Am I Being A Mrs Wombat Or Do I Have A Point Here?

by 149 replies
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Okay, something has been bugging me a long time and I just have to ask
because it's driving me crazy. I'm open to any criticisms that anybody has
on my feelings on this as I'm trying to now live by Paul Myers latest thread
on listening to feedback.

I'm sure you see it too...the thread titles with horrible grammar and questions
inside that are just as horribly worded.

This problem, I also see in emails sent to me from marketers who are trying
to sell me something.

Now I know, I should just look at the content of the message and decide if
I think it can help me or not.

But I can't do it. To me, if a person can't use proper grammar (and I'm
not talking about an occasional slip up) then they lose all credibility with
me.

Here is where I am going with this, so hang in there.

I consider myself an average person. Therefore, if I feel this way, is it not
safe to assume that maybe the majority of people feel this way?

Point is, if my assumption is correct (and I'm not saying it is) isn't using
poor grammar going to ultimately hurt your business?

For the poorly worded thread titles...won't most people ignore them?

For the poorly worded emails...won't most people stop reading?

For the poorly worded sales pages...won't most people stop reading?

Now I know, what's "bad grammar" to one person may be acceptable to
another. In other words, if I see one or two blatantly obvious mistakes
that show me that this person has little command over the English
language, I'm just going to stop reading...period.

Others, however, might have a higher threshold for pain. Maybe a couple,
or even a few mistakes, won't turn them off.

My ultimate question is, at what point are we being a Mrs. Wombat and
at what point are we being reasonable in our expectations.

I don't want to consider myself an elitist in this matter, but if I'm being
one, let me have it. I can take it.

But some of the stuff I see at this forum makes me want to cringe.
#main internet marketing discussion forum #mrs #point #wombat
  • I so agree. The occasional slip up is acceptable, but some of the stuff I see really puts doubts in my mind. It may not reflect on the marketer's knowledge, but to me seeing sloppy grammar makes me wonder about the care taken in any work done by that person.
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  • Food for thought: Some folks on this forum have little command over the English language because it's their second (or third... or fourth...) language.

    Cheers,
    Becky
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    • Becky, I, more than anybody (having come from an urban community)
      understand that. But unfortunately, we live in an English based world and
      we expect, right or wrong, people to have a decent command of the
      English language.

      My wife is a school teacher in an urban school and she cringes everyday
      at some of the grammar she has to endure. The excuses given?

      It's how they were brought up.

      Maybe, but the majority (again, I'm guessing here) don't care how you
      were brought up or where you came from. They're going to judge you on
      their expectations.

      Not fair?

      Maybe. But that is, I think anyway, the reality.

      That's what I'm trying to get at here.

      Is that the reality or are people more tolerant than I think?
    • Becky

      Some of the worst grammar I've seen here is not from those who have English as a second language. The shocking ones tend to be from Americans, ones whose surnames lead me to believe their first language should be English.
  • Here's my take on this grammer and spelling issue:

    If you've fallen over a cliff and managed to grab a root to stop you plunging to your death, but the root is slowly pulling out of the cliff face. Would you:

    1) Take the hand of an ugly man with broken teeth and smelly breath who has leaned over the edge and offered to pull you to safety?

    Or...

    2) Wait for the handsom, elegantly dressed man with a powerful body who is standing with his hands folded and giving you a lecture on the perils of walking too close to the edge of a cliff?

    IMO - as long as the information is good I don't care how bad the person's spelling and grammar is
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    • Collin, I disagree 100% This is not a valid comparison. Hanging from the root is a life or death situation. Buying a product off a website is not. I've got time to comparison shop, think about what I'm doing, question whether or not I really have the money to spend, any number of things.

      The fact is, sites with poor grammar and spelling rank lower on my credibility meter and likely on other's as well. Now, if your market is those that wouldn't know spelling and grammar if it bit them in the ass, well, then it probably doesn't matter for that market.

      There is a promo just this morning that is being pitched that has mistakes on the long page. One above the fold. Why not just just put a click away button right there taking them back to google so they can find a site that doesn't look amateurish and does look trustworthy. That would be serving the customer.
    • I'd be tempted to wait for 2).

      Kidding...Excellent analogy. Plus some people are dyslexic and for the sake of a forum post may not have time to spell check etc.

      For a website, however, I think good grammer and spelling are paramount.
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    • Alexa, I hope so too. Unfortunately the US keeps passing laws keeping the dullards safe and from their stupidity culling them from the herd. I put helmet laws, seat belts and other laws where generally if you disobey them, your only adding more risk to your own life in that category.

      I also think people should have the freedom to add more risk to their lives, providing they aren't risking others lives with that action. Let the stupid extricate themselves from the gene pool.
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  • Speak to your customers.

    Remember the grant CPA site (Chedda's Blog, I think)? It no doubt worked because it was talking to the individuals whom it was targeting.

    Yes, I agree that you should check your spelling and use correct grammar. But sometimes the situation calls for breaking rules.

    Sentence fragments, for example.

    Short attention spans and low average reading comprehension often dictate more concise writing at the cost of proper grammar.
  • Steven,

    Language evolves, grammar is applied in
    different ways depending upon the context
    in which it is used.

