A Question for Cold Callers ...

15 years ago

Q1: what works for me; I call back a couple more times in 48 hours if I still don't get through I'll make up a simple flyer/proposal (ex: showing their Place listing before and after) and simply drive over and give them a face to the caller, leave the flyer for the owner and tell them I'll call them back in a day or two. They're usually very happy that I took the time to stop in.

Q2: If they seem interested but busy, I keep the conversation going indefinitely. This gives me the opportunity to stay in the front of their mind so when they are ready I can get the opportunity to help them with thier marketing.

after awhile trust your instincts, you just get a feel for what works for you.

Heidi

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Mwind076

15 years ago

Originally Posted by baib21

How long do you wait before calling back when you don't get through to the decision maker?

Also, how many times will you call (without being told that they are flat-out not interested) before taking a lead off your list?

(Ok, I lied ... it's actually two questions

)

Calling only pays off if you are persistent. If no one is telling you no, or don't call back, then keep calling. They are used to getting calls, you are not bugging anyone. In fact, I usually make friends with the receptionist and say things like "I called earlier and you said he was on the phone, is he available now where I could catch him for a second?" Or "I know I've called 3 times today, but I just want to make sure I catch him since he's in." Most people are generally nice because they know they can get in trouble if they are "TOO" rude. Rude gatekeepers will be just that no matter what you do, it's not personal, and they do it all day, not just to you.

To answer your question:

I will call a number/contact until I get a yes or a no from the DM. If that means I call in the morning and get a vm or the DM is not in, then I go back to the sec and ask when they will be in next. I call back then, and as many times I need to to reach them. It could be 4 times in a day if they are on the phone but in the office, or it could be once later that week. Just depends.

You never take a lead off your list. You mark it NI - the reason they are NI and unless they said DNC you call them back at a later date. Never remove leads, keep the notes on them.

Hope that helps, you can email me if you have any other questions, I've been doing cold calls/appointment setting for 6 years.

Thanks
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Dr Dan

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mwind076

Calling only pays off if you are persistent. If no one is telling you no, or don't call back, then keep calling. They are used to getting calls, you are not bugging anyone. In fact, I usually make friends with the receptionist and say things like "I called earlier and you said he was on the phone, is he available now where I could catch him for a second?" Or "I know I've called 3 times today, but I just want to make sure I catch him since he's in." Most people are generally nice because they know they can get in trouble if they are "TOO" rude. Rude gatekeepers will be just that no matter what you do, it's not personal, and they do it all day, not just to you.

To answer your question:

I will call a number/contact until I get a yes or a no from the DM. If that means I call in the morning and get a vm or the DM is not in, then I go back to the sec and ask when they will be in next. I call back then, and as many times I need to to reach them. It could be 4 times in a day if they are on the phone but in the office, or it could be once later that week. Just depends.

You never take a lead off your list. You mark it NI - the reason they are NI and unless they said DNC you call them back at a later date. Never remove leads, keep the notes on them.

Hope that helps, you can email me if you have any other questions, I've been doing cold calls/appointment setting for 6 years.

Solid advice

I get so many of my student that ask me cold calling questions like yours. The challenge is that not everyone can cold call. It takes practice and commitment. Too many people think that they will just pick up the phone, make a call, and get a sale with no effort because their product is just that good!

The challenge is that every other sales caller, telemarketer, etc.. thinks the same thing! So the person you are calling is getting floods of calls like yours.

You must stand out from the crowd if you are going to be successful with cold calling. Like Mwind076 said to make friends with the receptionist. This makes you stand out and gives you a better chance to get in touch with the decision maker.

I personally do not cold call anymore. I had done it for years in the past and out of boredom and frustration I found ways to never need to make a cold call again. I look for ways to turn them into warm leads and also get referrals. I also sell without selling which means that I get clients asking me what can I do for them without me even bringing it up.

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J R Salem

15 years ago

find ways to get to the decision maker immediately, or leave a voicemail that makes them call you back. i wont go into examples because everyone is different.

but you have to push a button to make the gatekeeper transfer you. everyone must develop their own.

for instance, if you are a web designer and you are targeting clients for mobile design:

"Yes, can i speak to the person in charge of your website."

Gatekeeper: May i give him a message?

"Well i was trying to check your website on my phone and its hard to navigate and a bit clumsy. Is it not optimized for mobile phones?"

Gatekeeper: Hang on, ill get John....he handles all our website and marketing stuff.

BAM, you are in the door and now its your job to tell john you noticed he doesnt have a mobile site and you are 'in the business' and would like to discuss getting him one if hes interested.

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Mary Wilhite

15 years ago

This organizational scheme for cold calling works well: "Include a greeting and an introduction, a reference point (something about the prospect), the benefits of your product or service, and a transition to a question or dialogue.make them feel secured
and confident.thanks.

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absolutelee

15 years ago

I don't call back. I've got too many businesses I haven't called. If I can't get through the gatekeeper for whatever reason the first time, I just let it go. It's faster that way. More calls, more leads, more sales, more money!

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S3Ware 15 years ago

Good thoughts ... thanks for the replies.
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DukeNasty

15 years ago

Originally Posted by absolutelee

I don't call back. I've got too many businesses I haven't called. If I can't get through the gatekeeper for whatever reason the first time, I just let it go. It's faster that way. More calls, more leads, more sales, more money!

Now, this is what I am talking about. No record/suspect/file is any more important than another. So, if the gatekeeper provides too much resistance, then it is on the next one.

As far as telemarketers not using scripts, I guess I still don't get it. Everyone uses scripts even when they think they aren't using scripts. Think about it, if you say something over and over again even 50 times, you have the "gist" of it in your mind and you may not need to look at the script in order to repeat it verbatim. However, you still follow that framework in your mind when you are speaking to a prospect. If someone were running an appointment setting campaign for me, they would be saying the exact same things over and over again per our service level agreement and adding local color and personality as necessary.

Everyone on my team cold calls and we say basically the exact same script over and over again and it has paid off handsomely. Other than switching the name of the caller, our opening line and positioning statements are the same. I know which rebuttal to use when a customer says a certain thing. I have a script (questions that I ask) that I use to run discovery and planning meetings because I know what type of information I need to qualify and disqualify. I know which closing to use based on what the customer says, but at the end of the day, they are all scripts that we have practiced and we OWN them.

Again, as far as the gatekeeper is concerned, you would be surprised at how saying "It's Mike, is John available" when the gatekeeper answers the phone makes a much bigger impact than saying, "Hi, this is Mike Johnson, is John Jetson available". And if I didn't know the gatekeeper's name, I simply wouldn't call them. It is too easy to get lists with the decision maker's name so why bother with lists that don't have the decision maker's name.

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Mwind076

15 years ago

Originally Posted by DukeNasty

As far as telemarketers not using scripts, I guess I still don't get it. Everyone uses scripts even when they think they aren't using scripts. Think about it, if you say something over and over again even 50 times, you have the "gist" of it in your mind and you may not need to look at the script in order to repeat it verbatim. However, you still follow that framework in your mind when you are speaking to a prospect. If someone were running an appointment setting campaign for me, they would be saying the exact same things over and over again per our service level agreement and adding local color and personality as necessary.

Everyone on my team cold calls and we say basically the exact same script over and over again and it has paid off handsomely. Other than switching the name of the caller, our opening line and positioning statements are the same. I know which rebuttal to use when a customer says a certain thing. I have a script (questions that I ask) that I use to run discovery and planning meetings because I know what type of information I need to qualify and disqualify. I know which closing to use based on what the customer says, but at the end of the day, they are all scripts that we have practiced and we OWN them.

Again, as far as the gatekeeper is concerned, you would be surprised at how saying "It's Mike, is John available" when the gatekeeper answers the phone makes a much bigger impact than saying, "Hi, this is Mike Johnson, is John Jetson available". And if I didn't know the gatekeeper's name, I simply wouldn't call them. It is too easy to get lists with the decision maker's name so why bother with lists that don't have the decision maker's name.

Agree...totally. When you are training someone new, yes, a script is helpful. Once you have it down though, it's your own, and you don't use it, because as you said "you own it." We just talk, yes, we talk about the same thing, and we usually say the same thing over and over, but scripts don't help when people ask questions. You have to know what you are talking about, and if you try to read it off of a script you're going to go south, quickly.

I'm also all for the "it's Mike, is John in today?" type thing, I am still not going with the "HIIIIIIIIIIIIIII" method. LOL. If there's no name, I still try, not every number has a gatekeeper. It's a random once in a while deal when you have someone that adamant about not letting you through.

Unfortunately for some of us TM's don't get to pick our lists. I can recommend what type of list I need all day, and still I get random zip code lists with you name it on there. If my clients won't pay for what will get them more appts, I'm stuck dealing with the crappy lists they buy. It would be nice also if they would buy newer lists. I can't tell you how recycled these lists are. We get the ones with names of people who are dead or haven't been there for 5 years...so you just have to roll with it.

I wish everyone got a new, fresh, scrubbed, complete, targeted list every time the bought one...unfortunately you have to call the list you're given!

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CaliChristian

15 years ago

What I used to do to get past the Gatekeeper is first aplogize, ask a "yes" question, and then ask for the DM.

Let's say your calling on Cosmetic dentistry practices

"I'm sorry, does Dr. Halitosis handle veneers (normally the most profitable and expensive procedure at the practice)."

