I'm Entering A Song Contest...UPDATE (SONGS SUBMITTED)

Tina Golden

15 years ago

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

I don't know how much my feedback would be worth as I am so NOT musical, but I will at least listen to them and give you my honest opinion. It may not help but I figure it wouldn't hurt, either...lol.

Tina

Thanks Tina, you're a doll. Besides, if you listen to music and have an
opinion, you could very well help more than you realize.

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Tina Golden 15 years ago

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- Killer Joe 15 years ago
  
  I must not be up on music these days. When was I actively playing and singing the last thing I wanted to hear was feedback. That piercing sound coming out of the speakers hurt my ears.
  
  Steve, if your songs are going to need feedback to make them sound better perhaps you should forget about entering them into a contest.
  
  KJ
  
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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

What I Have Going For Me

Sorry, but none of this really makes a whit of difference. You can have a professional quality sound studio for about $300 these days. I've heard only one of your songs, but it was not exactly great.

Don't get me wrong, it was good. But someone in this contest is going to be great. All of your pros are small and readily available to ALL the participants.

What I Have Going Against Me

On the bright side, none of this matters either.

Your single biggest challenge is to decide you don't give a rat's arse about any of your detractors. Music today is angry and belligerent. Seek your inner teen. Stop caring what people will think!

I'm a big boy. I'm passed that age where if you told me my music sucked I'd run off in a huff. I can take, and actually expect, criticism of my music. If you think it sucks. If you think I'm wasting my time, be honest and tell me. You'll be doing me a favor.

You are timid. Your singing voice doesn't suck, but you bury it under layers of effects because you know it isn't great.

Cut it out.

Billy Joel is a mediocre singer, a mediocre songwriter, and a mediocre musician. But so much stuff today SUCKS that Billy Joel looks amazing.

Let your voice ring out clear. Let it come through. Your voice DOESN'T SUCK. It's honest. It's true. Let us hear it. Your voice is NOT BAD. Let it out. Let us hear your lyrics, clear and bright and HONEST.

You are a talented guy. If I were to make specific criticism of your music, it's that you can't mix. You don't blend your music properly. You put the treble way too high on your lead parts, and you mix them too loud.

Mix subtractively. Take all your channels, and put them up where they stay in the yellow zone most of the time with occasional forays into the red. Then put your master up to the point where it does the same. Now, whatever is TOO LOUD - turn it DOWN, then adjust the master. Don't raise ANYTHING except the master volume. Same with your EQ; don't raise anything - only reduce. Take out what sounds wrong, and you're left with what sounds right.

I'll have more for you when I can hear your actual song candidates.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Sorry, but none of this really makes a whit of difference. You can have a professional quality sound studio for about $300 these days. I've heard only one of your songs, but it was not exactly great.

Don't get me wrong, it was good. But someone in this contest is going to be great. All of your pros are small and readily available to ALL the participants.

On the bright side, none of this matters either.

Your single biggest challenge is to decide you don't give a rat's arse about any of your detractors. Music today is angry and belligerent. Seek your inner teen. Stop caring what people will think!

You are timid. Your singing voice doesn't suck, but you bury it under layers of effects because you know it isn't great.

Cut it out.

Billy Joel is a mediocre singer, a mediocre songwriter, and a mediocre musician. But so much stuff today SUCKS that Billy Joel looks amazing.

Let your voice ring out clear. Let it come through. Your voice DOESN'T SUCK. It's honest. It's true. Let us hear it. Your voice is NOT BAD. Let it out. Let us hear your lyrics, clear and bright and HONEST.

You are a talented guy. If I were to make specific criticism of your music, it's that you can't mix. You don't blend your music properly. You put the treble way too high on your lead parts, and you mix them too loud.

Mix subtractively. Take all your channels, and put them up where they stay in the yellow zone most of the time with occasional forays into the red. Then put your master up to the point where it does the same. Now, whatever is TOO LOUD - turn it DOWN, then adjust the master. Don't raise ANYTHING except the master volume. Same with your EQ; don't raise anything - only reduce. Take out what sounds wrong, and you're left with what sounds right.

I'll have more for you when I can hear your actual song candidates.

Now THAT'S the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

CD, you wanna be my manager?

When I used to do piano based stuff and ballads, my voice was out there
and it made people want to scream for the exists. So I've been doing more
upbeat and even harder rock stuff because, let's face it, you don't have
to be a great singer for that stuff, though some rock bands have had
some great vocalists (Freddie Mercury, Paul Rogers, etc.)

I'd submit some of my ballads but my voice can't pull off stuff that has to
have that kind of emotion. So my ballads sound dull and uninteresting, not
that I'm the greatest ballad writer either. But it's certainly something that's
easy to mix. What you've heard online is all my rock power pop stuff and
yes, it was purposely recorded that way.

Maybe one day I'll upload one of my clean recordings...if you can stay
awake long enough to listen to them.

But thanks for the very refreshing feedback.

For what it's worth...I never claimed to be a pro.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

CD, you wanna be my manager?

Well, maybe your producer.

When I used to do piano based stuff and ballads, my voice was out there and it made people want to scream for the exists.

Try a different range. I'd love to be a tenor, but I'm a baritone. Can't be helped. If I try to be a tenor, I'll be a crappy tenor. I can reach up into that range here and there, but it's work, and my voice just doesn't sound as good up there. If I want to sound good, I have to sing in my proper range... and sometimes that means playing in some weird keys.

Go listen to Foreigner. Mick Jones plays in some insanely difficult keys to match Lou Gramm's range. The vocal dictates the key. No matter what might be easy, or what might be convenient, your vocal track is in charge.

You have to accept your limitations. I'll never be able to sing Sondheim's Greenfinch and Linnet Bird properly, and I just have to live with it.

I'd submit some of my ballads but my voice can't pull off stuff that has to have that kind of emotion.

People get too bound up in the technical aspects of emotional vocals. You have to FEEL it. Put yourself in that place. Instead of writing something emotional and then trying to do a technical performance, let yourself feel every inch of it... if you can be in that emotion while you sing the lyrics, it comes out. That's a large part of that "it" factor Simon Cowell talks about on American Idol.

For what it's worth...I never claimed to be a pro.

You ought to be. The song I heard was good. Really, seriously good. But you made the same mistakes every amateur recording artist makes: you pulled your lead guitar out MUCH too loud, emphasised FAR too much of the midrange frequencies, and your voice was much too heavily processed.

Your problems are not musical, they're technical and emotional. You have to get over the reality of your voice. No, it doesn't sound the same as you hear it in your head. Get used to it. And as a musician, you have to accept that not everyone is going to hear that hi-hat slice in bar 12, and that's okay.

There's a trick I use on my vocal performances. Record the performance three times. Pan one hard left, one hard right, and one dead centre. You'll create a big, full sound that smooths out the inconsistencies in your voice a lot more effectively than you can do with a chorus pedal or the TC autotuner. (You do have one of those, right? Most people who are self-conscious about their vocals get one as soon as they can afford it. I sold mine, then figured out how to use it as an effect about a week later and still haven't stopped kicking myself.)

If you want pretty much every singing tip I could ever give you, head over to metalmethod.com and buy the Vocal Power course. I couldn't sing worth crap until I bought that.

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ThomM 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

Okay, now that we've got the Off Topic's Simon Cowell, I guess I'll have to settle for playing Paula Abdul

Frank

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Frank, you don't have the legs for it.

That was the first thought that entered my mind.

Looking forward to hearing your stuff Steve.
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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

your voice was much too heavily processed.

I do process the hell out of it...

There's a trick I use on my vocal performances. Record the performance three times. Pan one hard left, one hard right, and one dead centre. You'll create a big, full sound that smooths out the inconsistencies in your voice a lot more effectively than you can do with a chorus pedal or the TC autotuner.

I actually do this for my background vocals. I triple track them and use
A Digitech Vocalist. With some of my stuff, it sounds like I've got a whole
chorus behind me. But it takes a hell of a lot of work to get that sound.

But for the lead vocals, no, mostly single tracked. Lately, however, I have
been double tracking them but in mono.

I'm going to try your suggestion of panning one hard left and right and
one dead center. I've never done that. We'll see how it sounds. The trick
is making sure I sing each version the same or it's not going to sound right.

That's another problem I have. I'm NOT a singer. My mother, who was an
opera singer and tried to train me just couldn't do it. She said I didn't have
the instrument to begin with to get the big sound I was looking for. I'm
120 pounds soaking wet and have very weak vocal cords. But she did
teach me how to breath properly, which has helped.