    The Warrior Forum obtains its members from
    around the world.

    There are multiple cultures, languages and
    educational backgrounds, let alone all the
    other differences.

    The forum's diversity is one of its greatest
    strengths.

    In a discussion it is likely that you will use a
    different style of conversation than the style
    that you would use in a formal setting.

    Thread titles and the contents of posts are
    often created on the fly, it's unlikely that
    any proof reading is done.. they are posted
    in the moment.

    Product creation is a completely different
    context and it would be unfair to evaluate
    the potential worth of a product purely
    based on the impression created by a number
    of forum posts.

    John
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    • Aye, lang may yer lum reek.
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    • John,
      You are so right. This forum is multi-cultural and we are dealing with people from around the world. People with different ways of expressing themselves, and even different ways of spelling. (is it "program" or "programme?")

      I don't really care about a person's sentence structure or their spelling skills if they are giving me information that could, for instance, help me become a millionaire.

      After all, there are millionaires who can't spell forem--forim--foram--well whatever. My point is, what difference does it make? We weren't all born with a silver dictionary in our mouths. And for those who were, "kudos to you."

      I think building relationships, friendships and business success....and sharing helpful information is what this forum is all about.

      I could be wrong... but have a great day anyway!!!
  • There are much more important things in life to worry about than minor grammar infractions. (as long as it doesn't look like it was written by a 5th grader)

    If I'm buying a book on grammar and punctuation, then I care.
  • Steven...

    Please do not be offended by what I have to say.

    I think you have more time than normal to bother about these things and it in turn is hurting you... Let me explain.

    These days I rarely spend time on the main discussion forum. And I read posts on threads started by a very small group of people, expecting to draw some useful conclusions out of it. Or at least find something useful. But that's not happened today in this post.

    By making this post you are proving to the world how much you believe in and live by the conventional code.

    And doing that you have just alienated a HUGE population of the planet.

    While I agree I won't like to read poor grammar that reflects carelessness on the writers' part, I won't stop reading your emails etc. unless I feel I am just wasting my time reading them and not getting any value out of it.

    Being pro English is good, but being anti-rest is bad. And who told you an Indian with poor English can not afford your $ 2k coaching program?

    -Lakshay
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    • Language is all about communication. The better one writes, the better they can communicate their message to the reader. When spelling errors and grammatical issues become a distraction from the message, the ability to communicate that message is downgraded.

      I find myself much more forgiving when the errors are because someone is trying to communicate in a language that is not native to them. I mean, if I tried to communicate in Chinese or Arabic, my efforts would be laughable.

      I do think it is fairly easy to tell though when someone is just not knowledgeable or is lazy in their writing efforts. Both of those faults lead me to not put much credence in what is being said or in fact not read it at all. It doesn't negatively affect my day, I just move on to the next post or message and the person writing that way just lost an opportunity to communicate with me. If that is okay with them... it is okay with me too.
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  • Steven,

    You write for a living.

    Your wife is a school teacher.

    You are anything BUT the average person when it comes to things like proper grammar

    But I digress...

    Personally, if it is something that is ultimately horrible all the way through a sales letter or post, I tend to move on without a second look. But other than that, I simply consider it "different" to how I would write.

    At the end of the day, I don't know HOW it would affect conversions (if it was a sales letter). I suspect it depends on whether your customer base has a good command of the language or a fourth grade command. And if you resonate with them.

    I have not tested this though...

    Mike
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    • Wait a minute. You're stuff is full of horrible grammatical errors and spelling. Oh sorry, that's a different Mike. Forget I said anything. (Quietly walks off whistling and pretending he saw something very interesting across the room).
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    • Same here.. unless it's painfully unreadable (and unfortunately I've seen that quite a bit here, on other forums, and occasionally in "sales copy") I usually don't let it bother me too much.

      On the other hand, if I've read something twice and I still don't have the slightest clue what you're trying to say I'll probably save myself the headache and just ignore it.. lol
  • Yes, I agree.

    The standard of English in the general population, particularity the young, has fallen drastically.

    A simple guide to English grammar and correct usage would probably do very well in digital form if it was written in an accessible way by a knowledgeable author.

    Then again, grammar and punctuation seem to have become optional extras for the masses, so perhaps I am mistaken. The possessive form is disappearing quickly from sales copy and marketing literature, for example.

    That didn't help much at all, did it?

    Kind regards,
    NetOpps2.
    PS I continue to write all my "stuff" in standard British English (BrE) despite the fact that American English (AmE) is the de facto standard now, so I am swimming against the tide myself.
  • One problem is that British English and American English are different. I was talking to Tiff one day, and she said about one of her pet hates in ebooks. I said, "I always do that, because that is correct in the UK." I had no idea that it was different in the US, and not a single person had ever pointed it out to us.

    Sometimes, the errors are not errors at all, just a different country doing things differently.

    I always write my own books in British English, so we will have words like, flavour, favourite etc is it wrong, that's the way to spell these words.