"Yes he does."

Once you get that initial, "yes" it's normally easier to get somebody on a postive stream of thought and get her to pass you along the DM.

Basically, the bottom line is get a series of yes's (positive affirmation) and then get ask them to pass you along to the DM.

Another tactic is very casually ask for the DM by first name, like a good friend, or old confidant.

"Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, Bill Please!"

That normally works 2 out of 10 times if done right...I used to lengthen the Hi to about a couple seconds and then abruptly ask for the DM, "Bill Please!"

Remember cold calling is a contact sport, and like in baseball, it's a game of failure every if you fail 20x's but get one success than you've done your job.

Bottom line: Do it and do it often.

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Mwind076 15 years ago

I don't want to be a downer here, but there are 2 things of "advice" that I laughed out loud at.

DO NOT, call and say "HIIIIIIIIIIIIIII" - you will sound like an idiot. These are the same people that contend you get on "yes" patterns (which is crap and a waste of time) and that you sound like you know the person you are calling. The only reason they think this works is because of the reasonable outcome that if you call 100 numbers, 2-5 of them will say yes. It had nothing to do with your "HIIIIIIIII" or getting them to say yes to a random question. It had to do with the fact that they would have allowed you whatever you wanted because they needed your service, or you called at the right time, or they just are easy to talk to. Sounding like an idiot did not help you. I could call 100 numbers and say the exact same crappy script (I also don't do scripts, I TALK...your callers should know your promotion and talk, not read about your guarantees or pricing, and stop using the word "whereby" in scripts) people try to give out thing "Hi, this is Melissa with Plumbers anonymous and I'd like to speak to the person in charge of your website" and if I said that 100 times, I'd get 2-5. Gimmicks don't help, if it wouldn't work on YOU, why are you trying it on other people? They aren't stupid.

As for leaving VM's don't. They aren't calling you back. As I've said on another post, the ONLY reason I leave a voicemail - and I leave "hi, this is Melissa with ___ please give me a call at _____" - anyways, the only reason I do that is so I can call back in a day or 2 and say "did you get my voicemail? I didn't hear back and I'm sure you're just busy so I wanted to try to catch you for a minute." That is why I leave VM's.

You can see I have a huge bone to pick with scripts. The ones on this forum are flying around in MASS and don't work. They are all the same, long, boring, sales pitch. Would YOU listen to you talking about it for 8 sentences? NO. It's your luck with a good caller that works. A good caller needs a list, a phone and your calendar to make YOU appointments. Let me do my job (getting you an appt) and you go do yours (selling your product).
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John Durham

15 years ago

Mwind,

I have enjoyed your posts thoroughly... But this time I have to disagree, as a person who has set appointments for 20 years and has trained hundreds of others to do it successfully.

There are always "stars" in a room, who are seasoned and have been doing it for 6 years... and have developed their skills.

But when you hire a new training class of telemarketers... You want the Stars to stay away from them... because they will start trying to do what the stars do and fail miserably because they havent developed 6 years of skills.

Now "I" can be argued... But thousands of call centers and statistics and demographics DONT LIE...

And the TRUTH is that Newbies need scripts...

After they have cold called for 6 months then they know how to "talk"... but until that time they need a guideline, and hundreds of companies use scripts on THOUSANDS of telemarketers, on MILLIONS of calls per day... because they are smarter than you or me, and probably richer.

Show me a telemarketing room that doesnt train people with scripts verbatim... and I will show you a "small" telemarketing room, because winging it does not work for the average person.

I have had alot of stars in my rooms over the years who have tried to leverage me or tell me how to do my job... and I always tell them "I was placing an ad when I found you, and I havent forgotten how to do that...".

A great salesman , a great trainer does not make... and if you are saying that newbies shouldnt use scripts, and I hope I misunderstand, then you are speaking from the authority standpoint of a "salesman" not a trainer.

There is such a thing as the "peter principle" , it means that just because a person can run a jackhammer really well, doesnt mean they are going to be a good crew leader... and just because a person is a good crew leader doesnt mean he is an engineer who can design the brooklyn bridge.

I once promoted a star telemarketer, just because he bugged me everyday talkiong about "Im so good, I can train...", and he couldnt train worth a flip even though he was a good telemarketer.

I saw him sitting in a booth one day telemarketing when sales were low... and I said "What are you doing"?

He said "Im sitting here helping the team by getting on the phone..." And he looked at me as if to say "If you were a noble leader you would do the same".

That to me was a perfect eample of the "peter Principle" (Peter Principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and why I had not promoted him earlier... He was a ham... Being a leader requires caring about the outcome of the "whole".

I was tempted to fire him that day, and I told him "You think that by sitting in this booth when we are $5,000 behind, helping to raise an extra $200. in sales, thats your idea of leadership"?

Leader ship is getting out and walking that floor and motivating, and holding contest, and doing a countdown to the finish blow by blow..."Leadership" would have raised $5,000 in that very hour, by working the floor... Thats what "I" would have done. And I did... I took over the floor and brought it back up...

He thought it would rally higher moral and loyalty if he showed the other telemarketers that he could still sit in a booth and call just like them, and that he hadnt forgotten where he came from, and that when the chips were down he was going to quit being a general, and go back to the booth and show his telemarketing muscles...

Rubbish.

Here is what I told him...

"I didnt hire you to show everyone how good you can telemarket, I hired you to stay off the phone and on the floor motivating a ROOM".

I dont care if people look at me and say "If he was really a leader he would get on the phone like us...". lol I care about helping "YOU" perform, thats my job.

So I said all that to say this:

A great salesman, does not make a great trainer -neccessarily.

Yes, beginners need scripts, otherwise call centers who are more successful than you or I would not be able to get average people to get results... Only stellar sales people.

If you fashion your training to only work for the stellar ones, then your business is people dependent.

Or if you work alone its "mood" dependent.

You dont want that... you want to be "systems" dependent. And if you dont have a process, you dont have a system that you can work predictably, and only a rare few will be able to succeed.

So I love your posts, but I disagree here.

Star telemarketers are great who can talk off the cuff, but you cant build an organization on them.

Smart rooms, who are actually able to quantify predicatable results based on repetitive actions, use scripts.

Or else one day you are doing good and the next bad... and there is NO WAY to quantiify the reasons for why you did good or bad.

I use to hire 100 people per year... If I only depended on seasoned sales pro who could work without a script...I would have only hired and handful if that...and they would have quit within 90 days and went to work for themselves like you are.

The teachings we spread around here are for AVERAGE people to have a roadmap to success to go by...

The successful "teacher" is different than the successful sales person, and they assume nothing... You cant assume the people you are teaching all have the same seasoned experience that you do and can pull things off in the way you do... You have to give them a simple proven system...that YES, works by numbers... Are we going to argue the law of numbers...

Thats how people make their first sales...then 6 years later they can be like yourself.

But, in my mind, wether you dial 100 numbers to get 2 or 3 appointments and that takes two hours... and you got them all by a system... at the end of the day its still 2 or 3 potential sales... So to a call center manager, he doesnt care if you are so talented you can stand on your head and do tricks while you get three sales... or if you are a quiet one who just sits there quietly reading the script and getting three sales... He actually likes the other one better, because he can quantify what they did... and it confirms to him that his system works.

Again, a great salesman, a great leader is not, necessarily.

You can read about the Peter principle here: Peter Principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In closing, you are very passionate about your position, and telling others that scripts are for losers, basically makes you look like a great Telemarketer... But its not helping others, or at least the AVERAGE person...to succeed.

I repsect your 6 years of appointment setting... But I respect my 20 years of experience as both a champion telemarketer, and a person who has trained masses even more. Which is not arrogant, because we all trust our own experience the most. Perhaps you may have forgotten your experience of being a newby TM.

If you were in my call center making these statements... I would call you aside and say " simmer down your ego... You are great but these people need scripts and you are hurting them by discouraging that. You are a good salesman, but a bad example for my room and the people who are trying to learn, they arent ready to abandon their script yet... they need it. And I need it, to be able to control my numbers...

Lots of hotshots, and many props to them. I respect great telemarketers... but the quality that makes you an aggressive telemarketer, may be the exact quality that makes you a poor trainer.

Nuff said.

Ps. I say this often a reminder, a gentle one, as I know you are a LION inside: " An average man can afford to see the world only through his own eyes... but a KING, must have a much broader perspective".

Peace.

Originally Posted by CaliChristian

What I used to do to get past the Gatekeeper is first aplogize, ask a "yes" question, and then ask for the DM.

Let's say your calling on Cosmetic dentistry practices

"I'm sorry, does Dr. Halitosis handle veneers (normally the most profitable and expensive procedure at the practice)."

"Yes he does."

Once you get that initial, "yes" it's normally easier to get somebody on a postive stream of thought and get her to pass you along the DM.

Basically, the bottom line is get a series of yes's (positive affirmation) and then get ask them to pass you along to the DM.

Another tactic is very casually ask for the DM by first name, like a good friend, or old confidant.

"Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, Bill Please!"

That normally works 2 out of 10 times if done right...I used to lengthen the Hi to about a couple seconds and then abruptly ask for the DM, "Bill Please!"

Remember cold calling is a contact sport, and like in baseball, it's a game of failure every if you fail 20x's but get one success than you've done your job.

Bottom line: Do it and do it often.

