess is your return would be 10x-100x from Kindle than the article directory. It appears you love to write. This is a natural for you. This will bring the fun and making money back into your life.

        Jordan
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Pride
    Opportunity is still around. The internet is the closest thing to a free market we currently have (no regulation on putting a site up etc).

    If that changes (and it may very well in the future) then we will see this changing.

    Brick and mortar businesses have been around since the beginning of time, but that doesn't stop someone setting up a hot dog stand and building up from there.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Things evolve, radio > TV > internet, the traffic only increases until the next greatest thing happens after the internet (hasn't happened yet).

    Internet traffic doesn't just disappear, it migrates (ex: Myspace > Facebook).
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    Technology - much easier. Creating something that doesn't get immediately knocked off if it is successful - harder. Actually many things that used to work for years ends up getting shut down because the bottom feeders abuse it. So, things that should still work don't.
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  • Profile picture of the author tkhowse
    Here's the way that I see that Google is going....

    Google is moving toward a "semantic web." This means that Google is developing an Artificial Intelligence system that will display results depending on your interests, likes, personalities, etc. In other words, display websites that people actually like & care about.

    If you think that you can just throw up a website, have a halfway descent product and write mediocre articles, then you will be wasting your time. Google's job has always been to display the most relevant results to the end user, and if you can provide a great customer experience on your website and get people talking about it, then Google will reward you.

    Also, Internet marketing is becoming more about the WHOLE CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE - encompassing web usability, analytics, A/B testing, content marketing, strategy, search engine optimization and paid advertising.

    The Internet marketers of the future will now have to think about developing an overall, integrated marketing approach that delights the customer at every point they come in contact with your company. You will need to know your customer inside & out and provide an experience that delights them.

    This is where I see the web going - and it's time to adapt or face the consequences later.
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  • Profile picture of the author tkhowse
    Also - strategies that are currently working well:
    -Solo ads
    -Banner advertising
    -Co-registration
    -Guest blogging
    -Online press releases
    -A/B testing
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonwebb
    Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

    A few years back (2006), I heard Rich Schefren say to Stompernet guests that the internet is going to turn out to be just like 900 numbers or infomercials (Dan Kennedy says the same thing). Since he was talking to an SEO audience, his advice was to bootstrap the business through any means possible but to make sure you build a viable business that is not reliant on cheap/free traffic to sustain itself.

    Do you think it is harder or easier for newbies these days? To me, it looks harder overall. The tools are better and there is more training. But back when I started in 2005, SEO was much easier, PPC was easier, you can get by with a crappy looking site, etc. I started with $30, built my site, and kept upping my investments as time went on. Eventually, my sites were doing near 7 figures per year. Now I've noticed that any new competitor has to come in at a much higher level than when I started. I wonder if I would be able to replicate that success if I was starting today.

    What do you think? Are the barriers to entry larger now?
    any business that doesn't have strong barriers of entry will have saturation, and you can buy a domain, get a free weebly site, and get started making money in a few hours with the right offer(s). With that kind of ease its no wonder why we are having this conversation.

    With that said as long as people have dreams of making it out of the rat race, internet marketing will never die
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  • Profile picture of the author alksense
    Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

    Do you think it is harder or easier for newbies these days? To me, it looks harder overall. The tools are better and there is more training. But back when I started in 2005, SEO was much easier, PPC was easier, you can get by with a crappy looking site, etc. I started with $30, built my site, and kept upping my investments as time went on. Eventually, my sites were doing near 7 figures per year. Now I've noticed that any new competitor has to come in at a much higher level than when I started. I wonder if I would be able to replicate that success if I was starting today.

    What do you think? Are the barriers to entry larger now?
    It depends on which way you're trying to earn...

    I started in 2006 and for me it's now easier then it has ever been.

    When I first started out eCommerce automation was next to impossible (at least in my price range) and every time I would want to "upgrade" my stores I would have to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to web design companies.

    Now I use a CMS that has automation BUILT IN, I use automated datafeeds to submit all of products to shopping engines, I use tools that send my orders directly to suppliers and that upload suppliers products directly to my websites and automatically track inventory.... my workload has decreased dramatically because of advancements in technology.

    It used to take me 4 - 6 weeks to launch a new niche website and I can now do it in 2 - 3 days.... so for my business, there is actually a lower barrier of entry.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I've just got to add this one thing: there have been way too many studies since the turn of the 20th century to back up that the power of positive thinking is VERY real. Double-blind studies with control groups and then some, extending all the way to immense health benefits, financial stability, and a host of other benefits.

    I never used to buy into it when I was younger; today, I'm a big believer in it. Of course, I'm also pragmatic, and just positive thinking alone won't get things done for you. But it's already been proven time and time again that it, and one's attitude towards life, has a huge impact on a person's outcome and quality of life.

    RoD
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    - Jim Rohn
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      I've just got to add this one thing: there have been way too many studies since the turn of the 20th century to back up that the power of positive thinking is VERY real. Double-blind studies with control groups and then some, extending all the way to immense health benefits, financial stability, and a host of other benefits.

      I never used to buy into it when I was younger; today, I'm a big believer in it. Of course, I'm also pragmatic, and just positive thinking alone won't get things done for you. But it's already been proven time and time again that it, and one's attitude towards life, has a huge impact on a person's outcome and quality of life.

      RoD
      Rod,

      I'm also a big believer in the power of positive thinking (though there are still rough days!).

      To naysayers my reply is, "OK, if you don't think positive, what is the alternative?"

      I adapted that from something said by a politician. He was mistaken about something, admitted it and apologised. He was really attacked for this by other politicians but he said,

      "When I do something wrong I apologise and learn from it - what do you do?"

      Martin
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      I've just got to add this one thing: there have been way too many studies since the turn of the 20th century to back up that the power of positive thinking is VERY real. Double-blind studies with control groups and then some, extending all the way to immense health benefits, financial stability, and a host of other benefits.