    Check or Cheque, for a Brit the word Check doesn't mean something you write to pay a bill.
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    • Actually this is true for Canadians too, and many people don't realize it. (I guess because we are under "british rule"?)

      But we are taught in school the correct spelling of colour is NOT (the US version) color... which is standard in html LOL (Eesh - imagine how we have fun with this one!)

      And then there's "zee" verses "zed" (speaking wise...)
      and yes, cheque vs. check...

      and SO many more.

      I was always great at English/Grammar/Spelling in school but I learned a few things online:

      1) yes, the world looks (now) at mostly US english.. heck, even MS Office, even buying a Canadian version, automatically defaults to US English...

      2) I can't remember which sales letter 'guru' talked about it (Yanik or Joe Vitale maybe?) but people write the way they speak.... and often people find it *easier* to read and follow points and principles when they are written the same way as they would be spoken (conversational vs. "grammatically correct")

      Steven, I suppose it maybe determines just how extensive your thoughts of proper grammar are.

      I have spellcheck and grammar turned OFF in MS office because it drives me absolutely bonkers when I write LOL - (rarely get the spelling mistakes, but it flags grammar, even when it IS correct, or as someone else mentioned, INTENDED to have a short point, not a "full proper" sentence).

      My biggest pet peeve is punctuation and spelling.

      I can read any novel and find spelling errors, it drives my husband nuts...

      but there's something I learned to remember when I read things, as has slightly been mentioned here...

      With people who have English as their second, third or fourth language, maybe you haven't realized this too:

      Some words just AREN'T in their original language.

      There was an interesting video a friend sent me yesterday... it shows in there how much the english language has grown... (Video is a "did you know?" YouTube - Did You Know?)

      There are 540,000 words in the English language... 5 times the number since Shakespeare.

      English is my husband's fourth language (Dutch #1, Suriname Tongue/TakiTaki #2/3) - you'd never know it because he speaks fluent English with virtually no accent (Came to Canada when he was 12).

      BUT...

      He said one of the hardest things he had to learn was how many MORE words the English language uses just to say the same thing vs. other languages.

      So... if some people (I'm talking ones that don't have Eng. as their first language) skip a word or maybe don't sound "grammatically correct", perhaps this is why?

      My hubby has improved since I've been married to him (going on 19 yrs :p) but believe me, its taken a lot of time to even tweak some of his wording LOL! And to this day, spelling is his WORST, and when he does typing of any kind,
      a) he's very short/to the point/almost abrupt (and in complete sentences)
      b) he then gets me to edit

      Anyway.. sorry for rambling on... I agree - but I guess to what point do we expect perfection, when most aren't teachers or may have had less training?

      And lets face it - some people just have other strengths.. i..e, technical math/programming is my hubby's best strengths - but spelling NOT. Me - I'm the other way around.

      I do agree though, that if this is the issue for people, they should really consider having an editor if its intended to be more formal (like a sales letter).

      Just my 2 cents.

      Amber
  • If I stopped buying products based on the emails and sales letters I see, I wouldn't be buying much of anything at all.

    This includes some of the well known marketers, too. I've just learned to accept the fact there will be times when it will be used unknowingly, as well as intentionally.

    When I was growing up, bad grammar was some old lady that wouldn't give you candy.

    I don't give it too much thought if I believe I'm getting exactly what I'm paying for, and that's accurate information.

    It's much harder for me to overlook the vulgar language which some seem to believe will put them more in tune with "everyday people".

    Now that my friend, will make me think before purchasing. Why? Because if they use that type of language to promote their wares, you can bet it will be sprinkled lovingly throughout the product.

    But hey, that's just me.
  • Written English -- to be able to deliver it's original intent to
    the recipient is in itself an art form. And there aren't that
    many artists of the language.

    I know where you're coming from but even a person who
    has bad command of the written word doesn't mean that
    he has poor concepts of making money.

    Someone whose website Alexa ranking may not be within
    100,000 but is making way more money than one that is
    also exists.

    So... I personally never contend too much with how badly
    a person communicates - however, if it does get too bad,
    I'll just unsubscribe.

    My $0.02

    Asher
  • It only matters when Paul Myers is around..

    Not that he would actually have a problem with it (I think), but I do, only when he's around

    Peace

    Jay
  • I can forgive awkward grammar or the occasional odd sentence structure, since I realize that the Internet is a world wide community which speaks many different languages. However, spelling mistakes strike me as laziness on the part of the writer.

    With all of the spell checkers available, it really only takes a second to check one's spelling when one is using a computer. If a person doesn't take that extra second to make sure their message is coherent, why should I take time to read what they are attempting to write?
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    • Becky, I know people for whom English is indeed a second or third language. And often their command (or at least usage) of grammar is better than my own because they were drilled in it when studying the language.

      It was the same when I studied German back in high school and later got the chance to speak with a native speaker of German. His everyday usage was far more casual than my memorized proper structures.

      When we switched to English, his grammar was better than mine, although he occasionally slipped in some odd sentence structures when he was translating in his head as he spoke...

      Who was it that said the Americans and the Brits were two peoples separated by a common language?

      Steven, to address your original post, I tend to separate things like forum posts (done on the fly) from considered writing (products, sales letters, etc.).

