[pensfan6636]

Forum management was answering a lot of questions before, but now that so many people have spoken out against Rule 17.... they have vanished! They probably don't know what to do now. If they retract the rule, they look bad. If they keep it, they lose a butt load of money. They really should address the complaints though... unprofessional if they don't.

[XXXXXXXX]

I really don't think it would look bad if they changed it. But its hard to know what there thinking is.

There was something a few months ago that they did... and a bunch of us spoke up about it.. and aliester listened and changed it back.

Its a funny trick bag they are in now. You cant let the inmates run the asylum...but at the same time.. you have to listen to your customers.. not just the product buyers but also your customers that use the forum, create and sell products etc etc.

I think the intent was of course to get rid of the crap wso's that people produce whose methods don't work and of course don't produce the income they state. But you cant protect everyone in every situation.

The problem is this. Lets say I am a dog trainer. And I produce a wso on dog training....but... I don't have any good photos of dogs sitting, rolling over, shaking hands etc. So I use photos from dogs that were not dogs I have trained. I use photos from other peoples dogs sitting, shaking, rolling overs etc... does that mean the information in my wso is no good or a scam?

No of course not. I have said in my sales copy that my wso will teach you how to get your dog to sit, shake and roll over. And guess what... it does. But I add the photos to get my customers more interested in buying my product. Its marketing. Its salesmanship.

Now there will be people that disagree with what I said above because we are talking about "money claims" ...but to me its not that different.

I think that most people that produce wso's are looking to help people, share there valuable knowledge and make a few bucks while they are it. You cant punish all the product creators out there for the actions of some jerks that produce crap and take advantage of people.

This forums primary function is help people learn how to make money online. It seems silly to me to pull income claims from wso's and again ....if they do this.. I strongly feel it will overall have a very very negative long term effect on warrior. Your product creators and affiliates are warriors biggest customers.

X

Originally Posted by pensfan6636

Forum management was answering a lot of questions before, but now that so many people have spoken out against Rule 17.... they have vanished! They probably don't know what to do now. If they retract the rule, they look bad. If they keep it, they lose a butt load of money. They really should address the complaints though... unprofessional if they don't.

[Coach Comeback]

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Now that me and the dog have had some breakfast, tell me, what do you think about these income and result claims?






I just checked Warrior Payments and do you know how many offers have made at least $63,000?

Zero.

Nothing is remotely close.

Am I wrong that this?

- Does not comply with the forum's own rules?
- Is a fraudulent screen shot with fabricated income and fabricated product results?
- Even if made up for illustration (which is not disclosed), misrepresents typical results?

What about the forum's use of this testimonial referring to money being made?



.

Ok this is just too funny to ignore. Anyone ever going to address this. Valid point me thinks.

[XXXXXXXX]

lets see how long it takes for this guy to get banned...that will tell you if any admins are looking at this.....lol

His post should be right above mine here.... out of all the posts on warrior to spam...he picked this one..lol

X

PS I removed his link from my quote..don't ban me!!

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[Jay D]

To me, it seems these rules were clearly created on the fly and very little thought went into them. The MMO niche itself is an income claim. Nearly ALL the top gurus in the marketing industry use Income claims to sell their stuff for two reasons mainly:

1. That's what sells.
2. That's what people want.

I won't be surprised if there is a sharp decline in amount of products created and bought on Warrior Forum in the coming months.

Also, I am patiently waiting for an Admin to address the (allegedly) fake Warrior Payments screenshot.

[Coach Comeback]

Originally Posted by Jayneel D

To me, it seems these rules were clearly created on the fly and very little thought went into them. The MMO niche itself is an income claim. Nearly ALL the top gurus in the marketing industry use Income claims to sell their stuff for two reasons mainly:

1. That's what sells.
2. That's what people want.

I won't be surprised if there is a sharp decline in amount of products created and bought on Warrior Forum in the coming months.

Also, I am patiently waiting for an Admin to address the (allegedly) fake Warrior Payments screenshot.