      I never used to buy into it when I was younger; today, I'm a big believer in it. Of course, I'm also pragmatic, and just positive thinking alone won't get things done for you. But it's already been proven time and time again that it, and one's attitude towards life, has a huge impact on a person's outcome and quality of life.

      RoD
      I agree. Attitude is not only important but critical. If you go through life with
      a bad attitude, you're only making things harder on yourself.

      My friend (won't mention his name) is not a bad looking guy. Yet he's
      approaching 60 and has never even had a long term girl friend. His attitude is
      that nobody wants him and he'll never find anybody. Ironically, he's had girls
      interested in him who he NEVER pursued. Unbelievable.

      Now, me? I'm nothing to look at. I have a lazy eye and have been the object
      of ridicule because of my looks my whole life. If ANYONE had a reason to
      think he'd never find anybody, it was me.

      But, and this was the difference. I did NOT want to spend my life alone. I
      would have rather been dead. So I did everything I could to try to meet the
      right girl who would accept me for me. It was not easy. I had to ask out 142
      girls in my life before I found 2 who would even go out with me. One was too
      old and my mother didn't approve but the other turned out to be my wife of
      now 28 years. We have a 24 year old daughter who is my life and breath.

      If I had the attitude of my friend, I'd still be alone today.

      Imagine being shot down 140 times.

      But just going through life saying, "Oh, everything is going to be great. Life is
      wonderful. I can have anything I want." I don't believe in that. Not without
      actually getting your hands dirty and putting in the work.

      Okay, so maybe I have the wrong impression of this "power of positive
      thinking" stuff. Maybe they're NOT preaching just think good thoughts and
      good things will happen. I don't know. But that's the way it comes off from
      all these videos I've seen. It just sounds like a lot of voodoo to me.

      But make no mistake about it. If you've convinced yourself that your life is
      a mess and will NEVER get better, it won't. Not because of the thinking in
      itself, but because you'll never do a damn thing ABOUT your life.

      I am SURE that once I get into this Kindle thing and do it correctly, that it
      will turn my life around again. But not because of positive thinking but because
      I've done it before. I've gone from broke and almost homeless to building a
      solid business, if only for a half dozen years or so. Okay, so I have to start
      over again. So what? Know how many fortunes Donald Trump lost?

      It isn't the end of the world if you have hard times. I've been there. And not
      just with my finances but with my health.

      For 20 years I was terribly ill. I thought I was going to die any day. On
      some days, I wanted to.

      But I didn't give up. I had too much to live for. So I kept fighting and searching
      for answers to my health problems. You'd think after 20 years I would have
      just given up.

      And then, 2 years and 3 months ago (Yes, I'm keeping track) I found the
      answer to my problems (combination of things) and I have been pain free
      and healthy ever since.

      But it had nothing to do with positive thinking. It was pure desperation and
      wanting to beat this thing. I didn't know if I would. I certainly didn't go
      around saying to myself, "I'm going to be fine. My life will be fine." I went
      around saying to myself, "I have to beat this thing if it kills me." And some
      days I even prayed, something I rarely do.

      I'm sorry. I've been through too much and have had to physically and mentally
      fight through too many things to just believe that if you go through life
      saying "Everything will be fine" that it will.

      But if you've given up on life and don't even try, then yes. You might as well
      just crawl in your coffin and close the lid.

      Because nothing can overcome a defeatist attitude.

      Just ask my friend who's going on 60 and still single.
      Signature
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Steven,

        I think that this part is where some confusion is coming from -

        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Okay, so maybe I have the wrong impression of this "power of positive
        thinking" stuff. Maybe they're NOT preaching just think good thoughts and good things will happen. I don't know. But that's the way it comes off from all these videos I've seen. It just sounds like a lot of voodoo to me.
        Just like any desperate market, there are charlatans. I guess you've encountered those as mentioned above. They are selling the 'easy button' - 'think positive and you can have anything your mind can conceive and believe.'

        They're just jumping on a bandwagon and twisting it for their own gain. But that in itself does not mean that 'being positive' is not one of the most powerful coping strategies known to man.

        For me, it is pretty much explained by this quote -

        'To different minds, the same world is a hell, and a heaven.' Ralph Waldo Emerson.

        You can replace the word 'world' in that saying with job, marriage, country etc. The point of the saying (in my opinion) is to imply that the only difference between the two people is attitude.

        We all have to do things at times that we would rather not. If we remind ourselves continually how much we would rather be elsewhere doing something else, the task is much harder and seems to take longer.

        If we look for positives - EG -

        a) concentrate on the outcome/reward, not the task itself

        b) set ourselves a challenge to do the task in a certain way/time, it distracts the mind from something negative onto something positive/fun.

        Ever worked on a factory production line in a boring job, just to get some wages? Halfway through the day you're sick of it, but you decide to 'see how many of these widgets I can make before leaving time' - purely because it makes the time seem to pass more quickly - again, to me this is positive thinking.

        But when it comes to 'manifesting' and 'wishful thinking', I'm a sceptic too.
        Signature


        Roger Davis
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        But, and this was the difference. I did NOT want to spend my life alone. I
        would have rather been dead. So I did everything I could to try to meet the
        right girl who would accept me for me. It was not easy. I had to ask out 142
        girls in my life before I found 2 who would even go out with me. One was too
        old and my mother didn't approve but the other turned out to be my wife of
        now 28 years. We have a 24 year old daughter who is my life and breath.

        [SNIP}

        But I didn't give up. I had too much to live for. So I kept fighting and searching
        for answers to my health problems. You'd think after 20 years I would have
        just given up.

        And then, 2 years and 3 months ago (Yes, I'm keeping track) I found the
        answer to my problems (combination of things) and I have been pain free
        and healthy ever since.
        Steven,

        Positive thinking means different things to different folks.

