Canadian GMO apples approved for sale :(

10 years ago

Karen - I have mixed feelings.

I know all the scare stories about GMO - and I dislike Monsanto for some of its practices just as many others here do.

But I do think "modified" food is part of the future. I think in the future it is possible to change the makeup of some foods to make them last longer on shelves or reach maturity faster or have a natural ability to fight insects or diseases.

We aren't there yet but the anti-GMO movement as it is now is going to lose. Reason is simple - they are saying "no" and nothing but "no". Instead we should be pushing for oversight, more testing, more research and helping move genetically modified foods from "experimental" into the "safe" category.

We want fresh food but we want it available to us all year - not just during the local growing season. That is why growers began adding treatments to make foods last longer so they'd still appear fresh even after long distance shipping. We (consumers) didn't like the idea of additives to prevent spoilage or preserve color. We don't want apples with spots or wormholes - we don't want soft spots - we want perfect looking food in our groceries.

But - also - we don't want food that is sprayed to kill fruit flies or prevent tiny worms. If it can be perfected - and if it is over time proven to be safe - GMO offers a solution. The question that needs answered is whether it also creates new problems...jury is out on tht one.

Meanwhile, if you don't want to support the GMO industry - don't buy food out of season - buy fresh produce locally from the growers - shop in only certified organic and natural food stores.

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Karen Blundell 10 years ago

that's the problem, I don't trust the testing process - not when it's a choice between more profit or people's health. So many corporations (or even individuals) will do anything for money.

and yes, Kay, it looks like I will have to continue buying all organic and/or in season from local farmers which I have already started to do.
That, and growing as much of my own fresh produce as possible - and doing my own freezing and/or canning -
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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

But I do think "modified" food is part of the future.

An intelligent perspective that anyone with an IQ over room temperature should acknowledge and embrace. You can't stop progress, especially when it concerns our most fundamental needs for survival as a species.

How dare you make such a well-reasoned post in the OT? The nerve of someone people.

Cheers,

Frank

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Richard Van

10 years ago

Not wanting to argue and it's up to those across the pond to do as they wish but in GMO's support, assuming it doesn't adversely affect people, surely things like this would be good for parts of the world that suffer natural disasters such as famine? I'm just thinking about places like Ethiopia which when I was growing up had a few bad years and how drought resistant crops may have helped back then.

I know we could argue that we can send them money but we did that and the leaders began driving around in Limo's and the people still went hungry.

As I said, I don't know and I'm in no position to comment on the sale of apples in Canada/America but on a global scale I'm just intrigued what those against it think, seeing as starvation is a very real threat and assuming we can create drought resistant veg etc.

Incidentally, what's the massive advantage in having an apple that doesn't go brown?

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Hmmmmm, GMO Apples!

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Richard Van

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

Hmmmmm, GMO Apples!

What about if they could grow drought resistant crops for people that would otherwise starve?

I'm not saying it should be done just interested in what people think. It's a bit of a double edged sword.

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tagiscom

10 years ago

What about if they could grow drought resistant crops for people that would otherwise starve?

I'm not saying it should be done just interested in what people think. It's a bit of a double edged sword.

In first world economies, avoid like the plague, but as you are saying better to live a healthy life and get Cancer than to starve to death within the next 5 years!

But, of course if we got rid of oil, and grew up, then the rich and poor would be on a more level playing field!

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Not wanting to argue and it's up to those across the pond to do as they wish but in GMO's support, assuming it doesn't adversely affect people, surely things like this would be good for parts of the world that suffer natural disasters such as famine? I'm just thinking about places like Ethiopia which when I was growing up had a few bad years and how drought resistant crops may have helped back then.

I know we could argue that we can send them money but we did that and the leaders began driving around in Limo's and the people still went hungry.

As I said, I don't know and I'm in no position to comment on the sale of apples in Canada/America but on a global scale I'm just intrigued what those against it think, seeing as starvation is a very real threat and assuming we can create drought resistant veg etc.

Incidentally, what's the massive advantage in having an apple that doesn't go brown?

In truth Richard, gmo's can't stop hunger. What is needed is sustainable agriculture based on smaller local farming and diversity to do that.
When you go into an area that has depleted soils and plant gmo's you are doing at least two things that will make hunger worse. First you're planting mono crops. In other words if you're planying a field with a gmo, that's all you can plant. Second because of their reliance on chemicals to grow, you are further depleting the soil so that the only crops you can plant will also require a heavy dependence on chemicals. They also require more irrigation then if you grow organic. Science group finds drought-tolerant GMO corn lacking | Reuters
I posted a link here a while ago (in a different thread) That showed how organic grown strawberries with no irrigation or chemical pesticides in California out produced conventional grown strawberries there that used irrigation and chemical pesticides.
Poisoning the planet with toxic chemicals is not how you end hunger.

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Frank Donovan 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Incidentally, what's the massive advantage in having an apple that doesn't go brown?

None that I can see. As Joni sang:

"Hey farmer farmer
Put away that DDT now
Give me spots on my apples
But leave me the birds and the bees
Please!"

Big Yellow Taxi - Joni Mitchell - YouTube
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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

An intelligent perspective that anyone with an IQ over room temperature should acknowledge and embrace. You can't stop progress, especially when it concerns our most fundamental needs for survival as a species.

How dare you make such a well-reasoned post in the OT? The nerve of someone people.

Cheers,

Frank

And here I thought Frank was actually concerned about things like the environment, guess I was wrong again.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

And here I thought Frank was actually concerned about things like the environment, guess I was wrong again.

"Wrong, again" being the key phrase. :-)

I'm very concerned about real threats to the environment, I just don't regard GMO's as one of them. My ideal meal is a cloned rib-eye, GMO mashed potatoes with a side of irradiated creamed-spinach. You know what they say. "Better living through chemistry."

Additionally, what good is a healthy environment is everyone in it starves to death? All of those rotting corpses won't be good for anything.

Cheers. - Frank

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

"Wrong, again" being the key phrase. :-)

I'm very concerned about real threats to the environment, I just don't regard GMO's as one of them. My ideal meal is a cloned rib-eye, GMO mashed potatoes with a side of irradiated creamed-spinach. You know what they say. "Better living through chemistry."

Additionally, what good is a healthy environment is everyone in it starves to death? All of those rotting corpses won't be good for anything.

Cheers. - Frank

Gmo's are a real threat to the environment. Gmo Potatoes aren't on the market yet. Thining gmo's will feed the world is a common fallacy of the uninformed.

In the year GMO seeds were first planted, 800 million people worldwide were hungry. Today, with millions of hectares of GMOs in production, 1 billion are hungry. When exactly do these crops start "feeding the world"?GRAIN — GMOs: Fooling

What good is a healthy environment? Are you being serious?

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Gmo Potatoes aren't on the market yet.

If only

I want a jacket potato the size of my head!!

Thinking gmo's will feed the world is a common fallacy of the uninformed.

How so? Why is it that GMO's don't have the potential to feed the world?

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

If only

I want a jacket potato the size of my head!!

How so? Why is it that GMO's don't have the potential to feed the world?

From the link I just posted.

FACT: Not true. Look at the data from the country with the longest experience of GMOs: the United States. In the most extensive and rigorous study, the Union of Concerned Scientists analyzed twenty years of GE crops and concluded that genetically engineered herbicide-tolerant soybeans and corn are no more productive than conventional plants and methods. Furthermore, 86% of the corn productivity increases obtained in the past twenty years have been due to conventional methods and practices. Other studies have found GE productivity to be lower than conventional.GRAIN — GMOs: Fooling

Failure to Yield: Evaluating the Performance of Genetically Engineered Crops (2009)

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

From the link I just posted.
Failure to Yield: Evaluating the Performance of Genetically Engineered Crops (2009)

Isn't GMO foods pretty much in its infancy though? Genetic engineering has been going through the roof in the last decade due to various things such as: Cheaper sequencing, better understanding, genome studies, technologies etc... It feels a bit early for that statement in my opinion.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Isn't GMO foods pretty much in its infancy though? Genetic engineering has been going through the roof in the last decade due to various things such as: Cheaper sequencing, better understanding, genome studies, technologies etc... It feels a bit early for that statement in my opinion.

GMO's have been in production since the early 90's. So your looking at around 20 years of data.
I'm not against genetic engineering as a science. In other areas of the field they are doing some amazing things.
It's the way it's being applied to plants that is the issue.
There are some in the field that are actually trying to improve the plants they are working on. They have been finding in every case that when you try to splice genes from two completely different species you always end up with unintended consequences.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Gmo's are a real threat to the environment.

So you say. I'm waiting for the proof. Where are Don's charts and graphs?

Gmo Potatoes aren't on the market yet.

A man can dream, can't he?

Thining gmo's will feed the world is a common fallacy of the uninformed.

Resorting to personal attacks with those you disagree with is a common tactic of the intellectually inferior.

What good is a healthy environment? Are you being serious?

If you are only going to read half of the sentence then there is

Cheers. - Frank

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Dan Riffle 10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Where are Don's charts and graphs?

Why the hell would you put that out into the universe??? Have you any idea what you've just done?

I'll tell you: You've doomed us all.
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- butters 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle
  
  Why the hell would you put that out into the universe??? Have you any idea what you've just done?
  
  I'll tell you: You've doomed us all.
  
  Prepare for the wall of numbers that no one has a clue what they mean
  
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- Claude Whitacre 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BigFrank
  
  So you say. I'm waiting for the proof. Where are Don's charts and graphs?
  
  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle
  
  Why the hell would you put that out into the universe??? Have you any idea what you've just done?
  
  I'll tell you: You've doomed us all.
  
  Two completely identical universes. Until this moment,
  
  And this is what causes one to die a horrible death.
  
  I hope you're happy, Big Frank...."Destroyer of Worlds"
  
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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

So you say. I'm waiting for the proof. Where are Don's charts and graphs?
A man can dream, can't he?
Resorting to personal attacks with those you disagree with is a common tactic of the intellectually inferior.
If you are only going to read half of the sentence then there is

Cheers. - Frank

Coming from the expert. It's rare for you to use any other tactic then personal attacks. Stating that was a common fallacy of those uninformed on the issue is the truth. Implying I'm intellectually inferior for making it is a personal attack.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Coming from the expert. It's rare for you to use any other tactic then personal attacks. Stating that was a common fallacy of those uninformed on the issue is the truth. Implying I'm intellectually inferior for making it is a personal attack.

Thom, why don't you try replacing that stick that's firmly planted in your anus with just a smidgen of something remotely resembling a sense of humor. You're a very foul person, if you'll forgive the personal attack. :-)

Cheers. - Frank

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Stating that was a common fallacy of those uninformed on the issue is the truth.

Yes Thom, we know. You are an expert on all topics and to not agree with you is the height of stupidity.

Thanks for blessing us with your expertise. I just don't know how we would all survive without it.

And thanks for the laugh, too. At least you contributed something meaningful to the discussion - finally!

Cheers. - Frank

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discrat

10 years ago

I sense an IBP coming real soon (a.k.a Ignore Button Proclamation

)

Gotta luv the OT Forum

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

I sense an IBP coming real soon (a.k.a Ignore Button Proclamation

)

Gotta luv the OT Forum

Not from me, I find the "open mouth, insert foot" postings pretty amusing actually.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Not from me, I find the "open mouth, insert foot" postings pretty amusing actually.

Translation: "I luvs me da taste 'o shoe leather." :-)

Cheers. - Frank

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Karen Blundell 10 years ago

thanks, guys, for completely derailing another discussion

I give up -

cya later
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- BigFrank Banned 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Karen Blundell
  
  thanks, guys, for completely derailing another discussion
  
  I give up -
  
  cya later
  
  Sorry. Your "discussion" moprphed into a lecture by individuals stating their opinion as facts that we should all believe. You'll hopefully forgive me for not bending to such unbridled arrogance.
  
  We've all had a thread hijacked at one time or another. We've all survived. Just like we'll all survive the dangers of GMO's.
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
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- Claude Whitacre 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Karen Blundell
  
  thanks, guys, for completely derailing another discussion
  
  I give up -
  
  cya later
  
  Karen; Are you kidding? This is how discussions work here.
  
  And this thread had drama...excitement....for example;
  
  Big Frank and Thom argued like passionate young Italian lovers. We're all just waiting for the Make up sex.
  
  Thom won a battle with me. Riffle got to see me say I was wrong.
  
  A couple people posted indecipherable insane posts.
  
  Dan Riffle came out of the closet.
  
  We learned that dogs don't directly descend from wolves.
  
  We learned that tomatoes can glow in the dark, and still feed a family of four.
  
  And all this excitement was free...FREE....on the Off Topic Forum.
  
  Did you think everyone was just going to fall in line, agree with you, and say nice things to each other? Have you ever been here before?
  
  This thread has two homicidal maniacs, a super villain, a movie star, a gay....Riffle, an old man in a diaper, and a couple of great Dames.
  
  All we are missing is the two smart Brits, and it's a party.
  
  Not a bad day, when you think about it.
  
  Originally Posted by BigFrank
  
  You'll hopefully forgive me for not bending to such unbridled arrogance.
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  Frank; Hey! Unbridled Arrogance is my thing.
  
  Dirty diapers is Riffle's thing.
  
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  Karen Blundell 10 years ago
  
  lol - at least you are really funny, Claude - I'll give you that -
  
  I do get frustrated though when threads (not just mine) get completely stupid as they often do - even though most of the time they turn into comedy central and quite entertaining, it seems to me a bit rude and offensive to hijack someone's thread -
  
  so please excuse my little tantrum above - I am human - and don't always accept the inevitable.
  
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  Dan Riffle 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Karen Blundell
  
  lol - at least you are really funny, Claude - I'll give you that -
  
  Karen, for the love of all things holy, don't tell him that. It's not nice to lie to him.
  
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  Karen Blundell 10 years ago
  
  thanks all
  
  I'm grateful for everyone's contribution and I hope that for some this thread was informative. I learned a few things myself today.
  
  Peace
  
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  discrat 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Karen Blundell
  
  at least you are really funny, Claude -
  
  My God woman,you know not what you do... you are feeding this already out of control Monster
  
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  Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)
  
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  Kurt 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Karen Blundell
  
  lol - at least you are really funny, Claude - I'll give you that -
  
  I agree. But looks aren't everything...
  
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  Claude Whitacre 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Karen Blundell
  
  lol - at least you are really funny, Claude - I'll give you that .
  
  Well, I love making women laugh......
  
  ..........as long as they aren't pointing, while they are laughing.
  
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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

No. You can yell "Danger" forever. We have proof of this.

I think GMOs are going to kill us all. And I'm not going to spend three minutes looking up what GMO is....and how it works. I'm just afraid. And if enough people stay afraid...

we must be right.

GMOs are the way Big Vegetable is going to wipe up out.

See Claude they were right!!!

Attack of the Killer Tomatoes Trailer - YouTube

True there is no controlling influence, eventhough Sweden has no Fluoride in drinking water and has no change in their kids teeth, and in AU, and the US, they keep dredging up that crap anytime someone says, get rid of it!

And free to air, is a wasteland or virtually anything compelling, exciting and creative is non-existent!

The news is depressing so you will stay scared and stay at home and buy their S***!

TV is boring and repetitive, so you will become numb and be easier to control, or won't storm a rich sociopaths house, although nutters with guns get through!

And MMGW, is still being thrashed, eventhough the US is going through their coldest winter for a long time, and their is good evidence to show that we are entering into a mini-ice age.

But true, that sociopaths are scared as well, but not about MMGW, they are more scared of pushing the masses to far, and losing control! So, yeah, dumb down society, and you have more of a handle!

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butters 10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

So you say. I'm waiting for the proof. Where are Don's charts and graphs?
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Karen Blundell

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

An intelligent perspective that anyone with an IQ over room temperature should acknowledge and embrace. You can't stop progress, especially when it concerns our most fundamental needs for survival as a species.

How dare you make such a well-reasoned post in the OT? The nerve of someone people.

Cheers,

Frank

progress? You mean they have found a way to control the population?

GMO food is already on most of our tables - and most
people are oblivious

check this out:
http://gmoguide.greenpeace.ca/shoppers_guide.pdf

You know what progress would be - if they decided to grow large crops of hemp - hemp would not only solve the world's hunger problems but it would clean our air -
4 Ways Hemp Can Save the World | One Green Planet

but no - that would be too easy - and probably put a lot of corporations out of business.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

progress? You mean they have found a way to control the population?

GMO food is already on most of our tables - and most
people are oblivious

check this out:
http://gmoguide.greenpeace.ca/shoppers_guide.pdf

You know what progress would be - if they decided to grow large crops of hemp - hemp would not only solve the world's hunger problems but it would clean our air -
4 Ways Hemp Can Save the World | One Green Planet

but no - that would be too easy - and probably put a lot of corporations out of business.

Well it is progress for the corporations that produce the gmo's and toxic chemicals needed to grow them

They have also made a lot of progress in destroying healthy soils and increasing climate change.
I guess you and I see progress from a different angle. To me progress would be restoring the health to our planet and producing healthy foods at the same time.
Now that's real health care

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Frank Donovan 10 years ago

If you've heard of Nassim Taleb, you'll know that he's probably the most high-profile commentator on risk management, and the author of best-selling books that deal with the subject of risk. So his views on the risks of using GMO foods are worth listening to, IMO.

Recently a group of independent researchers led by Taleb published a paper concerning the risks of GMO in terms of what they described as "The Precautionary Principle". Basically, their contention was that when a risk has global implications, rather than a predominantly local effect, more thorough testing needs to be carried out. That may sound obvious, but Taleb's team make some interesting observations in their paper - contrasting the risks of GMO foods with nuclear energy, for example and arriving at perhaps a surprise conclusion.

Some highlights from the paper:

First, the general principle:
When global harm is possible, an action must be avoided unless there is scientific near-certainty that it is safe. This approach is known as the precautionary principle.

And answering the charge that GMO foods can be compared to selective farming methods:
“There is no comparison between tinkering with the selective breeding of genetic components of organisms that have previously undergone extensive histories of selection and the top-down engineering of taking a gene from a fish and putting it into a tomato,” they argue. “Saying that such a product is natural misses the process of natural selection by which things become “natural.””

Anyway, it's a worthwhile contribution to the debate and an interesting read. You can access the paper here: https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv...or-e8836fa7d78

Frank
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BigFrank Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Well it is progress for the corporations that produce the gmo's and toxic chemicals needed to grow them.

No need to bash the job creators. Remember, "corporations are people, my friend." I'm sure they have feelings, too.

Cheers. - Frank
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seasoned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

GMO food is already on most of our tables - and most
people are oblivious.

SO WHAT! They were oblivious to DDT and DES ALSO! IMAGINE being a nature lover, and finding that something you are spraying to get rid of dandelions is killing pretty much everything on the planet. IMAGINE being a virgin that just married a guy, and you go to the doctor for a hopefully minor problem and find out that the reason why sex is painful, the reason why you apparently can't have a kid, etc... is because you have a MAJOR uncorrectable birth defect because of something your mothers doctor prescribed when she was pregnant with you to help her through a relatively minor problem.

And MANY, including myself, ARE aware of garbage and eating it because we were brought up on it and so many other things are likewise tainted.

