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Is this the real original Stairway to Heaven?

by Kurt
50 replies
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Here's a 1968 song called Taurus by Spirit. Spirit was an opening act for Led Zepplin for their first US tour. What do you think? Did Jimmy Page "borrow" some of the guitar from this song for the intro to Stairway?

  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
    Wow Kurt!

    It certainly sounds like it to me!

    Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
    Could be.
    At about a minute in I defiantly heard the similarities.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I know that members of Spirit certainly thought so.
    I think that on a remastered copy of The Twleve Dreams Of Dr Sardonicus that they have an interview whith I think it is Ferguson say that page did.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      I know that members of Spirit certainly thought so.
      I think that on a remastered copy of The Twleve Dreams Of Dr Sardonicus that they have an interview whith I think it is Ferguson say that page did.
      And my understanding is, all Spirit ever wanted was a "thank you".
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      • Profile picture of the author garyv
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        And my understanding is, all Spirit ever wanted was a "thank you".
        But in this litigious age a thank you = acknowledgement and acknowledgement = lawsuit for half the money you made.

        Accident or purpose - I think I'd also want to stay far away from any acknowledgement.

        After all there's no denying that it was the overall packaging of the song in it's entirety that made it so good.
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      • Profile picture of the author MoneyMagnetMagnate
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        And my understanding is, all Spirit ever wanted was a "thank you".
        That's it? Man...that would have been a cheap quick fix, eh?
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        And my understanding is, all Spirit ever wanted was a "thank you".
        Probably.
        I think The Twelve Dreams Of Dr Sardonicus is one of the top ten albums of all time.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    It's definitely similar that's for sure. Whether or not it was on purpose is harder to know.

    There have been studies that show that a large portion of songs written are not purely original. Most writers will inadvertently string together notes that they've heard somewhere in the past. It's very hard to string together a purely original composition and have it be aesthetically pleasing.

    Here's a site that shows some songs that sound like other songs from the past - some are on purpose some are not... That Song Sounds Like
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    • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      It's definitely similar that's for sure. Whether or not it was on purpose is harder to know.

      There have been studies that show that a large portion of songs written are not purely original. Most writers will inadvertently string together notes that they've heard somewhere in the past. It's very hard to string together a purely original composition and have it be aesthetically pleasing.

      Here's a site that shows some songs that sound like other songs from the past - some are on purpose some are not... That Song Sounds Like
      Especially in Pop music...evidently...

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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      It's definitely similar that's for sure. Whether or not it was on purpose is harder to know.

      There have been studies that show that a large portion of songs written are not purely original. Most writers will inadvertently string together notes that they've heard somewhere in the past. It's very hard to string together a purely original composition and have it be aesthetically pleasing.

      Here's a site that shows some songs that sound like other songs from the past - some are on purpose some are not... That Song Sounds Like
      awesome site.
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  • Profile picture of the author MoneyMagnetMagnate
    Well it could be argued that Page and Plant were inspired and possibly influenced...:rolleyes:
    Though I will also admit to liking the LZ song better...

    The Axis of Awesome is a good example...I could swear I've heard that song somewhere!
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  • Profile picture of the author PrimoRudy
    dude, LZ stole like 90% of there music. I was a huge zep fan till i found out about this. Just youtube it! its's pretty ridic...
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      It's definitely similar that's for sure. Whether or not it was on purpose is harder to know.

      There have been studies that show that a large portion of songs written are not purely original. Most writers will inadvertently string together notes that they've heard somewhere in the past. It's very hard to string together a purely original composition and have it be aesthetically pleasing.

      Here's a site that shows some songs that sound like other songs from the past - some are on purpose some are not... That Song Sounds Like
      Gary that's why my brief attempt at song writing ended.
      Seemed like everything I wrote was just an interpitation of songs I had heard in the past
      Originally Posted by PrimoRudy View Post

      dude, LZ stole like 90% of there music. I was a huge zep fan till i found out about this. Just youtube it! its's pretty ridic...
      So what. They were still incredible musicians and even if their songs where copies, they did them well.
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      • Profile picture of the author PrimoRudy
        yeah but they never credited teh artists they copied - and when that dazed and confused song came out (one of the mains songs they copied) they got all mad that THEY were copying THEM when zep ripped that song off the yardbirds
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Standing ovation for Axis of Awesome.

      Been writing songs for over 30 years and I can guarantee you that somewhere
      in the mix is a song that sounds like something somebody did.

      In fact, after I wrote the song "(It isn't) Hard To Understand" and played it back,
      I said to myself, "Damn, this sounds just like an Emmett Rhodes tune."

