CA. to vote to legalize marijuana in nov.

15 years ago

Well, there should be a rule with regards to the intake of marijuana once its legalized. Marijuana kills, when taken improperly.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ClientTell

Well, there should be a rule with regards to the intake of marijuana once its legalized. Marijuana kills, when taken improperly.

When have you EVER heard of marijuana killing anyone? Back in the day, i can pretty much guarantee I took in copious amounts of weed...and amazingly i live to tell the tale.

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tryinhere

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

When have you EVER heard of marijuana killing anyone? Back in the day, i can pretty much guarantee I took in copious amounts of weed...and amazingly i live to tell the tale.

i think all 60's and 70's boppers took some little weed, stories these days is the weed is 3 times if not more stronger and is seriously screwing people heads long term.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by tryinhere

i think all 60's and 70's boppers took some little weed, stories these days is the weed is 3 times if not more stronger and is seriously screwing people heads long term.

I think its like everything else...moderation. If you drink a 6 pack everyday for years upon years, you're going to kill some braincells..same with weed. But i have never ever heard of anyone dying from smoking just weed.

Smoking weed with something else laced in it..yea. Apparently the new thing is 'wet'..which is weed the fermaldehyde (sp?)..that doesnt even sound like a good time.

And i wouldnt doubt that weed today is stronger..especially if you're talking about hydro compared to your average tex mex brick weed. You can run junk seeds through a hydro setting and get an output thats probably 3 times better than what you started with due to the nutrients and tending.

....uh..atleast thats what i hear.

and in the 70's i was still watching cartoons in my pjs.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ClientTell

Well, there should be a rule with regards to the intake of marijuana once its legalized. Marijuana kills, when taken improperly.

A simple Google search is all it takes to prove NOBODY HAS EVER DIED FROM SMOKING TO MUCH CANNABIS. THAT IS NO ONE EVER!

Originally Posted by tryinhere

i think all 60's and 70's boppers took some little weed, stories these days is the weed is 3 times if not more stronger and is seriously screwing people heads long term.

I started smoking cannabis in 1968 and continue to do so.
It is no stronger then it was, it is handled better so it seems more potent.
By that I mean the cannabis you buy in the US today is more likely to have come from your neighbor then from Mexico or Columbia.
Less travel and stress means less loss of the glands that have the THC, CBC'c, etc in them.

Now that some states have legal medical cannabis they are able to do real research and have been finding some incredible stuff and finally able to prove many of the benifits that have been reported for the last 1,000 years or so.

The feds control the cannabis supply that is used for research and will only authorize research that will prove the harmful effects of cannabis, even if they are wrong or flawed research.
"
Marijuana is the only major drug for which the federal government controls the only legal research supply and for which the government requires a special scientific review.
"The more it becomes clear to people that the federal government is blocking these studies, the more people are willing to defect by using politics instead of science to legalize medicinal uses at the state level,"".
Researchers Find Study of Medical Marijuana Discouraged - NYTimes.com

This is one area where it has been proven time and time again that the govt. on the federal level has been lying to us and continuing to support the institutions that profit from cannabis being illegal instead of the people in this country.

O has had 3 polls on his site asking what we think is important to this country.
All 3 times legalizing cannabis has been one of the top 3 choices, yet O's response is to laugh it off.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I think its like everything else...moderation. If you drink a 6 pack everyday for years upon years, you're going to kill some braincells..same with weed. But i have never ever heard of anyone dying from smoking just weed.

Smoking weed with something else laced in it..yea. Apparently the new thing is 'wet'..which is weed the fermaldehyde (sp?)..that doesnt even sound like a good time.

And i wouldnt doubt that weed today is stronger..especially if you're talking about hydro compared to your average tex mex brick weed. You can run junk seeds through a hydro setting and get an output thats probably 3 times better than what you started with due to the nutrients and tending.

....uh..atleast thats what i hear.

and in the 70's i was still watching cartoons in my pjs.

Ya hear wrong

Like any other type of plant it all boils down to the genetics.
I had friends back in the 70's who could grow weed that would cripple you just as fast as anything out there today.

Also it doesn't kill brain cells, that was proved to be a lye back in the 80's.
Not only do we have receptors in the frontal lobe of our brain for THC, it has recently been shown that our bodies produce and use cannabinoids.
Here's a little bit about cannabinoid receptors.
Cannabinoid receptor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a little bit about the cannabinoids (endocannabinoids) the body produces.
"Cannabis, the Cannabinoid Receptors, and Endocannabinoids
The active ingredient of marijuana, from the cannabis plant, is THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol). This chemical exerts its effects on the brain by binding to receptors called the cannabinoid receptors. Scientists have identified two cannabinoid receptors (CB1 and CB2), and evidence suggests that there may be others. Although CB1 is found in many regions of the brain, CB2 is present only in certain cells of the immune system. Because the receptor is present in several brain regions, THC can have manifold effects. For instance, THC may affect memory formation. CB1 is prevalent in the hippocampus, a region of the brain strongly associated with memory. By binding to and activating CB1, THC decreases activity of neurons in the hippocampus and interferes with the proper function of that region, which may translate to an interference with memory formation.

The human body does not produce THC, so why would there be receptors that can bind it? During the 1990s researchers discovered that the body makes chemicals, such as anandamide, that can bind to the cannabinoid receptors. The function of these chemicals, called endocannabinoids, and their receptors is still unknown. To investigate the role of the CB1 receptor, scientists have studied mutant mice that lack the receptor. Compared with normal mice, these mice have a decreased appetite, are less active, and have a reduced lifespan; however, the mice have an enhanced memory.

The CB receptors have recently been associated with some beneficial actions, such as pain relief and extinguishing some fear behaviors. THC has even been prescribed as medication in some states for pain relief for various diseases including glaucoma, AIDS, and cancer"
Rediscovering Biology - Online Textbook: Unit 10 Neurobiology

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

From what I understand, there's a strong link between marijuana smoking and serious mental health problems.

When consumed early in life, for a certain percentage of people, it becomes a prominent contributory factor involved in the development of mental problems including "Clinical Depression" and "Schizophrenia."

If I had children, I'd strongly advise them against it.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

From what I understand, there's a strong link between marijuana smoking and serious mental health problems.

When consumed early in life, for a certain percentage of people, it becomes a prominent contributory factor involved in the development of mental problems including "Clinical Depression" and "Schizophrenia."

If I had children, I'd strongly advise them against it.

I was just reading an article on that.
The question they are trying to answer now is this.
With cannabis use increasing rapidly every year and with 30 years of data available, why haven't the mental problems that cannabis supposedly causes gone up in cannabis users?
In other words there is no data real or otherwise that can support that claim of cannabis causing mental problems.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

You could be right ThomM. After all, I'm not a doctor. I'm just going by what I've read and the experience of people close to me.

I'd definitely be interested in reading that article. Can you post the link, please?

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

You could be right ThomM. After all, I'm not a doctor. I'm just going by what I've read and the experience of people close to me.

I'd definitely be interested in reading that article. Can you post the link, please?

Here ya go.
Opposing Views: Study Says Marijuana Use Not Linked to Schizophrenia

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by tryinhere

i think all 60's and 70's boppers took some little weed, stories these days is the weed is 3 times if not more stronger and is seriously screwing people heads long term.

In the 70's there was a problem with paraquat - that's the poison that was sprayed on plants in Mexico -- which wouldn't have happened if we had legal pot. Pot is not dangerous - and could actually replace alcohol with great effects, less injury, disease, death, and violence.

You need to read the real facts. What you are quoting is propaganda used by those who make a killing from it being illegal.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

In the 70's there was a problem with paraquat - that's the poison that was sprayed on plants in Mexico -- which wouldn't have happened if we had legal pot. Pot is not dangerous - and could actually replace alcohol with great effects, less injury, disease, death, and violence.

You need to read the real facts. What you are quoting is propaganda used by those who make a killing from it being illegal.

Well, wikipedia says the burning renders it non toxic, although it DOES say it is linked to parkinsons. STILL, on quincy M.E. once, (YEAH, ANOTHER show.

) spoke of colchicine Colchicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia a GOUT medicine that was tauted and advertised by a marajuana magazine! WHY? Well, wikipedia:

Botanical use

Since chromosome segregation is driven by microtubules, colchicine is also used for inducing polyploidy in plant cells during cellular division by inhibiting chromosome segregation during meiosis; half the resulting gametes therefore contain no chromosomes, while the other half contain double the usual number of chromosomes (i.e., diploid instead of haploid as gametes usually are), and lead to embryos with double the usual number of chromosomes (i.e. tetraploid instead of diploid). *in plant cells it is not only usually well tolerated, but in fact frequently results in plants which are larger, hardier, faster growing, and in general more desirable than the normally diploid parents; for this reason, this type of genetic manipulation is frequently used in breeding plants commercially.

Sounds GREAT huh? FANTASTIC even? OH YEAH, I left the little asterisked part out:

While this would be fatal in animal cells,

I ALSO left out:

Toxicity

Colchicine poisoning has been compared to arsenic poisoning; symptoms start 2 to 5 hours after the toxic dose has been ingested and include burning in the mouth and throat, fever, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain and kidney failure. These symptoms may set in as many as 24 hours after the exposure. Onset of multiple-system organ failure may occur within 24 to 72 hours. This includes hypovolemic shock due to extreme vascular damage and fluid loss through the GI tract, which may result in death. Additionally, sufferers may experience kidney damage resulting in low urine output and bloody urine; low white blood cell counts (persisting for several days); anemia; muscular weakness; and respiratory failure. Recovery may begin within 6 to 8 days. There is no specific antidote for colchicine, although various treatments do exist.[15]

Certain common inhibitors of CYP3A4 and/or P-gp, including grapefruit juice, may increase the risk of colchicine toxicity.[1]

So don't tell me that this kind of stuff isn't done. Since it is often secret, and may remain so DECADES after being legallized, and it could take days or more to show up, for all we know, it is happening ALL OVER today!

Look at the supplement industry. I forget what they call it, but it actually has a NAME! It is apparently VERY common! Some MIRACLE supplement will come out claiming that its 100% legal or accepted as legal ingredients do MIRACLES! Since this would be VERY difficult to do, they CHEAT! They seed it with ILLEGAL, and often HARMFUL, things to make the benefits appear. Eventually, they may remove them, so they don't get caught. I have seen a LOT of things change, or disappear, over the past few years. The reason often given by an insider or the FDA? The FDA shut them down or some such. That is ALSO often why so many products have FANTASTIC reviews for a given period, and then it is shown to be a flop, even by some that earlier said it was great.

HECK, you have spoken of similar behavior here. Even LEGAL crops aren't usually 100% organic, why would marijuana be different? And there ARE resins that can create a stench and a mess. I once went to a boarding school and it was NO secret that they had pot all over. Heck, one guy was the son of a very famous singer. And he BROUGHT a lot of pot. So I have some expeience with that, even with homegrown stuff.

Steve

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Sleaklight 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ClientTell

Well, there should be a rule with regards to the intake of marijuana once its legalized. Marijuana kills, when taken improperly.

Rules wont hold people back from consuming more than legally allowed. Doesn't make sense to legalize it but restrict the amount you can consume. There's deadlier stuff like alcohol and cigarettes that millions die each year yet continues to be legal and there's no rules as to how much you can consume. Sure there's a rule that you can't drive if you drink more than x amount of alcohol but people still do it every single day. Unless they like cut your arm off if you're caught doing so, people will continue doing it.

While the state may legalize it, it's still illegal to the feds. US law is supreme over state law so if a fed catches you, you're still busted.
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Bill Farnham 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ClientTell

Well, there should be a rule with regards to the intake of marijuana once its legalized. Marijuana kills, when taken improperly.

I have the feeling Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny still pay yearly visits to your house.

So here is a good rule with regards to the intake of marijuana once its legalized...

"Keep it away from the idiots."

That way they won't get any seeds stuck in their veins from trying to mainline the stuff.

Other than that...:rolleyes:

~Bill
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Patrician 15 years ago

you are badly misinformed.

Originally Posted by ClientTell

Well, there should be a rule with regards to the intake of marijuana once its legalized. Marijuana kills, when taken improperly.

In California (CA) we have legal pot dispenseries -

It costs about $150 to get a license to buy, have, and grow pot.

No criminals, cartels, or weirdos.

STOREFRONTS

That's right now - Whether or not they 'legalize' it -

I am still in favor of strong control on several levels.

If it makes it more feasible to those that support alcohol and tobacco in the general population - "over 21" - 'Voting Age': yeh right - yet fail to see how pot is way less harmful than either alcohol or tobacco. and actually has psychotropic/medicinal VALUE

It is not fair for those of us who cannot take pharmaceutical drugs (which have killed and poisoned people for decades) - that all i can take is ibuprofin? not fair is the right answer - same story different day

That is for another thing, I would like my labels to tell me where it is grown, what colors, hairs, names - like 'Santa Cruz Grape" = Purple-Haired Indicus (i never could spell it) or 'Golden Sunset' = sativa , (red) - exactly how much it weighs, and the THC content (super/midi/low test)

(Just like it is TODAY IN CA)

So: whatever! hope it all comes to a town near you!

Or not, whatever you want!
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Emily Meeks 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ClientTell

Well, there should be a rule with regards to the intake of marijuana once its legalized. Marijuana kills, when taken improperly.

My friend's dad is a doctor, and says he has never heard of anyone, let alone had a patient, die of marijuana.

Marijuana will kill brain cells if you smoke it improperly. It's not the fact you do smoke, it's HOW you smoke it.

There's also medical marijuana...

(Note: I have never smoked marijuana in my life, nor do I endorse it or intend to. I am just passing on knowledge from a doctor.)
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JMM 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ClientTell

Well, there should be a rule with regards to the intake of marijuana once its legalized. Marijuana kills, when taken improperly.

Serioually? where did you get your data from? are you talking about the monkeys they died from carbon monoxide poisoning.
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ThomM

15 years ago

There are a few other states like Rhode Island that are considering it also.
Here's a pretty accurate map of what's happened state by state.
State By State Laws - NORML

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MeredithBanks

15 years ago

they have beeen trying this for years!!

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KimW

15 years ago

"Marijuana will kill brain cells if you smoke it improperly. It's not the fact you do smoke, it's HOW you smoke it."

Ok, I'm trying not to fall on the floor from this one. I have to ask, how does one smoke it properly and how does one smoke it improperly?

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Emily Meeks

15 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

"Marijuana will kill brain cells if you smoke it improperly. It's not the fact you do smoke, it's HOW you smoke it."

Ok, I'm trying not to fall on the floor from this one. I have to ask, how does one smoke it properly and how does one smoke it improperly?

I don't know. I don't smoke >

Just passing info along.

EDIT: Something about blocking oxygen to the brain. That's really all I've been told.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Laura Knight

Well, you got the terminology right, jut not the apparatus. There's a new invention (or maybe not so new...I just learned about these recently) called a Volcano Vaporizer System which delivers the THC through a vapor, not smoke. So it ends up being easier on the lungs.

They have been around for years Laura.
The ones that I'm looking into use a bag for the delivery system.
The bag is pretty large and has a valve on the opening.
You hook it up to the vaporizer and it fills the bag with vapors, it looks like a filled balloon when it's done.
Then you can inhale the trapped vapors as you want.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Laura Knight

Well, you got the terminology right, jut not the apparatus. There's a new invention (or maybe not so new...I just learned about these recently) called a Volcano Vaporizer System which delivers the THC through a vapor, not smoke. So it ends up being easier on the lungs.

Of course. (I was kidding.)

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ThomM

15 years ago

Zig there may very well be a link between smoking cannabis and youthful psychotic illness, but with the track record cannabis has I think you'll eventually find it will have more to do with the genetic make up of the youth.
Don't get me wrong here, I don't think any youth should be taking any drug until their brain has had a chance to develop.

I have been finding that most of the studies that have shown cannabis to be harmful are flawed. The reason countries change the category cannabis falls into is because of pressure from our D.E.A.
If you don't think they have the power, then do a google search on Mark Emery and Rick Simpson ans see where they are now and why.
In the U.S. if you want to do a study on cannabis you have to get the cannabis and permission from the D.E.A. They only allow studies that will prove an ill effect of cannabis. When I find the link to that article I'll post it for you.
Till then here's another article on schizophrenia.
Weeding Through The Hype: Interpreting The Latest Warnings About Pot and Schizophrenia | NORML Blog, Marijuana Law Reform

Another thought, in many of these studies that are done under U.S. control is they are only focusing on cannabis.
What I mean is, those conditions could of been caused by something like fluoride in the water they all drank if they all drank city water.
What they do in most of those studies is collect a group that uses cannabis and then if they have any of the ailments they are looking for, they blame them on the cannabis.

Also I forgot to add, if you follow the trail of the groups that come out with these studies showing the ill effects of cannabis, you'll usually find they have an agenda to keep it illegal.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

I agree ThomM. It is more because of a person's genetic predispostion. That was never in question.

However, because I've seen what can happen, and it's devastating, I'll never change my mind that cannabis is harmful.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

I agree ThomM. It is more because of a person's genetic predispostion. That was never in question.

However, because I've seen what can happen, and it's devastating, I'll never change my mind that cannabis is harmful.

We're all entitled to our beliefs.
I'm sorry you feel that way about cannabis. I'm also pretty sure that whatever happened to have you believe that, that cannabis wasn't the actual cause of the problem, but maybe the catalyst.
Some people should never smoke cannabis, unfortunately you pretty much have to smoke it to find out if you can or not.
As for myself, after almost 49 years of smoking, I've found it has gone from "getting high" to a medication and tool I use when praying.
In recent years it has helped me become a more spiritual person and also to stay focused on my goals while it looked like my world was crashing down around me. Today I've achieved the goals I needed to achieve and am in the process of setting new ones.
Sometimes I get overly protective of my plant, if I have and I offended you, well that wasn't my intent.