Steve
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

But I do think "modified" food is part of the future.

(This isn't directed at you, but your post prompted the idea)
Modified food is part of our present too. Ever eat an ear of corn? Corn didn't look like that 10,000 years ago.

We see our food as it is now, but plants and animals evolve. They change. Ever see a dog? Every dog is a genetically modified wolf. You think there were dairy cows, 10,000 years ago? They came from ox.
You think chickens would survive in the wild? We modified them.

Changing genes simply changes the characteristics of the plant or animal. It isn't evil. It isn't creating monsters.

But GMO is a boogeyman...like Flouride in toothpaste. There are still people that think that Flouride is a communist plot to control us. And 100 years from now, there will still be people that are bellowing about GMOs.....while they swear that they will stick to their 5 pound purple natural tomatoes.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

(This isn't directed at you, but your post prompted the idea)
Modified food is part of our present too. Ever eat an ear of corn? Corn didn't look like that 10,000 years ago.

We see our food as it is now, but plants and animals evolve. They change. Ever see a dog? Every dog is a genetically modified wolf. You think there were dairy cows, 10,000 years ago? They came from ox.
You think chickens would survive in the wild? We modified them.

Changing genes simply changes the characteristics of the plant or animal. It isn't evil. It isn't creating monsters.

But GMO is a boogeyman...like Flouride in toothpaste. There are still people that think that Flouride is a communist plot to control us. And 100 years from now, there will still be people that are bellowing about GMOs.....while they swear that they will stick to their 5 pound purple natural tomatoes.

Flouride IS a poison and a waste product, and EVERYWHERE! It really doesn't matter if it is some plot to control people.

With the products you are talking about, it was selective breeding and the like. It was NOTHING like what they do now! And people suspected some things were pretty safe for DECADES and held back, letting OTHERS take chances. Foods in that group include potatoes, tomatoes, and eggplants. And HEY, some plants DID end up harmful. Some weren't linked to problems for potentially DECADES. But not every plant here is inherently good for humans.

Steve

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

(This isn't directed at you, but your post prompted the idea)
Modified food is part of our present too. Ever eat an ear of corn? Corn didn't look like that 10,000 years ago.

We see our food as it is now, but plants and animals evolve. They change. Ever see a dog? Every dog is a genetically modified wolf. You think there were dairy cows, 10,000 years ago? They came from ox.
You think chickens would survive in the wild? We modified them.

Changing genes simply changes the characteristics of the plant or animal. It isn't evil. It isn't creating monsters.

But GMO is a boogeyman...like Flouride in toothpaste. There are still people that think that Flouride is a communist plot to control us. And 100 years from now, there will still be people that are bellowing about GMOs.....while they swear that they will stick to their 5 pound purple natural tomatoes.

It's obvious you know little or nothing about gmo's. They are not just changing genes or using selective breeding to produce better plants. They are inserting genes from things like bacteria and splicing them into plants, huge difference.
In the context of what genetic engineering is today, your statement about dogs just being genetically modified wolves is total bullshit.
Can you naturally cross a plant with a bacteria? No they are not only different species but in an entirely different family.
Also there is this about wolves and dogs.

Dogs and wolves evolved from a common ancestor between 9,000 and 34,000 years ago, before humans transitioned to agricultural societies, according to an analysis of modern dog and wolf genomes from areas of the world thought to be centers of dog domestication.

The study, published in PLoS Genetics on January 16, 2014, also shows that dogs are more closely related to each other than wolves, regardless of geographic origin. This suggests that part of the genetic overlap observed between some modern dogs and wolves is the result of interbreeding after dog domestication, not a direct line of descent from one group of wolves. Genomes of modern dogs and wolves provide new insights on domestication -- ScienceDaily

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lanfear63

10 years ago

I have some basic questions.

1) Does the eating of this product or others like it, harm or poison you?

2) Does the product contain any/more/less, vitamins and nutrients that would compare with an organic product.

3) Is there any special growing requirements that will require putting chemicals into the soil that would destroy it.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

I have some basic questions.

1) Does the eating of this product or others like it, harm or poison you?

2) Does the product contain any/more/less, vitamins and nutrients that would compare with an organic product.

3) Is there any special growing requirements that will require putting chemicals into the soil that would destroy it.

1. 10 Scientific Studies Proving GMOs Can Be Harmful To Human Health | Collective-Evolution
2. Comparing Vitamin, Mineral and Energy Content of GMO vs. Non-GMO - Waking Times : Waking Times
3. 5. What effects could genetically modified crops have on the environment?
I think that covers your questions Ian.
The truth is there is still a lot of questions and concerns about gmo's as they pertain to our health and the health of the environment. So far growing gmo's has created more problems then they have solved. Because of the lack of testing and lack of labels on our foods it's extremely hard to associate eating gmo's with our health. That is slowly changing and the out look isn't good,
When you use poisons to grow food, how do you produce healthy food. You don't you end up with food that has been poisoned and an environment that has been poisoned.
Some people call poisoning the environment progress, I tend to disagree.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

In the context of what genetic engineering is today, your statement about dogs just being genetically modified wolves is total bullshit.
.

From Wikipedia;
By 1993 with advancements in molecular biology, the mitochondrial DNA mtDNA analysis of extant (i.e. living today) Canidea species indicated that "The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence.... In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence."[20] In the same year, the domestic dog Canis familiaris was reclassified as Canis lupus familiaris, a subspecies of the gray wolf Canis lupus in Mammal Species of the World.[21] By 1999, further genetic analysis indicated that the domestic dog may have emerged from multiple wolf populations.

And Thom, Of course dogs are closely related. They are all the same species.

You posted this; "Dogs and wolves evolved from a common ancestor between 9,000 and 34,000 years ago".

Yes, and that ancestor was a Gray Wolf.

Added later; I was wrong! Thom was right!

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Dan Riffle

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

From Wikipedia;
By 1993 with advancements in molecular biology, the mitochondrial DNA mtDNA analysis of extant (i.e. living today) Canidea species indicated that "The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence.... In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence."[20] In the same year, the domestic dog Canis familiaris was reclassified as Canis lupus familiaris, a subspecies of the gray wolf Canis lupus in Mammal Species of the World.[21] By 1999, further genetic analysis indicated that the domestic dog may have emerged from multiple wolf populations.

And Thom, Of course dogs are closely related. They are all the same species.

You posted this; "Dogs and wolves evolved from a common ancestor between 9,000 and 34,000 years ago".

Yes, and that ancestor was a Gray Wolf.

Claude, your data is from 1993. Thom's is from 2014. Isn't it possible your data is obsolete? Isn't the truth more important to you than being right?

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BigFrank Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Isn't the truth more important to you than being right?

How would he know? He can't be expected to accurately comment on something he has never experienced.

Cheers. - Frank
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- Dan Riffle 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BigFrank
  
  How would he know? He can't be expected to accurately comment on something he has never experienced.
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  He talks about sex a lot.
  
  Wait...I'm starting to see your point.
  
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butters 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Claude, your data is from 1993. Thom's is from 2014. Isn't it possible your data is obsolete? Isn't the truth more important to you than being right?

I'd also like to add that anyone can edit a wikipedia page, science daily is actually a well know news publisher.

Claud here is the original journal article thom is referring to: PLOS Genetics: Genome Sequencing Highlights the Dynamic Early History of Dogs
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Claude, your data is from 1993. Thom's is from 2014. Isn't it possible your data is obsolete? Isn't the truth more important to you than being right?

You don't know me very well. It is far more important to me that I'm right.

My motto is "Truth be Damned!".

Yes, it's only important to me that I know the truth.

And I just did a different search, for the most recent information...And Thom is right.

That genetic testing came about in 2014. Everything before, said that dogs came from wolves.

But...Thom is right, and I was wrong. And I'm glad it was clarified.

Added later; But dogs are still our creations. We breed them o be different, but they are one species. we literally created every species of dog. But in 2014, it was discovered that dogs did not come directly from wolves, but from a related species.

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Dan Riffle

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

You don't know me very well. It is far more important to me that I'm right.

My motto is "Truth be Damned!".

Yes, it's only important to me that I know the truth.

And I just did a different search, for the most recent information...And Thom is right.

That genetic testing came about in 2014. Everything before, said that dogs came from wolves.

But...Thom is right, and I was wrong. And I'm glad it was clarified.

Quoted for posterity. Otherwise, nobody would believe me.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Quoted for posterity. Otherwise, nobody would believe me.

I know that I don't believe you.

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Dan Riffle

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I know that I don't believe you.

Say what you want, but today we breathe rarified air. Seldom are the days that Claude admits defeat.

And what is that splendid aroma? That, my friends, is Schadenfreude.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Say what you want, but today we breathe rarified air. Seldom are the days that Claude admits defeat.

And what is that splendid aroma? That, my friends, is Schadenfreude.

I know you're joking...

But "defeat"? Learning something new isn't defeat.

In fact, every day that I learn something, means that what I thought yesterday..was wrong. And every man can teach me something.....even you, little fella.....even you.

And what kind of man loves being shown that he's wrong? A Truly Amazing Man.....

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Dan Riffle

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I know you're joking...

But "defeat"? Learning something new isn't defeat.

In fact, every day that I learn something, means that what I thought yesterday..was wrong. And every man can teach me something.....even you, little fella.....even you.

And what kind of man loves being shown that he's wrong? A Truly Amazing Man.....

There's a marked difference between learning something new and being wrong.

I simply revel in your wrongness. No matter how poorly my day is going, seeing you be so thoroughly wrong brightens my soul.

Oh, and what kind of man loves being shown that he's wrong? A man that's used to it.

(I'm not sure how much longer I can muster my faux enjoyment here, but I'm enjoying it nonetheless.)

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

There's a marked difference between learning something new and being wrong.

I simply revel in your wrongness. No matter how poorly my day is going, seeing you be so thoroughly wrong brightens my soul.

Oh, and what kind of man loves being shown that he's wrong? A man that's used to it.

(I'm not sure how much longer I can muster my faux enjoyment here, but I'm enjoying it nonetheless.)

Brilliant lines.......Hilarious, in fact......Genius.................................. ....but I could be wrong.

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lanfear63

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I know you're joking...

But "defeat"? Learning something new isn't defeat.

In fact, every day that I learn something, means that what I thought yesterday..was wrong. And every man can teach me something.....even you, little fella.....even you.

And what kind of man loves being shown that he's wrong? A Truly Amazing Man.....

De-feat is something you haven't seen in a long time, but that's mainly due to your girth.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Butters here's a different way of looking at the gmo issue.
When I was in college studying plant and soil science, we learned that if you use the same herbicide or insecticide to treat a problem, you will create immunities. This is currently what is happening with gmo's. Two traits that are engineered into the main gmo crops (and others) are having a Bt toxin in every cell as an insecticide and making the plant immune to the herbicide Round-up.
First look at the round-up ready trait. This trait allows farmers to spray and kill weeds throughout the growing season using round-up. Previously round-up could only be sprayed before planting or before the seed germinated. With the increased herbicide usage "super weeds" began to appear. This where weeds that happened to be immune to round-up and naturally they reproduced. The g.e. crowds answer to this was to make the plants immune to a stronger herbicide (2-4-D). Common sense tells you that in a short time there will be weeds immune to 2-4-D . The whole purpose of this technology is increased herbicide use (made by the companies that g.e. the plants)
By the way in my own experiences as a certified pest applicator I've seen the same thing happen, but naturally on a much smaller scale.
Now on to the Bt toxin. First it's in every cell of the plant.
The toxin is taken from the bacteria Bacillus thuringiensis which is a common insecticide. In it's natural state when an insect eats it the toxin in the bacteria eats into the stomach wall of the insect and causes it to starve to death. But it is for the most part insect specific.
When they inject this toxin into a plant cell, they have to know it worked. To do that they also inject a type of activator to "turn" the toxin on. When this happens any insect that eats it will die, it's no longer specific. Now naturally like with the round-up, after a short time only the insects that had an immunity to the toxin will survive and reproduce. The G.E. crowds answer to this? Use stronger toxins.
There are always unintended and bad actions caused by what they are doing and their answer has always been to make them worse. Do you see where this is going? What they do is like putting a band aid on a hole in a dam and calling it fixed.

One way or another all those chemicals make their way into the environment non selectively killing and polluting as they go.
You can only poison and kill the environment for so long before it no longer produces the food we need to survive.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Butters here's a different way of looking at the gmo issue.
When I was in college studying plant and soil science, we learned that if you use the same herbicide or insecticide to treat a problem, you will create immunities. This is currently what is happening with gmo's. Two traits that are engineered into the main gmo crops (and others) are having a Bt toxin in every cell as an insecticide and making the plant immune to the herbicide Round-up.
First look at the round-up ready trait. This trait allows farmers to spray and kill weeds throughout the growing season using round-up. Previously round-up could only be sprayed before planting or before the seed germinated. With the increased herbicide usage "super weeds" began to appear. This where weeds that happened to be immune to round-up and naturally they reproduced. The g.e. crowds answer to this was to make the plants immune to a stronger herbicide (2-4-D). Common sense tells you that in a short time there will be weeds immune to 2-4-D . The whole purpose of this technology is increased herbicide use (made by the companies that g.e. the plants)
By the way in my own experiences as a certified pest applicator I've seen the same thing happen, but naturally on a much smaller scale.
Now on to the Bt toxin. First it's in every cell of the plant.
The toxin is taken from the bacteria Bacillus thuringiensis which is a common insecticide. In it's natural state when an insect eats it the toxin in the bacteria eats into the stomach wall of the insect and causes it to starve to death. But it is for the most part insect specific.
When they inject this toxin into a plant cell, they have to know it worked. To do that they also inject a type of activator to "turn" the toxin on. When this happens any insect that eats it will die, it's no longer specific. Now naturally like with the round-up, after a short time only the insects that had an immunity to the toxin will survive and reproduce. The G.E. crowds answer to this? Use stronger toxins.
There are always unintended and bad actions caused by what they are doing and their answer has always been to make them worse. Do you see where this is going? What they do is like putting a band aid on a hole in a dam and calling it fixed.

One way or another all those chemicals make their way into the environment non selectively killing and polluting as they go.
You can only poison and kill the environment for so long before it no longer produces the food we need to survive.

So essentially GMO foods have the same sort of problems as antibiotics and resistance. Interesting, cheers for the comprehensive reply, nice to be a bit informed on the subject

.

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Kay King

10 years ago

This is currently what is happening with gmo's.

It is concerning though much of the science is still "out" on that. My point is that does not necessarily mean "all GMOs are bad, will be bad, can never be acceptable" and that's what too many anti-GMO groups seem focused on.

Adapt, adjust, research, follow up - we've done hybrids of seeds and of flowers and of vegetables and fruits for years. In time, I think there a place for GMO, too. I'm not advocating "free range GMOs" now but saying it has potential for the future and we'd be foolish to shut down "potential" at this point.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

It is concerning thought much of the science is still "out" on that. My point is that does not necessarilyi maen "all GMOs are bad, will be bad, can never be acceptable" and that's what too many anti-GMO groups seem focused on.

Adapt, adjust, research, follow up - we've done hybrids of seeds and of flowers and of vegetables and fruits for years. In time, I think there a place for GMO, too. I'm not advocating "free range GMOs" now but saying it has potential for the future and we'd be foolish to shut down "potential" at this point.

I think I kind of covered that in my post I was making while you where posting

Like I said in other areas of the field they are doing some great stuff.
I think the right way to do it with plants is to keep it in species.
Just like cloning, tissue cultures, and grafting have spend up the process of improving plants, genetic engineering could be used in the same way.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

It is concerning though much of the science is still "out" on that. My point is that does not necessarily mean "all GMOs are bad, will be bad, can never be acceptable" and that's what too many anti-GMO groups seem focused on.

The science was back MILLENIA AGO! COUNT ON IT! Ever hear of SNAKE OIL? How about the radioactive tonics? DDT, DES, DMSO, I could go on and on and on and on, but I don't want to be here the rest of the decade, and you won't read it. But the science on GMO damage was here long before the idea was a glimmer in someones eye!

The fact is that it can be VERY dangerous! As for being acceptable, it would have to be on a case by case basis, tested over like 60 years.

Science has long tried to disprove god, which is really impossible. It has setup false parameters and then proceeded to blow threw them. Some are easy because THEY set the goal. The others they just try to skate around. So NOW, they have determined that the proved god false, though they haven't, and are now to be declared GOD! It is like a video that I watched recently that took a myth built around christmas which was originally a holiday to celebrate the winter solstice, and then "PROVED GOD TO BE FALSE" by proving that christmas was built around the winter solstice. Well DUH! Did YOU know that "Oh tannenbaum", unlike the translation "Oh christmas tree" NEVER mentions christmas or anything religious? It is about the TANNENBAUM(AKA FIR TREE)! O Tannenbaum - O Christmas Tree | German Christmas Carols - Lyrics in German and English | AboutGerman.net They mistranslated tannenbaum, but own up to it in the blurb that says "ABOUT THIS CAROL" But look at the REST of the carol!

Anyway, they now feel free to use GMO, ETC... They don't even know why rats and monkeys are used anymore. RATS are used because they are animals that replicate quickly, and monkeys are used because they are supposedly close to humans. Thalidomide apparently does NOTHING to ANY primate, ******EXCEPT HUMANS******! Thalidomide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia AGAIN, this was WELL KNOWN when I was a kid, but more and more of the affected people are disappearing, though I DID see a couple on TED videos. They are VERY easy to spot! So human tests are needed sooner or later. Day 1 of my 60 year timeframe is when they start ON HUMANS! Maybe YOU can be one of the guinea pigs.

Steve

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Adapt, adjust, research, follow up - we've done hybrids of seeds and of flowers and of vegetables and fruits for years. In time, I think there a place for GMO, too. I'm not advocating "free range GMOs" now but saying it has potential for the future and we'd be foolish to shut down "potential" at this point.

I think Kay has a point. Adapt, adjust, research, follow up... Let's look at sciences and the history of research. Medical research, the drugs started out toxic, engines (high in pollution), you get the point im getting at... Science adapts, it adjusts, it does more research and then it follows up by repeating this cycle over and over. Yes right now GMOs may be toxic, high in pollution etc... But, that will not be the future, we will do them lovely four words until we get it right.

I actually really like them four words!

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

I'm ashamed of my country because of this

News - Canadian grown non-browning GMO apple gets approved for sale - The Weather Network

I never in a million years thought our country would approve GMO foods -

I'm ashamed of my country for approving them for sale

Kay, there's a whole list of reasons why they should be currently banned. That list covers reasons on how they are grown right up to how they are hidden in the foods we eat.
For the most part the "movement" wants them labeled. The "movement also wants more testing done on how they actually effect humans and our environment. We're sick of the corporate controled "science" they give us as proof they are safe.
There are many types of genetic engineering they've gotten right, but when it comes to the plant mutations they create they got it 100% wrong.
As for banning them, as long as they continue to use the agriculture practices to grow them that they do then yes they should be banned.

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Karen Blundell

10 years ago

I definitely want labeling - I think people should know exactly what they are buying. How many people will knowingly buy GMO foods, do you think? I know I am not the only one reading labels before I decide to buy something.