        I think of it as being positive you will get the right EVENTUAL (there will be failures, aka lessons, along the way) outcome from your efforts, instead of thinking "that won't work", "that's no good" without even trying anything.

        What I've quoted from your post are, to me, fine examples of positive thinking.

        You were positive that, using your determination, skills and personality, you would find a wife and beat your illness.

        Welcome to the club!!!


        Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          Hi Steven,

          I think that this part is where some confusion is coming from -



          Just like any desperate market, there are charlatans. I guess you've encountered those as mentioned above. They are selling the 'easy button' - 'think positive and you can have anything your mind can conceive and believe.'

          They're just jumping on a bandwagon and twisting it for their own gain. But that in itself does not mean that 'being positive' is not one of the most powerful coping strategies known to man.

          For me, it is pretty much explained by this quote -

          'To different minds, the same world is a hell, and a heaven.' Ralph Waldo Emerson.

          You can replace the word 'world' in that saying with job, marriage, country etc. The point of the saying (in my opinion) is to imply that the only difference between the two people is attitude.

          We all have to do things at times that we would rather not. If we remind ourselves continually how much we would rather be elsewhere doing something else, the task is much harder and seems to take longer.

          If we look for positives - EG -

          a) concentrate on the outcome/reward, not the task itself

          b) set ourselves a challenge to do the task in a certain way/time, it distracts the mind from something negative onto something positive/fun.

          Ever worked on a factory production line in a boring job, just to get some wages? Halfway through the day you're sick of it, but you decide to 'see how many of these widgets I can make before leaving time' - purely because it makes the time seem to pass more quickly - again, to me this is positive thinking.

          But when it comes to 'manifesting' and 'wishful thinking', I'm a sceptic too.
          Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

          Steven,

          Positive thinking means different things to different folks.

          I think of it as being positive you will get the right EVENTUAL (there will be failures, aka lessons, along the way) outcome from your efforts, instead of thinking "that won't work", "that's no good" without even trying anything.

          What I've quoted from your post are, to me, fine examples of positive thinking.

          You were positive that, using your determination, skills and personality, you would find a wife and beat your illness.

          Welcome to the club!!!


          Martin
          Roger, Martin, thanks. OK...you cleared up a few things for me. So I guess I
          am a "positive" thinker in the "realistic" sense and not in the "charlatan"
          sense.

          No, I don't have a defeatist attitude. If I did, I wouldn't still be writing songs
          trying to get one recorded 35 years after my FIRST song. Yeah, I may never
          win that Grammy. Hell, I may never even get a song off the cutting room
          floor (though I came close with Crystal Gale) but I'm not going to quit trying.

          Because if I quit, I can't succeed.

          Wayne Gretzky said it best.

          "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

          I've taken a lot of shots in my life. I've had a crap load of jobs. I've asked
          out more women than Carter has liver pills. I've made more products that
          were total failures than I can count.

          But I've also has some good jobs, have a great wife, and have had products
          that have sold hundreds of copies for months and months.

          Life isn't all roses. You don't always get everything you want, especially
          not by just wanting it.

          But life does become a hell of a lot easier if you understand that the ONLY
          way it gets better is if you don't quit.

          And I guess that's what my life has ultimately come down to. I never quit.

          Now, if that's positive thinking, so be it.

          I tend to look at it more as "after you're dead, it's too late for regrets."

          When I'm gone, I will have NO regrets.

          I can't ask for more than that.
          Signature
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi Steven,

            Yes, that was my point - I think you are a positive person. But like all of us, we can easily swing in and out of it, especially if we are emotional, sensitive and expressive types of people - which incidentally, is a wonderful gift.

            If you scroll back and view some of your earlier posts in this thread, I think you'll see some examples of this.

            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            And I guess that's what my life has ultimately come down to. I never quit.
            My current browser home page is this -

            CreatingMinds - quotes and quotations from the wise on all matters creative

            (It's a great website generally and so is it's sister site, changingminds.org - thanks to Paul Short for leading me there.)

            Try these -

            Persistence

            Attitude

            ...for example.

            Many of the persistence quotes I have read before emphasise that even when there is a general lack of all other required abilities, persistence can beat the others because it is such a valuable attribute.

            ‘Flaming enthusiasm, backed up by horse sense and persistence, is the quality that most frequently makes for success.’ Dale Carnegie

            'Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all.’ Dale Carnegie

            ‘Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.’             Calvin Coolidge

            This forum is full of people who are better at this internet thing than I am. But I'm still here...
            Signature


            Roger Davis
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      • Profile picture of the author Mary Greene
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I agree. Attitude is not only important but critical. If you go through life with
        a bad attitude, you're only making things harder on yourself.

        My friend (won't mention his name) is not a bad looking guy. Yet he's
        approaching 60 and has never even had a long term girl friend. His attitude is
        that nobody wants him and he'll never find anybody. Ironically, he's had girls
        interested in him who he NEVER pursued. Unbelievable.

        Now, me? I'm nothing to look at. I have a lazy eye and have been the object
        of ridicule because of my looks my whole life. If ANYONE had a reason to
        think he'd never find anybody, it was me.

        But, and this was the difference. I did NOT want to spend my life alone. I
        would have rather been dead. So I did everything I could to try to meet the
        right girl who would accept me for me. It was not easy. I had to ask out 142
        girls in my life before I found 2 who would even go out with me. One was too
        old and my mother didn't approve but the other turned out to be my wife of
        now 28 years. We have a 24 year old daughter who is my life and breath.

        If I had the attitude of my friend, I'd still be alone today.

        Imagine being shot down 140 times.

        But just going through life saying, "Oh, everything is going to be great. Life is
        wonderful. I can have anything I want." I don't believe in that. Not without
        actually getting your hands dirty and putting in the work.