I'll leave you with this.
1 in 10 Americans smoke cannabis.
The next time you are out in a store, choose 10 people and figure out who it is.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

I agree ThomM. It is more because of a person's genetic predispostion. That was never in question.

However, because I've seen what can happen, and it's devastating, I'll never change my mind that cannabis is harmful.

Anything is harmful if used to excess. There is not one thing you as a human being can take, injest or otherwise consume that isnt bad for you if you take it in excess.

There are so many chemicals, hormones, medications, pollutions..etc. that are already being pulled through the body, and in this day and age when everyone is told they need some special medications with a million bad side effects just to cure a headache, there is no way that anyone can say without a doubt that moderate marijuana usage is THE caused for a jacked up mental state.

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Emily Meeks

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Anything is harmful if used to excess. There is not one thing you as a human being can take, injest or otherwise consume that isnt bad for you if you take it in excess.

There are so many chemicals, hormones, medications, pollutions..etc. that are already being pulled through the body, and in this day and age when everyone is told they need some special medications with a million bad side effects just to cure a headache, there is no way that anyone can say without a doubt that moderate marijuana usage is THE caused for a jacked up mental state.

Exactly. Not to mention, people who take any substances to the absolute extreme (regardless of what it is - marijuana, alcohol, vicodin, methadone, whatever) most likely had something very wrong upstairs to begin with. Everything starts with the mind...

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

Actually, Michael, I'm talking about cannabis being harmful when used occasionally.

I've seen proof of this happening. (This isn't just me saying something without anything to substantiate my claim.)

See, here's more evidence:

"A recent Dutch study showed that teenagers who indulge in cannabis as few as five times in their life significantly increase their risk of psychotic symptoms.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html (A non-profit source of information, support, education)

"People with such a vulnerability should avoid cannabis like the plague."

"Without the effects of the drug, such a person might live their whole life without ever experiencing mental health problems. It has been estimated, for example, that between 8% and 13% of people that have schizophrenia today would never have developed the illness without exposure to cannabis."

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html (A non-profit source of information, support, education)

Originally Posted by moneysoapbox

Exactly. Not to mention, people who take any substances to the absolute extreme (regardless of what it is - marijuana, alcohol, vicodin, methadone, whatever) most likely had something very wrong upstairs to begin with. Everything starts with the mind...

That's just cruel, Emily.

Really horrible way of expressing something when good, normal people have their lives completely ruined (partly) because of smoking cannabis.

You don't have to agree with my point of view, actually, can you be strongly against it if you like. However, getting "nasty" just isn't acceptable.

Next time, keep your thoughts to yourself if you're going to be like that.
(And, just so you know, over 40% of the general population have the specific gene variant for schizophrenia.)

"If You're Under 18 ..."

You're going to make your own decision, and that's cool.

However, understand the "risks" involved and, particularly, if there's a history of mental illness in your family, then it would probably be sensible if you stay away from "weed."

Here's more information.
FRANK - Cannabis

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

Actually, Michael, I'm talking about cannabis being harmful when used occasionally.

I've seen proof of this happening. (This isn't just me saying something without anything to substantiate my claim.)

See, here's more evidence:

"A recent Dutch study showed that teenagers who indulge in cannabis as few as five times in their life significantly increase their risk of psychotic symptoms.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html (A non-profit source of information, support, education)

"People with such a vulnerability should avoid cannabis like the plague."

"Without the effects of the drug, such a person might live their whole life without ever experiencing mental health problems. It has been estimated, for example, that between 8% and 13% of people that have schizophrenia today would never have developed the illness without exposure to cannabis."

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html (A non-profit source of information, support, education)

That's just cruel, Emily.

Really horrible way of expressing something when good, normal people have their lives completely ruined (partly) because of smoking cannabis.

You don't have to agree with my point of view, actually, can you be strongly against it if you like. However, getting "nasty" just isn't acceptable.

Next time, keep your thoughts to yourself if you're going to be like that.
(And, just so you know, over 40% of the general population have the specific gene variant for schizophrenia.)

"If You're Under 18 ..."

You're going to make your own decision, and that's cool.

However, understand the "risks" involved and, particularly, if there's a history of mental illness in your family, then it would probably be sensible if you stay away from "weed."

Here's more information.
FRANK - Cannabis

Well if you're going to keep pushing this, I'll have to pop this link in again.
Opposing Views: Study Says Marijuana Use Not Linked to Schizophrenia

Again it has been shown that we have receptors built into our brain that are there just for cannabinoids. Our bodies produce cannabinoids.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

Actually, Michael, I'm talking about cannabis being harmful when used occasionally.

I've seen proof of this happening. (This isn't just me saying something without anything to substantiate my claim.)

See, here's more evidence:

"A recent Dutch study showed that teenagers who indulge in cannabis as few as five times in their life significantly increase their risk of psychotic symptoms.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html (A non-profit source of information, support, education)

"People with such a vulnerability should avoid cannabis like the plague."

"Without the effects of the drug, such a person might live their whole life without ever experiencing mental health problems. It has been estimated, for example, that between 8% and 13% of people that have schizophrenia today would never have developed the illness without exposure to cannabis."

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html (A non-profit source of information, support, education)

That's just cruel, Emily.

Really horrible way of expressing something when good, normal people have their lives completely ruined (partly) because of smoking cannabis.

You don't have to agree with my point of view, actually, can you be strongly against it if you like. However, getting "nasty" just isn't acceptable.

Next time, keep your thoughts to yourself if you're going to be like that.
(And, just so you know, over 40% of the general population have the specific gene variant for schizophrenia.)

"If You're Under 18 ..."

You're going to make your own decision, and that's cool.

However, understand the "risks" involved and, particularly, if there's a history of mental illness in your family, then it would probably be sensible if you stay away from "weed."

Here's more information.
FRANK - Cannabis

What?? you mean that someone who already leans toward having mental instability may become....mentally unstable....if they injest a mind altering substance?

Wow, this is ground breaking medical information here! Hey, i also heard that if you have thyroid issues, eating cake might make you fat. Shocking..i know.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

Michael, either you haven't read my post correctly, or you have the inability to understand what's being communicated.

Often people who smoke "weed" can't have a normal conversation with sober people because they can hardly understand what's being said.

Many people use "weed" because it numbs them from the reality that life hasn't turned out quite the way they planned. (Like ThomM mentioned.)

I kind of sympathise with that. However using "weed" to block out the pain of life isn't going to change anything. Except increasing your risk of contracting cancer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/09/testicular-cancer-cannabis-risk

(Moving on ...)

ThomM, I don't understand why you keep posting that link. At the very end, it clearly states:

Last year, British lawmakers reclassified cannabis possession from a verbal warning to a criminal offense punishable by up to five years in jail. Lawmakers called for the increased penalties in large part as a response to allegations that marijuana use was linked to rising incidences of mental illness.

(In other words, it's illegal because experts believe it could be responsible for the increase of mental illness.)

That's kind of what I've been saying.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

Michael, either you haven't read my post correctly, or you have the inability to understand what's being communicated.

Often people who smoke "weed" can't have a normal conversation with sober people because they can hardly understand what's being said.

Feeling "Zonked-out" isn't my idea of having fun.

Many people use "weed" because it numbs them from the reality that life hasn't turned out quite the way they planned. (Like ThomM mentioned.) I kind of sympathise with that.

However using "weed" to block out the pain of life isn't going to change anything. Except increasing your risk of contracting cancer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/09/testicular-cancer-cannabis-risk

(Moving on ...)

ThomM, I don't understand why you keep posting that link. At the very end, it clearly states:

(In other words, it's illegal because experts believe it could be responsible for the increase of mental illness.)

That's kind of what I've been saying.

Allegations, not scientific fact.
As far as what I bolded above, that is such a crock that it almost doesn't deserve a reply. Anyways here's a few more links for you.
If you are interested pm me and I will hook you up with a little ebook I have that has 252 pages of just links to articles, studies, etc. that show some of the benefits of cannabis and certainly disputes or disproves most if not all of the negative claims.
International Association for Cannabis as Medicine
Entheology.org - Preserving Ancient Knowledge

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ThomM 15 years ago

Here's some links addressing your bogus cancer statement.
Journal of Clinical Investigation -- Inhibition of skin tumor growth and angiogenesis in vivo by activation of cannabinoid receptors
The Medical Marijuana Magazine
Clinical Studies and Case Reports
UKCIA
$line[description]
Anti-Tumor Effects
Endocannabinoids in the immune system and cancer. [Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 2002 Feb-Mar] - PubMed result
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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

[DELETED]

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

Thom, there are websites claiming that the government is run by UFOs and that Elvis is still alive. (That doesn't mean what they're peddling is true.)

There's a massive "cult" which believes 9/11 was something to do with the CIA. There's website, after website and whole groups of people who turn up for an annual conference, and all of them sincerely believe what they claim. (That doesn't mean it's true.)

Despite the fact that people keep providing evidence, after evidence, after evidence, they just can't comprehend that maybe, just maybe, they've got it wrong.

You really need to reread what you just said.
Keep in mind we are talking about a plant that has been used as a medicine and for recreation for 1000's of years. This isn't something new that was recently discovered.
Latest estimates have 1 in 10 Americans smoking cannabis.
Would you like to see a list of some of the more famous cannabis smokers?
Ever heard of Carl Sagan?

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The late astronomer and author, Carl Sagan was a secret but avid marijuana smoker, crediting it with inspiring essays and scientific insight, according to Sagan's biographer.

Using the pseudonym "Mr. X'', Sagan wrote about his pot smoking in an essay published in the 1971 book "Reconsidering Marijuana.'' The book's editor, Lester Grinspoon, recently disclosed the secret to Sagan's biographer, Keay Davidson.

Davidson, a writer for the San Francisco Examiner, revealed the marijuana use in an article published in the newspaper's magazine Sunday. "Carl Sagan: A Life'' is due out in October.

"I find that today a single joint is enough to get me high ... in one movie theater recently I found I could get high just by inhaling the cannabis smoke which permeated the theater,'' wrote Sagan, who authored popular science books such as "Cosmos,'' "Contact,'' and "The Dragons of Eden.''

In the essay, Sagan said marijuana inspired some of his intellectual work.

"I can remember one occasion, taking a shower with my wife while high, in which I had an idea on the origins and invalidities of racism in terms of gaussian distribution curves,'' wrote the former Cornell University professor. "I wrote the curves in soap on the shower wall, and went to write the idea down.

Sagan also wrote that pot enhanced his experience of food, particularly potatoes, music and sex.

Grinspoon, Sagan's closest friend for 30 years, said Sagan's marijuana use is evidence against the notion that marijuana makes people less ambitious.

"He was certainly highly motivated to work, to contribute,'' said Grinspoon, a psychiatry professor at Harvard University.

Grinspoon is an advocate of decriminalizing marijuana.

Ann Druyan, Sagan's former wife, is a director of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws. The nonprofit group promotes legalization of marijuana.

Sagan died of pneumonia in 1996. He was 62.

I'd put a link in, but you seem to think only links you use are valid and anything that disproves your beliefs are just, what hearsay?

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I'd put a link in, but you seem to think only links you use are valid and anything that disproves your beliefs are just, what hearsay?

That's the problem with marijuana smokers. They won't believe anything which is contrary to "weed" being harmless. Thom, this discussion could go on forever.

As far as I know, the reason why marijuana is illegal in so many countries is because of the (believed) damaging psychological effects it can have on people.

Of course, you have an answer to that. And, everything else.

And that's cool. Maybe you're right. Like you said, we're all entitled in what we believe. Perhaps I've made a stronger case against "weed" than was needed. Maybe not, depending on how you see it.

Either way, I stand by what I said. I think marijuana can be harmful.

I don't particularly like "arguing" with people. Especially people I like. So I think I'm just going to let this one go, knowing that perhaps I could have saved someone from having their life ruined.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

That's the problem with marijuana smokers. They won't believe anything which is contrary to "weed" being harmless. Thom, this discussion could go on forever.

As far as I know, the reason why marijuana is illegal in so many countries is because of the (believed) damaging psychological effects it can have on people.

Of course, you have an answer to that. And, everything else.

And that's cool. Maybe you're right. Like you said, we're all entitled in what we believe. Perhaps I've made a stronger case against "weed" than was needed. Maybe not, depending on how you see it.

Either way, I stand by what I said. I think marijuana can be harmful.

I don't particularly like "arguing" with people. Especially people I like. So I think I'm just going to let this one go, knowing that perhaps I could have saved someone from having their life ruined.

And that's always the closing argument from those who can't except the truth.
Zig, I've been researching and fighting for the legalization of cannabis for 30 years, I've done the research.
I have discussions like we have had weekly.
I've read the evidence for and against cannabis, plus there is 40+ years of real world experience I have to draw on.
In other words I'm not basing anything I say on a couple of articles I might of read and some hearsay stuff I heard in a bar.
Franky I found some of what you had to say demeaning and insulting, but then that's the way it usually goes in these debates.
Seems educated cannabis smokers don't fit into the mold that some place cannabis smokers in.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

Michael, either you haven't read my post correctly, or you have the inability to understand what's being communicated.

Often people who smoke "weed" can't have a normal conversation with sober people because they can hardly understand what's being said.

And you seriously believe this?

Many people use "weed" because it numbs them from the reality that life hasn't turned out quite the way they planned. (Like ThomM mentioned.)

Really? Maybe you should pass that tidbit of info onto the most powerful man in the country. I can see how holding multiple degrees from ivy league colleges before you become president could be quite a letdown for life. :rolleyes:

I kind of sympathise with that. However using "weed" to block out the pain of life isn't going to change anything. Except increasing your risk of contracting cancer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/09/testicular-cancer-cannabis-risk

'From the newsdesk: inhaling smoke can cause cancer. Next up, standing in the sun too long can give you a sunburn...film at 11'

ThomM, I don't understand why you keep posting that link. At the very end, it clearly states:

(In other words, it's illegal because experts believe it could be responsible for the increase of mental illness.)

That's kind of what I've been saying.

Its illegal because the plant that the bud grows on threatens too many industries due to its abilility to create many different products..including fuel.

There have been multiple tests, including one by the mayor of new york, that show that moderate responsible use has no ill effects.

If you want a copy of reefer madness, let me know...but something tells me you probably already have a copy.

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whateverpedia

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Its illegal because the plant that the bud grows on threatens too many industries due to its abilility to create many different products..including fuel.

I saw a documentary a few years back and from memory it stated that Harry Truman made all forms of hemp illegal because he was friends with a bigwig at DuPont Chemicals.

They had just invented nylon, and wanted it to be used for ropes.

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Andie

15 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

I saw a documentary a few years back and from memory it stated that Harry Truman made all forms of hemp illegal because he was friends with a bigwig at DuPont Chemicals.

They had just invented nylon, and wanted it to be used for ropes.

That is the American way!!

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

I saw a documentary a few years back and from memory it stated that Harry Truman made all forms of hemp illegal because he was friends with a bigwig at DuPont Chemicals.

They had just invented nylon, and wanted it to be used for ropes.

Actually it the movement was spearheaded by a guy named Harry Anslinger. He had a 2 fold reason for doing it. One was he has a major stockholder in the company that would become dupont, and yeah, they had nylon but couldn't bring it on the market because hemp had everything locked down. Anslinger started his big push around 1930, apointed by andrew mellon and pushed along witht he help of Randolph Hearst (his second 'reason) a large newspaper magnate at the time who had just purchased a MASSIVE forest for his newspaper empire..that until that time was printed largely on hemp paper (as was a copy of the constitution) Anslinger was the head of a newly formed group called the federal bureau of narcotics...it would later be named the ATF.

Around 1930, hemp was considered the new billion dollar crop...and Anslinger's efforts were accelerated when there were experiments on a new hemp harvester that could do the work in half the time..pushing paper even farther to the back burner for the printing industry and making nylon that much more less cost efficient for the market in general.

First the cannibis 'plauge' was blamed on dirty mexicans...then the reason for making weed illegal was because it made 'uppity negro soldiers' attack white officers and get them in such a state that they would go out and search for white women to rape. Yeah..those were really reasons stated by this government.

Around the same time Mayor Laguardia of New York did his own study and found there to be no issues with marijuana use with new york residents, which pissed anslinger off so bad he threatened to trash laguardia's shining career, and then turned around and got his own 'scientists' (from dupont) to do the study again and give him the answers he wanted.

Around 1937 (and technically still today) marijuana was legal in the country with the 'marijuana stamp tax act'. The trick was you had to have the stamp to grow marijuana, but you couldn't get the stamp unless you had the product in hand. The first guy that showed up with a truck full of crops to get his stamp was promptly arrested, and nobody applied again after that, but i think they still produce the stamp, or atleast did until about the mid 90's, thats the last date range i've seen on an actual stamp.

thats a severely condensed snapshot of the whole ordeal, you can find more info easily on the net.

p.s. Hemp isnt just for ropes. Hemp can produce about 25,000 products that range from medicine for glaucoma, to fuel, to food. The hemp seed has 8 different protiens in it that are easily digestable by humans...its next biggest competition is soy...which has 6 protiens.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

I must have been wrong about you, Thom, I thought you'd respond differently to that.

At the end of the day, you're fighting for Cannabis being legal because you like getting high (or something), and I'm fighting for it being illegal because of the link between cannabis and "Manic Depression" and "Schizophrenia." You don't really have a leg to stand on.