I ran into another woman at a local grocery store who was checking a label of a food that I was also examining. It was a can of peaches. The choice was peaches packed in concentrated fruit juice or packed in water. One would think that the one packed in water would be better, right? Nope - it was sweetened with sucralose - so I bought the one packed in concentrated pear juice.

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butters 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

How many people will knowingly buy GMO foods

I agree, there needs to be clear labelling. I got nothing against GMO food myself but I will always buy fresh and organic just for the fact it tastes better. To answer the quote above, probably quite a lot of people will. GMO will be cheap, last longer and more then likely bigger in size. I can see quite a lot of people buying it, especially in this climate.

Also, if you think about it, GMO foods are inevitable based on the fact that the population of world is constantly growing, there just won't be enough to feed everyone. It could potentially save countries from starvation.

I got no idea on the science behind it, I have never really looked at it myself but the theory behind it sounds kind of good in terms of preventing starvation.
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Kay King

10 years ago

So many corporations (or even individuals) will do anything for money.

That's the problem we have currently with GMO. However, that problem will resolve itself in time. If people are truly harmed by these foods, the companies won't be able to cover it up. The lawsuits and liability will force change if nothing else does.

If 10 or 20 more years go by with no proven damage to the environment or to people who eat GMOs....at some point it will be an accepted growing method. You can only claim "danger" for so long - either the facts prove you right or prove you wrong.

I am definitely for labeling. People should know what they are buying and have a choice in the matter.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

That's the problem we have currently with GMO. However, that problem will resolve itself in time. If people are truly harmed by these foods, the companies won't be able to cover it up. The lawsuits and liability will force change if nothing else does.

If 10 or 20 more years go by with no proven damage to the environment or to people who eat GMOs....at some point it will be an accepted growing method. You can only claim "danger" for so long - either the facts prove you right or prove you wrong.

I am definitely for labeling. People should know what they are buying and have a choice in the matter.

Here's the thing Kay. There already is proven damage to the environment. There are two traits that are in almost all of the "approved" g.e. crops in the U.S. 1 is they are round-up ready. The amount of Glyphosate found now in the environment has increased in pace with the expansion of planting these crops. The U.S.G.S. did a study a couple years back of the water in and around the Mississippi river basin and it's tributaries. The sampled ground water, river water, tributary water, any where they could find water they sampled it. Glyphosate showed up in high concentrations in all of it.
A group of pregnant women where tested in Canada, all had Glphosate in their bodies. Finding studies on the health effects of eating g.m.o's are hard to come by. When ever an independent study is done showing possible harm it's either swept under the rug or industry scientist come up with their own rigged studies to prove them wrong. Guess who the government and media listen to.
2. The bacteria toxin used in Bt crops works by eating into the gut of an insect so the insect can no longer eat. It's the bacteria in insects and our stomaches and bowels that do much of the work in transforming our food into nutrients. There has never been a study to determine how that bacteria toxin (that is active) effects our guy bacteria. The industry insists it has studied it, but claims it isn't active when we eat it. As for independent studies, read the last paragraph of 1.

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ThomM 10 years ago

I was just double checking something and saw where I made a mistake. It wasn't Glyphosate the found in those women it was the Bt toxin. Bt toxin found in blood of pregnant women and fetuses
Here's something else on the environmental side. Study ties GMO corn, soybeans to butterfly losses | Star Tribune
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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Here's the thing Kay. There already is proven damage to the environment. There are two traits that are in almost all of the "approved" g.e. crops in the U.S. 1 is they are round-up ready. The amount of Glyphosate found now in the environment has increased in pace with the expansion of planting these crops. The U.S.G.S. did a study a couple years back of the water in and around the Mississippi river basin and it's tributaries. The sampled ground water, river water, tributary water, any where they could find water they sampled it. Glyphosate showed up in high concentrations in all of it.
A group of pregnant women where tested in Canada, all had Glphosate in their bodies. Finding studies on the health effects of eating g.m.o's are hard to come by. When ever an independent study is done showing possible harm it's either swept under the rug or industry scientist come up with their own rigged studies to prove them wrong. Guess who the government and media listen to.
2. The bacteria toxin used in Bt crops works by eating into the gut of an insect so the insect can no longer eat. It's the bacteria in insects and our stomaches and bowels that do much of the work in transforming our food into nutrients. There has never been a study to determine how that bacteria toxin (that is active) effects our guy bacteria. The industry insists it has studied it, but claims it isn't active when we eat it. As for independent studies, read the last paragraph of 1.

BTW Glyphosate is apparently linked to alzheimers. It has been considered TOXIC to all animals for DECADES! Read the warnings! The ONLY thing it is used for is killing plants you don't want. A couple drops can KILL a VERY hardy weed! There is a weed in my area. I wish I knew the name. There is ractically NO way to kill it. It has spines so any animal trying to pull it out is likely to get badly hurt. STILL, you could grab it, pull it out, chop them down and who knows what else, and they will, like the mythical hydra of greek mythology, simply sprout up everywhere else! STILL, a few drops of Glyphosate will OBLITERATE IT!

Is it ANY reason why people were trying to make plants survive it? For a while, I had two herbicides, and ONLY two. ONE is roundup, which kills ANYTHING! The other was a far less capable product that only killed some broadleaf plants. IT was good because it wouldn't affect grass. STILL, I am now staying away from any such product.

And 10-20 years is NOT long enough! You would need like 60 years to test it! WHY? Because humans live to be maybe 100+, and generally don't have kids until about 20. This means the ******MINIMUM****** time to get meaningful statistics for humans is about 40 years. You PROBABLY want a minimum of 60 years, to account for 3 generations.

And lest you think I am being too careful, etc.... CHECK OUT DES!!!!!!! Diethylstilbestrol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I have heard of some WEIRDER things that don't seem to be listed, but they sound like sci fi type things, although real. STILL, this shows weird things demonstrated in males and females over 3 generations, though many don't make it that far.

Steve

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ThomM

10 years ago

When I was studying weed control in college the professor would also state studies done by the chemical companies. He would say something like "After 5 years of exposure the applicators showed no ill effects." So I would ask "What about after 6 years?"

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

When I was studying weed control in college the professor would also state studies done by the chemical companies. He would say something like "After 5 years of exposure the applicators showed no ill effects." So I would ask "What about after 6 years?"

I would say there comes a point where you have to stop? The EPA run a study which made up a diet of the highest intake of food sprayed with Glyphosate and found no effect. Our diets would be significantly less in terms of the amount of Glyphosate on our food based on the EPA run a worse case scenario.

This is the whole oxidative stress argument all over again!

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

I would say there comes a point where you have to stop? The EPA run a study which made up a diet of the highest intake of food sprayed with Glyphosate and found no effect. Our diets would be significantly less in terms of the amount of Glyphosate on our food based on the EPA run a worse case scenario.

This is the whole oxidative stress argument all over again!

Butters you do know that Monsato has former employees in key positions in the E.P.A., F.D.A., and a former governor who flew around his state in a Monsanto private jet while he campaigned as head of the U.S.D.A.. So I would,'t put much faith in the Environmental Protection Agency that raises the allowable amounts of pesticide residues to meet the needs of the chemical companies.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Butters you do know that Monsato has former employees in key positions in the E.P.A., F.D.A., and a former governor who flew around his state in a Monsanto private jet while he campaigned as head of the U.S.D.A.. So I would,'t put much faith in the Environmental Protection Agency that raises the allowable amounts of pesticide residues to meet the needs of the chemical companies.

Monsanto is all over our legal and legislative system. They actually wrote the Monsanto protection act, which is an obnoxiously flagrant violation of the people's rights to not be poisoned and farmers rights as well.

Monsanto's going to be hard to stop. They won out on the labeling law here by spending millions on false ads. Now here's the fun -- the ads are libelous, and they will get sued again for false advertising (as they were in California) - but it doesn't matter and won't come out of their profits - because they are being subsidized with our tax money to the tune of 9 figures.

I started studying the population problem in the early 70's. When the UN started the Milleneum talks (somewhere around 1990) - that's what they were about. They were trying to devise population control strategies and were already recognizing the dangers of urban sprawl, etc. At one point it was suggested to enforce a global policy of one child like China and then abandoned it because they expected mass revolt against it. About that time they came out with the first GMO crops -- and found that they are sterilizing. They sterilize within three generations. The babies the lab rats had were smaller, less healthy -- and then in a few generations, very few.

This is the reason they are fighting labeling so hard. The general population doesn't recognize a GMO food when they see it.

It makes farming more expensive because of the pesticide cost and the need to buy seed each season rather than using some crop for reseed.
It uses way more water.
It causes health problems and sterilizes.
It kills soil building microbes.
It kills bees and other pollinators.
It spreads pesticides throughout our environment.
It's now known that the "more yield" is false.

There's not one plus to these crops outside of population control -- and if we allow them to kill off the bees, that's some real population control that we don't even want to have to face the reality of.

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Monsanto is all over our legal and legislative system. They actually wrote the Monsanto protection act, which is an obnoxiously flagrant violation of the people's rights to not be poisoned and farmers rights as well.

Monsanto's going to be hard to stop. They won out on the labeling law here by spending millions on false ads. Now here's the fun -- the ads are libelous, and they will get sued again for false advertising (as they were in California) - but it doesn't matter and won't come out of their profits - because they are being subsidized with our tax money to the tune of 9 figures.

I started studying the population problem in the early 70's. When the UN started the Milleneum talks (somewhere around 1990) - that's what they were about. They were trying to devise population control strategies and were already recognizing the dangers of urban sprawl, etc. At one point it was suggested to enforce a global policy of one child like China and then abandoned it because they expected mass revolt against it. About that time they came out with the first GMO crops -- and found that they are sterilizing. They sterilize within three generations. The babies the lab rats had were smaller, less healthy -- and then in a few generations, very few.

This is the reason they are fighting labeling so hard. The general population doesn't recognize a GMO food when they see it.

It makes farming more expensive because of the pesticide cost and the need to buy seed each season rather than using some crop for reseed.
It uses way more water.
It causes health problems and sterilizes.
It kills soil building microbes.
It kills bees and other pollinators.
It spreads pesticides throughout our environment.
It's now known that the "more yield" is false.

There's not one plus to these crops outside of population control -- and if we allow them to kill off the bees, that's some real population control that we don't even want to have to face the reality of.

Unbelievable, all this nonsense to keep population control, under control!

Understandable when individuals breed like rabbits so they can sponge of the gov,.

The ironic thing about all of this is if we shared all resources equally, there would be no poor!!!! And more living space than we needed.

Not to mention, burying zero energy, (which does work) that could put the poor on an equal footing, it would obviously crash the stock market and put 100,000+ jobs in jeopardy!

But if it is throwing an oil engineer on the street or watch a thousand poor individuals die or suffer needlessly, then l know which one l would choose!

Maybe money is the root of all evil?

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Karen Blundell

10 years ago

I have a neighbour 2 doors from my apartment who is a naturalist - she gave me 2 "stop Monsanto" stickers -
so I placed one at the entrance of my apartment.
Most people who live in this town don't know anything about Monsanto and when they ask me they seem to lose interest - because they are more concerned about getting by and/or high - this town's dubious distinction is having the busiest beer store in all of Ontario despite being economically depressed - so what does that tell you?

The farmers close by, though, are right into organics. They are a vocal bunch and well informed. They make me proud to live in the Niagara region and I happily buy their fresh produce in season despite the fact they cost a lot more than the grocery story produce.

Speaking of organics, I found some excellent and inexpensive organic red wine from Italy sold in our local liquor store. After talking to the store clerks I discovered that there are more varieties of organic wines sold there so I will be checking them out. Cheers!

Sal, I ran out of Thanks - but I just want to highlight this part of what you posted and why those of us who are anti-GMO are so passionate about it:

It makes farming more expensive because of the pesticide cost and the need to buy seed each season rather than using some crop for reseed.
It uses way more water.
It causes health problems and sterilizes.
It kills soil building microbes.
It kills bees and other pollinators.
It spreads pesticides throughout our environment.
It's now known that the "more yield" is false.

There's not one plus to these crops outside of population control -- and if we allow them to kill off the bees, that's some real population control that we don't even want to have to face the reality of.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

I have a neighbour 2 doors from my apartment who is a naturalist - she gave me 2 "stop Monsanto" stickers -
so I placed one at the entrance of my apartment.
Most people who live in this town don't know anything about Monsanto and when they ask me they seem to lose interest - because they are more concerned about getting by and/or high - this town's dubious distinction is having the busiest beer store in all of Ontario despite being economically depressed - so what does that tell you?

The farmers close by, though, are right into organics. They are a vocal bunch and well informed. They make me proud to live in the Niagara region and I happily buy their fresh produce in season despite the fact they cost a lot more than the grocery story produce.

Speaking of organics, I found some excellent and inexpensive organic red wine from Italy sold in our local liquor store. After talking to the store clerks I discovered that there are more varieties of organic wines sold there so I will be checking them out. Cheers!

Sal, I ran out of Thanks - but I just want to highlight this part of what you posted and why those of us who are anti-GMO are so passionate about it:

I am constantly amazed at the people around here who are aware of gmo's in their food. Same goes with the fluoride in water. The city of Troy has a spring where I've gotten water for years. Years ago if you asked someone at the spring why they get their water there they'd say because it tastes good. You go there today and almost everyone will say it's because of the chemicals in the city water.
The farmers around here now are a mixed bunch. The nearest one to me raises grass fed Angus beef cows. He doesn't clam them to be organic because of the cost of certification, instead he says they are fed a 100% natural diet. He doesn't buy any feed insuring they eat only what they are suppose to.
There are a couple farms about 20 miles from me that grow g.m. corn. But then there are more farms that have signs up that say "NO GMO'S". There is one hod farmer who butchers and sells on premise who has a big hand painted sign up saying "NO GMO's". He told me once that his business picked up after he did the sign.
During the summer you can't spit without hitting a farmers market or farm stand. The majority of the people that sell at them either grow organic or the products they make are organic.
My garden has always been organic, at first because that's how my father taught me to garden. Until I get a better fence up I call it my wildlife grocery store

Even in years with no rain I only water it when I plant and I haven't used any fertilizers in years (even organic fertilizer). I rely on mulch and compost and inoculate it with a couple different Fungi that have a symbiotic relationship with the vegetable plants. The main Fungi I use is an Elm Oyster (Hypsizygus ulmarius) I put a layer of wood chips down below the mulch and compost for them to feed on. The funny thing is I've never had them sprout fruit (the actual mushroom part) in the garden but instead on the wood pile about 20 ft. from the garden.
Growing organic is completely different from growing in the so called conventional way. The main focus with organics is in creating a healthy soil. Instead of feeding the plants (like conventional farmers and gardeners do) you feed the soil and let the soil feed the plants. Healthy soil equals healthy plants. Plants that can withstand diseases, insects, and weeds.

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ThomM

10 years ago

I just came across this article about using fungi in crops for various controls.
Fungus May Save Crops from Disease and Global Warming - Scientific American

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butters 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I just came across this article about using fungi in crops for various controls.
Fungus May Save Crops from Disease and Global Warming - Scientific American

Sounds good, I'm sure this is in its very early stages but it fits in perfectly with what Kay said.
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- ThomM 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by butters
  
  Sounds good, I'm sure this is in its very early stages but it fits in perfectly with what Kay said.
  
  This is more about inoculating then genetic engineering.
  It's new that they found the Fungi inside the plants, though I wonder what they mean about "relatively recently". I remember learning about Endopyhtes in college. I think in the Plant Pathology course (that was around 25 years ago). I know from just refreshing my knowledge on them that the first billion dollar cancer drug came from them. I've certainly known about the symbiotic relationships between some Fungi, Bacteria, and plants, in fact that's a corner stone of organic farming and gardening. When an organic gardener says they feed the soil and not the plant, what they mean is feeding the microbes and other critters in the soil that turn that into the nutrients for the plants.
  Fungi have so many uses that people don't realize.
  I get my spores for Paul Stamets site Fungi Perfecti.
  If you want to learn a little more about what Fungi are capable of, there's a good article some of Pauls work here. How mushrooms will save the world - Salon.com
  
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Cali16

10 years ago

Just found this interesting article regarding the U.S. government's ban on the use of GMOs and toxic pesticides in wildlife refuges. So, it's okay to poison animals raised as food with GMO feed, continue to plant GMO crops, and kill off the bees with toxic pesticides in the rest of the country??? SMH

The U.S. Bans GMOs, Bee-Killing Pesticides in All Wildlife Refuges

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cali16

Just found this interesting article regarding the U.S. government's ban on the use of GMOs and toxic pesticides in wildlife refuges. So, it's okay to poison animals raised as food with GMO feed, continue to plant GMO crops, and kill off the bees with toxic pesticides in the rest of the country??? SMH

The U.S. Bans GMOs, Bee-Killing Pesticides in All Wildlife Refuges

I remember reading that last summer. I'm glad they're doing it but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't do much. G.e seeds are coated with neonicotinoids and when you conceder that approx. 80% of all corn, soy, and cotton grown in the U.S. is genetically engineered you can see the ban in wild life refuges is just a drop in the bucket.

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Cali16

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

... you can see the ban in wild life refuges is just a drop in the bucket.

Agreed. And that's why it makes me so angry. I'm genuinely glad they at least care about the wildlife, but since they obviously recognize the harm that GMOs and pesticides are causing, why ban them only on wildlife refuges?

Moronic and hypocritical.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cali16

Agreed. And that's why it makes me so angry. I'm genuinely glad they at least care about the wildlife, but since they obviously recognize the harm the GMOs and pesticides are causing, why ban them only on wildlife refuges?

Moronic and hypocritical.

Bees and the like spread and compete, so limiting the pesticides only on reserves doesn't cut it.

Steve

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tagiscom

10 years ago

And if GMO apples weren't enough, in AU, we have Berries from China or India, with Hep - A!

I took this image today, 19,2,15, in Coles and they are still selling this s***!

Hep - A berries are on special, apparently!

It does say do not restock, so they are probably selling old stock, which is probably safe? Even if they sent it to the lab, l wouldn't touch it!

I would rather eat fish near the damaged Chinese nuclear power plant!

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Richard Van

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

And if GMO apples weren't enough, in AU, we have Berries from China or India, with Hep - A!

I took this image today, 19,2,15, in Coles and they are still selling this s***!

Hep - A berries are on special, apparently!

It does say do not restock, so they are probably selling old stock, which is probably safe? Even if they sent it to the lab, l wouldn't touch it!

I would rather eat fish near the damaged Chinese nuclear power plant!

Seriously? Hepatitis A berries? That's incredible when you consider how strict they are on allowing anyone flying into the country not to carry fruit, plants and food stuffs from abroad.

By the way, did you mean Fukushima? In Japan, the nuclear place that got hit by the Tsunami? I think I'd happily eat the fish there instead of that stuff too.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Seriously? Hepatitis A berries? That's incredible when you consider how strict they are on allowing anyone flying into the country not to carry fruit, plants and food stuffs from abroad.

By the way, did you mean Fukushima? In Japan, the nuclear place that got hit by the Tsunami? I think I'd happily eat the fish there instead of that stuff too.

