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You Are Wasting Your Time With SEO

by MrMike
110 replies
  • SEO
    • |
I get a kick out of people talking about SEO. To me it is a big waste of time. You are working on something with the hopes that Google may or may not like you. To me, you are limiting yourself and working hard for limited results. Why would you want to work hard on something that has a slim chance of making you "A LoT" of money. The only people making money on SEO, are the ones selling you their ebook. I agree that some site optimization is necessary, but you shouldn't rely on it to bring you tons of traffic.

My recommendation is learn how to buy traffic. If you don't have money to buy traffic, save up until you have enough. Once you mastered buying traffic and converting, you are free to do anything you want. Your money making potential is unlimited and you will have the freedom to enjoy it.
#seo #time #wasting
  • Profile picture of the author Linux
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    • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
      First of all, there are people who think they know SEO and say its useless but chances are they simply do not know what they are doing or have purchased an ebook which worked in 2006 but does not today.

      If you think that sponsored results are the only way to get clicks on Google you have got to be out of your mind or severely uneducated on the subject. Perhaps its just my opinion but I would say 8 out of 10 people ONLY click on natural results when they conduct a search on Google and for the most part those 8 out of 10 people will NEVER click on a sponsored ad.

      If you are my competition in any of the niches I am involved in, I would hate to change your mind though because while I get 8 free clicks your pool of possible conversions comes from only two which you pay for.

      SEO is a very valuable yet tricky aspect of marketing to a specific group of people and I would highly advise you start today on trying to find a product from a reputable marketer who can teach you the correct way to implement proper techniques.

      With over 50 domains and a few years worth of conversions and undeniable proof, I wholeheartedly disagree with you 100%.
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      • Profile picture of the author MrMike
        Originally Posted by NicheMayhem View Post

        First of all, there are people who think they know SEO and say its useless but chances are they simply do not know what they are doing or have purchased an ebook which worked in 2006 but does not today.

        If you think that sponsored results are the only way to get clicks on Google you have got to be out of your mind or severely uneducated on the subject. Perhaps its just my opinion but I would say 8 out of 10 people ONLY click on natural results when they conduct a search on Google and for the most part those 8 out of 10 people will NEVER click on a sponsored ad.

        If you are my competition in any of the niches I am involved in, I would hate to change your mind though because while I get 8 free clicks your pool of possible conversions comes from only two which you pay for.

        SEO is a very valuable yet tricky aspect of marketing to a specific group of people and I would highly advise you start today on trying to find a product from a reputable marketer who can teach you the correct way to implement proper techniques.

        With over 50 domains and a few years worth of conversions and undeniable proof, I wholeheartedly disagree with you 100%.
        Thanks for your reply.. When I talk about buying traffic, I am more talking about Media Buys rather than Adwords. I should have made that clear. If I might ask, how much effort do you put into your SEO? Do you worry about losing page rank? There is only so much room on the front page of any search engine. Why waste your time trying to compete when you can just buy it?
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        • Profile picture of the author Joseph Then
          Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

          Why waste your time trying to compete when you can just buy it?
          That's because when you stop paying, your traffic stops.
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          • Profile picture of the author MrMike
            Originally Posted by Joseph Then View Post

            That's because when you stop paying, your traffic stops.
            Not if you build a list with your traffic. And if your making a profit, why would you stop buying traffic?
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            • Profile picture of the author Joseph Then
              Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

              Not if you build a list with your traffic. And if your making a profit, why would you stop buying traffic?
              That's precisely my point. It's WHAT YOU DO WITH THE TRAFFIC, whether it is paid or free.

              And of course, if you are making a profit, you don't stop buying traffic. BUT when you are BANNED for no apparent reason, you are stuck.

              It happen to many Adwords advertiser, and don't think this would not happen to you because it's media buying and not PPC.
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        • Profile picture of the author NicheMayhem
          Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

          Thanks for your reply.. When I talk about buying traffic, I am more talking about Media Buys rather than Adwords. I should have made that clear. If I might ask, how much effort do you put into your SEO? Do you worry about losing page rank? There is only so much room on the front page of any search engine. Why waste your time trying to compete when you can just buy it?

          lol @ Jeremy. Yes it does suck, THAT I will agree with.

          I put a ton of effort into SEO when I first build a site. I am a sniper site builder, even though it wasn't until recently it was called that and glamorized by a guy named George Brown who makes a boatload of money.

          When I first build it I pay close attention to the domain name and the keywords I am planning to target, proper research and assessing the competition are vital parts of a profitable niche site and directly relate to SEO efforts.

          If and when I check in on a site and have lost a few spots, I go and analyze the site which is outranking me then change some things, add content, or target a few other related long tails to bring in other traffic.

          For the most part I build a site and never touch it again to be quite honest, after doing the initial research well it brings in visitors and costs me nothing.

          As far as your last question, I think that depends on your own commitment and dedication to your business as well as the type of niche, business, product, or information you are providing. Buying sponsored slots are an easy way to avoid the sometimes tedious tasks of establishing proper SEO but like I said before, more people click on natural results rather then the sponsored results at the top of the page.

          If you rely only on paid traffic with Google you are no doubt leaving some easy money on the table, just have to do your initial research well and find the keywords which will get you decent free traffic.

          My experience with media buys may be very limited but as far as I know, buying into advertisements from specific service providers barely relates to the search engines and the ad network or media publisher that you are buying space on are more directly responsible for getting the eyeballs in front of your ads. Of course when I think of Media Buys, I think of TV, newspapers and magazines.
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  • Profile picture of the author spanisheye
    MrMike, have you perhaps not had very good results from SEO?

    ALL the traffic to my websites is FREE and has been for the last six years. I make a very comfortable living from this FREE traffic and work when I want to. I have never paid for any traffic and really don't see the need to, not now or in the future.

    I for one certainly cannot agree with anything you have said.
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    • Profile picture of the author MrMike
      Originally Posted by spanisheye View Post

      MrMike, have you perhaps not had very good results from SEO?

      ALL the traffic to my websites is FREE and has been for the last six years. I make a very comfortable living from this FREE traffic and work when I want to. I have never paid for any traffic and really don't see the need to, not now or in the future.

      I for one certainly cannot agree with anything you have said.
      I am glad you are making profit from your business. Would you agree that you don't have control on how much traffic you can bring to your site? My point is if you learn to buy traffic, you work less and have more control over your business.
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  • Profile picture of the author spanisheye
    A good friend of mine runs a large e-commerce store and he pays for most of his traffic. His philosophy is that when he comes to sell it (which will be for big bucks) he can show how much the traffic costs and the associated handsome profit it makes.

    If he depended on SEO there would be more risk to the buyer if they were unable to maintain it ranking well in the search engines.

    So yes, in that sort of scenario it is better to pay for traffic.

    It's just that I'm not looking to sell my sites at the moment!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jimian
    I see what you mean but adding the very basics of SEO could never hurt a site:

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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Then
    You can spend money for all you want. I'll stick with my organic traffic...

    Anyway, traffic is just one thing, what you DO with the traffic (free or paid) will determine the success of your business.
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    • Profile picture of the author MrMike
      Originally Posted by Joseph Then View Post

      You can spend money for all you want. I'll stick with my organic traffic...

      Anyway, traffic is just one thing, what you DO with the traffic (free or paid) will determine the success of your business.
      I can understand your reply and I am happy for your "success" but let's be real, from your signature you sell a back linking service. You shouldn't agree with me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

        I can understand your reply and I am happy for your "success" but let's be real, from your signature you sell a back linking service. You shouldn't agree with me.
        He doesn't agree with you...because you're wrong...it has nothing to do with what he is selling.

        I do SEO, PPC, Media Buys, blah blah blah

        And I can tell you from experience that so far SEO has by far given me the highest ROI of any sort of traffic we have ever had. Sure, with media buys and PPC you can put your money in, and start getting traffic right away, but as soon as the money is gone, so is your traffic.

        But, you can just keep paying...right?

        Fair enough, and you're right...you can, but you also have to keep checking the campaign to make sure some idiot isn't just randomly clicking on your ads and costing you money...or keep checking to make sure your stats are holding true. So, you have the money you paid in, plus the time you spend making sure everything is working the way it should.

        With SEO, I can pay someone for the next week to do the work- never look at the site again, and in many cases it is still spitting money at me 6 months to a year later.
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        • Profile picture of the author MrMike
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

          He doesn't agree with you...because you're wrong...it has nothing to do with what he is selling.

          I do SEO, PPC, Media Buys, blah blah blah

          And I can tell you from experience that so far SEO has by far given me the highest ROI of any sort of traffic we have ever had. Sure, with media buys and PPC you can put your money in, and start getting traffic right away, but as soon as the money is gone, so is your traffic.

          But, you can just keep paying...right?

          Fair enough, and you're right...you can, but you also have to keep checking the campaign to make sure some idiot isn't just randomly clicking on your ads and costing you money...or keep checking to make sure your stats are holding true. So, you have the money you paid in, plus the time you spend making sure everything is working the way it should.

          With SEO, I can pay someone for the next week to do the work- never look at the site again, and in many cases it is still spitting money at me 6 months to a year later.
          I really have to disagree with you. With buying traffic you immediately know if a campaign has potential.
          SEO might give you a high return but your limited in the amount of money you can make.
          You also have to wait to see if all your SEO efforts work and if it sticks.
          You make an argument that you have to worry about someone randomly clicking my ad costing me money and then having to check stats. That is small potatoes. Plus, who doesn't check their stats. Not a very good argument.
          If you know how to buy traffic and get a profitable campaign you don't stop buying traffic. If you build a list with your traffic, and you decide not to spend traffic, then you can do ad swaps to keep building your list.
          BTW.. I have seen some of your WSO's you are a very good copywriter.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
    Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

    I get a kick out of people talking about SEO. To me it is a big waste of time. You are working on something with the hopes that Google may or may not like you. To me, you are limiting yourself and working hard for limited results. Why would you want to work hard on something that has a slim chance of making you "A LoT" of money. The only people making money on SEO, are the ones selling you their ebook. I agree that some site optimization is necessary, but you shouldn't rely on it to bring you tons of traffic.
    Yes, everyone stop doing SEO.

    It sucks...that is all.
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  • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
    Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

    I get a kick out of people talking about SEO. To me it is a big waste of time. You are working on something with the hopes that Google may or may not like you. To me, you are limiting yourself and working hard for limited results. Why would you want to work hard on something that has a slim chance of making you "A LoT" of money. The only people making money on SEO, are the ones selling you their ebook. I agree that some site optimization is necessary, but you shouldn't rely on it to bring you tons of traffic.

    My recommendation is learn how to buy traffic. If you don't have money to buy traffic, save up until you have enough. Once you mastered buying traffic and converting, you are free to do anything you want. Your money making potential is unlimited and you will have the freedom to enjoy it.
    Not true.

    I've managed to rank one of my articles, on a PR4 Web 2.0 site, above #300 in Google, for a single word keyword that is searched millions of times daily worldwide. Over 4 billion results are generated when the word is queried in Google.

    If I can get it on the first page, I can retire. Imagine if the site I was using was a PR7 or 8 site? (it will be)

    oh, and with it's current ranking, it has over 11,000+ views already....

    Take the time to learn SEO....really learn it....and, you can do very well....
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    • Profile picture of the author theemperor
      Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

      Not true.

      I've managed to rank one of my articles, on a PR4 Web 2.0 site, above #300 in Google, for a single word keyword that is searched millions of times daily worldwide. Over 4 billion results are generated when the word is queried in Google.

      If I can get it on the first page, I can retire. Imagine if the site I was using was a PR7 or 8 site? (it will be)

      oh, and with it's current ranking, it has over 11,000+ views already....

      Take the time to learn SEO....really learn it....and, you can do very well....
      It's amazing you are getting so much traffic for #300 in Google.
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  • Profile picture of the author paul wolfe
    The SEO discussion in an interesting one.

    Firstly, NicheMayhem raised the question of how many people click on the Google Adword results. In the pre launch content for his latest launch Ryan Deiss quoted a Marketing Sherpa survey that said that less than 5% of visitors click on an Adwords link.

    Secondly how much SEO work you need to do depends very much on what kind of site you run and where you are looking to get your traffic from. We all need traffic - but Google is by no means the only source of getting traffic.

    I read a blog post recently where Pat Flynn (Smart Passive Income - Alexa Rank less than 20,000) said he doesn't concern himself with SEO, he just concentrates on putting out content.

    Steve Pavlina - Alexa rank 1700 - also doesn't do any SEO - he just puts quality content out there.

    With my main site I spent a lot fo time working on SEO and building backlinks so that I ranked well. Currently I rank 2 out of 60 million - and you know what? It wouldn't make any difference if I ranked 2 or 202. 99% of my traffic comes from either YouTube or Guest Posts.

    So before you spend hours working on SEO perhaps you should work out where your traffic is going to come from - and focus on those strategies. Some sites and business models need SEO - some don't.
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    • Profile picture of the author Intrepreneur
      This is absurd!

      SEO is far from a waste of time.

      Of course that is in the right circumstances so yes sometimes people do waste their time but the SEO experts are not wasting their time on SEO.
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by paul wolfe View Post

      The SEO discussion in an interesting one.

      Firstly, NicheMayhem raised the question of how many people click on the Google Adword results. In the pre launch content for his latest launch Ryan Deiss quoted a Marketing Sherpa survey that said that less than 5% of visitors click on an Adwords link.

      Secondly how much SEO work you need to do depends very much on what kind of site you run and where you are looking to get your traffic from. We all need traffic - but Google is by no means the only source of getting traffic.

      I read a blog post recently where Pat Flynn (Smart Passive Income - Alexa Rank less than 20,000) said he doesn't concern himself with SEO, he just concentrates on putting out content.

      Steve Pavlina - Alexa rank 1700 - also doesn't do any SEO - he just puts quality content out there.

