has Black Friday gotten out of control

12 years ago

"We" haven't, but "some" have. Many of us don't participate in Black Friday chaos. Although, I'm sure it's much safer here than in a big city.

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HeySal

12 years ago

It went too far a long time ago. This is an example of programmed consumerism. People that are that crazed to buy have been indoctrinated (often by the school systems) to be mindless consumers. Put the cell phones down and pick up a few history/political philosophy books, then go take a cruise through the bills being brought up and voted on lately. You will lose your breath when you put it all into a big picture.

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bravo75

12 years ago

Brain-dead, pathetic, subhuman pond scum. Should all be rounded up and thrown into FEMA camps. It's because of @ssholes like this that governments can get away with murder.
Morons are to pre-occupied with the latest video game than to give a sh.t what's actually going on in the world. Makes one sick and embarrassed to be part of the same species.

Maybe I'm not, though. As Heysal pointed out in another thread, the human race is splitting into a human/sub human species. I was always told not to look down on other people, but in this case I am looking down at another species. A bit like one would look down on pigs for rolling around in their own feces.

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tradtke 12 years ago

I don't know what to think anymore. I understand that "we" is a huge generalization and in the grand scheme of things there are more rational people out their staying home than "the others". Unfortunately its not the peaceful families enjoying thanksgiving with their family that makes the news.
I think its selfish people that create the corporations that fuel greed to the people who really don't care about anyone but themselves. A vicious cycle.
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David Maschke

12 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Brain-dead, pathetic, subhuman pond scum. Should all be rounded up and thrown into FEMA camps. It's because of @ssholes like this that governments can get away with murder.
Morons are to pre-occupied with the latest video game than to give a sh.t what's actually going on in the world. Makes one sick and embarrassed to be part of the same species.

Maybe I'm not, though. As Heysal pointed out in another thread, the human race is splitting into a human/sub human species. I was always told not to look down on other people, but in this case I am looking down at another species. A bit like one would look down on pigs for rolling around in their own feces.

I've always had more respect for those who can speak their mind (even if it's opposite of my stance) than those who are unable to form an opinion, or worse yet, take the middle ground on everything.

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Kay King

12 years ago

I don't know what to think anymore. I understand that "we" is a huge generalization and in the grand scheme of things there are more rational people out their staying home than "the others". Unfortunately its not the peaceful families enjoying thanksgiving with their family that makes the news.

So stay home with your family on Black Friday and thanksgiving - and let other people make their own decisions. There were no deaths this year - and retail theft isn't confined to Black Friday.

I think its selfish people that create the corporations that fuel greed to the people who really don't care about anyone but themselves. A vicious cycle.

And your solution is what? Shut down corporations that process the food you eat, the diapers your kids wear, the cars you drive, the shampoo and cokes and school supplies, etc? All of them are "greedy people"...right? they exist only to harm you - you don't need them...do you?

I have to wonder if people complaining about "big corporations" listen to themselves. People talk like robots about "govt" or "corporations". The govt is people YOU elect - you get what you deserve and tolerate...or the blarney you believed. Corporations are people who took a chance and built a company to provide products other people want to buy.

The current rhetoric in this country seems to be that corporations are greedy because they don't "give more"....and of course that means giving "more money" that other (greedy?) people want.

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HeySal

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

So stay home with your family on Black Friday and thanksgiving - and let other people make their own decisions. There were no deaths this year - and retail theft isn't confined to Black Friday.

And your solution is what? Shut down corporations that process the food you eat, the diapers your kids wear, the cars you drive, the shampoo and cokes and school supplies, etc? All of them are "greedy people"...right? they exist only to harm you - you don't need them...do you?

I have to wonder if people complaining about "big corporations" listen to themselves. People talk like robots about "govt" or "corporations". The govt is people YOU elect - you get what you deserve and tolerate...or the blarney you believed. Corporations are people who took a chance and built a company to provide products other people want to buy.

The current rhetoric in this country seems to be that corporations are greedy because they don't "give more"....and of course that means giving "more money" that other (greedy?) people want.

Yes, there were people killed this year.
I don't agree WE elect anyone. I believe we are given the illusion of doing so.
Large corporations ARE greed machines. We should have already learned the lessons we need to know about them and abandoned them for locally run shops that support sustainable communities. Local shops hold sales, too.