GM fish

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Richard Van 10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

GM fish

Noooooo! Does this mean the Simpsons are GM too? That fish looks like them and they're bright yellow!
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- butters 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Richard Van
  
  Noooooo! Does this mean the Simpsons are GM too? That fish looks like them and they're bright yellow!
  
  I think they may be!! Or they are all alcoholics with liver disease!
  
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Kurt

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

And if GMO apples weren't enough, in AU, we have Berries from China or India, with Hep - A!

I took this image today, 19,2,15, in Coles and they are still selling this s***!

Hep - A berries are on special, apparently!

It does say do not restock, so they are probably selling old stock, which is probably safe? Even if they sent it to the lab, l wouldn't touch it!

I would rather eat fish near the damaged Chinese nuclear power plant!

What about the Nanna's Bananas Carlos Santana bought from Hannah Montana while he was in Santa Anna?

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Seriously? Hepatitis A berries? That's incredible when you consider how strict they are on allowing anyone flying into the country not to carry fruit, plants and food stuffs from abroad.

By the way, did you mean Fukushima? In Japan, the nuclear place that got hit by the Tsunami? I think I'd happily eat the fish there instead of that stuff too.

Yep, Fukushima! Well, in AU, on all the tv stations, etc, they are warning about this product. Apparently we expect 100 people to come down with Hep -A. But if you eat this product, (the dark Berrie product on the right) and don't become sick within 7 weeks, then you are in the clear!

Some Chinese and Indian farmers use faecial matter, to grow their berries; even when frozen on the container ship, it can still cause Hepatitis - A. Thankfully Australia grows blueberries and our farming practices aren't backyard like theirs are.

I watched some individuals buying frozen vegetables, from the freezer today, and just like me they were double checking to make sure it was grown here!

I just hope a terrorist doesn't buy this and send a berry to our politicians?

Take the blue berrie, instead of the red, hmmmm, not worth it!

Originally Posted by Kurt

What about the Nanna's Bananas Carlos Santana bought from Hannah Montana while he was in Santa Anna?

No, l would rather have some Peppers, Peter Picked, unless it is from China, then Peter can Pickle himself, LOL!

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

And if GMO apples weren't enough, in AU, we have Berries from China or India, with Hep - A!

I took this image today, 19,2,15, in Coles and they are still selling this s***!

Hep - A berries are on special, apparently!

It does say do not restock, so they are probably selling old stock, which is probably safe? Even if they sent it to the lab, l wouldn't touch it!

I would rather eat fish near the damaged Chinese nuclear power plant!

IN AUSTRALIA? I would have thought they would have REALLY recalled them! OH WELL, in the US, NO SIGNS OR ANYTHING, I was told not to take a particular protein bar because it was RECALLED! But that is in the US! By several measures, the US isn't even a country anymore, or even ITSELF ANYMORE, so I don't really expect it to be great. The US is like a company that has been bought out by some competitor and is being sold off piecemeal for spare change. AND, with today's economy, that statement might hit closer to reality than I planned.

But for a FOOD store in a first world country to openly indicate that they are selling a product that should legally be treated like a DISEASE? That is beyond the pale!

Steve

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

IN AUSTRALIA? I would have thought they would have REALLY recalled them! OH WELL, in the US, NO SIGNS OR ANYTHING, I was told not to take a particular protein bar because it was RECALLED! But that is in the US! By several measures, the US isn't even a country anymore, or even ITSELF ANYMORE, so I don't really expect it to be great. The US is like a company that has been bought out by some competitor and is being sold off piecemeal for spare change. AND, with today's economy, that statement might hit closer to reality than I planned.

But for a FOOD store in a first world country to openly indicate that they are selling a product that should legally be treated like a DISEASE? That is beyond the pale!

Steve

No, not that much, l have gone into Coles before and almost bought a raw fish product that was a year over its use by date!

And let's just say when l walk past its raw fish department, l walk fast or risk, grabbing the nearest bucket!

Safeway's is a lot better, but if you compare it with a fish store from outside these supermarkets, there is no comparison!

A difference between a 20 year old who doesn't have a clue and an adult that personally goes to the fish markets and buys it!

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cali16

Just found this interesting article regarding the U.S. government's ban on the use of GMOs and toxic pesticides in wildlife refuges. So, it's okay to poison animals raised as food with GMO feed, continue to plant GMO crops, and kill off the bees with toxic pesticides in the rest of the country??? SMH

The U.S. Bans GMOs, Bee-Killing Pesticides in All Wildlife Refuges

Right? It's the same with sodium fluoride, which is not natural calcium fluoride - it's industrial waste. The gov told the industries it was too deadly poisonous to dump so what did they devise to get rid of it? Tell us it's good for teeth and dump it in our water. People that trust a gov that allows these kinds of things are batshyte loony.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Right? It's the same with sodium fluoride, which is not natural calcium fluoride - it's industrial waste. The gov told the industries it was too deadly poisonous to dump so what did they devise to get rid of it? Tell us it's good for teeth and dump it in our water. People that trust a gov that allows these kinds of things are batshyte loony.

So what does the fluoride do? From what I can see it causes oxidative stress apparently?

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

So what does the fluoride do? From what I can see it causes oxidative stress apparently?

Check out the other pages, too. There's a lot of communities fighting against fluoride - and a lot of them are winning!.
Fluoride Action Network | Health Effects

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Check out the other pages, too. There's a lot of communities fighting against fluoride - and a lot of them are winning!.
Fluoride Action Network | Health Effects

So, they would risk human health to null society, and save money!

Disgusting, l think that after reading that, no-one here could take a Doctor seriously about Cancer treatments anymore!

No, wonder when l go out and try to drink some tap water l ALWAYS feel sick after half a glass.

I will certainly fill my Mother in, next time l go out with her to a coffee shop and she gawks at me when l bring out my filtered tap water bottle than drink their s****!

Thanks for the heads up Sal!

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

So, they would risk human health to null society, and save money!

Disgusting, l think that after reading that, no-one here could take a Doctor seriously about Cancer treatments anymore!

Consider I'm about to write an essay for uni on alternative treatments for cancer, what do you suggest? Obviously the treatments in effect work, kinda curious what your alternatives are.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Consider I'm about to write an essay for uni on alternative treatments for cancer, what do you suggest? Obviously the treatments in effect work, kinda curious what your alternatives are.

Check out Rick Simpson Phoenix Tears | Rick Simpson

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ThomM 10 years ago

No, wonder when l go out and try to drink some tap water l ALWAYS feel sick after half a glass.

When I was a kid we had a well at the house I currently live in and always got our water from a spring in the winter when we had to stay in town (before they plowed our road here in the country). When they built a house on the hill in back of me their septic tank contaminated the spring feeding our well so we got "city" water or tap water. Neither my father or I could drink it because it would make us sick. Even now if I drink more then a glass of it I get slightly sick, yet I can drink the spring water all day with no problems.
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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Consider I'm about to write an essay for uni on alternative treatments for cancer, what do you suggest? Obviously the treatments in effect work, kinda curious what your alternatives are.

Sal could answer that one for you!

But my Mother went through the Cancer thing. Chemo, Radio, Op, etc. And eventhough it seemed to remove all trace, it still seems llke a barbaric, expensive and unnecessary procedure!

Cancer treatments are big business, (l have been to the Cancer ward in the hospital near me) and wouldn't be surprised if they are not making over a million a month!

So, if they realized that eating certain herbs, would cure Cancer, l can more than guarantee you it would be buried!

As usual stinking money takes precedence over human suffering!

Radiotherapy works, LOL, so called radio, (short for concentrated radiation bombarding cancerous cells) obviously kills the cells, but it is using one of the rays atomic explosions produce.

So, doctors are using something that will probably give the individual Cancer to cure Cancerous cells!

If you research this best to research all cures, not the sell your house to cure Cancer one's Doctors/Phar, company's advocate!

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

Sal could answer that one for you!

But my Mother went through the Cancer thing. Chemo, Radio, Op, etc. And eventhough it seemed to remove all trace, it still seems llke a barbaric, expensive and unnecessary procedure!

Sorry to hear that about your mother, want to state that first. Don't get me wrong, doctors know that most cancer treatments are essentially poisons, they will cause pain, discomfort and only have a certain percentage chance of working. Thats what the current state of immunotherapy is right now, I agree it is barbaric to a certain extent but it is one of them, do the pros out weight the cons. This, in my mind anyway, they do. While it may cause the patient pain and cost a great deal on money (I think this may be a US problem, not sure if its free on the NHS) it is effective at what it does. I wouldn't agree it was unnecessary procedure because it did its job, it got rid of the cancer. Yes, the cancer may come back but leaving cancer to metastasise is much, much more dangerous.

So, if they realized that eating certain herbs, would cure Cancer, l can more than guarantee you it would be buried!

Maybe but I don't believe so one bit. Here is why, maybe back in the days when technology wasn't where it is, I could agree but now, not so much. Cancer is a world wide disease, there are 100's of charities researching various forms of cancers right now, there are studies being carried out by universities and medschools. There are individual studies being carried out, there are studies being carried out by the crazy people. All of these are accessible in peer reviewed journals. Everyone has access to their data and methodology, it is in essence, impossible to bury data now days because of the internet. Fine you could argue that big pharma companies are the only people with the means to bring a drug to market but i don't think thats true. A lot of clinical studies are carried out weekly by individuals, hospitals, schools etc... If the science behind the studies was correct, then it would be published for all to see. Basically what I am getting out to sum it up, with the internet becoming what it is, hiding data is becoming massively harder.

Radiotherapy works, LOL, so called radio, (short for concentrated radiation bombarding cancerous cells) obviously kills the cells, but it is using one of the rays atomic explosions produce.

So, doctors are using something that will probably give the individual Cancer to cure Cancerous cells!

The alternative is normally a shorter life span, it then becomes up to the individual.

If you research this best to research all cures, not the sell your house to cure Cancer one's Doctors/Phar, company's advocate!

Im currently looking at alternative and unfortunately apart from a few traditional chines medicines which have been approved by the FDA and NHS anyway, its not looking good for them.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Consider I'm about to write an essay for uni on alternative treatments for cancer, what do you suggest? Obviously the treatments in effect work, kinda curious what your alternatives are.

Here's another site worth checking out. The History of Essiac and Rene M. Caisse, Canada's Nurse

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Here's another site worth checking out. The History of Essiac and Rene M. Caisse, Canada's Nurse

Had a quick look at it and its a shame that this product is based on free radicals. Yes there are some form of free radicals in cancer patients but this is by far not the main cause of inflammation and scarring... It seems that most of the products look at fixing oxidative stress (Free radicals cause this), this isn't even close to solving cancer.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Had a quick look at it and its a shame that this product is based on free radicals. Yes there are some form of free radicals in cancer patients but this is by far not the main cause of inflammation and scarring... It seems that most of the products look at fixing oxidative stress (Free radicals cause this), this isn't even close to solving cancer.

It did help my wife a little when she had cancer, but by the time the doctors found out she had cancer and not ulcers it was to advanced for anything to work. We also changed her diet after buying every book we could find on cancer and nutrition. That and smoking cannabis helped her deal with the chemo treatments much better.
By the way she started with rectal cancer. By the time she was correctly diagnosed it had spread throughout ending with a huge tumor in her liver. After surgery to remove some of the cancer I was told she had 4 months tops to live. She went a little over a year before she died. The hospice nurse told me that there was a good chance that the diet change, Essaic, and cannabis are what kept her going for that long. Her cancer doctor had the balls to tell me that diet didn't matter once you had cancer (this is back in 2001). Security had to escort me out of the hospital that day

I'm not saying Essaic is the cure, but I think it did help her if even in a small way.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

It did help my wife a little when she had cancer, but by the time the doctors found out she had cancer and not ulcers it was to advanced for anything to work. We also changed her diet after buying every book we could find on cancer and nutrition. That and smoking cannabis helped her deal with the chemo treatments much better.
By the way she started with rectal cancer. By the time she was correctly diagnosed it had spread throughout ending with a huge tumor in her liver. After surgery to remove some of the cancer I was told she had 4 months tops to live. She went a little over a year before she died. The hospice nurse told me that there was a good chance that the diet change, Essaic, and cannabis are what kept her going for that long. Her cancer doctor had the balls to tell me that diet didn't matter once you had cancer (this is back in 2001). Security had to escort me out of the hospital that day

I'm not saying Essaic is the cure, but I think it did help her if even in a small way.

Sorry to hear that dude... What I am starting to realise by researching this essay (its actually a really interesting essay for once!) is that mental well being plays a role. Ok, scientifically speaking some things may not effect the cancer in anyway but the thought to the patient that it is helping them, helps the overall outcome. It's like the placebo effect, thats the best way of describing it. Scientifically speaking Yoga has 0 effect on curing cancer but it effects there quality of life and other symptoms like depression, anxiety etc... Fascinating essay, later tonight I will be looking into some of the alternative diets out their, some seems crazy, some seem plausible to an extent.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Sorry to hear that dude... What I am starting to realise by researching this essay (its actually a really interesting essay for once!) is that mental well being plays a role. Ok, scientifically speaking some things may not effect the cancer in anyway but the thought to the patient that it is helping them, helps the overall outcome. It's like the placebo effect, thats the best way of describing it. Scientifically speaking Yoga has 0 effect on curing cancer but it effects there quality of life and other symptoms like depression, anxiety etc... Fascinating essay, later tonight I will be looking into some of the alternative diets out their, some seems crazy, some seem plausible to an extent.

I agree completely with that. As for changing her diet we didn't go with anything crazy. We weren't looking at the food as a way to cure her cancer but as a way to increase her health to help her body fight it. One food that always stood out was spinach. She would be laying in bed, drained and after eating a bowl of fresh spinach she'd have me out shopping with her.
It's kind of weird this subject came up today. She died at 5:05 pm on 2/20/02.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I agree completely with that. As for changing her diet we didn't go with anything crazy. We weren't looking at the food as a way to cure her cancer but as a way to increase her health to help her body fight it. One food that always stood out was spinach. She would be laying in bed, drained and after eating a bowl of fresh spinach she'd have me out shopping with her.
It's kind of weird this subject came up today. She died at 5:05 pm on 2/20/02.

Thom; I'm truly sorry for your loss.

I was thinking the same thing about attitude, Yoga, diet. If it can increase your general health, it helps fight Cancer. Plus, exercise and healthy food make you feel better anyway.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Thom; I'm truly sorry for your loss.

I was thinking the same thing about attitude, Yoga, diet. If it can increase your general health, it helps fight Cancer. Plus, exercise and healthy food make you feel better anyway.

Thanks Claude.
I've found with my different health issues that attitude is probably my strongest tool. That and trying to find the cause or triggers for whatever is wrong and eliminating them.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I agree completely with that. As for changing her diet we didn't go with anything crazy. We weren't looking at the food as a way to cure her cancer but as a way to increase her health to help her body fight it. One food that always stood out was spinach. She would be laying in bed, drained and after eating a bowl of fresh spinach she'd have me out shopping with her.
It's kind of weird this subject came up today. She died at 5:05 pm on 2/20/02.

Sorry dude, you have my sympathies. I just had a little google of what is actually in spinach, its pretty much a good source of everything

. Good diet and light exercise increases your overall quality of life in healthy people... It plays a role in people with disease to, if your healthy and eating well, your in prime condition to fight what you need to fight!

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Sorry dude, you have my sympathies. I just had a little google of what is actually in spinach, its pretty much a good source of everything

. Good diet and light exercise increases your overall quality of life in healthy people... It plays a role in people with disease to, if your healthy and eating well, your in prime condition to fight what you need to fight!

Thanks Butters.
I love spinach! It's one of the few things I plant in my garden every year that I refuse to let the wildlife eat

It was during that time with my wife when I realized just how important the foods we eat are.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Consider I'm about to write an essay for uni on alternative treatments for cancer, what do you suggest? Obviously the treatments in effect work, kinda curious what your alternatives are.

I wrote an ebook on curing my dog's bone cancer. It's not really that hard to do.

When I went to my sister's she had a dog dying of bone cancer - I told her I could cure it but she had to give him to me because we'd bond real strong and it would hurt him when I left (he was a rescue she kept for company for the family dog - cared for but not loved. I loved him). She thought I was batshyte, but humored me since he was dying anyway. The first day he stood square on all fours and ran to the door, she almost crapped herself. A year later - she was calling me. She had breast cancer. She's completely healthy now. Cancer is one of the biggest and most tragic scams perpetrated on human beings for the benefit of corporations.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I wrote an ebook on curing my dog's bone cancer. It's not really that hard to do.

When I went to my sister's she had a dog dying of bone cancer - I told her I could cure it but she had to give him to me because we'd bond real strong and it would hurt him when I left (he was a rescue she kept for company for the family dog - cared for but not loved. I loved him). She thought I was batshyte, but humored me since he was dying anyway. The first day he stood square on all fours and ran to the door, she almost crapped herself. A year later - she was calling me. She had breast cancer. She's completely healthy now. Cancer is one of the biggest and most tragic scams perpetrated on human beings for the benefit of corporations.

Whats the cure then?

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

[DELETED]

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

This question needs to be refreshed as often as it takes. It's an important question.

Sal claimed she knew, I'm really curious what it is.

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BigFrank Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Sal claimed she knew, I'm really curious what it is.

I would think that if anyone actually 'knew,' they'd be world renowned. Think about it.

I'm just sayin . . . . . . .

Cheers. - Frank
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- butters 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BigFrank
  
  I would think that if anyone actually 'knew,' they'd be world renowned. Think about it.
  
  I'm just sayin . . . . . . .
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  I know this but if someone makes this claim, especially after people's first hand experiences, I think it merits an explanation.
  
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  BigFrank Banned 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by butters
  
  I know this but if someone makes this claim, especially after people's first hand experiences, I think it merits an explanation.
  
  We've been through all of this before. Claims are easy to make, but if you only deal with 'verifiable' claims you will save yourself a tremendous amount of time and energy.
  
  Additionally, while many will claim to possess 'first-hand experience' in an attempt to validate their claim, realize that you are dealing with personal opinion that can in no way be proven. When someone says, "I've witnessed it with my own eyes' they are still unable to prove that what they witnessed can be directly attributed to what they believe transpired due to one or more actions.
  
  You will be ridiculed for not accepting their belief as fact, but that's just the way things play out. Nothing you can ever do about that.
  
  That's all I'll say on the matter. I'll just allow things to take their usual course and then you can decide for yourself if you are dealing with scientific facts or personal beliefs and which of the two holds more sway for you.
  
  I've been down this road before and the view ain't pretty. :-)
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
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  butters 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BigFrank
  
  I've been down this road before and the view ain't pretty. :-)
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  Its scary how accurate that post actually is
  
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  BigFrank Banned 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by butters
  
  Its scary how accurate that post actually is
  
  You ain't seen nuthin', yet. This I can promise you.
  
  That said, I hope that by now most have learned to not challenge my incredibly superior intellect and unyielding demand for proof of all statements and claims.
  
  Sayin' sumptin' just doesn't make it necessarily so. :-)
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  Thanks
  
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

[DELETED]

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Yup. And it's an important question.

Stop stirrin' up trouble. I loathe competition.

Cheers. - Frank

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

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Dan Riffle

10 years ago

How's that for "Great minds think alike," Claude?