      With my main site I spent a lot fo time working on SEO and building backlinks so that I ranked well. Currently I rank 2 out of 60 million - and you know what? It wouldn't make any difference if I ranked 2 or 202. 99% of my traffic comes from either YouTube or Guest Posts.

      So before you spend hours working on SEO perhaps you should work out where your traffic is going to come from - and focus on those strategies. Some sites and business models need SEO - some don't.
      Was this before or after his rather lengthy post about Market Samurai?
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      • Profile picture of the author paul wolfe
        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        Was this before or after his rather lengthy post about Market Samurai?
        Howie
        Here's what Pat said:

        "Pat: Here are the keys to my blog's growth and success:
        1. Consistency -- keeping content coming on a regular basis, and not just content, but good, quality, killer content.
        2. Interaction -- I try my best to respond to every comment, and I think people take notice. It helps build the community around my brand and builds trust and authority at the same time.
        3. Transparency -- I think I'm unique in this realm, because I'm totally transparent about everything I do online. That's why my monthly reports tend to be my most popular blog posts each month, because I talk about my income down to the penny. Not everyone is doing this, and this is my way to stand out amongst a sea of other blogging and make money online blogs. There's no room for hype in a totally honest environment.
        Notice how I didn't mention anything about search engines =) "


        This was on a post on ThinkTraffic.net:
        10 Blogs with Explosive Growth to Learn From



        So to answer your question this would be before his Market Samurai review.
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  • Profile picture of the author spanisheye
    The problem with paid traffic is that day you can no longer afford it, your traffic stops.

    If your SEO fails you can at least start paying for traffic with all the money you made!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
    SEO is worthless and Apple, Walmart, Target, IBM and the others know it too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Intrepreneur
      Originally Posted by Marhelper View Post

      SEO is worthless and Apple, Walmart, Target, IBM and the others know it too.
      I'm guessing you mean branding is better than SEO??

      Which makes it better than any other form of advertising in the world.
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      • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
        Originally Posted by Intrepreneur View Post

        I'm guessing you mean branding is better than SEO??

        Which makes it better than any other form of advertising in the world.
        No, I was being sarcastic. Of course, the big companies know the importance of SEO, they spend millions on SEO.
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  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    SEO should be a very small part of what anyone does online.

    More like 5% out of 100% of your efforts.

    Tal
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  • Profile picture of the author pheonix44
    Steve Pavlina - Alexa rank 1700 - also doesn't do any SEO - he just puts quality content out there.
    If you study what he does carefully you will see that he does do SEO. He even mentions it in one of his posts where he tell people how to do what he is doing. He also has a tone of articles on EZA. Now he gets so many views that people basically do the backlink building for him.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    Ummm...You go ahead Mr Mike and buy all the traffic you want. Just because you don't know how to perform SEO and profit from it doesn't mean the rest of us can't. On the flip side of things Google loves folks like you. They laugh themselves all the way to the bank with every single click that they sell you.
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    • Profile picture of the author iSoftware
      Build vs. Buy? The answer is NEITHER. Or, actually both.

      There are 3 ways to acquire traffic:

      -Build (ex. SEO)
      -Buy (like what's mentioned here)
      -BORROW! (highest roi, lowest start up costs, lowest time spent)

      Alot of people don't take into account that a) seo is risky b)it's often hard to scale [show me a billion dollar SEO specialist....) and c)if you ever plan to sell your business a serious investor or business broker IS going to look at whether or not the majority of your traffic is coming from one source. If it is as is the case with many people who focus on SEO, then that's a problem


      I do do seo (ranked for some excellent terms in ad-rich markets) but the secret to massive, rapid wealth is leverage.

      I've only just discovered the glories of leveraged traffic which is going to where the traffic is then redirecting it.

      There's a 3rd option better than buying OR building and that's figuring out who has the traffic and redirecting it. Here I'm talking about strategic joint ventures, coregistration, etc.

      Lastly, only 6% of internet traffic flows through google (little known stat) so if you are spending all of your time focused on seo in google, there's an entire universe of BUYERS (which is what it's really all about) that you are missing out on.

      Actually more emails are sent each day than probably searches on google per year so if you can figure out how to leverage/borrow email traffic (email being a medium that has proven itself for over 15 years now),that's even higher roi...
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  • Profile picture of the author mijagi
    What is trash for some people can be treasure to other people : )
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  • Profile picture of the author GuerrillaIM
    Comparing SEO with paid traffic is comparing apples to oranges. Real marketers see both as viable ways to make cash.

    SEO is not easy to learn as it takes a lot of time and patience. The majority of ebooks on the subject are just plain wrong or misleading. Many ebooks that appeal to newbies try to make a fairly complicated process sound as simple as pressing a few buttons, but in truth to get good results you have to constantly be doing your own analysis and not relying so much on what others tell you.

    All you need are a few analysis tools and some time to study the top sites on several keywords. For me this became an obsession and after looking and looking and looking I began to see the patterns and notice the things that effected rankings.

    I make sites designed for the search engines, and create a seperate set of landing pages for my paid traffic campaigns. I get the best of both worlds, plus a whole host of free traffic from place like article directories and blog networks that also help my ranking.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Then
    The issue with MrMike is that his initial post has totally trash SEO. Which I think is a bad representation of what he is trying to proof.

    Most veteran marketers know that they don't rely on just one form of tool; it's a combination of various tools and methodologies.

    If MrMike presents his post properly in a more balanced view, he will not get people shooting at him with AK-47 + M-16.
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    • Profile picture of the author MrMike
      Originally Posted by Joseph Then View Post

      The issue with MrMike is that his initial post has totally trash SEO. Which I think is a bad representation of what he is trying to proof.

      Most veteran marketers know that they don't rely on just one form of tool; it's a combination of various tools and methodologies.

      If MrMike presents his post properly in a more balanced view, he will not get people shooting at him with AK-47 + M-16.
      I don't mind getting shot with an AK-47 or M16. It's nothing personal.
      New people get so caught up in SEO. I think they should think more in terms of Infomercials. Buy Traffic, Test, then load the boat. Be real, some are making money in SEO. Most look for a niche, try to dominate a low volume keyword, build back links, do all the SEO stuff. They work all kinds of hours and in most cases they make $3.30 in adsense. It's a waste of time and energy. Once you know how to buy traffic, You might work 3 hours a week.
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      • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
        MrMike, I understand you completely. I also understand why most of the other people don't. With the exception of the few people who live and breathe SEO, they believe that paying for something when you can get it for free is a failure and they don't want to admit to having mismanaged their time.

        They'll spend 3 months on SEO to develop a site with no guarantee of results when, instead, they could do 50 times as many traffic buys and tests in the same amount of time... tweaking a little for max ROI, building their list. They just don't see the TIME component of their ROI because they're thinking so linearly.

        Originally Posted by Joseph Then View Post

        That's because when you stop paying, your traffic stops.
        Certainly not. If you do some BASIC on, and off, page SEO, which the OP says is fine, that will still bring you in some traffic, but what the OP is saying is that a few traffic buys gets the machine going. Its your backend offers and affiliate program offers that keeps the traffic coming in. Your affiliates can be guided to post articles, create signature files, and so on... stuff that;s real basic and should be part of any marketing campaign.

        Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

        Not if you build a list with your traffic. And if your making a profit, why would you stop buying traffic?
        lol its funny how many people in internet marketing get suckered into ignoring basic proven business concepts. :confused:

        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        He doesn't agree with you...because you're wrong...it has nothing to do with what he is selling.

        I do SEO, PPC, Media Buys, blah blah blah

        And I can tell you from experience that so far SEO has by far given me the highest ROI of any sort of traffic we have ever had. Sure, with media buys and PPC you can put your money in, and start getting traffic right away, but as soon as the money is gone, so is your traffic.
        How foolish to say the OP is wrong and then you end up being the one who is wrong. It's because you are thinking like a machine: stop buying traffic, traffic stops.

        Well, that's not what happens. Did you forget about list building? Did you forget about an autoresponder on autopilot encouraging people to post on your blog, tell their friends, affiliate your product? Did you forget about having pre-written articles for affiliates with instructions on how to use a free article spinner? Did you forget about all those things that are BASIC to any marketing campaign?

        The answer is yes. You forgot. When you stop buying traffic, it might slow down a bit, but with the BASIC SEO which the OP never dismissed, and a simple, properly crafted affiliate program on auto-pilot, traffic should keep coming in on it's own... and if it slows to a certain point, you take your profits and do another traffic buy. If you do it right, it hits a critical mass point where it keeps coming in on its own with MAYBE a small traffic buy every 8-12 months.

        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        With SEO, I can pay someone for the next week to do the work- never look at the site again, and in many cases it is still spitting money at me 6 months to a year later.
        B.S. Even if you pay someone, the more qualified they are, the more they cost and you still have to be able to validate their work is effective and it STILL takes time and you'll STILL have competitors constantly trying to outrank you. And if you read carefully, the OP was telling fellow warriors that getting caught up in SEO was bad for THEM. He acknowledged BASIC SEO was ok and he never said you shouldn't PAY someone to do some SEO work for you. Outsourcing is the hallmark of an ENTREPRENEUR so congrats to you for thinking like one but DOING SEO is not.

        The OP is right on and it takes guts to suffer the slings and arrows of people who want to fight to remain poor just to get a poignant message out to the few who can appreciate it.

        Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

        Ummm...You go ahead Mr Mike and buy all the traffic you want. Just because you don't know how to perform SEO and profit from it doesn't mean the rest of us can't. On the flip side of things Google loves folks like you. They laugh themselves all the way to the bank with every single click that they sell you.
        How can you be good at SEO which requires great attention to detail when you didn't even read this full thread and see that MrMike said he wasn't referring to Adwords? Is that your advanced marketing mindset at work assuming the only way to buy traffic is through Adwords?

        Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

        I don't mind getting shot with an AK-47 or M16. It's nothing personal.
        New people get so caught up in SEO. I think they should think more in terms of Infomercials. Buy Traffic, Test, then load the boat. Be real, some are making money in SEO. Most look for a niche, try to dominate a low volume keyword, build back links, do all the SEO stuff. They work all kinds of hours and in most cases they make $3.30 in adsense. It's a waste of time and energy. Once you know how to buy traffic, You might work 3 hours a week.
        MrMike, your #1 mistake is that you gave this information out for free. When you don't charge for information of a revolutionary nature, it doesn't cost people anything to disagree with you. My recommendation is that you create an info product about making such traffic buys with a list of resources, a few test examples, some results.

        Sell it for $27 in a WSO so that even the naysayers who aren't making any money with their maniacal SEO efforts can afford to take a gander at it, so they can then see the bigger picture that they could be working traffic buys on 50 sites, and profiting handsomely, and with quick statistical feedback in the same amount of time it takes them to trick out 1 site with their "free" SEO...

        ...as if their time has no value. Who knows, maybe it doesn't.

        Thanks, MrMike,
        Eric
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post



          How foolish to say the OP is wrong and then you end up being the one who is wrong. It's because you are thinking like a machine: stop buying traffic, traffic stops.
          I'm thinking like a business person who takes things into account...like ROI.

          Here, I'll share one of my most profitable campaigns with you...and you do the same....deal?

          I set up a site in the reverse cell phone niche, To date I've spent $200 on content, and about $400 on SEO.

          The site has made me 80K+ and I've done nothing else to it.

          What's the ROI on that?

          We've got another site that has done similar numbers in the reverse email and criminal background niches...What's the ROI?

          Guess what I didn't have to do?

          I didn't have to pay for traffic, watch stats, arrange media buys, OR risk thousands of dollars of my own money to get results.

          Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

          Well, that's not what happens. Did you forget about list building? Did you forget about an autoresponder on autopilot encouraging people to post on your blog, tell their friends, affiliate your product? Did you forget about having pre-written articles for affiliates with instructions on how to use a free article spinner? Did you forget about all those things that are BASIC to any marketing campaign?
          Yeah, I forgot all about autoresponders, and affiliates...I'm a dumb ass...you got me....NOT.

          You don't think those same things are possible with SEO? lol and what exactly do affiliates have to do with someone paying for traffic...better yet, what does anything in the paragraph you wrote above have to do with paying for traffic or SEO?

          Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

          The answer is yes. You forgot. When you stop buying traffic, it might slow down a bit, but with the BASIC SEO which the OP never dismissed, and a simple, properly crafted affiliate program on auto-pilot, traffic should keep coming in on it's own... and if it slows to a certain point, you take your profits and do another traffic buy. If you do it right, it hits a critical mass point where it keeps coming in on its own with MAYBE a small traffic buy every 8-12 months.
          OK...Now you are just adding things to the OP...but, whatever it takes to make your point I guess...

          But, again - everything you just mentioned can also be done with pure SEO.

          Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

          B.S. Even if you pay someone, the more qualified they are, the more they cost and you still have to be able to validate their work is effective and it STILL takes time and you'll STILL have competitors constantly trying to outrank you. And if you read carefully, the OP was telling fellow warriors that getting caught up in SEO was bad for THEM. He acknowledged BASIC SEO was ok and he never said you shouldn't PAY someone to do some SEO work for you. Outsourcing is the hallmark of an ENTREPRENEUR so congrats to you for thinking like one but DOING SEO is not.
          lol...wut?

          Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

          The OP is right on and it takes guts to suffer the slings and arrows of people who want to fight to remain poor just to get a poignant message out to the few who can appreciate it.

          How can you be good at SEO which requires great attention to detail when you didn't even read this full thread and see that MrMike said he wasn't referring to Adwords? Is that your advanced marketing mindset at work assuming the only way to buy traffic is through Adwords?

          MrMike, your #1 mistake is that you gave this information out for free. When you don't charge for information of a revolutionary nature, it doesn't cost people anything to disagree with you. My recommendation is that you create an info product about making such traffic buys with a list of resources, a few test examples, some results.

          Sell it for $27 in a WSO so that even the naysayers who aren't making any money with their maniacal SEO efforts can afford to take a gander at it, so they can then see the bigger picture that they could be working traffic buys on 50 sites, and profiting handsomely, and with quick statistical feedback in the same amount of time it takes them to trick out 1 site with their "free" SEO...