Since you're both came out fighting and being "provocative" I'm going to keep going.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

I must have been wrong about you, Thom, I thought you'd respond differently to that.

At the end of the day, you're fighting for Cannabis being legal because you like getting high (or something), and I'm fighting for it being illegal because of the link between cannabis and "Manic Depression" and "Schizophrenia." You don't really have a leg to stand on.

Since you're both came out fighting and being "provocative" I'm going to burry this thread in the ground.

Other than the leg that supports marijuana not causing manic depression and schizophrenia in people that aren't already predisposed to it...yeah he's got nothing to stand on ?

Similar to the saying of marijuana being a gateway drug. Please...if marijuana usage leads you to heroin, then you just needed an excuse for a trip you were already planning on anyway.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

[DELETED]

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

Using your thinking, Michael, that would mean if someone close to you contracted lung cancer because of a "genetic predisposition," then it's OK because they shouldn't have been smoking cigareetes.

Are you saying that it's OK for cigarettes to be legal because everyone knows they're linked with cancer, and that they're much more likely to be cancerous in people that are already "predisposed?"

No, by my thinking, in that instance smoking isnt the cause for the cancer...by your thinking they wouldn't have gotten the cancer except by smoking..regardless if they had a dna timebomb waiting to explode and just happened to be smoking when it did. Regardless if they had been smoking or not, they would have still ended up with cancer.

I dont think cigarettes should be legal at all. They have been proven without a doubt to be addictive, they have been proven without a doubt to kill 1 in 3 people that use them, either by directly causing lung cancer or by a whole laundry list of diseases associated with smoking, there is no benefit to tobacco other than someone who already has more money than god, feeding an addiction they created to put more money in their pocket.

Marijuana on the other hand has quite a few benefits and the tradeoffs for the downside are negligible.

There are also quite a few people that have a genetic predisposition for alcoholism...and diabetes. Should we therefore ban alcohol so that those people don't use alcohol and by using jumpstart what their body is going to do them in the long run with or without alcohol?

And here's something to mull over. The female hemp plant is the plant that produces bud, the male hemp plant doesnt produce any bud at all and has less than .01% of thc in the entire plant, nowhere near enough to use for recreational purposes. You would have to smoke so much of a ground up male plant that you would likely pass out from the smoke blocking airways before you ever got a buzz from the thc levels.

You see technically, its not marijuana that is illegal..it is Tetrahydrocannabinol or THC, which is a schedule I and III controlled substance. When people get arrested for possession, its not because of the plant matter, its because of the chemical IN the plant matter. But since everyone knows that marijuana has THC in it...they go hand in hand.

Now since the male plant has such small amounts of THC in it, nothing that anyone can really do anything with...what would be your explination for the male hemp plant being illegal?

The plant can be grown anywhere, in most any climate, and doesnt really take a lot of knowledge to grow. There are areas that are in this country that are financially strapped that could turn themselves around with a cash crop like this and there isnt a chance in hell that the male plant can do anything to you psychologically, predisposition or not.

Its not the bud, its the plant. The bud is just a side effect and the way it is kept illegal is feeding people b.s. stories about how you smoke it and hear jimmy hendrix music for the rest of your life or other 'issues'. Scare tactics are the best tactics for keeping things illegal.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

Essentially, smoking is the cause. Meaning, that without smoking, the person wouldn't have contracted cancer.

Same thing with marijuana and mental health problems.

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KenThompson 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

Same thing with marijuana and mental health problems.

Seems quite a leap, there.

But that's cool.
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- Jonathan 2.0 Banned 15 years ago
  
  You're right, Ken, more accurately:
  
  "Often, for some mental health problems. Predominately, manic depression and schizophrenia."
  
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  KenThompson 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ZigZag
  
  You're right, Ken, more accurately:
  
  "Often, for some mental health problems. Predominately, manic depression and schizophrenia."
  
  Well... not interested to debate anything. But you cite a study that makes some
  pretty huge claims. Claims I don't believe. But that's fine.
  
  There's no way anyone can accurately determine if these things would never
  have happened had they not indulged. Impossible.
  
  Their credibility goes out the window with that statement.
  
  But, whatever. Not important at all, to me.
  
  See ya...
  
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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

Essentially, smoking is the cause. Meaning, that without smoking, the person wouldn't have contracted cancer.

Same thing with marijuana and mental health problems.

No. Smoking and cancer is not cause and effect for everyone. There are people that are genetically predispositioned for cancer. Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when. It wont matter if they smoke or stick carrots up their butts, given a long enough time line, they will have cancer.

The same thing with people with mental issues. They will have mental issues no matter what. They dont have to smoke marijuana to have mental issues, they can drink coke and they will STILL have mental issues. Now its probaly not a far stretch to think that they may be able to keep their stuff together when they aren't smoking...but its not the smoking that caused the underlying issue, it was there already, marijuana probably just let the cat out of the proverbial bag.

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Emily Meeks

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

That's just cruel, Emily.

Really horrible way of expressing something when good, normal people have their lives completely ruined (partly) because of smoking cannabis.

You don't have to agree with my point of view, actually, can you be strongly against it if you like. However, getting "nasty" just isn't acceptable.

Next time, keep your thoughts to yourself if you're going to be like that.

While it is true that some people go down a downward spiral without bringing it on themselves (not entirely, at least), more often than not I knew several kids in high school lose their minds due to extremely poor decisions.

I mean to say that ANYTHING taken to the extreme is a bad sign. It doesn't even have to be a drug - an extreme addiction to anything can ruin someone.

Tendencies that lead to such destruction often begin with poor decision-making, which begins in the mind. I realize the way I construed it makes it sound like a matter of intelligence (which while I believe plays a part, doesn't necessarily corelate to making good decisions), and for that I apologize.

It's all about taking responsibility for your actions, and practicing moderation. That's all I meant.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

I agree with you, Emily. You're right. (That point was never in question.)

I just can't find it in my heart to blame a 15-year-old boy who had his life completely ruined because he thought cannabis was safe.

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Emily Meeks

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

I agree with you, Emily. You're right. (That point was never in question.)

I just can't find it in my heart to blame a 15-year-old boy who had his life completely ruined because he thought cannabis was safe.

Sad fact of life is, there's misinformation all over the place in high school... teachers can't talk about it because parents will blame them for "corrupting their babies", so you've got some kids going off the deep end with drugs and thinking douching with Coke is an effective form of birth control. (Sounds like a joke, but I kid you not on this one.)

I knew a kid in chemistry class who while he did smoke weed, he actually went off the handle with a combination of X, coke and meth and ended up in critical condition. He was supposed to get clean afterwards, but two months after being ushered away from death's door he was back at it again. I can't say I know what else was going on in his life (we weren't very close), but something was not right.

Then on the flipside, I have a good friend since 7th grade who routinely smokes, but has held down a job for years, is productive and can carry on an intelligent conversation.

All drugs have dangerous side effects, legal or not... I'm not really sure where I'm going with this anymore

but all I really ask of people I respect is to know what they're getting into and practice common sense.

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whateverpedia 15 years ago

Originally Posted by moneysoapbox

but all I really ask of people I respect is to know what they're getting into and practice common sense.

As you should do with any "substances", whether it's beer, wine, spirits or weed.

Pharmaceuticals, ie stuff made in labs should be avoided altogether though.
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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

I agree with you, Emily. You're right. (That point was never in question.)

I just can't find it in my heart to blame a 15-year-old boy who had his life completely ruined because he thought cannabis was safe.

Yeah, but you can't say that thats the ONLY thing that he thought was safe. When i was in high school people used to think that huffing gas was safe that 'locker room' (an inhalant) was safe, that eating mushrooms, acid, coke was safe.

Just because a 15 year old boy 'had his life ruined' and mommy found papers and bag of weed in his room, doesn't mean that he's going to tell about the 1000's of other potentially dangerous chemicals he's injested in various amounts, before or along with that bag of weed.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

Oh shut up, Michael. Now you're just being spiteful and rude.

That's not how you speak to people in person, so don't do it now where you can hide behind your computer screen.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

Oh shut up, Michael. Now you're just being spiteful and rude.

That's not how you speak to people in person, so don't do it now where you can hide behind your computer screen.

Thats wasn't meant to be spiteful or rude...if you read it that way, its probably just YOUR state of mind.

And yes, if someone speaks with authority by regurgitating things they have been told without doing any research for themselves...i'll speak to them just like that in person.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

"Marijuana will kill brain cells if you smoke it improperly. It's not the fact you do smoke, it's HOW you smoke it."

Ok, I'm trying not to fall on the floor from this one. I have to ask, how does one smoke it properly and how does one smoke it improperly?

If you smoke it the way Dr. Heath of Tulane U. had his monkeys smoke it to prove it killed brain cells, well it will kill some brain cells

Scroll down this page and read this section.
Jack Herer - Chapter 15
"

Dr. Heath/Tulane Study, 1974

The Hype:

Brain Damage & Dead Monkeys"

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Kurt 15 years ago

WARNING: Side effects may include watching TV with the sound down while listening to music on the stereo/ipod.
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- ThomM 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kurt
  
  WARNING: Side effects may include watching TV with the sound down while listening to music on the stereo/ipod.
  
  Don't forget the cinnamon buns:rolleyes:
  
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  troykrause 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ThomM
  
  Don't forget the cinnamon buns:rolleyes:
  
  And driving under the speed limit. LOL If everyone smoked a little pot once in awhile, the whole world would be a better place. Might not be a good thing to do while operating heavy equipment or doing brain surgery, but There would be a lot more happy people around us.
  
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KimW

15 years ago

Thom is right.
No he isn't
Yes he is
No he isn't

No mental problems here...........

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Patrician

15 years ago

Thank you Thom for having the documented resources to prove the facts to these people that make irrational statements that are not based on fact, but have been repeated as fact for decades, bringing so much harm.

what the hell are they smoking?

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Here ya go.
Opposing Views: Study Says Marijuana Use Not Linked to Schizophrenia

Thank you for posting the link ThomM. You seem like a cool guy. Enjoy the rest of the weekend.

Originally Posted by Patrician

Thank you Thom for having the documented resources to prove the facts to these people that make irrational statements that are not based on fact, but have been repeated as fact for decades, bringing so much harm.

what the hell are they smoking?

Since we're feeling all-knowing today, Patricia, (you're the expert on marijuana use and mental health problems, obviously) please explain the following for me:

"Are Smoking Pot And Psychosis Linked?"

Smoking cannabis, or marijuana, as a youth could boost the risk of developing a psychotic illness later in life by about 40%, according to a new analysis of published studies conducted by British researchers.

The more than 40% increase in risk applies to those who have ever used the drug, and the risk rises even more with frequent use, according to Stanley Zammit, MD, PhD, clinical lecturer in psychiatric epidemiology at Cardiff University and the University of Bristol in the U.K., a study co-author.

"People who have ever used cannabis, on average, have about a 40% increased risk of developing psychotic illness later in life compared with people who have never used cannabis," he tells WebMD.

www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20070726/pot-now-psychotic-later

So, if smoking marijuana and schizophrenia are not linked, then why are we having so much discussion and so much proof from medical experts (who have no agenda). And, then testimonials from people suffering from mental health problems?

As a marijuana user, you should know, there's no smoke without fire.

By the way, following the report I've just linked to, in 2008 British Parliament voted to reclassify marijuana as a Class B (from class C) substance, making its possession punishable by up to five years in prison.

"Why?"

After all, the government could make a fortune by legalizing marijuana, couldn't they?

"If cannabis is safe, why am I psychotic?"

For years psychiatrists have noticed a high level of cannabis use among people with psychosis, a generic term for schizophrenia, delusional episodes, manic depression and so on.

But it had always been regarded as a chicken and egg problem; sufferers tended to have behavioural problems as adolescents and were more likely to use drugs to counter their often miserable lives.

But all that changed two years ago when a group of researchers had the idea of relating cannabis and psychosis to the Dunedin group, a continuing long-term study of 1,000 children - now adults - in New Zealand.

They found that those who used cannabis by the age of 15 were more than three times (i.e. 300% higher) as likely to develop illnesses such as schizophrenia.

www.schizophrenia.com/research/cannabis.htm

Here's my position:

For adults who've been using marijuana sensibly for a long time, I think it's generally "OK." Something would have manifested by now if they were "At risk." (Just my educated opinion.)

However, there's a definite, definite risk for young people. In fact, it could very well be a contributory factor in the development of psychosis-related illnesses including "Schizophrenia" and "Manic Depression." (Like I mentioned before.)

Still don't believe me? Here's more reading.

Cannabis-induced psychosis and subsequent schizophrenia-spectrum disorders: follow-up study of 535 incident cases. Br J Psychiatry. 2005 Dec;187:510-5
　
Toward a world consensus on prevention of schizophrenia.
Dialogues Clin Neurosci. 2005;7(1):53-67.
　
Risk for schizophrenia--broadening the concepts, pushing back the boundaries.
Schizophr Res. 2005 Nov 1;79(1):5-13.
　
The environment and schizophrenia: the role of cannabis use.
Schizophr Bull. 2005 Jul;31(3):608-12. Epub 2005 Jun 23.
　
Predictors of schizophrenia--a review.
Br Med Bull. 2005 Jun 9;73:1-15. Print 2005.
　
Cannabis as a risk factor for psychosis: systematic review.
J Psychopharmacol. 2005 Mar;19(2):187-94.
　
Cannabis use prior to first onset psychosis predicts spared neurocognition at 10-year follow-up.
Schizophr Res. 2005 Jun 1;75(1):135-7.
　
[Acute and chronic cognitive disorders caused by cannabis use]
Rev Prat. 2005 Jan 15;55(1):23-6; discussion 27-9. French.
　
Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol effects in schizophrenia: implications for cognition, psychosis, and addiction.
Biol Psychiatry. 2005 Mar 15;57(6):594-608.
　
Cannabis use and psychotic disorders: an update.
Drug Alcohol Rev. 2004 Dec;23(4):433-43. Review.

Is cannabis an anti-antipsychotic? The experience in psychiatric intensive care.
Hum Psychopharmacol. 2005 Apr;20(3):207-10.

Cannabis and risk of psychosis.
Swiss Med Wkly. 2004 Nov 13;134(45-46):659-63. Review.
　
[Cannabis can double the risk of schizophrenia. Increasing but still controversial knowledge of the psychological effects of the drug]
Lakartidningen. 2004 Oct 7;101(41):3126-7. Swedish.
　
Is the party over? Cannabis and juvenile psychiatric disorder: the past 10 years.
J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 2004 Oct;43(10):1194-205. Review.
　
Adverse effects of cannabis on health: an update of the literature since 1996.
Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2004 Aug;28(5):849-63. Review.

Cannabis use and risk of psychosis: an etiological link?
Epidemiol Psichiatr Soc. 2004 Apr-Jun;13(2):113-9. Review.
　
[Cannabis and schizophrenia. From euphoria to psychosis]
Rev Med Liege. 2004 Feb;59(2):98-103. French.

Heavy cannabis users seeking treatment- prevalence of psychiatric disorders.Soc Psychiatry Psychiatr Epidemiol. 2004 Feb;39(2):97-105.
　
Cannabis use and the risk of later schizophrenia: a review.
Addiction. 2004 Apr;99(4):425-30. Review.
Cannabis use and psychosis.Drug Alcohol Rev. 1998 Dec;17(4):433-44.
　
Cannabis use and age at onset of schizophrenia.
Am J Psychiatry. 2004 Mar;161(3):501-6.
　
Causal association between cannabis and psychosis: examination of the evidence.
Br J Psychiatry. 2004 Feb;184:110-7. Review.
　
[Cannabis use as a probable causative factor in the later development of schizophrenia]
Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 2003 Nov 1;147(44):2178-83. Dutch.
　
[Use of cannabis in adolescence and risk of schizophrenia]
Rev Bras Psiquiatr. 2003 Sep;25(3):131-2. Portuguese.
　
Cannabis use in adolescence and risk for adult psychosis: longitudinal prospective study.
BMJ. 2002 Nov 23;325(7374):1212-3. No abstract available.
　
[Is there a temporal correlation between substance abuse and psychosis in adolescents?]
Z Kinder Jugendpsychiatr Psychother. 2002 May;30(2):97-103. German.
　
Cannabis and psychosis.
Curr Psychiatry Rep. 2002 Jun;4(3):191-6. Review

schizophrenia.com/prevention/cannabis.marijuana.schizophrenia.html (A non-profit source of information, support, education)

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

In my opinion, health has never truly been the issue behind weed being illegal. It has always (again just imo) been issue more textile based. The bud is just a nice little side effect of the plant. The plant has so many uses and can be grown in a vast selection of climates that there are a lot of people making products they have lone license to and hemp threatens them. Their pockets are deep enough that they can hold off marijuana use as long as they keep people that smoke associated with popular media stereotypes like Cheech and Chong, or Spicoli from Fast Times At Ridgemont High.

Can you imagine the explosion that would happen if everytime there was some kind of reference to beer in the news there was some kind of reference to an unshaven redneck in a stained wifebeater or a frat boy crushing beer cans on his forehead?

At this point in time, because of media imagery like that, people don't take people who represent smokers or are smokers seriously.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

In my opinion, health has never truly been the issue behind weed being illegal. It has always (again just imo) been issue more textile based. The bud is just a nice little side effect of the plant. The plant has so many uses and can be grown in a vast selection of climates that there are a lot of people making products they have lone license to and hemp threatens them. Their pockets are deep enough that they can hold off marijuana use as long as they keep people that smoke associated with popular media stereotypes like Cheech and Chong, or Spicoli from Fast Times At Ridgemont High.