Anyway, I'm almost done uploading all the tracks.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I'm going to try your suggestion of panning one hard left and right and one dead center. I've never done that. We'll see how it sounds. The trick is making sure I sing each version the same or it's not going to sound right.

The hard panning actually helps with that. If you can get them all the same, you can pan them less and still get "teh phatness" - but with each take spread wide, any inconsistencies will sound deliberate, like you have backup singers. If you can get it near-identical, put two tracks dead centre, and it will sound like you're a MUCH better singer.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

The hard panning actually helps with that. If you can get them all the same, you can pan them less and still get "teh phatness" - but with each take spread wide, any inconsistencies will sound deliberate, like you have backup singers. If you can get it near-identical, put two tracks dead centre, and it will sound like you're a MUCH better singer.

Okay, they're all up there.

I probably should have also gotten trained professionally as an engineer.

More money to spend.

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CDarklock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I probably should have also gotten trained professionally as an engineer.

Lots of good stuff on JohnVestman.com

I'll try and dig up some more links for you... I have a bookmark file buried in my archives which has a bunch of audio DSP stuff in it, including a truly excellent one-stop article on how to effectively master a "professional" sounding song.

Your voice, or at least what I can hear of it, reminds me of the guy from the Turtles. I'm still going through your songs; it's kind of noisy over here right now, so it's hard to develop a real opinion. Should be quieter in the morning.
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Killer Joe

15 years ago

Hey Steven,

I'll bet John Waite didn't weigh over 120 pounds holding his base but he could belt them out. So can a lot of other singers your size.

I'll bet you could do anything you tried.

YouTube - THE BABYS - Isn't It Time - John Waite

KJ

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

Hey Steven,

I'll bet John Waite didn't weigh over 120 pounds holding his base but he could belt them out. So can a lot of other singers your size.

I'll bet you could do anything you tried.

YouTube - THE BABYS - Isn't It Time - John Waite

KJ

I would love to have a doctor open that man up and take a look at his
voice box. My best mule that it's HUGE. Mine is very small, plus I have
terrible allergies that don't help either.

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Killer Joe 15 years ago

Steven,

What's the model of the mic you're using?
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- Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Killer Joe
  
  Steven,
  
  What's the model of the mic you're using?
  
  A damn expensive one
  
  It's a top of the line AKG I don't know the exact model number off hand.
  
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  Killer Joe 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim
  
  A damn expensive one
  
  It's a top of the line AKG I don't know the exact model number off hand.
  
  Steven,
  
  The reason I was asking was that different mics have different dynamic ranges where they excel at certain frequencies and are mediocre at others.
  
  The specs may show the same ranges, but the sounds are different.
  
  It's sort of like having a tube amp vs a solid state amp.
  
  I liked the ideas CDarklock gave you about overlaying your vocals.
  
  That boy sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
  
  KJ
  
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  Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Killer Joe
  
  That boy sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
  
  KJ
  
  Yes, he does and it's quite obvious.
  
  I'd love to hear some of HIS songs.
  
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Frank Donovan 15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

You are timid. Your singing voice doesn't suck, but you bury it under layers of effects because you know it isn't great.

Okay, now that we've got the Off Topic's Simon Cowell, I guess I'll have to settle for playing Paula Abdul

Frank
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- Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Frank Donovan
  
  Okay, now that we've got the Off Topic's Simon Cowell, I guess I'll have to settle for playing Paula Abdul
  
  Frank
  
  Frank, you don't have the legs for it.
  
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Manda

15 years ago

I only have a very basic understanding of music and audio mixing so don't know if this is much help.

It is always hard to judge ourselves objectively but your voice is not as bad as you think. I found the music being mixed louder than the lyrics irritating and I couldn't understand a lot of the lyrics. I would love to hear these songs again with the instrument volume lowered so you can hear the lyrics properly.

As for my favourites:
1. Rise of Nations is my favourite - I like the more edgy sound and from what I understood of the lyrics, I liked those as well.
2. There Goes Another One - I like this but can't really explain why, I can tell it is going to stick in my mind and I'll start humming it at some completely random moment.
3. Drop Dead Blonde - Again like the edgy sound and I think the vocal range is better suited to your voice.

Least favourite - Can't Rock in Alcatraz - tempo of the song and lyrics doesn't seem to match the subject (too cute).

With Hey Suzy it sounded like your voice was struggling to reach the high notes in places.

CDarklock is right - forget what anyone else thinks (or what you think) and let your obvious passion for the music show through in your singing. We all want to listen to music that makes us feel.

You are definitely good enough to have a shot at the contest!

Manda

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Kurt

15 years ago

Hey Steven,

I also like Rise of Nations best.

But I think it could be better...And my opinions would apply to almost all your songs.

Drop the "lead" guitar. It doesn't add anything. Your raw sound is pretty good and the lead gives me "mixed messages". Same with your voice...It seems your lead and vocals are trying too hard to be purty.

You need to sing with more passion. It seems to me you are afraid to take a chance with your voice. You've basic music is "punkish", but you add a layer of pop to it with the lead and vocals, that detracts from your best stuff.

Try singing Rise of Nations like you mean it...With an aire of anger and a bit of shouting, trying to get people to pay attention to your words. Have a few shots of scotch, smoke a couple of cigars, then set the alarm to wake you up a little early. Now try singing Rise of Nations...You need a little gravel in your voice.

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madison_avenue

15 years ago

At times you sing in a sort of faux punkish rock style, but your voice is too delicate for that style. You need a song choice which emphasizes the vulnerable quality your voice has. It is more of a pop voice rather than rock voice. It's a voice which needs a certain type of song.

I thought Hey suzy was definitely the best song though.

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Liam Hamer

15 years ago

Stephen, I've seen you mention that you are a musician a few times, but didn't realise you bring the rawk :p Seriously though, I don't know why but I imagined you made classical/jazz music. I have been home recording for the last 8 or 9 years or so, and am fortunate enough to have a wife that is not only a fantastic singer, but also writes simple, catchy songs

CDarklock nailed quite a lot of what I thought when I played the songs. You should definitely lay off the effects on your vocals - I used to be over zealous when it came to adding reverb, chorus and such and the end result is that it just makes a vocal sound muddy. I'm not sure if the room you record your vocals in is treated, to be honest it doesn't sound like it. Or perhaps the mic you are using has an affect. Your voice itself is decent, and you sing with some confidence. I just wish I could decipher the lyrics a little better - cleaner sounding vocals would definitely help with this I think.

Your songs seem to often follow the same 'template', namely the following:-

-Dirty guitar intro
-A few lead guitar lines
-Verse/chorus/verse/chorus etc
-Lead guitar solo
-Chorus

etc etc

There's nothing wrong with this(in fact, most of the songs I write and produce follow almost the same format as each other too) but I think you should make sure to try and mix it up a little more, especially with your intros. It's very easy to fall into arrangement and structure habits when writing songs, but this can have a danger of making all songs sounding similar.

Going into the mixing and production again - I'm not a fan of the drum sounds you use. They sound a little too electronic and robotic. I'm not sure what you use, but I highly recommend you invest in a program like EZ Drummer or Jamstix. I use the former, and not only is it super easy to use, it sounds very realistic

Your recorded rhythm guitars sound like they're lacking in air too at times. I'm not sure what you're using to record them, but I think this is something you should definitely look at.

In terms of contests, I personally think your songs presented the way they are here are a little too dated sounding. Now there's nothing wrong with this, but in my experience of contests nearly all the winning songs and entries that do well are both very well produced with crystal clear mixes and also sound very current. Don't let this bother you though, I write and record music that sounds pretty dated, simply because my taste is very much 70's and 80's classic rock orientated. Your songs to me would sound right at home in the early 80's.

OK, all that said(I hope I don't come across as too critical) - you write very catchy songs, with some nice melodies

You definitely know how to write a hook, whether it be a catchy chord progression or a chorus melody. I think you just need to work on bringing the best out of the songs a little more, in terms of production. There's no doubt though - you are a very good songwriter and a talented musician

This thread has sidetracked me from my IM work :p so I'm gonna leave it there, but if you like I can give you a short review/rating for each of the songs you posted. Whatever song you enter into the contest, good luck - but don't take these kind of things too seriously. I used to do this until I realised that the most mainstream, best produced and 'current' songs always came out on top. I enjoy the music I enjoy(both listening and playing wise) and I don't care what anyone else thinks

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Kurt

Drop the "lead" guitar. It doesn't add anything.
Your raw sound is pretty good and the lead gives me "mixed
messages". Same with your voice...It seems your lead and
vocals are trying too hard to be purty.