      In casual writing, I have a much higher tolerance for typos and such. I do worry about the growing trend of reducing eveything to text-speak, though. It's one thing when you only have 20 or 30 characters and every letter requires several keystrokes. It's another thing when it's done out of laziness or habit.

      With considered writing, I don't worry about the occasional typo. When the mistakes become enough to distract me from the communication, I draw the line. I'm already making an effort to read the piece, and I shouldn't have to try to guess what the writer was trying to type.

      But usually, my inner Wombat doesn't rear its head until I try to read the newspaper. I drive my wife nuts muttering about nitwit writers and idiot editors and the demise of proofreading...
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  • Hi, Mrs Wombat,

    You just keep wombatting away - there are far too few people who either care for or practice good grammar today.

    Educational institutions in the western world are suffering a surfeit of administrators and a deficit of educators to the extent that the final results of an educational session are based upon how well the teachers want to feel that they have done rather than on how well the pupils have done.

    While wild and inaccurate claims are accepted by the public at large as a reliable indicator of the quality of the product of our schools, we, the people, will seem more dumb by the day.
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  • I've had a reputation as a grammar and spelling "nazi" since pre-pubescence. I've grown more tolerant with age but only in that I will keep my chagrin over poor usage to myself. I'll "grin and bear it" now instead of leaping to correct others.

    I am not a college graduate and English was my least favorite subject in school. I still can't tell you what a "dangling participle" is. It sounds vaguely erotic to me.

    I attribute my own modest mastery of English to a lifelong, insatiable appetite for reading. Consequently, I assume that people who have less developed language skills don't read enough. If I suspect that they eschew reading, I'm unlikely to be interested in anything they write as I assume, correctly or not, that they can't possibly have any real depth of knowledge about their subject.

    As for those for whom English is not their "lingua mater", I make huge allowances as their English is usually far superior to my Hindi, Mandarin, Tagalog or whatever...but only when I am in THEIR country.
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    • Paul, would it be forward of me to ask to see your dangling participle?
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    • Compared to the English grammar of 100 years ago the
      language we write and speak is a lot easier to understand -
      it has evolved.

      I like to get the grammar right myself - but what really
      matters is DO YOU MAKE YOURSELF UNDERSTOOD?

      If the language skills are poor and the thinking comes off
      as disorganized, that can't be good for business, can it?

      Some of us are (as writers) more aware of how others
      read and understand our stuff - hence things like the
      use of the hard-return in forum-posts so the reader's
      eye doesn't have to travel as far.

      In print, bad writing is often painful to read - but it
      doesn't always stop a writer from getting his or her
      point across. Dan Brown, mega-million-selling author,
      is a great example: his prose is hackneyed and
      lifeless, yet he has stories to tell and people like them.
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    • As a long-time appreciator of the English language, I'm a wombat from way back. I often pass over questions on forums or Yahoo Answers simply because the writer would not or could not communicate clearly. In a business like ours, where clear written communication is central to what we do, it's absolutely essential to summon your best grammatical skills-- or at least use spell check.

      Yet, one of my favorite online marketers and a woman for whom I have great respect steadfastly refuses to use apostrophes. Every time I see a "dont" I want to correct it, but she's been very successful in spite of her grammatical handicap.

      Apparently, paragraph construction is not being considered here, though. I notice several posters, including Steve, like to begin an new paragraph for each sentence. I find this gets tiresome to the eye after awhile. I'm sure I'd have gotten a bad grade on an English paper for doing that in school. Maybe I missed the joke.

      Perhaps even we wombats need to reexamine our writing skills now and then.
    • Steven

      Woop de doo. Another grammar thread.

      You should know by now that it's almost pointless to insist on correct grammar in forum posts.

      Like blog posts, texts and tweets, they're informal channels of communication. If you were to continually correct someone in a bar or coffee shop conversation, for instance, it would come across as irritating at best.

      Let it go. Or, if it's so annoying, just ignore the thread.

      In a professional capacity, obviously writers needs to display competence in their craft. The key is to know your audience. And here's where I disagree with Bev.

      If a writer is predominantly communicating with the American market, it's just courtesy to use forms of language and spelling considered normal and correct in that market, as long as it doesn't detract from the essence of the message.

      I have no problem using American spellings and phraseology in webcopy or articles aimed at the US readership. And I would ensure that any salescopy aimed at that market conformed to their way of speaking.

      Writers working in the IM field are usually looking to elicit some kind of action (often monetary) from their readers. This is much easier to accomplish if their audience identifies and empathises with what is written.

      Fiction writers and academics may be able to afford a little more self indulgence.


      Frank
  • Definitely agree with what you are saying Steve. I received an email only last week with this in it:

    "Your not a twitter genius? I bet you can be..."

    My reaction: Unsubscribe.
  • Wombats untie!

    If I could thank a post more than once, I'd definitely do it for your post, Steven.

    Curtis
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    • It's a flippin' spell checker.

      There are plenty of customers who are turned off by bad grammar, can someone explain why a marketer would NOT run their copy through one?

      Defiance? Laziness? It takes 10 seconds. I don't get it.