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butters 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

You know this won't end well. Additionally, what purpose does it serve?

This needs to be the off topics tag line! "This won't end well" !
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

[DELETED]

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Dan Riffle

10 years ago

Nothing to see here. Move along.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Butters you may also want to check out Dr. Burzynski. Burzynski Clinic | Advanced Alternative Cancer Treatment | Houston, Texas
He's done a lot of research and work in the cancer field and uses Antineoplastons primarily (if I remember right) for brain cancer in children with some impressive results.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Butters you may also want to check out Dr. Burzynski. Burzynski Clinic | Advanced Alternative Cancer Treatment | Houston, Texas
He's done a lot of research and work in the cancer field and uses Antineoplastons primarily (if I remember right) for brain cancer in children with some impressive results.

Looked into it, I found 10 review articles of his work by others saying he lacks in methodology, actual evidence and that he fudges data.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Looked into it, I found 10 review articles of his work by others saying he lacks in methodology, actual evidence and that he fudges data.

He's had his battles over this. He ran into problems with the FDA and one pharmaceutical company. I don't remember the details but it naturally enough had something to do with money. In a nut shell since then the FDA and the industry has done everything they can to discredit him and shut him done. Both the FDA and Texas state medical board have tried to shut him down. They both lost their cases when it was determine his treatments met patient standards and worked.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

He's had his battles over this. He ran into problems with the FDA and one pharmaceutical company. I don't remember the details but it naturally enough had something to do with money. In a nut shell since then the FDA and the industry has done everything they can to discredit him and shut him done. Both the FDA and Texas state medical board have tried to shut him down. They both lost their cases when it was determine his treatments met patient standards and worked.

These reviews are done by independent scientists calling into question the validity of the methodology of the study. This is nothing to do with big pharma or the FDA, these are scientists, possibly university lecturers or researchers which have called into question the validity of his work. Let me put it like this... If Antineoplastons worked as you say then there would be a WEALTH of articles on the subject. Him and his institute are the soul publishers of all case studies on this subject. That alone brings into question, why is no one around the world, forget america, we are talking globally, replicating his results? Something seems wrong here, don't get me wrong, I plan to talk about this in my essay, I'll get back to you with my finding but these are my initial observations.

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Maybe but I don't believe so one bit. Here is why, maybe back in the days when technology wasn't where it is, I could agree but now, not so much. Cancer is a world wide disease, there are 100's of charities researching various forms of cancers right now, there are studies being carried out by universities and medschools. There are individual studies being carried out, there are studies being carried out by the crazy people. All of these are accessible in peer reviewed journals. Everyone has access to their data and methodology, it is in essence, impossible to bury data now days because of the internet. Fine you could argue that big pharma companies are the only people with the means to bring a drug to market but i don't think thats true. A lot of clinical studies are carried out weekly by individuals, hospitals, schools etc... If the science behind the studies was correct, then it would be published for all to see. Basically what I am getting out to sum it up, with the internet becoming what it is, hiding data is becoming massively harder.

Glad someone else put the Canadian nurse one up. She had a very high success rate, and was thrown in prison every 5 years for no good reason, other than the FDA didn't like it!

This is the usual red tape BS, or dog chasing its tail science.

If an individual has a very high success rate, and you don't have to mortgage your house or suffer, to see her or him, then that is the best option!

I know someone who works near me, who had Skin Cancer on her legs, but she went to a local Chinese Doctor instead of the usual and was completely cured of it!

No surgery, no being bombarded by harmful rays, no painful chemo and no, (sell your house, for a cure crap)!

As for the above quote, exactly is the only word l can come up with! Cancer is a BILLION dollar a year business, they have researched it for 100 years and poured a trillion dollars into it!

Don't you think by now they would at least know what it is!!!!!

NO, as Sal has said, doctors will only find a cure if it is gene based, (so an individual can't do it themselves) and it costs ridiculous sums of cash!

That is true for anything in this world, if it is quick, cheap and easy then it is suppressed or buried. But if it makes huge Corp, profits regardless of the suffering it causes then it is embraced!

I would be interested to know if Cancer itself kills or the treatment through complications is the part that kills?

From what l read about Cancer last century, the growth by itself isn't the killer!

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butters 10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

From what l read about Cancer last century, the growth by itself isn't the killer!

I'm gonna leave you to your point of view

Thought I would clarify this though...

Cancer is uncontrollable cellular growth which will then move to other areas of the body (metastasises). The uncontrollable growth caused by the "cancer" is the reason why cancer is so deadly and hard to combat.
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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

These reviews are done by independent scientists calling into question the validity of the methodology of the study. This is nothing to do with big pharma or the FDA, these are scientists, possibly university lecturers or researchers which have called into question the validity of his work. Let me put it like this... If Antineoplastons worked as you say then there would be a WEALTH of articles on the subject. Him and his institute are the soul publishers of all case studies on this subject. That alone brings into question, why is no one around the world, forget america, we are talking globally, replicating his results? Something seems wrong here, don't get me wrong, I plan to talk about this in my essay, I'll get back to you with my finding but these are my initial observations.

Actually Butters, he says they work. I'm just passing it on because you said you where looking for alternitive cancer treatments for you paper

Form dealing with the gmo issue I always tend to follow the money when it comes to scientists. Who supplies their funding?
I know one issue this doctor ran into was when he gave the FDA his research and technique including doses, the scientists they used where given incorrect information by the FDA. Basically they where set up to fail to discredit him.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

These reviews are done by independent scientists calling into question the validity of the methodology of the study. This is nothing to do with big pharma or the FDA, these are scientists, possibly university lecturers or researchers which have called into question the validity of his work. Let me put it like this... If Antineoplastons worked as you say then there would be a WEALTH of articles on the subject. Him and his institute are the soul publishers of all case studies on this subject. That alone brings into question, why is no one around the world, forget america, we are talking globally, replicating his results? Something seems wrong here, don't get me wrong, I plan to talk about this in my essay, I'll get back to you with my finding but these are my initial observations.

He stated one of the problems himself. The patients that came in that already had been given chemo had a lot less chance of surviving than the patients he got to that weren't damaged by chemo first.

The judge that leveled the final verdict told the court that he was not going to prosecute a man just for interfering with a corporation's profits. Something to think long and hard about.

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Karen Blundell

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Butters you may also want to check out Dr. Burzynski. Burzynski Clinic | Advanced Alternative Cancer Treatment | Houston, Texas
He's done a lot of research and work in the cancer field and uses Antineoplastons primarily (if I remember right) for brain cancer in children with some impressive results.

Dr. Burzynski's work fascinates me and I also have looked into the work of Dr. Simoncini as well:
Candida International: Is Cancer Caused by the Candida Fungus?

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

Candida International: Is Cancer Caused by the Candida Fungus?

Please allow me to answer that for you. No!

Cheers. - Frank

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Karen Blundell

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Please allow me to answer that for you. No!

Cheers. - Frank

ok whatever Dr. Frank

I invite you to watch the documentary:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/cancer-forbidden-cures/

very much an eye-opener unless of course you refuse to acknowledge any alternative cancer treatments as viable despite verifiable proof

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

ok whatever Dr. Frank

I invite you to watch the documentary:
Cancer: The Forbidden Cures (2010) - Top Documentary Films

very much an eye-opener unless of course you refuse to acknowledge any alternative cancer treatments as viable despite verifiable proof

I do refuse to watch videos that don't contain any verifiable proof. Time is a very precious comodity. It should never be wasted on junk science.

That said, I do appreciate that referring to me as 'Dr. Frank" is an indication that you acknowledge that I have as much knowledge on the subject as the hack in the video. :-)

When will you folks learn that when a true cure for cancer is discovered that the entire world will know about it, regardless of how many people are paid-off to keep their mouths shut or killed to maintain the secret so big Pahrma can continue to reap its profits?

Cheers. - Frank

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Shane; I know you wouldn't say that, unless you had given it serious thought. Could you tell us where you learned this world changing information?

Phew, tried to find it online, and l did read about it in the Herald Sun, so there was a study done somewhere! But, that was the headline!

Originally Posted by butters

No it hasn't... Let me tell you what the research on yoga has recently shown... Yoga has been possibly linked to have a positive role on anxiety, vitality, improvements in depression and fatigue. Now, i say possibly here because the trials fell short in a few areas, these are them area: It wasn't double blinded and randomised; physicians which recommended yoga were predominately female physicians and preform yoga themselves; Most trials done are preformed on breast cancer patients so the spectrum of cancers isn't covered; most trials (90%) contained female ONLY participants meaning that the male species was not considered. That is the problem with trials looking at them symptoms above...

Now lets look at yoga as a way of boosting the immune system. The major problem here is, all case studies are done in vitro and not in vivo. What does this mean... This means that scientists are trying to replicate the immune response in the lab compared to how it actually happens in the body. Anyone who does lab work will tell you that this is extremely complicated and more then likely isn't going to be accurate. So theres the first major pitfall for yoga in terms of boosting the immune system. Secondly, the sample size of all patients involved is always very small, there is no broad spectrum of randomised sampling so theres another pitfull. Then there is the placebo effect, its a well documented theory and it may hold true in this case.

Now lets look at yoga and chemotherapy, well I couldn't even find a journal article which recommend replacing chemo with yoga. Heck, I found a small survey of oncologists that 28/29 disagreed with the fact that yoga has any impact on the immune system...

So please don't come up with claims that it is effective at chemo, it isn't... Doctors don't recommend it as an alternative to chemo for one reason, the reason is, it isn't an alternative.

(Edit: please link me to the yoga and chemo study, it would actually look good in my essay )

Sounds like you are sold on Doctors, glad this woman isn't saved herself a lot of pain and cost!

I've refused chemo for breast cancer because the gain isn't worth the pain: After a double mastectomy, one woman defends a hugely controversial choice | Daily Mail Online

Hope you don't have any serious health issues in the future, since you are sold on the chop, and Drug path!

And l did read the Cancer myth one, reasonably good advise, but saying that anything online that hasn't been thoroughly researched should be ignored is pretty naive.

Researched yes, but not dismissed!

As for Cancer being present in Egypt, that is true, but it was very rare. I know most people didn't live past 35, but virtually no Cancer in the population, for 35 years of their life, still noteworthy!

They should add to the myths, that Chemo is ineffective in some cases, and tends to make the person sicker before it helps them?

I won't mention the individuals that ignored the Doctors, cured themselves and went on to lead healthy lives, after all a New, shiny BMW in a Doctors driveway is more important than someones quality of life, when dealing with illness!!!

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/f...ysicalactivity

I have read it is up to 40+% for most Cancers!

Physical activity is a critical component of energy balance, the term researchers use to describe how weight, diet, and physical activity influence health.
There is strong evidence that physical activity is associated with reduced risk of cancers of the colon and breast.
Several studies have also reported links between physical activity and reduced risk of endometrial (lining of the uterus), lung, and prostate cancers.
Current National Cancer Institute-funded studies are exploring the role of physical activity in cancer survivorship and quality of life, cancer risk, and the needs of populations at increased risk.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

Sounds like you are sold on Doctors, glad this woman isn't saved herself a lot of pain and cost!

I've refused chemo for breast cancer because the gain isn't worth the pain: After a double mastectomy, one woman defends a hugely controversial choice | Daily Mail Online

Hope you don't have any serious health issues in the future, since you are sold on the chop, and Drug path!

All from the reliable source of the Daily Mail which took its articles information from a tumblr =/

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tagiscom 10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

All from the reliable source of the Daily Mail which took its articles information from a tumblr =/

The last link was from the National Cancer Institute!

Have a nice day!
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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

Phew, tried to find it online, and l did read about it in the Herald Sun, so there was a study done somewhere! But, that was the headline!

Sounds like you are sold on Doctors, glad this woman isn't saved herself a lot of pain and cost!

I've refused chemo for breast cancer because the gain isn't worth the pain: After a double mastectomy, one woman defends a hugely controversial choice | Daily Mail Online

Hope you don't have any serious health issues in the future, since you are sold on the chop, and Drug path!

And l did read the Cancer myth one, reasonably good advise, but saying that anything online that hasn't been thoroughly researched should be ignored is pretty naive.

Researched yes, but not dismissed!

As for Cancer being present in Egypt, that is true, but it was very rare. I know most people didn't live past 35, but virtually no Cancer in the population, for 35 years of their life, still noteworthy!

They should add to the myths, that Chemo is ineffective in some cases, and tends to make the person sicker before it helps them?

I won't mention the individuals that ignored the Doctors, cured themselves and went on to lead healthy lives, after all a New, shiny BMW in a Doctors driveway is more important than someones quality of life, when dealing with illness!!!

Physical Activity and Cancer - National Cancer Institute

I have read it is up to 40+% for most Cancers!

Your source does suck -- however, they are right.

If you are eating the right essentials that cut off blood flow to tumors and starving the cancer of energy, it can't take the strain of exercise. I used to walk poor little Ricky til his little legs barely would hold him. What surprised me is that I expected the tumor to die and just shrivel up in a dead lump that would always be there but the whole thing absorbed and completely disappeared and I didn't expect that one at all. I had carcinogenic mole on my leg and could feel the root under it. I killed the root and it's gone, so it's not going anywhere, but the top mole-like layer is still there. It's dead but it's not sloughing or absorbing, the root just is no longer there.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Your source does suck -- however, they are right.

If you are eating the right essentials that cut off blood flow to tumors and starving the cancer of energy, it can't take the strain of exercise. I used to walk poor little Ricky til his little legs barely would hold him. What surprised me is that I expected the tumor to die and just shrivel up in a dead lump that would always be there but the whole thing absorbed and completely disappeared and I didn't expect that one at all. I had carcinogenic mole on my leg and I killed the root so it's not going anywhere, but the top mole-like layer is still there. It's dead but it's not sloughing or absorbing, the root just is no longer there.

What could possibly go wrong with cutting blood flow to organs, starving your body of energy and preforming exercise. Honestly, I can't see nothing medically wrong with that what so ever.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Here's some more information on cannabis and cancer for you.
Cannabis and Cannabinoids (PDQ®) - National Cancer Institute

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Here's some more information on cannabis and cancer for you.
Cannabis and Cannabinoids (PDQ®) - National Cancer Institute

Unfortunately for me, Cannabis is used in conventional medicine as something to deal with pain. I would mind getting into that, its actually quite interesting

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Unfortunately for me, Cannabis is used in conventional medicine as something to deal with pain. I would mind getting into that, its actually quite interesting

It's first "approved" use was basically as an anti-inflammatory. That's why it will work on some types of pain and not others.
Cannabis is a truly amazing plant. Every day new uses are being found for it in many different fields from medical to industrial.
This is an interesting article on medical cannabis, references are listed at the bottom.

Cancer-fighting Cannabinoids

Recent scientific advances in the study of cannabinoid receptors and endocannabinoids have produced exciting new leads in the search for anti-cancer treatments. In the past decade, scores of studies, both in vivo and in vitro, have demonstrated that various cannabinoids have a significant effect fighting cancer cells. To date, studies have shown that cannabinoids arrest many kinds of cancer growths through promotion of apoptosis (programmed cell death) in tumors and by arresting angiogenesis (increased blood vessel production). Cannabinoids have also been shown to halt the proliferation or spread of cancer cells in a wide variety of cancer types. Unlike conventional chemotherapy treatments that work by creating a toxic environment in the body that frequently compromises overall health, cannabinoids have been shown to selectively target tumor cells.
Cannabinoids and Tumor Reduction

The direct anti-tumor and anti-proliferation activity of cannabinoids, specifically CB1 and CB2 agonists, has now been demonstrated in dozens of studies across a range of cancer types, including brain (gliomas), breast, liver, leukemic, melanoma, phaeochromocytoma, cervical, pituitary, prostate and bowel.24-40 The anti-tumor activity has led in laboratory animals and in-vitro human tissues to regression of tumors, reductions in vascularisation (blood supply) and metastases (secondary tumors), as well as the direct destruction of cancer cells (apoptosis).41-45 A 2009 review of recent studies on the role of cannabinoids and cannabinoid receptors in the treatment of breast cancer notes that research on the complex interactions of endogenous cannabinoids and receptors is leading to greater scientific understanding of the basic mechanisms by which cancers develop.46
Cannabinoids have been shown to inhibit tumor growth in laboratory animals in multiple studies.47-52 In one study, injections of synthetic THC eradicated malignant brain tumors in one-third of treated rats, and prolonged life in another third by as long as six weeks.53 Other research on pituitary cancers suggests that cannabinoids may be the key to regulating human pituitary hormone secretion.54-57
Research published in 2009 found that the non-psychoactive cannabinoid cannabidiol (CBD) inhibits the invasion of both human cervical cancer and human lung cancer cells. By manipulating cannabidiol's up-regulation of a tissue inhibitor, researchers may have revealed the mechanism of CBD's tumor-fighting effect. A further in vivo study demonstrated "a significant inhibition" of lung cancer metastasis in mice treated with CBD.58 The mechanism of the anti-cancer activity of CBD and other cannabinoids has also been repeatedly demonstrated with breast cancers.59-63
Scientists have also demonstrated the anti-tumor effects of the cannabinoid THC on cholangiocarcinoma cells, an often-fatal type of cancer that attacks the liver's bile ducts. A 2009 study found that "THC inhibited cell proliferation, migration and invasion, and induced cell apoptosis." At low levels, THC reduced the migration and invasion of cancer cells, while at high concentrations, THC triggered cell-death in tumors. In short, THC reduced the activity and number of cancer cells. 64 This dose-dependent action of cannabinoids on tumors has also been demonstrated in animal studies. Medical Cannabis Research - Americans for Safe Access

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

It's first "approved" use was basically as an anti-inflammatory. That's why it will work on some types of pain and not others.
Cannabis is a truly amazing plant. Every day new uses are being found for it in many different fields from medical to industrial.

It's actually an up and coming field but is being held back by social mis-conceptions of the drug. I can't remember the protein but there is only one protein in canabis which responsible for its high. Other then that, I can see that in the future, with refinement etc... it will be a good source for a drug.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

It's actually an up and coming field but is being held back by social mis-conceptions of the drug. I can't remember the protein but there is only one protein in canabis which responsible for its high. Other then that, I can see that in the future, with refinement etc... it will be a good source for a drug.

Social misconceptions and government suppression.
Actually it's a Cannabinoid that is responsible for the high, THC. What I think is even more interesting is it's been discovered that we have receptors in our brains for cannabinoids and our bodies also produces them. In fact scientists have discovered a new system in our brains and named it the endocannabinoid (EC) system after the cannabis plant.
Doctors in Israel have already developed a strain that contains no significant amount of THC. Breeders in the states where medical cannabis is legal are doing some incredible work in tailoring strains for specific diseases or health issues. They have their strains (or F1 hybrids) analyzed in labs for different cannabinoid content and percentages.
Another relatively new way of using cannabis as a medicine is in juicing the fresh plant. While THC is on a living or green plant it is in an acid form called THCA which doesn't get you high.
There's not a lot of research on this yet (that I know of) but here's an interesting article on it.
Is Juicing Raw Cannabis the Miracle Health Cure That Some of Its Proponents Believe It to Be? | Alternet
It works in a different way from smoking as it doesn't go to the brain receptors.