I've often been told that my songs have mixed messages,
such as hard rock "this" but then the arrangement is pop
or the vocals are something else. This is an interpretation
problem that I have with my writing. I'll hear it one way
and then somebody else will grab a hold of it (the few times
they did) and redo it and it sounds completely different.
Yes, I have a problem with interpretation. Always have. This
is something you develop over time. With some folks, a lot
of time.

You need to sing with more passion. It seems to me
you are afraid to take a chance with your voice. You've
basic music is "punkish", but you add a layer of pop to it
with the lead and vocals, that detracts from your best
stuff.

Well, that's another big problem. It isn't that I'm
afraid to sing with passion. I really don't have much of a
voice. Believe me, I'd love to sing like Paul Rogers (to me
the quintessential rock singer) but I just don't have the
pipes. In other words, my voice is what it is. It's a pop
or even adult contemporary voice. Ballads are my best songs,
vocally, but they bore me to tears and I don't like writing
them. So any ballads I've done, while performance wise
might be better, would never stand a chance in a contest
because the songs suck. I'm being brutally honest about
this. I don't write good ballads.

Try singing Rise of Nations like you mean it...With
an aire of anger and a bit of shouting, trying to get people
to pay attention to your words. Have a few shots of scotch,
smoke a couple of cigars, then set the alarm to wake you up
a little early. Now try singing Rise of Nations...You need a
little gravel in your voice.

Ah, if I could. I used to try to sing like that. I ended up
with nodes on my vocal cords and had to go to therapy for
months. No, no more. I know what my voice can do and can't
do and I have to accept that. Yes, I'd have a much better
shot at all of this if I just wrote the songs and hired
musicians and singers to perform them. I just don't have
that kind of money. At least not for a song contest. I had a
track done years ago that back THEN cost me $3,000. I don't
even want to know what it would cost me today.

Bottom line...I'm it. I do the best I can with what I have
to work with.

Dale

GET THAT G** DAM DRUMMER OUT OF THERE!!!!!

Actually, that's not a drummer and it's not a drum machine
either. It's me playing keyboard drums live. Not an easy
thing to do unless you ARE a drummer. And even then, you
don't have the same versatility. I used to play drums years
ago and was very good. But I no longer have a drum set and
don't plan on getting one. So I make do with what I have.
Yeah, it's hard getting a great drum part down with a
keyboard.

As for investing in a drum machine, I don't like them. I
think they sound too mechanical. If you listen to the drum
tracks in my songs, wimpy as they may be, they're not
mechanical. Just not very good. I try to keep it pretty
simple so as not to detract from the song. In fact, in some
songs, they're mixed down pretty low. I'm surprised you
can even hear them. Yeah, drums are a weakness...no
question. Again, can't afford to hire musicians and not
going out to spend 3K on a drum set. Besides, I have nowhere
in the studio to put it.

Madison_Avenue

At times you sing in a sort of faux punkish rock
style, but your voice is too delicate for that style. You
need a song choice which emphasizes the vulnerable quality
your voice has. It is more of a pop voice rather than rock
voice. It's a voice which needs a certain type of song.

You hit on such a key thing here. That is one of my biggest
problems. I can't sing the kind of songs that I like to
write. I just can't. I don't have the voice. You can't
get blood out of a stone and you can't drag Paul Rogers out
of my throat. Believe me, if I could, I would. So yeah,
people hear my songs and the first thing they say is, "That
singer has to go!" Of course he does. I'm not a
singer...I'm a songwriter. Ever hear Burt Bacharach sing?
He's awful. But man, if I could write like him.

Anyway, yeah, the singing doesn't fit...period.

Fernando

Die for you: Great track. Some issues with
"tempo" at the beginning but a great tune. I can imagine
it in one FUELTV show with some sick waves 6 foot surf.

I have an issue with tempo...period. I am not a great
musician by any stretch of the imagination. This all goes
back to what I said about getting other people to record my
stuff...I can't afford it. So I have to make do with what I
have.

Crubalo

Your songs seem to often follow the same
'template', namely the following:-

-Dirty guitar intro -A few lead guitar lines
-Verse/chorus/verse/chorus etc -Lead guitar solo -Chorus

etc etc

There's nothing wrong with this(in fact, most of the songs
I write and produce follow almost the same format as each
other too) but I think you should make sure to try and mix
it up a little more, especially with your intros. It's very
easy to fall into arrangement and structure habits when
writing songs, but this can have a danger of making all
songs sounding similar.

Yes, this group of songs are very similar for a reason.
They're the best ones I've done, at least I think. Believe
me, I have written so many different styles of
songs...you'd be stunned at some of the structures. I've
even done free form where the song has no structure at all.
But I'm submitting what I "think" will sell. And therein
lies another rub that you actually bring up below.

In terms of contests, I personally think your songs
presented the way they are here are a little too dated
sounding. Now there's nothing wrong with this, but in my
experience of contests nearly all the winning songs and
entries that do well are both very well produced with
crystal clear mixes and also sound very current. Don't let
this bother you though, I write and record music that sounds
pretty dated, simply because my taste is very much 70's and
80's classic rock orientated. Your songs to me would sound
right at home in the early 80's.

This may have been the most important comment in this whole
thread, at least IMO. I have been told that I should have
been around and writing in the 60s. I would have made a
fortune. I am a product of the British invasion and 60s
music. I also loved the prog rock sound of the 70s, though
I'd never consider submitting any of my prog rock tunes.
Yes, I have them...tons of them. I write what I feel. In
other words, I am true to who I am. And who I am is NOT a
product of today. So yes, this is going to be a HUGE factor.
My stuff sounds dated because I'M dated. It's like asking
Chuck Berry to do Elektronika. I don't think you'd want to
hear what it would sound like.

Big problem...Solution? I have none

I am what I am.

Okay, so having read all the comments (and thanks to all of
you) it appears that my main problems are the following:

Vocals too processed. Voice doesn't fit song Performance
itself in several areas, lacking. Particularly drums and
lead guitar

Okay, given that the contest site states the following:

Will my song be judged on the quality of my demo?

The Great American Song Contest is all about the songwriting. GASC
Judges focus on the actual song -- the lyrics and melody --
NOT the production, performance or quality of the recording.

Do you think that in spite of the deficiencies in the
recording that these songs have a chance based on the merits
of the song itself?

Or...and I know this is quite possible having been in this
business for so long...are these guys just blowing smoke so
that you'll submit your crappy demo and THEN when they hear
a "bad" demo, they toss it in the trash heap, sending you
back a lame critique "lyrics weak" or whatever?

I know it's possible. I have no illusions about this
miserable business. Been in it too long, done too much and
seen too much.

Anyway, thank you all for your feedback. It means more to me
than you could possibly know

Thanks
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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Ah, if I could. I used to try to sing like that. I ended up
with nodes on my vocal cords and had to go to therapy for
months. No, no more. I know what my voice can do and can't
do and I have to accept that.

Try this one. You know that "crunch" distortion you use on your guitar? Plug your mic into it. Push your drive way up so it clips like hell. Then lower the master volume on the track. Gives you a really aggressive-sounding voice, without stressing the vocal chords. Effects can be useful things.

As for investing in a drum machine, I don't like them. I
think they sound too mechanical. If you listen to the drum
tracks in my songs, wimpy as they may be, they're not
mechanical.

Run them through a 3/8 delay with the feedback up around 60-75% and you'll be surprised how a weak drum track fattens up and gives you the funk.

In other words, I am true to who I am. And who I am is NOT a
product of today. So yes, this is going to be a HUGE factor. My stuff sounds dated because I'M dated.

It's actually refreshing and nostalgic, at least for me. There's something to be said for the old styles, and it really tends to be cyclic... we're about due for a return to the older musical styles, so that really works in your favour.

Thanks

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Fernando Veloso

15 years ago

Hey Steve,

Worked as a radio DJ almost 20 years including 6-7 years as a Rock radio dj, so here's what I really think about your tracks:

Die for you: Great track. Some issues with "tempo" at the beginning but a great tune. I can imagine it in one FUELTV show with some sick waves 6 foot surf.

Drop Dead Blonde: Great tune again. Great hook.

You should record a solid 4 trax demo and send it over to some producers. Take a shot.

P.S.: Some of your tracks could easily get into a surf/skate/bmx movie soundtrack.
P.P.S.: Drop Dead Blonde has definitely great hooks. Nice!!