The problem is not that there are sales on Black Friday - the problem is not that people will spend money the day after Thanksgiving. The problem is that crowds have been indoctrinated in consumerism so thoroughly that they turn rabid over a shopping event. That is not a good thing, no matter how harmless some people think it may be.
Mindless indoctrinated crowds like that are also voting - think of that when you say WE elect leaders. If that is true, it's these mindless hordes that are choosing - you trust people that can't figure out where a sale fits properly into the scheme of life to pick your leaders?

Nobody here is bashing businesses for being open and holding sales -- we are bashing people who are so hook, line, and sinker consumerist that they foam at the mouth like dogs over shopping. That should not sit right with ANYONE.

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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

The problem is that crowds have been indoctrinated in consumerism so thoroughly that they turn rabid over a shopping event. That is not a good thing, no matter how harmless some people think it may be.
Mindless indoctrinated crowds like that are also voting

... Nobody here is bashing businesses for being open and holding sales -- we are bashing people who are so hook, line, and sinker consumerist that they foam at the mouth like dogs over shopping. That should not sit right with ANYONE.

What you are calling "indoctrination" doesn't ring true to me. 56% of those polled say that they don't shop on Black Friday weekend. If that's indoctrination, it clearly isn't working well.

Some people simply are consumerists. It is a choice. Some people love shopping and some people want more and more "stuff." But clearly, from these numerous Black Friday conversations we've had here, I've noted that a lot of people in these threads, do not participate in Black Friday sales. They avoid the crowds and tussle. They do shop both online and later in the holiday season when it is less hectic.

I agree that greed is a hallmark of many large corporations, but are far more interested in making large corporations toe the line in terms of being good citizens with a conscience... like not pouring massive amounts of money into deregulating environmental concerns so that they can operate without regard for human safety and health.

Getting people who already have a propensity to shop, hyped up about sales ... well, that's what businesses do and nothing wrong with that to a point. Trying to get the maximum amount of people into a building to shop at the same time ... "door busting" sales ... is probably going to bite them in the ass in the long run. We are seeing more people turning to online sales and less "foot traffic" in the stores. The majority of shoppers simply hate the traffic and crowds and don't participate in the Black Friday frenzy.

Just wait until something really tragic happens at a Walmart or other big store during one of these sales and they are held accountable for it in court and you'll see even less interest in these events.

If an airline grossly overbooked a flight and jammed too many people in a plane and those people were killed in a crash, you better believe that they would be held accountable, and this is no different. Jamming that many people who are all hyped up over a TV into the stores ... all with the same thought ... they MUST get that TV before they run out ... well, that's a recipe for disaster, and sooner or later there are going to be some kids or adults trampled to death or some other tragedy, and they will be held accountable.

I personally can't imagine putting myself through what some people will endure .... waiting in lines to get in, dealing with massive crowds all rushing to get the sale items, standing for hours in checkout lines. To me it's insanity, but then ... I hate shopping.

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seasoned

12 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

If an airline grossly overbooked a flight and jammed too many people in a plane and those people were killed in a crash, you better believe that they would be held accountable, and this is no different.

Believe it or not, that HAS happened before! IN THE US! Within the past decade! The result? The FAA validated that crashes were caused by an overweight/balance problem, and instigated new rules. NOW, the airlines may move people around, and even kick some people off a flight, or get a larger plane, to comply. Still, I haven't heard of anyone JAILING people.

Fly on planes enough, ESPECIALLY smaller ones, and you may be affected by this. One time I was even moved from first class to COACH because of it. I have also seen planes with like 2 people per row made for 4-6 because of it. Tough I haven't been kicked off, I HAVE seen people kicked off. They always refer to weight/balance issues for a reason or if queried. TECHNICALLY, it is the airlines fault SO, if you have a seat you paid for, they treat it as equipment failure.(For purposes of rescheduling or vouchers.)

Steve

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HeySal

12 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

What you are calling "indoctrination" doesn't ring true to me. 56% of those polled say that they don't shop on Black Friday weekend. If that's indoctrination, it clearly isn't working well.