That is what is so funny/ironic about this whole thing. Which is what makes it such an interesting debate.

WSO buyers are standing up and cheering and all for it

WSO creators are screaming bloody murder

lol

The funny thing is .... this is the #1 INTERNET MARKETING forum. What is internet marketing exactly?



By definition... this is the number 1 site on the web to learn how to... make money online.

I would bet 99.997% of the people who are on this site originally came to learn how to increase their business in some way or another... or ... MAKE MONEY ONLINE.

Yet, don't promise them that they will make any money at all? By the very definition of the site.... it's just funny to me.

Well aware I will not make any new friends with this post hahahaha sorry.

[JensSteyaert]

Originally Posted by Coach Comeback

That is what is so funny/ironic about this whole thing. Which is what makes it such an interesting debate.

WSO buyers are standing up and cheering and all for it

WSO creators are screaming bloody murder

lol

The funny thing is .... this is the #1 INTERNET MARKETING forum. What is internet marketing exactly?

By definition... this is the number 1 site on the web to learn how to... make money online.

I would be 99.997% of the people who are on this site originally came to learn how to increase their business in some way or another... or ... MAKE MONEY ONLINE.

Yet, don't promise them that they will make any money at all? By the very definition of the site.... it's just funny to me.

Well aware I will not make any new friends with this post hahahaha sorry.

My thought exactly...You got a new friend

They are running a forum that should teach people how to make money online, yet, if you sell a product here you can't mention your students might make some money.

It's like on a bodybuilding forum telling people that if they want to sell a product on building muscle, they can't tell people might gain some muscle...

I've been discussing this in my fb group and people are shocked what is happening here. This is not funny, this is hurting people and not helping people...

It appears to me that at this rate, soon there will be 2/3 internet marketing forums bigger than WF so they might need to change their tag line too...

[Mike Anthony]

CC and X

I brought up the wording pages ago (when it seemed no one had issues with it)and agree its not the best. "Imply" is just toooooo wide a word

but to clarify.....In every example I have seen so far when I asked about that what has come back is examples that fall into specific income claims or guarantees.

So for example if you said "start a lucrative business" that would imply you are going to make money but what I am getting from the examples I've seen of violations its not an income claim as they are defining it. I could be wrong but I am going off the examples I have seen mentioned. The actual implementation of the rule rather than the wording (although that can confuse and should be changed) is whats going to make the difference in approval for WSOs

Though this is a big change what i am seeing so far in terms of how I THINK they are using the term "Income Claim" its not going to be something as big as people are making it. If you sit down and think about you can compensate for it and my bet is there are copywriters who already have.

CC listened to some of your podcasts recently....good job with those

[Mark Singletary]

You have three groups of people that need to be happy in order for the forum to succeed and reach its full potential:

1. The folks that come mainly for the discussion and generally don't buy or sell things.
2. The folks that come mainly to sell things.
3. The folks that come mainly to buy things.

Of course there is a lot of combinations and a lot of degrees of those combinations in the user base here but those are the general main users.

1. The discussion mainly users

Several people have pointed out that what makes this forum tick are the sellers and or the buyers. But this forum started with discussion only. That is its basis. The people that came to sell and buy came after there was already a substantial user base that came to share their secrets, tricks, tips, stories, etc. for free.

As the marketplace has grown bigger the good discussion of the past has changed dramatically for the worse. Many of us blame the growth (in a wrong way) of the marketplace on this. Especially when there are WSOs, for example, that tell absolute beginners to answer questions on the forum and they'll be seen as an expert and people will buy their PLR they sell on their website. It has become a case of the blind leading the blind and the people that know what they are talking about have grown tired of it and are leaving.

2. The sellers

Some of the WSO sellers are out of control, in my opinion. They won't govern themselves and they threaten to leave if anyone dares take away their hype and in some cases, lies.

Some won't refund and are outright scammers.

Hype and income claims and promises are way out of line. I said before that if half of them were true, we have the cure for world hunger and poverty right here. We should tell Congress about the WSO forum so they can get some tips on how to solve things.