[ 1 ] Thanks

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Daleron is right - you need more feeling in your playing. Your solos are very teenage, very sixties. It's like you're afraid to play across the strings.

If you'll pardon the presumption, I assume you can read tablature; play around with this one - it's a pretty simple A minor pentatonic riff in the style of David Gilmour or Jimmy Page, so it's got the vintage feel you want, but it goes all the way across the strings. It starts out with a C major feel, but modulates down to A minor as it goes.

Code:

 
E--------8-5-------5----------------------------------------
B------8-----8-5-----8-5------------------------------------
G--5-7-----------7-------7-5---7-5--------------------------
D----------------------------7-----7-5-7-5------------------
A------------------------------------------7-5-3-5-3--------
E-----------------------------------------------------5-3-5/

If you mess around with this and improvise around the general idea of it, you should be able to come up with some of your own leads in the process. Try holding a note here and there, add some bends, let the music flow. Your tempo frequently feels too low, like you're holding back when you'd really rather go a little faster.

You know, you don't have to start with anything approximating your intended final sound. You can play the basic chord progression on bass or piano, then layer and overdub and throw entire tracks away as you go. Think of it like scuplture... you throw a few blocks together, then carve and refine each of them until it's the exact shape you want. It took me a long time to learn that.

Crubalo is spot-on in his criticism of your drum sounds, but that's a retro feel IMO... which seems sort of what you're looking for anyway. You've got no bottom, which is going to put off a lot of judges; work on adding some more bass. Doesn't have to boom, but fill it out a little.

And in a pretty strange dissent, I find Panic At The Disco to be the best of the bunch. The rest of them just sound too similar, too formulaic. PatD sounds like you actually had some fun with it, and the vocal processing sounds more ironic than out-of-place.

Thanks
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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

CDarklock

Daleron is right - you need more feeling in your playing. Your solos are very teenage, very sixties. It's like you're afraid to play across the strings.

My solos ARE 60s.

Read my above post and a lot of this will all make
sense to you.

If you'll pardon the presumption, I assume you can read tablature; play around with this one - it's a pretty simple A minor pentatonic riff in the style of David Gilmour or Jimmy Page, so it's got the vintage feel you want, but it goes all the way across the strings. It starts out with a C major feel, but modulates down to A minor as it goes.

Yes, I can read tabs but I'm a so-so guitarist. I can't play very fast at all
and just to get out what I do get out, it takes me MANY takes. Having
a broken finger on my left hand that I can't use anymore doesn't help.

As I said in my above post, I'm a so-so musician at best.

Code:

 
E--------8-5-------5----------------------------------------
B------8-----8-5-----8-5------------------------------------
G--5-7-----------7-------7-5---7-5--------------------------
D----------------------------7-----7-5-7-5------------------
A------------------------------------------7-5-3-5-3--------
E-----------------------------------------------------5-3-5/

If you mess around with this and improvise around the general idea of it, you should be able to come up with some of your own leads in the process. Try holding a note here and there, add some bends, let the music flow. Your tempo frequently feels too low, like you're holding back when you'd really rather go a little faster.

Thanks, I'll look this over.

You know, you don't have to start with anything approximating your intended final sound. You can play the basic chord progression on bass or piano, then layer and overdub and throw entire tracks away as you go. Think of it like scuplture... you throw a few blocks together, then carve and refine each of them until it's the exact shape you want. It took me a long time to learn that.

That's pretty much how I do record my songs. I never know where they're
going to end up. And this all has to do with interpretation. What I "hear"
as being "appropriate" most people say, "What were you thinking?"

It's how my mind works...such as it is.

Crubalo is spot-on in his criticism of your drum sounds, but that's a retro feel IMO... which seems sort of what you're looking for anyway. You've got no bottom, which is going to put off a lot of judges; work on adding some more bass. Doesn't have to boom, but fill it out a little.

Read my remarks on the drums in the above post. Yeah, not my best
strength.

And in a pretty strange dissent, I find Panic At The Disco to be the best of the bunch. The rest of them just sound too similar, too formulaic. PatD sounds like you actually had some fun with it, and the vocal processing sounds more ironic than out-of-place.

That song was actually recorded a little differently than the others. I took
my Roland Digital Sequencer and programmed a ridiculously fast drum
track BPM 250. I then just let the beat dictate the song. The guitar part
on that, which isn't a guitar at all, is a keyboard synth guitar sound played
at one quarter speed real time and then sped up. I could never play that
lead for real. Not in a million years.

My friend Paul, when he came over to hear my latest CD, said that Panic
was my best tune ever. Others have agreed as well. Personally, I think
that lyrically, it's solid and my 2nd favorite of my tunes overall. I won't
tell you my favorite because you'll laugh.

Panic I'm definitely submitting because it's probably the best song I've
done, performance wise.

We'll see.

Thanks
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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Yes, I can read tabs but I'm a so-so guitarist. I can't play very fast at all and just to get out what I do get out, it takes me MANY takes.

It's not so much about raw speed, but coordinating your fretboard and pick hands. If you pick an open string, hammer on the third fret with your ring finger (index on the first fret), slide up to the fifth fret, then pull off to the index on the third fret... you can play four notes in one pick motion. Pull off to the open string again, and you can trill that sequence over and over without using the pick. Start VERY slow, work it up, and you'll be surprised how quickly you start to sound a LOT faster than you're really playing.

Curt Mitchell re-released Fretboard Physics on DVD not so long ago... you might want to give it a look: http://www.music123.com/MVP-Fretboar...97472.Music123

In other news, I've got a guitar instruction membership site in the works... was planning on rolling it out in a couple weeks, but I might not get to it by then. Then again, I might. No telling.

Having a broken finger on my left hand that I can't use anymore doesn't help.

Ever hear of Django Reinhardt?

I've been a left-handed guitarist for about a quarter of a century. Two years ago, I shattered my right hand. Fretboard hand. Partial split down two carpals, complete split on the ring and pinky metacarpals. I can still sort of play, but it hurts, and my fingers just don't always do what I want them to do. There's serious nerve and tendon damage that has never healed, and probably never will.

But there's this thing called a right-handed guitar... and I'm working on it. It's given me a chance to "unlearn" some of my bad habits, and while I'm frustrated as hell by having music in my head that just won't come out through my fingers, I'm also seeing real potential that I'll end up a much better guitarist. It's just that my brain keeps telling my hands "hey, play this," and they don't know how... because they're the wrong hands.

My friend Paul, when he came over to hear my latest CD, said that Panic was my best tune ever. Others have agreed as well. Personally, I think that lyrically, it's solid and my 2nd favorite of my tunes overall. I won't tell you my favorite because you'll laugh.

I suspect it's "Can't Rock in Alcatraz." I don't know why, but that one feels like you really enjoyed it.

Thanks
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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

It's not so much about raw speed, but coordinating your fretboard and pick hands. If you pick an open string, hammer on the third fret with your ring finger (index on the first fret), slide up to the fifth fret, then pull off to the index on the third fret... you can play four notes in one pick motion. Pull off to the open string again, and you can trill that sequence over and over without using the pick. Start VERY slow, work it up, and you'll be surprised how quickly you start to sound a LOT faster than you're really playing.

Curt Mitchell re-released Fretboard Physics on DVD not so long ago... you might want to give it a look: http://www.music123.com/MVP-Fretboar...97472.Music123

In other news, I've got a guitar instruction membership site in the works... was planning on rolling it out in a couple weeks, but I might not get to it by then. Then again, I might. No telling.

Ever hear of Django Reinhardt?

I've been a left-handed guitarist for about a quarter of a century. Two years ago, I shattered my right hand. Fretboard hand. Partial split down two carpals, complete split on the ring and pinky metacarpals. I can still sort of play, but it hurts, and my fingers just don't always do what I want them to do. There's serious nerve and tendon damage that has never healed, and probably never will.

But there's this thing called a right-handed guitar... and I'm working on it. It's given me a chance to "unlearn" some of my bad habits, and while I'm frustrated as hell by having music in my head that just won't come out through my fingers, I'm also seeing real potential that I'll end up a much better guitarist. It's just that my brain keeps telling my hands "hey, play this," and they don't know how... because they're the wrong hands.

I suspect it's "Can't Rock in Alcatraz." I don't know why, but that one feels like you really enjoyed it.

You know, it's too bad you live all the way across the country. With
your smarts, we could probably get together and churn out some really
good sounding demos.

Oh well.

Thanks
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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

You know, it's too bad you live all the way across the country. With your smarts, we could probably get together and churn out some really good sounding demos.