          ...as if their time has no value. Who knows, maybe it doesn't.

          Thanks, MrMike,
          Eric
          Are you slow?

          You can get traffic by paying for it is revolutionary? lol wut lol

          /thread
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
            Originally Posted by Daniel McGonagle View Post

            Jeremy, 80k with a 600 dollar investment?

            What a friggin joke and a waste of effin time man

            Can't you get better ROI than that?

            Methinks MrMike was right yer wasting your time there
            Yeah, I definitely could have done better paying $1 a click or so on PPC or risking a couple grand on a media buy...but, what the hell

            Just for the record, I think that paid traffic, media buying specifically definitely has it's place.

            BUT

            I think you would have to be fairly idiotic to disregard organic traffic that you receive as a result of doing good SEO.
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            • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

              Yeah, I definitely could have done better paying $1 a click or so on PPC or risking a couple grand on a media buy...but, what the hell

              Just for the record, I think that paid traffic, media buying specifically definitely has it's place.

              BUT

              I think you would have to be fairly idiotic to disregard organic traffic that you receive as a result of doing good SEO.
              Jeremy I think they finally convinced me that seo is a waste of time. So how do I turn off all these page one rankings I have? Oh yeah. I can't. Arguing that seo is a waste of time is the same as arguing that cold calling doesn't work. They're just completely different advertising avenues. Next we'll be led to believe that direct mail and television advertisements are also a waste of time.

              Make sure to pm that keyword you're making $80k with. I'd like to dip my line in that pool too if you don't mind.
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            • Profile picture of the author MrMike
              Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

              Yeah, I definitely could have done better paying $1 a click or so on PPC or risking a couple grand on a media buy...but, what the hell

              Just for the record, I think that paid traffic, media buying specifically definitely has it's place.

              BUT

              I think you would have to be fairly idiotic to disregard organic traffic that you receive as a result of doing good SEO.
              Get off your high horse. Your misleading people into thinking its the norm to get $80k on a $600 investment. Or even that you will make any money by doing SEO at all. But of course you would defend it, your selling a back linking service and you have to create some credibility for all your cheap WSO's.
              The Fact is you have less control with your business with SEO than you have with buying traffic. Your business model is more fragile. SEO might be safer, but has less potential reward. I 'get a kick' out of some of your cronies who justify SEO by something you may have done. "Jeremy did it, it must be true".
              As far as ROI goes, of course it's a consideration but not as important as the amount of net cash you put in your pocket. You must also consider the amount of time it takes to get the cash, and the quality of life.
              People come on these forums with good intentions to try to make a living on the web, they are taught SEO, they work it for months with no results, get frustrated; come back and think about what they did wrong. Then they buy another WSO and repeat the cycle. Well they didn't do anything wrong, they were just shown a business model that has a low probability of making money.
              Sure some people can make money in SEO, I am not writing it off. But this game is all about getting traffic and creating business and quality of life.
              SEO has a lower probability for all of those.
              I didn't realize that SEO was a religion. Very interesting.

              So here is a free WSO for you. No hyped up sales letter, just the facts.
              Guaranteed to make you money.
              1. Create an SEO product.
              2. Sell it as a hyped up WSO.
              3. Pocket the Money
              4. Use the buyers list for Adswaps and upsells.
              5. Create More WSO's
              6. Rinse and repeat.

              This is fast, efficient and you don't have to waste your time doing SEO.
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              • Profile picture of the author Joseph Then
                Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

                Sure some people can make money in SEO, I am not writing it off.
                Oh? You're not writing it off?

                Your post title and the first post seems to totally writing off SEO:
                Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

                I get a kick out of people talking about SEO. To me it is a big waste of time. You are working on something with the hopes that Google may or may not like you. To me, you are limiting yourself and working hard for limited results. Why would you want to work hard on something that has a slim chance of making you "A LoT" of money. The only people making money on SEO, are the ones selling you their ebook.
                Have we convinced you that SEO has it's merit and not a waste of time? Perhaps next time try to be more objective in your post, instead of putting down the subject.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

                Get off your high horse. Your misleading people into thinking its the norm to get $80k on a $600 investment. Or even that you will make any money by doing SEO at all. But of course you would defend it, your selling a back linking service and you have to create some credibility for all your cheap WSO's.
                The Fact is you have less control with your business with SEO than you have with buying traffic. Your business model is more fragile. SEO might be safer, but has less potential reward. I 'get a kick' out of some of your cronies who justify SEO by something you may have done. "Jeremy did it, it must be true".
                As far as ROI goes, of course it's a consideration but not as important as the amount of net cash you put in your pocket. You must also consider the amount of time it takes to get the cash, and the quality of life.
                People come on these forums with good intentions to try to make a living on the web, they are taught SEO, they work it for months with no results, get frustrated; come back and think about what they did wrong. Then they buy another WSO and repeat the cycle. Well they didn't do anything wrong, they were just shown a business model that has a low probability of making money.
                Sure some people can make money in SEO, I am not writing it off. But this game is all about getting traffic and creating business and quality of life.
                SEO has a lower probability for all of those.
                I didn't realize that SEO was a religion. Very interesting.
                First of all....take some of your PPC money and invest in learning how to use paragraphs...they are your friend.

                And, high horse?

                I'm not the one that came in guns blazing pretty much belittling people for thinking that SEO was a valid traffic generation method - you did...remember?

                I've said more than one time in this thread that I think paid traffic has it's place, and even admitted to the fact that we use paid traffic. So, I wasn't and have never said that you shouldn't use paid traffic, but I'm not as dumb as some folks who will just slam a method all together, and then get upset when they are challenged...sound familiar?

                You make a good point about some people not having success with SEO, and those people should either pay someone else to do it for them or focus on another method of generating traffic, like PPC, or media buys if they can afford them.

                ....but, you act like with PPC everyone succeeds, what planet do you live in because it certainly isn't the same one as the rest of us. We've all read our share of "I blew through a couple hundred bucks with PPC and didn't make crap" threads.

                Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

                So here is a free WSO for you. No hyped up sales letter, just the facts.
                Guaranteed to make you money.
                1. Create an SEO product.
                2. Sell it as a hyped up WSO.
                3. Pocket the Money
                4. Use the buyers list for Adswaps and upsells.
                5. Create More WSO's
                6. Rinse and repeat.

                This is fast, efficient and you don't have to waste your time doing SEO.
                Here's another free WSO for you dude...no sales letter just the facts.

                How to influence people badly and have them thinking you're an idiot

                1. Come to a forum and make a post completely disregarding one method of traffic generation like you are a god.
                2. Lose the ensuing argument
                3. rinse and repeat

                Better luck next time.
                Signature
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          • Profile picture of the author Focused Action
            Jeremy - i would like to buy a book of just all of your warrior forum posts!!

            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            I'm thinking like a business person who takes things into account...like ROI.

            Here, I'll share one of my most profitable campaigns with you...and you do the same....deal?

            I set up a site in the reverse cell phone niche, To date I've spent $200 on content, and about $400 on SEO.

            The site has made me 80K+ and I've done nothing else to it.

            What's the ROI on that?

            We've got another site that has done similar numbers in the reverse email and criminal background niches...What's the ROI?

            Guess what I didn't have to do?

            I didn't have to pay for traffic, watch stats, arrange media buys, OR risk thousands of dollars of my own money to get results.



            Yeah, I forgot all about autoresponders, and affiliates...I'm a dumb ass...you got me....NOT.

            You don't think those same things are possible with SEO? lol and what exactly do affiliates have to do with someone paying for traffic...better yet, what does anything in the paragraph you wrote above have to do with paying for traffic or SEO?



            OK...Now you are just adding things to the OP...but, whatever it takes to make your point I guess...

            But, again - everything you just mentioned can also be done with pure SEO.



            lol...wut?



            Are you slow?

            You can get traffic by paying for it is revolutionary? lol wut lol

            /thread
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    I have never had success with paid traffic from a number of different sources. The only thing you get is "hits" and they are not targeted. Most of the so-called traffic sellers lie about the sources of their traffic. Most of it is bot traffic or paid surfers that could care less about your site. You can move up real fast in Alexa but so what that doesn't mean anything. SEO and other good marketing is the way to go.
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  • Profile picture of the author CJ.Online
    SEO is definitely not a waste of time. Yeah, it may take about 3 months to see results, but once you do (judging that you built enough backlinks the right way), you'll end up getting traffic that would have cost you hundreds if you were using PPC
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    • Profile picture of the author MrMike
      Originally Posted by CJ.Online View Post

      SEO is definitely not a waste of time. Yeah, it may take about 3 months to see results, but once you do (judging that you built enough backlinks the right way), you'll end up getting traffic that would have cost you hundreds if you were using PPC
      Your making my point. Wait 3 months for something that may or may not make you money. Plus how much is your time worth?
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  • Profile picture of the author MarketAbel
    Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

    My recommendation is learn how to buy traffic. If you don't have money to buy traffic, save up until you have enough. Once you mastered buying traffic and converting, you are free to do anything you want. Your money making potential is unlimited and you will have the freedom to enjoy it.
    1. Your recommendation (reworded): Learn to spend money you work to get for your traffic rather than work YOUR IM business on getting free SEO traffic.

    2. Once you master buying traffic you are free to do what it is you need to do to make that payment.

    3. Your money potential is limited to you continuing to afford to pay for more traffic.

    I think 'buying traffic' is another tool to use, but definitely would not say that SEO is not worth it.
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  • Profile picture of the author adesbarats
    I first started with Adwords and Adsense. Worked very hard at it and consider myself to be a pretty smart guy and quick study. Despite all my efforts I could not turn an acceptable ROI. I switched to SEO and I can tell you with cold hard numbers that my ROI via SEO efforts far outshines what I could achieve through PPC.

    That does not mean I will never go back to paid traffic. But right now SEO is working for me and once I feel I have saturated my efforts in that area then yes I will certainly re-evaluate other options such as Adwords / Adsense, Facebook, Stumble Upon, Video Ads, etc, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author MrMike
    The only time SEO is useful is for Local Business
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

      The only time SEO is useful is for Local Business
      How about times when the profit margins don't justify buying traffic, yet free traffic provides an opportunity?

      By proclaiming paid advertising is the only way to market is the same thing as saying no one can make money selling anything for less than a $20 profit margin, before advertising expenses.

      Or how about you are an actual content site, not selling anything to anyone? You know, the kind of site that's the real reason why people are on the Net so you can later market to them?
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  • Profile picture of the author colinph970
    I agree that SEO is VASTLY over-rated and the world is full of bull about it. Concentrate on quality and relevant content and the money will come!
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  • Profile picture of the author MrMike
    Eric / BizBoost... Thanks for the well thought out and intelligent reply and not because you agree with me. Because you "Get It". I have been marketing on the Internet since 1996 and the one thing I see is people putting too much energy into the wrong things. Traffic Buying is both Effective and Efficient. Plus who wants to work all day. If we meet, margaritas are on me.
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    • Profile picture of the author MrKenn71
      Either Way There are Advantages and Disadvantages To Using SEO and PPC as A Means of Getting Traffic, Do What is Comfortable For You.

      If Everyone Did PPC It Would Be a Real Big Mess, If Every One Did SEO It Would Be an Even Bigger Mess Than it is Now.

      Paid Traffic Can Reap You Tremendous Results in A Very Short Amount ot Time If Done Correctly, You Can Lose Your Shirt if You Do It Wrong. During The Christmas Season I may Spend Over $10,000 a Month on PPC Just To Make $15,000 a 50% Profit on My Investment
      SEO Can Pay Off Big in The Long Run if Done Correctly. If Your Site Earn $2000.00 a Month That's 24,000 a Year For Free

      Both Can Be Outsourced Therefore Freeing Up Your Time.

      You Can Make Money in SEO and PPC, Plus I Know PPC Marketers who Also Do SEO Since Their PPC Campaignes are on Auto Pilot.

      The Bottom Line is How Much Money You Make At The End Of The Day.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    Lol, one of the worst ideas.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelF
    Hey Mike.

    There are fortunes made both ways and both take time and or money to master. Both also take constant tweaking because all strategies stop working eventually when you are no longer the exception using them.

    For example adwords is slowing declining in the percentage of clicks they get from searchers, and users also get banner blindness on sites they visit regularly.

    The other thing you seem to miss is that although there are a limited number of spots on a google results page, that is only for one keyword. There are millions of keywords.
    Also google is not the only way to get free traffic.

    In the end, most people will be better of doing what they enjoy, as that will get you through the grunt work. Outsourcing works as well of course.
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    • Profile picture of the author MrMike
      Originally Posted by MichaelF View Post

      Hey Mike.

      There are fortunes made both ways and both take time and or money to master. Both also take constant tweaking because all strategies stop working eventually when you are no longer the exception using them.

      For example adwords is slowing declining in the percentage of clicks they get from searchers, and users also get banner blindness on sites they visit regularly.

      The other thing you seem to miss is that although there are a limited number of spots on a google results page, that is only for one keyword. There are millions of keywords.
      Also google is not the only way to get free traffic.

      In the end, most people will be better of doing what they enjoy, as that will get you through the grunt work. Outsourcing works as well of course.
      1. What is your definition of a "Fortune". The only people making a fortune in SEO are large Authority sites. Are you going to compete with them?

      2. If you read the thread I am not talking about adwords.
      As far as Banner Blindness. If you know about banner ad buys, then you know that you change up your banners frequently. My post wasn't based on theory, I actually practice what I preach. Banner blindness is not a good argument.

      3. Getting good page results for a large number of keywords is a pipe dream. Anyone telling you they get top 10 for multiple high traffic keywords are blowing smoke up your butt or trying to sell you a $9 dollar WSO.
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      • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
        Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

        1. What is your definition of a "Fortune". The only people making a fortune in SEO are large Authority sites. Are you going to compete with them?