Some of the products are subpar at best - those I haven't bought but have seen in the WR have proven to me at least that I would not have been happy if I had bought them. The old "what do you expect for $7" doesn't hold weight when the sales copy promises the world and "all you need to ___".

In many cases, WSOs come from people that have never done anything online but buy a WSO about how to create a "cash sucking WSO in 2 hours and bank for months to come" product. How do we know? Because some of these guys are in the discussion part asking how to get traffic to their how to get traffic product or whatever.

It's trendy to blame the user for the wrong mindset or laziness or whatever when things don't work out. The sellers aren't accountable nor do they accept the blame normally.

It's also the norm to blast them with lots of new "all you need to __" opportunities/promos after they purchased the first "all you need to ___" WSO. So no wonder we have a bright shiny object syndrome gone viral here and elsewhere.

Previously one guy openly admitted to putting out WSOs after the method was spent. Yet he joins the list of complainers about the new rules.

Many of these guys will leave because they can't figure out a way to not hype things with income claims or guarantees. Free hint before you leave: Check out this sales letter by a well known and respected guru. I don't see any income claims or guarantees: http://www.ipremiumproducts.com/

Of course there are many respected sellers that put out good stuff and take care of their customers too. As with anything, it's the rotten apples that mess up the rest of the barrel.

3. The Buyers

I think the extreme hype and resulting disappointment of many users have led them to label the WF and all associated as scammers. In some cases they are right and in some cases they are wrong.

I think that the WSO forum has cannibalized itself by caving into users. For example, the insistent demands to know if there is an OTO have hurt the sales process.

The demand for income proof (or the seller is a scammer) turns into proof being provided but in many cases it is from sales of OTHER things and then when the product isn't as expected they claim everyone is a scammer.

Then they leave.

So keeping these 3 groups happy is not easy but if they don't then everyone will eventually leave.

If there is no viable or valuable discussion it just becomes an ad board.

If the sellers leave because they can't hype their stuff that hurts the bottom line of FL.

If end users feel they get scammed and can't get a good answer when they ask on the discussion part they leave and so there is no one left to buy stuff.

Not an easy job to please everyone but there has to be a win-win-win somewhere in all this.

Mark

[Coach Comeback]

Hey, like I mentioned... I have no problem with an owner making changes for what he believes is in the best interests of it's clients. That is their job and I respect them for it.

Making changes like this is risky and it takes guts. That is how great things are created: by taking great risks.

If I want to continue to be here... I will make the changes. No problem.

Some things are just not that black and white though.

I get the false income claims. Nobody likes that.

So I will just give you a personal example (although the one above by JensSteyaert saying it's like having a bodybuilding website but none of the product promise that you will build your body. Or a weight loss forum but the products are not allowed to say "lose 10lbs in 5 days". Even though we know it is not the "typical" results... if it was not in the title it would not sell. Plain and simple)

according to the rules of #17 and income claims, it even gave the example of "how I made"....

So...

One of my best selling products that has been selling for over a year and a half here (when most will tell you wso's have a 2 month shelf life) with like 99.9% positive review from the hundreds of students I have...

The title is a case study "How I made $2991 in 4.5 days". In which I document exactly what I did in less than 5 days from start to finish to earn $2991. And have several dozen students who did even better than that.

But even though I never PROMISE YOU WILL MAKE ANYTHING... technically I basically have to take this product down by the 12th! After all the work and positive changes that has come from this. No one has ever once accused me of being a scammer or making false claims. That product gets nothing but praise.

Is that fair? Who are we "protecting" there?

hmmm

Or I could butcher the sales letter and call it...

"How to put in 12 hour days and work your ass off to build a solid business" Which is the REAL headline... but let me ask you.... which would you buy?

buyers may complain about the promises... but I ask any buyer in here to list the last 10 products they purchased... and lets see what percentage does NOT have any promises...implied or otherwise on the sales letter.

because if we go back to what I said earlier... by the very definition.. that is why there are here.