      Now I hadn't listened to Emmett Rhodes in 20 years at the time, but somewhere in
      the back of my mind was his music.

      There are only so many "pleasing to the ear" chord progressions in music.
      Removing all dissonance that would drive people crazy, when you're limited to
      what is commercially viable, there are going to be only so many totally
      different songs that you can write.

      Whether or not Page intentionally stole this song, nobody is ever going to
      know and he's certainly never going to admit it. But remember, it's just a riff.
      Page turned that riff into a whole new song and for that, give him a lot of
      credit.

      The two songs may have similarities in that one riff, but make no mistake
      about it...this song is NO Stairway To Heaven.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Whether or not Page intentionally stole this song, nobody is ever going to
        know and he's certainly never going to admit it. But remember, it's just a riff.
        Page turned that riff into a whole new song and for that, give him a lot of
        credit.

        The two songs may have similarities in that one riff, but make no mistake
        about it...this song is NO Stairway To Heaven.
        Hey Steven...

        Plagiarism doesn't have to be intentional. We do know that Page was aware of Spirit, as they opened for LZ on their first American tour. And...We know LZ had other issues with not giving credit to songs.

        And there's no doubt the two songs are different songs. But at what point is it copying someone else? If it was your riff, and another band took it, how you would feel?

        I'm not being argumentative, just want to know how people would "judge" this case?


        Also, aren't "Under Pressure" and "Ice Ice Baby" two different songs, yet Vanilla Ice was heavily criticized for the similarities?


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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Hey Steven...

          Plagiarism doesn't have to be intentional. We do know that Page was aware of Spirit, as they opened for LZ on their first American tour. And...We know LZ had other issues with not giving credit to songs.

          And there's no doubt the two songs are different songs. But at what point is it copying someone else? If it was your riff, and another band took it, how you would feel?

          I'm not being argumentative, just want to know how people would "judge" this case?


          Also, aren't "Under Pressure" and "Ice Ice Baby" two different songs, yet Vanilla Ice was heavily criticized for the similarities?

          Under Pressure - YouTube

          Vanilla Ice - Ice Ice Baby - YouTube
          Kurt, there is no question that technically, Stairway's riff is the same as
          the song in question.

          The song in question, did almost nothing for me whereas Stairway is one of
          the most recognizable and arguably greatest rock songs of all time.

          I'm not excusing what LZ did. But God bless them to be able to take
          something so bland and turn it into what they did.

          To answer your question, if somebody took one of my riffs and turned it
          into a song, I would be flattered. And as long as the song itself was so
          radically different from the song that they borrowed the riff from, I'd be okay
          with it.

          It's when they blatantly steal my whole song, note for note, and pass it off
          as their own, that's when I get the lawyers.

          LZ didn't do this. They took a 10 second phrase and turned it into an 8
          minute masterpiece.

          Here is the bottom line. Because the two songs, as a whole, are so radically
          different, if you were to bring this to a court of law, I am 99% sure that the
          case would be dismissed and no verdict of plagiarism would come down.

          I've heard plagiarism. Listen to George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord." THAT'S
          plagiarism, and yes...he was sued and lost.

          That's the benchmark that you have to go by in regard to this subject.

          Now, would it have been nice for LZ to acknowledge that they were inspired
          by Spirit? Sure. But they didn't. I'm not going to personally lynch them for it
          especially since we're talking about a 10 second riff.

          Oh, and by the way...listen to a lot of early rap and hip hop tunes where
          they flat out sample other people's riffs.

          How many songs have you heard the riff to "Can't Touch This."

          The industry is what it is. Doesn't make it right and I am in no way condoning
          it, but I'm also not going to crucify LZ for doing what bands and artists have
          been doing from the beginning of time.
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          • Profile picture of the author garyv
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


            How many songs have you heard the riff to "Can't Touch This."
            Don't you mean "Super Freak"?


            I'm not sure what the exact rules are on sampling - and/or how many of the same notes you can string together that are the same before it's considered stealing or copying. It would be interesting to find out.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by garyv View Post

              Don't you mean "Super Freak"?


              I'm not sure what the exact rules are on sampling - and/or how many of the same notes you can string together that are the same before it's considered stealing or copying. It would be interesting to find out.
              Yeah, that's right...Super Freak. I guess that came first. See what I mean?
              I forgot that Can't Touch This was actually taken from Super Freak.

              Personally, I liked MC Hammer's version better.