        2. If you read the thread I am not talking about adwords.
        As far as Banner Blindness. If you know about banner ad buys, then you know that you change up your banners frequently. My post wasn't based on theory, I actually practice what I preach. Banner blindness is not a good argument.

        3. Getting good page results for a large number of keywords is a pipe dream. Anyone telling you they get top 10 for multiple high traffic keywords are blowing smoke up your butt or trying to sell you a $9 dollar WSO.
        You have a very narrow view of SEO.

        SEO isn't just building a bunch of backlinks and optimizing on-page factors.

        If this is what people believe is SEO then sure, I agree.

        What are your goals with SEO?

        Real SEO is about building your own virtual real estate empire. When your **** Berry CPA offers get shut down, where will the traffic buyers go? Adwords is for business that sell real products, that is the way it will be in the future.

        Real SEO gives you a big network and contacts with other webmasters. At some point, you may not even need to do anything else than link to a site from other of your own sites and there's your money.

        Backlinking =| SEO.
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        • Profile picture of the author Boris_yo
          I personally see driving paid traffic as a long term viable strategy which has future.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kaz Moriarty
    Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

    I get a kick out of people talking about SEO. To me it is a big waste of time.
    Interesting you say that MrMike. Recently I read one Internet Marketer who suggests that notwithstanding all the effort that many people expend on SEO, that with Google today it in fact accounts for no more than 5% of any successful result you are seeking.

    I was living in the past. I was stuck back in the time SEO accounted for 95%.

    taskline
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    Intelligent Internet Marketer
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    This thread is getting more and more humorous as the day continues. The fact the OP is claiming seo is a waste of time makes it very hard to take any of his other claims seriously. Bottom line is if you know what you're doing it doesn't take three months of work to get a site ranked onto page one. But hey...whatever floats your boat is what my grandmother used to tell me.
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    • Profile picture of the author MrMike
      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      This thread is getting more and more humorous as the day continues. The fact the OP is claiming seo is a waste of time makes it very hard to take any of his other claims seriously. Bottom line is if you know what you're doing it doesn't take three months of work to get a site ranked onto page one. But hey...whatever floats your boat is what my grandmother used to tell me.
      Hey Matt,

      I say this respectfully. Which one of my other claims are wrong? How much traffic can you guarantee by "knowing what you're doing" with SEO. Can you guarantee that you will get on page one and stay there for a keyword that will convert. How much time compared to buying traffic will it take? Is your time valuable? Just asking politely.
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      • Profile picture of the author Spot the Ball
        Payed traffic is something I definately want to look into at some point.

        I also however think its a good idea to learn the ropes of organic seo, I kind of see paid traffic as the "no limit poker" versus "limit poker" (organic).

        You can make a crap load of money fast but lose it even faster if youve not really studied it enough, and we all know the best way to learn is by experience and practice. Therefore organic is the way I,ll continue for now
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        • Profile picture of the author MrMike
          Originally Posted by Spot the Ball View Post

          Payed traffic is something I definately want to look into at some point.

          I also however think its a good idea to learn the ropes of organic seo, I kind of see paid traffic as the "no limit poker" versus "limit poker" (organic).

          You can make a crap load of money fast but lose it even faster if youve not really studied it enough, and we all know the best way to learn is by experience and practice. Therefore organic is the way I,ll continue for now
          Hey Spot,
          There is a common misconception that you can lose money fast. There is no one at the other end draining your bank account. You control how much you spend. People who sell their programs use that line of thinking or trigger to pitch their products to you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shaunman
    My recommendation is learn how to buy traffic. If you don't have money to buy traffic, save up until you have enough. Once you mastered buying traffic and converting, you are free to do anything you want. Your money making potential is unlimited and you will have the freedom to enjoy it.
    My problem is that it doesn't make sense. If I was selling a get rich quick product or something that I could potentially make a lot of money off of then paying $4 per click would make sense, since I have informational sites and make money off of affiliates $4 per click would mean I'd be spending a lot more on advertising then I am pulling in.

    It isn't a problem of being cheap, just realistic.

    If I do start creating a product, which I will eventually then I'll look more at buying traffic and getting affiliates.
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  • Profile picture of the author terryd
    Just one of the more absurd posts I have seen on the forum in a long time....

    Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

    I get a kick out of people talking about SEO. To me it is a big waste of time. You are working on something with the hopes that Google may or may not like you. To me, you are limiting yourself and working hard for limited results. Why would you want to work hard on something that has a slim chance of making you "A LoT" of money. The only people making money on SEO, are the ones selling you their ebook. I agree that some site optimization is necessary, but you shouldn't rely on it to bring you tons of traffic.

    My recommendation is learn how to buy traffic. If you don't have money to buy traffic, save up until you have enough. Once you mastered buying traffic and converting, you are free to do anything you want. Your money making potential is unlimited and you will have the freedom to enjoy it.
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    • Profile picture of the author terryd
      I still disagree with his statement and if you actually break it down he is wrong on so many levels....

      Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

      I get a kick out of people talking about SEO. To me it is a big waste of time.
      To me it's a waste of time paying for traffic when I can generate enough traffic for free with basic SEO.

      Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

      To me, you are limiting yourself and working hard for limited results. Why would you want to work hard on something that has a slim chance of making you "A LoT" of money.
      Tell that to the thousands of PPC marketers that have lost money utilizing PPC through either the get rich quick mentallity or just poor judgement.

      Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

      The only people making money on SEO, are the ones selling you their ebook.
      Absolute crap.....that's like saying that the only ones making money via PPC are the ones writing the "how to" guides

      Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

      My recommendation is learn how to buy traffic. If you don't have money to buy traffic, save up until you have enough. Once you mastered buying traffic and converting, you are free to do anything you want.
      Great I save up money only to blow it on my first PPC campaign or media buy but it's common knowledge that your first campaign will always make you money.......yeah right!!.....the truth is that you can never master buying traffic on your first try can you?...it takes time, experience and money to get to the level where you can make money consistantly.....

      Originally Posted by Daniel McGonagle View Post

      In the meantime, I suggest this not be a SEO vs PPC thread or whatever, just keep your mind and options open because media buys work awesome if you know what you're doing (hmmm, just like with SEO)

      Totally agree, I just hope that newbies who read this thread don't take MrMike seriously and start throwing money down the tubes with PPC or Media buys because aparently SEO is a waste of time.....


      Originally Posted by Daniel McGonagle View Post

      It's not absurd at all that SEO is a wate of time.

      It is for a LOT of people.

      Just like doing 10k media buys is a waste of time

      for a lot of people.

      MRMIKE is coming on a little strong here with his "I got it all figured out" mentality", but what is it about SE0 that we love doing?

      High rankings to "control" traffic...

      What do many smart SEO-ers do, the ones who aren't wasting their time or money?

      They study their KWs, see which ones are converting terms, then rank for those terms, not just the high traffic terms.

      MrMike is a little closed minded here because he's found something that works for him, so let him wallow in this...

      In the meantime, I suggest this not be a SEO vs PPC thread or whatever, just keep your mind and options open because media buys work awesome if you know what you're doing (hmmm, just like with SEO)
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  • Profile picture of the author SEO4Life
    I make decent money with SEO and I know when I CAN and CAN'T rank for a term. You need to go after keywords that are actually possible is the thing. Dont go after viagra expecting to rank...

    Generally buying traffic is generally a bad idea so idk why you are saying to focus on that.
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  • Profile picture of the author techinik
    Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

    I get a kick out of people talking about SEO. To me it is a big waste of time. You are working on something with the hopes that Google may or may not like you. To me, you are limiting yourself and working hard for limited results. Why would you want to work hard on something that has a slim chance of making you "A LoT" of money. The only people making money on SEO, are the ones selling you their ebook. I agree that some site optimization is necessary, but you shouldn't rely on it to bring you tons of traffic.

    My recommendation is learn how to buy traffic. If you don't have money to buy traffic, save up until you have enough. Once you mastered buying traffic and converting, you are free to do anything you want. Your money making potential is unlimited and you will have the freedom to enjoy it.
    I disagree with you on this. Although seo is tough way to go than ppc but still its power cannot be underestimated.
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  • Profile picture of the author nettech
    What if you don't have the money to pay for traffic? That's one of the reasons why a lot of newbies and people get into internet marketing as it doesn't require a big outlay. If you have the money then great, if not then SEO offers the best way to make money online hence why so many people are in the game.

    By the way, no offence, but I think what you've written about SEO is a complete load of rubbish. Just imagine if I wanted to buy traffic for terms in the finance industry, it'd cost me a serious amount of cash, in time I know that I could rank organically for these terms and make money......
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonas Iri
    What the hell... Are you people still losing time on this topic? Go out there and make some money, for God's sake. Do SEO, do PPC, do gambling, whatever. Just don't waste your precious time in useless discussions.

    MrMike has his convictions, and that's good. Everyone has. This does not mean that tomorrow I'll stop making money from SEO if he says it's a waste of time.
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  • Profile picture of the author cpace32
    SEO is not "free", as others have brought up, everything has a cost. SEO takes time and sometimes money, and buying traffic certainly takes money.

    My own experiences have been that it has been more effective to launch a SEO campaign, invest time into it, and then reap the rewards.

    SEO takes constant effort though, so it is very similar to "buying traffic" in that once the SEO stops, so does the traffic.
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  • Profile picture of the author Pedro Ferreira
    SEO does work... you just don't like to work.
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  • Profile picture of the author Wakunahum
    So what's the difference from buying traffic or buying SEO services that result in traffic?

    In the end you are exchanging cash for visitors through BOTH techniques.

    It seems to be quite a bit the same to me.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      I get a kick out of people who seem to think that using SEO for organic traffic and buying traffic are mutually exclusive. Oh, and the phrase "buying traffic" covers a whole lot more ground than "PPC using Adwords".

      As Jeremy has said multiple times, both forms of advertising have their place.

      I forget who mentioned things like co-registration as a third method, but I see those things as simply another form of CPA advertising.

      I'd say more, but I'd be repeating stuff that's already been said...
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      • Profile picture of the author Crew Chief
        Jeremy, I think you need to start a thread with the title in bold as the subject! ROTFLMAO

        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post


        Here's another free WSO for you dude...no sales letter just the facts.

        How to influence people badly and have them thinking you're an idiot

        1. Come to a forum and make a post completely disregarding one method of traffic generation like you are a god.
        2. Lose the ensuing argument
        3. rinse and repeat

        Better luck next time.
        Every NEW member to the WF needs to read this, grasp it and comprehend it to the ninth degree.

        Maybe then, they will refrain from coming in pontificating these dogmatic arguments that can't hold a smidgen of water.

        MrMike, MrMike, MrMike...

        [Shaking head wondering why he even tried to sell this 1985 Yugo GV]

        Giles, the Crew Chief
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  • Profile picture of the author bay37
    Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

    I get a kick out of people talking about SEO. To me it is a big waste of time.
    You obviously don't know your SEO.

    You know what's a "big waste of time"? Starting threads like this on a discussion boards dedicated to "Adsense/ PPC / SEO".
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    • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
      PART 1 -

      Alright, plenty of ground to cover here. It's fascinating, however, how many people act like pouty little children and take the OP's accurate statement about SEO as a personal attack on what amounts to a waste of their time and energy. And, it's obvious most of them either didn't read his post, or didn't comprehend it.

      Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

      Eric / BizBoost... Thanks for the well thought out and intelligent reply and not because you agree with me. Because you "Get It". I have been marketing on the Internet since 1996 and the one thing I see is people putting too much energy into the wrong things. Traffic Buying is both Effective and Efficient. Plus who wants to work all day. If we meet, margaritas are on me.
      You're absolutely right, but you have to realize you're saying this in front of a bunch of people who have invested tremendous time and energy into a less effective, less efficient method. As a result, they've temporarily accepted a substitute payoff in the "cameraderie" of the SEO "network" (as one respondent puts it) and, as you aptly noted, it's become like a religion to them, more important to defend than to rigorously examine.

      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      This thread is getting more and more humorous as the day continues. The fact the OP is claiming seo is a waste of time makes it very hard to take any of his other claims seriously. Bottom line is if you know what you're doing it doesn't take three months of work to get a site ranked onto page one. But hey...whatever floats your boat is what my grandmother used to tell me.
      Matt, try not to let your inability to comprehend the OP make you think you're intellectually superior. You fail to have anything serious to add but you have plenty of time and energy to ridicule him... that, to me, proves the OP right. You don't value your time and energy so SEO is perfect for you.

      Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

      Hey Spot,
      There is a common misconception that you can lose money fast. There is no one at the other end draining your bank account. You control how much you spend. People who sell their programs use that line of thinking or trigger to pitch their products to you.
      That's the worst thing you can do is come to a marketing forum and show people what goes on behind behind the curtains. Just between you and me, most people who call themselves marketers aren't really marketers. They're consumers wearing marketers clothes. As such, they still think like consumers, and fight for their ignorance when someone comes along with an idea too revolutionary for them to sincerely analyze. Some people just aren't ready for greater freedom. It scares them.

      Originally Posted by Daniel McGonagle View Post

      It's not absurd at all that SEO is a wate of time.

      It is for a LOT of people.

      Just like doing 10k media buys is a waste of time

      for a lot of people.
      That logic is terribly flawed. Knitting is a waste of time for some people, just as crocheting is a waste of time for others. If you know how to Media buys, you can do them quickly, get feedback quickly, adjust quickly, make another buy quickly. When you do SEO, you get caught up tweaking minutiae on 100s of sites until your eyeballs are bleeding and you have chairsores on your ass cheeks... oh yeah, and attending those all-important SEO conventions. Then, at its convenience, Google changes its algorithm, and 90% of your work is wiped out. Of course, we must remember, the OP never said all SEO is useless... he merely suggested that if you're trying to make your money DOING SEO, you're better off doing it by writing a book about it and selling it in a WSO (hint: a WSO is a kind of... TRAFFIC BUY)

      Originally Posted by Daniel McGonagle View Post

      In the meantime, I suggest this not be a SEO vs PPC thread or whatever, just keep your mind and options open because media buys work awesome if you know what you're doing (hmmm, just like with SEO)
      Dan, the OP didn't say SEO didn't work. He said DOING it is a waste of your time. He said traffic buys have quicker results, make you more money faster and allow you greater freedom.