If you were looking to lose weight... which book would you buy?

"How to give up your favorite foods, exercise more and learn self-discipline"

Or

"Washboard abs and 3 inches off your waistline without ever stepping foot in the gym in 5 mins a day"

[David Mcalorum]

Originally Posted by Anthony La Rocca

Quick question for Alaister or Daniel

I just got an email from WarriorForum in regards to Rule #17



Now as of now, Rule #17 states



If we have made income that is verified with WarriorPayments -- are we then allowed to claim that earning in our thread title, headline, or copy?

I felt that we would be able to do so based on how that rule is explained, but based on PM's from the mod's today..not so much and once again after several revisions and approvals, my thread was removed off the forum AGAIN.

So my question is...when one of us gets verified income from WarriorPayments and is then teaching others how to get that income in the form of a WSO -- what are the rules for that? I am just basically confused why it says we can claim income if its verified by WarriorPayments...and now being told can't put any income claims at all.

This will definitely help me for future WSO's being posted and would appreciate the insight

For example lets say I build 10 websites and flip them for $97 a pop and I setup a page for one to buy those websites off me using WarriorPayments. Can I not then bundle up a WSO teaching people how I made flipping sites since the payments would then be verified?

Originally Posted by James Campbell

You're not the only one.

Here is the reason why:

They came up with almost all of these rules "on the fly", didn't think them out properly, did not make them very specific, did not think of the various implications, did not figure out how to properly implement + enforce the rules, clearly didn't get their legal team to look at some of the rules (now changed or removed) before posting them and also clearly didn't train their team properly on what the rules are and how to enforce them (probably because the rules aren't clear in the first place).

The implementation of this whole "new rules" thing has been a gong show from the moment it started.

Some of the rules make logical sense, others make no sense at all. It has become clear that the new owners have little to no idea what makes/made this community work so well for so many years and for so many thousands of people. Shoot first, figure it out later. That is their style of managing this forum, or at least it has been from almost day one.

So far they've depreciated the asset they've purchased instead of making it more profitable. The traffic stats, the ad availability, the fewer and fewer wso offers being put up/launched, etc... they all point to missteps in managing and changes being prematurely implemented on the forum.

Hopefully this trend changes, but it isn't looking pretty.

Sidenote: funny thing is, I'm not even a seller on this forum, but it has been hurting my soul watching this place be run into the ground by the new owners.

Originally Posted by David Mcalorum

^^^ THIS. You know, for example, "Internet Marketing" is VERY closely intertwined with "Make Money Online" ... Look at that last one... The very root name of this niche is technically a "income claim" by the new rules. Like, isn't all of advertising promoting SOME KIND of result? Thats what advertising is! Either that result be, emotional, physical or as it relates to the "Make Money Online" or "Internet Marketing Niche" the desired result is a majority of the time, financial.

After some time, the sellers will lose incentive selling anything here, if we can't promise any financial results, because again, this niche by its very root definition is "Make Money Online" or "Internet Marketing" which are basically two interchangable terms. IM is the mechanics and processes of MMO.

The audience here, wants to LEARN how to make money online. So they want to believe that they
too can do it if you can. So, income claims in this niche are quite frankly necessary. Seriously, ask any copywriter and he will tell you so. And this means directly stated or implied, or via social proof. People are BUYING a experience, via a emotional reaction that if they follow through, will lead to a result.

What I am trying to say, is that people want to believe that they can make money too. So if they see no social proof, no outragious or even perfectly attainable claims, then what the hell are they here to learn.
It seems, unfortunately that the new owners don't yet understand their audience. Not the sellers, and not the buyers.

Maybe a simple solution to all of this is to jack up the price of WSO bumps to say $50 or $60, revert back to the old rules, and then see who sticks around. This will accomplish a number of things. It will:

1- Show you who can actually affort to bump things, i.e, sellers with legit courses that can afford to promote them instead of people who have fake claims and cant afford the new prices.