There are 100 years of statistics to back you up that "yes" questions, and leading a person to the logical conclusion systematically is the best most sure way to get to a sale.

So You have many millionaires backing you on this... However the issue, or misunderstanding most have is this "That doesnt guarantee a sale on each call... but its (hear me) THE WAY TO GET TO THE ONES THAT TURN INTO SALES".

The more proven guidlines you follow, the more success you will have in 100 calls.

Believe it or not, being 'assumptive" is actually uncomfortable for alot of TM's but its proven time and time again to be effective... "Hey is Bill around"? Acting like you know him or he should know you... is a tactic that can increase your conversions.

You also have to remember that just because something wont work on the exceptions...that doesnt mean it wont work with the masses. Narrow minded marketers believe that just because they dont like something that everyone else wont either.... I like Reboks personally, but 90 percent of the world out there likes Nike.... I cant afford to lose 90% of the market by being narrow minded and thinking that what doesnt work for me also doesnt work for the rest of the world. I would be smart to understand the mindset of the "majority".

The majority would say they dont respond to assumptive greetings any better, but after having seen millions of calls go by on dialers... I have to tell you, the majority is decieving themselves, because they "DO" respond to assumptive openiongs and closes better, and its proven.

Even though if you were to explain how it works to them they would say your way of doing it is "stupid".

Trust the numbers and the statistics... People lie, even to themselves unintentionally, but numbers DONT LIE.

Moving on...

"Im with___________ you may have heard of us"... Is another, it makes the prospect think that if they havent heard of you, then something is wrong because they should have by now, even though you never said that. This all happpens subconsciously.

I once did a week long test with myself... and I wrote down the difference between what I was doing during slow times of the day and what I was doing during times of the day when I was racking up sales like crazy.

Interestingly, one of the most significant things that made a difference was when I started saying "Hi could I speak to Bill Baily please"?

I would constantly fall back into that habit if I didnt watch it...

And I noticed that those were when sales slowed down, and when I forced my self back into being assumpitve "Hi Is Bill around", or "Hey, I need to get Bill on the line please"...

My sales started going back up.

So acting like you know a person, or acting like they should know you...is being assumptive, and as stupid as it sounds, its statistically proven to work better. Most of the time if someone says that to me on the phone Im thinking "Where do I know you from"?

and the fact that I cant remember obliges me for a moment... and if you are good, that moment is just enough to get in and sell me your pitch...

However when someone says "Can I speak to a John Durham Please"... and they arent assumptive, they are coming off like someone who has nothing to do with my business..., my friends call me by my first name only... and they may not have made the sale anyway, but with that opening, they wont even be able to "pitch" me.

You may not get a sale on every call, but the more proven techniques you use, the more sales you WILL get.

I have seen it as an individual, and I have watched the effect it has on entire rooms day in and day out for hundreds of days on end...

There is a craft to telemarketing. Some have the 'gift of gab" and that just works for them naturally... But multi million dollar companies arent built on those people... They are built on systems and a 'craft" of telemarketing that has been refined over many years.

Most who succeed naturally , are forgetting that its second nature to them to use ALL of these techniques... however easily now...like a second instinct... without need for forethought...they mix and match these techniques at will... and they dont remember when all these things were drilled into them by a trainer systematically.

You have to LEARN them first.

In answer to the OP...

If you have an abundance of leads its best just to keep moving forward and dont call back until your leads are out and you have to go back through the list.

One time I put together a list of 20,000 "No Answers" and tried to run them at different times of the day...and there was a trend. With some exceptions... Most people who dont answer , just "dont answer" and its a habit with them.

Most people who are hard to get ahold of are just "hard to get ahold of".

Now... Should you call back a person 10 times who has fallen into the "hard to get ahold of category"...when you could call ten fresh numbers and actually "get through" to someone?

Which makes more sense?

Until you have reason to believe there is interest , I would move on and burn the numbers up, its more efficient than chasing "no answer people".

There are exceptions but thats the rule.

BTW, the "No answer list" was the worst list I ever ran and produced terrible results.

So you ecstrapolate that thought process and tell me if the answer doesnt become cleasr to you.

If you have limited leads though then you have to make everyone count. Still dont go back through the no answers until you have been through your whole list. If I had no other leads left, I would work the no answers like a dog. If you have plenty of material to call...Move forward and dont give them energy.

You have a higher probability of reaching a live prospect and doing a "pitch" if you dial 10 fresh numbers as opposed to 10 no answers. It all comes down to how many "pitches" you make, not dials, in the end. If you can pitch 15 people out of 100 and you have a 20% closing ratio then you are gold at getting three sales or appointmeents out of 100 calls.

Systems, and quanitfiable actions, and numbers.... "MATTER".

I guess I have posted enough here for the day.

Hope it helps,

-John

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Mwind076

15 years ago

John,

I agree with you, as I usually do, however I was speaking to people that are "used to calling" not newbies. The OP here asked a question about reaching DM's, and I myself got off track and was answering other people.

Newbies DO need guidance. The people I was referring to in here and responding to were portraying themselves as some that have been calling for a while.

With that said, I stand by my advice, and we don't always have to agree.

As we've said on many other occasions, what works for one may not work for another. I always do the "would I buy this" "would I listen to this" test when calling. If I'm not going to buy it from me, or listen to me, why should I expect anyone else to? If someone called me and said "HIIIIIIIIIIIII" I'd tell them to move on, before even listening. I'm not 13 and don't need to be patronized. As for the "yes" thing. Again, I stand by what I said. If you call me and say "is your name Melissa? Are you a female? Are you sitting at your desk?" I'll say yes...if you ask me if I want to purchase front page of whatever SEO you're selling, I'll say no. Doesn't matter that I said yes before. If I don't need it, I'm not saying yes. Don't waste time with BS, get to the point, get the appointment/sale, and get on to the next number.

This thread was not in reference to call centers and having newbies present and having to train and what they need and tactics to get them up to par, it was a discussion about how to get to DM's.

"There is a craft to telemarketing. Some have the 'gift of gab" and that just works for them naturally... But multi million dollar companies arent built on those people... They are built on systems and a 'craft" of telemarketing that has been refined over many years."

As you stated, there is a craft, and some of us are naturals, no gimmicks needed. Those companies you mention would benefit better from using people that know what they are doing or allowing them to train and consult. I'm always amazed at the theories of cold calling people come to us with. It just shows the lack of knowledge about TM out there. This forum is no exception and I'm thrilled to have met and consulted with those in here.

No, every system doesn't work for everyone every time. However, it will lead you to what DOES work.

Thanks
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John Durham

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mwind076

John,

I agree with you, as I usually do, however I was speaking to people that are "used to calling" not newbies. The OP here asked a question about reaching DM's, and I myself got off track and was answering other people.

Newbies DO need guidance. The people I was referring to in here and responding to were portraying themselves as some that have been calling for a while.

With that said, I stand by my advice, and we don't always have to agree.

As we've said on many other occasions, what works for one may not work for another. I always do the "would I buy this" "would I listen to this" test when calling. If I'm not going to buy it from me, or listen to me, why should I expect anyone else to? If someone called me and said "HIIIIIIIIIIIII" I'd tell them to move on, before even listening. I'm not 13 and don't need to be patronized. As for the "yes" thing. Again, I stand by what I said. If you call me and say "is your name Melissa? Are you a female? Are you sitting at your desk?" I'll say yes...if you ask me if I want to purchase front page of whatever SEO you're selling, I'll say no. Doesn't matter that I said yes before. If I don't need it, I'm not saying yes. Don't waste time with BS, get to the point, get the appointment/sale, and get on to the next number.

This thread was not in reference to call centers and having newbies present and having to train and what they need and tactics to get them up to par, it was a discussion about how to get to DM's.

"There is a craft to telemarketing. Some have the 'gift of gab" and that just works for them naturally... But multi million dollar companies arent built on those people... They are built on systems and a 'craft" of telemarketing that has been refined over many years."

As you stated, there is a craft, and some of us are naturals, no gimmicks needed. Those companies you mention would benefit better from using people that know what they are doing or allowing them to train and consult. I'm always amazed at the theories of cold calling people come to us with. It just shows the lack of knowledge about TM out there. This forum is no exception and I'm thrilled to have met and consulted with those in here.

No, every system doesn't work for everyone every time. However, it will lead you to what DOES work.

You are a natural... No doubt. And I respect that we can disagree and still maintain respect. I would add again that just because I dont like ice cream...that doesnt mean 90% of the world doesnt. But... that could be a long post in itself.

I just felt like talking some shop today! Lol

Im out.

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Mwind076

15 years ago

Originally Posted by John Durham

You are a natural... No doubt. And I respect that we can disagree and still maintain respect. I would add again that just because I dont like ice cream...that doesnt mean 90% of the world doesnt. But... that could be a long post in itself.

I just felt like talking some shop today! Lol

Im out.

I get it, totally! I thought "wow, he must be on a warpath today" when I saw how long your post was! I do agree, all training methods have their place. We were talking as "seasoned" people trying to get to DM's.

I'm also out, we got 2 new contacts, so I don't have much rebuttal time today

Thanks

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Caper224

15 years ago

Originally Posted by baib21

How long do you wait before calling back when you don't get through to the decision maker?

Also, how many times will you call (without being told that they are flat-out not interested) before taking a lead off your list?