Cross-country collaboration isn't unheard of these days. Probably not the sort of thing you're looking to create (and we never did finish it), but this was done between Seattle and New York City:

http://www.darklock.com/darksound/rain.mp3

And, on the other hand... I've been thinking for the last couple years that I really miss New England. So I may not be all the way over here forever; we've discussed a move to Salem, Massachusetts, and I've also given serious thought to Maryland so I can attend GMU and get a four-year Economics degree.

Thanks

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Code:

 
E--------8-5-------5----------------------------------------
B------8-----8-5-----8-5------------------------------------
G--5-7-----------7-------7-5---7-5--------------------------
D----------------------------7-----7-5-7-5------------------
A------------------------------------------7-5-3-5-3--------
E-----------------------------------------------------5-3-5/

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for this.

I sat down with acoustic and started playing this right off the PC
screen.

Probably inspired one of the best songs I'm ever going to do.

Problem is, the melody (already have the whole thing in my head) is
slightly out of my vocal range on a bad day. It hits a G above middle C,
which, on a good day, I can hit. Today...no way. I guess I can wait
until my voice is stronger but those good days are few and far between.
Oh a great day, I can hit an A.

But where I am stuck...as always...is how to arrange this thing. I don't
know what sound to go for. This could fit in so many different genres.
Yes, it's generic enough (but catchy) that it could fit rock, punk, pop
and a whole lotta other things.

And this is where I usually mess up. The interpretation just doesn't "mesh"
with what people expect. And that's my 60s "battling with my 70s, 80s
and 90s" mind doing it's psycho dance. Heck, I once turned "I Could Have
Danced All Night" from My Fair Lady into a rock tune...don't ask.

Anyway, thanks for the tabs. They definitely sparked something.

Thanks
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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for this.

Isn't it great?! It's easy to play, but sounds AMAZING. The cool part is how all the individual bits and pieces are patterns that serve well in all sorts of improvisation. It's like almost every critical skill of a guitar solo thrown together into one little four-second block. The other really good one I've got is just a dead-simple pattern: flat-five interval with a bend, followed by a perfect fourth a whole-step below.

-6-3-
-5-3-

This is my "cheat riff." If you catch yourself way outside the key you're supposed to be playing in, hit this little piece, and you can jump right back in key. Nobody will notice. The dissonance of the flat-five destroys the scale expectation, then you drop down into the perfect fourth to re-establish harmony in the right key.

I stole it from Angus Young. It's part of his solo on Back in Black.

Heck, I once turned "I Could Have Danced All Night" from My Fair Lady into a rock tune...don't ask.

My punk band in the 80s used to do a heavy-metal version of Copacabana. And lurking in my list of "things I'm going to record someday," there's a disco arrangement of Ready to Take a Chance Again... yeah, I like my Barry Manilow. He's underappreciated.

Thanks
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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Isn't it great?! It's easy to play, but sounds AMAZING. The cool part is how all the individual bits and pieces are patterns that serve well in all sorts of improvisation. It's like almost every critical skill of a guitar solo thrown together into one little four-second block. The other really good one I've got is just a dead-simple pattern: flat-five interval with a bend, followed by a perfect fourth a whole-step below.

-6-3-
-5-3-

This is my "cheat riff." If you catch yourself way outside the key you're supposed to be playing in, hit this little piece, and you can jump right back in key. Nobody will notice. The dissonance of the flat-five destroys the scale expectation, then you drop down into the perfect fourth to re-establish harmony in the right key.

I stole it from Angus Young. It's part of his solo on Back in Black.

My punk band in the 80s used to do a heavy-metal version of Copacabana. And lurking in my list of "things I'm going to record someday," there's a disco arrangement of Ready to Take a Chance Again... yeah, I like my Barry Manilow. He's underappreciated.

Now see, THAT'S music I really love to write but sound so horrible
trying to sing.

Barry Manilow, for a long time, was my favorite.

Some of my favorite tunes of his off the top of my head.

I Write The Songs
Trying To Get The Feeling Again
I Made It Through The Rain
Somewhere Down The Road
If I Should Love Again

If I tried to sing any of these, I'd be laughed out of the building.

See, that's my problem. Ballads like these are where my heart REALLY
is. Okay, a little bubble gum too, but this stuff really moves me.

But sing it? Not if you put a gun to my head.

So I just don't write this stuff anymore.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I Write The Songs
Trying To Get The Feeling Again
I Made It Through The Rain
Somewhere Down The Road
If I Should Love Again

I completely agree on the top three; I'd prefer Old Songs and Even Now for the last two. Oh, and Somewhere in the Night belongs in there.

See, that's my problem. Ballads like these are where my heart REALLY is. Okay, a little bubble gum too, but this stuff really moves me.

But sing it? Not if you put a gun to my head.

Just hire a singer. How hard is that? Besides, ballads frequently enjoy more success when sung by a woman.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I completely agree on the top three; I'd prefer Old Songs and Even Now for the last two. Oh, and Somewhere in the Night belongs in there.

Just hire a singer. How hard is that? Besides, ballads frequently enjoy more success when sung by a woman.

Hire a singer? Okay, who's gonna pay the bill?

These people don't work cheap.

Yeah, I know...you get what you pay for and if you want something
done right (just like with sales letters) you hire a pro.

Well, see, that's where (as a hobby) I can't go around throwing thousands
of bucks around for demos. My wife would have me sleeping on the street.

Forget the couch. I'll be lucky if I end up there.

No, gotta do this with what I have...me.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Hire a singer? Okay, who's gonna pay the bill?

These people don't work cheap.

Really depends on where you look. There are a lot of really impressive singers out there who would be happy to do something like this for very little money, just because they love the idea of being on a "real" song. They're not hard to find if you just hang around the right places - rock concerts, nightclubs, and music stores are good for it.

Of course, maybe at your age, you don't hang around places like that anymore... and at mine, I probably shouldn't.

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Killer Joe

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Really depends on where you look. There are a lot of really impressive singers out there who would be happy to do something like this for very little money, just because they love the idea of being on a "real" song. They're not hard to find if you just hang around the right places - rock concerts, nightclubs, and music stores are good for it.

This is sooo true. When I lived in LA you could walk into any Karaoke bar and see singer after singer that get up and knock the house down with there vocal ranges and talent.

A lot of clammers in the bunch as well

But the point is, these folks would be incredibly flattered to be singled out to lay down a few tracks on your demos just for the recognition. Heck, they get up on stage every night waiting for the opportunity to be discovered, and they even have to buy their own drinks.

There is no shortage of talent.

KJ

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Frank Donovan

15 years ago

Hi Steven

Wow. There's been some great feedback and advice in this thread

Based on what's been said and your responses, I'm thinking we're going to have to go with pretty much what you've got already.

With that in mind... to my ears, the number that was the most instantly "catchy" was "Hey Suzy" - but it's really twice as long as it should be.

With a song like that, you've said everything you're going to say after 2 minutes. Any longer and it only dilutes the impact.

So, with that caveat, it gets my vote.

BTW, you know that there's a band called "Panic At The Disco", don't you?

YouTube - Panic! At The Disco - Time To Dance

Frank

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

Hi Steven

Wow. There's been some great feedback and advice in this thread

Based on what's been said and your responses, I'm thinking we're going to have to go with pretty much what you've got already.

With that in mind... to my ears, the number that was the most instantly "catchy" was "Hey Suzy" - but it's really twice as long as it should be.

With a song like that, you've said everything you're going to say after 2 minutes. Any longer and it only dilutes the impact.

So, with that caveat, it gets my vote.

BTW, you know that there's a band called "Panic At The Disco", don't you?

YouTube - Panic! At The Disco - Time To Dance

Frank

Thanks Frank. Yes, the song was inspired from the group name itself. I
was actually thinking of contacting them and asking them if they'd
be interested in doing it. I still might.

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

Steve, your problem is not your voice or your playing or your songwriting. Look at what I picked up from just ONE of your posts in this thread:

Tina

So what are you suggesting, that my problem is confidence?

I like to think that I can objectively look at what I do and not be like
these folks who go running into agents screaming, "Hey man, you gotta
hear this great song" and it sucks.

True story.

I had an interview with the guy who discovered Irwin Levine and L
Russell Brown. Look them up.

It was a group interview. Everybody there played or performed their
best "songs".

One girl got up and started singing this, hell, I don't know what it was
but it was God awful.

She thought it was the best thing in the whole world. She just spit
confidence all over the place.