              And yes, it would be interesting to know what technically constitutes plagiarism.
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      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        I think it's clear that Jimmy Page "borrowed" a lot of Led Zep's songs from others. Not just the obvious plundering of old blues numbers from Willie Dixon, Howlin' Wolf, Otis Rush et al, but straight lifts like "Dazed And Confused" which the band didn't even try to disguise.

        Led Zep were undoubtedly great, but it would have been so much better if Jimmy Page had credited or even acknowledged the original artists. Here's a snip from an interview he gave to Guitar World magazine in 1993, responding to all the plagiarism lawsuits:

        "As far as my end of it goes, I always tried to bring something fresh to anything that I used. I always made sure to come up with some variation. In fact, I think in most cases, you would never know what the original source could be. Maybe not in every case -- but in most cases. So most of the comparisons rest on the lyrics. And Robert was supposed to change the lyrics, and he didn't always do that -- which is what brought on most of the grief. They couldn't get us on the guitar parts of the music, but they nailed us on the lyrics. We did, however, take some liberties, I must say [laughs]. But never mind; we did try to do the right thing."

        He was a bit unkind to Robert Plant in that excerpt. You couldn't blame Plant for the guitar riff that Page used in "How Many More Times" that was lifted from Jeff Beck (Beck's Bolero). Or for the similar riff on these tunes, for example:




        Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author KimW
          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          I think it's clear that Jimmy Page "borrowed" a lot of Led Zep's songs from others. Not just the obvious plundering of old blues numbers from Willie Dixon, Howlin' Wolf, Otis Rush et al, but straight lifts like "Dazed And Confused" which the band didn't even try to disguise.

          Led Zep were undoubtedly great, but it would have been so much better if Jimmy Page had credited or even acknowledged the original artists. Here's a snip from an interview he gave to Guitar World magazine in 1993, responding to all the plagiarism lawsuits:

          "As far as my end of it goes, I always tried to bring something fresh to anything that I used. I always made sure to come up with some variation. In fact, I think in most cases, you would never know what the original source could be. Maybe not in every case -- but in most cases. So most of the comparisons rest on the lyrics. And Robert was supposed to change the lyrics, and he didn't always do that -- which is what brought on most of the grief. They couldn't get us on the guitar parts of the music, but they nailed us on the lyrics. We did, however, take some liberties, I must say [laughs]. But never mind; we did try to do the right thing."

          He was a bit unkind to Robert Plant in that excerpt. You couldn't blame Plant for the guitar riff that Page used in "How Many More Times" that was lifted from Jeff Beck (Beck's Bolero). Or for the similar riff on these tunes, for example:

          Watch Your Step - Bobby Parker (1961) - YouTube

          Led Zeppelin Moby Dick - YouTube


          Frank
          Man, you are so right Frank. I have never heard that first one before. But I knew what Zep song it was within 15-20 seconds of it starting.
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
    It is one of the most recognizable, famous riffs ever. It's one thing to incorporate a phrase into a song, when the whole of that song surpasses the phrase. But in the case of Stairway to Heaven, the riff is the song.
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Hey Steven...

      Plagiarism doesn't have to be intentional. We do know that Page was aware of Spirit, as they opened for LZ on their first American tour. And...We know LZ had other issues with not giving credit to songs.

      And there's no doubt the two songs are different songs. But at what point is it copying someone else? If it was your riff, and another band took it, how you would feel?

      I'm not being argumentative, just want to know how people would "judge" this case?


      Also, aren't "Under Pressure" and "Ice Ice Baby" two different songs, yet Vanilla Ice was heavily criticized for the similarities?

      Under Pressure - YouTube

      Vanilla Ice - Ice Ice Baby - YouTube
      With Under Preessure and vanille Ice, that happened when their was a big legal battle over sampling. I still don't understand the courts ruling on that.

      Originally Posted by LeeLee View Post

      It is one of the most recognizable, famous riffs ever. It's one thing to incorporate a phrase into a song, when the whole of that song surpasses the phrase. But in the case of Stairway to Heaven, the riff is the song.
      Actually that riff is important to the song, but the sound and tone of the song changes midway through so I don't think thats a fair statement.
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      • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
        Originally Posted by KimW View Post

        Actually that riff is important to the song, but the sound and tone of the song changes midway through so I don't think thats a fair statement.

        If you are referring the guitar solo and after, I have to agree with you. Everything prior to that are variations of the same theme.

        ETA: I was looking for someone who could explain this better than me and stumbled on this... have you guys ever seen this site before?