2- Remove most trolls as most sellers will most likely raise their prices to recover the bump money. Further resulting in...

3- A higher quality buyer, less moderation, and more profit for the forum,

I just hope they don't scare both buyer AND seller away, cause punishing one, will effect the
other, and vise versa. I guess the next few months will truly determine this forums fate, and
I personally don't want it to die, but as James said above (and I agree) its not looking good.

Originally Posted by James Campbell

Want to know why me and many other affilates don't promote WSOs anymore AT ALL?

Try coming to any part of this forum without being signed in. You'll get a pop-up "encouraging" you to sign up or sign in.

This kills conversions on the offer and kills all decent mobile traffic to the offer. Just another genius move.

Someone please address THESE issues. Havent heard anything so far....And I know you (the mods or owners) have read them. Are you going to do something? If not, kiss your 2 million goodbye. Seriously. As the good old saying goes... "if it aint broke, don't fix it"

[David Mcalorum]

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Now that me and the dog have had some breakfast, tell me, what do you think about these income and result claims?






I just checked Warrior Payments and do you know how many offers have made at least $63,000?

Zero.

Nothing is remotely close.

Am I wrong that this?

- Does not comply with the forum's own rules?
- Is a fraudulent screen shot with fabricated income and fabricated product results?
- Even if made up for illustration (which is not disclosed), misrepresents typical results?

What about the forum's use of this testimonial referring to money being made?



.

WOW talk about a plot twist. Are you kidding me??

[Simon Anthony]

Funny thread. A forum about making money online where you can't specify how much you're making online. "Number 1 Forum" no less. Hilarious.

It's 100% clear that FL have no clue what makes IM'ers tick or what they want and need in order to do business. Not only that, FL is actively removing the ability for IM'ers to carry on doing business as usual on Warrior. Good luck with that. It's a lot more business for JVzoo, so they'll be pleased.

But what about WSO claims for stuff like traffic ? Can I still say "Let me show you how I drive 10,000 people to my site per month ?". Is that still allowed, and if so why ? That can also be faked or the screen shots can be lifted from another site quite easily.

Also, what's the difference if the sales copy does not mention how much was made, but inside the product itself it does specify income claims ?

One thing I am looking forward to very much, is seeing some of the copywriting for WSO's soon. I can see the WSO headlines now - "Internet marketing Guru makes a certain sum of money in an unspecified number of days, and it's slightly possible that you can too !".

Some business partnerships just don't mix and never will. FL and Warrior is like your favourite Pub being taken over by the local Christian Society. Atmosphere gone, no fun anymore, restrictions imposed where it once was free and easy. Thanks for the memories, but it's time to find another Pub.

WF needs to be run by IM'ers for IM'ers. Period.

Just my $0.02 cents. Oh sorry. I said "$0.02 cents". Is that allowed ? I can back that claim up if you like !

[Coach Comeback]

Originally Posted by Simon Anthony

One thing I am looking forward to very much, is seeing some of the copywriting for WSO's soon. I can see the WSO headlines now - "Internet marketing Guru makes a certain sum of money in an unspecified number of days, and it's slightly possible that you can too !".

That's just funny right there. I don't care who you are.

It's funny because it is true.

After looking through my dozen+ wso's with a fine toothed comb looking for anything that could be breaking the rules, it is quite the challenge to find the words for a product that is specifically about making money. lol

At least this is entertaining right?

Moral of the story, if you learned how to build a solid buisiness not based on gimmicks... Guys like Simon will be just fine moving somewhere else.

sadly, it looks like that trend has already started








I really do hope these new changes can reverse this trend.

[internetmarketer1]

So, I just saw this thread today, and I made a thread about my salescopy being rejected because of these new rules which I was not aware of until December 30th or so.

I too was very confused about this problem of not making any claims, and with so many of us warriors on here who DO HAVE PROOF not being able to showcase that proof is just shocking to me.