After she left, this guy (who was a close personal friend of my mother
which is how I got the interview in the first place) said to me and my
friend, "God that was awful."

You can have all the confidence in the world, but you better damn well
know what you can and can't do well otherwise you are going to be in
for a world of hurt and disappointment.

I do NOT have a great singing voice. Ask any vocal coach in the world
and they'll tell you that.

I am NOT a great musician (keyboard player, guitarist, etc.) Ask anybody
who is and they'll tell you that.

As a songwriter, I think my melodies (when I really put my mind to it) can
stack up to any of the crap that's on the radio today, but my lyrics are
weak. I know that. I know what it takes to write a great lyric but my
mind doesn't work that way.

I have collaborated with lyricists before trying to find a good one.

All the ones I worked with...worse than me.

Writing lyrics is THE one thing that will make or break a hit song as far
as the music publishers are concerned. Trust me, I know this from
personal experience. Every song that I've submitted that was rejected
was BECAUSE of the lyrics. Unless these people are flat out lying to me,
I have no reason to believe otherwise.

When I met Steve Zuckerman (the guy who discovered Bon Jovi) I'll
never forget what he said to me.

He said "Steve, everybody and their grandmother thinks they can write
a song because they can. It's not hard. What's hard is writing a GREAT
song and I just don't hear a GREAT song here. You have talent, for sure.
But you have a long way to go, ESPECIALLY on your lyrics."

The year was 1994. I'd been writing for 10 years.

In the 15 years since, my lyrics have improved, somewhat. But they
don't stack up to the great songs of our generation.

That is not being not confident in myself. It is seeing my abilities and
what I've done for what it is.

Will I someday break through that barrier and become a great songwriter?

Possibly.

Am I now?

Until Walter Gollander or Steve Zuckerman or somebody else of authority
says so, it doesn't matter what I think of my writing and/or performance.

They will ultimately have the final say as to whether any of my tunes
make it into the cutting room.

It has nothing to do with confidence.

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

I know what you like to think but honestly, very few people truly can look at themselves that objectively. I think you are judging yourself too harshly. Look at all the people in this thread who said they like your voice or your music or your lyrics - isn't that the point of good music?

And you know what? Even if you think your voice is only so-so, what the hell? Let it shine out anyway. The worst thing that could happen is someone won't like it - so what? You might be surprised at the reaction.

Personally, I do think your voice is perfect for the 60-70ish folk rock ballady type stuff. I happen to like that type of voice. Will everyone? Nope. So cater to the audience that does like what your strong at instead of trying to please an audience that doesn't appreciate it.

I'm not sure that I expressed that the way I wanted but I hope you see what I am trying to say.

Tina

Tina, thanks. I did get what you meant and appreciate it. And no, you
can't please everybody. Some people I know think the Beatles suck. Go
figure.

But, I can be very objective about myself. It comes from years and years
of listening to music. When I hear something good, something I like, I can
immediately say, "That's what I should be sounding like" and I don't. I've
done some stuff that isn't far off the mark. Don't get me wrong. I don't
suck, but on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being minimal acceptable standard for
a professional) I'd say at my best, I'm an 8. And that might actually be
a little generous. Normally, I'd say I'm between a 6 and a 7.

Compared to some folks who can't carry a tune or play chopsticks, that
ain't too bad.

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Fernando Veloso

15 years ago

Steve, if the rules go by the lyrics and melody you have some good tunes in there to enter the contest.

As a radio DJ i would play at least 2 of them with a smile on my face knowing my listeners will digg them while driving or working.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso

Steve, if the rules go by the lyrics and melody you have some good tunes in there to enter the contest.

As a radio DJ i would play at least 2 of them with a smile on my face knowing my listeners will digg them while driving or working.

Question, are you DJing on the radio today? If so, I can send you a copy
of anything you like and maybe you can sneak them on the air.

I know some stations don't allow that, but a lot of the college stations will
play anything.

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Fernando Veloso

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Question, are you DJing on the radio today? If so, I can send you a copy
of anything you like and maybe you can sneak them on the air.

I know some stations don't allow that, but a lot of the college stations will
play anything.

Not anymore Steve, i quit my Radio job in 2004.

One of the reasons was the "plastic skin" 95% of the radios have today: dj's strictly follow a **** playlist and they talk like a monkey.

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KimW

15 years ago

"I suspect it's "Can't Rock in Alcatraz." I don't know why, but that one feels like you really enjoyed it."

I'm thinking it's Hey Suzy.

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Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

"I suspect it's "Can't Rock in Alcatraz." I don't know why, but that one feels like you really enjoyed it."

I'm thinking it's Hey Suzy.

Wow Kim...you are good.

Yes, that's my personal favorite. What ever made you think that?
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- KimW 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim
  
  Wow Kim...you are good.
  
  Yes, that's my personal favorite. What ever made you think that?
  
  I'm Majik! ( actually, thats a bad joke since before I had my name changed to KimW it was majik)
  
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KimW

15 years ago

I agree with both CD and Tina, your voice is ok for some of your stuff, but you might want to try a professional singer.honestly, there are a lot of people that have made it that relaly don't have a singing voice, but their intensity and emotion comes through so you forget about the actual voice.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Steven, it's not about confidence. It's about awareness.

Most people suck. They're not good at anything, and they never will be.

You don't suck. You're not most people.

That doesn't make you great, but if you come into someone and say "hey, this is pretty good... it's not great, but it's pretty good" - well, they're not going to stomp all over you, because you're probably right.

There is a VAST difference between the peculiar brand of insanity where people who suck think they're great, and your own situation - where you're not great, and you know it, but you simply don't seem to have figured out that being great is the end destination of a journey through being not great.

You seem to expect that one day, you'll look at your work and say "hey, this is great!" - but that's not going to happen. You will ALWAYS want more than you can deliver. That's the curse of being an artist. When you're good enough to compare yourself to one band, you'll start comparing yourself to another one.

Ten years ago, I couldn't sing. Today, I don't suck. That's a massive accomplishment. But if I sat around saying "I know my limitations, and that's all there is to it" - I would be sitting here today knowing I couldn't sing. Limitations exist to be transcended. Be proud of what you've done, even if you're not world-class.

Do you know what world-class takes? Seven years. You drop everything else in your life and do one thing for seven years, you'll be world-class. And - correct me if I'm wrong - but isn't that exactly what you did with article marketing? Drop everything and do only that for several years?

You can do that with anything. Anything. If you really want it, just drop everything else and do that for seven years. And if you can't... well, you won't be world class. Be okay with that. Hardly anyone is world class. There's no shame in not being world-class.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Steven, it's not about confidence. It's about awareness.

Most people suck. They're not good at anything, and they never will be.

You don't suck. You're not most people.

That doesn't make you great, but if you come into someone and say "hey, this is pretty good... it's not great, but it's pretty good" - well, they're not going to stomp all over you, because you're probably right.

There is a VAST difference between the peculiar brand of insanity where people who suck think they're great, and your own situation - where you're not great, and you know it, but you simply don't seem to have figured out that being great is the end destination of a journey through being not great.

You seem to expect that one day, you'll look at your work and say "hey, this is great!" - but that's not going to happen. You will ALWAYS want more than you can deliver. That's the curse of being an artist. When you're good enough to compare yourself to one band, you'll start comparing yourself to another one.

Ten years ago, I couldn't sing. Today, I don't suck. That's a massive accomplishment. But if I sat around saying "I know my limitations, and that's all there is to it" - I would be sitting here today knowing I couldn't sing. Limitations exist to be transcended. Be proud of what you've done, even if you're not world-class.

Do you know what world-class takes? Seven years. You drop everything else in your life and do one thing for seven years, you'll be world-class. And - correct me if I'm wrong - but isn't that exactly what you did with article marketing? Drop everything and do only that for several years?

You can do that with anything. Anything. If you really want it, just drop everything else and do that for seven years. And if you can't... well, you won't be world class. Be okay with that. Hardly anyone is world class. There's no shame in not being world-class.

I wish you could see the big smile on my face after reading this. You are
so dead on the mark with this that it's not funny. Actually, it is funny.

Yes, this about sums it up. In my eyes, I'll probably never be good enough
until I seriously sit down (just like I did with article marketing) and do
nothing BUT this. And that means studying composition, examining other
songs in excruciating detail, practicing 8 hours a day, studying home
studio engineering until I can get any kind of sound I want, and so on.

Believe me, I know. My mother practiced piano from age 3, 10 hours a day.

She became a concert pianist.

Believe me, I know what it takes.