Can you imagine the explosion that would happen if everytime there was some kind of reference to beer in the news there was some kind of reference to an unshaven redneck in a stained wifebeater or a frat boy crushing beer cans on his forehead?

At this point in time, because of media imagery like that, people don't take people who represent smokers or are smokers seriously.

You're right.
The original 'problem' was hemp.
The imagery is changing.
Now it's more the house wife medicating for back pain or the Afgan Vet. medicating for P.T.S.D.
Of course that's what you see now on Fox News

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whateverpedia

15 years ago

Apparently it is already legal in Ireland. Refer this post:

http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...f-2-2-5-a.html

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ThomM 15 years ago

I don't know if this scares me or thrills me, the source not the article
Are You Cannabis Deficient? FOX News Health Blog FOXNews.com
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Patrician

15 years ago

Here is the Deal - On one hand you have one article based on supposed scientific information. (versus an entire body of evidence and information that says contrary)

1. I know PERSONALLY - that is from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE -

a. Several marriages AND LIVES that have been ruined by the PSYCHOSIS OF ALCOHOLICS

LET'S GET RID OF IT! 5 YEARS IN PRISON.

b. How many marriages has pot ruined yet?

2. I know PERSONALLY my father was only 42 when he drank himself to death.

3. I know PERSONALLY when my ex-husband drank himself to death by 38.

The PSYCHOSIS that they had IN FRONT is what CREATED the ALCOHOLIC - (together with alcohol)

4. SO IF WE MUST GO TO PRISON FOR 5 YEARS, THEN LET'S MAKE IT 10 FOR ALCOHOL.

This won't happen, because the liquor lobby is much too powerful in this country.

5. I know people who have smoked pot for decades and they are still here, getting college degrees, holding down jobs, loving their families.

6. That there will be false information published so as to dissuade people from things that the government/society fears - mostly for FINANCIAL REASONS.

a Vitamins
b Herbs
c Chriopractic
d Organic
e. Global Warming

7. I know PERSONALLY that I have smoked pot for decades - I am in perfect health at least physically - I would be dead if I drank 1/10 as much as I smoked. (don't smoke much anymore and don't drink even less)

8. I know PERSONALLY my son has smoked since he was a teenager - *(NOT my idea, NOR did I know until his highschool year book 'Good luck Stoner', etc. lol) He put himself through college and worked 2 jobs to pay off his student loans. He has a Bachelor's Degree and I bet he was stoned at the graduation ceremony.

He drives 175 miles round trip at the drop of a hat to visit his grandmother when she 'feels bad'. He has a ton of close friends all the way back from childhood (and not even in the same areas anymore). He is a good guy. (I will admit he could be more motivated to work than he is)

9. Let's not even talk about how many people have DIED FROM TOBACCO USE. MAKE IT 20 YEARS IN PRISON! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!

10. Shall we talk about how many people are DYING FROM DRUG OVERDOSES, and the PSYCHOSIS BROUGHT ON BY LEGAL PHARMACEUTICAL DRUGS? MILLIONS,YO, AS WE SPEAK.

So PROPAGANDA AND DOGMA ASIDE, if you can just explain to me why it is fair to allow people to COMMIT SUICIDE WITH TOBACCO AND ALCOHOL, then put others in jail for smoking pot, I am listening.

By the way - I did not direct any snarky comments to you personally - I did not 'Call You Out' -- I made a general comment - I would appreciate the same consideration.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

You know, Patrician, if you're going to start shouting at everyone, then maybe you should be smoking something. (Hehe.) Just kidding. Enjoy your Sunday.

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Kay King

15 years ago

I have no dog in this fight - but can't help but wonder what happens if the measure doesn't pass in CA. Everyone is assuming it will but from what I've read the opinion seems to be close to 50-50.

What I dislike is the argument of "we need the money" as a reason for legalizing a substance. If something is worth legalizing - it should be worth it not just because of the taxes it will generate.

Tobacco is a good example - the govt pays millions or more every year in subsidies to farmers who grow tobacco. We know the damage the substance causes to people - and it's a big part of health care costs. Yet it can't be banned because it brings in so much in taxes.

Oddly, anti-smoking groups are allied with tobacco and pharmaceutical companies in an attempt to ban e-cigarettes which are safer to use than tobacco. Why? Because they haven't yet had the massive taxes placed on them.

If the only reason to legalize a substance is to bring in more tax money so that more can be spent - there's something wrong.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I have no dog in this fight - but can't help but wonder what happens if the measure doesn't pass in CA. Everyone is assuming it will but from what I've read the opinion seems to be close to 50-50.

What I dislike is the argument of "we need the money" as a reason for legalizing a substance. If something is worth legalizing - it should be worth it not just because of the taxes it will generate.

Tobacco is a good example - the govt pays millions or more every year in subsidies to farmers who grow tobacco. We know the damage the substance causes to people - and it's a big part of health care costs. Yet it can't be banned because it brings in so much in taxes.

Oddly, anti-smoking groups are allied with tobacco and pharmaceutical companies in an attempt to ban e-cigarettes which are safer to use than tobacco. Why? Because they haven't yet had the massive taxes placed on them.

If the only reason to legalize a substance is to bring in more tax money so that more can be spent - there's something wrong.

Really that's just the reason they are using to cover their asses after 70+ years of lieing.
If the govt. on any level legalized cannabis on it's own merits, they would be admitting to the lies they either started or supported.
Can you see the govt. saying "we lied, but now we'll tell the truth" ?
If saying they are legalizing for the taxes lets them think they are doing the right thing, then I have no problem with that.
Besides it won't be the first time cannabis was called upon to save our country.

YouTube - Hemp For Victory

I thought I'd throw this in for the hell of it.

YouTube - Ford Hemp Car

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KenThompson

15 years ago

Ok, here's the dope on this...

I believe CA taxes things like soft drinks and other valuable commodities.

So my theory is that with legalized weed, they'll have soaring sales of
potato chips, dip, candy, more soft drinks, and things of that nature.

Then they can really knock the hell out of them when they tax that stuff.

The Munchie Tax.

Makes complete sense from a CA perspective.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by sgtwhite

ThomM;

I hear This new law in California is sanctioned by Bill Clinton ; The only
restriction he insists on is nobody can INHALE.

Sarge

I think cinnamon buns are involved also Sarge

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Patrician

15 years ago

Do not inhale your cinnamon buns - may cause choking hazard.

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ThomM 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

Do not inhale your cinnamon buns - may cause choking hazard.

I could of used that advice a couple of hours ago
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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by sgtwhite

ThomM;

I hear This new law in California is sanctioned by Bill Clinton ; The only
restriction he insists on is nobody can INHALE.

Sarge

Just tell Clinton it increases sexual perfomance...He'll be inhaling deeply to the point of hyper-ventilating.

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eddane

15 years ago

Will it go through?

Ed

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whateverpedia

15 years ago

To date I've never seen two (or more) "hippies" pounding the snot out of each other at pub closing time.

The thing that makes me laugh is when an sports-man or -woman gets busted for smoking pot, they are described as taking a "performance enhancing substance".

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

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Andie

15 years ago

this thread has been more fun than Sat. cartoons

just love the discussion

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JohnMcCabe

15 years ago

Thom, thanks for posting that documentary.

I spent 17 years in rural Nebraska, along the Platte River valley. This area grew a lot of hemp during World War II, and there are still huge stands growing wild. Only now, they're considered noxious weeds.

From time to time, the state would come in and burn out particularly large stands. When word got out, cars would come from miles around trying to get downwind from the burn.

We had an old neighbor for awhile that was too cheap to kill the weeds in his pasture. So when the thistles got too thick, he'd spread the hemp seed and wait for the stand to choke out the thistles. Then he'd "report" the stand and let the state burn it out for him. By the following spring, he'd have a lush, weed-free (in both senses) pasture for his cows and a couple of old ponies.

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whateverpedia

15 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Thom, thanks for posting that documentary.

I spent 17 years in rural Nebraska, along the Platte River valley. This area grew a lot of hemp during World War II, and there are still huge stands growing wild. Only now, they're considered noxious weeds.

From time to time, the state would come in and burn out particularly large stands. When word got out, cars would come from miles around trying to get downwind from the burn.

We had an old neighbor for awhile that was too cheap to kill the weeds in his pasture. So when the thistles got too thick, he'd spread the hemp seed and wait for the stand to choke out the thistles. Then he'd "report" the stand and let the state burn it out for him. By the following spring, he'd have a lush, weed-free (in both senses) pasture for his cows and a couple of old ponies.

That reminds me of a sketch on a TV comedy in Australia a few years ago (can't remeber the name of the show), but the sketch showed you how to dig a hole in your backyard for a swimming pool.

First you dig a small hole and place what looks like human bones in it.

Then ring the police and tell them what you "found".

Within no time at all half the police force will be there digging up your backyard for you.

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atvking 15 years ago

i dont understand some people...

Q: what good is a prohibition when you can "score" on every corner anywhere anyway?

A: it gives criminals a lucrative market and politicians something to scare sheeple with

whether marijuana is good for you or not does not matter one little bit in this argument...people will use it regardless so the question is: can the US gov. realistically do anything about it? forget the bible and the hype and the scare tactics and whatever just look at reality:

USA drug market= 450 billion dollars/year and rising each and every year

so theres 2 possible scenarios:

1) marijuana will be sold more and more and the criminals will make money from this

2) marijuana will be sold more and more and the government will make money off of it

(in either case criminals will profit lol)
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Kella Bella

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

why not? if people are will to pay taxes and they are using anyway, whats the point of not taking the money?

I agree maybe if they make people pay taxes on it they won't have so many budget problems.

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VentureCapitalist

Banned 15 years ago

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by VentureCapitalist

Hi All, pleasure to meet you.

Marijuana use is one of the most sneakiest and insidious drug habits anyone could have.

Of course, I'm sure not everybody has the same reaction to it, but many of the younger folks I've seen using it get into the "pot lifestyle" and at the end of the night I've watched them quite well zonked-out into never-ending mental oblivion....and this continues day after day, night after night!

I've also met once formerly active older folks that have gone the same route as above. They spend lots of money on pot - to the tune of $400 to $600 per month - and never have any discretionary income. Mind you, these folks are not well off by any stretch of the imagination and I consider the money they spend on pot exorbitant for their means.

However, the cruelest blow is what it does to these folks initiative! They never start any new studies or advanced projects because they would rather wallow on the couch in front of the TV and do nothing...day after day, ad nauseum!

In many cases marijuana use kills potential productive futures leaving only a life lived in a fog via the lowest possible effort to become something better, something more!

I've seen the same thing with alcohol, but its legal.

I've never heard of someone smoking weed and beating their wife and kids, women don't trade sex for weed...atleast not ones that weren't going to give it up already, nobody is beating on their weed dealer's door at 2am with a couple 20's to feed the need.

And if they want to spend their lives in their underoos eating cheerios and watching cartoons, its their life to do that with.

I know lots of people that smoke and have just normal productive lives...but again, its about moderation. I mean seriously..have you evern been to a college in the u.s.? You'll probably have to actively search to find someone that isnt/hasnt smoked. If you're pounding down a quarter bag ever day or so, you're smoking too damn much. If you're smoking back to back j's on a daily basis, thats not responsible smoking and in the realm of legalization, its not just about the legal ability to smoke, its the legal ability to smoke responsibly.

From what i've seen of the movement in california, and any other legitimate legalization charge, they want to put basically the same rules on it as alcohol. Not at work, not at school, not while driving, nobody under 18..etc., which is the way it should be.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by VentureCapitalist

Hi All, pleasure to meet you.

Marijuana use is one of the most sneakiest and insidious drug habits anyone could have.

Of course, I'm sure not everybody has the same reaction to it, but many of the younger folks I've seen using it get into the "pot lifestyle" and at the end of the night I've watched them quite well zonked-out into never-ending mental oblivion....and this continues day after day, night after night!

I've also met once formerly active older folks that have gone the same route as above. They spend lots of money on pot - to the tune of $400 to $600 per month - and never have any discretionary income. Mind you, these folks are not well off by any stretch of the imagination and I consider the money they spend on pot exorbitant for their means.

However, the cruelest blow is what it does to these folks initiative! They never start any new studies or advanced projects because they would rather wallow on the couch in front of the TV and do nothing...day after day, ad nauseum!

In many cases marijuana use kills potential productive futures leaving only a life lived in a fog via the lowest possible effort to become something better, something more!

Sometimes I just want to scream when I read this bull**** and realize the person writing it probably believes it.
At 56 I still work harder and get more done in one day then most straight people half my age. I go 7 days a week 16 to 20 hours a day, and I'm not alone.

Stop reading the propaganda it does no one any good.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Sometimes I just want to scream when I read this bull**** and realize the person writing it probably believes it.
At 56 I still work harder and get more done in one day then most straight people half my age. I go 7 days a week 16 to 20 hours a day, and I'm not alone.

Stop reading the propaganda it does no one any good.

That's not propaganda, ThomM. That's based on experience. I've seen exactly the same kind of thing.

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ThomM 15 years ago

Originally Posted by ZigZag

That's not propaganda, ThomM. That's based on experience. I've seen exactly the same kind of thing.

Wow bull agreeing with bull. what a surprise.
So what exactly are your experiences that you keep talking about.
As for my reasons for wanting it legal, you couldn't be farther from the truth.

You've already pretty much stated that people who smoke aren't capable of coherent conversations so continuing a debate with you is pretty useless.
Besides you have already dismissed any proof I show you, remember this post?
"
Originally Posted by ZigZag
Thom, there are websites claiming that the government is run by UFOs and that Elvis is still alive. (That doesn't mean what they're peddling is true.)

There's a massive "cult" which believes 9/11 was something to do with the CIA. There's website, after website and whole groups of people who turn up for an annual conference, and all of them sincerely believe what they claim. (That doesn't mean it's true.)

Despite the fact that people keep providing evidence, after evidence, after evidence, they just can't comprehend that maybe, just maybe, they've got it wrong."
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whateverpedia

15 years ago

Isn't ZigZag the brand name of papers popular amongst those who roll joints?

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Kurt 15 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Isn't ZigZag the brand name of papers popular amongst those who roll joints?

Yes. I believe we call it "irony".

It's kind of like a guy named Jack Daniels that doesn't drink alcohol.
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KenThompson

15 years ago

Oh man...

Just read a few lines from double Z's posts.

Patently false. Trust me. lol.

The thing about hemp, economics, and buddies helping buddies. Now that's
a slice of truth. Disgusting.

Thinking about changing my username to EZ Widers so me and ZZ can
be buds.

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Kurt 15 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Thinking about changing my username to EZ Widers so me and ZZ can
be buds.

To me you'll always be "The Big Bamboo".

I guess that makes me "Tops"?
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Dave Patterson

15 years ago

Speaking of rolling papers...remember Cheech and Chongs "Big Bambu" album?

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KenThompson 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Patterson

Speaking of rolling papers...remember Cheech and Chongs "Big Bambu" album?

I do. Sort of. lol

Originally Posted by BoomBoomBoomBoom

To me you'll always be "The Big Bamboo".

I guess that makes me "Tops"?

Big Bamboo. I like that. I've had a vacancy under my name for
too long. Whaddya think?

I was drinking a cup of coffee and thinking about this thread and
Z2's comments.

Reminds me of Yogi Berra's famous quote:

"It's like Reefer Madness all over again."
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KimW 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Patterson

Speaking of rolling papers...remember Cheech and Chongs "Big Bambu" album?

I'd have to go check to be sure, but I think my copy still has the paper in it!
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Andie

15 years ago

Just want you guys to know, I find this thread highly entertaining :::applause:::

funny fellas...

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KenThompson

15 years ago

Michael, stuff like that never ceases to amaze me. I've read so
many similar stories involving all the same elements.

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Patrician

15 years ago

Well, they say 'IGNORANCE is Bliss'.

You must be very happy.

Just joking ha ha ha...

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MattRobson

15 years ago

Legalizing controlled substances will also reduce cartel murders in Ciudad Juarez (7 per day), and all over Mexico. It will drain organized crime of revenue.

It would also reduce the revenue of companies who manufacture pharmaceudicals to treat anxiety, depression, and whatever else Cannabis treats.

It would also be likely to reduce beer and alcohol consumption. Crime rackets, drug companies and alcohol companies are very strong interests in our country.

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Dalun

15 years ago

There's nothing wrong with using marijuana for any purpose. The pharamacutcial companies dont want people to use it because marijuana cant be patented.

Marijuana has been used for thousands of years by people all over the world. And only during the last 100 years, there has been a war to keep marijuana use suppress and with the aid of the media, people were led to believe marijuana is a dangerous drug.

There hasnt been any deaths related the use of marijuana but there have been thousands of the deaths and illness brought by the use of western medicene.

Marijuana (Weed) History and Facts

tabacco, a legalized drug, kills and causes numerous problems with the human body each year. while marijuana has yet to be reported in the death of a person who used it. but the media scares people into thinking that marijuana is an evil drug straight from the devil.
Annual Causes of Death in the United States | Drug War Facts

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tot29

15 years ago

I think it should be legalized at least for medical reasons. If cigarettes are legal, why not marijuana? Cigarettes kill thousands every year, many who are non smokers and breath it in second hand. Our society is so messed up.

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Kurt

15 years ago

About a week ago, Nederland became the third city in Colorado that voted to make marijuana legal. Denver and Breckenridge are the other two.

Durango is expected to become the 4th after an election this coming November.

I posted above that there were more medical marijuana dispensories in Denver than Starbucks...I think the actual number is more than 3x as many dispensories as Starbucks. Boulder has over 100 registered dispensaries, with a population of about 94,000 people. That's about 1 dispensary per 1000 people.

