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The brain science of comformity

by socialentry
17 replies
From the WSJ:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-bra...22013?mod=e2fb

Originally Posted by WSJ

. The discovery that everyone disagrees with you turns out to typically activate the amygdala and the insular cortex, brain regions associated with anxiety, disgust and unease. It can also activate regions associated with reinforcement learning and error correction. This suggests that when we stand apart from a group this way, we don't just feel different and exposed but distressingly wrong. The more these brain regions were activated, the more likely someone was to seek relief and conform.


...



Public and private conformity are quite different neurobiological processes, and we don't know which variety most propels people to rally around untruths. But both options raise a similar Orwellian specter: that we can come to believe that war is peace, that freedom is slavery and that it definitely was Option B.


Your thoughts?
#brain #comformity #science
  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

    I've seen experiments that showed the same thing. One person in a group was not told about a lie that was being shared as true. At first the person would disagree with the lie shared by the rest of the group...then slowly, the peer pressure got to them and the would agree with something they knew not to be true.

    The desire for social acceptance is stronger than any need to think rationally. It's why 80% of us believe in completely impossible imaginary forces that are watching us and the world. It's why we believe things that are impossible, just because we heard a group of people say these claims as true.

    People can be made to laugh at jokes that are purposely not funny, agree with lies they know not to be true, and shape their opinions by what they know will be most accepted.

    We are actors on a huge stage...each believing that everyone else knows the lines...and we do not.

    The wisdom of mobs...and why we think differently in a group than when we are alone.

    Added a tad later; In fact, in selling, if you want something to be instantly accepted as true, start the statement with "Everyone knows that...." or "Everyone says that...." or "Everyone agrees that..."...or "Everyone we ask tells us..." A close cousin of "Have you ever noticed that...." (and then say whatever you want them to agree with.)

    This complete lack of rational thinking, in the face of a disagreeing crowd...is why hypnosis works.
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    • Profile picture of the author SARubin
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      It's why 80% of us believe in completely impossible imaginary forces that are watching us and the world.
      Nooooo! My tinfoil hat already took care of all those mind reading aliens


      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


      The wisdom of mobs...and why we think differently in a group than when we are alone.
      Also in a large group (mob... riot...), some people feel a certain amount of anonymity that allows them to think they can get away with things, without taking full responsibility for their own actions (i.e. hey, if everyone else is breaking things, and looting stores... then I can too)
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

        Also in a large group (mob... riot...), some people feel a certain amount of anonymity that allows them to think they can get away with things, without taking full responsibility for their own actions (i.e. hey, if everyone else is breaking things, and looting stores... then I can too)

        Also, a group will feel far less responsibility when someone needs help,,,especially if there is some risk in helping.

        For example, someone is drowning in a swimming pool. If you're the only one there, you jump in. If 100 people are there, we each feel 1/100th the responsibility to help. And so nobody helps, or it takes far longer for someone to jump in.

        It's also a contributor to mob violence. People who would normally never think of attacking a person will often join in with the mob, because they feel a need to be accepted by the mob...one of the team. .
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        • Profile picture of the author SARubin
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          It's also a contributor to mob violence. People who would normally never think of attacking a person will often join in with the mob, because they feel a need to be accepted by the mob...one of the team. .
          Yes, this also (likely) has something to do with the instinct of "self preservation."

          It's better to join the mob, and do something I wouldn't normally do... then to have the mob turn on ME, because I'm not one of them.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

            Yes, this also (likely) has something to do with the instinct of "self preservation."

            It's better to join the mob, and do something I wouldn't normally do... then to have the mob turn on ME, because I'm not one of them.
            That's an interesting hypothesis. It also may be that conforming to the group helps survival simply because being pat of a group makes it more likely that you'll survive...find a mate.. and have children.

            And in most of human history, I would think that most predators would be large animals, rather than other tribes of humans. So greater numbers would increase your chance of survival. And it's more efficient for a group of hunters to hunt, rather than just one man.

            You're right about groups though. Eventually they will find a member to shun. And everyone's fear is that they could be that person.

            I watched an experiment on TV where two teams of about ten people were randomly selected as part of an experiment. The subjects thought the experiment was something else. The people on each team developed friendships, After a week, the participants were then randomly re-assigned to form two completely different groups. It took only a few days for the "loyalty to the group" to be stronger than any friendships that were formed in the first group. Our herd instinct is stronger than our individual friendships.

            When I was in high school, I never understood why we had team spirit and didn't like the other team. Why did we think we had a better team? It was an accident of where we lived, and yet we saw other schools as our competition.

            When a customer buys from me and says "We like to buy locally". I also hear it from other retailers...that people should shop locally. I don't understand it. Do they also mean that people in different areas should also shop locally? So they shouldn't travel to shop with me? or others?