(Ok, I lied ... it's actually two questions

)

Answer to question 1: If I called in the morning I'd call back same day in evening. If I called that evening I'd call back next day in the morning.

Question 2: 3 calls

Originally Posted by John Durham

Mwind,

I have enjoyed your posts thoroughly... But this time I have to disagree, as a person who has set appointments for 20 years and has trained hundreds of others to do it successfully.

There are always "stars" in a room, who are seasoned and have been doing it for 6 years... and have developed their skills.

But when you hire a new training class of telemarketers... You want the Stars to stay away from them... because they will start trying to do what the stars do and fail miserably because they havent developed 6 years of skills.

Now "I" can be argued... But thousands of call centers and statistics and demographics DONT LIE...

And the TRUTH is that Newbies need scripts...

After they have cold called for 6 months then they know how to "talk"... but until that time they need a guideline, and hundreds of companies use scripts on THOUSANDS of telemarketers, on MILLIONS of calls per day... because they are smarter than you or me, and probably richer.

Show me a telemarketing room that doesnt train people with scripts verbatim... and I will show you a "small" telemarketing room, because winging it does not work for the average person.

I have had alot of stars in my rooms over the years who have tried to leverage me or tell me how to do my job... and I always tell them "I was placing an ad when I found you, and I havent forgotten how to do that...".

A great salesman , a great trainer does not make... and if you are saying that newbies shouldnt use scripts, and I hope I misunderstand, then you are speaking from the authority standpoint of a "salesman" not a trainer.

There is such a thing as the "peter principle" , it means that just because a person can run a jackhammer really well, doesnt mean they are going to be a good crew leader... and just because a person is a good crew leader doesnt mean he is an engineer who can design the brooklyn bridge.

I once promoted a star telemarketer, just because he bugged me everyday talkiong about "Im so good, I can train...", and he couldnt train worth a flip even though he was a good telemarketer.

I saw him sitting in a booth one day telemarketing when sales were low... and I said "What are you doing"?

He said "Im sitting here helping the team by getting on the phone..." And he looked at me as if to say "If you were a noble leader you would do the same".

That to me was a perfect eample of the "peter Principle" (Peter Principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and why I had not promoted him earlier... He was a ham... Being a leader requires caring about the outcome of the "whole".

I was tempted to fire him that day, and I told him "You think that by sitting in this booth when we are $5,000 behind, helping to raise an extra $200. in sales, thats your idea of leadership"?

Leader ship is getting out and walking that floor and motivating, and holding contest, and doing a countdown to the finish blow by blow..."Leadership" would have raised $5,000 in that very hour, by working the floor... Thats what "I" would have done. And I did... I took over the floor and brought it back up...

He thought it would rally higher moral and loyalty if he showed the other telemarketers that he could still sit in a booth and call just like them, and that he hadnt forgotten where he came from, and that when the chips were down he was going to quit being a general, and go back to the booth and show his telemarketing muscles...

Rubbish.

Here is what I told him...

"I didnt hire you to show everyone how good you can telemarket, I hired you to stay off the phone and on the floor motivating a ROOM".

I dont care if people look at me and say "If he was really a leader he would get on the phone like us...". lol I care about helping "YOU" perform, thats my job.

So I said all that to say this:

A great salesman, does not make a great trainer -neccessarily.

Yes, beginners need scripts, otherwise call centers who are more successful than you or I would not be able to get average people to get results... Only stellar sales people.

If you fashion your training to only work for the stellar ones, then your business is people dependent.

Or if you work alone its "mood" dependent.

You dont want that... you want to be "systems" dependent. And if you dont have a process, you dont have a system that you can work predictably, and only a rare few will be able to succeed.

So I love your posts, but I disagree here.

Star telemarketers are great who can talk off the cuff, but you cant build an organization on them.

Smart rooms, who are actually able to quantify predicatable results based on repetitive actions, use scripts.

Or else one day you are doing good and the next bad... and there is NO WAY to quantiify the reasons for why you did good or bad.

I use to hire 100 people per year... If I only depended on seasoned sales pro who could work without a script...I would have only hired and handful if that...and they would have quit within 90 days and went to work for themselves like you are.

The teachings we spread around here are for AVERAGE people to have a roadmap to success to go by...

The successful "teacher" is different than the successful sales person, and they assume nothing... You cant assume the people you are teaching all have the same seasoned experience that you do and can pull things off in the way you do... You have to give them a simple proven system...that YES, works by numbers... Are we going to argue the law of numbers...

Thats how people make their first sales...then 6 years later they can be like yourself.

But, in my mind, wether you dial 100 numbers to get 2 or 3 appointments and that takes two hours... and you got them all by a system... at the end of the day its still 2 or 3 potential sales... So to a call center manager, he doesnt care if you are so talented you can stand on your head and do tricks while you get three sales... or if you are a quiet one who just sits there quietly reading the script and getting three sales... He actually likes the other one better, because he can quantify what they did... and it confirms to him that his system works.

Again, a great salesman, a great leader is not, necessarily.

You can read about the Peter principle here: Peter Principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In closing, you are very passionate about your position, and telling others that scripts are for losers, basically makes you look like a great Telemarketer... But its not helping others, or at least the AVERAGE person...to succeed.

I repsect your 6 years of appointment setting... But I respect my 20 years of experience as both a champion telemarketer, and a person who has trained masses even more. Which is not arrogant, because we all trust our own experience the most. Perhaps you may have forgotten your experience of being a newby TM.

If you were in my call center making these statements... I would call you aside and say " simmer down your ego... You are great but these people need scripts and you are hurting them by discouraging that. You are a good salesman, but a bad example for my room and the people who are trying to learn, they arent ready to abandon their script yet... they need it. And I need it, to be able to control my numbers...

Lots of hotshots, and many props to them. I respect great telemarketers... but the quality that makes you an aggressive telemarketer, may be the exact quality that makes you a poor trainer.

Nuff said.

Ps. I say this often a reminder, a gentle one, as I know you are a LION inside: " An average man can afford to see the world only through his own eyes... but a KING, must have a much broader perspective".

Peace.

There are 100 years of statistics to back you up that "yes" questions, and leading a person to the logical conclusion systematically is the best most sure way to get to a sale.

So You have many millionaires backing you on this... However the issue, or misunderstanding most have is this "That doesnt guarantee a sale on each call... but its (hear me) THE WAY TO GET TO THE ONES THAT TURN INTO SALES".

The more proven guidlines you follow, the more success you will have in 100 calls.

Believe it or not, being 'assumptive" is actually uncomfortable for alot of TM's but its proven time and time again to be effective... "Hey is Bill around"? Acting like you know him or he should know you... is a tactic that can increase your conversions.

You also have to remember that just because something wont work on the exceptions...that doesnt mean it wont work with the masses. Narrow minded marketers believe that just because they dont like something that everyone else wont either.... I like Reboks personally, but 90 percent of the world out there likes Nike.... I cant afford to lose 90% of the market by being narrow minded and thinking that what doesnt work for me also doesnt work for the rest of the world. I would be smart to understand the mindset of the "majority".

The majority would say they dont respond to assumptive greetings any better, but after having seen millions of calls go by on dialers... I have to tell you, the majority is decieving themselves, because they "DO" respond to assumptive openiongs and closes better, and its proven.

Even though if you were to explain how it works to them they would say your way of doing it is "stupid".

Trust the numbers and the statistics... People lie, even to themselves unintentionally, but numbers DONT LIE.

Moving on...

"Im with___________ you may have heard of us"... Is another, it makes the prospect think that if they havent heard of you, then something is wrong because they should have by now, even though you never said that. This all happpens subconsciously.

I once did a week long test with myself... and I wrote down the difference between what I was doing during slow times of the day and what I was doing during times of the day when I was racking up sales like crazy.

Interestingly, one of the most significant things that made a difference was when I started saying "Hi could I speak to Bill Baily please"?

I would constantly fall back into that habit if I didnt watch it...

And I noticed that those were when sales slowed down, and when I forced my self back into being assumpitve "Hi Is Bill around", or "Hey, I need to get Bill on the line please"...

My sales started going back up.

So acting like you know a person, or acting like they should know you...is being assumptive, and as stupid as it sounds, its statistically proven to work better. Most of the time if someone says that to me on the phone Im thinking "Where do I know you from"?

and the fact that I cant remember obliges me for a moment... and if you are good, that moment is just enough to get in and sell me your pitch...

However when someone says "Can I speak to a John Durham Please"... and they arent assumptive, they are coming off like someone who has nothing to do with my business..., my friends call me by my first name only... and they may not have made the sale anyway, but with that opening, they wont even be able to "pitch" me.

You may not get a sale on every call, but the more proven techniques you use, the more sales you WILL get.

I have seen it as an individual, and I have watched the effect it has on entire rooms day in and day out for hundreds of days on end...

There is a craft to telemarketing. Some have the 'gift of gab" and that just works for them naturally... But multi million dollar companies arent built on those people... They are built on systems and a 'craft" of telemarketing that has been refined over many years.

Most who succeed naturally , are forgetting that its second nature to them to use ALL of these techniques... however easily now...like a second instinct... without need for forethought...they mix and match these techniques at will... and they dont remember when all these things were drilled into them by a trainer systematically.

You have to LEARN them first.

In answer to the OP...

If you have an abundance of leads its best just to keep moving forward and dont call back until your leads are out and you have to go back through the list.