1000-1500 people per day in Colorado are applying for a medical marijuana card. That's 365,000-500,000 people a year, out of a population of about 5 million. The "conventional wisdom" said one out of ten people smoke weed, yet about 10% will sign up in Colorado in about a year...The "conventional" numbers don't add up.

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JohnMcCabe

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

I posted above that there were more medical marijuana dispensories in Denver than Starbucks...I think the actual number is more than 3x as many dispensories as Starbucks. Boulder has over 100 registered dispensaries, with a population of about 94,000 people. That's about 1 dispensary per 1000 people.

I've heard people say that the air in Denver smelled like burning leaves, although I never noticed it. I guess now we'll know which leaves.

Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "Rocky Mountain High", doesn't it?

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DopeSoap

15 years ago

I really think the whole country needs to legalize it, there is an incredible amount of money that could be made off of it for the government, it would create jobs for farmers and everyone in the industry, it would cripple drug cartels that traffic marijuana, and I would just plain enjoy it.

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NuMiS

15 years ago

Isn't it already legal? We have dispensaries everywhere. Even have vending machines with weed. My friend has a license to sell and grow.

Also, haven't you noticed that they let all the drug dealers out of prison?

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

why not? if people are will to pay taxes and they are using anyway, whats the point of not taking the money?

They ALREADY voted, LONG ago! SURE, it is under the guise of freedom from pain, but EVERYONE knows it is a JOKE! HECK, they sell ALL kinds of marijuana and recipes. If it were only for pain, it would be the most efficacious, and probably only in PILL form. They wouldn't have ANY recipes!

Steve

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

They ALREADY voted, LONG ago! SURE, it is under the guise of freedom from pain, but EVERYONE knows it is a JOKE! HECK, they sell ALL kinds of marijuana and recipes. If it were only for pain, it would be the most efficacious, and probably only in PILL form. They wouldn't have ANY recipes!

Steve

For some reason Steve your post reminded me of the debate I used to have with my orthopedic surgeon.
He always said legalizing cannabis for medical reasons was bull****.
After almost 20 years of trying to debate him he finally told me his reason for saying that.
He said that the benefits of smoking cannabis for medical reasons where valid, but to stop there and not totally legalize would be a travesty.
He was the only doctor I have ever seen since my family doctor when I was a kid who believed that exercise and diet could do more for you then doctor's, pill's and surgery. He only used surgery as a last resort unless it was the only option.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

They ALREADY voted, LONG ago! SURE, it is under the guise of freedom from pain, but EVERYONE knows it is a JOKE! HECK, they sell ALL kinds of marijuana and recipes. If it were only for pain, it would be the most efficacious, and probably only in PILL form. They wouldn't have ANY recipes!

Steve

Medical uses for marijuana arent a joke. The joke is all of the recreational smokers that try to get in on the medical side of it. I looked once at the requirements to get a prescription from a medical provider for marijuana. There wasnt a whole lot you couldnt get the prescription for.

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HeySal

15 years ago

And here recently one state, I believe it was Texas, put a guy away for 20 years for a small amount - a joint or something - less than an ounce anyway - because he was in a "no tolerance zone". No tolerance zone means cruel and unusual punishment is okay? People viciously kill and don't get that kind of time for it.

Yes there will be lots of money for the US when it's legalized - but think of all the jerks that are now making tons of money PERSONALLY by taking pay-offs from prisons and corporations such as DOW who will lose money if we have the means to make our own natural, strong fibers, and how those jerks will lose all that payola if it's legalized. Now where is the corporate prison complex going to find all that slave labor if they can't work pot smokers - can it be made up for by arresting and incarcerating people who can't afford car insurance, or maybe the new health coverage?
Can DOW make up for losses on synthetic fibers? Really, we are being SOOO selfish not considering the loses these poor politicians, judges, and corporations will suffer if we legalize pot. :rolleyes:

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PeterDunin

14 years ago

I think they should vote to legalize it because it would stop all the dealers cashing in and lets be honest drinking causes alot more of a drain on the goverments money and resources.

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HeySal

14 years ago

Mexico is in a form of civil war with the drug cartels right now -- and 3 counties of Arizona are shut off as unsafe for Americans! They have been completely taken over by cartels and other illegals. America is loaded down with these cartel criminals right now................

Mexico is highly considering legalization. The Former President is pushing the issue real hard. Especially now that a bunch of cops bodily removed several corrupt superiors that were working under the wire with the cartels. People down there are sick of getting slaughtered and they are as sick of corruption in office as we are........

So - what happens if Mexico legalizes and we don't? The SW USA will become a blood bath.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Mexico is in a form of civil war with the drug cartels right now -- and 3 counties of Arizona are shut off as unsafe for Americans! They have been completely taken over by cartels and other illegals. America is loaded down with these cartel criminals right now................

Mexico is highly considering legalization. The Former President is pushing the issue real hard. Especially now that a bunch of cops bodily removed several corrupt superiors that were working under the wire with the cartels. People down there are sick of getting slaughtered and they are as sick of corruption in office as we are........

So - what happens if Mexico legalizes and we don't? The SW USA will become a blood bath.

It was like vigilantism, but it was cops...And I agree it's a sign that Mexico has reached the breaking point and the good guys are starting to fight back.

Legalize drugs and bring our military home from Japan and put them on the border, where then can spend their paychecks in American pizza joints and American car lots (and Mexican strip joints on weekends).

Sign a treaty that either side can pursue someone into the other country. Note that this is only for a direct pursuit (car chase), so the cartel guys can't be "safe" by crossing an imaginary line when running away.

One of the pundits stated that Phoenix now has the second highest kidnapping rate of any city in the World, and it's all due to the drug cartels. Those that supported the "War on drugs" for the past 30 years should be proud...

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HeySal

14 years ago

Those that supported the "War on drugs" for the past 30 years should be proud...

Those who insist on refusing to support the borders and immigration laws should be, too. Those laws are there for a reason and right now the entire population of the US has had their safety compromised - just what we are losing our rights over...safety. Yeah right.

One thing is sure - if Mexico legalizes, we have to follow suit right away or there is going to be more chaos here than there is down there and you can count on that. Perhaps we can bend to the Mexican president's huffing and puffing about our immigration laws and just adopt theirs as well. That should shut him up on that one REAL fast.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

WASHINGTON — The Senate agreed Thursday to add $600 million to the effort to stop the flow of illegal immigrants across the U.S. Mexican border.

The money would be used for such purposes as adding 1,500 new enforcement agents...

... and deploying unmanned aerial drones to improve border surveillance.

The voice vote to pass the emergency spending came in the final hours before the Senate leaves for its monthlong summer break.

Its sponsor, Democratic Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, said it would boost border spending 10 percent above 2010 levels.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

WASHINGTON — The Senate agreed Thursday to add $600 million to the effort to stop the flow of illegal immigrants across the U.S. Mexican border.

The money would be used for such purposes as adding 1,500 new enforcement agents...

... and deploying unmanned aerial drones to improve border surveillance.

The voice vote to pass the emergency spending came in the final hours before the Senate leaves for its monthlong summer break.

Its sponsor, Democratic Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, said it would boost border spending 10 percent above 2010 levels.

My mistake.

The bill has not been signed yet but it was just sent to the WH where it will be signed soon - perhaps this week.

Update: The bill will be signed on Friday.

The $600 million border security measure would fund the hiring of 1,000 new Border Patrol agents to be deployed at critical areas along the border, ...

...250 more Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents, and ...

...250 more Customs and Border Protection officers.

It provides for new communications equipment and greater use of unmanned surveillance drones.

There are currently seven such drones along the border.

Almost one-third of the money goes to the Justice Department to help agencies such as the FBI, the DEA and the ATF deal with drug dealers and human traffickers.

The bill is paid for...

... by raising fees on foreign-based personnel companies that use U.S. visa programs, including the popular H-1B program, to bring skilled workers to the United States.

India says higher fees would discriminate against its companies and workers.

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Patrician

14 years ago

Illegal Immigration is far more dangerous than 100 kilos of pot ever could be, and enforcing our borders will certainly help. It's about time.

(we do quite well at growing our own - even though it is reported that cartels have even set up shop in our national forests - what fricking nerve)

Note as well that the murderous cartels are involved in a lot of other DANGEROUS drugs like cocaine and heroin. These drugs do kill and should be eradicated along with the people who sell them.

Think about if pot was legal how many innocent, non-violent 'offenders' (who did nothing but possession/use) might be let out of prison, too. More money to incarcerate and deport the illegals.

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Hesaidblissfully

14 years ago

I think all drugs should be legalized and regulated (or if not all, then the ones that have the greatest demand). Not because I think people should use drugs, but because the "War on Drugs" is simply an unwinnable war, and prohibition causes more societal problems then regulated legal drugs would. Even if maijuana were globally legalized tomorrow, gangs, cartels and organized crime organizations would just focus their attention on other drugs. Legalizing pot might be a step in the right direction, but it's not a solution.

There are certain acts that should unquestionably be prohibited (murder, violent crime, human trafficking, etc.), but law enforcement needs to choose it's battles, and it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's been paying attention that TWOD, in the form of prohibition and it's enforcement, is one battle we're better off not fighting.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Also, the biggest source of income for the Taliban and Al Qaeda is drugs, and the people they are terrorizing are the countries who are the biggest buyers of these drugs. Want to hit the terrorists where it counts? legalize drugs, and their income will largely dry up.

Originally Posted by Hesaidblissfully

I think all drugs should be legalized and regulated (or if not all, then the ones that have the greatest demand). Not because I think people should use drugs, but because the "War on Drugs" is simply an unwinnable war, and prohibition causes more societal problems then regulated legal drugs would. Even if maijuana were globally legalized tomorrow, gangs, cartels and organized crime organizations would just focus their attention on other drugs. Legalizing pot might be a step in the right direction, but it's not a solution.

There are certain acts that should unquestionably be prohibited (murder, violent crime, human trafficking, etc.), but law enforcement needs to choose it's battles, and it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's been paying attention that TWOD, in the form of prohibition and it's enforcement, is one battle we're better off not fighting.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Also, the biggest source of income for the Taliban and Al Qaeda is drugs, and the people they are terrorizing are the countries who are the biggest buyers of these drugs. Want to hit the terrorists where it counts? legalize drugs, and their income will largely dry up.

Actually it would probably have the opposite effect. Its not legal now and al qaeda and the taliban are making enough income from it to obviously be noticeable. The only 'down' side for them is getting their stuff confiscated...thats where they probably lose the most money in the process. Take away the 'threat' of losing product to police intervention, and there's nothing to stop them from going at it full bore. And no doubt as fast as they can produce, there will be someone to buy.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Actually it would probably have the opposite effect. Its not legal now and al qaeda and the taliban are making enough income from it to obviously be noticeable. The only 'down' side for them is getting their stuff confiscated...thats where they probably lose the most money in the process. Take away the 'threat' of losing product to police intervention, and there's nothing to stop them from going at it full bore. And no doubt as fast as they can produce, there will be someone to buy.

I'm not positive, but I don't think it's the Taliban producing heroine in Afghanastan. It goes totally against what they stand for. I'm more inclined to believe they would give the death penalty to anyone found with illicit drugs.

I've forgotten their cultural name, but I believe it's the rivals of the Taliban that are growing the plants.

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Lawrh

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

I'm not positive, but I don't think it's the Taliban producing heroine in Afghanastan. It goes totally against what they stand for. I'm more inclined to believe they would give the death penalty to anyone found with illicit drugs.

I've forgotten their cultural name, but I believe it's the rivals of the Taliban that are growing the plants.

Kurt is right. Prior to being invaded the Taliban had ended opium production and halted all movement of heroin through Afghan territory. After the invasion one of the first things done was to restore opium production and open the heroin highway to Russia and Europe.

The Taliban represent one of the worst examples of what happens when religion gains political power, but to suggest that they profit from the illegal drug industry is completely false.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lawrh

Kurt is right. Prior to being invaded the Taliban had ended opium production and halted all movement of heroin through Afghan territory. After the invasion one of the first things done was to restore opium production and open the heroin highway to Russia and Europe.

The Taliban represent one of the worst examples of what happens when religion gains political power, but to suggest that they profit from the illegal drug industry is completely false.

I really find it hard to believe that afghanistan produces 93% of the worlds opium with an export value of over 60 billion a year and the Taliban doesnt have their hand in it.

You dont get rpg's and AK's from the weapons fairy. Regardless of their religious beliefs, maintaining even a minimally armed group of soldiers isn't cheap, and most likely allah turns a blind eye to how money gets in the coffers, just as every other 'god' does when the power bill comes due.

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Lawrh

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I really find it hard to believe that afghanistan produces 93% of the worlds opium with an export value of over 60 billion a year and the Taliban doesnt have their hand in it.

You dont get rpg's and AK's from the weapons fairy. Regardless of their religious beliefs, maintaining even a minimally armed group of soldiers isn't cheap, and most likely allah turns a blind eye to how money gets in the coffers, just as every other 'god' does when the power bill comes due.

I realize you have no interest in facts but here is the full story -

Opium production in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A notable excerpt -

Rise of the Taliban (1994-2001)

During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,500 metric tons in 1999.However,in July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, collaborating with the United Nations to eradicate heroin production in Afghanistan, declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season.

Currently the US is trying to get the President of Afghanistan, Karzai, to stop supporting the growers and traffikers. The Taliban are indeed using opium to finance their efforts but they are small players compared to the warlords and the government. It is more of a competition for the goodwill of the people, with the US full participants in the game.

It's the warlords and the government that you need to worry about regarding opium. For the Taliban it is simply a wartime source of funding.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lawrh

I realize you have no interest in facts but here is the full story -

Opium production in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A notable excerpt -

Rise of the Taliban (1994-2001)

During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,500 metric tons in 1999.However,in July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, collaborating with the United Nations to eradicate heroin production in Afghanistan, declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season.

Currently the US is trying to get the President of Afghanistan, Karzai, to stop supporting the growers and traffikers. The Taliban are indeed using opium to finance their efforts but they are small players compared to the warlords and the government. It is more of a competition for the goodwill of the people, with the US full participants in the game.

It's the warlords and the government that you need to worry about regarding opium. For the Taliban it is simply a wartime source of funding.

You said it yourself. Thanks

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Are you saying it goes against their religion? :-) Well, just about everything they do goes against their religion. They are just a bunch of power hungry murderous thugs. Yes, they do make money from drugs as does Al Qaeda.

Originally Posted by Kurt

I'm not positive, but I don't think it's the Taliban producing heroine in Afghanastan. It goes totally against what they stand for. I'm more inclined to believe they would give the death penalty to anyone found with illicit drugs.

I've forgotten their cultural name, but I believe it's the rivals of the Taliban that are growing the plants.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Actually it would probably have the opposite effect. Its not legal now and al qaeda and the taliban are making enough income from it to obviously be noticeable. The only 'down' side for them is getting their stuff confiscated...thats where they probably lose the most money in the process. Take away the 'threat' of losing product to police intervention, and there's nothing to stop them from going at it full bore. And no doubt as fast as they can produce, there will be someone to buy.

The thing is Mike, most countries follow the US in drug policies.
Actually we force them to.
When we legalize other countries will follow suit.
This will open other countries and regions in those countries to produce legally what the Taliban does illegally.
So now the question is would you buy from a legal source where you don't have any repercussions or an illegal source where you do.
Plus we can stop stupid things like this from happening.
HIGHTIMES.COM > Rick Simpson Seeks Political Refuge in Europe

Notice Rick isn't a young 'hippie' or an old one for that matter.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

The thing is Mike, most countries follow the US in drug policies.
Actually we force them to.
When we legalize other countries will follow suit.
This will open other countries and regions in those countries to produce legally what the Taliban does illegally.
So now the question is would you buy from a legal source where you don't have any repercussions or an illegal source where you do.
Plus we can stop stupid things like this from happening.
HIGHTIMES.COM > Rick Simpson Seeks Political Refuge in Europe

Notice Rick isn't a young 'hippie' or an old one for that matter.

Yeah, but when we legalize and other follows, that might not always be a good thing. Have you ever seen what a s. american cocaine mill looks like? I've had the misfortune to see one once. Doped up illiterate locals that get 'paid' in a well supported cocaine addiction 24-7 and retaining the ability to draw breath while being lorded over by a small contingent of armed individuals.

We have a 'slave trade' that makes everything america wants. Those 100 tennis shoes on the shelf are made by someone getting paid enough to survive. Not live decent for their work that is makng the company so much money...but survive. Now granted that's not true slavery, but nobody can honestly dispute the amount that's paid in relationship to what is earned for the product and the conditions in which its made, is a 'warm and fuzzy' effort that makes everyone except those doing the work..feel good about the arraingment.

I really don't think that if the floodgates are opened on ALL drugs that it would be as great of an idea as everyone thinks.

maybe if we could honestly and unquestionably lock down the flow of drugs into this country, so that all the production was here, that might not be as bad.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Yeah, but when we legalize and other follows, that might not always be a good thing. Have you ever seen what a s. american cocaine mill looks like? I've had the misfortune to see one once. Doped up illiterate locals that get 'paid' in a well supported cocaine addiction 24-7 and retaining the ability to draw breath while being lorded over by a small contingent of armed individuals.

We have a 'slave trade' that makes everything america wants. Those 100 tennis shoes on the shelf are made by someone getting paid enough to survive. Not live decent for their work that is makng the company so much money...but survive. Now granted that's not true slavery, but nobody can honestly dispute the amount that's paid in relationship to what is earned for the product and the conditions in which its made, is a 'warm and fuzzy' effort that makes everyone except those doing the work..feel good about the arraingment.