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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    The thing about the Spirit song is the 6 seconds of flute around the 18-24 second mark...I kinda wish they would have gone with that sound for all of the song.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    It would really stifle creativity if artists had to watch every note or every progression in every riff to be sure it was absolutely original.

    It may sound mean but whoever really heard of or remembers Spirit - Taurus? Not that many people - whereas almost everybody knows Led Zep and loves STH as one of the greatest songs ever done.

    The world would be without Stairway to Heaven had LZ sat there and said - oh no we can't do that because 6 seconds of this somebody else did first.

    However an acknowledgement would have been right.

    Another thing is having worked with bands, one which never played the same song twice exactly the same way - one of the coolest things is where musicians do kind of reply to each other -

    A does a riff and then B takes that and runs with it either in the same or a different direction. You see that especially with drums and guitar. So what may sound like 'copying' can also be seen as 'I heard you, this is what you said, ' and 'furthermore, take that'.

    Got to have 'the REAL deal' here: Definitely the furtherMORE.

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    • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      It would really stifle creativity if artists had to watch every note or every progression in every riff to be sure it was absolutely original.

      It may sound mean but whoever really heard of or remembers Spirit - Taurus? Not that many people - whereas almost everybody knows Led Zep and loves STH as one of the greatest songs ever done.

      The world would be without Stairway to Heaven had LZ sat there and said - oh no we can't do that because 6 seconds of this somebody else did first.

      However an acknowledgement would have been right.

      Another thing is having worked with bands, one which never played the same song twice exactly the same way - one of the coolest things is where musicians do kind of reply to each other -

      A does a riff and then B takes that and runs with it either in the same or a different direction. You see that especially with drums and guitar. So what may sound like 'copying' can also be seen as 'I heard you, this is what you said, ' and 'furthermore, take that'.

      Got to have 'the REAL deal' here: Definitely the furtherMORE.

      Led Zeppelin-Stairway To Heaven 1980 - YouTube
      Jam Bands (such as the Dead, Allmans, etc...) Now THATS where you walk away from a concert knowing you would have payed TWICE the price to be there...
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      • Profile picture of the author Patrician
        Originally Posted by Dave Patterson View Post

        Jam Bands (such as the Dead, Allmans, etc...) Now THATS where you walk away from a concert knowing you would have payed TWICE the price to be there...
        very true dave.

        hehehe the memories of an old rocking chair lady.

        #1 thinking about the band that never played the same song the same way twice, the Amplified Ohm.

        Thinking now (in the shower where I can think) what if somebody asks Who in Hell is that in my post? Well their only claim to fame was they lived on Ashbury Street 2 doors from the Dead's house. LOL. Am I famous yet?

        Seriously though we made drunks cry - it was like a train wreck* but very spiritual - you know exactly what i mean right dave? (no)

        *(everybody doing their own thing - the only thing together was they started and ended together) - it was a true JAM.

        Yeah that was some of the finest music ever played as far as I am concerned.

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        • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
          Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

          very true dave.

          hehehe the memories of an old rocking chair lady.

          #1 thinking about the band that never played the same song the same way twice, the Amplified Ohm.

          Thinking now (in the shower where I can think) what if somebody asks Who in Hell is that in my post? Well their only claim to fame was they lived on Ashbury Street 2 doors from the Dead's house. LOL. Am I famous yet?

          Seriously though we made drunks cry - it was like a train wreck* but very spiritual - you know exactly what i mean right dave? (no)

          *(everybody doing their own thing - the only thing together was they started and ended together) - it was a true JAM.

          Yeah that was some of the finest music ever played as far as I am concerned.

          Just for the heck of it Pat, I googled and found a guys writings on that period of the 60's in the Bay area...

          Check out the 12th paragraph...

          pete edler

          This will probably take you back. A great list of Bay area bands "back in the day"...

          http://w69.w6.funpic.de/SF%20BANDS%202008.10.08.htm
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          • Profile picture of the author Patrician
            Originally Posted by Dave Patterson View Post

            Just for the heck of it Pat, I googled and found a guys writings on that period of the 60's in the Bay area...

            Check out the 12th paragraph...

            pete edler

            This will probably take you back. A great list of Bay area bands "back in the day"...

            BAY AREA BANDS
            OMIGOD!

            AMPLIFIED OHM
            Formed by Tsvi Strauch, proprietor of the Haight Ashbury store “In Gear” they appeared at the All Saints church on September 3rd 1967.

            wow - what memories - thanks so much Dave.

            Somehow - now Tsvi was very Jewish - we also had this other church St John the Evangelist - that we got to use to practice - the acoustics are fantastic in a church. This was the time one of the studio singers from Vanilla Fudge sat in with us (from the pulpit) Just freaking out of this world voice.