        Okay, so maybe I have the wrong impression of this "power of positive
        thinking" stuff. Maybe they're NOT preaching just think good thoughts and
        good things will happen. I don't know. But that's the way it comes off from
        all these videos I've seen. It just sounds like a lot of voodoo to me.

        But make no mistake about it. If you've convinced yourself that your life is
        a mess and will NEVER get better, it won't. Not because of the thinking in
        itself, but because you'll never do a damn thing ABOUT your life.

        I am SURE that once I get into this Kindle thing and do it correctly, that it
        will turn my life around again. But not because of positive thinking but because
        I've done it before. I've gone from broke and almost homeless to building a
        solid business, if only for a half dozen years or so. Okay, so I have to start
        over again. So what? Know how many fortunes Donald Trump lost?

        It isn't the end of the world if you have hard times. I've been there. And not
        just with my finances but with my health.

        For 20 years I was terribly ill. I thought I was going to die any day. On
        some days, I wanted to.

        But I didn't give up. I had too much to live for. So I kept fighting and searching
        for answers to my health problems. You'd think after 20 years I would have
        just given up.

        And then, 2 years and 3 months ago (Yes, I'm keeping track) I found the
        answer to my problems (combination of things) and I have been pain free
        and healthy ever since.

        But it had nothing to do with positive thinking. It was pure desperation and
        wanting to beat this thing. I didn't know if I would. I certainly didn't go
        around saying to myself, "I'm going to be fine. My life will be fine." I went
        around saying to myself, "I have to beat this thing if it kills me." And some
        days I even prayed, something I rarely do.

        I'm sorry. I've been through too much and have had to physically and mentally
        fight through too many things to just believe that if you go through life
        saying "Everything will be fine" that it will.

        But if you've given up on life and don't even try, then yes. You might as well
        just crawl in your coffin and close the lid.

        Because nothing can overcome a defeatist attitude.

        Just ask my friend who's going on 60 and still single.
        =>I see Steve has already started his bestselling Kindle ebook series!

        Cheers,
        Mary Greene

        P.S. If anyone says attitude doesn't matter, consider the equal number of people who wake up despairing they are OR are not married!
        Signature

        Cheers,
        Mary Greene

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  • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
    OK. That's it. After reading this thread, I am going to look into Kindle.

    Steve, thanks for letting us use you as a canvas to hash these arguments out.

    This is one of the best overall threads I have ever read here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Just ask my friend who's going on 60 and still single.
    You make a great point about attitude and I think Roger (Exrat) summarized what I was going to respond pretty succinctly.

    It's either inspiration or desperation that motivates us and in your situation (not wanting to be alone) it was desperation. I've been a part-time dating coach for many years, so I come across this all the time. Whether it's an 18 year old college student or someone who is 60 and has never had a girlfriend. So my hat is off to you for doing what it took to find the woman to spend the rest of your life with.

    And yes, I can imagine being rejected over 140 times. I was a total comic book nerd in high school and must have asked out a ton of girls who all said "no" to me. That motivated me to find out how other guys were getting the girls. But that's another story.

    To get back on topic, I've never viewed any of the past years as "glory days". And I think it all depends on how a person defines what that means. As objective as I can be, though, I think for a newbie it's still tougher to start today. Yes, there are more tools. Yes, there's more automation. Yes, there are more market places and more potential JV partners.

    And that's my point. It's overwhelming!

    I had a really tough time focusing on getting my first online endeavor going 13 years ago because there were so many distractions. Today, it's effing UNREAL how many distractions there are. Sure, the onus of staying focused falls on the person, but it sure isn't easy.

    Look at the War Room. While I think it's an awesome resource, a newbie can easily find it overwhelming in there with the dearth of information, word press themes, free reports, videos, etc. that it can easily lead to paralysis analysis and then they end up doing nothing.

    Even so, the silver lining is that I think there are way more opportunities today to make money than ever before. If you bring focus, self-discipline, and patience, you have a ten fold better chance of making money than someone who doesn't have those qualities (or isn't willing to work on them).

    RoD
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    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
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  • Profile picture of the author michaelcorvin
    The game has changed. I have been in IM for 15 years. And I have made a LOT of money as a marketer. But just like anything in life, the game changes. What I did to make money 15 years ago is not how I do it today.

    So the question...is it harder to make money online today? Yes...can you make more? Yes, the rules have just changed. And I make more today than I ever have.

    Great book to read..Who Moved My Cheese...things change, and you need to change your approach to marketing to change with the market.

    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author WFAlex
      Yeah, I think the barrier to entry is definitely higher nowadays. When I started about 4 years ago, you could still get away with a LOT of crap on Google Adwords, it was the wild west, direct linking still worked and even Adsense arbitrage...only very few policies...nowadays many traffic sources tighten up, they have policies that could fill libraries and the "anti-affiliate attitude" is increasing more and more. But IM will still be around in the next few years and decades, you just gotta adapt.
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  • Profile picture of the author KingMedia
    Glory days are not over, in fact, it's just beginning...

    Old school methods still work and will continue to work. The Internet is an awesome space... low overhead with high returns.

    Work smart - not hard. Know your market, and have realistic expectations. Not what you hear from a $39 product promising "thousands a month".
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  • Profile picture of the author Make Money Ninja
    Internet marketing is forever changing. Those who adapt to new climates will win.

    There is still the same amount of traffic and customers out there. Someone has to get them customers.

    You just have to be better than your competition.

    There is no difference between internet marketing and any field, the ones who work the hardest and the smartest will always win.

    Is it easy? no. But nothing worthwhile is.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rebeccha Haase
    People can have different views. Personally I think, the glory days can never come to an end online. People are yet getting success here. The most important thing to become successful in IM is the "Creativity". The more creative you are in your thoughts, the chances of your success increases.
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  • Profile picture of the author Majin
    I don't think it was more difficult, it's jsut that nowadays the algos are changing fast (for SEO). You have to adapt asap, but when you get it, you get it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raindance
    I'd say that the glory days are over for those entrepreneurs who were able to get away with low quality products and websites. It wasn't any glory for them anyway, because short-cuts only take you so far. Now, the competition is fierce; and you, absolutely, can not survive without quality. Once you have an amazing offer for your prospects, you can make a lot more money than not just 10, but even 5 years ago.