Considering that until 2008, I hadn't gone near a keyboard or guitar in
over 5 years (all these songs were written in the past year) I'd say that's
something. I thought I had lost it altogether until I sat down and started
to play again.

That was the result of the 20 years prior.

Yeah...I know what it takes.

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

CD, you said what I was trying to say only much more eloquently.

And, Steve, especially when you're an 8 but even when you're only a 7, that's still better than the large number of 4s who still manage to get on the radio these days.

And far better than my just barely a 1...lol.

Tina

Thanks for the kind words, but as for the 4s making it to the radio, I don't
know. Yeah, I hear a lot of stuff that I scratch my head over. But there
must be something there. Maybe it's a beat or a hook or maybe it's the
singer. Or maybe it's just the big record companies forcing radio stations
to play this crap.

I honestly don't know.

But this is what I do know.

When I hear REALLY good musicians (too many to name) I just have to
smile and give a bit of a sigh wondering if I'll ever be that good.

But as CD said, that's the curse of being who I am.

I'll never be good enough for me.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I wish you could see the big smile on my face after reading this. You are so dead on the mark with this that it's not funny. Actually, it is funny.

Well, we're a lot alike, in case you hadn't noticed.

My musical life is a constant string of being not quite good enough. Milton said it best; "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, else what's a heaven for?" - it's not that I'm incapable or incompetent, it's that what I am is just never quite what I want. I can't play what I want to play. I can't do what I want to do. The sound in my head just won't come out of the speakers.

Remember Twisted Sister? Their big album was Stay Hungry. Go check out their newer album, Still Hungry... it's the same album. They just went back into the studio and did the album the way they wished they could have done it the first time.

Sure, you're not ready yet, you're not good enough, it's not perfect. Take action anyway. Just like you're doing with this songwriting contest.

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Instructor

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Well, we're a lot alike, in case you hadn't noticed.

My musical life is a constant string of being not quite good enough. Milton said it best; "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, else what's a heaven for?" - it's not that I'm incapable or incompetent, it's that what I am is just never quite what I want. I can't play what I want to play. I can't do what I want to do. The sound in my head just won't come out of the speakers.

Remember Twisted Sister? Their big album was Stay Hungry. Go check out their newer album, Still Hungry... it's the same album. They just went back into the studio and did the album the way they wished they could have done it the first time.

Sure, you're not ready yet, you're not good enough, it's not perfect. Take action anyway. Just like you're doing with this songwriting contest.

Congrats on 1000 posts!...Now you know its time to give back

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Well, we're a lot alike, in case you hadn't noticed.

My musical life is a constant string of being not quite good enough. Milton said it best; "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, else what's a heaven for?" - it's not that I'm incapable or incompetent, it's that what I am is just never quite what I want. I can't play what I want to play. I can't do what I want to do. The sound in my head just won't come out of the speakers.

Remember Twisted Sister? Their big album was Stay Hungry. Go check out their newer album, Still Hungry... it's the same album. They just went back into the studio and did the album the way they wished they could have done it the first time.

Sure, you're not ready yet, you're not good enough, it's not perfect. Take action anyway. Just like you're doing with this songwriting contest.

Well, now I really don't know how to thank you. I just finished laying down
the basic tracks for my next tune.

I'm mixing down everything. The vocals WILL be heard and the lead
guitar won't be so gosh darn ear piercing. In fact, it will blend in nicely.

The music is by far the catchiest thing I've ever done.

I'm going to sing it with everything I have if it kills me.

The only thing I have to hope for is that I don't screw up the lyrics.
Quite honestly, I don't even know what to put to this tune yet, but it
has to be the best lyrics I've ever written because this song deserves the
best.

And it all came about because of a little 4 second tab notation.

Go figure.

I owe you...big time.

PM me your PayPal address when you get a chance.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

The music is by far the catchiest thing I've ever done.

Can't wait to hear it.

And it all came about because of a little 4 second tab notation.

You know what really kicked me in the arse about my music?

In 2003, I got a PM on another forum asking me if I was a "fan" too.

The person sending it, I discovered, had bought a pirate CD of my music from a street vendor in Thailand. He sent me a few MP3 rips. Yep... that was me, all right. It was all the old crap I didn't think was worth promoting.

Apparently, I'm known in Eastern Europe, too. I've met some of my Czech, Polish, and Ukrainian fans. It blows my mind. Somewhere along the road, without even trying, I became an underground artist.

And I just went, I have... fans? Like, real fans? People with my stuff on their iPods, who listen to it frequently? Who play it at parties?

What... the... hell.

I don't beat myself up about my music anymore. I have fans. So do you.

PM me your PayPal address when you get a chance.

Take a look at my title.

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

Steve, I hope you will post it here when you're finished so we can all listen to it. I'd love to hear something that focuses more on your voice - I happen to like it...lol.

Tina

I'm gonna have to burn a CD to do it. Long story. The digital recorder I
have presses songs in a weird format. You can't play them on a regular
CD player. So you have to finalize the CD. After you do that, you can't
put anything else on it. So what I do is I write and record 16 songs, put
them all on one CD and then burn it. This song will be number 9 since my
last CD, so what I'll have to do is just take a crap CD from somewhere,
burn it, put the one song on it and then transport it to the PC. I don't mind
doing it once in a while, but don't want to make a habit of it or I'll go through
CDs like water.

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Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago

Okay, I knew this was going to happen.

I am absolutely stuck for a lyric for this tune.

Does anybody know how to reach Bernie Taupin?

PS - Did I mention that I hate writing lyrics?
PPS - Did I mention that I suck at writing lyrics?
PPPS - Did I mention that I REALLY suck at writing lyrics?
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- CDarklock 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim
  
  Does anybody know how to reach Bernie Taupin?
  
  I think Elton has his number.
  
  What format does your digital recorder produce? I may actually have something that reads/plays it.
  
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KimW

15 years ago

I still think Drop Dead Blonde is the most commercial and could be a hit in todays market.

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HeySal

15 years ago

Steve. I know nothing about music except what I like. I can't tell you anything in techinical terms -- all I can do is be an audience.

This is my take:
Your songs sound a bit bubble gummy and I think it's because of your vocal insecurity and the use of too much "canned" stuff instead of real players.
I'm agreeing with getting rid of the chorus effect and balancing the sounds more....but I also think you should grab a real drummer. It sounds much like what my dad has on his organ - set the beat and play. There's no alteration in the beat in places where you would expect a drummer to get a little edgy and go into a mini-tangent even for a few beats. Voice isn't the only place you want emotion, the music needs some too and I think you can do it. It sounds like you just need to let your hair down a bit and forget there's someone listening and just go for it.

I think you have an interesting voice, but you don't seem to feel easy enough about just wailin' and railin' - conservative to a fault. I'm betting you could give one huge high pitched zap here and there if your undies weren't too tight. LOL - scuse the expression but I think you get what I'm sayin'. Cut the reserve parachute and just free fall. You're too good to worry about crossing the boundries. Conservative doesn't do you justice. Forget models and who's doing what or has done what -- Do Steve, uncensored, unbridled. Then find a drummer who kinda fits Steve but looses control just a tad here and again.

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Killer Joe

15 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

It sounds like you just need to let your hair down a bit and forget there's someone listening and just go for it.

I agree.

You're a musician, for cryin' out loud.

KJ

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

I agree.

You're a musician, for cryin' out loud.

KJ

My God, who does that remind you of? It's driving me crazy but there was
actually a rocker who looked almost like that.

I'm not gonna be able to sleep tonight.

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Killer Joe

15 years ago

Are you thinking of Jackson Browne?

He's my fav, btw.

KJ

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

Are you thinking of Jackson Browne?

He's my fav, btw.

KJ

THANK YOU...Except when he was a little younger than that. But yes.

I was a big Jackson Browne fan too, though I could never write his
style of music well. I tried, but forget it.

Anyway, the song's done and I'm going to upload it to YouTube now.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Okay, I don't burn CDs for one song often (actually never) but here it is.

Well, this was fricken commercial about 32 years ago I'm thinkin.

Does anybody hear Bo Donaldson and the Heywoods? I don't know. It
certainly isn't today, that's for sure.

The vocals are more up front but this is a real 60s, 70s production. It has
the AM radio sound and all. I'm not 100% pleased with the way it turned
out after converting it through Camtasia. It sounds much better off the CD
on my stereo and in my car, but oh well. I think you'll get the gist.

It's very hooky. It may be a dose of saccharin for some, but what can I tell
you?

This is the stuff I grew up with...for better or worse.

The lyrics are under more info.

