Have you ever crossed over to the dark side?

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I'm curious to know how many of you look at the work of the people on the dark side...you know the Black hat communities. Some of these people have some great ideas as they have the ability to think "out of the box" which is not a common marketers trait. There are some very clever people in these communities and I guarantee that you will learn a lot and discover what really works online as some of these people are very sharp. How many of you venture into this realm? and what positive (or negative) things have you taken away from it?
#main internet marketing discussion forum #crossed #dark #side
  • Yes, these communities do have a large following and most of their shit is crappy but once in a while you can grab a technique and twist it a little bit to customize it and boom... you have something that you can work with and can be proved very beneficial, it is also good to know to keep yourself updated with what;s happening in those communities and their hot topics.
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    • Places like Black Hat World are generally where SEO's migrate to after Warrior Forum. Some of the people there are absolute experts with no mickey mouse stuff

      Like all forums some of the stuff is rubbish but it's worth being a member to keep up to date with all aspects of SEO, not just the white stuff.
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    • You totally just described Warrior Forum and blackhat communities at the same time
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  • No but I love the song on the dark side oh yeah on the dark side

    In all seriousness they can do what they want like steal products etc...

    Not my kind of people but to each their own.

    On a positive note there are definitely some very intelligent people on that dark side but like I said not my style.
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  • I've peeped into the dark side and even followed some ideas from there but generally don't really bother with it. Some of the methods may look simple, but takes a lot of effort to do and redo. Black hat marketing is very volatile and I'm just not one to exert that kind of effort to keep doing it in the long run

    You do pick up useful tips and tricks though, so it's not completely a bad idea.
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  • I think the main problem is that people just think of these communities as a place for stealing products. Whereas in my case it's the strategies that I'm into. SEO definitely, that is one of the areas that greatly interests me. I think it's an interesting paradox though as some ideas get stolen from the dark side and made into products which are purchased by people in this forum To do well online you need to see as much of the real picture as you can and these folks should be respected for their honest reviews of existing products, admittedly they go bonkers and flame each other regularly, but I respect their voice as much as I do the fine people in this forum.
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    • I've never belonged to the community, but yeah - when the only reviews here I can find are affiliate promos or thread reviews that go "[seller] is a stand up guy", "I purchased without even reading the sales page", "you can't go wrong with a product by [seller]", If I can find a review thread on one of the black hat forums, I definitely check it out and have made purchases on the WF based on those reviews at times. lol
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    • I joined a BH forum in 2009 and WF in 2010. I have what.. 12 posts on here now.. and 158 over there.. When I have the time to spend on forums, the first place I go is the BH forum. Once you learn how to ignore the "scammy" type stuff, you can get a lot of really good information on a variety of topics.

      Are BH forums "bad"? Oh I don't know. I bought someones little WSO on here the other day and he basically said to buy other peoples WSOs, rewrite them etc and then sell them as your own.. Not to mention the number of times I've seen techniques given away for free over on the BH forum and then shortly after they make their way over here as a WSO. So which is worse?

      Maybe I just haven't bought the coolaid but despite the "elitist" attitude of some, I view all of us as basically glorified used car salesmen.. lol..
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  • There are definately some very intelligent people over there, and not just people who do things the blackhat way. I once encountered a thread about media buying there a couple of years ago and that was sheer brillance. (and whitehat too )
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  • I've been a member of the blackhat community far earlier than being a member of SP, DP, and WF but I can tell that the ideas there are nothing and useless if you are to build a lifetime business.
  • I disagree, I started out on the black hat forums and I have built a full time living as a marketer using some of the strategies I have learned in my online endeavors, to say that the ideas are nothing and useless certainly does not apply in my situation.
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    • +1 for this.

      White Hat SEO's tend to touch the surface of the subject.
      Black Hat SEO's dig really deep and discover new interesting things.

      There comes a point in your career when you get feed-up listening to the same old regurgitated nonsense by SEO's with half the experience you do.

      That's when places like BHW, Agent Underground and all those sites come to the fore. There are some really good guys on there who are doing stuff many SEO's couldn't even comprehend.

      My 2p anyway
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  • Karma. Never.......low energy acts bring low energy results, now, or in the future.
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    • Karma? Are you just making an assumption that everything in the black hat communities is bad, if that is the case then I feel sorry for you as you are missing out on a lot of information that could benefit you and your business.
      But, who am I to say what is best for you? It's interesting to hear what you guys are saying though and thanks for indulging me with your perspective.
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  • Hey Ryan, yeah I'm pretty clear on black hat, it was the spectrum of information in such communities that I was referring too rather than purely black hat strategies. I'm mostly white hat bordering on grey in a couple of areas. I just wanted to get a perspective from this forum, I didn't mean to be defensive and it was certainly not my intention to come across that way However you are right I do like a good debate
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  • Nope. Never.