I honestly thought that I was the only one being shocked about this, and so on my thread, everybody was talking about how they won't get scammed anymore, but I mean, countless WSO sellers here like David Mcalorum is literally making this forum countless money because of his short "thread title" that continuously draws attention and sales by bumping it constantly. Not to mention making people and the forum money,

So I was shocked that even the old WSOs like his will have to be changed.

I'm happy knowing that I'm not the only one that was shocked by this.

On the bright side, the one WSO I sold after the new rules has been selling pretty well, but I do feel bad about all of us Warriors who do try to give good products with proof and not get to do it anymore. On the downside, I'll have to edit ALL OF MY WSOs, which I'll have to do within the next two days to "comply" with their new rules.

Again, considering the backfire I kept on getting on my thread about being a scammer and always making income claims, I'm happy that I'm not the only one shocked by these new INSTANT changes to the WSO forum.

The next annoying thing I am scared of is having all WSO viewers become "moderators" and trying to fix every single WSO they see.

[Simon Anthony]

Originally Posted by Coach Comeback

After looking through my dozen+ wso's with a fine toothed comb looking for anything that could be breaking the rules, it is quite the challenge to find the words for a product that is specifically about making money. lol

Be careful with that signature too Coach. They'll be coming after you for that too soon. "$16k in 90 Days !!". Bet you won't be able to have that as your Sig soon. Otherwise it would be double-standards wouldn't it ? And we can't have that.

For me I honestly don't care much. I'm a relative newbie and I did have a WSO planned for a few weeks time. But like you say, I honestly don't care whether I do it here or JVZoo. Makes no real difference to me really. So the decision can be a very easy one.

If you start to take away the ability of IM'ers to make money, you better be well prepared to accept the consequences. Threaten a mans very livelihood and business, then it's likely you who will end up in trouble.

IM'ers are some of the most creative and adaptable people I ever met. They need to be. So I fear for the WF. There are other options out there, and nobody needs to beg WF or FL for anything. They'll simply walk away.

FL and WF needs IM'ers. But IM'ers don't need WF or FL.

Besides, the quality of WF has been going downhill rapidly. Every time I go to the General discussion forum the last months and read the comments, I almost lose the will to live.

Those stats for the decline in traffic are no surprise at all.

[JensSteyaert]

Originally Posted by David Mcalorum

WOW talk about a plot twist. Are you kidding me??

Is any moderator going to address this? Will these fake screenshots be removed by january 12? My Wso was pulled down today because i sent a ticket and i asked how i could make it compliant, so why is this still up now?

Any consistency in policy would be great.

[pensfan6636]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

Many of these guys will leave because they can't figure out a way to not hype things with income claims or guarantees. Free hint before you leave: Check out this sales letter by a well known and respected guru. I don't see any income claims or guarantees: http://www.ipremiumproducts.com/

Actually, there is an income claim 2015-01-10_2022 - pensfan6636's library

If it insinuates, then its a claim.

Also, not all sellers who use income claims are using it as hype. A lot of sellers have legit income claims, that the buyer can acheive. Also, something that isnt mentioned is the COUNTLESS amount of buyers who buy something and take ZERO action and give hardly any effort, then complain and ask for a refund and then whine that it didnt work... the income claims were hype... they were false... etc etc etc.

I can guess there are a lot of buyers who are happy with this rule probably fall in that category. Not all, but i am sure there a lot.

And I agree that probably 8 out fo 10 buyers WANT to see income claims. They want to know 1) Is the seller actually making money themselves 2) How much are they making) 3) Has their customers made anything from this... etc...

I see that a lot of people speaking out against this actually have legit income claims and use them the right way... now they are getting punished. But it only hurts the the forum and FL, so they will have to deal with it. Sellers can find alternatives to selling their products or making money, but if sales drop drastically... FL just has to bite the bullet.

No income claims = less sellers = less buyers = fail.

[Coach Comeback]

Originally Posted by Simon Anthony

Be careful with that signature too Coach. They'll be coming after you for that too soon. "$16k in 90 Days !!". Bet you won't be able to have that as your Sig soon. Otherwise it would be double-standards wouldn't it ? And we can't have that.