Some people simply are consumerists. It is a choice. Some people love shopping and some people want more and more "stuff." But clearly, from these numerous Black Friday conversations we've had here, I've noted that a lot of people in these threads, do not participate in Black Friday sales. They avoid the crowds and tussle. They do shop both online and later in the holiday season when it is less hectic.

I agree that greed is a hallmark of many large corporations, but are far more interested in making large corporations toe the line in terms of being good citizens with a conscience... like not pouring massive amounts of money into deregulating environmental concerns so that they can operate without regard for human safety and health.

Getting people who already have a propensity to shop, hyped up about sales ... well, that's what businesses do and nothing wrong with that to a point. Trying to get the maximum amount of people into a building to shop at the same time ... "door busting" sales ... is probably going to bite them in the ass in the long run. We are seeing more people turning to online sales and less "foot traffic" in the stores. The majority of shoppers simply hate the traffic and crowds and don't participate in the Black Friday frenzy.

Just wait until something really tragic happens at a Walmart or other big store during one of these sales and they are held accountable for it in court and you'll see even less interest in these events.

If an airline grossly overbooked a flight and jammed too many people in a plane and those people were killed in a crash, you better believe that they would be held accountable, and this is no different. Jamming that many people who are all hyped up over a TV into the stores ... all with the same thought ... they MUST get that TV before they run out ... well, that's a recipe for disaster, and sooner or later there are going to be some kids or adults trampled to death or some other tragedy, and they will be held accountable.

I personally can't imagine putting myself through what some people will endure .... waiting in lines to get in, dealing with massive crowds all rushing to get the sale items, standing for hours in checkout lines. To me it's insanity, but then ... I hate shopping.

The indoctrination is there -- it's not going to "take" with everyone. It can be categorized more as a cult like mentality. How do we know it's "indoctrination" then?
Social norms - status quos seeking becomes materialistic. Our status quos used to be intellect, integrity, ect. Now they are homes, cars, toys, etc.
We do have subliminal advertising - it was never illegalized.
Look at the amounts of severe credit card debt that gets racked up vs the utility and necessity of the items purchased. People are willing to get themselves into major hock to shop. It has become to some people an addiction every bit as much as some drugs.
Lack of economics education in school. Remember when we were taught in school to manage our money? Well, you're a lot younger than I am, so you might not.
Have you noticed the tendency toward society reviling the poor? That's brainwashing and it's a new attitude in the last few decades. When I was a kid, nobody was called revolting names for being poor.......or thought to be stupid just because they aren't rich.

You can see the results of the "cultism" in the forum, too. How many times have you seen posts that go something like -- "Hey, this guy can't be smart: I've seen where he lives." The poor are all drawn up into one bundle and are becoming despised. Many will dis this statement and claim to never judge someone by their wallet - but dig and you will find that is not really so. I can even fall victim to this one when I'm not careful, and I know better. Some of the most financially well to do people I've ever known would be thought to be bums or "welfare moochers" if you saw them on the street.

I won't go into this end of it but you can analyze the linguistics of a lot of verbal, written, distributed statements and, if you study enough material, you can actually point to where different pieces of indoctrination come from and build profiles. It's not a hard indoctrination to follow at all. The problem with indoctrination, is that it initially comes from the corp/gov entities who are interested in social engineering, but the successfully indoctrinated go on to do the work of the controlling entities and will indoctrinate their own children and families.

3 people dead and this is the woman's excuse for cold blooded murder?
Woman Kills Three For Last X-Box at Chicago Wal-Mart - The Daily Currant

There is nothing normal about this crap at all - and just because ALL consumers don't light up like this crazy wench doesn't mean there isn't indoctrination into consumerism in this society. There are a lot more subtle forms of it working.

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Midnight Oil 12 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

3 people dead and this is the woman's excuse for cold blooded murder?
Woman Kills Three For Last X-Box at Chicago Wal-Mart - The Daily Currant

Satire

About - The Daily Currant
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- sbucciarel Banned 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Midnight Oil
  
  Satire
  
  About - The Daily Currant
  
  d'oh ... lol. When I was reading that story, I thought ... why am I just reading all this stuff here when I have read many Black Friday stories that don't report this (not the fake stabbing incident, but other "facts" like "this has been the deadliest BF ever). I was searching for this story being reported by a reliable news source and could not find it.
  