The tune..."Stuck Into Drive"

YouTube - Stuck Into Drive

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Okay, I don't burn CDs for one song often (actually never) but here it is.

I like it. I like the new arrangement; the vocals are right up front where they belong, and they're pretty good. It is a little sugary, but you sound like a sugary kind of guy, so it fits.

See, once you pull the effects off of it, your voice is just fine! Great work!

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I like it. I like the new arrangement; the vocals are right up front where they belong, and they're pretty good. It is a little sugary, but you sound like a sugary kind of guy, so it fits.

See, once you pull the effects off of it, your voice is just fine! Great work!

Thanks CD. I had asked for some feedback over at a forum where I moderate
and somebody who's been playing and into music for over 35 years gave me
their feedback.

Essentially, the criticisms were pretty much what I expected. Music outdated,
about a 6 or 7 on the quality scale, not good enough to go up against some
stiff competition.

But I'm going to enter this thing anyway just for the heck of it. If I don't,
I'm always going to wonder...what if?

And if I get the same scores and feedback as in the past then I'll just know
I'm not good enough (yet) and either keep trying or just do this for fun,
which is really what I've been doing this for anyway. Honestly, I don't
like the business end of this business anyway. I've seen too much. The
backstabbing, the payoffs, the bribes, the sleeping around, please...it's one
of the worst professions to be in if you want to keep your soul intact.

Anyway, we'll see how it goes.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Okay, here is where we are. Well, where I am.

Based on the comments here and at another forum, these 3 songs are the
almost unanimous picks to submit in this order.

Drop Dead Blonde (Many feel it is the most commercial and has hit potential)
Stuck Into Drive (A very close second)
Can't Rock In Alcatraz (A distant third)

After that, the consensus is so mixed that I'm ultimately going to have to
make a decision on the last to submissions. So I'm going to have to go with
my gut.

My personal favorite (meaning how much I like it) is "Panic At The Disco"
though I've listened to it so much over the last 8 months that I'm sick to
death of it already.

However, my personal "this is what I think is my best all around song" based
on production, song itself and my personal preference, is "Hey Suzy". I
like "Rise Of Nations" a lot but feel the subject matter has it going against
it so I'm not going to send it.

Where I am torn is I hate leaving out "Hang On Irene" because I feel that
lyrically (which is where I get most of my criticism) is my best song. Yet,
it's not on many people's "favorites" lists. Overall, "Hang On Irene" only
comes in at number 7 on my own personal ratings list. Yes, I rate my own
songs and try to be as objective as I can.

As a matter of fact, here's my top 10

Hey Suzy
Panic At The Disco
A Little Jazz
Rise Of Nations
There Goes Another One
Can't Rock In Alcatraz
Hang On Irene
God Can Make Another One
Die For You
Yesterday's Man

Ironically, Drop Dead Blonde, which is on about 80% of the favorites lists
is only 72 in my rating system. Makes you have to wonder if my tastes are
just not the mainstream's.

Stuck Into Drive has not been rated yet because it's part of my latest CD
that isn't even done yet. I have 9 songs finished and 7 more to go. So
who knows where that one will end up. Personally, I like it, and think it's one
of my best hooks, but it's not my personal favorite. It's too short and I'm
not 100% happy with the production. Plus, while I really sang it with all
I had, I think it still could have been better.

Anyway, I may decide to just say screw it and submit a few extras. I'm
not sure yet. But as of right now...these are the 5 that are going.

Drop Dead Blonde
Stuck Into Drive
Can't Rock In Alcatraz
Hey Suzy
Panic At The Disco

On the bubble

Rise Of Nations
Hang On Irene

Very few people liked Die For You and There Goes Another One, so those
two are definitely not going.

Thank you again for all your help. I can't even begin to tell you how much
it meant to me and how much I appreciated it.

Without my music...well, I'm sure you know.

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Killer Joe

15 years ago

I had that song Stuck Into Drive playing in my head for the next hour after I listened to it.

I finally had to start singing "It's A Small World'" to myself just to get out of the loop

So if 'catchy' means anything...

KJ

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

I had that song Stuck Into Drive playing in my head for the next hour after I listened to it.

I finally had to start singing "It's A Small World'" to myself just to get out of the loop

So if 'catchy' means anything...

KJ

Thanks Bill. I don't know if it means anything as far as the judges are
concerned, but it's sure nice to hear.

Hey, even if I just get one of those honorable mentions out of this (I
got 2 of them so far for "I Still Believe In Rock And Roll" and "Rowdy Nights"
that'll get me smiling a bit.

Of course a nice big fat contract and Blink 182 doing one of my tunes
wouldn't be bad either.

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Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago

Just wanted to give you all an update.

Songs have been submitted. See original post for details.

Thanks to all for your help.
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Killer Joe

15 years ago

Steve,

When I was younger and had just met my wife I would serenade her with my guitar and sing her songs. A lot of those were JB's tunes.

My roommate came in one time and when my then girlfriend left the room he turned to me and with this look of amazement said, "I thought that only happened in the movies."

He wasn't being sarcastic, he had just never seen anybody do that.

KJ

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

Steve,

When I was younger and had just met my wife I would serenade her with my guitar and sing her songs. A lot of those were JB's tunes.

My roommate came in one time and when my then girlfriend left the room he turned to me and with this look of amazement said, "I thought that only happened in the movies."

He wasn't being sarcastic, he had just never seen anybody do that.

KJ

Hey, you think that's something? I've written songs FOR my wife.

And NO, I'm not playing them here.

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Killer Joe 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Hey, you think that's something? I've written songs FOR my wife.

Man, I'd kill to be able to write songs like you do...

KJ
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- Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago
  
  Well, I just played it for my wife and she said it was neat and definitely 70s.
  
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HeySal

15 years ago

Hey Steve, I'm posting this youtube because this guy's voice reminds me a lot of yours. It's not a strong voice, as you contend yours isn't - but he sure isn't afraid to use it. Now you sound a lot like him to me, so why the heck you are worried about your voice is something that I just don't "get".

YouTube - Stabbing Westward - What Do I Have To...

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When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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HeySal

15 years ago

Good Luck, Steve. We're cheering for ya. Um.......are you gonna give sigs for free to Warriors or should we be keeping an eye on the WSO forum?

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Good Luck, Steve. We're cheering for ya. Um.......are you gonna give sigs for free to Warriors or should we be keeping an eye on the WSO forum?

I promise if I win and become a big star all Warriors will get autographs free
of charge.

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Bjarne Eldhuset

15 years ago

I've heard Stuck Into Drive three times in a row now, and I really like it.

Somehow your voice reminds me of Mike Scott from The Waterboys.

You should build a mailing list for your music to. I'd sign up.

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Bjarne Eldhuset

I've heard Stuck Into Drive three times in a row now, and I really like it.

Somehow your voice reminds me of Mike Scott from The Waterboys.

You should build a mailing list for your music to. I'd sign up.

The Waterboys. I remember them and even have one of their albums. I
just don't remember which one it is. Let me check.

** EDIT ** I found it. Yeah, I wish I sang as good as Mike Scott. LOL.

Here's my favorite Waterboys tune.

YouTube - The Waterboys - The Whole Of The Moon...

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Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago

You know, I just listened to those 2 songs back to back and son of a gun,
if I don't even just a little bit sound like Mike Scott.

Holy Crap! I never thought that there was anybody out there commercially
who I even came close to sounding like but that wasn't too far off.

Hey, maybe there's hope for me yet.
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Killer Joe

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I promise if I win and become a big star all Warriors will get autographs free of charge.

Autographs only count if they are on a check of some kind.

I hope that's what you're talking about here

Don't forget the commas and the zeros. Love those commas and zeros. :p

KJ

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Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

Autographs only count if they are on a check of some kind.

I hope that's what you're talking about here

Don't forget the commas and the zeros. Love those commas and zeros. :p

KJ

Bill, I promise to write you a check with lots of commas and zeros.

I make no promises of any crooked numbers to go along with them. :p

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Killer Joe 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Bill, I promise to write you a check with lots of commas and zeros.

I make no promises of any crooked numbers to go along with them. :p

Steve,

If the check is from you, all I'll need is the autograph on the bottom.

I have to hand over all my checks to my wife, anyway, so I'll just let her fill in the amount.

Hopefully for you it will be Wal-Mart day...

KJ
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KatyaSenina

15 years ago

Wow didn't know you were into music. I'm a singer myself.

I wish you good luck!

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I'm Entering A Song Contest...UPDATE (SONGS SUBMITTED)

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