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we really don't know

by gareth
10 replies
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What is the universe expanding into?

I am very confused about things my science book says about the expanding universe. Every book I have seen has defined the universe as "everything". If the universe is expanding what is it expanding into? It would have to expand into even more universe. I understand that the red spectra indicates that things are moving away from us but that is drifting not expanding, right? If you could help me to understand this, it would be appreciated. Thank you for your time.

This is a very good question which is not at all easy to give a satisfactory answer to! The first time I tried to write an answer to this, we got so many follow-up questions from people who were still confused that I decided to try to answer it again, this time much more comprehensively. The long explanation is below. However, if you just want a short answer, I'll say this: if the universe is infinitely big, then the answer is simply that it isn't expanding into anything; instead, what is happening is that every region of the universe, every distance between every pair of galaxies, is being "stretched", but the overall size of the universe was infinitely big to begin with and continues to remain infinitely big as time goes on, so the universe's size doesn't change, and therefore it doesn't expand into anything. If, on the other hand, the universe has a finite size, then it may be legitimate to claim that there is something "outside of the universe" that the universe is expanding into. However, because we are, by definition, stuck within the space that makes up our universe and have no way to observe anything outside of it, this ceases to be a question that can be answered scientifically. So the answer in that case is that "we really don't know" what, if anything, the universe is expanding into.

Following this there are several more posts worth of waffle elaborating upon what we really don't know

Curious About Astronomy: What is the universe expanding into?

In short there are 200-400 billion stars in our galaxy and possibly more than 500 billion galaxies in the universe (what ever it is)

...and that adds up to 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars that we think exist for now but we don't know what in.
  • Profile picture of the author bozz723
    There are multiple universe's according to quantum physics and string theory. That means there is a multiverse containing all of the billions and billions of universe's. Uni is one. These universes are expanding in size within the multiverse.



    That is the only explanation I can come up with at this point in time.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Multiverse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The different universes within the multiverse are sometimes called parallel universes. The structure of the multiverse, the nature of each universe within it and the relationship between the various constituent universes, depend on the specific multiverse hypothesis considered.

    Multiverses have been hypothesized in cosmology, physics, astronomy, philosophy, transpersonal psychology and fiction, particularly in science fiction and fantasy. The specific term "multiverse" was coined in 1895 by psychologist William James.[1] In these contexts, parallel universes are also called "alternative universes", "quantum universes", "interpenetrating dimensions", "parallel worlds", "alternative realities", "alternative timelines", etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author gareth
    Universe or multiverse - its the same argument.

    Also to say the universe is infinitely large simply leaves the phenomenon of infinity itself unanswered.

    So what does the multiverse expand into or exist within ?

    No human being will ever come remotely close to answering these questions. The best humans can do is evolve into a higher form of intelligence.
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    Gareth M Thomas
    Serial Entrepreneur
    Auckland, New Zealand

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    • Profile picture of the author bozz723
      Originally Posted by gareth View Post

      Universe or multiverse - its the same argument.

      Also to say the universe is infinitely large simply leaves the phenomenon of infinity itself unanswered.

      So what does the multiverse expand into or exist within ?

      No human being will ever come remotely close to answering these questions. The best humans can do is evolve into a higher form of intelligence.

      Right. It all depends on how you look at it. Is the multiverse expanding? Who knows? The universe is? I think, we think in the multiverse?


      This is like asking how was the universe...or multiverse created. We will never know.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by gareth View Post

      Universe or multiverse - its the same argument.

      Also to say the universe is infinitely large simply leaves the phenomenon of infinity itself unanswered.

      So what does the multiverse expand into or exist within ?

      No human being will ever come remotely close to answering these questions. The best humans can do is evolve into a higher form of intelligence.
      Well, as I understand it, and as wikipedia seems to agree, the multiverse really doesn't exist ANYWHERE! It is a BELIEF, a CONCEPT, a THEORY that there are WHOLE UNIVERSES that exist as they now because of changes in the timeline. So there is SUPPOSEDLY a universe that exists that has an earth that looks much like this, but I, for example, an an electronic engineer. Of course, that means OTHER lives have changed ALSO! All of THEM have different variants.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
    How about this: it isn't expanding. The Universe is infinite. In our own little corner of it, it seems to be expanding but, on a grand scale, that expansion is only a minor aberration.

    If you drop a stone into water, and the waves it produces propel tiny objects on the surface of it away from each other, then, from the point of view of those tiny objects it may seem as if "everything" is moving away from each other but, if you 'zoom out' from that little patch of water to view the whole ocean, you see it's merely a local phenomena and nothing is actually expanding.

    Perhaps the effects of whatever is causing galaxies in our own little corner of the Universe to move away from each other are dissipating at what we think is the outer edge of the Universe, in which case, beyond that "outer edge" lies... MORE Universe!

    See... simple!
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
    On a related note, here's my favourite explanation for life, the Universe, and everything:

    Existence exists.

    What more needs to be said!?
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  • Profile picture of the author gareth
    Another weird thing - if we were not ourselves conscious we would have no clue, not even a hint from science or anything else that consciousness exists.

    All brain analysis, everything indicates nothing at all about consciousness and perception. All science explains thus far is a machine or mechanism.

    The "substance" of perception does not exist in the eyes of science.

    This implies that all manner of extremely odd and bizarre things may exist and we have no knowledge or contemplation of them in any form.

    Being that we are such a minute and insignificant part of physical reality - what does this suggest ?
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    Gareth M Thomas
    Serial Entrepreneur
    Auckland, New Zealand

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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by gareth View Post

      Another weird thing - if we were not ourselves conscious we would have no clue, not even a hint from science or anything else that consciousness exists.

      All brain analysis, everything indicates nothing at all about consciousness and perception. All science explains thus far is a machine or mechanism.

      The "substance" of perception does not exist in the eyes of science.

      This implies that all manner of extremely odd and bizarre things may exist and we have no knowledge or contemplation of them in any form.

      Being that we are such a minute and insignificant part of physical reality - what does this suggest ?
      It suggests all energy innately has perception - i.e. - everything is one. It suggests intelligent design. It suggests that matter is an illusion and only energy exists. It suggests simultaneous multi-dimensional existence.

      It suggests that Gareth has been smoking fatties to be thinking at this level about anything.
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      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
      Beyond the Path

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    • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
      Originally Posted by gareth View Post

      Another weird thing - if we were not ourselves conscious we would have no clue, not even a hint from science or anything else that consciousness exists.

      All brain analysis, everything indicates nothing at all about consciousness and perception. All science explains thus far is a machine or mechanism.

      The "substance" of perception does not exist in the eyes of science.

      This implies that all manner of extremely odd and bizarre things may exist and we have no knowledge or contemplation of them in any form.

      Being that we are such a minute and insignificant part of physical reality - what does this suggest ?
      Cogito Ergo Sum - I think therefore I am.

      Closer to reality -

      Cogito Cogito Ergo Cogito Sum - I think I think therefore I think I am.
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      “Strategy without action is a day-dream; action without strategy is a nightmare.” – Old Japanese proverb -

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