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MissTerraK

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Unfortunately for me, Cannabis is used in conventional medicine as something to deal with pain. I would mind getting into that, its actually quite interesting

The leaves and buds of the cannabis plant have been used in herbal remedies for centuries and doctors do promote THC and marijuana to relieve pain, but to control nausea and vomiting, and stimulate appetite in people with cancer today as well.

Certain cannabinoid drugs have been approved by the US FDA to relieve nausea and vomiting and increase appetite in people with cancer.

They are chemically pure drugs based on marijuana compounds that have been approved in the US for medical use. The cannabinoid THC has been available by prescription as dronabinol in pill form since 1985. This drug is approved to treat nausea and vomiting caused by cancer chemotherapy. A second drug, nabilone, is a synthetic cannabinoid that acts much like THC. It is also a prescription drug, and is approved to treat nausea and vomiting caused by cancer chemotherapy when other drugs have not worked.

When I worked for an oncologist, I gave so many patients these pills that I seriously lost count.

How can you not know this if you are studying cancer?

Terra

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

How can you not know this if you are studying cancer?

Terra

I'm not studying cancer specifically, this happens to be the topic of my current assignment. I am studying to be a pathologist, got 3 months left, then I will specialise on the job. As of right now my course focuses heavily on diagnostics, molecular pathways, genetics, immuniology and physiology. I have just recently taken an interest in cancer, it's fascinating to me so this is an area I would like to specialise into in the future.

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MissTerraK

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

I'm not studying cancer specifically, this happens to be the topic of my current assignment. I am studying to be a pathologist, got 3 months left, then I will specialise on the job. As of right now my course focuses heavily on diagnostics, molecular pathways, genetics, immuniology and physiology. I have just recently taken an interest in cancer, it's fascinating to me so this is an area I would like to specialise into in the future.

Ahh, I see.

Well, you go! I'm proud of you!

Terra

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

I'm not studying cancer specifically, this happens to be the topic of my current assignment. I am studying to be a pathologist, got 3 months left, then I will specialise on the job. As of right now my course focuses heavily on diagnostics, molecular pathways, genetics, immuniology and physiology. I have just recently taken an interest in cancer, it's fascinating to me so this is an area I would like to specialise into in the future.

I studied plant pathology in college, not as a major but as an elective. I wasn't going for any type of degree but just for the knowledge. That and soil science where two of my favorite subjects.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I studied plant pathology in college, not as a major but as an elective. I wasn't going for any type of degree but just for the knowledge. That and soil science where two of my favorite subjects.

I realised quickly in my life, do what you love and fascinates you, make sure it's challenging and never boring. I am just excited for the future, it's always going to be something new to learn and things to research

, can't wait!

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

I realised quickly in my life, do what you love and fascinates you, make sure it's challenging and never boring.

Same here. I've always been addicted to learning. It was something my father instilled in me at a very early age.

I am just excited for the future, it's always going to be something new to learn and things to research

, can't wait!

I hear that. What's got me particularly excited is the new research that's coming out on soils. 2015 is the international year of soils. Soil scientist's all over the world are mapping the soils in their regions and doing more research on carbon sequestration and how it can be improved. There's more they are doing, it's going to be an exciting year for me

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Same here. I've always been addicted to learning. It was something my father instilled in me at a very early age.
I hear that. What's got me particularly excited is the new research that's coming out on soils. 2015 is the international year of soils. Soil scientist's all over the world are mapping the soils in their regions and doing more research on carbon sequestration and how it can be improved. There's more they are doing, it's going to be an exciting year for me

I wish I'd kept a link for ya. It's a scientist - can't remember which discipline but I'm thinking a botanist or geologist - he was showing how grazers can actually help soil and ecosystems when they are allowed to migrate as they would do naturally instead of being kept in confined areas where they can actually be damaging. He's a proponent of natural grazing of cattle as one method of restoring soil and ecosystems. It was a pretty interesting read. If I can find it again, I'll post it for ya.

Edit: that wasn't hard. Not sure this was the original, but it's the same info: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0214184521.htm

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Karen Blundell

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I wish I'd kept a link for ya. It's a scientist - can't remember which discipline but I'm thinking a botanist or geologist - he was showing how grazers can actually help soil and ecosystems when they are allowed to migrate as they would do naturally instead of being kept in confined areas where they can actually be damaging. He's a proponent of natural grazing of cattle as one method of restoring soil and ecosystems. It was a pretty interesting read. If I can find it again, I'll post it for ya.

Edit: that wasn't hard. Not sure this was the original, but it's the same info: Can cattle grazing management technique help capture and store carbon in soil? -- ScienceDaily

another method of restoring soil I have looked into is planting hemp - it seems to me that hemp is a wonder crop that would solve a lot of our problems right now
but not just hemp can be used but other plants too.
Here's an interesting article about the process of phytoremediation (using plants to clean soil) that they tested in Chernobyl:

http://mhhe.com/biosci/pae/botany/bo...rticle_10.html

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Think about what you just said.

So, if people disagree with you, the thread should be shut down?

Have you ever read, "Some people here believe that Yoga is as good as chemo-therapy. I keep reading insane comments, just like this. These people are not using logic....so I think the thread should be shut down"?

No.

Everyone is entitled to posting their opinion. You too. And we are also entitled to find someone's opinion ridiculous. Some opinions are not reasonable. that's a fact.

You don't like someone's post? Show them where they are wrong. Convince them.

That's the right response. Asking the Mods to shut it down, because your feelings are hurt? Because people don't agree with you? That's silly. You can leave, but you can't tell everyone to go home.

That,s true, the editor in the newspaper and his source material was obviously BS????

Eventhough it is a quality newspaper, based on research findings, and l have seen no retractions!

The only stupid thing was posting this before researching it first, but l did read that, and since exercise drastically reduces your changes of Cancer across the board, it is headed in the right direction.

I would say, weak statement,..but dumb, l will let everyone here decide on that one!

Originally Posted by butters

I'm not studying cancer specifically, this happens to be the topic of my current assignment. I am studying to be a pathologist, got 3 months left, then I will specialise on the job. As of right now my course focuses heavily on diagnostics, molecular pathways, genetics, immuniology and physiology. I have just recently taken an interest in cancer, it's fascinating to me so this is an area I would like to specialise into in the future.

Yes, you will be ideal for the job!

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

another method of restoring soil I have looked into is planting hemp - it seems to me that hemp is a wonder crop that would solve a lot of our problems right now
but not just hemp can be used but other plants too.
Here's an interesting article about the process of phytoremediation (using plants to clean soil) that they tested in Chernobyl:

http://mhhe.com/biosci/pae/botany/bo...rticle_10.html

There is a lot of interest in Fungi for cleaning soils also. The more tools we have to clean and restore sick, contaminated soils the better.

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Karen Blundell

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

There is a lot of interest in Fungi for cleaning soils also. The more tools we have to clean and restore sick, contaminated soils the better.

absolutely - from what I have been reading the process of cleaning soils can happen quickly depending on what is used.
All of this information gives me a lot of hope -

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

absolutely - from what I have been reading the process of cleaning soils can happen quickly depending on what is used.
All of this information gives me a lot of hope -

They can be cleaned pretty quick now. Bringing them back to life is another story. That can take up to 7 years.

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ThomM

10 years ago

FAO -*News Article:*Agriculture must change

In his remarks, the FAO Director-General underscored the important role played by healthy soils. "Soils host at least one quarter of the world's biodiversity and are key in the carbon cycle. They help us to mitigate and adapt to climate change," he said.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I wish I'd kept a link for ya. It's a scientist - can't remember which discipline but I'm thinking a botanist or geologist - he was showing how grazers can actually help soil and ecosystems when they are allowed to migrate as they would do naturally instead of being kept in confined areas where they can actually be damaging. He's a proponent of natural grazing of cattle as one method of restoring soil and ecosystems. It was a pretty interesting read. If I can find it again, I'll post it for ya.

Edit: that wasn't hard. Not sure this was the original, but it's the same info: Can cattle grazing management technique help capture and store carbon in soil? -- ScienceDaily

I knew about that. The dairy farms use to do something similar around here with pasture rotations. Another thing some did was having pastures large enough that the cows could roam and graze. Something some people do with small goat or sheep herds is use a portable fence. They divide their pastures into quarters and rotate the fence and herds from quarter to quarter.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

What could possibly go wrong with cutting blood flow to organs, starving your body of energy and preforming exercise. Honestly, I can't see nothing medically wrong with that what so ever.

LOL - you don't cut blood flow to organs. You cut a tumor's ability to build new veins. A lot of apoptotic elements do that. You also cut nutrients to cancer cells - not normal cells, and that takes care of the crap floating around that isn't in tumor form.

Wondering how you plan on writing a report on anti-cancer elements if you don't know much about the subject.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

LOL - you don't cut blood flow to organs. You cut a tumor's ability to build new veins. A lot of apoptotic elements do that. You also cut nutrients to cancer cells - not normal cells, and that takes care of the crap floating around that isn't in tumor form.

Wondering how you plan on writing a report on anti-cancer elements if you don't know much about the subject.

Errr, you know what apoptosis is right... You do realise that it is the angiogenesis/metastasis pathway which deals with the formation of blood vessels so tumours can spread? Seriously? I really thought you would of had the basics of cancer down at least.

Let me explain this to you, apoptosis is essentially programmed cell death, it is the cell telling itself to kill itself because something is wrong with it. What happens is, essentially the cell with have a mutation, this could be a break point mutation, deletion, insertion, what ever mutation it is, that will inhibit that cell from being able to preform apoptosis. Along with that, mutations in proteins upstream from that can also cause a break essentially in the molecular signalling cascade which results in impaired appoptosis. This is one of the key problems with cancers not killing themselves, hence, uncontrollable cellular growth. Mostly these actions are preformed via 3 pathways, PI3K, JNK and ERK. JNK is responsible for e-cadherins which essentially binds the uncontrollable cells together. The other pathways work with cellular proliferation and the basic kinase cascade which results in apoptosis and proliferation.

Now, metastasis are formed via the wnt pathway and partially the JNK pathway (Separate proteins are used in the pathway to apoptosis). Since your argument was about the formation of blood vessels, you will be glad to know that the JNK pathway plays 0 role in angiogenesis (formation of blood vessels). Essentially the Wnt pathways is a regulator of gene expression, thus up-regulation of gene expression leads to transformation, metastasis and angiogenesis. Another key component which is completely separate to is b-canterin, this is influenced by up and down regulation of gene expression. Essentially this results in b-catenin interacts with other proteins such as interleukin (Allows for angiogenesis), RAS family members and E-cadherin (Stable adhesions for metastasis to form).

Please do not say that I don't understand the basics of cancer when you have clearly mistaken program cell death with angiogenesis. Also please understand that if you can not grasp this basic concept of what I wrote your in no position to offer medical advice. Also note if you can grasp it, your in no position to offer medical advice anyway... Do not sit there and claim you know about cancer when all of your results are based off half ass studies which you cherry picked data for. Do some real research, actually understand the disease FULLY at a molecular, genetic, epigenetic level before you even bother writing a cure...

Edit: Just to add, how do you propose you cut the blood vessels to cancerous cells when the form in cells within organs, lets take hepatocellular carcinoma as an example? I'd be interested how you can stop hepatocellular carcinoma from occurring, this will help a lot of Hep C suffers around the world.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Whats the cure then?

Buy the book. I'm not typing that all out just for a WF discussion when I have a book that tells the whole story.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Buy the book. I'm not typing that all out just for a WF discussion when I have a book that tells the whole story.

I'm not asking for the book, just the general approach, for example: diet, a cup of tea from some Chinese thing, exercise and so on.

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

I'm gonna leave you to your point of view

Thought I would clarify this though...

Cancer is uncontrollable cellular growth which will then move to other areas of the body (metastasises). The uncontrollable growth caused by the "cancer" is the reason why cancer is so deadly and hard to combat.

I just did some research, and let's just say the situation is far worse than l thought!

You better not mess with their profits either. Anyone that comes forward with a natural cure for a major disease is brutally repressed.
You see, there is a whole lot of money at stake. Vitamins and herbs cannot be patented. If natural cures are allowed to become well known, the pharmaceutical companies could lose billions of dollars in profits.

Billions Spent On A Cure For Cancer And Yet Cancer Rates Continue To Explode?

My Mother went through this, we listened to the nurse and got it wrong with the Cancer drugs. She was almost crippled by the half a dozen drugs we were only supposed to use in an emergency, and l had to get her down to the hospital.

We will only find a cure for this, when a sell your soul drug is developed, bottom line!

You might end up on the street with nothing, but at least you will probably be cured, at least for the moment!

Least it explains why doctors say, that diet doesn't matter if you have it! What they are saying is, l am concerned about my high paying job, and paying off my mansion and new BMW, so l will read out the Phar, script, than say something intelligent!

Cancer Is a Man-Made Disease, Controversial Study Claims

Not conclusive, but compelling!

But Doctors saying that diet plays no part, is putting up a pretty big warning bell, that they are Phar, puppets, and further research needs to be done by the individual before trusting the Doctors completely!

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ThomM

10 years ago

Shane, let me tell you a story about a friend who recently found out he had cancer.
It showed up in the upper corner of his left lung, it was small about the size of a quarter.
His doctor told him a simple operation would remove it and since it was a type of cancer that doesn't spread he would be good to go, so he had the operation.
After the successful surgery the doctor said they got it all but he should now get chemo because it may come back in 5 years.
His thoughts where , why don't I just get a check-up once a year.
is doctor insisted he get the chemo (for the cancer he no longer had) and his family bought into the scare. So he got the chemo. After each treatment he would feel a little worse. After his last treatment he was bed ridden for 3 days not only in pain, but feeling like he was going to die. After his last treatment his doctor told him he would have to come in for a check-up once a year because the cancer may come back.
So the question is why did they give him chemo for a cancer that wasn't there? Why after the treatments did they tell him it still might come back, when the treatments where suppose to prevent that?

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Shane, let me tell you a story about a friend who recently found out he had cancer.
It showed up in the upper corner of his left lung, it was small about the size of a quarter.
His doctor told him a simple operation would remove it and since it was a type of cancer that doesn't spread he would be good to go, so he had the operation.
After the successful surgery the doctor said they got it all but he should now get chemo because it may come back in 5 years.
His thoughts where , why don't I just get a check-up once a year.
is doctor insisted he get the chemo (for the cancer he no longer had) and his family bought into the scare. So he got the chemo. After each treatment he would feel a little worse. After his last treatment he was bed ridden for 3 days not only in pain, but feeling like he was going to die. After his last treatment his doctor told him he would have to come in for a check-up once a year because the cancer may come back.
So the question is why did they give him chemo for a cancer that wasn't there? Why after the treatments did they tell him it still might come back, when the treatments where suppose to prevent that?

Yes, exactly!

I was in the hospital waiting for my Mother, and overheard two nurses discussing whether someone who had Cancer should have, l think that it was gene therapy or just Chemo, they opted for Chemo, since more money could be syph,...ahem gained, eventhough they are already drowning in money or profits!

I suppose the Phar, company was offering a holiday to Jamaica for the most slushy-cashed up hospital?

No doubt they wouldn't mention exercise either, eventhough it can cut getting Cancer by almost 50% across the board!

It has been recently shown that Yoga or Pilates regularly done, is just as effective as Chemo. But l know which one the Doctors would mention, after all they have their BMW to pay off and career to think of!!!

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Claude Whitacre 10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

It has been recently shown that Yoga or Pilates regularly done, is just as effective as Chemo. ]

Shane; I know you wouldn't say that, unless you had given it serious thought. Could you tell us where you learned this world changing information?
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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

It has been recently shown that Yoga or Pilates regularly done, is just as effective as Chemo. But l know which one the Doctors would mention, after all they have their BMW to pay off and career to think of!!!

No it hasn't... Let me tell you what the research on yoga has recently shown... Yoga has been possibly linked to have a positive role on anxiety, vitality, improvements in depression and fatigue. Now, i say possibly here because the trials fell short in a few areas, these are them area: It wasn't double blinded and randomised; physicians which recommended yoga were predominately female physicians and preform yoga themselves; Most trials done are preformed on breast cancer patients so the spectrum of cancers isn't covered; most trials (90%) contained female ONLY participants meaning that the male species was not considered. That is the problem with trials looking at them symptoms above...

Now lets look at yoga as a way of boosting the immune system. The major problem here is, all case studies are done in vitro and not in vivo. What does this mean... This means that scientists are trying to replicate the immune response in the lab compared to how it actually happens in the body. Anyone who does lab work will tell you that this is extremely complicated and more then likely isn't going to be accurate. So theres the first major pitfall for yoga in terms of boosting the immune system. Secondly, the sample size of all patients involved is always very small, there is no broad spectrum of randomised sampling so theres another pitfull. Then there is the placebo effect, its a well documented theory and it may hold true in this case.

Now lets look at yoga and chemotherapy, well I couldn't even find a journal article which recommend replacing chemo with yoga. Heck, I found a small survey of oncologists that 28/29 disagreed with the fact that yoga has any impact on the immune system...

So please don't come up with claims that it is effective at chemo, it isn't... Doctors don't recommend it as an alternative to chemo for one reason, the reason is, it isn't an alternative.

(Edit: please link me to the yoga and chemo study, it would actually look good in my essay

)

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

I'm not asking for the book, just the general approach, for example: diet, a cup of tea from some Chinese thing, exercise and so on.

Don't want the book that tells exactly - just want me to tell it for free.........which is why I wrote a book. After I killed Ricky's cancer I was deluged with people who wanted a 40 page answer, typed, doublespaced, and free. So I wrote the damned book. If you don't want it, you don't want it, but I'm not going to write it all out again here, ya know?

I will say one thing. Cancer is a break down of the body's synergism and there is not a "single cure" type thing - curing it takes a synergistic approach. You have to completely rebuild the immune system, eat to energize the body while starving the cancer, eat foods that cause apoptosis, and add lifestyle factors - exercise, sunshine (not just Vit D sups, but real sunshine so your body produces a sulfur compound that cancer can't hack), attitude and outlook - minimal stress. It's the whole works.

It's funny - people call me a nut or yap about how doctors don't know so I don't -- um.........guess where I got general knowledge of the disease and the key nutritional info? Pub Med. A lot of this stuff has been researched very hard. They know what works -- it just doesn't make the medical journals and when it doesn't get to the medical journals - it doesn't get to the doctors. Go figure.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Don't want the book that tells exactly - just want me to tell it for free.........which is why I wrote a book. After I killed Ricky's cancer I was deluged with people who wanted a 40 page answer, typed, doublespaced, and free. So I wrote the damned book. If you don't want it, you don't want it, but I'm not going to write it all out again here, ya know?

For someone who rants and raves about big pharma making profit from vulnerable people I assumed that your book would be free?

I will say one thing. Cancer is a break down of the body's synergism and there is not a "single cure" type thing - curing it takes a synergistic approach. You have to completely rebuild the immune system, eat to energize the body while starving the cancer, eat foods that cause apoptosis, and add lifestyle factors - exercise, sunshine (not just Vit D sups, but real sunshine so your body produces a sulfur compound that cancer can't hack), attitude and outlook - minimal stress. It's the whole works.