    It has gotten a lot harder to survive in the market, because of the increase of quality players. They realize it fully well that they can only make a name for themselves by being honest and delivering best. Refunds rate might be more today, but sales are exponentially higher as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
      Originally Posted by Raindance View Post

      I'd say that the glory days are over for those entrepreneurs who were able to get away with low quality products and websites. It wasn't any glory for them anyway, because short-cuts only take you so far. Now, the competition is fierce; and you, absolutely, can not survive without quality. Once you have an amazing offer for your prospects, you can make a lot more money than not just 10, but even 5 years ago.
      I agree with this.

      5 to 10 years ago, it was far easier to make money with a half-baked website/product. Now a days, the market has gone professional and you truly need some real beef (both in terms of product and marketing) backing you up to make some serious money.
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  • Profile picture of the author banx63
    I can remember sending direct PPC traffic straight to clickbank offers that converted! And I think this was Adsense.

    It is definitely a lot harder these days to get leads, sales, back end sales and even interaction with subscribers I think.

    But - its got to be for the better no? Its a shame that the goalposts move all the time but that it the ever evolving Internet Marketing chess match that we all play I guess.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by banx63 View Post

      I can remember sending direct PPC traffic straight to clickbank offers that converted! And I think this was Adsense.

      It is definitely a lot harder these days to get leads, sales, back end sales and even interaction with subscribers I think.

      But - its got to be for the better no? Its a shame that the goalposts move all the time but that it the ever evolving Internet Marketing chess match that we all play I guess.
      In a way, this was a good thing. A lot of people who were successful in the
      early days got out completely because they couldn't or wouldn't adapt to the
      way things became. So while you're getting new people coming in, you're also
      losing people.

      I don't know what the numbers are (I doubt anybody really does) but I don't
      notice too much difference between now and say 2006 as far as the amount
      of competition.

      Of course I have no way to verify this nor do I think anybody does, which
      kind of makes it a moot point.

      All that matters is that you're better than the top competitors because it
      doesn't matter if it's 1,000 competitors or 100,000 competitors. Few people
      go beyond page 1 of Google anyway. So what does it matter if there are
      2 million results? Just be better than 1,999,980 and you'll be on page 1 of
      Google.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anton543
    Yes, a lot of people did get out because they weren't willing to play fair. Those who used a lot of black hat techniques (like ShoeMoney) are no longer very successful because they find they no longer can game the system as they use to.
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  • Profile picture of the author D8MM3
    There is a lot more information out there. So many people toting their way of doing things. It can be overwhelming, and it's easy to get lost in the sea of knowledge. It probably is harder to start as a newbie. I am a newbie, and if it wasn't for having someone guide me through this, I don't know that I would even know where to start! The standards are a lot higher now than before, but there is also more opportunity - making it worth the effort. If you have any great tips for us newbies, they will be much appreciated. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    The competion has increased yes, but there's so much more resources to use.
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  • Profile picture of the author sunray
    How do they say it... amateurs compete, professionals create. For real professionals there is never any competition, since it's always marching behind them. And yes, the marchers have all those tools and resources--and about ten million competitors who use these tools with them.

    It's much better to be scouting ahead. The question is: where are the scouts at the moment? What are the new fresh prospects where there are no tools yet--and no competition either?
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  • Profile picture of the author Natlex
    It got way harder. And I think it got hard enough that a lot of people that aren't commited will quit before they reach enough $$ to be focused. It's still possible in both PPC or SEO to make some $$ for sure but... Yes much harder initially. I think it's mostly the initial startup in both time & cost is higher due to higher competition nowadays (and things like Google messing up with old SEO algorithms and very quickly now).
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  • Profile picture of the author DeanJames
    In every year we live, sleep, eat and breathe there will be an abundance of opportunities both online and offline. If you are building a real business, the golden era is 'right now'. The thing about human nature is that hindsight is a beautiful thing. Everyone can look back at a given time or year and say, "We should have done 'X' back then" or "If I was back in 1999 and had my time again I would be rich as Croesus". Work the plan, adapt and GROW. In the future many of us will be saying, "2012 - what a great year that was to start an online business, if only I had.. things are so much harder in 2020". My work here in this thread is done
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  • Profile picture of the author David Hooper
    I think there are as many good opportunities now as there were then, but it's not as easy to anonymously sit at your computer, type out some compelling text, and make money. For the big success, at least in this market, you have to be more willing to put yourself out there.
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  • Profile picture of the author WinstonTian
    Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

    A few years back (2006), I heard Rich Schefren say to Stompernet guests that the internet is going to turn out to be just like 900 numbers or infomercials (Dan Kennedy says the same thing). Since he was talking to an SEO audience, his advice was to bootstrap the business through any means possible but to make sure you build a viable business that is not reliant on cheap/free traffic to sustain itself.

    Do you think it is harder or easier for newbies these days? To me, it looks harder overall. The tools are better and there is more training. But back when I started in 2005, SEO was much easier, PPC was easier, you can get by with a crappy looking site, etc. I started with $30, built my site, and kept upping my investments as time went on. Eventually, my sites were doing near 7 figures per year. Now I've noticed that any new competitor has to come in at a much higher level than when I started. I wonder if I would be able to replicate that success if I was starting today.

    What do you think? Are the barriers to entry larger now?
    True, all ad mediums have a tendency to edge towards
    inflation. It's a universal market force of demand.

    But take into account Moore's Law. Moore's law states that
    the advance of processing power exponentially increases as
    the years go on.