  I've found two reported stabbings ... one in my state of VA, both not fatal, thank goodness.
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

3 people dead and this is the woman's excuse for cold blooded murder?
Woman Kills Three For Last X-Box at Chicago Wal-Mart - The Daily Currant

There is nothing normal about this crap at all - and just because ALL consumers don't light up like this crazy wench doesn't mean there isn't indoctrination into consumerism in this society. There are a lot more subtle forms of it working.

We'll have to agree to disagree to indoctrination and cults and such then. I believe these people all have free will.

EDIT: The story is fake ... satire. :rolleyes:
As for that Chicago women who just murdered 3 people for the last xbox... that's insanity and evil, and she probably won't ever be free to buy her little darling any gift. Of course it isn't the norm. Listen to this woman:

Mary Robbins, a married mother of two, reportedly wrestled her competitors to the ground before fatally wounding them with a sharpened Phillips head screwdriver.

...

"Of course I'd do it all over again," Robbins proclaimed from a Cook County jail cell. "My little Dustin is going to have an X-Box for Christmas this year. No one can take that away from him. Not even the police.

"Shopping isn't a hobby for me, it's a war. So I have to spend a little time behind bars. So what? I didn't punk out. I fought hard for my family, and I'm proud of that."

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tradtke 12 years ago

I agree, well said
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SteveJohnson

12 years ago

It appeared to me that this year was much more IN control.

I've never participated in Black Friday shopping. I hate the crowds, I hate the traffic, I hate the lines. Would rather pay more money for something just to avoid it.

But I didn't have to - all of the sales were online early. Bought my stuff and never left my house. Some of it will get shipped, some of it I'll pick up next week when things are back to normal.

My kid was going to go stand in line at BestBuy at 4pm Thanksgiving Day to get a ticket for a TV that he couldn't buy until 6pm, assuming that they didn't run out of them before he could get the ticket. Instead, I woke him up at 4am when the sale went active, he bought his TV - which they're delivering for free - and then went back to sleep.

I went out Friday for a few things and it was surprisingly sane.

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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

I've never participated in Black Friday or Black Thanksgiving. I'm a Cyber Monday type of girl.

The people who stand for hours waiting for the doors to open and then run madly, trampling and pushing other people, shooting people in parking lots, tazeing people, dragging cops with their cars trying to get away ... etc. (this year's assorted BF violence news), are bottom dwellers and these things happen mostly at stores like Walmart and Best Buy and Target, etc.

These type of sales, called "door busters", obviously an aggressive name for what those big box retailers hope will be an aggressive sale, attract riff raff ... the bottom dwellers.

I prefer the quiet, civil click of my mouse button online ... bada bing ... done shopping and I don't have to mingle with the riff raff.

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KingOfContentMarketing

12 years ago

I don't know if you heard this term: Brown Thurdsay, shopping on Thanksgiving day. Jimmy Kimmel says forget that, we have to quash this term here and now (at 1:25):

Jimmy Kimmel is Against "Brown Thursday" -...

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seasoned

12 years ago

I am agreeing more and more with Jimmy Kimmel. OK, this "brown thursday" appears to be a new term. If so, there is ONE place that has come up with that STUPID term! How about punishing those guys commensurate with the new treatment of people on a day that is supposed to be peaceful, quiet, and meditative!?!?!?!?

Do you know the story about why black friday came to be known as black friday!?!?!?!? Costs are SO high, and TAXES are SO high, etc.... that it became EXPENSIVE to even sell goods. SO expensive, that they ran at a LOSS! Since the NEGATIVE values have, in accounting, often been RED, this came to be called "Operating in the RED"!

The friday after thanksgiving, they had HUGE sales that STILL caused the first profit of the year. Since POSITIVE numbers are written in BLACK, it was called "Operating in the BLACK"! So THAT is how black friday came to be known as BLACK friday!

So what does BROWN indicate? *******NOTHING*******!

Steve

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Ricardo Furtado

12 years ago

Black Friday chaos is online too. All sorts of companies and people offering all kinds of deals for Black Friday.

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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Ricardo Furtado

Black Friday chaos is online too. All sorts of companies and people offering all kinds of deals for Black Friday.