One time I put together a list of 20,000 "No Answers" and tried to run them at different times of the day...and there was a trend. With some exceptions... Most people who dont answer , just "dont answer" and its a habit with them.

Most people who are hard to get ahold of are just "hard to get ahold of".

Now... Should you call back a person 10 times who has fallen into the "hard to get ahold of category"...when you could call ten fresh numbers and actually "get through" to someone?

Which makes more sense?

Until you have reason to believe there is interest , I would move on and burn the numbers up, its more efficient than chasing "no answer people".

There are exceptions but thats the rule.

BTW, the "No answer list" was the worst list I ever ran and produced terrible results.

So you ecstrapolate that thought process and tell me if the answer doesnt become cleasr to you.

If you have limited leads though then you have to make everyone count. Still dont go back through the no answers until you have been through your whole list. If I had no other leads left, I would work the no answers like a dog. If you have plenty of material to call...Move forward and dont give them energy.

You have a higher probability of reaching a live prospect and doing a "pitch" if you dial 10 fresh numbers as opposed to 10 no answers. It all comes down to how many "pitches" you make, not dials, in the end. If you can pitch 15 people out of 100 and you have a 20% closing ratio then you are gold at getting three sales or appointmeents out of 100 calls.

Systems, and quanitfiable actions, and numbers.... "MATTER".

I guess I have posted enough here for the day.

Hope it helps,

-John

Wow, lol now thats typing! anyways, I disagree. Coming from a sales background as a telemarketer and as a sales trainer with successful sales floors attached to my resume. I'd say "product knowledge" is the most important aspect of cold calling. I only script my newbies intro's then the rest of their printed script would simply have bullet points an "go-to" rebuttals. A lot of sales offices throw their trainees on the phone and basically its sink or swim. I teach through product knowledge and conversational exercises. My newbies can carry on a natural conversation about the product before they see the phone.
Then, I teach them to recognize their inner natural salesman. Because, everyone has sold something to someone in one way or another. Arm yourself or your team with superior conversational product knowledge, a greater sense of their inner salesman, and some "go-to" rebuttals. And, I'll put money on it that they'll blow those scripted, monotone, robotic floors out the water 7 days a week, 365.

One thing I hate about script reliance is its so easily detectable and shakeable.

To trip up a scripted sales person is child's play, example:

Scripted caller: Hi is Caper around?

Me: Yes, speaking and who am I speaking with?

Scripted caller: Hi, I'm Lana from blah industries and...

Me: Hi, Lana how are you?

Scripted caller: uh, ummm(awkward pause) oh I'm fine and you?

Me: I'm great, how can I help you?

Scripted caller: ok, (awkward pause to gather their self ) uh,I'm calling from blah industries and we were calling to see if you needed help with whatever?

Me: No, not really

scripted caller: well, oh(pause again) but don't you see the value in so an so?

Me: Nope

^^^^Scripted callers get hung up on far more than the conversational telemarketer that opens the phone call the way people naturally open a phone call. If you properly prepare your newbies it won't be hard for them to open a phone call naturally with a guideline(not a script) for assistance. Your call time will sky rocket up, your gatekeeper blockage will go way down, and most importantly you'll see it in your closing ratio and your bottom line.

And, to conclude this I'm part of the new school of sales people. I'm a generation x-er. So, John's viewpoint is still widely accepted(no offense john) by the elder generation. Is his method still effective? Yes, will it continue to be? No. Its dated, it doesn't fit in with the new age. Call centers will always have a place in sales, as will cold calling but the tactics have to grow. Its time for Brian tracy version 5.0., Zig Zigler Ipad edition, Neil rackman twitter selling. People's attention spans aren't what they use to be. If your calling baby boomers John's method is still the creme da la creme. If your pushing annuities to a 55 yr old take John's way an go get'em. that's how they're accustom to being sold. But, today's generation is a new breed an require new tactics to hold their attention because they don't have to extend their arm an slam it down, they just press end call and your done. But, I'm going on a rant here. Long story short, stop blatantly, boringly, rigidly selling, and start conversating to a close.

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John Durham

15 years ago

[DELETED]

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jimbo13 15 years ago

In one of the Arthur Conan Doyle books, Sherlock Holmes says:

'While individuals may be insoluble puzzles, in aggregate they become mathematical certainties.'

What he means by this is that whilst I may not be able to predict what you as an individual may do, I can predict what a group of individuals will do.

This is what a script does.

What results will one achieve from an individual call?, who knows, but what will be achieved from 100 calls can be predicted and scientifically worked on.

The above quotation isn't used now. We simply say 'The Law of Averages' easier to remember.

Every generation is 'new' by default yet Holmes Maxim remains true. If we were to come back in 100 years it would still hold true.

Human behaviour hasn't really changed and that is why large companies will always do as John has written.

Dan
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Caper224

15 years ago

Originally Posted by John Durham

@ Caper...

Great so you do use a script and rebuttals, but you also give product knowledge.

How do you quantify what actions work for your salespeople and which dont?

Is it just a free for all?

How many telemarketers do you have, and can you project their numbers next week?

Why do thousands of million dollar companies use scripts?

Is it because they arent as smart as you?

Just asking... not cocky... But there are exceptions and there are rules.

Which one is the rule , made by companies with demographics and statistics backing their processes that took hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop, and have stood the test of time? Or a random telemarketing maverick room that gets results without scripts?

Product knowledge is a given, and its something you gain plenty of along the way... I figure EVERYONE tries to impart product knowledge to their people.

Im not saying dont educate telemarketers about your product... Im saying that if you dont teach them a systematic way of getting to the close...they never get there.

So Im sure you have systemized a way of getting to the close right, that they follow?

If you dont know where you are trying to go you can end up anywhere...and if you dont know what your telemarketers are saying, you cant make distinctions as to what is working and whats not, because you have no control over the variables.

In short: Why do much bigger and more established companies disagree with your theory of not using a script?

I can only assume its because you have discovered something in your experience that trumps their years of proven backing for doing things the way they do.

You assume that just because one teaches a script, that they dont teach how to find your "natural salesman"... thats a wrong assumption.

As far as monotone robots... Thats how all telemarketers sound at first until the get better... I would like to see you put an average person on the phone even with days of training and not have them sound that way their first couple of hours...

lastly...

Can you train an AMRY to produce consitently like that?

What I am talking about are the masses of avwerage individuals, not the exceptions who can get a little product knowledge and strike up a conversation naturally... Those are the exceptions not the rules... and what has to be realized is that this forum is made of of "rules" primarily, not exceptions.

So I tend to teach the "rules".

Hell, Im an exception myself... But I know that its few and far between to hire a guy like me... So you in order to have any large scale success need to train the "rules", and I dont care who you are, there are some avergae people that dont have that natural salesman in them...But if you give them a "robotic" system, they can perform just as well as any natural.

I have been sized up by alot of people in my time, but I have never been backed down... Using a system is just as effective... Maybe not as good for your "ego".

And yes I can type like mad... Its easy when you are drawing from life experience.

Also as far as generation xers go....

Call it what you want. The rules didnt change in one generation... Just ask 100 warrior forum newbies that couldnt get a sale to save their life in the last year, who finally started getting somwhere when someone taught them "old school".

Fads change, principles never do. When you fail at everything else, go back to the telemarketing prionciples that have outlasted generation x... or y or z... whatever.

Generation x people are simply reinventing the wheel... You are USING techniques, that you give different labels to, and say "we dont use those techniques anymore".

I will tell you what, I have never seen more newbies succeed as I did when they stopped listening to generation x teachers and started rolling up their sleeves and cold calling.

Whoa, calm down there buddy.

Now, who said I was a maverick? And, my experience is based of one sales office? and, I was unaware of the successes of the model you described?

I never downplayed its history, I simply stated it has a shaky future. Change is guaranteed. Look at the music industry they had a clear cut blueprint for how to manufacture mega stars and extract millions from consumers but boy has business changed for them.

And, it will change for the sales industry as well. People develop resistance after a while.

Now, if you want to discuss my personal merits I won't divulge that info on the forum but I'm available to IM chat. But, a basic overview. My sales abilities, knowledge, and applications were all developed in fortune 500 and 1000 commericial companies. The training blueprint I am speaking on is not of my own invention. I wish it was lol(ego aside).

I never said your method didn't work, but are you saying its impossible for their to be a better one out there? Or is that not good for your ego?

As far as statistics, who doesn't use predictive dialers, recorded phone calls, testing, and monitoring at the higher level of the cold calling world? That's easy, The commercial companies that I worked for(that if I told you who you'd instantly know)through testing deemed that scripted calls just weren't as effective as they were ten years ago.

I've sat in on speaking events through sellingpower of Gerhard Gschwandtner sharing the same sentiment. Discussing how structured guidelines out-perform scripts.

Now, I as well as my mentors train our newbies and have a full system that we put them through but the difference is ours doesn't lead to them being reliant upon a piece paper thumb tacked to the wall of their cubicle.

It enables them to be more interactive, more engaging, and almost eliminates rebuttals because it enables them to get right to probing and identifying the prospects pain. Which I'm sure a sales vet such as yourself knows the power of probing to closing. I'm sure you know the power of likeability, and having the prospect feel a connection over that phone line. Now, we defer on the principle you stated about their being rules an exceptions. With the right training according to several circles(not just me) that guided talking points work better than structured scripts, and it can be trained to most. Now, maybe your bar is lower as we don't accept everybody, sales isn't for everybody, so if your point is coming from the perspective of training people with no sales skills to begin with, then I totally agree. But, Funny thing is most people end up developing their on signature openings, and closings unique to them so they technically still end up being scripted and repetitive but its a lively undetectable repetitive.

