Have you ever crossed over to the dark side?

Places like Black Hat World are generally where SEO's migrate to after Warrior Forum. Some of the people there are absolute experts with no mickey mouse stuff

Like all forums some of the stuff is rubbish but it's worth being a member to keep up to date with all aspects of SEO, not just the white stuff.

You totally just described Warrior Forum and blackhat communities at the same time

I've never belonged to the community, but yeah - when the only reviews here I can find are affiliate promos or thread reviews that go "[seller] is a stand up guy", "I purchased without even reading the sales page", "you can't go wrong with a product by [seller]", If I can find a review thread on one of the black hat forums, I definitely check it out and have made purchases on the WF based on those reviews at times. lol

I joined a BH forum in 2009 and WF in 2010. I have what.. 12 posts on here now.. and 158 over there.. When I have the time to spend on forums, the first place I go is the BH forum. Once you learn how to ignore the "scammy" type stuff, you can get a lot of really good information on a variety of topics.

Are BH forums "bad"? Oh I don't know. I bought someones little WSO on here the other day and he basically said to buy other peoples WSOs, rewrite them etc and then sell them as your own.. Not to mention the number of times I've seen techniques given away for free over on the BH forum and then shortly after they make their way over here as a WSO. So which is worse?

Maybe I just haven't bought the coolaid but despite the "elitist" attitude of some, I view all of us as basically glorified used car salesmen.. lol..

+1 for this.

White Hat SEO's tend to touch the surface of the subject.
Black Hat SEO's dig really deep and discover new interesting things.

There comes a point in your career when you get feed-up listening to the same old regurgitated nonsense by SEO's with half the experience you do.

That's when places like BHW, Agent Underground and all those sites come to the fore. There are some really good guys on there who are doing stuff many SEO's couldn't even comprehend.

My 2p anyway

Karma? Are you just making an assumption that everything in the black hat communities is bad, if that is the case then I feel sorry for you as you are missing out on a lot of information that could benefit you and your business.
But, who am I to say what is best for you? It's interesting to hear what you guys are saying though and thanks for indulging me with your perspective.

I know nothing of this tech stuff, but I too enjoy a good, heated debated now and again.

These are some good points. However, I believe Youvana Humpme said "dark side" just to add some colors to our discussion.

In terms of SEO.

Let's say that pumping content (good one) on website, blog and social profiles, alongside interaction, guest posts and blog posts (and maybe some press release) is considered a White Hat.

Let's say that using SER, Xrumer, social bots etc. is considered Black Hat.

In my opinion, both are very similar. But the Black Hat way is better because gives advantage in terms of speed. Tools make life much easier. And I'm not saying about using tools for spamming internet. I mean using tools to get things done faster but with the same good quality (as with manual work).

Sure, there are some techniques on the "Dark Side" that will allow some people to rank faster, higher and make more money (life is short, anyone is choosing his/her own way).

Some people like to build one website, and work on it few years (unless they hit the jack pot like the guy from FB). Others like to build tens of websites, rank them fast, make fast money and once website gets penalized start over.

Tools gives us possibility to rank website faster, and make money faster. Who cares if site get knocked down after week, month or six months? In that time there are build tens of new websites ready to rank and make money.

Of course, tools can be used with same efficiency while building long term website. The rules are changing a bit but in general it's all the same.

I think many people just don't understand Black Hat way. Matty Clutss got his share in this.

Now, the real dark side is something not many people know about, and certainly it isn't discussed online.

I've seen some WSO's that should never see the light of day. Also seen some that were distributed over there, and been reviewed a lot more honestly there than here. Like "here it is, but not worth your time to download it."

p.s. I took their word for it

In terms of SEO, no cost but investment. Money is not important here. What is important is desire to LEARN constantly. To be effective in "black hat" way, you need to have desire to dig into technical things like code, you have to know how WWW works (at least basics), even how protocols work. Innovative? Those guys who are seating at Google offices right now and working on algorithm improvements, those guys are just like Black Hatters. They dig in the code... deep. It's not for everyone.
On the other side are people who can do it as well. Those people you call Black Hatters.

One of the big misconceptions about "product of the day" is that the designation implies some kind of endorsement. It simply means the product a given site is featuring on that day. Now, I will grant that the operators of those sites and their affiliates do nothing to correct that misconception.

As for the original question, I don't buy into labels like "black hat" or "white hat". I look at how a given idea fits into my personal ethics. Some things may be technically legal, but they're pretty scummy. Other things may be vilified, but because of the execution rather than the tactic itself. Since my personal experience of these "black hat" forums left a bad taste in my mouth, as these "brilliant ideas" usually meant exploiting someone else's web properties regardless of harm to those properties, I don't bother with them.

I could always fall back on what a relative (a retired homicide detective) likes to say - if some of these crooks put the same energy into doing things the right way as they do into shortcuts, they'd do amazingly well.

Not to take anything away from the point you're making (although you do seem to be demanding an answer) but I would guess there are MANY who don't fall and lose everything, who live it up until death!

We just never find out they were crooks.

I can go part way on this with you. But when someone deliberately uses and abuses someone else's hard work and output without regard to any harm that may be done, they cross the line. Things like phony profiles and comment spamming using robots to make others' web properties unusable for the sake of a backlink are scummy tactics used by sociopaths.

I recently read a book on optimizing one's presence in the Kindle marketplace. One of the tactics offered was very clever and technically within the rules, but it left me feeling a bit dirty. So I won't be using it.

While it's not for me, this is the kind of thing I think you were talking about.

Stuff like paying people to leave bad reviews on competitors' books, on the other hand, is definitely on the dark side.

not really sure why you would want to close a DISCUSSION thread down because it has some people who are 100% for your idea, some who are 100% against your thoughts, and some who are kinda in between. Discussions like this are a good thing for veteran and newbie marketers alike.

For me, I do take in a lot of marketing information. I have for 20 years now. Some of that comes from blackhat type of sites. Although there are certainly many many very dark grey tactics discussed and sold here. Not so much the outright stealing stuff, but more the type of stuff John and I have alluded to. The stuff that when its abused is bad... often bad for everyone. Lots of that sorta stuff is sold here on WF...for better or worse...lol

But I have learned lots of solid whitehat cpa stuff from blackhat forums. A few discussions on adfly helped me greatly improve some playtime (pocket money) campaigns there. There are a lot of good creative minds at work in some of those places. And just like here, you can run with the good crowd or the bad crowd at WF too.

Those guys come up with resources i never find on normal marketing sites or anywhere in the top 20 pages of google. Some interesting software and such that lead me down a creative path i would have never gone down otherwise.

I guess the key is that you have to have your morale lines drawn before you engage some people and especially some venues who are disproportionately geared to blackhat tactics.

I guess its like my dad told me when i was a teenager; "the time to decide if you are going to have sex is not when you are in the back seat of a car with you GF".

Likewise the time to decide where your moral marketing compass is comes long before you visit one site or the other. Once you do that, you can take in all sorts of info and let it hit your filter and learn what you can from it. Apply what makes sense to you and discard the rest.

So scream. Do you think it will change our perceptions. We've been there. We see what goes on. You like BH forums, you won't like it here. Either way, we won't care.

Zepyron, this is not what I meant at all, you might for example look on a black hat forum and discover ways they are using youtube completely legitimately, (and a very good idea at this timeI) something that will help your business without doing anything illicit. I only take good information from those communities which I see will benefit my business and I always give back wherever I operate

funny stuff