      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      I'm thinking like a business person who takes things into account...like ROI.
      Then take your "alleged" lucky beginning with your $600-into-$80k site and get out of business fast before you lose everything.

      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      Here, I'll share one of my most profitable campaigns with you...and you do the same....deal?
      And cast pearls before swine? Right.

      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      I set up a site in the reverse cell phone niche, To date I've spent $200 on content, and about $400 on SEO.

      The site has made me 80K+ and I've done nothing else to it.

      What's the ROI on that?
      You really are slow to get things but that's ok, I'm a patient guy. Although it's so simple, that, for your sake, I want to believe you are just pretending to not get it. Anyways, spending $600 to get $80k, even if it is doubtful that you really did that, is not the norm. Thankfully, MrMike pointed this out. But, again, you just seem to have trouble comprehending the simplicity of things. I know because I've watched you fail to grasp simple concepts expressed elsewhere in favor of expressing some know-it-all gene buried in your psyche. The point you missed (again) is that MrMike wasn't saying that SEO doesn't work. He said it's a waste of your time.

      But, let me take you by the hand and help you comprehend a really profound insight.... IF YOU PAID $400 FOR SEO THEN YOU AGREED, AS WELL, THAT IT WAS A WASTE OF TIME. He didn't mean PAYING FOR SEO was a waste of time because paying for it only takes a few minutes. In the context of TRAFFIC BUYS, paying for SEO is a different form of traffic buy. His main point is that, as an entrepreneur, you can make a way better use of your time with traffic buys then you can sitting in dirty chair 23 hours per day tweaking all your lovely sites as Google ultimately decides whether to change its algorithm on you every 6-8 months.

      Buying SEO is not DOING SEO. DOING SEO is a waste of time compared to what you can accomplish with traffic buys. Buying SEO, if the price is right, is fine. The OP never said it wasn't.

      Sorry if I seem repetetive. I see a need for saying everything 3 different ways for you.

      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      We've got another site that has done similar numbers in the reverse email and criminal background niches...What's the ROI?

      Guess what I didn't have to do?

      I didn't have to pay for traffic, watch stats, arrange media buys, OR risk thousands of dollars of my own money to get results.
      It's not a risk if you know what you're doing. But doing SEO IS a risk, even if you know what you're doing, and it takes a lot of time. Multiply that times 100 sites and you're a fool. Your problem is that, by your very admission, you're in agreement with the OP... you PAY for your SEO. As long as the person comes through, guess what? That qualifies as a traffic buy. It's not the quickest traffic buy, but it isn't a waste of your time which is all the OP cautioned about. So, you're not an intellect, Chumley, you're just a guy who likes to seem as if he knows what he's talking about when he doesn't.

      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      Yeah, I forgot all about autoresponders, and affiliates...I'm a dumb ass...you got me....NOT.
      That's how you keep the post-traffic-buy traffic going. At this point, I doubt everything you have to say. We're trying to talk rationally here and you're making up fantasy case examples that actually prove the OP's point.

      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      You don't think those same things are possible with SEO? lol and what exactly do affiliates have to do with someone paying for traffic...better yet, what does anything in the paragraph you wrote above have to do with paying for traffic or SEO?
      Poor guy, what I'd explained is that any decent campaign should have a backend, plus an affiliate program. When you do media buys, you earn money on the backend, and your autoresponder program, on autopilot, should encourage people to affiliate your product. You know all that but you forgot about that when you, and others, were suggesting that traffic ends when traffic buys stop. Not so. Traffic buys are like the first jolt to Frankenstein... they get the ball rolling so you dont' have to rely solely on traffic buys.

      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      You can get traffic by paying for it is revolutionary? lol wut lol
      It is revolutionary to come out and say that "doing SEO is a waste of time."

      Listen, Jeremy, maybe somebody, somewhere in this world, thinks you're a good guy, but you're just causing trouble here. I've watched you argue incessantly with people, like a jr high schooler, and then run off to the mods when you're denied your victory lap. In this case, you're completely ignoring that the OP never said paying an SEO guy is a waste of time. A waste of time would constitute DOING SEO. In case you hadn't noticed, WF is a forum for internet marketers that happens to have an SEO section... it's not an SEO forum that happens to have a section for marketing tips. We're marketers, not SEO wonks. Because, monetarily, you can accomplish in a fraction of the time what it would take you to sit on your arse for months tweaking a half dozen websites, spying on your competition, then praying Google doesn't ream you a new bunghole.

      (continued)
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

        Listen, Jeremy, maybe somebody, somewhere in this world, thinks you're a good guy, but you're just causing trouble here. I've watched you argue incessantly with people, like a jr high schooler, and then run off to the mods when you're denied your victory lap. In this case, you're completely ignoring that the OP never said paying an SEO guy is a waste of time. A waste of time would constitute DOING SEO. In case you hadn't noticed, WF is a forum for internet marketers that happens to have an SEO section... it's not an SEO forum that happens to have a section for marketing tips. We're marketers, not SEO wonks. Because, monetarily, you can accomplish in a fraction of the time what it would take you to sit on your arse for months tweaking a half dozen websites, spying on your competition, then praying Google doesn't ream you a new bunghole.

        (continued)
        Eric, it's apparent your a tad "slow" and I'm sure the short-bus is glad to have you and all, but you bore me...plain and simple, so I'm going to explain this nice and slow to you...deal?

        The OP said that "seo is a waste of time" - plain and simple - Regardless of what you TRY TO ADD to the OP your point and his are WRONG on a number of levels.

        Nobody here said that buying traffic is bad - Hell, Ive said at least twice in this thread that I BUY TRAFFIC...AND LOTS OF IT...others have said the same thing - Try and save yourself some embarrassment and actually read the thread...If you have trouble with the big words, give me a call and I will read it to you.

        A recap for you...

        You say that SEO is a waste of time

        I say I've made more money with SEO than I can spend

        Whose right?
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post


        Poor guy, what I'd explained is that any decent campaign should have a backend, plus an affiliate program. When you do media buys, you earn money on the backend, and your autoresponder program, on autopilot, should encourage people to affiliate your product. You know all that but you forgot about that when you, and others, were suggesting that traffic ends when traffic buys stop. Not so. Traffic buys are like the first jolt to Frankenstein... they get the ball rolling so you dont' have to rely solely on traffic buys.
        AND

        Again, everything you just described is utilized and done by anyone using SEO that also understand marketing...hurr durr
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      • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
        Originally Posted by SEO4Life View Post

        I make decent money with SEO and I know when I CAN and CAN'T rank for a term. You need to go after keywords that are actually possible is the thing. Dont go after viagra expecting to rank...



        Generally buying traffic is generally a bad idea so idk why you are saying to focus on that.
        For the vast majority of people:
        1. It takes time to rank for worthy keyword phrases;
        2. They have to stay on top of the competition who are actively developing their sites and/or spying on their competition;
        3. are at the mercy of Google who's been known to wipe out a lot of businesses with one simple algorithm change
        4. Multiply this times dozens, if not 100s of mini-sites
        You might be ok with all that. You might not enjoy the beach, or spending time with a significant other, or kids, or aging parents. You might love the feeling of your butt cheeks flattening out over time, or seeing Matt Cutts cute chubby cheeks and handsome moustache every time you have to figure out why your sites plumetted in the ratings. Maybe you love flying through lightning storms into sanctuary cities just so you can spend a couple of days hanging with other people who don't know the value of their time.

        If you enjoy doing SEO, then great! Go do it! But don't pretend, for even one second, that it's not a waste of time compared to a well-done traffic buy. Isn't "outsourcing" all the rage these days? Do you see guys like John Reese sitting around in their underwear tweaking 100s of sites and wrestling with Google changes?

        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        Yeah, I definitely could have done better paying $1 a click or so on PPC or risking a couple grand on a media buy...but, what the hell

        Just for the record, I think that paid traffic, media buying specifically definitely has it's place.

        BUT

        I think you would have to be fairly idiotic to disregard organic traffic that you receive as a result of doing good SEO.
        Nope, no fairly idiotic people on this side of the equation. The only fairly idiotic thinking I see comes from someone who can neither read, nor comprehend, what the OP said and is trying to present himself as a know-it-all in spite of his ill comprehension. Why must you be told a dozen times that the OP never said SEO was useless. He agreed that doing basic SEO was useful but, he said that doing it is a *waste of time*... here' let's do some basic math:

        SCENARIO 1: Traffic Buy
        $500 Traffic Buy = $5000k return;
        Time spent buying traffic = 2 minutes;
        Time to make $5k = varies, 1-10 days (while you're at the beach)
        Rinse, Repeat

        SCENARIO 2: Doing SEO
        $??? for tools like Marketing Samurai
        $???/mo for memberships like SEOBook, etc
        (if you think DOING SEO is really free, I have some swamp land in Florida that you're gonna love!)

        Time spent DOING SEO = months, and months...
        But wait! Google doesn't care as much about X anymore (let's say meta tags) they have these things now called SNIPPETS... quick! rush on over here! You've got some reading to do or your sites will plummet and/or get overtaken by your competition!

        "Anatomy of a Google Snippet"
        Anatomy Of A Google Snippet

        Then tell your friends, and family, that you can't make it to the family reunion, or their school play, because you have to go tweak the 300 sites you just spent the last 5 years perfecting so you can get your snippets done right and make Matt Cutts and Google happy (until their next issue)

        Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

        Jeremy I think they finally convinced me that seo is a waste of time. So how do I turn off all these page one rankings I have? Oh yeah. I can't. Arguing that seo is a waste of time is the same as arguing that cold calling doesn't work. They're just completely different advertising avenues. Next we'll be led to believe that direct mail and television advertisements are also a waste of time.

        Make sure to pm that keyword you're making $80k with. I'd like to dip my line in that pool too if you don't mind.
        They say bad news comes in THREES, so I can't wait to see who the third person is, but let's look at it this way... if you like DOING SEO and can make a profit off of it, congratulations. The OP never said SEO was useless. But, if you're new to marketing, or are WONDERING if SEO is something you should get involved with, then the OP is right... doing SEO is a waste of time. You apparently get some joy out of it so that makes up for the reduced ROI you experience....
        "oooh, look at me, everybody! I ranked #1 for angus beef jerky!!!!"
        Just being able to say that must feel so good as to offset all the money going out the window when you could have done 50 traffic buys in the same amount of time it took you to rank for porcelain doll slippers.

        Originally Posted by techinik View Post

        I disagree with you on this. Although seo is tough way to go than ppc but still its power cannot be underestimated.
        The OP didn't limit traffic buys to any one venue. But, SEO's power was not underestimated. But it's longevity is ALWAYS uncertain. And compared to the power of a good traffic buy, it doesn't hold a candle. HOWEVER, if it makes you FEEL good to do SEO... if it fits your psyche, like maybe you're agoraphobic and don't know it, then SEO could be the perfect fit for you.

        But let's not pretend it has anything to do with ROI, longevity, or "rinse, repeat"

        Originally Posted by nettech View Post

        What if you don't have the money to pay for traffic? That's one of the reasons why a lot of newbies and people get into internet marketing as it doesn't require a big outlay. If you have the money then great, if not then SEO offers the best way to make money online hence why so many people are in the game.

        By the way, no offence, but I think what you've written about SEO is a complete load of rubbish. Just imagine if I wanted to buy traffic for terms in the finance industry, it'd cost me a serious amount of cash, in time I know that I could rank organically for these terms and make money......
        No offense, but your example is self-serving. Who said anything about a traffic buy in "finance industry"... there's plenty of other profitable areas in which to make a traffic buy that don't require you to sit at a computer month after month tweaking 100s of sites at the mercy of Google, while other people are constantly spying on you and trying to outrank you, as well.

        What he wrote about doing SEO was not only not rubbish, it's about as close to REAL gold as you can get on a marketing forum which is why it's being so ill-received... most people are INDOCTRINATED into the club-like atmosphere and don't give a squat about rigorous analysis. In this case, they love the idea that doing SEO "doesn't cost me anything" (while forgetting about analysis tools, or monthly memberships that their competitors are using), and ignore the time-honored business concept of ROI in which TIME has value.

        Originally Posted by Jonas Iri View Post

        What the hell... Are you people still losing time on this topic? Go out there and make some money, for God's sake. Do SEO, do PPC, do gambling, whatever. Just don't waste your precious time in useless discussions.

        MrMike has his convictions, and that's good. Everyone has. This does not mean that tomorrow I'll stop making money from SEO if he says it's a waste of time.
        It just means your ROI will be severely restrained because you don't value your time. Did it occur to you that people, like MrMike, ARE making money while they are reading this thread? Because he did a traffic buy and didn't have to sit at his computer analyzing whether "beef bouillon cubes" was more profitable than "chicken bouillon cubes."

        What makes you think some of us aren't making money now? Because you DO SEO, and so your mindset is one of having to run back to your computer to make some money, while I'm typing this from 1 of the 4 beaches surrounding my pad.

        Originally Posted by MrMike View Post

        The Fact is you have less control with your business with SEO than you have with buying traffic. Your business model is more fragile. SEO might be safer, but has less potential reward. I 'get a kick' out of some of your cronies who justify SEO by something you may have done. "Jeremy did it, it must be true".

        As far as ROI goes, of course it's a consideration but not as important as the amount of net cash you put in your pocket. You must also consider the amount of time it takes to get the cash, and the quality of life.

        People come on these forums with good intentions to try to make a living on the web, they are taught SEO, they work it for months with no results, get frustrated; come back and think about what they did wrong. Then they buy another WSO and repeat the cycle. Well they didn't do anything wrong, they were just shown a business model that has a low probability of making money.
        MrMike, why are you bothering? If it's to convince the vulnerable passers-by who might get roped into DOING SEO, then hat's off, but you're not going to convince MR $600-to-$80k who thinks his one alleged lottery win is the standard.