I really don't think that if the floodgates are opened on ALL drugs that it would be as great of an idea as everyone thinks.

maybe if we could honestly and unquestionably lock down the flow of drugs into this country, so that all the production was here, that might not be as bad.

That's another angle that's not talked about much.
One point though is we can never have any type of real control while any drug is illegal.
Plus the idea that making something like drugs illegal deters use is ludicrous. I think the current situation proves that like it did when alcohol was illegal.
By control I don't mean govt. control, but people control.
Now if you happen to do coke, you can't really choose where the coke you buy comes from or who makes it.
But given a choice of suppliers you can boycott operations that exploit their workers, same as you can do with sneakers.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

That's another angle that's not talked about much.
One point though is we can never have any type of real control while any drug is illegal.
Plus the idea that making something like drugs illegal deters use is ludicrous. I think the current situation proves that like it did when alcohol was illegal.
By control I don't mean govt. control, but people control.
Now if you happen to do coke, you can't really choose where the coke you buy comes from or who makes it.
But given a choice of suppliers you can boycott operations that exploit their workers, same as you can do with sneakers.

Personally, I don't have any problem with marijuana being legal. I think that as long as it is used as responsibly as people use alcohol and people using it are held to at the least the same standards (no driving, no going to work high..etc) then it should be legalized.

However there is no way in hell anyone can responsibly use crack, meth, coke..etc. Part of their 'allure' for production is their addictive qualities that locks in a client base to the point of being truly detrimental to their health, which in turn will be a drain on their local resources to the point that someone that ISNT completely retarded and addicted because of their own actions may come up short when they need help

If someone wants to let their addiction eat them alive, I think thats their right. But i also think that it should be my right to tell them that its not my job to clean up their cracked out corpse when they are done, or spend my tax money to help limp them along as they ingest even more addictive crap into their bodies, eating up taxpayer resources along the way until they finally kick off and taxpayers have to sport the bill to put their 90lb corpse in a box

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Personally, I don't have any problem with marijuana being legal. I think that as long as it is used as responsibly as people use alcohol and people using it are held to at the least the same standards (no driving, no going to work high..etc) then it should be legalized.

However there is no way in hell anyone can responsibly use crack, meth, coke..etc. Part of their 'allure' for production is their addictive qualities that locks in a client base to the point of being truly detrimental to their health, which in turn will be a drain on their local resources to the point that someone that ISNT completely retarded and addicted because of their own actions may come up short when they need help

If someone wants to let their addiction eat them alive, I think thats their right. But i also think that it should be my right to tell them that its not my job to clean up their cracked out corpse when they are done, or spend my tax money to help limp them along as they ingest even more addictive crap into their bodies, eating up taxpayer resources along the way until they finally kick off and taxpayers have to sport the bill to put their 90lb corpse in a box

But it's ok with you to spend your tax dollars locking them up and supporting them?
You see that's the weak point of that argument.
Now the only people making money off hard drug users are those who sell or supply the drugs. As soon as we arrest them for what is basically a medical problem it costs the taxpayers money.
So by keeping them illegal and arresting users, you are spending your tax dollars on them.
We currently have addiction programs funded from taxes on tobacco and alcohol to help get treatment for those drug users. Both of those drugs have been proven dangerous and alcoholics can be and are a burden on society. Not to mention the tax dollars spent treating tobacco users who can't afford treatments for cancer, etc.
The purpose of legalizing hard drugs isn't to say they are ok to use.
It is to be able to provide the treatment needed to kick those drugs.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

But it's ok with you to spend your tax dollars locking them up and supporting them?
You see that's the weak point of that argument.
Now the only people making money off hard drug users are those who sell or supply the drugs. As soon as we arrest them for what is basically a medical problem it costs the taxpayers money.
So by keeping them illegal and arresting users, you are spending your tax dollars on them.
We currently have addiction programs funded from taxes on tobacco and alcohol to help get treatment for those drug users. Both of those drugs have been proven dangerous and alcoholics can be and are a burden on society. Not to mention the tax dollars spent treating tobacco users who can't afford treatments for cancer, etc.
The purpose of legalizing hard drugs isn't to say they are ok to use.
It is to be able to provide the treatment needed to kick those drugs.

And let's add that with the new private prisons, whose purpose is profit, that when probation hearings come up, the prisons have motivation to keep people in prison. Prisons are something else that should not be private and for profit in a free society.

If I had my way, here's what I'd do...I'd legalize mj, coke and heroin, and their derivities.

Once a year, you'd have to do a few simple things:

Pass a physical, recite a 1-800 number "hot line" for drug treatment, pass a simple test about the dangers and symptoms of your drug use, and pay a small license fee.

The dr. giving the physical doesn't preach. He/she just gives the facts. They also take a photo and each year you have to look at how you've changed.

The test is simple and just a reenforcement of the health problems with each.

Memorizing and reciting the 1-800 number is also required. And a quality rehab system set up to actually help people with no one turned down or put on a waiting list.

I would also support if someone did a crime while high (or drunk), they would be eligible for twice the penalty, since we'll have room for them in prison. We don't need to do away with guns, we need to do away with drunks and crack heads with guns, they're really the ones killing and robbing everyone.

This system is funded by the taxes and fees on the drugs. The money we'll save from the legal system goes into the general fund to help pay for education and job creation, the two proven ways to best fight crime and entitlement programs.

It's cheaper to give a kid a 4 year college education, all expenses paid, than a single year in prison. Yet we create drug dealers with our policies, put them in prison and then outsource tech jobs to India. Why not train our kids for these tech jobs?

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

But it's ok with you to spend your tax dollars locking them up and supporting them?
You see that's the weak point of that argument.
Now the only people making money off hard drug users are those who sell or supply the drugs. As soon as we arrest them for what is basically a medical problem it costs the taxpayers money.
So by keeping them illegal and arresting users, you are spending your tax dollars on them.
We currently have addiction programs funded from taxes on tobacco and alcohol to help get treatment for those drug users. Both of those drugs have been proven dangerous and alcoholics can be and are a burden on society. Not to mention the tax dollars spent treating tobacco users who can't afford treatments for cancer, etc.
The purpose of legalizing hard drugs isn't to say they are ok to use.
It is to be able to provide the treatment needed to kick those drugs.

There is no way you are ever going to convince me that its a good idea to open up the door on a product that has been designed and created specifically to addict you, save your breath.

Like i said, weed is no big deal, but there are only 2 kinds of people that think drugs like crack, coke and meth being legal is a good idea, junkies and dealers.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

There is no way you are ever going to convince me that its a good idea to open up the door on a product that has been designed and created specifically to addict you, save your breath.

Like i said, weed is no big deal, but there are only 2 kinds of people that think drugs like crack, coke and meth being legal is a good idea, junkies and dealers.

Well I think it's a good idea and I'm neither.
Personally I'd be happy if they never existed.
But they do and I think it would be better to deal with the problem then shoving it under the rug like being illegal does.
That's the difference in my approach to yours.
Mine tries to do something about the problem.
Yours just gives you another thing to bitch about.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Well I think it's a good idea and I'm neither.
Personally I'd be happy if they never existed.
But they do and I think it would be better to deal with the problem then shoving it under the rug like being illegal does.
That's the difference in my approach to yours.
Mine tries to do something about the problem.
Yours just gives you another thing to bitch about.

Full access to stuff like meth isnt 'doing something' about the problem, any more than letting grass grow over a car in your yard hiding it from your bitching neighbors is 'doing something' about the problem.

The difference between mine and yours is you think that free access to highly addictive substances will somehow make the market 'level out'.

You've probably done a little blow before right? Or if not you know people that have. I did a little in my younger stupid days, and you know what I always thought was funny? When people were sitting around having a double 8 ball kind of weekend snorting lines, then they would do like a line or two and say 'i'll save the rest till later'. 'later' ends up being like 5 minutes.

If you make it where any junkie can walk into their local store and get cranked up, think of how much fun that will be in your neighborhood at 4am when the neighbors who have been snorting breakfast lunch and dinner for the last 2 days decided they want to party..and the whole friggen block needs to get up and party with them. But they will be easy to talk out of it right? Because everyone that riding the rails is EVER so easy to talk logically to? Sure, that shouldnt be a problem at all.

THey dont want to listen when you tell them they are too loud? Well call the cops! No doubt the cops are just estatic to deal with an individual or a group that has enough dope in them to power a small city and who just doesnt want to go inside tonight right?

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ThomM

14 years ago

You think I want hard drugs to be as easy to get as bread, yet that isn't my intent at all.
What I'm saying is addiction is a medical problem, not a legal one.
Even the monkeys in the zoo understand that.
Today you can get treatment for alcohol and tobacco addiction without a problem. Yet you can get arrested for having a different addiction.
That makes sense to you?
You also seem to think that the problems hard drugs cause will only magically appear when they are legalized.
You seem to think addicts don't have easy access to their drugs now.
You seem to be far removed from reality.
Your way means business as usual.
Gangs, cartel's, and punks will continue to control the drugs and profit from it. People will still be killed in drug wars, even little kids. But I guess you're fine with that.
My way takes that away and allows addicts to get help without any fear or repercussions. It doesn't make the drugs easier to get, but controls where they can be got.
Again, your way just continues the problem and gives you something to bitch about.
My way attempts to deal with the problem in a way that could be the solution. But then you wouldn't have something to bitch about.

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Full access to stuff like meth isnt 'doing something' about the problem, any more than letting grass grow over a car in your yard hiding it from your bitching neighbors is 'doing something' about the problem.

The difference between mine and yours is you think that free access to highly addictive substances will somehow make the market 'level out'.

You've probably done a little blow before right? Or if not you know people that have. I did a little in my younger stupid days, and you know what I always thought was funny? When people were sitting around having a double 8 ball kind of weekend snorting lines, then they would do like a line or two and say 'i'll save the rest till later'. 'later' ends up being like 5 minutes.

If you make it where any junkie can walk into their local store and get cranked up, think of how much fun that will be in your neighborhood at 4am when the neighbors who have been snorting breakfast lunch and dinner for the last 2 days decided they want to party..and the whole friggen block needs to get up and party with them. But they will be easy to talk out of it right? Because everyone that riding the rails is EVER so easy to talk logically to? Sure, that shouldnt be a problem at all.

THey dont want to listen when you tell them they are too loud? Well call the cops! No doubt the cops are just estatic to deal with an individual or a group that has enough dope in them to power a small city and who just doesnt want to go inside tonight right?

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

You think I want hard drugs to be as easy to get as bread, yet that isn't my intent at all.
What I'm saying is addiction is a medical problem, not a legal one.
Even the monkeys in the zoo understand that.

Addiction is a medical problem CAUSED by a legal one. Nobody is born addicted. Addiction isn't a hereditary disease, you dont pick it up from sitting on a toilet seat or not washing your hands.

Today you can get treatment for alcohol and tobacco addiction without a problem. Yet you can get arrested for having a different addiction.
That makes sense to you?

No...you get arrested for BREAKING THE LAW BY BUYING THE DRUGS not by being addicted to them.

You also seem to think that the problems hard drugs cause will only magically appear when they are legalized.

No, i think that the problems that already exist will be magnified exponentially when people are no longer worried about the legal consequences.

You seem to think addicts don't have easy access to their drugs now.
You seem to be far removed from reality.
Your way means business as usual.
Gangs, cartel's, and punks will continue to control the drugs and profit from it. People will still be killed in drug wars, even little kids. But I guess you're fine with that.

but you're alright with opening the valve on production and sales?

My way takes that away and allows addicts to get help without any fear or repercussions. It doesn't make the drugs easier to get, but controls where they can be got.
Again, your way just continues the problem and gives you something to bitch about.
My way attempts to deal with the problem in a way that could be the solution. But then you wouldn't have something to bitch about.

Show me a rehab that will arrest you for walking in of your own accord for treatment. There isn't any. The fact is that junkies wont look for help until they are already wrapped up in the legal system for breaking law.

The 'poor junkie' approach doesnt work with me. Nobody made then stick that straw up their nose or that needle in their arm. They got to where they are because of their own stupidity or inability to control their own personalities. Stop the drugs, stop the addiction, but dont cry about how people are being persecuted for getting treatment when they only look for treatment after they have broken a law. You'll probably be hard pressed to find an addict that doesn't think they are 'in control' and 'can stop whenever they want' to want to go into treatment, but in reality it takes standing in front of a judge or behind bars to make most of them 'want to'

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Addiction is a medical problem CAUSED by a legal one. Nobody is born addicted. Addiction isn't a hereditary disease, you dont pick it up from sitting on a toilet seat or not washing your hands.

No...you get arrested for BREAKING THE LAW BY BUYING THE DRUGS not by being addicted to them.
No, i think that the problems that already exist will be magnified exponentially when people are no longer worried about the legal consequences.
but you're alright with opening the valve on production and sales?
Show me a rehab that will arrest you for walking in of your own accord for treatment. There isn't any. The fact is that junkies wont look for help until they are already wrapped up in the legal system for breaking law.

The 'poor junkie' approach doesnt work with me. Nobody made then stick that straw up their nose or that needle in their arm. They got to where they are because of their own stupidity or inability to control their own personalities. Stop the drugs, stop the addiction, but dont cry about how people are being persecuted for getting treatment when they only look for treatment after they have broken a law. You'll probably be hard pressed to find an addict that doesn't think they are 'in control' and 'can stop whenever they want' to want to go into treatment, but in reality it takes standing in front of a judge or behind bars to make most of them 'want to'

That first line makes no sense at all. I can't come up with anything there that makes sense and could reply to.

So from the rest of your post I gather you think just buying or doing the drugs are the only illegal acts these people are committing, really???
You also seem to think that making those drugs legal will make any other act they commit that is currently illegal legal?
Mike these people are no different from alcoholics. They got there the same way and do the same stupid things drunks do.
You say stop the drugs, let me ask you. We've tried for over 100 years to stop the drugs by making them illegal, how's that working for ya.
Like I've said my way=possible solution.
Your way=more bitchin.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

There is no way you are ever going to convince me that its a good idea to open up the door on a product that has been designed and created specifically to addict you, save your breath.

Like i said, weed is no big deal, but there are only 2 kinds of people that think drugs like crack, coke and meth being legal is a good idea, junkies and dealers.

My vote for logically fallacy of the week. Try googling "ad hominem".

There's no way you'll convince me your stupid war on drugs wasn't one of the worst policies in US history, or that I should have to pay for prisons and drug treatment when people like YOU give the money to the drug dealers instead. YOU are the enabler, at least man-up and admit it.

And you've made it perfectly clear in the past you won't let facts get in the way of your opinions. Your only argument against drugs is that you "think they are bad" and you're more than willing to hurt society to prove that point. Present some facts for a change. I dare you.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

My vote for logically fallacy of the week. Try googling "ad hominem".

There's no way you'll convince me your stupid war on drugs wasn't one of the worst policies in US history, or that I should have to pay for prisons and drug treatment when people like YOU give the money to the drug dealers instead. YOU are the enabler, at least man-up and admit it.

And you've made it perfectly clear in the past you won't let facts get in the way of your opinions. Your only argument against drugs is that you "think they are bad" and you're more than willing to hurt society to prove that point. Present some facts for a change. I dare you.

The only fact you need to be concerned with is that drug cartels dont get stronger because nobody is buying. Right now you've got drug cartels that are vying for control for the entire country of Mexico and most of their product is destined for the states. You do the math.

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Hesaidblissfully

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

However there is no way in hell anyone can responsibly use crack, meth, coke..etc. Part of their 'allure' for production is their addictive qualities that locks in a client base to the point of being truly detrimental to their health, which in turn will be a drain on their local resources to the point that someone that ISNT completely retarded and addicted because of their own actions may come up short when they need help

If someone wants to let their addiction eat them alive, I think thats their right. But i also think that it should be my right to tell them that its not my job to clean up their cracked out corpse when they are done, or spend my tax money to help limp them along as they ingest even more addictive crap into their bodies, eating up taxpayer resources along the way until they finally kick off and taxpayers have to sport the bill to put their 90lb corpse in a box

The key question to ask is:

Do the societal costs of Prohibition outweigh the societal costs of legalization?

Legalization doesn't mean endorsement, it's simply a logical (IMO) response to the acceptance of the fact that Prohibition is a costly and ultimately ineffective solution to the drug problem.

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ThomM

14 years ago

This could be a big boost for legalization.
House Passes National Criminal Justice Commission Act - Rep. Delahunt

Despite the fact that crime rates have declined nationally over the past two decades, the U.S. currently incarcerates more than 2.3 million individuals--the highest rate in the world. Studies show that by 2011, prison expenditures will cost taxpayers almost $75 billion.

Of course the last time a commission of this type was formed, they recommended legalizing Cannabis and where ignored

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

Illegal Immigration is far more dangerous than 100 kilos of pot ever could be, and enforcing our borders will certainly help. It's about time.

(we do quite well at growing our own - even though it is reported that cartels have even set up shop in our national forests - what fricking nerve)

Note as well that the murderous cartels are involved in a lot of other DANGEROUS drugs like cocaine and heroin. These drugs do kill and should be eradicated along with the people who sell them.

Think about if pot was legal how many innocent, non-violent 'offenders' (who did nothing but possession/use) might be let out of prison, too. More money to incarcerate and deport the illegals.

Then we better make alcohol illegal also, since it's more dangerous than coke.

And heroine is the best pain killer known to man. If someone is terminally ill with cancer, or has servere burns, who are we to say those people can't have access to what's best to ease their pain?

Before 1919, opium and heroin were consider to be a vice, not a crime. And before that time, the US Supreme Court felt that what we put in our bodies was none of the gov's business.