      Right or wrong, we're treated (to some extent) based on how we present ourselves. Or you can be that person who wears the ripped Pearl Jam t-shirt to a job interview and complain that you got judged by "The Man".
  • Steven,

    Grammar is important where it is important, but not everywhere.

    Dangling participles and misaligned gerunds are found throughout classic American literature.

    Madison avenue used "street grammar" for a variety of products "Winstons taste good like a cigarette should" for a classic example.

    Mark Twain was always belittled because of his grammar.

    On the subject of grammar he stated:

    You may say a cat uses good grammar.

    Well, a cat does -- but you let a cat get excited once; you let a cat get to pulling fur with another cat on a shed, nights, and you'll hear grammar that will give you the lockjaw.

    Ignorant people think it's the noise which fighting cats make that is so aggravating, but it ain't so; it's the sickening grammar they use.


    Mark Twain also said: There are two times in a man's life when he should not speculate: when he can't afford it, and when he can.


    Mark Riddle
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  • "They was great."

    This does not sound right, does it? Instinctively, you know this. It does not sound quite right to the ear. If you have a basic understanding of grammar, however, you would realise instantly that the subject does agree with its verb, and that therein lies the problem with the sentence (a unit of complete sense).

    Grammar is not about being picky per se. It is about communicating clearly. If there were no grammar "rules", we would invent them. Language needs a working structure or it would collapse into nothingness.

    Also, if I may, I would like to explain the difference between its and it`s; I see this same mistake being made over and over again. It is simple. "It`s" is a contraction, and it stands for "it is" or "it has" e.g. it`s my favourite (= it is my favourite).

    "Its", meanwhile, is a possessive determiner e.g. The cat was so cute; he stroked its (own) back. Again, it is simple.

    On the other point, British English is not that different to American, but it is significantly different in some aspects of spelling, usage and punctuation. See the Google article on British English vs. American English.

    For example, in American English ALL punctuation comes within quotation marks (.") but in British English it does not (".) So, a British student writing an essay or "paper" would be corrected on his punctuation in the US and vice versa for an American student in the UK.

    My tips are to to be aware of the differences and to be consistent in your own usage. Do not in any circumstances chop and change within an article, for instance. You will appear blatantly ignorant.

    Hope this helps.

    NetOpps2.
    The chap was right. The easiest way to learn "proper" English is to listen to well spoken English; similarly, the best way to learn to write well is to read well written books, articles, papers, etc. Patterns will very quickly be picked up.
  • I did yes. The points still sound, though, and hopefully will be useful nonetheless.

    Be well,
    NetOpps2
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    • "Point's." Or "points are."

      If you're gonna wombat, dammit, get it right.


      Paul
    • Yes, I do think you're being a Mrs. Womabat--whoever she is. Some of our best presidents have had to hire speech writers. Can you believe it?

      How in the world could someone become president of the greatest country on the planet--and fare so badly when it comes to spelling, grammar and sentence structure? Amazing!

      Listen...It's not that important.
  • Spelling is a big peeve of mine yes, but grammar is not. "Proper" grammar as defined by the English teachers of the world is dry, boring, and does not sell products.

    I'd bet that the greatest sales letters would get low or failing grades from English teachers

    Good sales writing is conversational, and people do not talk to each other with "proper" grammar.

    Now if you're talking about simple common mistakes such as there/their/they're or its/it's and principal/principle then yes too many of those mistakes raises the eyebrows and makes you think twice about who you're dealing with.

    I have misc silly peeves too though. "Learnt" instead of "Learned" drives me nuts
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    • Hi Kathy

      Hehe. This is what I meant by "know your audience". In British English, "dreamt", "learnt", "spelt" and burnt" are correct usages.

      Come to think of it, why don't you say "meaned" :confused:



      Frank
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  • I knew this would probably cause controversy. I started a thread a few moons ago when I first started coming here about pretty much the same thing. The discussion got heated at certain points.

    I'm in agreement with you, Steven. I can certainly understand a few errors when people are struggling with the English language, and that is usually apparent when it's happening. However, a lot of the time what I'm seeing is simply a disregard for proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and word flow. One argument is "Hey, if they're offering me value, I don't care how badly something is written."

    Well, I do. Maybe that's snobby, I don't know; but my take on it is that when I see that somebody simply didn't care how their copy looks to the reader, then I'm inclined to think that they didn't care about other things.

    Let's take a popular product like the iPod, for example. It's all the rage; everyone wants one (Okay let's not argue about whether everyone wants one or not, I'm just making a point.) More than likely people would still want them even if some of the copy in the ads wasn't always spelled correctly, or there were grammar or punctuation mistakes, etc. Would as many people still want them, though? If you saw a magazine ad for an iPod that was sloppily written, wouldn't you be shocked? Would it not give you pause?

    When I see that someone took the time to make sure that their copy looks its best, it helps build my trust in this person. It's only a part of the trust-building process, of course, but an important one to me.

    Why should we think that just because copy or content is on the Internet that we shouldn't have to hold to the same standards as what we see in print or on television, etc.?