    The Internet is growing not only at a "technological pace",
    but at an "informational & attentional pace".

    Not too long ago, we didn't have stuff like social interactivity
    except on guestbooks. Not too long ago, we didn't have stuff
    like videos, or streaming media.

    Human interaction through the net is going to become more
    closely knitted with the real world in the future. At the moment,
    the Internet's not going anywhere else.

    I highly doubt a saturation point in the whole respect of the
    Internet, but instead, of common advertising tools like Adwords
    etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author MJ Schaefer
      There has never been a better time for building a real online business. Isn't that the dream? I think there is a confusion with get-rich-quick and a true business.

      Take the famous Bum Marketing Method. Writing keyword-savvy articles, submitting them to EZA, profiting with your affiliate link in the bio box. A nice, accessible way to make some dinero for sure, but could that ever truly be considered a real business? If your entire financial existence is dependent on Google and EZA, then it lacks the foundations that a proper business has.

      The same goes for something like Adwords. I remember Chris Carpenter's old ebook, where he described how he was coining it by direct linking to eBay for countries across the globe. Again, great while it lasts, but too dependent on the shifting demands of others (Google, eBay) to be truly future-proof.

      But look. It is insanely easy to set up a website now. Between Wordpress and all of its plugins and themes, you can have a really snazzy, highly-functional website up within a day. Whether it's a blog, an ecommerce site, a squeeze page, a membership site - it is a cinch. Same goes for writing Kindle books, or publishing your own ebook. There are dropshippers, fulfilment services, even Amazon will stock and sell your stuff. There are loads of payment systems out there. Plenty of dedicated affiliate networks with hundreds of thousands of offers to promote if you so wish, or you can upload your own work there for others to push. And there are a million ways to get work done for you, from logos and graphic design to copywriting and techy stuff - freelance websites, Fiverr, the Warrior Forum etc.

      As for traffic? It has never, ever been easier, cheaper or more targeted. Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, forums, blogs, groups - there are massive blocs of pinpoint-targeted traffic out there.

      What we can't do anymore is get a bit of ratty software, enter a keyword, hit submit, and make some cash in complete anonymity. We can't write rubbish articles that are of little benefit to the user.

      We can, however, thrive if we get creative and put something up that is of genuine use to people. The simple "would I use this?" test. That means patience when it comes to producing excellent content and visitor experience. Build it and they will come. It is chucklesome to see people still losing their mind over things like SEO. I mean, if you create a fun website and go to its natural target base, then the SEO should take care of itself. Your base will like the content and ease of use, they will link to it from other related sites; the viral effect will take over, and Google will properly reward you (not that you would necessarily be dependent on them as your traffic would be coming from all over the web).

      Just do something good - it only really has to be one thing - and you can make a ton of money indefinitely.
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      • Profile picture of the author Anonymous Affiliate
        Originally Posted by MJ Schaefer View Post

        I think there is a confusion with get-rich-quick and a true business.

        Take the famous Bum Marketing Method. Writing keyword-savvy articles, submitting them to EZA, profiting with your affiliate link in the bio box. A nice, accessible way to make some dinero for sure, but could that ever truly be considered a real business? If your entire financial existence is dependent on Google and EZA, then it lacks the foundations that a proper business has.
        The truth is that most business get started based on one specific niche approach, and then they either expand or dry out depending on how good management is.

        When you start out, it's impossible to determine how far or how solid your growth will be. That's why it's important to monetize your "edge" as much as you can and for as long as it lasts (like Bum Marketers did), and then gather those acquired resources and knowledge and expand into broader ventures.
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        • Profile picture of the author MJ Schaefer
          Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

          The truth is that most business get started based on one specific niche approach, and then they either expand or dry out depending on how good management is. When you start out, it's impossible to determine how far or how solid your growth will be. That's why it's important to monetize your "edge" as much as you can and for as long as it lasts (like Bum Marketers did), and then gather those acquired resources and knowledge and expand into broader ventures.
          I would agree that is how most of us started out, and how a great majority continue to peddle. But I don't think it is right.

          One of my regrets is not going with SiteBuildIt when I first got into IM. There was a straightforward choice between that and XSitePro. I listened to the voices saying that it was better to have flexibility to make lots of websites, not to put all the eggs in one basket, etc. But I know people who followed the SBI system, utterly focused on their one website, and made a killing. Even if they then moved away from SBI, the fundamentals had been taught well.

          Compare that to those who had dozens or hundreds of spam sites with outsourced, third-rate content deindexed, or article earnings fall through the floor, or whatever else. They may have been a way to earn, but a business should have more safeguarding. The latest crazes may be making money with videos or Pininterest, but I certainly wouldn't bet my mortgage payments of two years' time that any money made from those ventures would still be there. I'd feel a lot more confident if it was a hefty website with excellent content, or an ecommerce store with a list of purchasers.

          The question posed in this thread is "are the glory days over?", and it just strikes me that a broad paradigm shift is required in IM. We have all been conditioned to look for the next shiny thing and, yes, from that perspective it is tougher than ever. But from the perspective of actually building something that is useful and visitor-friendly and bookmark-able and has long-term earning potential, it has never been easier to get your foot in the door. Hell, websites can go viral overnight. Creativity over gaming the system.
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  • Profile picture of the author aceshigh888
    I had a site making money for 10 years. Eventually it went the way of the horse and buggy....Let me tell you a story about the good old days in the wild wild west...... ha ha ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Stuart Walker
    People focus too much on SEO and how easy it used to be to game the syste. I don't care for SEO any more and it doesn't do me any harm, it's just one of many avenues of traffic. Google is NOT the internet remember.
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  • Profile picture of the author mrelk159
    No of course not, with new challanges comes new sucessess.
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  • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
    I agree, the glory days haven't even started yet.