There's nothing chaotic about shopping, making money, and saving money. What's chaotic is the violence, shoving, pushing, extreme crowds, traffic jams, etc. that are associated with Black Friday sales at some stores in some cities.

What's chaotic about shopping online for deals?

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Ricardo Furtado

12 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

There's nothing chaotic about shopping, making money, and saving money. What's chaotic is the violence, shoving, pushing, extreme crowds, traffic jams, etc. that are associated with Black Friday sales at some stores in some cities.

What's chaotic about shopping online for deals?

The thousands of offers sent your way, most of them just junk!

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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Ricardo Furtado

The thousands of offers sent your way, most of them just junk!

That's sort of controlled by you. I don't get any junk offers sent my way. I'm not on many lists and the ones I'm on are quality.

Here's some early stats on this year.

U.S. Retail Holiday Sales Up 2.3%, Foot Traffic Declines - Bloomberg

Record-Breaking Black Friday Online Spending Up 19 Percent; Mobile Sales Surge 43 Percent | TechCrunch

And this is what I assumed would happen when they decided to open for Thanksgiving.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/bu...iday.html?_r=0

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Ricardo Furtado

12 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

That's sort of controlled by you. I don't get any junk offers sent my way. I'm not on many lists and the ones I'm on are quality.

Here's some early stats on this year.

U.S. Retail Holiday Sales Up 2.3%, Foot Traffic Declines - Bloomberg

Record-Breaking Black Friday Online Spending Up 19 Percent; Mobile Sales Surge 43 Percent | TechCrunch

And this is what I assumed would happen when they decided to open for Thanksgiving.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/bu...iday.html?_r=0

Awesome info. Thanks for sharing.

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LarryC

12 years ago

This article has gotten a lot of views today. At first I thought it was real, but then it became obvious it was a parody. At least I hope so, lol. I'm not familiar with the site, but I assume it's an Onion style piece.

Woman Kills Three For Last X-Box at Chicago Wal-Mart - The Daily Currant

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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by LarryC

This article has gotten a lot of views today. At first I thought it was real, but then it became obvious it was a parody. At least I hope so, lol. I'm not familiar with the site, but I assume it's an Onion style piece.

Woman Kills Three For Last X-Box at Chicago Wal-Mart - The Daily Currant

lol. I got my first clue that I was reading fake news when I saw the sidebar on that piece.

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HeySal

12 years ago

Well, It would take a dissertation to change your mind, Susan, and I'm not real motivated to do a dissertation on anything I'm not getting paid to do one on

So.......yeah, the perps of this kind of violence definitely are not normal in any sense, but the general premise holds with enough time and material presented. Just bear this one in mind:

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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Well, It would take a dissertation to change your mind, Susan, and I'm not real motivated to do a dissertation on anything I'm not getting paid to do one on

So.......yeah, the perps of this kind of violence definitely are not normal in any sense, but the general premise holds with enough time and material presented. Just bear this one in mind:

This image is from 2012 and either you or someone else has altered it to make it look like it's from 2013. It was probably a staged photo to start with (since the people seem to be inside a building and not outside waiting for the doors to open). Makes no difference.

When the media submits fake stories and fake photos, it's media manipulation or propaganda (and zombies don't really exist).

Here's the photo from 2012
The Manipulation Of Mankind Was A Masterpiece Of Planning | Alternative

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Kay King 12 years ago

Om a lighter note - I just finished my CyberMonday shopping. Nothing exciting - 5 pairs of Lee jeans and khakis at 70% off did it for me
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- MikeAmbrosio 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  Om a lighter note - I just finished my CyberMonday shopping. Nothing exciting - 5 pairs of Lee jeans and khakis at 70% off did it for me
  
  70% off? Care to share the link?
  
  Always looking for bargains...
  
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  Kay King 12 years ago
  
  It's at ( no affiliate links involved, of course)
  
  lee.com
  
  These are my favorite pants - fit great, last forever and are comfortable.
  
  I think the sale I got was over yesterday but there's 50% off today/ I just checked the page and the percentage is 50% today instead of the 70% I found over the weekend. I put the order in really late last night and assumed it was a "cyber monday" price but must have been black friday holdover.
  