Anyways, I'm not trying to get into a contest of one-upmanship, I was just simply stating my opinion. I don't know if you took this as me calling you incompetent or obsolete or were offended in anyway because that certainly was not my intention. I simply subscribe to the notion to always be improving while selling. I respect you as salesman as I've purchased both your telemarketing wso's, I absolutely love the bower method and I've actually implemented it and I've already made good on that investment. Congrats on producing success for all of those newbies, and more power to you and all your business success.

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John Durham

15 years ago

Just because I lose my calm, and give a "rise"... doesnt make your point any more correct.

If you can teach a room full of 100 people to perform to a "quota" without tacking up a script on their wall, you will be the first I have seen.

You make alot of assumptions.

The main one being that, just because people are taught by smart call center owners to read a script, that must mean they dont teach them anything else".

Its called pigeon holing.

You speak as if the entire offline world is on the internet, and thats not true, only 2% of the money made in this world is transacted online, it doesnt matter what generation you are from, telemarketing exceptions are a long way from becoming rules.

The rules of successful telemarketing arent going to change anytime soon, even if they change in your little world, and you are making your own new rules which is great.

You are still speaking to the exception and not the rule.

As to wondering if I was obsolete, it would take alot bigger person to make me wonder that.

I dont think a person could hear you reference me as an "elder" who does things the "old way" and isnt in line with the "new age salespeople", and take it any other way.

So I dont think I mistook your meaning at all.

I think you were implying exactly what I am implying that you implied.

And you know it.

Originally Posted by jimbo13

In one of the Arthur Conan Doyle books, Sherlock Holmes says:

'While individuals may be insoluble puzzles, in aggregate they become mathematical certainties.'

What he means by this is that whilst I may not be able to predict what you as an individual may do, I can predict what a group of individuals will do.

This is what a script does.

What results will one achieve from an individual call?, who knows, but what will be achieved from 100 calls can be predicted and scientifically worked on.

The above quotation isn't used now. We simply say 'The Law of Averages' easier to remember.

Every generation is 'new' by default yet Holmes Maxim remains true. If we were to come back in 100 years it would still hold true.

Human behaviour hasn't really changed and that is why large companies will always do as John has written.

Dan

Exactly.

Thanks
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Caper224

15 years ago

Okay I have to respond to this line by line to address you entirely...

Originally Posted by John Durham

Just because I lose my calm, and give a "rise"... doesnt make your point any more correct.

^^^No it doesn't, put it does speak volumes about your character

If you can teach a room full of 100 people to perform to a "quota" without tacking up a script on their wall, you will be the first I have seen.

^^^I can say without a wavering doubt that as one man you have not seen it all. I'm sure there are millions of things that would be the first that you have seen.

You make alot of assumptions.

The main one being that, just because people are taught by smart call center owners to read a script, that must mean they dont teach them anything else".

Its called pigeon holing.

^^^I didn't speak about "smart(sarcasm John, really?) call center owners" I spoke about "the method John Durham teaches and others who share in the same teachings and beliefs." As I stated I have your telemarketing wso's and have been to your telemarketing forum that's responsible for the success of 100s of newbies. I based my responses off of the teachings and scripts presented in your work. Being that is your product it would be considered a representation of how you teach others to sell and how you yourself have sold. So, if I have actual documentation of your sales approach its not an assumption its an educated opinion.

You speak as if the entire offline world is on the internet, and thats not true, only 2% of the money made in this world is transacted online, it doesnt matter what generation you are from, telemarketing exceptions are a long way from becoming rules.

^^^I am responding according to where I am posting. This is the offline marketng discussion section of the warriorforum. Therefore, my responses are relative to that. As to that's what this section was designed for.
Now, granted the person who originally started this thread didn't specify what type of business they were cold calling for, but its a safe "assumption" to respond from a offline consulting standpoint considering where its being discussed.

The rules of successful telemarketing arent going to change anytime soon, even if they change in your little world, and you are making your own new rules which is great.

You are still speaking to the exception and not the rule.

^^^my "little world?" ah! there goes that sarcasm again...another strong depiction of character.
I am not making new rules, these rules weren't created by me. I learned them working for a commercial call center with a sales floor of 250 people doing cold calling. Selling a non-essential product to residential consumers(completely offline). I came into the company cold, 18 yrs old never having sold a thing in life. Not knowing any selling principles and this is what I was taught from day one and I excelled as did many of my peers. I came into the company when it had been using this new way of selling for only a year and its been having sweeping success for 8 years with this style of selling. And, I wouldn't be surprised(if you live in the states) if you not only owned their product but was sold on it by a rep using this style. This company has documented statistics showing them outperforming the traditional scripted selling style. I was so good at it I naturally was promoted to regional trainer an was part of a team that trained and over saw 3 equally sized sales floors.

As to wondering if I was obsolete, it would take alot bigger person to make me wonder that.

^^^In response to this, that was an assumption on my part(ya got me)...I stated other possible emotions you could have been experiencing to try to spread it around an see if I hit the correct one by default. I don't know what your personal definition of a big person is or what makes you wonder what. Those are your personal thoughts and have nothing to do with me.

Its called maturity.

I dont think a person could hear you reference me as an "elder" who does things the "old way" and isnt in line with the "new age salespeople", and take it any other way.

^^^I beg to differ, their are billions of people that have never heard of John Durham. Who's to say they wouldn't take my words at face value?

So I dont think I mistook your meaning at all.

^^^Well, that's what you think but there's no way for you to verify intent.

I think you were implying exactly what I am implying that you implied.

And you know it.

^^^It appears that you took offense to me saying your selling style was dated, it appears that way because you disregarded most of what I said and defensively focused on that aspect, which was from my first post at that. I don't know you well enough, hell I don't know you at all...so how can I possibly say anything about you as a person. I said the method you posted in today's thread was dated. In conjuction with the fact that it mirrors what you teach in your telemarketing products, it gave me enough information about your stance on telemarketing to state my opinion based on my experiences. Which even if you believe it will continue to work if you think about it objectively that tried & true style of selling has been around so long how could it not be dated? Its unquestionably old school because it certainly isn't new.

In closing, I restate what i said in my previous posts closing. Which is my intent was not to offend, that method you are promoting is not only promoted by you. I was speaking about the method as a whole. In my opinion the perfect analogy for our stances are. If you take our two view points in place them in the education realm as it stands today. My method is charter schools and yours is the current public school system. Charter Schools under close examination is clearly superior but it is not the accepted norm and it goes against everything the accepted norm stands for so it is only championed in small circles and off the record conversations. The huge accepted public school system isn't considered broke so no one thinks twice about considering fixing it. Nor do they consider or take kindly to any opposition of it.

Exactly.

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IMguy123 15 years ago

Hmmm, This thread almost seems like the duel of the TM's
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Seleyna

15 years ago

I have high respect for cold callers

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S3Ware

15 years ago

Ok, let's settle this thing once and for all ...

How about I give each of you a list of 500 businesses to call and we'll see who can set more appointments for me.

(You gotta admit, it would be interesting to see!)

Thanks
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DukeNasty

15 years ago

Originally Posted by baib21

Ok, let's settle this thing once and for all ...

How about I give each of you a list of 500 businesses to call and we'll see who can set more appointments for me.

(You gotta admit, it would be interesting to see!)

I don't think this is a duel at all. I think it simply proves that there are plenty of ways to skin a cat. Mwind is obviously good at what she does and that is clearly evident in her posts in terms of knowledge. People would not hire her and her husband if they didn't produce results. That is just fundamental business sense. If the people who employ her services don't generate an ROI, they wouldn't keep cutting the checks...but they do so what she is doing is working for her clients.

My business may be different from her clients. There is a very specific way that I go to market. It works in financial services and it was worked in marketing to SMBs. It is process oriented. Doesn't rely on the skill of the telemarketer (although you do have to know the scripts and "smile" when dialing). And it is built to be portable and scalable.

Again, John does thing differently than Mwind and they both may do things differently than I do. What works for one may not work for another. As far as who sets more appointments, I don't think that is a good metric. Plenty of people in my office (especially rookies) set and go on tons of worthless appointments. However, they need to do this because they have to take any and all kinds of business in order to establish baseline profitability . For me, closed business is the ultimate metric for me and the number of appointments does not have a one to one relationship with revenue because closed business varies in the revenue per deal.

The way I see it, there is no need to set or even waste my time on appointments unless my certainty of closing is fairly high. Think about it, in just one of the thirteen counties in my metro area there are over 2000 SMBs that meet my criteria. I only need to close a handful on retainer to have a seven figure business.

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Mwind076

15 years ago

DukeNasty and I agree...totally...finally lol.

As for John, I think he may have been offended at the "elder" comment...but it was a true point. There is a new breed of callers, and we didn't get trained in a call center, nor do we care how you do it in a call center. What we do works also, and just as you sell your products, methods and scripts, we have the right and duty to tell how we do things since everyone is NOT in the newbie/mass training boat.