            I think what retailers mean by "It's better to shop locally" is "I want a reason for you to shop here, so I don't have to up my game"

            To me, "shopping locally" was never a compliment. If I were dating a girl, I would never say "The reason I asked you out...is that I like to date locally".

            Humans.
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            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              "It's better to shop locally"
              you had to go and say that didnt you? I shop locally when ever possible... and here is why.. locally for me there is a local and county sales tax. 6% to the county and 1% to the city. .07 of every dollar I spend is kept within my local govts.

              Granted my hard earned .01 per dollar for the city helps pay for a guy every morning to water the 3 gazillion flower baskets lining my towns streets.. but the county tax... when I send my child of to school every day.. he brings nothing with him, except is completed homework, and books he brought home... we send no pencils, pens, crayons, paper, scissors - nothing... that 6% pays for that. I shop locally not only for my sons education, but for the 10k+ kids in my county that goto school as well.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                you had to go and say that didnt you? I shop locally when ever possible... and here is why.. locally for me there is a local and county sales tax. 6% to the county and 1% to the city. .07 of every dollar I spend is kept within my local govts.
                What you just gave is a reason to shop locally. Rational self interest..and the interest of others.

                This is the first time I've ever heard anyone give a rational reason to shop locally. The closest thing I've heard so far was "It keeps money local". And my first thought is "If every community just keeps it's money local, nobody wins...unless we keep our money local, but every other nearby community also shops here...then we have an advantage'

                Most people say it, because it sounds like they are doing something for others, mostly the local shop owners. When someone says it to me, I know they mean well, and thank them...but it's almost an insult, like saying "It's nothing you've done to make the sale. You just happen to be local...so here's my money".Me? I buy wherever they treat me the best.

                Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

                For example, they might push their kids into a lot of extracurriculars or to do better at school.
                They wanted to brag that their kid was captain of the hockey team, or was an ace pianist or was headed to Medical school or whatnot. They might take a very active part in charitable/community events.
                Do you have children?
                What you say may be true for some, or partly true for many. But I suspect that most parents entire being is all about what's best for the child. Being proud is just a side benefit. But having someone you love succeed isn't about you, it's about them.
                I always wanted my son to have lots of friends and learn as much as he could. Not so I could brag, but so his life would be easier...more profitable to him.
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  • Profile picture of the author SARubin
    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

    From the WSJ:

    Originally Posted by WSJ

    . The discovery that everyone disagrees with you turns out to typically activate the amygdala and the insular cortex, brain regions associated with anxiety, disgust and unease. It can also activate regions associated with reinforcement learning and error correction. This suggests that when we stand apart from a group this way, we don't just feel different and exposed but distressingly wrong. The more these brain regions were activated, the more likely someone was to seek relief and conform.
    ...
    Public and private conformity are quite different neurobiological processes, and we don't know which variety most propels people to rally around untruths. But both options raise a similar Orwellian specter: that we can come to believe that war is peace, that freedom is slavery and that it definitely was Option B.


    Your thoughts?

    I'd be curious to know if, and how the researchers psychologically profiled the subjects in the study, before hand?

    And what criteria was used to determine whether or not they actually cared about conformity within the test group?

    If we take a follower / conformist type personality, or someone who desperately wants to belong with a particular group, then the study makes perfect sense.

    But if we take someone who's a loner, sociopath, or just completely disagrees with the status quo of the particular group, then I think that person would take a certain amount of pride in not conforming. They might even pick option "A", just to shake things up a bit.


    Now, as far as the broader ramifications of those results go...

    That desire for conformity is the psychological foundation that allows propaganda to work.
    And when it come to the general population of the world, in aggregate... Yes, propaganda has been successfully used for generations. In part because so many people do want to fit in with the crowd, and follow leaders.


    We can also talk about "mob rule" when it comes to following the crowd, and what that means for society. But that could take up an entire book, and this is just a forum post.
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

      If we take a follower / conformist type personality, or someone who desperately wants to belong with a particular group, then the study makes perfect sense.
      I think most people fall in this category.Even most people who look rebellious at first sight usually adhere to a subculture. It's just they have contempt for outsiders.

      Question is for me:
      Is there a way to probe to know where an individual for these traits?
      Is there any way to probe the individual for the group which they most identify with?

      I knew a girl from high school who ran up to 10 k + of credit card debt, mostly from restaurants and social outings.

      I asked her one day how in the world could she spend that much on going out and she answered: "You're a loner. You wouldn't understand".

      I can only imagine the pressure must have been enormous on her to rack up such debt.

      I've also met a few successful professionals who I think were motivated by similar feelings.They weren't foolish enough to spend on clothes or cars but it expressed itself in other ways.

      For example, they might push their kids into a lot of extracurriculars or to do better at school.
      They wanted to brag that their kid was captain of the hockey team, or was an ace pianist or was headed to Medical school or whatnot. They might take a very active part in charitable/community events.