    But for me, the Dark Side is NOT blackhat SEO.

    The Dark Side is proactively scamming others - folks who are seriously looking for success but you sell what will not work.

    Never ever ever ever.

    My goal, every single day, is to be able to look at the person facing me in the mirror... and be proud of whom I see looking back.

    Scamming removes that. BlackHat SEO does not.
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    • These are some good points. However, I believe Youvana Humpme said "dark side" just to add some colors to our discussion.

      In terms of SEO.

      Let's say that pumping content (good one) on website, blog and social profiles, alongside interaction, guest posts and blog posts (and maybe some press release) is considered a White Hat.

      Let's say that using SER, Xrumer, social bots etc. is considered Black Hat.

      In my opinion, both are very similar. But the Black Hat way is better because gives advantage in terms of speed. Tools make life much easier. And I'm not saying about using tools for spamming internet. I mean using tools to get things done faster but with the same good quality (as with manual work).

      Sure, there are some techniques on the "Dark Side" that will allow some people to rank faster, higher and make more money (life is short, anyone is choosing his/her own way).

      Some people like to build one website, and work on it few years (unless they hit the jack pot like the guy from FB). Others like to build tens of websites, rank them fast, make fast money and once website gets penalized start over.

      Tools gives us possibility to rank website faster, and make money faster. Who cares if site get knocked down after week, month or six months? In that time there are build tens of new websites ready to rank and make money.

      Of course, tools can be used with same efficiency while building long term website. The rules are changing a bit but in general it's all the same.

      I think many people just don't understand Black Hat way. Matty Clutss got his share in this.

      Now, the real dark side is something not many people know about, and certainly it isn't discussed online.
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  • I'm sure there are good ideas on every marketing forum as many people from a 'white hat' forum will go over to the blackhat forum and try to market there or the other way around. And, so you get a mix of the same people all over, spreading the same ideas. Sometimes you might find an idea for how to do things that will work for you and if that's the situation, then so much the better for you. That one idea, might just apply to your specific situation but might not work for someone else in a different niche. If reading over threads in a blackhat forum starts you thinking outside the box, then that's an idea you should stick with. Maybe not everyone is comfortable visiting those forums for worry they will pick up bad or illegal habits and accidentally integrate them into their marketing plan to their own demise.
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  • Come on, guys. BHW is a great place to buy services. Don't people sell links on other marketer forums, though Google considers it unfair?
    No matter how do you call it - "white" or "black" it's ok if it works and users are contempt.
    Yeah, there's lots of crappy stuff at BHW, but Youvana's right - there's lots of cool ideas there. and there are folks there that can really help in some situations
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  • When I started out I had a look in all directions to see what works and what not. Scamming people wasn't a way for me to do marketing but I tried a few grey hat methods to make quick bucks but wasted mostly my time. But that's how it is. Some lesson must be learned on the hard way.
    I have also seen some good white hat methods in there because yes they have also forum sections especially for white hat.
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  • I think selling unrealistic dreams and making money from it belongs to dark side, so you can find many of them in WSO section. So they are everywhere.
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    • I've seen some WSO's that should never see the light of day. Also seen some that were distributed over there, and been reviewed a lot more honestly there than here. Like "here it is, but not worth your time to download it."

      p.s. I took their word for it
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  • I have no doubt there are some creative and smart people there. I have not cared to be associated with that segment or realm, as you call it.

    I have nothing against any individual there, but I think there are negative online consequences that come from association with black hat communities and methods.

    "Black hat," at least to me, suggests breaking the rules, operating to your own advantage at the expense of others, not caring about copyright, personal rights of ownership, or whether you hurt someone else's business by sharing their proprietary secrets.

    I have no doubt about the "out of the box" thinking and methods of this realm, as you call it. But I don't like the fact that they trample on other people to try to show off their own "skills." I don't want to be included in their group, even if only by association.

    What many of them do is wrong. It's against the law. Stealing (they may call it "sharing") causes hurt for business owners. I believe in business ethics, and yes, many who profess to be white hat have no ethics.

    I don't want my reputation or my business to be seen as unethical.

    Thanks for your thread - it's good to hear from both sides.

    Steve
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  • Join the dark side. We have chocolate chip cookies !

    But seriously....