With the unemployment rate, and inflation and the cost of working outside of the home, people have taken what they learned in corporate America and turned it into making money for themselves (like me). There is ALWAYS a new way to do something and a better way, and an old tried and true way. If there were not new ways to do things, most of the people in this forum wouldn't have any jobs because SEO's and what you all sell is new.

With that said, I think the OP here is calling for himself, he is NOT in a call center, nor was his question about scripts. I think we've all gotten off track here and hijacked his thread.

So, shut it, start a new thread, and go sell yourself somewhere else. Everyone knows how to get a hold of all of us now.

Thanks
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John Durham

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mwind076

DukeNasty and I agree...totally...finally lol.

As for John, I think he may have been offended at the "elder" comment...but it was a true point. There is a new breed of callers, and we didn't get trained in a call center, nor do we care how you do it in a call center. What we do works also, and just as you sell your products, methods and scripts, we have the right and duty to tell how we do things since everyone is NOT in the newbie/mass training boat.

With the unemployment rate, and inflation and the cost of working outside of the home, people have taken what they learned in corporate America and turned it into making money for themselves (like me). There is ALWAYS a new way to do something and a better way, and an old tried and true way. If there were not new ways to do things, most of the people in this forum wouldn't have any jobs because SEO's and what you all sell is new.

With that said, I think the OP here is calling for himself, he is NOT in a call center, nor was his question about scripts. I think we've all gotten off track here and hijacked his thread.

So, shut it, start a new thread, and go sell yourself somewhere else. Everyone knows how to get a hold of all of us now.

Not offended, just amazed at the low condescending blows... I could care less what either of you think of me personally.

However... You are presumptuous, and trying to stereo type, because I understand you, but you dont understand me.

You are LOOKING at someone from corporate upper management, and you are ALSO looking at someone who took those skills to their kitchen table and has made repeated 20-$30,000 deals overseas from his kitchen table... and who has OWNED a lead generation room that handled 5 different contracts at a time.

I know that isnt as professional as "appointment setting" though... so pardon me.

Im sorry if my experience offends you, but I guarantee, thats its just as effective as anything you kid yourself into believing that you "invented".

"Shut it"? "Start A New Thread"? "Go sell yourself somehwere else"?

Your implied accusations, and the thing that seems to offend you reveals alot about how you think about posting and what it means... You just revealed alot about your own intentions with your choice of words...

Why not just come out and say "Hey guys Im planning a report, and Im trying to pre launch, and John is getting in my way...and I want to bring him down...lets rally the new generation people, and tell everyone that he's too old to relate because he's 42 and has 20 years experience, so that makes him dumber than us...".

Basically thats what your post just said to me, and to any other intelligent person reading it.

As for hi jacking the thread, I dont think I missed the op's point at all... I think I was telling them how the SMART companies do it.

It seems you have alot of malice and jealousy toward me Mwind. I apologise for offending you.

Lastly,

Just because Im referring to call center tactics, doesnt mean Im not addressing the issue... Please broaden your perspective beyond your filters and see the whole picture.

So anyway, Im sorry if I disrupted whatever agenda the "nameless" people have here... and will politely back out ...

Sorry to call you nameless... But, you dont use your name so, I dont know know who you are. For all I know you could be an Adsense professional in another thread with a different avatar. When you see me, you are seeing John Durham, the guy that lives at 4203 cherokee rd , Rogers Ar.

Originally Posted by Mwind076

Everyone knows how to get a hold of all of us now.

What are you a legion? Are you part of a group of some sort...Haters anonymous? What is this suppose to mean?

It would be interesting to know what you mean by "All of us". Do you have some other people with you? Is there a posse standing behind you? Are you referring to you and your other 6 forum handles or What?

Really odd.

I think you are pissed because Im teaching people that they can start their own telemarketing services... and it hurts your ego to think that a newby could be trained to do what you have so much pride in...and possibly be just as good. Either that, or you just feel Im getting in the way of you setting yourself up as an authority and selling a WSO or something... Im not sure, but...

Strange.

Sorry if Im stepping on your territory.

Also, Why use terms like "I thought he was on a warpath today...", have you known me for longer than I think that you can predict my moods? You reveal alot here by your choice of words... and you are getting less believable by the second, to anyone who is really reading your posts.

Who are some of your clients on wf that you are performing appointment setting services for?

As far as your friend "caper" whoever he is up there, I will say again, my name is John Durham I live at 4203 cherokee rd rogers arkansas, I have listed work references all over the wf that can be tracked and verified of where I have managed including the "Numbers" reported on the attorney generals report that I have produced.

The last call center I ran , outside of my own, is located in Nashville Tn, I ran it to 7 million dollars in 12 months, the owners name is Bob Foster of "non Profit Services".

"Caper", Whoever you are behind your avatar... whatever this corporation you speak of that I should know... Can you be that authentic? Must we be vague? Will the huge company you worked for be pissed if you mention their name and give it exposure?

Who is it? Why cant you spit it out? What is your name? Who can verify your identity or call center sales management experience?

When you can tell me that, and you have a real name, then I will be arguing with a real person, until then for all I know you are an anonymous professional in ten different niches here. Your opinion is about as reliable as a spam bot without verification of who you are or where you have managed.

as far as your getting a rise out of me speaking VOLUMES about my character, and the one with weak self confidence chiming in with "I thought he was on a war path"...

Its speaks volumes that yes I will stand up when someone calls me elderly at 42 and tries to say publicly say my techniques are dated...?

I agree, it says Im confident enough in the truth of what Im saying to stand up to a poser when I see one.

I dont think that says anything bad about my character but thanks for putting your professional forum spammer spin on it.

Prove to me your authority and tell me where I can track down verification of your track record, then you may have the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks
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Mwind076

15 years ago

Wow, you really are offended. None of that was directed at YOU in particular except the first paragraph where I said your name. Hence the different paragraphs and the reason I said your name.

The "shut it" part was directed at everyone who was very longwinded in hijacking the OP's thread. The fact that you took it to mean YOU meant you were obviously guilty of it.

As for stating that everyone knows how to get a hold of us, it was a statement that we ALL have our contact information in our profiles and there was no need to sell ourselves here. It was a GROUP suggestion.

I really think you should back down and get a grip. You've gone from pulled together to very hostile, quickly.

While we're talking about "YOU" - this comment:

"Why not just come out and say "Hey guys Im thinking about writing a report, and Im trying to pre launch, and John is getting in my way...and I want to bring him down...lets rally the new generation people, and tell everyone that he's too old to relate because he's 42 and has 20 years experience, so that makes him dumber than us...".

Basically thats what your post just said to me, and to any other intelligent person reading it."

Shows exactly where you are wrong and how you are being very over sensitive. It's odd that when I first arrived on WF, you PM'd me, thanked me, agreed with me on just about every post I wrote. Could it be that you were just trying to sell more of your stuff to those I was talking to? Glad we won't have that problem anymore.

As for me, I don't write reports, I get paid doing what I talk about on here every day, and I talk about it on here for free, I don't sell crap to these people. Your deal is to talk about how you've done it (forever and how, and where, and how many people you've trained) and sell your tools to do it. I do it, still, every day. I don't know why you are so adamant that no one could possibly have something to say besides you. No one outside of this forum and your own knows who you are. I never came here selling any products or writing a report, or pre-launching things. I don't have a website or a program to buy. I talk to people, about what I do. You should stick to what you do and not trying to down talk people you feel threatened by.

I'd also like to point out that 3 of our clients from WF came to us with bad experiences from using your products and strictly asked that I NOT use your scripts, and that your method was overhyped. They were happy to be informed that we don't use scripts and we had a different way of doing things, and I'm happy to report that they are all quite pleased.

So, to close, no one talks about you and to you all the time, you should not flatter yourself that much...however, this response was all for you.

As for who I am, that pretty little southern belle over in that picture is all me. Are you a dirty old man pic hunter trying to get more? Is business that bad that you have to try to attack and vilify those that are in opposition to you? Are you seriously implying that because I won't post my home address I'm not real? If you don't think I'm real, why are you so intent on talking about me? Since I'm not doing business with you, there is no need for you to know my work history, or have any access to who it is we have worked with. I can't believe I'm even replying to this crap-fest you are perpetrating.

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John Durham

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mwind076

Wow, you really are offended. None of that was directed at YOU in particular except the first paragraph where I said your name.

You said enough in that paragraph to validate my point that you are being malicious. And yes, people who say such things offend me.

Originally Posted by Mwind076

The "shut it" part was directed at everyone who was very longwinded in hijacking the OP's thread. The fact that you took it to mean YOU meant you were obviously guilty of it.

Please dont offend our intelligence, it was clear who you were talking to.

Originally Posted by Mwind076

As for stating that everyone knows how to get a hold of us, it was a statement that we ALL have our contact information in our profiles and there was no need to sell ourselves here. It was a GROUP suggestion.

Again you insult our intelligence. I think anyone who reads it can see what you were saying. You are trying to create an "Us and Them" scenario.

Originally Posted by Mwind076

I really think you should back down and get a grip. You've gone from pulled together to very hostile, quickly.

Again, I have a healthy sense of "righteous indignation", you are using your own words to describe and put a spin on. That is not hostile.

