To pay...or not to pay...Upfront.

Sounds like a rant caused by a recent unpleasant experience .

It depends on who I am working with as to getting paid upfront. For instance, I've been working with someone for two years on a project that could well bring in a substantial sum of money over the next year or two. I met them in person, liked them, and started doing work for them without any upfront payments and very minimal payments along the way.

With other people I don't know, there is a slim to no chance I'd work like that.

It all depends on the relationship ... and in my case, my gut feeling. Oh did I forget to mention my wife's feelings as well? She frequently reads people better than I do from the standpoint of getting paid.

Marvin

My personal opinions often come off as rants...however, it is a common sentiment shared by most everyone here, that has heard it much more than once.

I tend to be a straight shooter, however you can rest assured you know where I stand at all times

I agree, I am a good judge of character. My husband likes to see the best, and hope for the best, and I am less forgiving. I think it's a valid point though. I have actually asked someone that said this to me "so, you'll make me a website to my specifications, based on your research of what I want, and then I can pay you for it?" He said no...we have worked together for months now, and he paid upfront

I think people often ask for something, they wouldn't do. I don't expect anyone to do work for me, without being paid.

Yes, we all have families, bills, etc... The last thing any of us want to do is give our hard-earned money to someone and not see results, especially if you don't provide a shred of evidence that you're NOT like every other telemarketing firm.

Listen, you're not in an industry that has a GOOD rep. It has a bad one. Much like SEO. I have to win over clients that have lost $1000's, sometimes HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of dollars. I have to give them references, talk to current and past clients, look at my portfolio to win over clients. I've made the choice to stay in this industry though, even though it might be a little more tough to acquire clients than others. You might need to do the same.

Agreed - that's why a "Pay-As-You-Go" model is a great way to start a relationship, as we spoke about. That's minimal risk on both parties. Obviously, you should always pre-qualify who you give this opportunity to, but if you want to build rapport, especially in taunted industry, it's a good way to go.

Let me paint you a recent picture...

Prospect calls me. We go through the whole presentation and says "I've been burned by a few companies just outsourcing the web design and SEO to India. I need to see your abilities first."

Now, I had already pre-qualified him and knew these guys had the budget. I had already spent a good 90 minutes on the phone with him too, building rapport and understanding his business/model/USPs/etc..

I agreed to do a mock-up design. My proposal prior to the mock-up was $9,000 design and $2,000/mo. in SEO services. He agreed to all of it, he just wanted to make sure that I could actually do what I was saying. So I did. I did a complete design mock-up absolutely free.

He signed that afternoon and I had a check in hand.

If this would've been in another industry, I would get it. But this is my industry, where there is NO BARRIER TO ENTRY and ANYONE can claim their an SEO GURU, so sometimes you have to go over and behind for prospects that you know are worth the time.

This doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen.

I completely agree with that. But no one knows you.

I know this rant is because of our Skype conversation. And as I said, building rapport with me and doing a small pay-as-we-go campaign would've been a good idea. I spend $1,000's of dollars in marketing every month. Warriors on here that know me know I'm the real deal.

I wasn't asking you to set 20 appts. and then I'll pay you, that would've put all the risk on you. Nor do I think I should bear all the risk and pay upfront for your services either. Pay-As-You-Go solves this risk factor. Once you've shown that you're not the rest, I would happily pay thousands each month, as the rapport had been built.

Lastly, I'll leave you with this. I do a lot of CL postings. The last thing I want to do is give a company $2,000 upfront for a month's worth of postings and then never hear from them. I always have them do a test round of posting to see if they can and won't have a problem. They do a their postings, on their dime. Once I see it and it's verified they know what they're doing... BOOM... they have my business.

Edit: (After reading the rest of the thread) Yes I also know Adam is the real deal... And I know Mwind is as well. Lol

I guess you two dont know that about each OTHER yet.

Adam would be a great testimonial. Ps. He WOULD pay you. I would give him a small test package for a few hundred dollars.

I think the way to achieve thousands of dollars with this at the WF is to run a wso offering small $300 test packages. You would get several clients and it would be the same amount of business.

Honestly... Once a relationship is there and the trust is there... I have no problem paying for anything.
But, until that point I am very hesitant. I can see both sides. The buyer and provider.

When I have nver worked with a client, and its not a referral, I get half down and half upon completion. This is due to the trust issue. When its referral based, or an exisiting client, I get the full amount upfront. Since the trust is already there.

The key is minimizing risk from both sides.

Joined the War Room about 2 hours ago. WSO is being sumbitted NOW...as I type. JD check your PM please.

I agree with all that was said JD, we don't know each other, but, sorry, our process is our process, just as Adam's is his own

No hard feelings, someone will work with him on his terms, as we have ones that go on ours! There's plenty to go around!