    I used to go to the Black Hat forums, but not so much these days...

    Not all of the things you can learn from the Black Hat forums are necessarily "scamming people" or "stealing from people" or "tricking Go0gle", etc.

    The first money I ever made online was by using a technique I learned in an e-Book I got from 1 of the Black Hat forums... which I talked about in this Post

    I consider that particular strategy more of a "grey hat" method than "black hat", since the guys did not pay anything to sign up for a free account (which earned me a commission).
    If they signed up for a paid account later on... well, that was up to them to decide if it would be worth it or not.

    These days though, I just stick to "white hat" strategies like list building, classified ads (both free and paid ads), PPC, etc.
  • To me, "black hat" is not "dark side". It's people twisting and bending the rules to work in their favor. Nothing inherently wrong with that. It's all in how you use the knowledge you've gained.

    That being said, I don't frequent those forums or get involved in that stuff simply because I don't feel like their techniques have merit. Innovative or outside-thinking, absolutely. Clever? To a point. Beneficial to your business? Perhaps...but at what cost?
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    • In terms of SEO, no cost but investment. Money is not important here. What is important is desire to LEARN constantly. To be effective in "black hat" way, you need to have desire to dig into technical things like code, you have to know how WWW works (at least basics), even how protocols work. Innovative? Those guys who are seating at Google offices right now and working on algorithm improvements, those guys are just like Black Hatters. They dig in the code... deep. It's not for everyone.
      On the other side are people who can do it as well. Those people you call Black Hatters.
  • Hard to scale black hat tactic, it is short term business model. You've got to plan for the future.
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    • One of the big misconceptions about "product of the day" is that the designation implies some kind of endorsement. It simply means the product a given site is featuring on that day. Now, I will grant that the operators of those sites and their affiliates do nothing to correct that misconception.

      As for the original question, I don't buy into labels like "black hat" or "white hat". I look at how a given idea fits into my personal ethics. Some things may be technically legal, but they're pretty scummy. Other things may be vilified, but because of the execution rather than the tactic itself. Since my personal experience of these "black hat" forums left a bad taste in my mouth, as these "brilliant ideas" usually meant exploiting someone else's web properties regardless of harm to those properties, I don't bother with them.

      I could always fall back on what a relative (a retired homicide detective) likes to say - if some of these crooks put the same energy into doing things the right way as they do into shortcuts, they'd do amazingly well.
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  • napster was blackhat but changed the world...
    I think the BH stuff keeps the whole thing from getting stale. The market needs this disruptive influence.

    But it aint for me...i wouldnt stick a toe in that shark tank
  • If you do not want to get banned from google stay in the light my friends.
  • I can't seem to get pass the headache-inducing, confusing look of the site to see the benefits. What is up with that?!!
  • I've said this for years.

    Look at some of the master criminals through the ages. Geniuses, without a doubt.

    How many didn't eventually fall and lose everything? Come on, how many??

    You are who you associate with. Online more then anywhere.
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    • Not to take anything away from the point you're making (although you do seem to be demanding an answer) but I would guess there are MANY who don't fall and lose everything, who live it up until death!

      We just never find out they were crooks.
  • My main business was selling links and I suppose that is the dark side according to Google. Now Google has almost completely destroyed the link trade business.
  • Information is a wonderful thing, embrace it learn from it, but never condemn it. It is too easy to say "this is right or that is wrong".There is good and bad wherever we look, but it is best to embrace the positive and learn from wisdom wherever you find it. Try not to be negative and keep an open mind, there are many people we can learn from.
  • My favorite is when people fight over who shared someone else's hard designed product first and then there's a big fight.

    The places are havens for negative energy, shiney object heroin and general ways to waste time.

    I'm not sure what type of quality "customers" you'll want to attract at those sites or that you'd really want them in your life.

    They are ALL leeches... for the most part.

    Its like the red light district but for online marketers.

    You may have gone there, you might not go there on a regular basis but you at least know about it, lol.

    Interesting way to waste time for sure....maybe get a tip here or there but generally a way to become an info product diabetic.

    Regards

    Los
  • "black hat" can be defined in several different ways. For me, " black hat" is more on the lines of theft, intentionally misleading for personal gain, using fake signups for cpa...stuff like that. stuff that is out right scamming people.

    then you have what i commonly refer to as "tactics". For me me, marketing tactics or marketing games are all the SEO games (keyword stuffing...lol, backlink spamming, ...) that kind of stuff.

    Where you are simply over-optimizing your site / business for one particular traffic generation method. I choose not to focus any meaningful amount of time and effort on this, but i dont really think its a black hat thing. Someone makes a set of rules (google) and some figure out how to win a game playing by those rules (seo guys).