  Page I bought from is
  
  Lee.com - - Category
  
  but prices have changed since my mid-night purchase.
  
  Today, there's a coupon code for 10% off orders over $65 so 60% is still possible - the code is
  
  cyber10
  
  (sorry for the rambling post - was checking the site and pricing while posting)
  
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HeySal

12 years ago

I figured it was just local news and didn't even look at the source. I know one officer was either killed or wounded, a store clerk was killed - someone else but don't remember what I read.

Okay - I passed a piece of sarcasm off without looking at it first. Me aculpa

- but let me ask what you thought when you first read it? It wasn't bizarrely unlikely was it? Just saying............ the situation has to be ridiculous or we wouldn't have to wonder it were true or comedy. These are normal enough occurrences to have worked themselves into the nation's comedy.

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bertyounger

12 years ago

When it starts Thanksgiving night then the answer is yes.

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tradtke

12 years ago

I think society has just gotten more aggressive and this reflects it. Of coarse more people are at home with their families than out fighting for that prized TV, but unfortunately the people home with their family don't hit the front page as easy as someone involved in a shoot-out for a video game system (not that this happened). So these incidences are what the general public see for Black Friday Incidences. Some store's, the most notorious being Walmart, Best Buy and Toys 'R' us. were out of control overrun with mobs, but others were busy, but very controlled. My wife and I went to Kmart Thanksgiving evening after dinner found a parking spot fairly close. Went right inside, waited a few hours at the back of the store with a few other people talking about how crappy the Packers played, got our TV and left. It was very casual and well controlled. As we drove home we passed Walmart which had lines across the street estimated at 2,000 people. Toys 'R" US was busy, but not nearly that bad. I think out of all the stores Bust Buy seems to handle the crowds the best since very rarely do read about an incident there. There was one Walmart where the doors were broke off the hinges, employees overrun one, being killed after being trampled. Police were forced to shoot (wound) a man in a Chicago Kohls. Me, personally I do my usual Home Depot trip Friday afternoon.

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Kay King

12 years ago

I figured it was just local news and didn't even look at the source. I know one officer was either killed or wounded, a store clerk was killed - someone else but don't remember what I read.

An officer was hurt apprehending a shoplifter....there are no stories about any shop clerk killed due to black friday....except the link you posted earlier that is from 2008 when a clerk was killed.

From the link you posted above:

We had six people trampled to death at the Best buy, four at the Bed Bath Beyond, and two fatal stabbings at Wal-Mart,"

Most people would know something was wrong - as no deaths have been reported and a dozen deaths on Black Friday in one town would be in the news.

But - if your goal is to prove a point - you see that paragraph and think "see, I was right - people were killed" - and you pass it on without question. Then others do the same and before you know it someone has started a petition to ban Black Friday because of all the people killed.

Except no one died.

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Daniel Evans 12 years ago

has Black Friday gotten out of control

I'm sure he has but only to defend his friend Robinson.
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MikeAmbrosio

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

But - if your goal is to prove a point - you see that paragraph and think "see, I was right - people were killed" - and you pass it on without question. Then others do the same and before you know it someone has started a petition to ban Black Friday because of all the people killed.

Interestingly, I have seen Sal get on people for this exact thing - LOL.

I guess it can happen to anyone

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tradtke 12 years ago

Even though as I've voiced that Black Friday has gotten way out of hand. If you think about it statistically there are probably millions of people out shopping and if there is only 1 death I'd call that a frieken miracle. I did here of one employee being trampled at the entrance and died. That same store all their front doors were broke off as the rush started so I'd say that store simply lost control. The police incident took place in a Chicago sub. Officers responded to a shoplifter, during the altercation one officer got his arm stuck in a car door and was dragged through the parking lot. The second officer shot the driver hitting him 2 times with non-life threatening wounds. Those were the only Major incidences I heard of.
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- Kay King 12 years ago
  
  I did here of one employee being trampled at the entrance and died.
  
  in 2008 - not this year - that was the point above
  
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MichaelPaul

12 years ago

Well it seems year after year it gets more dangerous ya know. For me personally I try to stay away from them. My wife on the other hand likes to go. All I can say is stay safe and be aware of your surroundings because people get a little crazy this time of year.