    I, for one, appreciate the effort.
  • Your ability to communicate your thoughts clearly will affect your reader's understanding. Yet is the effect measurable ?

    PS Grammar changes with the audience

    PPS Not all grammar rules are agreed upon

    PPPS Using PSS is not correct
    • [1] reply
    • Grammar can change according to the audience you're writing for or the point you're trying to get across. A good writer makes his or her readers feel comfortable with what they're reading. Even with different grammar rules for different audiences, however, there are still subtle standards that good writers adhere to in order to get their points across in the best way possible.
  • Yeah, you're being a wombat.

    Did it ever occur to you there are people who are learning english on the fly, and are doing the best they can to communicate with you?

    Just a thought.
  • Err.. my sig is wroten in playn engerlish
  • It's your personal preference, but to me, grammatical errors don't matter a lot unless they make the writing;

    - hard to read and / or
    - conveys different meaning

    English is not my first language, and hence there are grammatical errors every now and then. But I try to put my message crystal clear.
  • Correct grammar, indeed, is one of the arts that are far more esteemed by schoolma'ams than by practical men, neck-deep in the heat and agony of the world.

    ~Henry Louis Mencken, The American Language
  • I generally agree with the OP regarding the subject of poorly written emails, promotional pieces and even audio and video clips.

    I know my writing isn't perfect at times and I do sometimes cringe myself after checking an email I had already sent.

    The main issue is that grammar is meant to be used appropriately to enable clear communication to take place.

    The "rules" of grammar exist, so that there is a fairly common agreed upon structure about how things are described, whether written or spoken about.

    Many people may not realise that this is what grammar is for. The most failing is that the way it is taught in schools is very poor and in many schools it isn't even taught at all.

    The subject really is rather simple once you understand the basics. Knowing grammar and how words are properly used enables you to both communicate with someone clearly, and to more easily understand what others are communicating to you.

    Standards in English and many other subjects are declining despite what governments will try to have us believe.

    I am continually amazed at just how many kids leave school and can't even write a simple letter or email correctly.

    Yes, words, spelling, language and grammar do change over the years, but that is not the same as being lazy or unwilling to communicate sensibly so that your communication is properly understood.

    Neither does this mean your writings or speech should be high-brow or pompous. That in itself can be a block to good communication.

    Use common sense, but make sure your message gets through clearly and distinctly and make your message interesting.

    Got it?
  • Eh, they're newbs who haven't been flamed enough yet on the boards to know any different, or Engrish isn't their strong suit.






  • The point is it should have read "The points still stand, though, and hopefully will be useful nonetheless, not "The points still sounds, though, and hopefully will be useful nonetheless."

    This was a typo, of course, and I accept that these can happen to the very best of us; that`s what proof-reading is for .

    It was an instant reply to an ill-disguised swipe at my perfectly reasonable stance for no good reason. You will notice that I had the manners not to cite any one individual in particular, while also providing some hopefully useful guidance between it`s and its.

    Kind regards,
    NetOpps2.
  • how the hell did this tame little thread end up so long?
    • [2] replies
    • Well, you know how fast wombats multiply...
    • Andy, I assure you...I didn't do it.

      I guess this is a hot topic with a lot of people.

      Maybe I'm not the only one this has been bugging.
  • Steven,
    I've quoted the questions from your original post and in my opinion they are all unanswerable... by anyone. I'm sure you will get a lot of opinions. But you still won't have your questions answered.

    Why? Because one person can never know what 'most people' or a 'majority' will do in your stated situations. And based on my calculation using the current membership of 128,244 (I just checked) it would require 64,123 all voting yea or all voting nay to answer your question regarding how the 'majority' feels. Plus, I have no idea what number of members would serve as 'most people'. It could be anything over 50% or it could be 60%,75%, 80%. Maybe the majority could decide.

    Carol









  • Banned
    I agree with the op. I am turned off by spelling and grammar errors. The site does not come off as professional to me and I normally won't buy. The way I look at it is everyone who puts up a site to sell to English speaking people should take the time to get it right. People who have no graphic skills often hire an artist to spruce up their pages. People who can't write professional copy should hire someone to clean it up.
  • So, just wondering.

    How many of you that feel so strongly that you must have scholarly
    writing abilites to be successful convey that fact to your potential
    buyers on your IM niche sales pages?

    I do see a lot to the contrary however (and I've peeked at
    a few signatures in this thread)...

    "All you need is a computer, an internet connection"
    "Even if you flunked 8th grade English"
    etc..
    • [1] reply
    • Nobody needs to have scholarly writing abilities to make good sales pages. They should simply get help with the look of their content if they aren't skilled in that area.

      I'm a decent writer but a lousy salesperson. I couldn't sell a running water hose to a rich man whose hair was on fire. So, no matter how correct all the spelling, grammar and punctuation on my website is, the sales copy is probably going to look crappy if I try to do it myself.

      I get help with the copy and make sure the writing looks good.
      • [1] reply
  • Because I enjoy writing, I'm often
    critical of errors and mistakes, but
    then I realize that I make mistakes
    myself, so who am I to judge.

    But, I won't read an email that's
    sent from someone who clearly doesn't
    care about what they were saying.