    Right now we are seeing a major change in innovation, and the reality is, many people can't keep up with it. With cloud computing and the speed of computers multiplying 127 times, we're going to see all sorts of new things happening. Right now your own cell phones are more powerful than the computers NASA use to use in the 1970s. To launch men onto the moon. Think about that.

    Imagine a world where you walk into a hospital, and all your details are already on the screen. Your hieght, your weight, your insurance provider, anything a doctor could possibly need to know about you. No more filling out papers. Perhaps even with time, no more doctors.

    Right now engineers are working on technology thats going to revolutionize the medical industry. Its also going to put a lot of people out of work. They are developing programs that can diagnose people better than their own doctors can. And these same programs can come up with more specific, more personalized treatment plans for people.

    I believe over the next 10 years, the entire medical industry is going to turn upside down.

    I believe we're going to have glasses that can take us online and fetch information about people in the blink of an eye. Facial recognition software right in your eye glasses, retina implants... whatever you can think of, I believe its on the way.

    You also need to look at some of the cross monetization strategies that businesses use now and days. Business are becoming extremely advanced in the ways they make money. If you can't adopt to the change, and leverage these things for your own benefit, then yes, the glory days are over for you.

    Keyword: >>YOU<<

    3 characteristics will benefit you in this world more than anything.

    1) Education - It should be diverse and relevant to the technology age of science, computers, and "new age" business models.

    2) Innovation - Its no secret, but creative minded people will fair far better than the sequential thinkers of the past. Things are moving from linear, sequential approaches.. to systematic and integrated approaches (or "systemic" if you wish).

    3) Awareness/Motivation - You must be aware that time is going to change things whether you like it or not. And you need to be motivated to stop complaining, and start changing with the times. That means more education, more learning, more thinking outside the box than ever before. More ability to adopt and change. I'm not telling you to go back to college, I think that would be stupid honestly. But in a world where computers are becoming obsolete every single year, so to you are your skills.

    We are moving from "capitalistic idealism" to "capitalistic intellectualism". Or as one bright chinese man said recently, "perfect capitalism". Where you can go into stores now, and immediately go online to see the REAL value behind a product.

    The ironic thing is, one would suspect this to be the best time for marketers and entrepeneurs. Not a time to give up, but a time to grow. A time to take advantage of the great resources technology provides for you.

    When I look at how many businesses still don't have websites, or know how to use the computer, that tells me that now is a better time than ever to master these types of skills. Those who fail to adapt, fail to survive. So the way I see it:

    1) Adapt and survive.
    2) Stagnate and die.

    The choice is up to you. =]
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  • Profile picture of the author PalmTreeJack
    The "glory days" of making money quickly and easily based around junk content and SEO tricks are definitely winding down. Personally, I think that's a very good thing. For too long too many lazy a-holes have been making a killing by gaming the system and providing no real value to anyone.

    But there will always be a market for high-quality websites and products based around valuable content and/or truly useful services. And as the number of web users continues to explode the opportunities will only increase for anyone who wants to put in real effort.
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  • Profile picture of the author webmarket
    I have been at this for more years than I care to admit to and there is no doubt at all that it is a lot harder to get established and start making money today. That said, it is certainly not impossible to build up a successful online business from scratch, but it is going to take longer that it did just a few short years ago and many of the tools which once worked will now do more harm than good.

    I believe the secret for newcomers lies in deciding just what sort of online business you wish to start and then confining yourself to just that one business. It will take time and you will almost certainly go through several points at which you say "this is not working". Don't be discouraged. As long as you have done your homework and are nor flogging as dead horse your business will succeed - even though it always takes longer than you ever imagined.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rhys Davies
    Internet Marketing has only got harder for the people who did it wrong in the first place.

    Was it "easier" to rank in Google 5 years ago, yes. That's only because it was much easier to manipulate your backlinks. I remember when you could buy a few directory links and be ranking in the top 10.

    I don't know anyone who has built a business around proper SEO and real marketing complain about Google Panda or Google Penguin etc. You only ever worry about those things if you're doing things wrong in the first place.

    The easy "wrong" way of doing internet marketing is coming to an end and people are mistaken it for becoming harder.

    Another thing people are saying is getting worse; email open and click through rates.

    Just look at 90% of the subject lines, the same old "my best friend has just revealed his #1 secret" body text and the flat-out crappy products people promote... and that explains that one.

    You used to be able to get away doing the above, but no longer. Doesn't mean it's getting harder.
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  • Profile picture of the author clintmyers
    It's easier because of more training but harder to pick a niche and stick with it. All too easy to get sidetracked with all the information. More and more every day.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I think that when you ask a question like this you get what you're looking for.

    The way you phrased the OP was on the premise that there is such a thing as 'harder'.

    I don't believe it's any harder now than when I started in 1997, for the same reason as Matt stated earlier - the game hasn't changed, just the rules get updated as technology moves on.

    People don't change much over a few decades, their habits and actions change based on their environment but their motivations don't.

    Sure - if you focus on a snapshot of what tools or methods were available at one point compared to another you will find differences, but those are not what make the difference in your success.

    If you forget all the different short term strategies designed to game the system in various ways then you end up back to psychology and salesmanship.

    If you can find a group of people with an immediate need/desire and put a suitable offer in front of them - you will make money. That hasn't changed.

    Sure maybe you can't do it in the form of 10 million Adsense pages with the push of a button, but just because spammy methods always have a short lifespan doesn't mean marketing is getting harder.

    If anything - since all the Google updates marketing is now easier - because all the people who call themselves marketers but don't actually have a clue what they're doing are now dropping back out of the game.

    Sound marketing still gets great results - just like always.