      I know such motivation exists and that it is a major influence in most people's lives but I've never been able to probe for or leverage it tbh unless the prospect somehow brought this up.
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      • Profile picture of the author SARubin
        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

        I think most people fall in this category.Even most people who look rebellious at first sight usually adhere to a subculture. It's just they have contempt for outsiders.
        I agree. Even people who want to appear as loners, generally still want to belong "somewhere."

        It's an age old paradox: We want to be treated as unique individuals... but still want to belong to a group of like minded people.


        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

        Question is for me:
        Is there a way to probe to know where an individual for these traits?
        Is there any way to probe the individual for the group which they most identify with?

        I've never been able to probe for or leverage it tbh unless the prospect somehow brought this up.

        The only way I've ever been able to come close, is by asking questions and/or observing peoples language (verbal language, body language, and sometimes the clothes or surroundings they choose in their lives) while listening and looking for patterns.

        When you're interacting with someone and they start using certain patterns, it's a good indication of where their mind is at (at least at the current moment)

        A quick verbal example could be, when you're explaining a marketing strategy to someone, and they say something like "I don't know, it just doesn't sound right to me."

        The word "sound" could indicate that they're taking in the information in an auditory manner.

        And you could reply with "OK, I hear you. Let me explain it to you in a different way."

        But if they say "I just don't see how it will work" the word "see" could indicate a visual thinker.

        Your reply could be "OK, let's look at it from a different point of view."

        You're still presenting the same strategy, just using different words to explain your message (the words "they" can relate to)


        An example of body language could be: When someone stands tall and proud, it usually indicates a certain amount of confidence with the situation. But if they stand slumped over, with they're hands drawn in close to the body (almost like they're trying to make themselves smaller) it's often a signal of insecurity.

        If you move in slightly closer to the person, and they don't pull away, it could mean you have rapport and they trust you enough to let you into their "personal space."

        If they pull away, or tense up, then you need to back away, if you hope to maintain any level of trust and rapport with them.


        Of course, just one or two words, or body movements do not make a pattern. but when you start you hear and see certain clues, then you can start looking and listening for patterns.


        Same thing goes for when you start to hear patterns of conformity and subservience.

        When someone uses cliche's like "don't rock the boat" or "it's better not to make waves."

        It could mean they have a conformist personality, and they really need the security of being accepted by the main stream.

        (it might also mean they just like the ocean, and boats?) Again, one or two signals doesn't make a pattern. Three or more, could start to indicate a pattern.

        Also, we can never really put people in a box, because there's always situational behavior patterns. You might meet someone who's just had a particular experience, and they could give you glaring personality patterns. Which at the moment are true.

        But once the impact of the experience wears off, they may revert back to a different / normal pattern of behavior.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

          "
          It's an age old paradox: We want to be treated as unique individuals... but still want to belong to a group of like minded people.
          I think (but don't know) that this can be explained as...we want to think of ourselves as unique...special.......and accepted by others.

          So we keep trying to fit in a group.....while also wanting them to see us as special.
          The problem is...we all want to be seen as special. We don't want to be special...just seen that way. So...we find a group we can belong to...and the group is seen as special.

          Which explains tattoos and pierced tongues.


          Humans.


          It reminds me of seeing a photo of a Board Of Directors of a company. They were all beautiful blonde women. The caption read "Diversity".
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          • Profile picture of the author SARubin
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            So we keep trying to fit in a group.....while also wanting them to see us as special.
            The problem is...we all want to be seen as special. We don't want to be special...just seen that way. So...we find a group we can belong to...and the group is seen as special.

            Which explains tattoos and pierced tongues
            Actually, that makes a lot of sense. I have mulled over that question many times in the past (why freaks of a feather flock together?) I think you may have just filled a gap in my understanding. Thank you.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by SARubin View Post

              Actually, that makes a lot of sense. I have mulled over that question many times in the past (why freaks of a feather flock together?) I think you may have just filled a gap in my understanding. Thank you.
              You may like this.

              Years ago, I was attending a Dan Kennedy event. Perhaps 1,000 business people were attending, all marketing something.

              I was talking to a woman friend of mine that also attended. She asked me what I thought of the people attending the event. I said....

              "The people here are divided into three groups. Let's call them guppies, piranha, and sharks. 95% of the people here are guppies. They swim with the piranha...and just think the piranha are other guppies. The piranha recognize the other piranha....and know the difference between the piranha and guppies. The piranha are here to eat the guppies.
              Maybe 3% of the people here are piranha. There are perhaps a dozen sharks here as well. The guppies just think the sharks are benevolent huge guppies. But the sharks eat the guppies..and the piranha. Some of the piranha recognize the sharks as sharks, and some just think they are huge piranha. And this event is a gathering of a huge school of guppies, and a few piranha...who came for the guppies..and a few sharks, who put on the event. And the guppies think this is a field trip...a vacation...a school......But the piranha and the sharks know.... this event is a feeding frenzy"

              She looked at me with wide eyes, maybe a little startled. She said "What are you?" I said "I'm a piranha". She said "What do I have to do to be a piranha?"