    You can tell the difference...like those
    crazy emails from "google" telling me
    that I've won a lottery I've never
    bought a ticket for.

    But, the first time I bought a New York
    Times Best Seller and there was an error
    in the copy...I chilled out.

    We are all human right? Mistakes
    are going to happen.

    On the other hand, if the grammar is
    really bad on the sales letter I won't
    buy the product.

    My first thought is if the copy full of
    errors, the e-book might be worse.
  • Dadgumit young feller, yew is one hunnert percent right 'bout some folk not bein able to spelt worth a durn! It jest don't bother me as much as yew.

    Not everone has a secund grade edumacation like ole hillbilly so I jest don't thank it be proper to thank badly of em!

    Truth is, jest bout anyfolk kin become mighty fine writers. Yew wudn't hardly believe it but my writen wusn't always this gud. I used to be purty bad but be a lookin at me now. I gets paid over ten dollers per sales copy now. Yew don't be a believin old Homer? Jest take a looksee at this here sales letter. But fore I be a showin yew the letter, let me jest tell you thut it will be a makin yew wanna be a gettin all froggy and jump right in an perchase my book. Well sir, it taint gonna happen cause it ain't fer sale any more. I dun took the sales links out an yew caint get it no way nor no how. Take a look at The Bestest Durn Sales Letter on the Face of This Hearin Eurth!"

    Now all yew folk who doesnt be a writin to good, jest keep a dreamin cause yew kin be nurly as good as old Bad Thad!
    • [1] reply
    • Thadpole,

      It's a very safe bet that few of the people here, other than your esteemed self and possibly Mr Louviere, have the artistic sensibilities to pull off that kind of thing as well as you just did.

      A lesson well worth larnin'!


      Paul
  • Why thank yew Mister Myers... and didja be a noticin that I dun spelt yer name right unlike thut thar dummy Chris Sutton?

    I jest be a wantin yew to knowed thut yew is a mighty fine feller and yew cudda been my bestest pal iffin it twernt fer Miz Penelope!

    Ya'll be a havin a fine evenin, yew hear?
  • Steven, you might be like me - I know that lots of people have English only as a second language, I know that anyone can make mistakes, I know that typos happen all the time...but somehow it doesn't matter. I hate seeing bad grammar/spelling, so when I do, I stop reading. Then again, maybe it's just my OCD...
    • [1] reply
    • Eliza,

      Where's my calendar?! A Wombat with a sense of humor? I am astounded, amazed and abashed. That's keeewwl!

      Scattermouse,If you actually are OCD, that's a different thing entirely.

      I know a gentleman from one of the email lists I'm on who's an extremely high-functioning autistic. Very smart, and we get along quite well. We could not talk on the phone without me driving him off the deep edge, though. He has problems with the normal small pauses that people leave in sentences. I leave pauses that have people wondering if I've hung up. He'd be bonkers after 10 minutes.

      Like OCD, it's not a matter of being a know-it-all jerk. It's not voluntary at all. Just happens.


      Paul
      • [2] replies
  • I applaud those for whom English is not their first language when they attempt to make themselves understood. Actually, the more I read articles, postings, emails, etc from foreign speakers the more I can understand.

    However, your question reminds me of a response i received from a web design company that had said they were based in Atlanta, Ga. My question was very basic...I believe that I just had advertised for someone who was familiar with PHP. The email that they sent was so garbled that I had no clue what it was they were trying to say. All I could think was that if they approached a prospective client with such poor use of the language, what would happen if I actually hired them?
    • [1] reply
    • There be money in them there hills missy! Misspellings ken bee muney mackers.
      I actually just did a blog post on that very word - see secrets below and search for gooogle.

      Ok, to those of you who English is not your first language, you are all dismissed.

      I just have to say, I recently put out a local ad for some help. The email replies that came in were SHOCKING. Bad grammar, bad spelling, no formal "To whom it may concern" or Dear Sir or Madam. The letters were terrible, and the job description was for someone to be meticulous with detail and categorization.

      I dunno. Maybe I'm just a Wombat too.
  • Banned
    [DELETED]
  • Kevin - google "ghoti"
    That says everything about the silliness of English pronunciation!
    • [1] reply
    • LOL. I'm glad that here we just say Sakana. Much easier.
      • [1] reply
  • I have seen many a grammar and spelling mistake in newsletters and IM programmes/products from highly revered and super duper hero gurus and I just think to myself, aw, well they are only human after all (I think) and read on happy in the knowledge that we are all prone to error.

    The lose/loose thing well that completely changes the meaning of the word so is definitely more cringable but other than that, mistakes don't hinder my enjoyment of reading and will not lower my opinion of someone or render them untrustworthy IMO.

    I'm so aware of my spelling/grammar now, tut.
  • Good writing is important since you want to convey your information in the most interesting and concise manner. When you fail to do it, you run the considerable risk of losing the reader's interest. After that, your text does not communicate what was intended, however valuable that might have been.