Since that time, the use of legal drug use has dropped. In the 1920's, over 75% of Americans smoked cigrettes and drank regularly. Both those numbers have fallen to around 20%.

On the other hand, the drugs that were made illegal have dramatically risen in use. Making them illegal made (makes) them more popular. In the 1980's, xctasy was made illegal. Within something like 3 months, it's usage went up 600% at the University of Colorado, because now it had "street cred".

If anyone can provide concrete proof that shows making drugs illegal actually helps, I'd like to see them. Until then, history shows that illegal drugs increase in usage and the legalized drugs like alcohol and tobacco decreases.

Plus, I don't care if my neighbor is a crack head. What he does in his own home isn't my business. Just don't drive when I'm on the road, steal my stuff or hassle me.

And if we legalize it, we can tax it. And if we tax it, crack heads and heroine users can pay for the drug treatment centers, not the rest of us pay for prisons, which we do now. Then, we'll have more room in the prisons to keep the drug users that commit crimes while high.

This would give every addict access to the medical treatment they need, without costing the rest of society a penny. They could get treatment knowing they have a medical illness, not a legal problem.

Shouldn't the medical society be treating addicts, and not the law enforcement agency?

Shouldn't we get the tax money instead of the drug cartels? Didn't we learn anything from Al Capone and all the other prohibition-era murderers?

I've read that well over 90% of addicts in the US are functional. They hold jobs, they pay taxes and obey the other laws.

I'm sick of watching shows like COPS where every arrest is because someone has a bag of week or a few rocks of crack, ruining their lives by telling them they can't use coke or heroine in a "free" country.

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Patrician

14 years ago

I see the usual paradox to everything - 'damned if you do and damned if you don't'.

..and I guess there are good points to legalizing evil drugs or not - like ya say, can't be any more evil than alcohol and cigarettes and the death and devastation they may cause. I do have a problem subsidizing addicts but I suppose it makes more sense than incarceration.

Right now though there are two things on the table that need immediate attention.

Enforcing our borders is #1 for so many reasons. Primary is getting the evil drug cartels off the planet - can we do that? No it is just the Mexican border we are talking, but that would be a good start and would solve multiple issues with illegals.

Legalizing POT is #2.

I see this going around and around in circles and now we are talking about freaking Taliban - and as far as I know they are not on the border -

This is just a microcosm where = as usual nothing will change or be resolved because we will just keep going around all the side issues and paying lip service when people make noise but that is about it. FIRST THINGS FIRST. Let's see what happens when we legalize pot.

I gotta admit I would love everything LEGAL AND CONTROLLED - just to put all the evil DeSpicables out of business. Dang - what would they do?

uhhhhmmm - maybe worse than selling drugs and trying to take over our country by thwarting our laws and ruining our economy. Maybe they will just be up front about it and kill all of us outright in Act II of Genocide of the Native Americans.

OY (carumba)

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Regarding opium and the Taliban:

The words "Taliban" and "opium" are closely associated in people's minds. Without opium there would be no Taliban in the potent form in which it stands.

Rep. Tierney: DoD Dollars Rival Opium as Taliban Funds Source, Military Complicit | War Is A Crime .org

Although there is
wide variation across the war theater, drug profits flow up the chain of command within the
Taliban and other insurgent and extremist organizations operating along the Afghanistan-
Pakistan border. These funds appear to play a key role in funding the operational costs of the
Taliban and many of these other groups.

http://www.usip.org/files/taliban_opium.pdf

The Taliban have provided an Islamic sanction for farmers ... to grow even more opium, even though the Koran forbids Muslims from producing or imbibing intoxicants.

Another source claims opium production was cut back by the Taliban not to prevent its use but to increase its price, and thus increase the income of Afghan poppy farmers and tax revenue.

Taliban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Afghanistan has produced so much opium in recent years that the Taliban are cutting poppy cultivation and stockpiling raw opium in an effort to support prices and preserve a major source of financing for the insurgency, Antonio Maria Costa, the executive director of the United Nations drug office, says.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/28/wo...t/28opium.html

"Completely false" huh? I've personally seen video reports where the peasant Afghan opium growers say the Taliban is involved completely.

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Chris1203

14 years ago

I believe that it's about time that someone legalized marijuana. I have never been able to figure out why they made marijuane illegal in the first place!

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ThomM 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris1203

I believe that it's about time that someone legalized marijuana. I have never been able to figure out why they made marijuane illegal in the first place!

I put in a link a while ago to Jack Herer's site that explains it all.
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seasoned

14 years ago

Patrician,

You seem nice, so I hope you are right. BUT, I have something for you to consider!

I had a "complete physical" at a doctor which included blood pressure/pulse. 2 MONTHS later I nearly died of a blown aorta due to a "slightly inefficient" aortic valve!

Steve

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Hey we've been trying for THOUSANDS of years to keep murder illegal...but according to you, since people are still killing others, we should just look the other way?

thats an awesome idea. Hey, people are still stealing stuff too after 1000's of years of 'the man' trying to come down on them, but people still steal. So in the future if your bike gets stolen, well you should just suck it up and drive on right?

Back to my original statement...the only people that think drugs like crack/coke/meth/heroin should be legalized are people that have something to 'gain' by legalization of those drugs....dealers and addicts.

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Lawrh

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Back to my original statement...the only people that think drugs like crack/coke/meth/heroin should be legalized are people that have something to 'gain' by legalization of those drugs....dealers and addicts.

Only the addicts gain. The dealers will lose it all.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lawrh

Only the addicts gain. The dealers will lose it all.

yeah, im sure that the crowd that is currently ONLY being held back by their fear of incarceration will just pack up shop and go home once they dont have to watch over their shoulders for cops.

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Lawrh

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

yeah, im sure that the crowd that is currently ONLY being held back by their fear of incarceration will just pack up shop and go home once they dont have to watch over their shoulders for cops.

Do you really believe that dealers will stay in business? It's absurd. If the product is legalized then it will be produced and sold by the pharmaceutical companies. Purchased at Walgreens or any other drug store. The dealers are automatically doomed if legalization happens.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lawrh

Do you really believe that dealers will stay in business? It's absurd. If the product is legalized then it will be produced and sold by the pharmaceutical companies. Purchased at Walgreens or any other drug store. The dealers are automatically doomed if legalization happens.

Hmm...do i really think that a product that would most likely be slapped with 'levels' of some sort will still have a market for people that have a growing addiction?

Lets see....If i'm Walgreens...and something like cocaine becomes legal...will I put out a really high grade product as can be found on the street right now...or will I cut the living crap out of it, thereby stretching my product, and forcing the dopeheads to come back to me sooner when their addiction isn't satisfied?

If im currently a dealer, and see that people aren't happy with walgreen's cut down product...will i pack up my shop and call it a day...or will I meet that need?

This is a tough one...let me kick this one around for a minute and see if i can come up with the answer.

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Lawrh

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

This is a tough one...let me kick this one around for a minute and see if i can come up with the answer.

Silly fantasizing. Your whole scenario is as much a daydream as crack being legalized. Besides, dealers are lazy opportunists and will just move to something else where they have more control. They always have and always will.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lawrh

Silly fantasizing. Your whole scenario is as much a daydream as crack being legalized. Besides, dealers are lazy opportunists and will just move to something else where they have more control. They always have and always will.

You dont know any dealers do you? There's a huge difference between a weed dealer and a coke/crack/meth dealer. When you're dealing in speedy addictive drugs, your business is open 24-7

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Hesaidblissfully

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Hmm...do i really think that a product that would most likely be slapped with 'levels' of some sort will still have a market for people that have a growing addiction?

Lets see....If i'm Walgreens...and something like cocaine becomes legal...will I put out a really high grade product as can be found on the street right now...or will I cut the living crap out of it, thereby stretching my product, and forcing the dopeheads to come back to me sooner when their addiction isn't satisfied?

If im currently a dealer, and see that people aren't happy with walgreen's cut down product...will i pack up my shop and call it a day...or will I meet that need?

Exactly! Just like when Prohibition was repealed, and the bootleggers were able to profit from all the alcoholics who wanted extra strength illegal booze.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Hey we've been trying for THOUSANDS of years to keep murder illegal...but according to you, since people are still killing others, we should just look the other way?

thats an awesome idea. Hey, people are still stealing stuff too after 1000's of years of 'the man' trying to come down on them, but people still steal. So in the future if your bike gets stolen, well you should just suck it up and drive on right?

Back to my original statement...the only people that think drugs like crack/coke/meth/heroin should be legalized are people that have something to 'gain' by legalization of those drugs....dealers and addicts.

Mike even you should understand the difference between murders and thieves and drug addicts.
But I know you just try to use scare tactics instead of facts to win your arguments.

As far as your original statement I've already told you I have no dog in this fight.
But then your statement is the same used by the govt. against legalizing Cannabis. Your answer to facts and logic is to dismiss the sayer as a drug addict or dealer.
All you have to base your arguments on are fantasies and scare tactics.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Mike even you should understand the difference between murders and thieves and drug addicts.
But I know you just try to use scare tactics instead of facts to win your arguments.

As far as your original statement I've already told you I have no dog in this fight.
But then your statement is the same used by the govt. against legalizing Cannabis. Your answer to facts and logic is to dismiss the sayer as a drug addict or dealer.
All you have to base your arguments on are fantasies and scare tactics.

Drugs addicts ARE murders and thieves.

No, I think that people who are for the legalization of weed have many good points to stand on. There are many benefits to both marijuana and hemp.

Exactly what is the benefit to meth, coke, crack? Can it be used for fuel? well technically i supposed you could harness 5 or 6 crackheads to pull your car around...if you can catch them

. Exactly which illnesses or diseases can you treat with meth? How many other uses do these drugs have?

Let me answer for you: None.

They have one purpose and one purpose only, to addict the user. Thats all.

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ThomM

14 years ago

So only drug addicts are murders and thieves?
Again you have no valid point.
Show me where I even hinted that there where benefits to hard drugs?
You can't because I never even eluded to it.
It's funny really, you haven't been able to contradict anything I've said.
Instead you make up stuff to change the argument.
I've stated right along that drug addiction is a medical problem and not a legal one. You try scare tactics to change what I say into things that I've never said at all.
You stated that only drug dealers and addicts want hard drugs legal, where instead they are the ones who want to keep them illegal because they know they will loose business if they do become legal.
You have also alluded in this thread to knowing drug dealers.

You dont know any dealers do you? There's a huge difference between a weed dealer and a coke/crack/meth dealer. When you're dealing in speedy addictive drugs, your business is open 24-7

Personally I not only don't know any drug dealers, but I don't know anyone who does hard drugs. Interesting.

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Drugs addicts ARE murders and thieves.

No, I think that people who are for the legalization of weed have many good points to stand on. There are many benefits to both marijuana and hemp.

Exactly what is the benefit to meth, coke, crack? Can it be used for fuel? well technically i supposed you could harness 5 or 6 crackheads to pull your car around...if you can catch them

. Exactly which illnesses or diseases can you treat with meth? How many other uses do these drugs have?

Let me answer for you: None.

They have one purpose and one purpose only, to addict the user. Thats all.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

So only drug addicts are murders and thieves?
Again you have no valid point.

Nope, I never said only drug addicts are murderers and thieves. But many are. One of the side affects of addiction is crime.

Show me where I even hinted that there where benefits to hard drugs?
You can't because I never even eluded to it.

So you're saying that there is no benefit to hard drugs, and agree that addiction, and all the other dark dirty things that come with hard drugs are bad.....but you think they should be legalized because......?

It's funny really, you haven't been able to contradict anything I've said.
Instead you make up stuff to change the argument.
I've stated right along that drug addiction is a medical problem and not a legal one. You try scare tactics to change what I say into things that I've never said at all.

You said drug addiction is a medical problem. I agreed with you. However drug addiction is a medical problem that is caused by a legal one illegal drug use. You said

Today you can get treatment for alcohol and tobacco addiction without a problem. Yet you can get arrested for having a different addiction.

You dont get arrested for having an addiction, you get arrested for purchasing the drugs. You can also get treatment for hard drug addiction too without being arrested. But most retards that spend their day snorting their paychecks or shoving it in their veins aren't really worried about redemption until they are standing in front of a judge for buying the drugs that cause the addiction.

You stated that only drug dealers and addicts want hard drugs legal, where instead they are the ones who want to keep them illegal because they know they will loose business if they do become legal.

No..you think they will lose business because you're trying to shore up your attempt to argue for the legalization of a substance that has no redeeming reasons for use and is created specifically to addict users so strongly they will use more and more until death.

You have also alluded in this thread to knowing drug dealers.
Personally I not only don't know any drug dealers, but I don't know anyone who does hard drugs. Interesting.

Oh let's don't play the innocent card now T. Unless you're growing your own, you know a drug dealer. If you're growing your own...you're a drug producer, which by some's reckoning is even lower on the food chain in terms of likability. And experience tells me that someone thats moving a fair amount of green is usually of the entreprenural spirit to the point that he takes on other 'streams of income' considering the makeup of his client base. So just because YOU dont buy hard drugs from your guy, doesnt mean he doesnt sell them

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Nope, I never said only drug addicts are murderers and thieves. But many are. One of the side affects of addiction is crime. Really all addiction? Many people who don't do drugs are murders and thieves, maybe being straight should be illegal.
So you're saying that there is no benefit to hard drugs, and agree that addiction, and all the other dark dirty things that come with hard drugs are bad.....but you think they should be legalized because......?
As I've stated many times so they can be regulated and controled.
Pay attention.
You said drug addiction is a medical problem. I agreed with you. However drug addiction is a medical problem that is caused by a legal one illegal drug use. You said You dont get arrested for having an addiction, you get arrested for purchasing the drugs. You can also get treatment for hard drug addiction too without being arrested. But most retards that spend their day snorting their paychecks or shoving it in their veins aren't really worried about redemption until they are standing in front of a judge for buying the drugs that cause the addiction.
No..you think they will lose business because you're trying to shore up your attempt to argue for the legalization of a substance that has no redeeming reasons for use and is created specifically to addict users so strongly they will use more and more until death.
Really? So all those people addicted to prescription drugs, alcohol, and tobacco aren't really addicted because they are legal?
History has proven that when you make a substance illegal, criminals profit and when you make them legal criminals loose.
Look at alcohol prohibition. So I don't think they will loose business, I know they will.
Oh let's don't play the innocent card now T. Unless you're growing your own, you know a drug dealer. If you're growing your own...you're a drug producer, which by some's reckoning is even lower on the food chain in terms of likability. And experience tells me that someone thats moving a fair amount of green is usually of the entreprenural spirit to the point that he takes on other 'streams of income' considering the makeup of his client base. So just because YOU dont buy hard drugs from your guy, doesnt mean he doesnt sell them

Again, you know absolutely nothing about me.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Really all addiction? Many people who don't do drugs are murders and thieves, maybe being straight should be illegal

Yeah, but addiction is very often a cause for murderers and theives. Being straight isnt.

As I've stated many times so they can be regulated and controled.
Pay attention.

Oh i see....so the plan is to cure crack addiction...with crack. Thats friggen genius!!:rolleyes:

Really? So all those people addicted to prescription drugs, alcohol, and tobacco aren't really addicted because they are legal?

Never said anything like that, but i do enjoy a good strawman argument in desperation.

History has proven that when you make a substance illegal, criminals profit and when you make them legal criminals loose.
Look at alcohol prohibition. So I don't think they will loose business, I know they will.

No, history, especially in the case of alcohol prohibition, has proven that when you make something illegal, those producing and selling it become criminals. When you make it legal, they become businessmen.

Again, you know absolutely nothing about me.
Yes I know a couple of growers who grow for their own use and give what they can to their friends.
So no I don't know any drug dealers, I know a couple of herb growers.
You calling them drug producers doesn't change what they really are.

Yeah..i know. you only know growers who do it out of the goodness of their hearts. Why thats the reason most growers increase their power and utility bills substantially, spend a good chunk on hardware, food, fertilizers..etc...because they're real intention is to give to the needy, not make money.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Yeah, but addiction is very often a cause for murderers and theives. Being straight isnt.

Oh i see....so the plan is to cure crack addiction...with crack. Thats friggen genius!!:rolleyes:

Never said anything like that, but i do enjoy a good strawman argument in desperation.

No, history, especially in the case of alcohol prohibition, has proven that when you make something illegal, those producing and selling it become criminals. When you make it legal, they become businessmen.

Yeah..i know. you only know growers who do it out of the goodness of their hearts. Why thats the reason most growers increase their power and utility bills substantially, spend a good chunk on hardware, food, fertilizers..etc...because they're real intention is to give to the needy, not make money.

Ya know people can put a couple of plants out on the woods. Not everyone grows plants indoors.
And yes I know a couple of old guys who grow a little for themselves and friends outdoors.
I don't really care if you believe it or not, because I know it's something you can't comprehend.
Just like you can't comprehend logic.
Your arguments are pointless Mike.
All you've done is prove you don't know what you're talking about.
Even with the Alcohol prohibition you not only don't have your facts right, you don't have any.
You simply make up stuff to try and prove your position because you don't have any facts or truth to back them up.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Ya know people can put a couple of plants out on the woods. Not everyone grows plants indoors.
And yes I know a couple of old guys who grow a little for themselves and friends outdoors.
I don't really care if you believe it or not, because I know it's something you can't comprehend.
Just like you can't comprehend logic.
Your arguments are pointless Mike.
All you've done is prove you don't know what you're talking about.
Even with the Alcohol prohibition you not only don't have your facts right, you don't have any.
You simply make up stuff to try and prove your position because you don't have any facts or truth to back them up.

Nobody who smokes regularly depends on throwing a couple plants out in the woods. There's too many variables that can make planting outside not worth a couple plants.