        Originally Posted by Joseph Then View Post

        Oh? You're not writing it off?

        Your post title and the first post seems to totally writing off SEO:

        Have we convinced you that SEO has it's merit and not a waste of time? Perhaps next time try to be more objective in your post, instead of putting down the subject.
        Basic SEO is not a waste of time. It takes 10 minutes tops. Off-page SEO, another 10-15 minutes. Paying someone to do SEO for you, could have some merit.

        DOING SEO... BIG WASTE OF TIME.

        Why are you having trouble understanding the OP, Joseph?

        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        First of all....take some of your PPC money and invest in learning how to use paragraphs...they are your friend.
        Unnecessary, yet it betrays why you're really here which has nothing to do with SEO and/or marketing knowledge. It's to overcompensate for the days when you were picked on in school. Now, you really should stop taking potshots at the OP who has been very cordial to you. I'd think a guy who turned $600 into $80k would have something better to do.

        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        And, high horse?

        I'm not the one that came in guns blazing pretty much belittling people for thinking that SEO was a valid traffic generation method - you did...remember?
        Oh, no, Mr $600-to-$80k has no high horse. No wayyyy.

        Anyways, I didn't see the OP belittling people. Sounded to me as if he was just being frank in a way that'd save newcomers from going down a fiscally disastrous trail. It's obvious he touched a nerve but that's not because he did anything wrong and so it doesn't warrant your snottiness, nor the rude replies by others who are, obviously, fanatical about SEO.

        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        I've said more than one time in this thread that I think paid traffic has it's place, and even admitted to the fact that we use paid traffic. So, I wasn't and have never said that you shouldn't use paid traffic, but I'm not as dumb as some folks who will just slam a method all together, and then get upset when they are challenged...sound familiar?
        Yes, sounds like you. You can't stand being challenged. Believe me, I've got the countdown clock running to see how long it takes before you go running to the moderators.

        Anyways, it should not take a degree in rocket science to see that this thread was never about whether or not someone could make a handsome living doing SEO... it was, as clear as day, that basic SEO was ok but that for best net returns, control and stability, a proper traffic buy outranks DOING proper SEO by miles.... so much that it makes DOING SEO a waste of time (for those who value their time, that is).

        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        You make a good point about some people not having success with SEO, and those people should either pay someone else to do it for them or focus on another method of generating traffic, like PPC, or media buys if they can afford them.

        ....but, you act like with PPC everyone succeeds, what planet do you live in because it certainly isn't the same one as the rest of us. We've all read our share of "I blew through a couple hundred bucks with PPC and didn't make crap" threads.
        Like I said, the OP should write a book on the subject and do a WSO. But PPC isn't the only traffic buy. Brian Garvin was one of the most famous affiliates a while back and he told me, personally, that the way he blew away all the gurus with the big lists is he would buy ads in ezines with large readerships, test/track the ones that converted, and rebuy in those. He continually won many affiliate contests.

        The reason he contacted me, by the way, was because I was the number one affiliate on one of his products to the tune of 1000s of dollars.

        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        Here's another free WSO for you dude...no sales letter just the facts.

        How to influence people badly and have them thinking you're an idiot

        1. Come to a forum and make a post completely disregarding one method of traffic generation like you are a god.
        2. Lose the ensuing argument
        3. rinse and repeat

        Better luck next time.
        He hasn't lost the argument. What are you in 5th grade? He didn't disregard a method of traffic generation. It's easy to understand that he was saying that to focus on DOING IT was a waste of time. If you want to take advantage of other people who don't value their time as much, and pay them to do some SEO for you, he never said you shouldn't do that. It was clear he was trying to warn off people who don't KNOW yet. It should have never been misconstrued as trying to pry SEO out of SEO geeks' "cold, dead, hands." (RIP Charlton Heston).

        Anyone with a LICK of business education would not only NEVER do SEO themselves but they would also NEVER recommend DOING SEO to anyone about whom they cared. Now, if they were trying to sell an SEO book to the faceless masses, that might be a different story, but MrMike, who obviously understands business, already kindly shared that suggestion with you.

        Enough of you, Jeremy, you've shown you're not here to understand. You're here to play schoolyard bully.

        Originally Posted by Pedro Ferreira View Post

        SEO does work... you just don't like to work.
        SEO works, but traffic buys work better and give you more control and stability. You just don't like to think.

        Originally Posted by Wakunahum View Post

        So what's the difference from buying traffic or buying SEO services that result in traffic?

        In the end you are exchanging cash for visitors through BOTH techniques.

        It seems to be quite a bit the same to me.
        Waku, you're almost there, buddy. Paying for SEO services = a traffic buy. One that requires a little more forethought and knowledge of the SEO geek's reputation, but it amounts to a traffic buy, nonetheless.

        The guy doing the SEO, at that point, is not a work-at-home guy tweaking his own sites (as implied by the comparison to a traffic buy). That SEO guy is providing a SERVICE to the public. If Google stomps his customers sites, then he can charge them to go in and update their SEO. If he's doing his own sites, then he just got hammered and won't get paid. His best potential is maybe he'll get his sites to start earning what they once did.

        Hence, DOING SEO for your sites, versus media/traffic buys, is a waste of time.

        Originally Posted by JackPowers View Post

        Real SEO is about building your own virtual real estate empire. When your **** Berry CPA offers get shut down, where will the traffic buyers go? Adwords is for business that sell real products, that is the way it will be in the future.

        Real SEO gives you a big network and contacts with other webmasters. At some point, you may not even need to do anything else than link to a site from other of your own sites and there's your money.

        Backlinking =| SEO.
        Sounds as if you're more into the joy of the lifestyle of SEO. If you want financial freedom, then you don't want to be getting hooked up with other webmasters... just a few others doing well in your arena for mutual JV's is sufficient, but it sounds as if you're more into the whole sub-culture and belonging thing. So, what if you build a little empire of 300 sites and they each bring you $20-$30/month average. Then Google burps and you have to run around frantically trying to figure out what actually happened, and fix everything. It's like an earthquake, or a flood, hitting a village.

        What if, instead, you could do 1 traffic buy per month and get the same $6k-$10k? What if you could hire a virtual assistant, or some other way, to set it up on auto-pilot? If you like SEO conventions, great. If all your SEO gives you something to talk about at the dinner table so you feel accomplished to your family, great. But, I'd rather be able to sit at any dinner table I want, when I want, regardless of what Google does and without having 100k other SEO wonks trying to overrun me 24/7/365.

        Originally Posted by Boris_yo View Post

        I personally see driving paid traffic as a long term viable strategy which has future.
        Originally Posted by bay37 View Post

        You obviously don't know your SEO.

        You know what's a "big waste of time"? Starting threads like this on a discussion boards dedicated to "Adsense/ PPC / SEO".
        But stopping by to do nothing more than say it's a waste of time wasn't?

        This is the logic we're up against here, people. A kind of childish defense of a traffic generation method which, for most people, will only amount to a black cash-sucking hole and a lot of running around to put out fires while under constant attack from competitors.

        Sound like a good use of your time?
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          All hail BizBoost - King of know it alls lol

          You go dude, keep responding with drivel and before long everyone will realize just how mighty you are.

          ...as for me, I'm just going to point and laugh...

          that is all

          P.S. Find a moderator that says I've run to them for anything, then get back to me, liar.
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          • Profile picture of the author bay37
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            that is all
            Heh Jeremy. You should have done this a loooong time ago. And no, I won't be reading through this mess, lol. wtf... :p
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            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
              Originally Posted by bay37 View Post

              Heh Jeremy. You should have done this a loooong time ago. And no, I won't be reading through this mess, lol. wtf... :p
              Dude, read through some of his other posts on the forum, and you will soon realize that he is NEVER-EVER wrong...everyone can gain alot from following him around....after all, he is king.

              He's trying to add to the OP things that even the OP hasn't brought up in his subsequent replies...if the OP had said anything more than SEO is a waste of time this would be a different conversation...MAYBE.

              Good thing he has Eric here to fill in the blanks on what he was really trying to say.
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              • Profile picture of the author bay37
                Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                Dude, read through some of his other posts on the forum, and you will soon realize that he is NEVER-EVER wrong...
                I might just do that.

                EDIT: well that was a total waste of time. Oh well.

                Good thing he has Eric here to fill in the blanks on what he was really trying to say.
                I remember you getting into an argument with someone just like that not two weeks ago...

                My time machine works. F yeah.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                  Originally Posted by bay37 View Post




                  I remember you getting into an argument with someone just like that not two weeks ago...

                  My time machine works. F yeah.
                  Yeah, what the hell...If you can't argue based on the original points...Just make original points up later lol....COOL IDEA!

                  The OP had a 2 paragraph warning about SEO, and in Erics' infinite imagination, he has turned that into a 400 page marketing manual full of hypotheticals, what-if's and I told you so's - He's the man for sure.
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                • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  All hail BizBoost - King of know it alls lol

                  You go dude, keep responding with drivel and before long everyone will realize just how mighty you are.

                  ...as for me, I'm just going to point and laugh...

                  that is all

                  P.S. Find a moderator that says I've run to them for anything, then get back to me, liar.
                  You threatened to run to Alan in a previous exchange. My how we forget, huh? Anyways, if you can't respond to specifics, that's ok, but why go on with nothing but snottiness? Because, as I'd pointed out, that's why you're really in this thread. You came out and said the OP was wrong, when you really just didn't comprehend what he'd said. I did, and said you were wrong, and you've been kind of whining about it ever since.

                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  Dude, read through some of his other posts on the forum, and you will soon realize that he is NEVER-EVER wrong...everyone can gain alot from following him around....after all, he is king.
                  Jeremiah, it's not that I'm never ever wrong. It's that I only jump in where I know I'm in the right. You should try it sometime and avoid yourself the embarrassment of degrading into a child-like tirade.

                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  He's trying to add to the OP things that even the OP hasn't brought up in his subsequent replies...if the OP had said anything more than SEO is a waste of time this would be a different conversation...MAYBE.
                  See, you even argue with yourself! You say it would be a different conversation... but then you argue with yourself and say "MAYBE!", lol. That's just bizarre.

                  As for your charge that I've brought things up the OP never said, well, that's called "fleshing it out" for people who don't comprehend. I got what the OP was saying because I'm not personally invested in DOING seo so I wasn't compelled to react snottily and defensively as have you and a few others.

                  Had you just entered and asked MrMike to be more clear, or asked him if he truly meant it the way it sounded to you, instead of acting like a bigshot and telling him he was wrong, then this would be a different conversation... MAYBE!

                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  Good thing he has Eric here to fill in the blanks on what he was really trying to say.
                  No argument with you there. You clearly needed it.

                  Originally Posted by bay37 View Post

                  I might just do that.

                  EDIT: well that was a total waste of time. Oh well.
                  Agreed. You waste your time. You've last 2 posts (plus an edit) here, added nothing nutritive to the discussion and was only meant to belittle. That's not a very good use of your time, was it?

                  Originally Posted by bay37 View Post

                  I remember you getting into an argument with someone just like that not two weeks ago...

                  My time machine works. F yeah.
                  Yep, big fish in a little pond syndrome... wherever you find an argument, Jeremy's either in it, or getting ready to be in it.
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                • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  All hail BizBoost - King of know it alls lol

                  You go dude, keep responding with drivel and before long everyone will realize just how mighty you are.

                  ...as for me, I'm just going to point and laugh...

                  that is all

                  P.S. Find a moderator that says I've run to them for anything, then get back to me, liar.
                  You threatened to run to Alan in a previous exchange. My how we forget, huh? Anyways, if you can't respond to specifics, that's ok, but why go on with nothing but snottiness? Because, as I'd pointed out, that's why you're really in this thread. You came out and said the OP was wrong, when you really just didn't comprehend what he'd said. I did, and said you were wrong, and you've been kind of whining about it ever since.

                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  Dude, read through some of his other posts on the forum, and you will soon realize that he is NEVER-EVER wrong...everyone can gain alot from following him around....after all, he is king.
                  Jeremiah, it's not that I'm never ever wrong. It's that I only jump in where I know I'm in the right. You should try it sometime and avoid yourself the embarrassment of degrading into a child-like tirade.

                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  He's trying to add to the OP things that even the OP hasn't brought up in his subsequent replies...if the OP had said anything more than SEO is a waste of time this would be a different conversation...MAYBE.
                  See, you even argue with yourself! You say it would be a different conversation... but then you argue with yourself and say "MAYBE!", lol. That's just bizarre.

                  As for your charge that I've brought things up the OP never said, well, that's called "fleshing it out" for people who don't comprehend. I got what the OP was saying because I'm not personally invested in DOING seo so I wasn't compelled to react snottily and defensively as have you and a few others.

                  Had you just entered and asked MrMike to be more clear, or asked him if he truly meant it the way it sounded to you, instead of acting like a bigshot and telling him he was wrong, then this would be a different conversation... MAYBE!

                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  Good thing he has Eric here to fill in the blanks on what he was really trying to say.
                  No argument with you there. You clearly needed it.

                  Originally Posted by bay37 View Post

                  I might just do that.

                  EDIT: well that was a total waste of time. Oh well.
                  Agreed. You waste your time. Your last 2 posts (plus an edit) here, added nothing nutritive to the discussion and was only meant to belittle. That's not a very good use of your time, was it?

                  Originally Posted by bay37 View Post

                  I remember you getting into an argument with someone just like that not two weeks ago...
                  It'd be nice if you were more clear as to whom you were speaking. Sounds as if you switched to me mid-stream while talking to Jeremy. But, yes, I was in a debate a few weeks back when the OP of that thread asked everyone what they thought about a particular person's product and, unless it was a secret invitation for everyone to become cheerleaders, I gave my experienced opinion that it was over-priced.