Edit: Adam, I didn't call you out for a reason, and that was that I didn't feel it was anyone's business! Although, I'm glad you had some input. I do think we both agree, but are just at an impass.

You can generally tell if you need to ask for a payment up front or not

If the payment is fairly small below about $120 then i will collect it once it`s fully complete but if i think there is a chance that they may bump me then i will ask for say 10 - 15% up front payment

If it is a bigger job for around $120 or bigger then i will always ask for an up front payment

I ask for 50% up front and then the other 50% after it has finished

With local businesses you will generally be fine but when it comes to people online that is a whole different story and i would be way more careful

Paul

Well I think you have a bad experience with someone. There are some issues in this online work and those are not like the work in your home town market.
So if you have a project and giving to any one the same points you have in your mind the other person have too as some time work take time to show up or its look small but after taking the challenge you feel its a big task and you start working but did not end with the time in that case no payment made by the clients. So in my opinion I think upfront is must.

I know only a line which is (I work for money if you need loyalty hire a dog)

Yup.

Telemarketing, direct mail, SEO... ladden with pikers.

It's a reality you have to deal with, given you're dealing with someone who's experienced.

Like suggested, why don't you do some type of small test-drive package, or offer some type of appointment guarantee to mitigate the initial mistrust?

Once people see you can perform at some level, like the dude above mentioned, the real players are ready to roll out big money to manage their campaign.

It went live this morning, it's in my sig. There is a test pack in there! I think its all in what you prefer. I'm not upset with anyone for their preferences, and they shouldn't be upset with mine. We will both find someone that's a good fit for us!

It happens in online business and sometime offline also.
But You should avoid all these destruction and step forward.
It will show you the way of success.

I always get money upfront. A lot of my work comes from members here and I have never had a problem with payment. I guess here they can see me and see I have a reputation. I also get some work from other sources and I still ask for money up front. I tell them I simply can;'t afford to hurt my reputation by not doing a good job. Some will, some won't, so what, next!

It's clear that it's a matter of what each person wants, and to expect anyone to change their mind (when you won't) is unrealistic.

There's always more out there!

I pay escrow the first time then 50 percent the second time and normally when I know the sub contractor after a project I paid him immediately upon completion. I know this may not a sound business model but I do it always. In return I do have superb people to work for me and turn things around very fast. A little bit goes a long way for these people.

Mwind you raise a really important question. As many people on here might have seen, I offer similar telemarketing services to that which you offer. However on this forum and only on this forum I offer mine with no payment upfront. Normally I ask for payment upfront just like you. However with the warrior forum being a global market and with it being attracting so much traffic and exposure in Google search results, I thought that building a little trust and reducing the perceived risk would be a good idea. Ironically I've still had many people offering to pay upfront!

I do applaud you for posting this question though and the more I read your posts, the more I seem to like the cut of your jib to be honest!

Jacob, I'm going to PM you, we had someone ask us to do calls in the UK, and we only do Canada and US...so I'm sending you a lead

As for my "style" - I appreciate that you like it. Some think I'm rude, that I rant, and other things...truth is, I tell it like it is, and I'm confident in what I know It comes off wrong sometimes.

I have found WF to be wonderful. The majority of people that are helpful have always been around, are helpful and will stick around. Those that are not here with good intentions, or that are troublemakers fall off quickly, and the rare few that stick around are well known for their antics.

I have found though, that you still have to be careful here. We've had a few warriors (new and old) that aren't understanding of what's needed to be successful when we call. So, we weren't able to work with them, and at first, it's how we got burned. They expected us to produce with lists that were not targeted, or with hours that didn't allow us to perform as requested, or other things, simply put, if you don't provide me with the tools I ask for or listen to my recommendations, then no, I won't get you what you want and you will be disappointed. That's when we realized we had to be more stringent, require payment upfront, and require that we have what we've requested before a start. We have no issue telling someone the quality of a list, because it's only going to hold us back, or it's going to help them get what they are asking us for.

I applaud you for being trusting, but as with all things, warrior forum has it's good and bad seeds, and you should always be prepared. I've found that our business hasn't suffered by requesting payment upfront, in fact, people understand and know that we've been around long enough to get burned and to have the ability to stand our ground with our process, which only helps!

Look for that PM.

25-50% NONE refundable deposit and a contract my friend, those two things will ease your pain a lot, trust me. Also as someone mentioned, a escrow service, but I would only use that for BIG jobs and couple with with a contract and milestone payments.

I did mention a contract didn't I?

We don't do contracts...I've said why before, but in a nutshell, they're unenforceable because it's he said/she said type stuff. Also, for us, it would cost more to get a lawyer or file a small claims suit because we never did more than a week's work at a time without payment.

We just cut out all the headache and work on a paid upfront basis. No need for deposits or refund policies or any of that. You pay, you like it, you keep paying...you don't, don't pay again.