    Then google changes the rules and they have to re-figure out how to win that game. To me, most of that is not really black hat...its playing googles seo game by googles seo rules...whatever those rules happen to be today.
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    • I can go part way on this with you. But when someone deliberately uses and abuses someone else's hard work and output without regard to any harm that may be done, they cross the line. Things like phony profiles and comment spamming using robots to make others' web properties unusable for the sake of a backlink are scummy tactics used by sociopaths.

      I recently read a book on optimizing one's presence in the Kindle marketplace. One of the tactics offered was very clever and technically within the rules, but it left me feeling a bit dirty. So I won't be using it.

      While it's not for me, this is the kind of thing I think you were talking about.

      Stuff like paying people to leave bad reviews on competitors' books, on the other hand, is definitely on the dark side.
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  • No Black Hat for me. Black Hat techniques usually never work in the long run.
  • Please can a mod close this thread, I got what I expected. Some of the people in this thread are the people I would love to sit at a bar with and have a long interesting discussion and maybe even work with in the future, others are just so narrow minded it's painful. I don't mean to be harsh but if I see another "Oo no the black hat people are evil,thieves and scammers and I'd never consider even looking at an awful place like that" then I think I'll scream. Thank you all for your input, however distressing it has been )ok so I've been a bit of a drama queen, but you get what I'm saying?)
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    • not really sure why you would want to close a DISCUSSION thread down because it has some people who are 100% for your idea, some who are 100% against your thoughts, and some who are kinda in between. Discussions like this are a good thing for veteran and newbie marketers alike.

      For me, I do take in a lot of marketing information. I have for 20 years now. Some of that comes from blackhat type of sites. Although there are certainly many many very dark grey tactics discussed and sold here. Not so much the outright stealing stuff, but more the type of stuff John and I have alluded to. The stuff that when its abused is bad... often bad for everyone. Lots of that sorta stuff is sold here on WF...for better or worse...lol

      But I have learned lots of solid whitehat cpa stuff from blackhat forums. A few discussions on adfly helped me greatly improve some playtime (pocket money) campaigns there. There are a lot of good creative minds at work in some of those places. And just like here, you can run with the good crowd or the bad crowd at WF too.

      Those guys come up with resources i never find on normal marketing sites or anywhere in the top 20 pages of google. Some interesting software and such that lead me down a creative path i would have never gone down otherwise.

      I guess the key is that you have to have your morale lines drawn before you engage some people and especially some venues who are disproportionately geared to blackhat tactics.

      I guess its like my dad told me when i was a teenager; "the time to decide if you are going to have sex is not when you are in the back seat of a car with you GF".

      Likewise the time to decide where your moral marketing compass is comes long before you visit one site or the other. Once you do that, you can take in all sorts of info and let it hit your filter and learn what you can from it. Apply what makes sense to you and discard the rest.
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    • Banned
      So scream. Do you think it will change our perceptions. We've been there. We see what goes on. You like BH forums, you won't like it here. Either way, we won't care.
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  • You can make a lot of money fast with black hat. But, will you get paid?
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    • Zepyron, this is not what I meant at all, you might for example look on a black hat forum and discover ways they are using youtube completely legitimately, (and a very good idea at this timeI) something that will help your business without doing anything illicit. I only take good information from those communities which I see will benefit my business and I always give back wherever I operate
  • It really depends on which forum you are talking about. One of the blackhat type of forums I despise, but the other is filled with a wealth of good information and very honest people. In fact, the forum has sections for white hat seo and has a lot of real businesses there as well.

    I would say you are losing out by not joining any forum and testing it out yourself. There are scammers and blackhat techniques on every forum, but a few are really, really great when it comes to information.
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  • Ah so I'm a recruiting poster for black hat forums? I think you will find all I have done is try to help some people here and offered some advice that I thought might benefit them. It's true my original choice of username was a mistake, it was inspired by Austin Powers and was meant to be humorous. I learned from that error of judgement. I appreciate your point of view, that's fine and thanks for sharing it with me.
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  • 79

    Have you ever crossed over to the dark side?

    I'm curious to know how many of you look at the work of the people on the dark side...you know the Black hat communities. Some of these people have some great ideas as they have the ability to think "out of the box" which is not a common marketers trait. There are some very clever people in these communities and I guarantee that you will learn a lot and discover what really works online as some of these people are very sharp. How many of you venture into this realm? and what positive (or negative) things have you taken away from it?