                  And, just as you've witnessed in this thread, a whole bunch of groupies piled on because they either were caught up in the personality parade of the marketer in question, or they just couldn't grasp that they were thinking like consumers, and not like marketers. I won't go into the details here but you really should clarify your points and the persons to whom you're making them.

                  It'd save you from wasting more of your time.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                    Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

                    You threatened to run to Alan in a previous exchange. My how we forget, huh? Anyways, if you can't respond to specifics, that's ok, but why go on with nothing but snottiness? Because, as I'd pointed out, that's why you're really in this thread. You came out and said the OP was wrong, when you really just didn't comprehend what he'd said. I did, and said you were wrong, and you've been kind of whining about it ever since.
                    I comprehended exactly what he said...and I said and still say.

                    He's wrong
                    You're wrong

                    Clear enough for you?

                    Is SEO a waste of time...for you? Obviously, but when you have the majority of a thread telling you that it is NOT A WASTE OF TIME for them, who the hell are you to tell them that THEY ARE WRONG.

                    It's kind of an argument that you can't win...but, I'm sure you will keep on trying.

                    And for the record, I threatened to tell Allen that you were abusing another member, there isn't anything you can say to me personally to even discuss you outside of a particular thread...you are indeed just that insignificant.

                    Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

                    Jeremiah, it's not that I'm never ever wrong. It's that I only jump in where I know I'm in the right. You should try it sometime and avoid yourself the embarrassment of degrading into a child-like tirade.
                    How are you right?

                    Lets recap ONE MORE TIME FOR YOU:

                    You state that SEO is a waste of time, and then have most of a thread tell you that they have seen positive ROI, and over all good results with it, and then you go on to tell those people that they are wrong....sound about right?

                    I can guarantee that there are more people on this forum, and in Marketing in general that would report a bad experience with paid traffic than with free traffic (SEO)

                    Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

                    See, you even argue with yourself! You say it would be a different conversation... but then you argue with yourself and say "MAYBE!", lol. That's just bizarre.
                    Just trying to leave you some wiggle room...oh great one

                    Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

                    As for your charge that I've brought things up the OP never said, well, that's called "fleshing it out" for people who don't comprehend. I got what the OP was saying because I'm not personally invested in DOING seo so I wasn't compelled to react snottily and defensively as have you and a few others.
                    The OP's point was pretty clear:

                    SEO IS A WASTER OF TIME

                    So clear in fact that he has repeated it a couple more times in this thread. I'm pretty sure he doesn't need you to tell him/us what he really wanted to say...unless you're the same person?

                    Mod's can we get an IP check?

                    Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

                    Had you just entered and asked MrMike to be more clear, or asked him if he truly meant it the way it sounded to you, instead of acting like a bigshot and telling him he was wrong, then this would be a different conversation... MAYBE!
                    Seeing how he started the thread, I figured I would give him the benefit of the doubt on a few things...you know:

                    That he was an adult
                    That he knew what he wanted to say

                    Why would I have any reason to believe that he didn't express exactly what he wanted to express which was:

                    SEO is a waster of time

                    ......and he was wrong.....

                    Not just by my account, but by the testimony and accounts of 90% of the people in this thread.

                    So, everyone else is wrong, except for you and Mr. Mike?

                    Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

                    No argument with you there. You clearly needed it.

                    Agreed. You waste your time. Your last 2 posts (plus an edit) here, added nothing nutritive to the discussion and was only meant to belittle. That's not a very good use of your time, was it?
                    What the hell...what's a few hours here and there educating you Eric? I'm glad to do it.

                    The fact of the matter is this:

                    No method of traffic generation is a waste of time if you can master it, know what you are doing, and see a positive or significant ROI from it. Myself and others have done just that with SEO, and for you, Mr. Mike or anyone else to call it a "waste of time" is very "stupid"
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                    • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
                      Jeremy, what happend to your "point and laugh" strategy? or "that is all"?

                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      I comprehended exactly what he said...and I said and still say.

                      He's wrong
                      You're wrong

                      Clear enough for you?
                      No, you don't, and not exactly. Your explanation as to why that is, is still extremly
                      insufficient.

                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      Is SEO a waste of time...for you? Obviously, but when you have the majority of a thread
                      telling you that it is NOT A WASTE OF TIME for them, who the hell are you to tell them that THEY ARE WRONG.
                      First,
                      you failed to refine the matter with an inquiry because you didn't, and still don't, have any clue, whatsoever, that you
                      are not comprehending MrMike properly. The fact that a bunch of other's don't either, isn't enough to dissuade me... mob
                      mentality neither impresses, nor scares, me. In fact, here's a nice message I got in my inbox regarding the argument to
                      which Bay37 referred:

                      Originally Posted by namewithheld

                      This is kind of random, but I just wanted to thank you for the contribution you made to the PLF
                      3.0 thread.

                      I thought your points were excellent and thought-provoking. I'm sure they made a few people uncomfortable, but I enjoy
                      your writing style and you seem to be coming from a place of integrity.

                      So, thanks very much for going against the grain.

                      namewithheld
                      Unlike you, Jeremy, he sounds like a nice guy. Why can't you be a nice guy?

                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      It's kind of an argument that you can't win...but, I'm sure you will keep on
                      trying.
                      It's not a matter of effort, Jeremy, when you're right, you're right. And I'm right. I'm sure the 1000s
                      of deceased who were once members of Jim Jones' cult in Guyana thought they weren't wasting their time, either. If anyone
                      came to tell them they were wasting their time, I'm sure they swarmed that person with unkind invectives. So, what does
                      your statement tell us? Nothing. A bunch of people can be wrong while the one, or two, with the other viewpoint can be
                      right. And, regarding the science of mob mentality, that's usually the case.

                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      And for the record, I threatened to tell Allen that you were abusing another member, there
                      isn't anything you can say to me personally to even discuss you outside of a particular thread...you are indeed just that
                      insignificant.
                      To you, perhaps, but unlike you, who seems to relish the spotlight, I am perfectly glad to have all
                      my stuff on autopilot without needing to be discussed by groupies. I don't need the illusion of being liked by people who
                      have no real understanding of me.

                      As for the member you claimed was abused, shame on you for such a lie. Even in this very thread, you're the one doing the
                      abusing. The proof is that despite your mischaracterization of that thread, it was never touched and the claim was never
                      taken seriously. Because it was obvious to anyone with an ounce of reason that I was being a "member moderator" and had
                      to ask someone to stop doing something. Even though it was a nice gesture, it didn't belong where it was, and it would
                      open the doorway for many more well-intended people to do the same. If you want to call taking my job as a "member
                      moderator" seriously, then go for it... that's your style, anyways.

                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      How are you right?

                      Lets recap ONE MORE TIME FOR YOU:

                      You state that SEO is a waste of time, and then have most of a thread tell you that they have seen positive ROI, and over
                      all good results with it, and then you go on to tell those people that they are wrong....sound about right?

                      I can guarantee that there are more people on this forum, and in Marketing in general that would report a bad experience
                      with paid traffic than with free traffic (SEO)
                      Ok, here's how I am right and you are wrong.
                      To create the illusion of being right, you continually seperate "SEO is a waste of time" from the context of being
                      compared to "traffic buys." It is a waste of time compared to well-done traffic buys;
                      Well done SEO takes light years longer PER SITE, than does a well done traffic buy for MULTIPLE SITES;
                      Traffic buys are not subject to the ongoing whims of Google;
                      Traffic buys are not subject to the whims of 10000s of other sole proprieter SEO geeks, and major companies, studying you
                      and competing against each other 24/7/365.
                      The original dream of making money online was FINANCIAL FREEDOM, not spending day after day online tweaking, re-tweaking,
                      repairing and defending search engine rankings for 100s of sites.
                      Now, if your intent is to start an SEO business and charge others for it, that's a different story. If you ENJOY seo, and
                      want the JOY of working into your overall lifestyle, great! But, if you are here to make money online and achieve
                      financial freedom, then getting involved with DOING seo is a waste of time.

                      The thing is, that should've been obvious when MrMike mentioned "traffic buys" because "traffic buys" don't lend
                      themselves to a community like SEO. The people who you use as your proof either have no real business experience, or
                      education because anyone good at SEO should be selling their services rather than running 100s of websites in such an
                      uncertain and competitive environment.

                      You know, a REALLY creative traffic buy that doesn't require any money or a website is JV brokering. You leverage someone
                      else's website and product and arrange for a better than usual return for 5-6 list owners. Boom, earns you more cash than
                      a year of constantly tweaking 100s of websites in an uncertain, unstable, highly competitive environment.

                      But, that's advanced stuff, Jeremy, I dont expect you to get it so quickly.

                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      Just trying to leave you some wiggle room...oh great one
                      Who knows, maybe some day
                      we'll be friends.

                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      The OP's point was pretty clear:

                      SEO IS A WASTER OF TIME

                      So clear in fact that he has repeated it a couple more times in this thread. I'm pretty sure he doesn't need you to tell
                      him/us what he really wanted to say...unless you're the same person?

                      Mod's can we get an IP check?
                      LOL, how perfect was that? I said it was only a matter of time before you ran to the
                      mods and, lacking any smiley face to suggest you're kidding, it looks as if you really want an IP check. But, why would
                      anyone need to do that? If I was MrMike, I'd just school you as MrMike. His answers weren't as nuanced as mine, but he
                      was perfectly logical and reasonable in them.

                      The reason I'm involved is because what he's saying is very difficult for people who are prone to knee-jerk reactions,
                      people who aren't capable of making sincere follow-up inquiries. And when those types come barreling in, it can be
                      confusing for some of the silent passers-by who might not yet really know this stuff and, so, who are vulnerable to the
                      bad information of which a mob mentality is quite capable.

                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      Seeing how he started the thread, I figured I would give him the benefit of the doubt on a
                      few things...you know:

                      That he was an adult
                      That he knew what he wanted to say

                      Why would I have any reason to believe that he didn't express exactly what he wanted to express which was:

                      SEO is a waster of time

                      ......and he was wrong.....
                      I wouldn't say that you'd have a REASON. I'd characterize it more as a deficiency but
                      I didn't want to ramp up your defensiveness by implying that you might just be psycologically incapable of taking things
                      in context. In this case, you keep isolating the statement, "SEO is a time waster", when he clearly
                      said some basic SEO was ok.
                      was comparing it to TRAFFIC BUYS which would, for those with *business experience/education* (theres that funny phrase
                      again!), imply a value on our time, and
                      And it really just shouldn't take a physics major to comprehend that paying someone to do a little more SEO for you,
                      assuming you know the service seller's reputation, would amount to a kind of TRAFFIC BUY. Some traffic buys are
                      "guaranteed visitor" types, others are ppc, others are ezine articles, others could be buying seo.

                      But, for people who want to achieve finanaical freedom, SEO is a waste of time compared to traffic buys. Like I've said a
                      number of times, if you LIKE seo, or you want it to satisfy your social requirements, then its perfectly ok to take the
                      lesser road full of vague, uncertainties and massive, never-ending, 24/7 competition. That's your right.

                      But don't dare tell the newcomers passing through here that it's not a time water compared to traffic buys. That should
                      be a crime.

                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      Not just by my account, but by the testimony and accounts of 90% of the people in this
                      thread.

                      So, everyone else is wrong, except for you and Mr. Mike?
                      It happens. I've bet you've never seen a polar bear up
                      close, either.

                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      What the hell...what's a few hours here and there educating you Eric? I'm glad to do
                      it.
                      I appreciate that but it's going to take me a few hours to train you on how it's really done.

                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      The fact of the matter is this:

                      No method of traffic generation is a waste of time if you can master it, know what you are doing, and see a positive or
                      significant ROI from it. Myself and others have done just that with SEO, and for you, Mr. Mike or anyone else to call it a
                      "waste of time" is very "stupid"
                      So, I suppose you'd still recommend safelists and FFA's to everyone passing
                      through here, hmmm?

                      But, if you continue to slice it up and present it out of context, you can always make yourself look as right as you like.
                      But I'm just going to keep gluing things back together by remind you, and anyone else who likes the old-fashing forum
                      argument, that MrMike was saying that DOING seo was a waste of time compared to traffic buys.

                      I think it's safe to imply that he intended that for those interested in financial freedom as opposed to those who are seo
                      junkies, hobbyists and/or socialites.

                      Doing SEO is fun kids. It can give you a quick rush of feeling as if you're getting something for nothing but I promise
                      you... it ends quickly... and it begins ending the moment you realize your time actually has a value to it. And that can
                      be as cheap, or expensive as you want to make it.

                      If you don't place a high value on your time...enter the world of SEO and it's vague, uncertanties where 10000s of other
                      seo geeks and major companies are constantly looking up your skirt and trying to upend you 24/7, yes while you sleep...

                      Or, you can study traffic buys, and make money while you sleep.

                      The choice is yours. And you have all the information you need before heading to stage II...

                      Best wishes to all,
                      Eric
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                      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                        Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

                        Jeremy, what happend to your "point and laugh" strategy? or "that is all"?

                        You see, there is "link bait" - then there is "comic relief bait"

                        You are the latter...

                        I knew by posting you would post, and cause even more people to tell you how wrong you were.

                        Well done.
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                    • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
                      PS. My bad, Jeremy, I missed this.

                      If you don't think doing SEO is a time waster compared to traffic buys, then you really ought to take an hour or so and make sure you're up to snuff on the following:

                      Google Rich Snippets Tips and Tricks - a collection by Google Rich Snippets#


                      You'll definitely want to beware of microformats and CSS naming collisions. And you're dead in the water if you don't know how to mark up ratings that don't use a 5-point scale because then Google won't be able to parse the right info off your sites to make a really nice, rich snippet.

                      But, wait, that's only if you're doing a review site, or some kind of social media site. Marketers don't do review sites, do they? Ooops. Better sign up for PubCon in Vegas this year before tickets sell out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    loaded down with work amd just coming up for a little air so I don't have time to go point for point. Let me just summarize -

    This thread is a waste of space and plain silly. It can be easily demonstrated to be so by asking a simple question - What is SEO?