    There are people who'd forgive someone for bad grammar, provided we're sure he has something valuable. But no one wants to waste time skimming through hundreds of emails trying to find which one is valuable, while also trying to make sense of that 'value' from the badly written text.
  • Hi Steven:

    Hope all is well. Great thread.

    This may surprise you since I am a professional writer/author/public-speaker (even former radio personality). Communication is my life but...

    While I agree that emails, books, forum threads, etc. should not have a myriad of mistakes (I talk about grammar ills in my speaking/writing course) there are people that have a good mind but are not able to articulate their thoughts.

    Here is an example. There is a college student that often asks me questions about writing and the radio industry. When they send the email and even the way they speak on the phone you wouldn't believe they go to a major university.

    When you get to know the individual you find out they are as well versed on technology as anyone you will communicate with. If they were to send you a review for instance on the latest computers or mobile devices there would be plenty of spelling errors. If you read the contents all the way through you would not only save a great deal of money your knowledge would increase tremendously.

    Yes, I vote for 100 percent perfect grammar/spelling but before that the product and the guarantee wins out first.

    Thanks for letting me contribute.

    Enjoy Wednesday!
    • [1] reply
    • The only time bad grammar and spelling annoys me is when someone plagiarizes my article then barstardizes it, disjointed sentences, grammar out the window then it gets featured on EZA.

      • [1] reply
  • Honestly, I think you're "being a mrs wombat" here (since you mentioned it yourself I hope it's not off-mark. I grew up in Norway so unfamiliar with British and American sayings). Some of the most basic and powerful advice I've ever gotten was poorly worded, it still worked. However I admit that I often react in a similar way to poorly worded mails, articles, reviews or even blog posts.
  • Just as a matter of interest...

    Google returns about 6,600,000 results for "dear friend".

    John
  • well... I hate it when people use poor grammar. It bugs the crap out of me UNLESS it's intentional to get my attention. Then, and only then do I appreciate it.
    Sebastian
    • [1] reply

    • I do wonder if it's because they have been transcribed by someone in the Philippines (no offence intended as Filipino is their main language).

      Some Reece, Kern and Stomper manuals have atrocious grammar and many incorrect words such as "rip port" instead of "report", or "paper clip" instead of "pay per click" etc...

      This is unprofessional in my opinion and definitely very irritating when reading it.

      Perhaps they figure hardly anyone reads these kinds of things any more, so why bother...
      • [1] reply
  • Hi Steven
    I think you missed a ? when you asked a question.
    Mistakes happen even to the best of us.
    • [1] reply
    • Touche'

      Guess I need to start wombatting myself over the head.
  • As far as copywriting is concerned, the biggest problem with poor
    grammar and spelling is that they cause the reader to stop reading
    and analyze for a while.

    The "smooth slide" then becomes bumpy and even uncomfortable
    for the reader.

    Most people who get red in the face over bad grammar are usually
    'first borns', stick-to-the-rules kinda people who will also have
    a neat desk and a dustless room.

    It's a part of their nature to be clean, in order, speckless.

    So all those posters who think that good grammar is critical
    will also have other things about them to match--grooming,
    well-cut lawns, spotless vehicles--it's part of their nature
    and we can all forgive them.

    -Ray Edwards
    • [1] reply
    • Actually, I notice poor spelling, grammar and word flow right away and get facial tics over some of it, but I'm one of the most disorganized people you'd ever want to meet.
      • [1] reply
  • Just spent ten minutes trying to find an error in your grammar...all clean...dammit :rolleyes:
  • As a person I try to see the truth as well as the hard work involved behind any offer and how it is going to add value in my life.

    During last several weeks i have stopped focusing on any nagative aspect or weakness of a person or a business rather see what positive in it.


    The moment I focus my attention on spelling or grammer mistakes i am paying attention to whats wrong but if I focus on whats good and what i can learn from the time I spend with the email copy or sales message I give my brain something new and exciting.

    so my conclusion is to see where I want to pay attention on the value I am getting out of messages where i spend my time .

    hope it makes sense ?

    Thanks,
    -Gaj
  • well my main market loves bad grammar.

    In fact I start all my emails off with

    "Was good"

    If I wrote emails and spoke with perfect grammar I'd lose sales.

    Lesson: Know your market.
  • I'm so bad at english that the only way out for me is outsourcing all written content.
    But I have tiny budget and I can only outsource to bad writers, which results in even worse English than mine
  • I agree also, it irks me to no end when people's spelling is bad.
  • Well not to be a contrarian or anything (I'm actually an ex-English teacher who has learned to be more tolerant outside the classroom) -- here's a different point of view.

    I happen to know a couple of very successful internet marketers whose grammar leaves me shuddering in horror. Who are their target markets? newbies. Many of whom don't "spel rite" either! Their target markets don't care about grammar the way some of the rest of us do. So for them, it works.

    Of course, it's probable that they lose some of the more educated prospects whose grasp of ANY language exceeds theirs. But it seems that they are doing quite well without it, thank you very much.

    And I'm NOT talking about people from other cultures -- these are folks from the good old USA, who somehow managed to create successful businesses for themselves without being able to "spel or tock rite."

    Just something to consider.

    Does your target market care? THAT's the right question to ask, IMHO.
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
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