Do I really need to start throwing links to prove historical fact? I mean i know google is like some kind of new alien technology that people haven't quite figured out yet, but if you're truly that interested..you know where its at.

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ThomM 14 years ago

Like I said I didn't expect you to comprehend that, it doesn't fit into your narrow understanding of people.
This is the end. You simply can't have a rational discussion with an unrational person.
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Charlie299

14 years ago

I will be voting to legalize marijuana so there ya go

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cutequotes

14 years ago

still i think it shouldnt be legal

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Michael,

yeah, im sure that the crowd that is currently ONLY being held back by their fear of incarceration will just pack up shop and go home once they dont have to watch over their shoulders for cops.

Cost issue. The bulk of the expense in illegal drugs arises from distribution and compensation for relatively high risk activity. That goes away with legalization.

Comparing murder and theft with drug use is a tempting argument for the morally superior, but it's not valid as a stand-alone point. When the only potential victim is yourself, you're supposed to be free to engage in the activity in question. Your actions, your consequences, your business.

Hard drug users tend to steal because of the cost of the drug. See the point above about costs.

The increased likelihood of violence caused by some drugs is a valid argument for prohibiting them, but that's one you have to be careful of. Coke and crack, for instance. Very different effects.

For other drugs, the violence is caused by the money involved. The money is larger because of the legal status. Follow the chain of cause and effect, and the solution becomes obvious.

Not simple. But obvious.

Paul

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Patrician

14 years ago

Having seen the devastation of hard drugs first-hand, I never considered legalization/CONTROL for anything but pot.

However, really looking at it logically instead of emotionally (the way a few have outlined it here), I have to say it may be an answer. Bottom line is whatever we are doing now it is not working. More than that it is working BADLY.

The same money spent on prisons and eradication/enforcement and put into the pocket of cartels and other big wheeler dealers would be spent better to rehabilitate/educate and detox.

(however with that said I have known Methadone addicts - (the drug used to detox from smack) - so the behavior hasn't changed (addiction/compulsion etc) - only the drug of choice even with our current model in that regard.

It doesn't make sense to incarcerate SICK people unless they commit OTHER crimes that violate other's civil rights/endanger the public to feed their habit, which is very often the case.

I know it used to be 'legal' in the UK and addicts could just get an Rx. How is their drug crime rate there I wonder?

'The War on Drugs' just did not work. We need to try something else. (sic) = 'The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result'.

It is more than cops vs robbers - we are now dealing with crooks/suppliers that kill cops, politicians, competitors (El Loco) - the Mafia/Fascists have nothing on the Cartels as far as the Evil Meter.

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ThomM 14 years ago

Exactly Pat.
I'm not a fan of hard drugs
I did do them in my early 20's and have used those experiences to try to educate my girls and others on what they really do to you.
I'm not proud I did them, but I've tried to turn that huge negative into a small positive.
My talk about legalizing them is more about finding an alternative to the failed results to them being illegal.
If I had my way I'd just put a bullet in the head of anyone who decides to produce hard drugs, starting with the idiots that set up meth labs.
But after two marriages and raising 4 girls, I know I never get my way so lets at least look at alternatives to what we have now and see if we can find a better solution.
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rjaf

14 years ago

It'd be cool if a trade-off could be done:

Legalise pot; ban booze.

I use neither, but have yet to be threatened by anyone stoned on pot. I have, though (and who hasn't?), had an unpleasant encounter or two with drunken @ssholes.

For me, it's simple math.

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Patrician

14 years ago

Yes, alcohol is lethal.

My father drank himself to death by 42. (Bill)

One of my ex's didn't even make it to 40. (Bill)

Both Bill; both Cirrosis of the liver; both violent;

My father deserted 3 women with 3 little girls that never knew him.

I hope he enjoyed the party.

RIP.

(pass the joint)

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Karen Blundell 14 years ago

yeah, I've had my share of nightmares with alcoholics - close family members and friends, and an X who is a great guy if it weren't for his alcoholism

it's about time they legalized marijuana. In my humble opinion it is the lesser of all these evils: alcohol, cigarettes, prescription and hard drugs, fast food.
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cpace32

14 years ago

I have never smoked marijuana, and never will. Not because of the fact that it is illegal (although I have not done any illegal drugs), but just because you can plainly see what the average pot head amounts to in life (nothing).

That being said, legalize it already. Way too many resources are being expended in hunting down a plant. Alcohol is in most cases worse than marijuana, anyways.

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NatureElf

14 years ago

It should be legal. Why not? Then tax it, California needs the funds-really badly right now!

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dutchguy

13 years ago

Marijuana should not be legalized (also not in Holland). Although it's less bad then the real hard drugs it has lots of negative effects as well.

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chrislangley

13 years ago

That would be an odd legislation, but then again the times they are changing

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HeySal

13 years ago

Steve - the FDA has no standing with the educated public anymore. They are funded by the industries they were meant to control, and if you look at REAL research not supported by the companies putting out their drugs, you'd find a lot of people being maimed and killed by drugs actually allowed by the FDA. Advil, for instance, is the leading cause of kidney failure, but there it is on the store shelves. The FDA no more than a way for Pharms to get through the system.

As far as pot - NORML website has all the research not funded by the companies that will lose money if we use pot medicinally - or those who stand to lose major money if we start growing hemp for clothing instead of using toxic synthetic fibers again. (One of the reasons it was illegalized in the first place - and they purposely made people think hemp and pot were the same thing to get that done). Look at how much money the corporatized prison system in this country will lose if it's legalized. These non-violent "offenders" are able to be put on work release and rake in major amounts of money via slave labor for the corporate prison system.

Yet look at the statistics of the good pot can do medicinally, how few problems it causes compared to alcohol or other drugs, including legal drugs. Look at what could be done if we could grow our own natural fibers for producing things again. And look at who is trying to stop legalization and what their ulterior motives are. Once you look at those facts, there's no question about what the right thing to do would be. If it hadn't been for corporate greed, it never would have gotten illegalized anyway. I'm just flaberghasted that the negative propaganda campaign still has any hold on anyone by this day and age. No wonder we lost our freedom.

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ThomM 13 years ago

I'm just flaberghasted that the negative propaganda campaign still has any hold on anyone by this day and age. No wonder we lost our freedom.

People are idiots
I find it more idiotic when they spout all the "Reefer Madness" crap.
With the number of adults in this country (18-80) who smoke Cannabis, it's a safe bet to say this.
Every person in this country in their day to day life, come in contact with people who smoke Cannabis and don't have a clue they do.
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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Steve - the FDA has no standing with the educated public anymore. They are funded by the industries they were meant to control, and if you look at REAL research not supported by the companies putting out their drugs, you'd find a lot of people being maimed and killed by drugs actually allowed by the FDA. Advil, for instance, is the leading cause of kidney failure, but there it is on the store shelves. The FDA no more than a way for Pharms to get through the system.

Did I EVER say I liked the FDA? HERE, I said they closed down some supplement companies or products, because of use of illegal and harmful additives.

As far as pot - NORML website has all the research not funded by the companies that will lose money if we use pot medicinally - or those who stand to lose major money if we start growing hemp for clothing instead of using toxic synthetic fibers again. (One of the reasons it was illegalized in the first place - and they purposely made people think hemp and pot were the same thing to get that done). Look at how much money the corporatized prison system in this country will lose if it's legalized. These non-violent "offenders" are able to be put on work release and rake in major amounts of money via slave labor for the corporate prison system.

Yet look at the statistics of the good pot can do medicinally, how few problems it causes compared to alcohol or other drugs, including legal drugs. Look at what could be done if we could grow our own natural fibers for producing things again. And look at who is trying to stop legalization and what their ulterior motives are. Once you look at those facts, there's no question about what the right thing to do would be. If it hadn't been for corporate greed, it never would have gotten illegalized anyway. I'm just flaberghasted that the negative propaganda campaign still has any hold on anyone by this day and age. No wonder we lost our freedom.

Doesn't change the fact that it IS bad! HEY, even ARSENIC has its place, even if they DID recently outlaw it here. 8-( Still, arsenic is poisonous.

Steve

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Kurt 13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Doesn't change the fact that it IS bad! HEY, even ARSENIC has its place, even if they DID recently outlaw it here. 8-( Still, arsenic is poisonous.

Steve

No Steve, that's not a fact, it's merely your opinion. It's good to know the difference between the two.

And why is it the people that need to smoke a joint the most are the ones the most against it?
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- Roaddog 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kurt
  
  And why is it the people that need to smoke a joint the most are the ones the most against it?
  
  LOL...they should keep smokin it illegal....brownies maaaan...kill two birds with one stoned.....:p
  
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Roaddog

13 years ago

I'm just surprised that this thread was started over a year ago and all you pot smokers are still alive.

And coherent,
still able to spell,
sound at least half lucid.
and not playin' a piano in a crazed frenzy.

You mean they lied?....roflmao....

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Patrician

13 years ago

LOL Kurt

"I did not inhale"

Yes and the second stanza to your

"And why is it the people that need to smoke a joint the most are the ones the most against it?" is

How did they get to be such experts without ever trying it themselves?

I will tell you how: They are absolutely positive that what they have read is true about the dangers, but then of course will ignore all the studies to the contrary.

After all pot should be perfectly safe and have none of the dangerous substances that we ingest everyday in drugs, foods, air - Hey let's criminalize air because it isn't perfect.

It is horrible that the people who make the rules are the least informed and have no business whatsoever THEREFORE doing so.

What really got me was this article today:

Cops Fired for Opposing War on Drugs - New York Times examines case of border patrol agent

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Roaddog

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

It is horrible that the people who make the rules are the least informed and have no business whatsoever THEREFORE doing so.

What really got me was this article today:

Cops Fired for Opposing War on Drugs - New York Times examines case of border patrol agent

....was working as a Border Patrol agent in New Mexico when he made the fatal mistake of musing to a colleague that legalizing marijuana would end Mexico’s violent drug war.

Frankly, I couldn't agree with that guy more.

Right now, 'they' (the govmnt) are indirectly creating a syndicate..at least in the Southwest...that is going to make La Cosa Nostra pale in comparison. The numbers on the 'bad guys' is staggering.

The only people making people die from 'weed' is the Govment.

...and it's no laughing matter...

myopic pricks.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

LOL Kurt

"I did not inhale"

Yes and the second stanza to your

"And why is it the people that need to smoke a joint the most are the ones the most against it?" is

How did they get to be such experts without ever trying it themselves?

Gee, why don't you take a lot of arsenic and tell us if it is dangerous? I HAVE had to put up with bong water and the like so I know SOMETHING about it. And have you ever noticed how a lot of people, at least when they are smoking, act? Is that all an act or because of some additive?

Steve

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Patrician

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Gee, why don't you take a lot of arsenic and tell us if it is dangerous? I HAVE had to put up with bong water and the like so I know SOMETHING about it. And have you ever noticed how a lot of people, at least when they are smoking, act? Is that all an act or because of some additive?

Steve

Now Steve - hello, this is earth. Arsenic is a naturally occurring substance found in many places and ingested through multiple avenues.

Of course the crux is getting TOO MUCH which is where it will kill you. Your argument does not hold water. Neither does your bong, dude.

What do you mean you 'HAVE had to "put up with" bong water'??? Put up with how? I have been around pot and pot smokers for decades and while I have been in the same room with and even used a bong before, I did not HAVE to put up with the water. I never touched it! What in the hell are you talking about here?

What about water that has gotten pesticides in it after it has been on plants and soil and includes other toxic material that is poisonous even in small doses? Let's put people in jail for using pesticides because it definitely follows if ARSENIC is the thing that makes pot so dangerous???

Sorry didn't mean to turn this into a bash on you Steve and your logic. Still enjoy reading your stuff when I can understand it.

Let's all LIGHT(en) UP!

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gareth

13 years ago

What not to do when you burn your arm...

1. Pour petrol on it

2. Burn it some more to distract from the pain of the initial burn

What not to do when your society is collapsing...

1. Encourage homosexuality, porn, prostitution, gambling, debt

2. Legalize drugs

Karl Marx: “If you give a capitalist enough rope, eventually he will hang himself.”

Socialist's rejoice in the destruction of the USA. Who will you destroy after that ?

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Patrician

13 years ago

Gee that really hurts Gareth.

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LarryC

13 years ago

More evidence of how corrupt the so-called War on Drugs is came out today:

DEA Launders Mexican Profits of Drug Cartels

The CIA has a long history of selling drugs to fund its campaigns. It seems that the government is more interested in maintaining a monopoly over the control of drugs than it is in getting rid of them.

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seasoned

13 years ago

OH, and the idea of fire, IN AND OF ITSELF, is DANGEROUS! Te smell in various areas may hurt business, the heat and various toxins hurt, it could melt plastic, burn wood, and even cause fires. So even if the marijuana were 100% safe, or even helpful, smoking a joint would be dangerous.

Steve

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ThomM

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Gee, why don't you take a lot of arsenic and tell us if it is dangerous? I HAVE had to put up with bong water and the like so I know SOMETHING about it. And have you ever noticed how a lot of people, at least when they are smoking, act? Is that all an act or because of some additive?

Steve

Originally Posted by seasoned

OH, and the idea of fire, IN AND OF ITSELF, is DANGEROUS! Te smell in various areas may hurt business, the heat and various toxins hurt, it could melt plastic, burn wood, and even cause fires. So even if the marijuana were 100% safe, or even helpful, smoking a joint would be dangerous.

Steve

Steve no offense but.
Those are two of the stupidest statements I have ever read.
Bong water:confused:, fire:confused:

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Steve no offense but.
Those are two of the stupidest statements I have ever read.
Bong water:confused:, fire:confused:

Bong water i water that the smoke from weed in a bong has been smoked through. Fire is used to light roaches. Sorry, I thought ALL that heard of marijuana knew that. 8-(

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ThomM

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Bong water i water that the smoke from weed in a bong has been smoked through. Fire is used to light roaches. Sorry, I thought ALL that heard of marijuana knew that. 8-(

Steve

Steve I've smoked Cannabis for over 40 years, I know what bong water and fire are:rolleyes:
What I don't know is how either of those are reasons to say Cannabis is dangerous.
Air is involved also, does that make Cannabis dangerous?
You have to be alive to smoke Cannabis, maybe life is also dangerous because it can lead to Cannabis smoking:rolleyes:

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ThomM 13 years ago

Steve here's a couple links you may find interesting.
Between the two links is a list of 20 people who either do or have smoked Cannabis. Kind of dispels the stupid stoner myth. By the way as a little antidote type of evidence. I've had my I.Q. tested numerous times both 'straight' and 'stoned'. The numbers have varied over the years (also accounting for different types of IQ tests), but one thing was always consistent. I always test at least 10 points higher when 'stoned'.
My I.Q. is around 130 so I don't think I've killed very many brain cells from Cannabis over the years.
The 10 Most Successful Potheads on the Planet... Cool Enough to Admit It : COED Magazine
The 10 Smartest Pot Smokers on the Planet... Cool Enough to Admit It : COED Magazine
The first link is a 2009 article, the second 2011.
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Roaddog

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Steve I've smoked Cannabis for over 40 years, I know what bong water and fire are:rolleyes:
What I don't know is how either of those are reasons to say Cannabis is dangerous.
Air is involved also, does that make Cannabis dangerous?
You have to be alive to smoke Cannabis, maybe life is also dangerous because it can lead to Cannabis smoking:rolleyes:

Stay away from sex then...it leads to dancing....

Right after fire, cavemen discovered bong water and a habit was born...I believe it was Indo's that perfected it...

and that's about as true as Steve's argument...
you sound like you might have co-written Reefer Madness, cause I haven't any arguments like that, since then.

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seasoned

13 years ago

BTW I have NEVER claimed the government was even a net positive. Far from it. It is interesting that some that HAVE have tried to make it appear like I am wrong because THEY claim I have and that they aren't.

I WAS going to say some interesting stuff, but this is enough for now.

Steve

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Patrician

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

I WAS going to say some interesting stuff, but this is enough for now.

Steve

Steve - most of what you say makes no sense did you know that? (with all due respect) you chronically go off on tangents that have nothing at all to do with what is being discussed. (You often preface with 'HECK' which I guess makes it logical?)

In and of itself SOMETIMES what you say may be true at least in part but in most topics it seems like you are just all over the place to try to create an argument.

It's fine with me if you don't want to smoke pot, never have, don't think it should be legal, think it's dangerous, etc. I realize you know a lot about many things particularly computers. Why not try to stick to the point in the first place because you usually sound like you are not just stoned, but RIPPED, ok?

... AND STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW FIRST HAND. (not because your Aunt Mabel's second cousin's brother in law said so or turned out to be a reprobate after smoking a joint) We are all individuals and as such the same substance can cause a diversity of reactions.

I wonder if a little high grade THC would not straighten you out? LOL. Maybe us degenerate pot heads could understand you a little better if you FOCUSED?

(No offense) just speaking the truth as I see it the same way you do.

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Dave Patterson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

Steve - most of what you say makes no sense did you know that? (with all due respect) you chronically go off on tangents that have nothing at all to do with what is being discussed. (You often preface with 'HECK' which I guess makes it logical?)

Oh....I always assumed he was about three bong hits ahead of me and I needed to catch up and read it again...

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Kurt

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

Steve - most of what you say makes no sense did you know that? (with all due respect) you chronically go off on tangents that have nothing at all to do with what is being discussed. (You often preface with 'HECK' which I guess makes it logical?)

Good choice of words...

But I do think Steve has a point...We should make all forms of fire illegal, since it's so dangerous. No bics. No matches. No rubbing sticks together.