              And I said "Sell to the guppies. And you're already a piranha. All I did was let you know about the guppies".

              She's now an exceptional online marketer, and she did it without my help.
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              • Profile picture of the author SARubin
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                "The people here are divided into three groups. Let's call them guppies, piranha, and sharks. 95% of the people here are guppies. They swim with the piranha...and just think the piranha are other guppies. The piranha recognize the other piranha....and know the difference between the piranha and guppies. The piranha are here to eat the guppies.
                Maybe 3% of the people here are piranha. There are perhaps a dozen sharks here as well. The guppies just think the sharks are benevolent huge guppies. But the sharks eat the guppies..and the piranha. Some of the piranha recognize the sharks as sharks, and some just think they are huge piranha. And this event is a gathering of a huge school of guppies, and a few piranha...who came for the guppies..and a few sharks, who put on the event. And the guppies think this is a field trip...a vacation...a school......But the piranha and the sharks know.... this event is a feeding frenzy"
                I don't know, Claude.

                That whole story sounds a little fishy to me.

                Are you telling me groupers of people go to those events, and then just flounder around, instead of participating?

                I imagine most of them don't have the heart, or sole, to be successful. So they'll just snapper up whatever the big fish are selling , and never actually use it.

                Then when things don't work out for them, they just piss anemone for weeks. And they never clam up about how nothing works.

                If those clown-fish would just perch themselves at the front of the class, and tuna in, they might actually learn something useful.

                But instead, they just waste their money. And sure enough, when someone lures them in with the next bright shiny object, they'll take the bait, and get hooked every time.



                (Wow, see what happens when I read one of your stories after drinking three shots of Tequila?)


                But in all seriousness, your analogy really does sum up most of the people who attend those events.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanbiddulph
    Yep.

    Most humans live in the illusion of fear. Most humans step into the truth of love on weekends, or after a big sale, or after some dream comes true. Then sprint back to the illusion of fear after the lovey feelings wear off.

    Chief among the illusions of fear is wanting to fit in SO much because you are terrified of being left out, being rejected, being expelled, and because of that, you feel you will.....die. Or, suffer horribly during your life until you die.

    I am not Blogging Buddha or Blogging Lama but I become more aware of this illusion every day. Like, 1 year ago I would have feared writing this post. Because I believed Warriors would criticize me for writing it. I'd be an outsider. I'd not fit in. A reject. Seriously, these fears ran through my mind during old Warrior days.

    Now I'm like, it is an illusion. It is virtually impossible to live aligned with this truth but when you tread into fears you see we are all One and you cannot be left out from One-ness. You can't be a part of One whole, in the sense that saying you are a part instantly invalidates the truth, making that idea of "part" an illusion.

    Again, brain stuff and physiology stuff and studies, I get it. Keeps our egos busy. Something to do. Something to ponder. Something to discuss. All well and good.

    But when you make your day about knifing into your fears to spread love, to have fun, to help human beings 1 to 1 and to making an loving impact wherever you appear, not only does IM and blogging get easier, life gets easier.

    Everything that we believe outside of love is an illusion. The idea of conformity is an illusion. You can't follow a herd if EVERYTHING is the herd. You need not try to fit in. You already are in. Whole and complete.

    Treading into the fears of criticism and rejection and all that juicy stuff helped me to slowly see this. Emphasis on, slowly.

    Practical tip: please guys, do not watch the news. It screams conformity, being designed to manipulate you through fear, so you can fit in and follow and keep watching the news and fit in and know what to fear...and the cycle continues.

    Circling the globe has helped me view the American news for what it is: a system designed to scare the crap out of you about the rest of the dangerous world, so you can stay in America. We have a finely-tuned propaganda machine that makes the stuff in Vietnam seem like Amateur Hour. And yes, I lived in Vietnam for 3 months and vividly recall the propaganda being blared on loudspeakers in the streets and I cringed when I read what the government published via major media outlets.

    But the US - very very very sneakily, and this is SO much easier to see when you are 11,000 miles away from the whole machine in SE Asia - is really really really good at scaring folks to conform along many channels.

    Open up guys. Dive into those fears. You'll be not following, nor leading, but a humble Whole.

    Thanks for the cool share.

    Ryan
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by ryanbiddulph View Post


      Everything that we believe outside of love is an illusion.
      I hope my pants are real.
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      • Profile picture of the author eccj
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I hope my pants are real.
        We all hope they are real

        Then again, kids who backpack around SE Asia get all the answers within a month of landing so I'm not confident they are real.
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