            Then this is what blows me away here:

            ALL MEN JOY
            This group appears on countless posters from the S F Ballroom scene, but little is known about them. Dennis Parker played bass. Managed by Hillel Resner who was involved with the Straight Theatre.

            I choreographed a play at the Straight Theatre (Haight Ashbury) called 'The San Francisco Blues' (by some guy from New York lol) - this was the band that played for the play-

            For years I have thought this was the Allman Bros before they were them. hahaha so I am nuts (almond joy)

            The story I always tell is how they went on a break and my baby then around 2 years old got up on the drums and played a riff LOL. It will kill him when I tell him it wasn't the Allman Bros. LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author bravo75
    Pretty sure Led Zep's "No Quarter" borrowed a few riffs from Hendrix's "Machine Gun" as well.
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by bravo75 View Post

      Pretty sure Led Zep's "No Quarter" borrowed a few riffs from Hendrix's "Machine Gun" as well.
      One of my favorite Hendrix songs.

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      • Profile picture of the author bravo75
        Originally Posted by KimW View Post

        Definitely one of my favorite songs, period. The version from the isle of wight festival is my favorite version. The one you posted is the band of gypsies from the Filmore East. Just as brilliant but a more bluesy, soul like feel to it. But to get back on topic, here is Led Zep's "No Quarter".

        You can clearly hear the "Machine Gun" influence there. At least I can. Listen from 0:37. Still a ****ing brilliant song though, like almost all of Led Zep's stuff. Copied or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    So did Dolly take it from Led Zeppelin or Spirit?

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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      So did Dolly take it from Led Zeppelin or Spirit?
      Good spot, Gary



      Whether Led Zep used the Spirit song or not, I bet they regret not including a wobble board:



      Frank
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by garyv View Post

      So did Dolly take it from Led Zeppelin or Spirit?

      Dolly Parton - We Used To - YouTube
      Wiki says:

      ""We Used To" is a single, released in October 1975, by Dolly Parton that reached #9 on the U.S. country singles charts.[1] It was also included on her 1975 album Dolly: The Seeker/We Used To. The song, written by Parton in late 1974, featured a guitar pattern at the opening which put a number of critic and fans in mind of the Led Zeppelin classic "Stairway to Heaven". (Parton, who has stated a number of times that she is a longtime Led Zeppelin fan, eventually covered "Stairway" in 2002.)"
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  • Profile picture of the author MarkSmallwood
    Sounds very similar. You can notice it immediately.
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  • Profile picture of the author TI Networks
    Is one section the inspiration for the opening of Stairway to Heaven? Sounds like it probably is. But, it sure isn't an exact copy. So if Page took an idea and did something different with it (and Stairway to Heaven is VERY different from this)--then so what? Musicians have always gotten ideas from each other. Look at classical music--all kinds of motifs and ideas are taken and used in new compositions. This is good. So is Stairway.
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  • Profile picture of the author DaisySibyl
    It is similar, I have to agree. Which version did you like the most? Zevon's version is my favorite.
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    I think this is the inspiration for both of them.

    Edvard Grieg,"Peer Gynt","In the Hall of the Mountain King" - YouTube

    My cat just had a really freaked out reaction to this and he doesn't normally pay attention to sounds coming from the computer or TV.
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  • Profile picture of the author cvcena
    Gotta show this to my uncle...
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    • Profile picture of the author Brian John
      oh, this topic again. although they're my all time favorite band, it's very well documented that zep found "inspiration" for many of their songs in other's music. it's easy to slam them and call them thieves considering their permanent place as one of the, if not the, greatest hard rock groups of all time. let's not forget though that as much as they may have borrowed, many many bands that came after them ripped off their own meaty shreds...cumulatively far more than zep ever did. like has been mentioned in this thread, there's only so many commercially viable cord progressions and at some point or another it's likely that someone's material, whether inadvertently or not, will be copied.

      btw, can't remember where i read/heard it, but i believe zep opened on at least one occasion for spirit early on in their career. no question there's a similarity between stairway and taurus.
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  • Profile picture of the author seoforu
    I often wonder where does the stairway takes us? Is there a stairway? If there is any then where is it??
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    • Profile picture of the author Brian John
      Originally Posted by seoforu View Post

      I often wonder where does the stairway takes us? Is there a stairway? If there is any then where is it??
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Patterson
    After hearing the song THOUSANDS of times...It seems to me it goes on forever.
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