Originally Posted by Mwind076

While we're talking about "YOU" - this comment:

"Why not just come out and say "Hey guys Im thinking about writing a report, and Im trying to pre launch, and John is getting in my way...and I want to bring him down...lets rally the new generation people, and tell everyone that he's too old to relate because he's 42 and has 20 years experience, so that makes him dumber than us...".

Basically thats what your post just said to me, and to any other intelligent person reading it."

Shows exactly where you are wrong and how you are being very over sensitive. It's odd that when I first arrived on WF, you PM'd me, thanked me, agreed with me on just about every post I wrote. Could it be that you were just trying to sell more of your stuff to those I was talking to? Glad we won't have that problem anymore.

What does this mean "Glad we wont have that problem anymore"?

Secondly, I agree when I agree, that proves the opposite of your point, that I have no vendetta... But it raises question as to why you are so offended by me, if admittedly I give you props when I think you are right, then the contrast here actually shows that I am objective to separate the issues, and attack "points" not people. So Thank you for telling everyone that I emailed you with encouragement when i thought you were right about something, and as you can see I disagree with whatever point I think is BS... Has nothing to do with the person.

Originally Posted by Mwind076

As for me, I don't write reports, I get paid doing what I talk about on here every day, and I talk about it on here for free, I don't sell crap to these people. Your deal is to talk about how you've done it (forever and how, and where, and how many people you've trained) and sell your tools to do it.

I had no sig here for ten years straight and contributed freely. So That only means something to YOU who doesnt even know me, but has just decided they are jealous.

When you been around the WF for 10 years, and you finally decide to create a product after sharing freely for all that time... then tell me about it. By the way, Allen Says has been around here since the ole school too... Are you gonna tell him that means he doesnt understand the new generation? He practically RAISED the new damn generation.

Originally Posted by Mwind076

I do it, still, every day. I don't know why you are so adamant that no one could possibly have something to say besides you. No one outside of this forum and your own knows who you are. I never came here selling any products or writing a report, or pre-launching things. I don't have a website or a program to buy. I talk to people, about what I do. You should stick to what you do and not trying to down talk people you feel threatened by.

Well I want to apologize to you then, because you still do it everyday after 6 years... Im sorry that I became a champion manager with my experience and call center developer, and you used your talent to go no further than the phone... I genuinely apologize that you never made it out of the booth... and Im sorry that Big Bad Me, flaunts my experience in front of poor ole you...

Im also sorry that you think the fact that you still do it everyday, means that I am less legit, because I was dedicated enough to move beyond that, and so now I have alot of training experience to write about, and that happens to have value. I truly apologize for that. You are right, you stayed in the cubicle for six years, while I moved up to training hundreds o0f people and witnessing thousands of perspectives beyond just my own cubicle perspective...

Im sorry. I didnt mean to trump you. Everyone has equal opportunity.

Originally Posted by Mwind076

I'd also like to point out that 3 of our clients from WF came to us with bad experiences from using your products and strictly asked that I NOT use your scripts, and that your method was over hyped. They were happy to be informed that we don't use scripts and we had a different way of doing things, and I'm happy to report that they are all quite pleased.

Yes Mwind, Im positive that you are happy to point that out.:rolleyes:

There are alot of people who have bad experiences with ANY script. Im sure that out of the 2200 people who I have on the TMF... the market that I basically CREATED for people like you, that not everyone has good luck with my scripts or products.

Again, Im sure you are happy to point that out... but its really not like a newsflash. In fact every telemarketer I have ever watched walk out a call center door, it was because the job sucked or the market was burnt out, or any other excuse in the world other than themselves. Blame is most peoples way of handling failure.

So Im not surprised by what you are saying. But Im glad you are "happy" in pointing it out.

Originally Posted by Mwind076

So, to close, no one talks about you and to you all the time, you should not flatter yourself that much...however, this response was all for you.

I think your true colors are coming out here. You really do have issues with me dont you? I almost hurt for your inner child.

Originally Posted by Mwind076

As for who I am, that pretty little southern belle over in that picture is all me. Are you a dirty old man pic hunter trying to get more?

I think both of those descriptions are inaccurate, particularly the "pretty and little" part... and the other part isnt even worth comment... But thats just my opinion. To each his own.

Originally Posted by Mwind076

Is business that bad that you have to try to attack and vilify those that are in opposition to you? Are you seriously implying that because I won't post my home address I'm not real? If you don't think I'm real, why are you so intent on talking about me? Since I'm not doing business with you, there is no need for you to know my work history, or have any access to who it is we have worked with. I can't believe I'm even replying to this crap-fest you are perpetrating.

Hey now... I was arguing a "point", you are the one who came on here making references to me, and your buddy to to rally agreement that "John is hostile", and he's "Elderly" (lol) ... blah blah...

I was in a debate about a "point". And yes, most real business people do not mind exposing their true contact details...and using their real names. And yes, people tend to trust those more who do... That should be understandable, besides I was referring to Caper with that statement, or did we get confused?

Im out, have fun. Let the new generation rule.

Thanks

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TheCG

15 years ago

Originally Posted by John Durham

Not offended, just amazed at the low condescending blows... I could care less what either of you think of me personally.

However... You are presumptuous, and trying to stereo type, because I understand you, but you dont understand me.

You are LOOKING at someone from corporate upper management, and you are ALSO looking at someone who took those skills to their kitchen table and has made repeated 20-$30,000 deals overseas from his kitchen table... and who has OWNED a lead generation room that handled 5 different contracts at a time.

I know that isnt as professional as "appointment setting" though... so pardon me.

Im sorry if my experience offends you, but I guarantee, thats its just as effective as anything you kid yourself into believing that you "invented".

"Shut it"? "Start A New Thread"? "Go sell yourself somehwere else"?

Your implied accusations, and the thing that seems to offend you reveals alot about how you think about posting and what it means... You just revealed alot about your own intentions with your choice of words...

Why not just come out and say "Hey guys Im planning a report, and Im trying to pre launch, and John is getting in my way...and I want to bring him down...lets rally the new generation people, and tell everyone that he's too old to relate because he's 42 and has 20 years experience, so that makes him dumber than us...".

Basically thats what your post just said to me, and to any other intelligent person reading it.

As for hi jacking the thread, I dont think I missed the op's point at all... I think I was telling them how the SMART companies do it.

It seems you have alot of malice and jealousy toward me Mwind. I apologise for offending you.

Whatever it is, you are showing some ugly colors there.

Lastly,

Just because Im referring to call center tactics, doesnt mean Im not addressing the issue... Please broaden your perspective beyond your filters and see the whole picture.

So anyway, Im sorry if I disrupted whatever agenda the "nameless" people have here... and will politely back out ...

Sorry to call you nameless... But, you dont use your name so, I dont know know who you are. For all I know you could be an Adsense professional in another thread with a different avatar. When you see me, you are seeing John Durham, the guy that lives at 4203 cherokee rd , Rogers Ar.

What are you a legion? Are you part of a group of some sort...Haters anonymous? What is this suppose to mean?

Really odd.

I think you are pissed because Im teaching people that they can start their own telemarketing services... and it hurts your ego to think that a newby could be trained to do what you have so much pride in...and possibly be just as good. Either that, or you just feel Im getting in the way of you setting yourself up as an authority and selling a WSO or something... Im not sure, but...It would be interesting to know what you mean by "All of us". Do you have some other people with you? Is there a posse standing behind you? AAre nyou referring to you and your other 6 forum handles or What?

Strange.

Sorry if Im stepping on your territory.

Also, Why use terms like "I thought he was on a warpath today...", have you known me for longer than I think that you can predict my moods? You reveal alot, to anyone who is really reading your posts.

Again it sounds alot stranger "in context".

As far as your buddy carpel tunnel or whoever he is up there, I will say again, my name is John Durham I live at 4203 cherokee rd rogers arkansas, I have listed work references all over the wf that can be tracked and verified of where I have managed including the "Numbers" reported on the attorney generals report that I have produced.

The call center owner of the last call center mI ran in Nashville to 7 million dollars in 12 months is Bob Foster owner of NPS in Nashville Tn.

Now... Whoever you are behind your avatar...

This corporation you speak of that I know... Who is it? Who did you work for? Who can verify your identity or work experience?

When you can tell me that in public then I will be argueing with a real person, until then for all I know you are an anonymous professional in ten different niches here.

So your opinion is about as reliable as a spam bot with no identity or verification of who you are or where you have managed.

Lets be real.

You tell 'em, John...

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Gladiator

15 years ago

When you start pitching a new deal whether you are seasoned closer or a newbie you should use a script!
Once you learned the pitch get rid of the script and talk naturally and take charge lead the conversation. Remember you are the Guru of what ever you are pitching.

Speak clearly make sure they can hear,
you ask questions,
make sure they are listening to you,
involve them in the conversation,
don't have a one way conversation
answer their objections and take control of the conversation!

Ask them some thing like "are you with me so far" as you get into your pitch! Big mistake is to just keep pitching without checking if you are connecting with them.

Anyway sometimes you can "lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"

Make your calls give your best pitch and always end the call on a positive note! It usually takes more than one call depending on the services or product offered.

There is too much to say about closing but if you make enough call you will get better and you will close some deals. Remember it is also the numbers game!

Andre

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ramireec

15 years ago

I like to call a couple of times till I actually call the decision maker and get a no! then I ask if they would be interested if I call in a month or so most of the time they say yes and they are more receptive when I call to follow up in a month or so.
Regards
Suave

Thanks

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