    SEO is getting your site placed high in the search engines for a term that people of sufficient quantity are looking info on (thats right ranking for 20 searches a month isn't SEO. Nothing needed to be optimized to get that.)

    So steps of SEO

    1) research market data of how many people are looking for your product and how they are searching for it.
    2) Spend a few hours or less optimizing your page for those terms.
    3) get backlinks to your site.

    If you don't do number one - You are a moron (business speaking. You might be genius in some other area but business is not for you.) Media buys without knowing what people are looking for on the Internet? Sheeesh. get a grip.

    IF you don't do two although it takes little time then you are not quite a moron but you are clueless. You are like the guy in a strip mall that doesn't want to invest in a sign so that people who visit the grocery store will know you are there. They are already there (searching on Google, Yahoo and MS) in bulk so why not let them see you are there? Low effort nice rewards.

    And three can be done in all kinds of different ways some of which just involve providing the kind of content that makes people want to return anyway (thats what both sides miss entirely that little thing called repeat traffic that most sites are built almost entirely on that never comes if your page or site is junk in contnet). Plenty people get backlinks without placing them themselves or buying them. In fact read a main line SEO blog one day and you will see that that IS SEO.

    So thats SEO. Research, content and attracting links. Do media buys without doing research? Get psychiatirc help. Don't put the words on your pages that attract people to read more of what they are interested in? Get a second psychiatrist that missed all the problems in your head the first one missed. Don't want people to link back to you thereby directing traffic to you as well as improving your position among people actively involved in searching for your niche? Forget the shrinks. You are masochist and cannot be helped. clearly you believe in links back to you if you espouse affiliate marketing so I guess you won't take the link without paying for it no matter what. Yeah that makes sense.

    So to me the only sense in this thread is if you are equating SEO with backlinking using only one or two means. In which case you don't know what SEO is at all which leads right back to making no sense.
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  • Profile picture of the author peterzeller
    Bah.

    Why waste your money when you can get free traffic?

    It turns out I prefer SEO over PPC after trying both, but I still do some PPC. You prefer PPC over SEO? So what, man?

    Just don't say that we are losing our time. I agree that ranking well on Google is not a sure thing, there are some misses, but I spent the last 18 months doing that, and I can tell you retroactively that it was time very well spent.

    Now tell me that you NEVER optimize your PPC campaigns? Yea, exactly...
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Mr. Mike, there's nothing wrong with buying traffic...but I earn tens of thousands of dollars each year strictly from organic search results. That's tens of thousands of dollars worth of traffic I don't have to pay for. If you think that's not worth doing, that's your business, but with all due respect, I would then suggest your understanding of SEO is somewhat limited.
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    • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Mr. Mike, there's nothing wrong with buying traffic...but I earn tens of thousands of dollars each year strictly from organic search results. That's tens of thousands of dollars worth of traffic I don't have to pay for. If you think that's not worth doing, that's your business, but with all due respect, I would then suggest your understanding of SEO is somewhat limited.
      First, Dennis... it'd be nice if we could verify specifics like
      1. How long it took you to get there;
      2. How vulnerable you are if Google does one of its infamous changes;
      3. How much you're affected by thousands of competitors who ultimately discover your keywords and try to out-optimize you;
      4. how many traffic buys you could have done in half the time and whether or not that money couldve been better invested and saved you time in the long run.
      5. If one well done traffic buy to just one of your sites could outperform all that SEO has done for you for the entire year.
      Like many others, Dennis, it seems you weren't able to maintain MrMike's connection that doing SEO is a waste of time compared to traffic buys. Now, if you're going to start an SEO business, or you like the SEO social scene, then booyah! hats off to ya... another story altogether...

      I just wonder how much earning potential you've lost in tripping over dollars to pick up quarters.

      Wish you continued success, Dennis,
      Eric
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post

        How long it took you to get there;
        This question somewhat presumes I started out with organic search results in mind, but I didn't. The particular site I was referring to is 13 years old and was started as a hobby. Still, I've been earning that kind of money from that site for 11 years now with the exception of the year it was hacked and de-listed.

        How vulnerable you are if Google does one of its infamous changes;
        Honestly, not too much. There are too many entry points. My PageRank actually increased this last time. The home page went from 5 to 6, and many interior pages increased by 2-3 digits, with a few pages jumping from 0 to 4. What I do has been working for over a decade, I feel pretty safe with unless the site would get hacked again.

        How much you're affected by thousands of competitors who ultimately discover your keywords and try to out-optimize you;
        Again, not much.

        how many traffic buys you could have done in half the time and whether or not that money couldve been better invested and saved you time in the long run.

        If one well done traffic buy to just one of your sites could outperform all that SEO has done for you for the entire year.
        No way to answer those questions without rearranging history.

        Like many others, Dennis, it seems you weren't able to maintain MrMike's connection that doing SEO is a waste of time compared to traffic buys. Now, if you're going to start an SEO business, or you like the SEO social scene, then booyah! hats off to ya... another story altogether...
        I didn't miss the connection, I just don't see seo as a big, time-consuming thing. We're probably talking about two different business models. On-site optimization is a habit, it adds an extra minute or two to the content creation; and I spend very little time on off-site optimization. I may write an article here or there or make a video, but mostly people just link to my site because they like the content.

        I would point out that this isn't the only business model I use to set up sites, but it is the most stable. I can ignore the site for months (and have) and it keeps pouring income into my bank account.

        I just wonder how much earning potential you've lost in tripping over dollars to pick up quarters.
        I can't answer that any more than you can answer how much free traffic you've passed up because you're so happy to pay for it.

        Like I said, there's nothing wrong with buying traffic. I have bought traffic for other sites I own, but there's nothing wrong with targeted free traffic either, especially when it takes so little time under the right conditions.

        Having said that, I agree it's a huge mistake to put all your eggs in the Google basket, or all your eggs in any basket, for that matter. Trust me, I don't. I made that mistake long ago and learned from it.

        Wish you continued success, Dennis,
        Eric
        Likewise! All the best to you, Eric.
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    I think perhaps it's not so much a lack of understanding as much as
    the priorities a person has. It's also pretty easy for someone to use
    a certain method of traffic generation and once there's success, maybe
    they simply stick with it and don't branch out.

    Obviously there is value to doing SEO and if you can rank in the top 3,
    then that's great. Free traffic in terms of not paying for it directly. But
    nothing's free.

    I wouldn't want to hang my entire hat on Google, though. But that's me.

    Why not enjoy as much as possible and use as many traffic generation
    methods as possible?

    Paid for as well as SEO. If someone is making good money with buying
    traffic, then it will be even easier to have the SEO campaign put into
    place.

    At least that's what I plan on doing. Diversification as much as possible.

    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author Spot the Ball
      Bizboost, You talk utter crap mate.

      You've gone on about mob mentality in this thread and ALL you have done is belittle anyone who does seo for themselves.

      Yeah, thats right.

      Dont you think that might get peoples back up a little ?

      Seriously, Take at look at your posts, it aint about whether seo or media buys is better with you now .... you just want to be RIGHT.
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      • Profile picture of the author BizBoost
        Originally Posted by Spot the Ball View Post

        Bizboost, You talk utter crap mate.

        You've gone on about mob mentality in this thread and ALL you have done is belittle anyone who does seo for themselves.

        Yeah, thats right.

        Dont you think that might get peoples back up a little ?

        Seriously, Take at look at your posts, it aint about whether seo or media buys is better with you now .... you just want to be RIGHT.
        No, I *am* right. You seem pretty confident that you're right, true? So, why should you have a problem that I'm pretty confident that I'm right? Isn't that a form of self-denial to get mad at someone for the very thing you're doing?

        Anyways, I'm not belittling *anyone* who does seo for themselves? Go show me one instance. I'll wait. I promise. The only belittling I've done is to the FEW, of those many, who BEGAN with the belittling themselves. The ones who either bullied, or ridiculed, the OP as, in my defended opintion, a smokescreen for their inability to comprehend. I pointed out every instance of where they tried to spin, split, reinvent and whatever else, to make it seem as if the OP was saying something he wasn't.

        And you are correct about one thing, it is no longer about whether seo or media buy is better. That case was made long ago. But, unless you've been shut in your whole life, you'll know a debate has more than one part to it.

        The part where a belief is stated.
        The part where people disagree; and,
        The part where the belief is defended.

        We're in the defending stage now, buddy. And, I'm sorry if you have a problem with it, but it's ok to be right... even more so when you are.

        And I am.

        Have a nice day,
        Eric
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        • Profile picture of the author Spot the Ball
          Its fine to believe in what you are saying ..... its also good to listen sometimes.

          I believe I am doing the right thing in studying seo .... I also believe paid advertising if you know what you are doing is the right way too.

          You think people are "geeks" because they dont have $500 to go out and pay for traffic when starting out ?

          You mention that seo's need to spend money on memberships, so I take it paid traffic takes no training and everyone can do it with no cash outlay ?

          You seem to be assuming that every one can just jump in with $500 or whatever and hit the big time.

          If you want to teach/offer advice then do so but dont lead everyone to believe all you need is a spare few hundred quid and everythings going to be hunky dory.



          Originally Posted by BizBoost View Post


          The part where a belief is stated.
          The part where people disagree; and,
          The part where the belief is defended.

          We're in the defending stage now, buddy. And, I'm sorry if you have a problem with it, but it's ok to be right... even more so when you are.

          And I am.

          Have a nice day,
          Eric
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  • Profile picture of the author mcampbell075
    Well I still believe in SEO and all I can say is SEO gurus need to change with time cause the SEO that worked 20 years ago does not work today. This is a bold statement from google but true cause SEO expert always trying to find a way to out smart google bots by ranking # 1 with their keywords.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zach Booker
    ...There's nothing wrong if you want to focus on either. There are millionaires on both sides of the table. Are there bigger, and more affiliates who run paid traffic rather than getting SEO traffic? Of course, but that has little to do with how effective one over the other is.

    Keep in mind the first billion dollar tech IPO is nothing more than a glorified link whore of a SEO website.

    I don't think you ever waste time online, unless you're doing nothing, since most of the things you'll do you'll learn from. Even if it appears to be a failure.

    I'm guessing those that say "your wasting your time with SEO" don't practice what they preach however with paid traffic.

    Just like you'll build sites that don't pay for themselves you'll run campaigns that you lose money on, and that potentially you'll never make any money on.

    I know loads of people who do 30k+ media buys, an offer goes dead, and their stuck with terrible alternative offers that make them lose five figures.

    It's happening every day in the re-bill space because of the limited amount of offers now.

    ...On the flip side I know of many people that start an FB campaign, lose money for the first week, but keep on trying to get to probability but end up just having to throw in the towel. Losing a hundred or two a day ads up.

    ...On the flip side I know of guys doing well (this would be me) on Adwords until I got banned and lost a huge piece of my daily revenue.

    Are all those things wasting time? They're wasting money... but is that PoF, or FB, or Adwords campaign that you slave over for hours a waste of time because you just ended up breaking even or losing money?

    By that same logic is it wasting time, and a bit of money, trying to get a site ranked, getting some traffic, maybe some money, and getting slapped and having to start all over?

    Either way you have nothing to show from it but lost money and a learning experience.

    Like I said both, if you put your heart into it, will end up teaching you something that you've probably not known before.

    To say that either are ineffective is simply nieve. A lot of people are talking about "theory", what looks good on paper, but very few talk from experience on either issue.

    But it's apparent, from looking at these threads over the years, some people just like picking fights and wasting time that way (instead of just wasting time on SEO or PPC like normal people ;-).
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Well done, Zach. In the end, no matter what you do there's the risk
    of having no money to show but some good lessons, instead.

    My approach is military-like, multi-pronged attack.

    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelvin Brown
    First: Lets agree that what works for you is a good thing. Whether it is SEO, or buying traffic.

    If you think SEO is good, then keep at it. If you think buying traffic is good and it works for you great.

    Stop Saying SEO is trash, doesn't work, waste of time, etc.

    Now, there are different levels to SEO. Someone mentioned that instead of spending time on SEO they just add content. But, lets think about that content; is it a well written article, on a well researched topic. Then, I submit that whether they meant to or not, they used basic principles of SEO. How, you ask?

    Check the article, does it have an on topic title?
    Is there a highly relevant keyword phrase in the topic?
    How about the opening paragraph?
    Check the rest of the body, you will likely find the title phrase 2 or 3 times through out the article.

    I submit to you, that is SEO, what ever else you might call it.


    It was mentioned Apple and other don't care about SEO. Did you check their title and description tags. They are using them.


    As to different levels I mentioned: Everyone should apply the basics of SEO. Meaning create good titles, descriptions, and opening the first readable text with keyword phrases. This at the very least. If you use images, add alt text tags and descriptions, etc. Use anchor text with content.

    Now, for some this is a good place to stop, and move on to the next project.

    For others, they may get more serious about SEO, and check ranking daily, if not hourly to see if they moved a spot or 2, one way or the other. I prefer to build up the site with content, and work on getting other incoming links.

    So, you can do the basics for SEO and then just put in work, or you can be totally anal about SEO. But don't say it does not work.


    I have a video that I forgot about, been up about 3 years, is #1 our of 16,000,000 pages. Why, age is a biggie, I did good SEO on the submission itself, and made sure it had a few incoming links. Now, if i through money at it, and the fad went away, i would have lost ad paying for traffic. However, what was old is now new again, and because of basic SEO, + age, that site is sitting in a great position, with no more time or money spent, just waiting for me to do more to monetize it.

    In conclusion, SEO works. The real decision is how much time will you put into it. 20 minutes one time for the basics or 20 minutes every day.

    What ever method you use, if it works for you I say bravo. But don't put down other methods without proof. Especially in a forum where there are several different people, and new people all the time, that come here to learn what works. Some have money for buying traffic, some have only time. Teach all, and let them choose what works best.

    Kelvin
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