Actually cancer is a genetic mutation which results in uncontrollable cellular growth. Predominately them genetic mutations are random or on a lesser scale, caused by environmental causes. Please explain to me how your approach accounts for RANDOM genetic mutations? Please tell me so I can go make a boat load of money....

It's funny - people call me a nut or yap about how doctors don't know so I don't -- um.........guess where I got general knowledge of the disease and the key nutritional info? Pub Med. A lot of this stuff has been researched very hard. They know what works -- it just doesn't make the medical journals and when it doesn't get to the medical journals - it doesn't get to the doctors. Go figure.

Thats an interesting way of saying it... I've just read 20 journal articles looking at the positive effects of turmeric... Funny how none of them articles which claimed greatness didn't talk about turmeric's poor bioavailability and lack of clinical trials on the toxicity of turmeric when dosed at certain amounts. It doesn't get to doctors because the 1000's of professional researchers (outside of any pharma company) say its a load of crap...

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ThomM 10 years ago

Actually cancer is a genetic mutation

Aren't g.m.o. crops also genetic mutations?
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- butters 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ThomM
  
  Aren't g.m.o. crops also genetic mutations?
  
  Dunno, I know crap about GMO I was just interested in GMO debate then it got to cancer
  
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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

For someone who rants and raves about big pharma making profit from vulnerable people I assumed that your book would be free?

Actually cancer is a genetic mutation which results in uncontrollable cellular growth. Predominately them genetic mutations are random or on a lesser scale, caused by environmental causes. Please explain to me how your approach accounts for RANDOM genetic mutations? Please tell me so I can go make a boat load of money....

Thats an interesting way of saying it... I've just read 20 journal articles looking at the positive effects of turmeric... Funny how none of them articles which claimed greatness didn't talk about turmeric's poor bioavailability and lack of clinical trials on the toxicity of turmeric when dosed at certain amounts. It doesn't get to doctors because the 1000's of professional researchers (outside of any pharma company) say its a load of crap...

No - not all cancer is genetic mutation - those that aren't are a lot easier to get rid of, though. Secondly..........exactly how do you think those genes are getting mutated? Even researchers and any doctors I've known don't buy the "inherited" line. It's either H51 or H53 (can't remember) that's the real troublesome one.

Also - yes I do know what apoptosis is. You still seem to be under the impression that cancer cells work the same way a normal cell does. You WANT apoptosis in cancer cells and tumors. They don't function as regular body cells so you can attack cancer without attacking normal cells.

I have no intentions of writing free books. Comparing me to a pharm for charging for my work is ridiculous. If I were a pharm, you would have no choice in your care but to buy my book and anything I list in it, no matter what I wanted to charge for it, and everything else would be so suppressed even your doctors wouldn't know about them.

People make their own choices. When my family is sick now - they call me instead of a doctor. Do I know everything - absolutely not. Do I know how to research medical studies? Absolutely. Could I cure anyone who had an illness? Don't I wish? I told what has worked for me, my dog, my sister. What people do is their own choice and when it comes to life and death - everyone has to, and will, make their own choices and sometimes you just have to stand by and watch them die. Sometimes something you totally disagree with works for someone. It's everyone's personal decision when it comes to their life - or their pets.

I had a friend with freckles. Some of them were turning into sores that wouldn't heal. She was having a dermatologist burn them off. I told her to soak them for a few minutes with H2O2, then coat them with lemon juice and dust that with baking soda. That's how I killed the tumor on my leg. She tried it and the sores healed. She went and told her dermatologist and he said that it couldn't work - so she stopped doing it and started paying the big bucks to have them burned off again. There's no accounting for people's choices. I don't try to. I simply use what I have used and found to work. If you want to argue, fine. Do so. It won't change my results. My family is healthy. I don't care about much else.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

No - not all cancer is genetic mutation - those that aren't are a lot easier to get rid of, though. Secondly..........exactly how do you think those genes are getting mutated? Even researchers and any doctors I've known don't buy the "inherited" line. It's either H51 or H53 (can't remember) that's the real troublesome one.

Give me an example of one which doesn't have some form of faulty gene or mutation resulting in cancer?

Also - yes I do know what apoptosis is. You still seem to be under the impression that cancer cells work the same way a normal cell does. You WANT apoptosis in cancer cells and tumors. They don't function as regular body cells so you can attack cancer without attacking normal cells.

No i'm not, I know exactly what it is and why it is a good thing. How? How does ones body actually attack its owns body cells and what cellular process is involved in this? Then, give me a scenario as to which this could result in a bad thing. Followed up by, how do these cells avoid this form of removal? Lets start drilling down on the way you perceive cancer and explain where you are going wrong. I must ask that you please be specific, don't just say something general like, the immune response.

I have no intentions of writing free books. Comparing me to a pharm for charging for my work is ridiculous. If I were a pharm, you would have no choice in your care but to buy my book and anything I list in it, no matter what I wanted to charge for it, and everything else would be so suppressed even your doctors wouldn't know about them.

Well lets consider the based on the impression of big pharma to what you do...

Big pharma hides data - You have no data
Big pharma charges for products - You charge for products
Big pharma preforms clinical trials and fudges data - You have no data
Big pharma pays off doctors to say its good - You pick articles which you kinda understand and assume thats what its talking about.
The general science behind big pharma is solid - So is yours but you don't actually understand it

Do I need carry on making comparisons? Both pray on the week, both apparently have data which supports it but the BIG difference between them and you is, at least they actually do the research themselves. Your research is observational only, you haven't run genetic testing, imaging, receptor up/down regulatory tests. Come on.... Your actually worse, your more dangerous, your uninformed (you reading a few pub med journals is not informed!!) and your in it for the money. Please tell me which part of that statement is incorrect and will gladly highlight how it is.

won't change my results.

I'm sorry I don't see results, I see general observations with nothing scientific backing up your claims.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

I'm sorry I don't see results, I see general observations with nothing scientific backing up your claims.

That's precisely the same scenario that takes place with every other person who believes in this stuff. They feel that their 'personal observations' lend credence to their beliefs. If you are vociferous in your oppositions to their claims you are labeled 'ignorant, close-minded and uninformed.'

When you ask for 'proof' beyond their personal beliefs all you get is . . . . . . crickets. That's because you can't produce something that doesn't exists.

You must know by now that you are beating a dead horse. Anything that you contribute that is based on actual, verifiable, documented proof will be ridiculed, as will you for being under the spell of 'the man.'

You should learn to do what I do - shake your head in total disbelief and laugh your ass off at the abject ignorance that is trotted-out and put on display as knowledge.

You seem to be an intelligent and serious-minded person. Life is short. Don't waste a minute of it dealing with intellectual intransigence. If you base your existence with facts as your foundation, then you can, as I do, be totally comfortable in your personal assessment that you are intellectually superior to people that are one toadstool away from from inflicting illness or death on those they purport to love and care about.

I maintain that when it comes time to deal with their own personal decision on a course of treatment should they be stricken, even if they use natural curatives and diet and exercise and yoga and watching Three Stooges movies for endorphin level raising laughter, when the doctor says,"the only thing I can offer to prolong your life is a regimen is chemo,' I guarantee you that they'll roll up their sleeve so fast it'll make your head spin. You will get a few very dishonest people that will tell you, "Oh, no - not me. I'd rather die." All I can say to that is that they are either flat-out liars or have a life that is so miserable that sure - they probably would be better off dead. If they love themselves at any level and their friends and family, they will fight, using everything at their disposal in an effort to prolong their life. If not - they're better off dead and the world will be none the worse for their passing.

I have never read so much tripe in one thread. It's hard to believe that it's being posted in 2015.

People like to think I'm uneducated because I only have a GED education. Not a problem. Reading this thread reaffirms my belief that common-sense and an open mind trumps BS and a regimented belief in fantasy. Now this is where people say that I'm the one with the closed-mind, but they are wrong. When I am presented with documented proof that warrants a change in my belief I will gladly do so, admitting to the world that I have been proven wrong. Nothing would make me happier than to be wrong on this subject. Unfortunately I will probably be going to my grave with the beliefs that I currently hold. Nothing posted here as an alternative treatment for cancer is backed-up by any credible controlled research study.

If we're going to ban threads on politics and religion, we should probably eliminate threads on medicine because from what I have observed, most of the insane beliefs that people espouse in these threads are generally based on their personal politics and religion/superstition.

Have a beautiful Sunday.

Frank

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MissTerraK

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

That's precisely the same scenario that takes place with every other person who believes in this stuff. They feel that their 'personal observations' lend credence to their beliefs. If you are vociferous in your oppositions to their claims you are labeled 'ignorant, close-minded and uninformed.'

When you ask for 'proof' beyond their personal beliefs all you get is . . . . . . crickets. That's because you can't produce something that doesn't exists.

You must know by now that you are beating a dead horse. Anything that you contribute that is based on actual, verifiable, documented proof will be ridiculed, as will you for being under the spell of 'the man.'

You should learn to do what I do - shake your head in total disbelief and laugh your ass off at the abject ignorance that is trotted-out and put on display as knowledge.

You seem to be an intelligent and serious-minded person. Life is short. Don't waste a minute of it dealing with intellectual intransigence. If you base your existence with facts as your foundation, then you can, as I do, be totally comfortable in your personal assessment that you are intellectually superior to people that are one toadstool away from from inflicting illness or death on those they purport to love and care about.

I maintain that when it comes time to deal with their own personal decision on a course of treatment should they be stricken, even if they use natural curatives and diet and exercise and yoga and watching Three Stooges movies for endorphin level raising laughter, when the doctor says,"the only thing I can offer to prolong your life is a regimen is chemo,' I guarantee you that they'll roll up their sleeve so fast it'll make your head spin. You will get a few very dishonest people that will tell you, "Oh, no - not me. I'd rather die." All I can say to that is that they are either flat-out liars or have a life that is so miserable that sure - they probably would be better off dead. If they love themselves at any level and their friends and family, they will fight, using everything at their disposal in an effort to prolong their life. If not - they're better off dead and the world will be none the worse for their passing.

I have never read so much tripe in one thread. It's hard to believe that it's being posted in 2015.

People like to think I'm uneducated because I only have a GED education. Not a problem. Reading this thread reaffirms my belief that common-sense and an open mind trumps BS and a regimented belief in fantasy. Now this is where people say that I'm the one with the closed-mind, but they are wrong. When I am presented with documented proof that warrants a change in my belief I will gladly do so, admitting to the world that I have been proven wrong. Nothing would make me happier than to be wrong on this subject. Unfortunately I will probably be going to my grave with the beliefs that I currently hold. Nothing posted here as an alternative treatment for cancer is backed-up by any credible controlled research study.

If we're going to ban threads on politics and religion, we should probably eliminate threads on medicine because from what I have observed, most of the insane beliefs that people espouse in these threads are generally based on their personal politics and religion/superstition.

Have a beautiful Sunday.

Frank

I've never once wondered about your education, and quite frankly, I don't even need to know it. The only thing I do know is that you're better than an ostrich, lol!

Terra

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BigFrank Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

IThe only thing I do know is that you're better than an ostrich, lol! Terra

Really? So - are you saying that having one's head up one's ass is better than having it buried in the sand??? :-)

Cheers. - Frank
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- MissTerraK 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BigFrank
  
  Really? So - are you saying that having one's head up one's ass is better than having it buried in the sand??? :-)
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  Are you telling me that you have your head up your a$$?
  
  Terra
  
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  BigFrank Banned 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by MissTerraK
  
  Are you telling me that you have your head up your a$$? Terra
  
  Well, I'm a firm believer in beating the crowd. If I didn't say it, someone else would have. Trust me on this. :-)
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

You must know by now that you are beating a dead horse. Anything that you contribute that is based on actual, verifiable, documented proof will be ridiculed, as will you for being under the spell of 'the man.'

You should learn to do what I do - shake your head in total disbelief and laugh your ass off at the abject ignorance that is trotted-out and put on display as knowledge.

You seem to be an intelligent and serious-minded person.

I have to admit that I get pleasure from seeing a new intelligent person. And they seem to follow a course, that we have all followed here.

We fight, we put up arguments, we appeal to logic.....and eventually, we get tired.

Have you noticed how the main six or eight real sharp people here, aren't commenting on this thread? It's because they have gone through this so often, it becomes exhausting.

But we all have moments of weakness. I still occasionally try to argue some bizarre claim.
And then I am reminded that beliefs are bulletproof.

I have a nightmare, where I'm 80 years old, and am about to start my chemo....and a well meaning, but insane relative... kidnaps me from the hospital....and takes me to a Yoga class....and I'm too weak to stop them. If it really happened...I wonder if I would laugh at the absurdity...or cry, because of the absurdity.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I have to admit that I get pleasure from seeing a new intelligent person. And they seem to follow a course, that we have all followed here.

We fight, we put up arguments, we appeal to logic.....and eventually, we get tired.

Have you noticed how the main six or eight real sharp people here, aren't commenting on this thread? It's because they have gone through this so often, it becomes exhausting.

But we all have moments of weakness. I still occasionally try to argue some bizarre claim.
And then I am reminded that beliefs are bulletproof.

I refuse to be bowed by a douchenozzle deluge of misinformation, quackery and outright BS.

If I were to quit I would be giving people exactly what they want. They shouldn't hold their breath waiting for that. It's OK that many warriors fall by the wayside. I will carry the banner of common sense and sanity until I keel over, dead.

Nothing gives me greater satisfaction and nothing pisses them off, more!

Ferdinand Foch at the Second Battle of the Marne (1918): "My center is giving way, my right is pushed back; situation excellent, I am attacking."

Cheers. - Frank

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Karen Blundell

10 years ago

Frank, do you have a problem with someone who loves nature and believes that everything we need is part of it? Is there something wrong with that?

I respect what you believe, but I don't have to think like you and I don't like the inference that we are somehow stupid if we are open to natural remedies to treat diseases -

and Claude, you basically insulted those of us who believe in alternative treatments as less smart than those who have decided not to take part in this discussion.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the last time I will discuss any health-related topic - as I not going to put myself in a position to be bullied by the likes of a few of you who have made up their minds to make us look like pariahs for not conforming and swallowing the crap that mainstream medicine and big pharma will have us believe.

Maybe just like religion and politics, health should be a taboo topic - it has obviously hurt some relationships - and the true nature of some people has been exposed -

what an eye-opener.

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MissTerraK

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

I respect what you believe, but I don't have to think like you and I don't like the inference that we are somehow stupid if we are open to natural remedies to treat diseases - ...

and the true nature of some people has been exposed -

what an eye-opener.

I couldn't agree more with you on the above Karen!

Terra

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

Frank, do you have a problem with someone who loves nature and believes that everything we need is part of it? Is there something wrong with that?

Not wrong. Simply irrational and misguided.

I respect what you believe, but I don't have to think like you and I don't like the inference that we are somehow stupid if we are open to natural remedies to treat diseases

I can't be held responsible for your feelings. You own them and will have to process them in your own way.

and the true nature of some people has been exposed.

Yep. All the way around. :-)

Cheers. - Frank

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Karen Blundell

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Simply irrational and misguided.

time to shut this thread, mods , please - I don't deserve to be attacked for embracing natural health and neither does anyone else.

thank you.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

time to shut this thread, mods , please - I don't deserve to be attacked for embracing natural health and neither does anyone else.

thank you.

Think about what you just said.

So, if people disagree with you, the thread should be shut down?

Have you ever read, "Some people here believe that Yoga is as good as chemo-therapy. I keep reading insane comments, just like this. These people are not using logic....so I think the thread should be shut down"?

No.

Everyone is entitled to posting their opinion. You too. And we are also entitled to find someone's opinion ridiculous. Some opinions are not reasonable. that's a fact.

You don't like someone's post? Show them where they are wrong. Convince them.

That's the right response. Asking the Mods to shut it down, because your feelings are hurt? Because people don't agree with you? That's silly. You can leave, but you can't tell everyone to go home.

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MissTerraK 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

You can leave, but you can't tell everyone to go home.

Uhhh, Claude, Honey?

I am at home and I'll bet you are too.

Terra
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- ThomM 10 years ago
  
  Butters, if you make it through all the garbage here's one more for you. This has to do with boosting the immune system during cancer treatments and not curing cancer.
  FDA Approves Turkey Tail Trial for Cancer Patients | Bastyr University
  It's also another example of why scientist are constantly looking in nature for treatments and cures.
  
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Karen Blundell

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Think about what you just said.

So, if people disagree with you, the thread should be shut down?

Have you ever read, "Some people here believe that Yoga is as good as chemo-therapy. I keep reading insane comments, just like this. These people are not using logic....so I think the thread should be shut down"?

No.

Everyone is entitled to posting their opinion. You too. And we are also entitled to find someone's opinion ridiculous. Some opinions are not reasonable. that's a fact.

You don't like someone's post? Show them where they are wrong. Convince them.

That's the right response. Asking the Mods to shut it down, because your feelings are hurt? Because people don't agree with you? That's silly. You can leave, but you can't tell everyone to go home.

I didn't ask to shut the thread down because of differences of opinions, I asked to shut it down because a couple of you have resorted to personal attacks -

how is being called irrational and misguided because of my beliefs NOT a personal attack?

And I'm human - yes, my feelings are hurt, because I did not post anything "irrational" that I know of in this entire thread.

let me repeat what I posted before for those of you who think I am irrational and misguided:

I'm not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one - but I certainly keep an open mind about all alternative treatments and don't place 100% trust on any one doctor. After all, I know my body better than any doctor would. So if I got diagnosed with a life-threatening disease, I would get multiple opinions before I chose any form of treatment.

does that sound irrational to you? or misguided?

I thought that was the most common sense approach to personal health in the entire thread.

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BigFrank Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

how is being called irrational and misguided because of my beliefs NOT a personal attack?.

At the risk of repeating myself . . . . .

Attacked, Karen? Seriously? Attacked? Wow.

Cheers. - Frank
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

let me repeat what I posted before for those of you who think I am irrational and misguided:
I'm not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one - but I certainly keep an open mind about all alternative treatments and don't place 100% trust on any one doctor. After all, I know my body better than any doctor would. So if I got diagnosed with a life-threatening disease, I would get multiple opinions before I chose any form of treatment.

does that sound irrational to you? or misguided?

I thought that was the most common sense approach to personal health in the entire thread.

Karen;
First, I don't remember posting anything as a response to any of your posts.

Second; I wasn't talking to you..... or even about you. You took a general statement (I'm assuming), and decided...all on your own...that I was talking to you...or about you.

And now you want to show something you said and essentially say "Well, don't I sound rational here?"

You think we (or at least I) am attacking you. I mean no disrespect, but I wasn't even thinking of you.

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Karen Blundell 10 years ago

You were not the one who called me irrational and misguided, Claude.

I am merely responding to you, because of your previous post and because you thought I wanted the thread closed because I couldn't handle a difference of opinion - which is not true at all -

anyway - I'll get over my hurt feelings - I don't hold grudges - I will just ignore people who I feel I should.
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- BigFrank Banned 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Karen Blundell
  
  I will just ignore people who I feel I should.
  
  There ya' go. One of the secrets to a stress-free existence.
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
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BigFrank Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

time to shut this thread, mods , please - I don't deserve to be attacked for embracing natural health and neither does anyone else.

thank you.