    Andy
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  • Profile picture of the author chadbmmo
    For those of you who think this is the beginning of the end I'm sorry to hear that. As far as the rest of us I think that what doesn't Kill you makes you stronger and some obstacles are what keeps us all on our toes and hungry. I am new to the game but have seen great success from family members who have just started in the industry within the last 12 months. In the words of Forrest Gump "that's all I have to say about that"... GOOD LUCK ALL AND LETS MAKE MONEY TOGETHER
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  • Profile picture of the author Searchlabmedia
    I think back to the days when I was just screwing around online, not really doing much, and I read stories about how people were making $25k a month by using software. WHOA!

    I wish I would have been more focused back then, but NOW things have definitely changed. You actually need to WORK on your business now.

    Do I wish it was easier than it is now? YES of course, I always want easy. But right now while most of my friends are working at some stupid job, stuck in traffic for 45 minutes to an hour, and spending hardly any time with their children.

    And.....

    I am at home, wearing a t-shirt and shorts, waiting for my kids to get home so I can hang out with them.

    Internet Marketing can be hard at times, but it is very rewarding.

    Fight On,

    Dave Cisneros
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  • Profile picture of the author andyredsox
    Yeah, it's quite difficult nowadays to make a website popular than couple of years ago.

    A lot of changes and innovations happened.

    However, there are always ways to rise to the top.

    Answers are just out there, waiting to be discovered.

    Let's be open with new ideas and possibilities to keep the business going.
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  • Profile picture of the author cupcakemonster
    Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post


    Do you think it is harder or easier for newbies these days?

    What do you think? Are the barriers to entry larger now?
    Hmmm. Good question. I'm a newbie - bought some domain names at the beginning of this year and have been steadily learning how to make a website. I've built 2 so far and made about $1500 or so in the past few months. Not anything to write home about, but cool to see that it works.

    I think that yes, you're right in that there are so many tools that make it easier to get started in the online world. I only invested a few dollars for my domain names and a little more for hosting. Oh, and a premium theme. And a content slider. The overall investment has been a little over $100.

    What is harder now, I think, is not just the competition but the abundance of information out there. For me, it's difficult because when I'm working on something (content creation), I also feel like I should be doing other things (like backlink building) and there is sooooooo much to learn about (on page SEO, off page SEO, link building, list building, email marketing, etc. ) and it can be mighty overwhelming.

    Still, I think the glory days are far from over and that the online world is just becoming like the real world - it's not that easy, but there will always be opportunity.
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  • Profile picture of the author connorbringas
    Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

    A few years back (2006), I heard Rich Schefren say to Stompernet guests that the internet is going to turn out to be just like 900 numbers or infomercials (Dan Kennedy says the same thing). Since he was talking to an SEO audience, his advice was to bootstrap the business through any means possible but to make sure you build a viable business that is not reliant on cheap/free traffic to sustain itself.

    Do you think it is harder or easier for newbies these days? To me, it looks harder overall. The tools are better and there is more training. But back when I started in 2005, SEO was much easier, PPC was easier, you can get by with a crappy looking site, etc. I started with $30, built my site, and kept upping my investments as time went on. Eventually, my sites were doing near 7 figures per year. Now I've noticed that any new competitor has to come in at a much higher level than when I started. I wonder if I would be able to replicate that success if I was starting today.

    What do you think? Are the barriers to entry larger now?
    7 figures..really?
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  • Profile picture of the author BarberShop
    This question (OPs) was on my mind when I returned to Internet Marketing at the end of this year. Where I would start now is with an Internet Marketing free of SEO and PPC should be flushed with it too. The focus instead is on building a real business, delivering needed value in the marketplace. If people find me through search engine or Adwords, fine. But not my focus. I wouldn't lose sleep if that 1-5% traffic drops on my Analytics report. And to play it safe, I'm keeping my "day job".

    Check my signature below for an SEO-free Traffic.
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  • Profile picture of the author BarberShop
    Question about Kindle Forum:

    Do I pay the $10 full membership or the $40 one?


    Question about Kindle Marketing:

    If I can't write, I can still play the game right? Outsource writing and just do the marketing side?
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  • Profile picture of the author Benjamin Ehinger
    Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

    A few years back (2006), I heard Rich Schefren say to Stompernet guests that the internet is going to turn out to be just like 900 numbers or infomercials (Dan Kennedy says the same thing). Since he was talking to an SEO audience, his advice was to bootstrap the business through any means possible but to make sure you build a viable business that is not reliant on cheap/free traffic to sustain itself.

    Do you think it is harder or easier for newbies these days? To me, it looks harder overall. The tools are better and there is more training. But back when I started in 2005, SEO was much easier, PPC was easier, you can get by with a crappy looking site, etc. I started with $30, built my site, and kept upping my investments as time went on. Eventually, my sites were doing near 7 figures per year. Now I've noticed that any new competitor has to come in at a much higher level than when I started. I wonder if I would be able to replicate that success if I was starting today.

    What do you think? Are the barriers to entry larger now?
    Yes, I think it's more difficult. I can remember when you could submit articles to Ezine Articles and get them listed at the top of Google for your keyword phrases. Those days are over, but there are still many ways to go about getting traffic and building a viable business.

    I think it's harder, but there are also many ways to make it happen without spend a ton of money to get started.

    Benjamin Ehinger
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  • Profile picture of the author 07
    Well, I just think that glory days are just starting out, because its a growing market and people spen more and mnore online, and buy more and more online, different social networks pop-up and grow like crazy, etc. I think its only a beginning, lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author kbrady
    Very interesting thread. I loved seeing all the perspectives. I believe that successful entrepreneurs have to adapt as the market changes. What worked 10 years ago certainly does not work today, but new opportunities always present themselves. Someone is always making a ton of money. It is just a matter of concentrating on the right thing at the right time...
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  • Profile picture of the author markcr
    Banned
    MUCH harder.

    It's saturated now. Pre 2004 was a lot easier I.M.H.O.
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  • Profile picture of the author ceenote100
    I think it all depends on the newbie. Many people start IM but not all of them will stick with it due to the results not being fast enough. IM takes time and hard work.
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