Attacked, Karen? Seriously? Attacked? Wow.

Cheers. - Frank
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ThomM 10 years ago

Butters I found another study on cannabinoids and cancer.
Critical appraisal of the potential use of cannabinoids in cancer mana | CMAR
Also if you find cannabis to be an interesting subject, you may want to check out Granny's list The List - July 2014
Granny has spent years compiling a list of studies and research done on medical cannabis. She's very honest with her work and is one of the first to admit that cannabis isn't 100% safe for all people.
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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

Frank, do you have a problem with someone who loves nature and believes that everything we need is part of it? Is there something wrong with that?

I respect what you believe, but I don't have to think like you and I don't like the inference that we are somehow stupid if we are open to natural remedies to treat diseases -

Here is the thing... I and I suspect others have no problem with you loving nature, you can eat what ever, drink what ever, go crazy... This is where I do have the problems and that is when unfounded claims (Not saying you did this) have been put forth as FACT. People suffering from cancer or have family member suffering from cancer are in a very vulnerable state. They may read a post about some magic cure and put full faith in it and that is very dangerous since the science behind it is shoddy at best.

Thats where I have a problem with alternative medicine. If you show me a alternative which has promise, great, I'll have a completely unbiased view. Take turmeric for example, it looks promising to an extent but due to its poor bioavailability it is a poor choice right now for a drug but some of the science behind it merits further research into it. Now lets take things like essiac, its an anti oxidant... It lowers oxidative stress, great... Breathing causes oxidative stress but no one seems to create a drug to stop oxidative stress caused from that. Thats my problem, people push stuff based on crap science and pass it off as fact.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Here is the thing... I and I suspect others have no problem with you loving nature, you can eat what ever, drink what ever, go crazy... This is where I do have the problems and that is when unfounded claims (Not saying you did this) have been put forth as FACT. People suffering from cancer or have family member suffering from cancer are in a very vulnerable state. They may read a post about some magic cure and put full faith in it and that is very dangerous since the science behind it is shoddy at best.

Thats where I have a problem with alternative medicine. If you show me a alternative which has promise, great, I'll have a completely unbiased view. Take turmeric for example, it looks promising to an extent but due to its poor bioavailability it is a poor choice right now for a drug but some of the science behind it merits further research into it. Now lets take things like essiac, its an anti oxidant... It lowers oxidative stress, great... Breathing causes oxidative stress but no one seems to create a drug to stop oxidative stress caused from that. Thats my problem, people push stuff based on crap science and pass it off as fact.

Butters; I just found Sal's book, and bought it. It's called Saving Ricky.The Second Rescue Here's a link.

Saving Ricky: The Second Rescue - Kindle edition...

It looks like a quick Kindle read. I'm going to read it.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Butters; I just found Sal's book, and bought it. It's called Saving Ricky.The Second Rescue Here's a link.

Saving Ricky: The Second Rescue - Kindle edition by S. A. Taylor. Crafts, Hobbies & Home Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

It looks like a quick Kindle read. I'm going to read it.

Let me know how you get on

I don't have time to read a 40 page e-book right now

Got way to much coursework to be doing!

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

So, they would risk human health to null society, and save money!

Disgusting, l think that after reading that, no-one here could take a Doctor seriously about Cancer treatments anymore!

No, wonder when l go out and try to drink some tap water l ALWAYS feel sick after half a glass.

I will certainly fill my Mother in, next time l go out with her to a coffee shop and she gawks at me when l bring out my filtered tap water bottle than drink their s****!

Thanks for the heads up Sal!

Well, US water I believe is NOT usually going to make the average person feel sick. An INDIAN woman(born and raised in INDIA) once told me, after I told her about the famous Montezumas revenge that mexico has, told me that SHE has similar problems EVERY time she goes back to india!

That said though, I recently watched a video on you tube about restaurants, presumably mostly in the US, and they spoke of the plumbing in those soft drink dispensers. A LOT of them are used to provide water, and THEY could end up giving you bad water. A few decades ago, there was a nasty illness that hit one VERY LOCAL area in the US. I mean it basically hit NOT a state, county, or even a city, but a BUILDING!!! It was SO unusual, that it got named after the first group to get it! And IT ended up being similar, in origin and practical cure, to MR!!!!! Anyway, today that illness is known mostly as Legionnaires' disease. Legionnaires' disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The first recognized cases of Legionnaires' disease occurred in 1976 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Among attendees of a Legionnaires' convention held at the Bellevue-Stratford Hotel, 221 attendees contracted the disease and 34 of them died.[25]

So YEAH, NOBODY is really immune. HECK, when I get my AC system checked twice a year, one of the tasks is cleaning it, and possibly replacing a pad that helps retard growth of things like that legionella bacteria. I imagine many systems are NEVER checked until a problem pops up, or the place is sold.

Steve

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

That's the problem we have currently with GMO. However, that problem will resolve itself in time. If people are truly harmed by these foods, the companies won't be able to cover it up. The lawsuits and liability will force change if nothing else does.

If 10 or 20 more years go by with no proven damage to the environment or to people who eat GMOs....at some point it will be an accepted growing method. You can only claim "danger" for so long - either the facts prove you right or prove you wrong.

I am definitely for labeling. People should know what they are buying and have a choice in the matter.

No. You can yell "Danger" forever. We have proof of this.

I think GMOs are going to kill us all. And I'm not going to spend three minutes looking up what GMO is....and how it works. I'm just afraid. And if enough people stay afraid...

we must be right.

GMOs are the way Big Vegetable is going to wipe up out.

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discrat

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

No. You can yell "Danger" forever. We have proof of this.

I think GMOs are going to kill us all. And I'm not going to spend three minutes looking up what GMO is....and how it works. I'm just afraid. And if enough people stay afraid...

we must be right.

Yep.
You know there are A LOT of people in this World who make a huge Living by keeping people scared !
I just wonder if the GMO crisis calms down or people actually find solutions whether many of these anti- GMO people ( the highly visible ones) will be hitting the poor house

I suspect it is a big business !

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yukon

Banned 10 years ago

It's like canned goods only with less sodium.

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whateverpedia

10 years ago

Haven't farmers been genetically modifying crops and livestock since farming first began?

And yes, I realise that that is a different level to what Monsanto is doing.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Haven't farmers been genetically modifying crops and livestock since farming first began?

And yes, I realise that that is a different level to what Monsanto is doing.

It's not a different level it's a whole different thing.
What farmers have been doing is selecting plants or animal with desirable traits and breeding them to enforce those traits, or selective breeding as it's often called.
What Monsanto is doing and what the term genetic engineering has come to mean is taking DNA from a bacteria and splicing it into the DNA of a plant. Something that cannot be duplicated in nature.

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Yes, people eat this stuff and bowel cancer will probably increase dramatically, but can it be linked to eating this stuff, maybe?

At least Doctors will make a nice profit on other peoples misery, but nothing new there!

I sure hope that Au, keeps away from this s***, or at least puts a warning label on our apples!

A skull or Bio-hazard label should do!

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whateverpedia

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

I sure hope that Au, keeps away from this s***, or at least puts a warning label on our apples!

Don't count on that. Check out the story at the moment about people contracting Hepatitis A from eating packets of frozen berries. Once the TPP is signed this sort of thing will become an almost daily occurrence.

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Kay King

10 years ago

No, Sal - 26 countries have banned them - not 63 - at least that I can find.

http://www.thefarmersdaughterusa.com...mos-right.html

It depends on which site you read as to whether is the problem - glyphosate or Bt. It's difficult to find definitive information as most of the website/blogs that discuss the issue don't footnote "studies" they reference and so often have other articles/sections that are purely anti-GMO. Hard to tell which sites have an agenda and which don't.

This one is interesting because it gives some specifics and talks about studies needed and being done.

Glyphosate used with GMO crops under attack for disrupting microbiome: Science or a gut feeling? | Genetic Literacy Project

Some site link GMOs to "gluten allergies" yet GMO's are not done on wheat that I've heard so I don't know where that's coming from. Maybe corn?

Concerns are valid - but I don't know if people realize how much was sprayed on food crops in the past. I grew up on and around big farms and many of the sprayers going through the fields years ago were spraying chemicals that are now illegal. Often crops were sprayed for weeds, for bugs, for mold...and that was before GMOs.

I'm on the fence on this one now where I used to be anti-GMO. Labels are needed, serious unbiased studies are needed - we need fact-based conclusions drawn by the scientific community- not by alarmist blogs or big corporations.

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

No, Sal - 26 countries have banned them - not 63 - at least that I can find.

But, the Rest of the World Bans GMOs; Right?

It depends on which site you read as to whether is the problem - glyphosate or Bt. It's difficult to find definitive information as most of the website/blogs that discuss the issue don't footnote "studies" they reference and so often have other articles/sections that are purely anti-GMO. Hard to tell which sites have an agenda and which don't.

This one is interesting because it gives some specifics and talks about studies needed and being done.

Glyphosate used with GMO crops under attack for disrupting microbiome: Science or a gut feeling? | Genetic Literacy Project

Some site link GMOs to "gluten allergies" yet GMO's are not done on wheat that I've heard so I don't know where that's coming from. Maybe corn?

Concerns are valid - but I don't know if people realize how much was sprayed on food crops in the past. I grew up on and around big farms and many of the sprayers going through the fields years ago were spraying chemicals that are now illegal. Often crops were sprayed for weeds, for bugs, for mold...and that was before GMOs.

I'm on the fence on this one now where I used to be anti-GMO. Labels are needed, serious unbiased studies are needed - we need fact-based conclusions drawn by the scientific community- not by alarmist blogs or big corporations.

Most gmo's are engineered to withstand more spraying the was used before.
Now they have developed a corn that can be sprayed with 2-4-D, because you know that's safe

I studied pesticides in college and was a certified commercial pesticide applicator for years until I decided I was doing more harm then good. I can tell you 2-4-D is not safe. As an applicator I had to wear a full hazmat suit with respirator. One reason for the new type of corn is because weeds are becoming immune to round-up now that it can be sprayed multiple times on a crop. Same thing will (and already is) happen with 2-4-D.
I also grew up on and around farms. Fortunately the majority of the farmers I knew where very careful using pesticides if they used them at all. But if you think farms use to spray a lot of chemicals, you haven't seen nothing yet. You didn't see stuff like this in the past. (Bold is mine)

Glyphosate, also known by its tradename Roundup, is commonly found in rain and rivers in agricultural areas in the Mississippi River watershed, according to two new USGS studies released this month. Glyphosate is used in almost all agricultural and urban areas of the United States. The greatest glyphosate use is in the Mississippi River basin, where most applications are for weed control on genetically-modified corn, soybeans and cotton. Overall, agricultural use of glyphosate has increased from less than 11,000 tons in 1992 to more than 88,000 tons in 2007.
"Though glyphosate is the mostly widely used herbicide in the world, we know very little about its long term effects to the environment," says Paul Capel, USGS chemist and an author on this study. "This study is one of the first to document the consistent occurrence of this chemical in streams, rain and air throughout the growing season. This is crucial information for understanding where management efforts for this chemical would best be focused."USGS Release: Widely Used Herbicide Commonly Found in Rain and Streams in the Mississippi River Basin (8/29/2011 8:19:35 AM)

So they did spray a lot of chemicals in the past, but they spray a hell of a lot more now.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Thom - Monsanto and ilk says that the glysophate is deactivated and passes through in digestion but that's been found to be a flat out lie. It's in the bloodstream of people tested - and crosses the blood/brain barrier. Independent studies in other countries have shown that it causes extreme tumors. A lot of farmers are reverting back from GMO food for their animals because their animals are getting so desperately ill from them.

Fields sprayed with these toxins are barren of all life other than the frankencrop. That means the sprays are killing the very bacteria that makes soil.

63 countries have banned them. It's not likely that the US will become smart enough to understand that money or not - we have to stop this and we don't have long to do so. That's not freaking - fear mongering. Sometimes corporations do things that we damned well need to be completely scared shytless about. GMO is one of those things.

I

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HeySal

10 years ago

Kay - the Genetic Literacy Project is the fox guarding the chickens - so is the other link.

There's enough research done out there that if you would look at independents rather than the very people that are pushing them on us, you would understand what the risk is. If we sit around being "reasonable" by the time the independent voice gets enough media, we won't have any pollinators or arable soil left to support the masses.

GMO Facts | The Non-GMO Project

Most of the food I buy is certified Non-GMO by this organization, which does research on foods. You'd be surprised that some companies (cereal companies are bad about this one) actually lie right on their labels about the nature of their food.

http://earthopensource.org/earth-ope...s-2nd-edition/

There are excellent documentaries available that have a lot of independent research results on this mess. I'd think people need to start getting busy and researching something that isn't mainstream propaganda that supports corporations before they start spraying that new extremely toxic crap the USDA just authorized. If you are on the fence now - you won't be for long. Trust me on that one.

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seasoned

10 years ago

WHO SAYS this is progress? Apparently, the worlds BEST herbicide was created LONG AGO! This is before roundup, etc... It was used in WWII to get rid of some nasty vermin, like maleria and typhus! HECK, the inventor got a NOBEL PRIZE for inventing it! It was SO great that now, that so many decided to stop using it, various pests, like bed bugs, are back. And they are FAR harder to control with the current INFERIOR TECHNOLOGY! That is RIGHT folks, sometimes "progress" goes BACKWARDS!

So WHY did they stop using this stuff, created in 1874 BTW, It was an INTERNATIONAL CONSPIRACY! YEP! The swiss gave this great stuff to the world! A lot of vermin were wiped out, or nearly so, and it was SIMPLE! Apparently, at one point, ANYONE could buy this stuff, and get rid of their problems. But THEN............. THEN............. People started noticing something! Some wildlife were having problems! Even BIRD eggs started seeming more like SNAKE eggs. So the world decided to STOP, and things started coming back.

OK, OK, I know this all sounds like I am making it up. When I was a kid, this story was pretty common knowledge. The chemical? dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane Of course that was too hard to say, so most just call it DDT! DDT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Here is a SMALL taste of what caused people to STOP this! American Eagle Foundation | Threats to Survival

DDT is an insecticide that has been widely used for pest control. The three letters come from the chemical name, dichloro-diphenyl-trichloroethane. This grayish-white powder kills insects by affecting the nervous system. DDT decays slowly and appears in the birds, fish, and animals that eat plants.

Some DDT never reaches the pest or insect that it is supposed to control. Small particles of DDT travel through the air and water. It is then absorbed in the organs and tissues of birds and animals. DDT is also taken indirectly when birds and fish eat organisms that contain the pesticide. DDT then passes from one organism to another through the food chain. A large fish can take in heavy amounts of DDT by eating smaller fish that have the material in their body. If a bird then eats the fish, the concentrated DDT is passed into the bird's body. This is an illustration of a food chain.

DDT has been used on a large scale. DDT has killed useful insects, as well as harmful ones. It may have also endangered other animal life, including birds and fish. Ingestion of pesticides such as DDT has disrupted the reproductive systems of female eagles, often causing their eggs to be infertile. The amount of calcium in the eggshells also becomes reduced, causing them to become thin and brittle and , consequently, to break during incubation.

It took them DECADES, and perhaps even over 100 years to realize all this. HECK, in the 40s they had a great chemical that was used to dry clean clothes, remove stains, and put out fires. Apparently its equal has YET to be found. Look in some old three stooges movies, the keystone cops, or the our gang series, and it will make a cameo! Do we have them now? NOPE! It was found that it was carcinogenic, etc....

So YEP folks! A newer product does NOT make it better!

Steve

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seasoned

10 years ago

BTW! Time for ANOTHER bit of history on GMOs! Once upon a time, there was a place! The place? Let's call it the third planet from its star. A little planet called EARTH! The time? The 1980s! A little company off in a remote foreign land. What to call it? Well, let's call it JAPAN! Anyway, there was a tried and true technique used for DECADES to create an AMINO acid called TRYPTOPHAN! But this japanese company thought they could do BETTER! DA DADA DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Along comes our hero GMO man, to save the day! They created a special bacteria that could create this tryptophan SO much easier and faster! ALAS, in a distant far off land, called the united states of america, there was a rash of deaths, and weird ailments! They tracked it to about 2 dozen brands of tryptophan. ALL were from materials processed by that japanese company!

Institute for Responsible Technology - A Deadly Epidemic and the Attempt to Hide its Link to Genetic Engineering

The result? A MYTH was spread about tryptophan and they BANNED it in the USA for about a decade! INTERESTINGLY, they did NOT ban the natural form. REMEMBER, the MYTH said it was TRYPTOPHAN! That meant, for example, that all meat, ESPECIALLY TURKEY, was DEADLY! And EGGS were deadly, etc.... But I guess they hoped nobody would notice!

BTW they chemically analyzed the japanese tryptophan and determined it was CLOSE, but it was NOT tryptophan!

Steve

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Or....

You forum level environmentalists, botanists, biologists, nutritionists,
agriculturists, and masters of genetics have it all figured out.

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butters

10 years ago

Don’t believe the hype – 10 persistent cancer myths debunked

Interesting article by Cancer Research UK, a non-profit organisation (I thought that may be relevant here

). Some of you should really read this!

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Karen Blundell

10 years ago

Originally Posted by butters

Don't believe the hype - 10 persistent cancer myths debunked

Interesting article by Cancer Research UK, a non-profit organisation (I thought that may be relevant here

). Some of you should really read this!

lol - I've read it

and if you think I believe everything I read online - no, I don't -

I'm not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one - but I certainly keep an open mind about all alternative treatments and don't place 100% trust on any one doctor. After all, I know my body better than any doctor would. So if I got diagnosed with a life-threatening disease, I would get multiple opinions before I chose any form of treatment.

btw, every single loved one of mine who had mainstream treatment for cancer are dead. The two people I know who chose only alternative treatments are still alive and cancer-free.

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butters

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Karen Blundell

lol - I've read it

and if you think I believe everything I read online - no, I don't -

I'm not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one - but I certainly keep an open mind about all alternative treatments and don't place 100% trust on any one doctor. After all, I know my body better than any doctor would. So if I got diagnosed with a life-threatening disease, I would get multiple opinions before I chose any form of treatment.

btw, every single loved one of mine who had mainstream treatment for cancer are dead. The two people I know who chose only alternative treatments are still alive and cancer-free.

Sorry to hear about your losses.

The more I am reading into these alternative medicines the more I have to call BS on them (Well I called that anyway but I'm just re confirming my beliefs). Right now I looked at traditional Korean medicine, it uses a massive amount of herbs, even the herbs found in essiac. There main herb is Curcuma longa (turmeric). They are claiming it does all these wonderful things ranging from anti-inflammation, reduction in oxidative stress, effects molecular pathways and everything. Its turmeric... It's what you have in a curry, thats effectively saying, eat a curry and cure cancer. It's making it very hard for me to see any validity in most alternative medicine...

The funny thing I have found out is this, most "alternative" medicines which hold any relevance, have become part of conventional medicine. Look at traditional Chinese medicine, there has been a flurry of approvals by the FDA and NHS over the past 5 years for some of there stuff. It seems like, the stuff which works becomes main stream, the stuff which doesn't remains in the quackery section.

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Canadian GMO apples approved for sale :(

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