Yup! I am well aware that my sig WOULD be breaking a wso rule. But as I understand it for now, this only applies to wso's.

The thing is... I teach people how to make money online. There is no dressing that up. No better way to say it.

When a client comes to me, whether it is to learn how to drive traffic, build a list or successfully create and launch a product, the end goal is always the same, implied or stated: MAKE MORE MONEY!

Again, all the more reason I am watching this debate. To see if it is worth rewriting all my sales letters (as you know, copywriting is an art ... and EXTREMELY time consuming), or adjust as stated above and take my already converting sales pages and move them somewhere else as is?

Can't change what I teach. Income claims or not. People hire me with the assumption that doing so will make them more money. That is not a claim... IT IS MY JOB!

[internetmarketer1]

Originally Posted by pensfan6636

Actually, there is an income claim 2015-01-10_2022 - pensfan6636's library

If it insinuates, then its a claim.

Also, not all sellers who use income claims are using it as hype. A lot of sellers have legit income claims, that the buyer can acheive. Also, something that isnt mentioned is the COUNTLESS amount of buyers who buy something and take ZERO action and give hardly any effort, then complain and ask for a refund and then whine that it didnt work... the income claims were hype... they were false... etc etc etc.

I can guess there are a lot of buyers who are happy with this rule probably fall in that category. Not all, but i am sure there a lot.

And I agree that probably 8 out fo 10 buyers WANT to see income claims. They want to know 1) Is the seller actually making money themselves 2) How much are they making) 3) Has their customers made anything from this... etc...

I see that a lot of people speaking out against this actually have legit income claims and use them the right way... now they are getting punished. But it only hurts the the forum and FL, so they will have to deal with it. Sellers can find alternatives to selling their products or making money, but if sales drop drastically... FL just has to bite the bullet.

No income claims = less sellers = less buyers = fail.

Exactly. They seem to think about all the buyers but they have begun to forget about all the sellers.

You're right about all the people who complain saying that a WSO is lying because it "didn't work for them." when clearly they just were too lazy to put in the time to make it work. I understand that a lot of people do have reasons behind their need to refund, but what about the serial refunders.

One guy I know ADMITTED IT on my thread saying, "Yes,I am a serial refunder, and I'll continue asking for refunds to all of the guys who offer 100% money back guarantees."

[David Mcalorum]

Just the fact that they have TWENTY FOUR rules for sellers, and only SIX rules for buyers is kinda BS if you ask me. Like sure, I understand that we sellers should have more rules, but 400% more rules? Thats a little bit lop sided dont you think?

Also, its us SELLERS that are the ONLY form of income for the WF.

So maybe, just maybe they should take that into consideration and be more nice to us,
and try to understand US and OUR needs a little bit more.

If not, then the sellers will just leave here and you can (as I said before)
kiss your 2 million dollar investment goodbye.

Really, all you had to do was NOTHING and you would have made all your money
back in two years. Then its all profit from there!

Sure, try to grow the forum, try to make it better.

But this is just ridiculous.

[Mark Singletary]

Actually, according to how I understand the rules that is not an income claim.

In that sales letter it's a comparison of selling a $17 product versus a $97 product and how you'd make more - naturally - just by having a higher priced product.

Nevertheless, take out those two sentences, if they are borderline, and you still have a pretty good sales letter.

Here is what the administrators have said about the income claims:

Here are some examples to clarify what is an income claim:
- Make $100 per day in 7 minutes.
- I made $100 by selling eBooks.
- Earn $100 every time you press this button.
- I made $100 selling a domain.
- Make $100-$15000 per month by buying a website from me.
- Make $5+ in 30 days.

Mark

Originally Posted by pensfan6636

Actually, there is an income claim 2015-01-10_2022 - pensfan6636's library

If it insinuates, then its a claim.

Also, not all sellers who use income claims are using it as hype. A lot of sellers have legit income claims, that the buyer can acheive. Also, something that isnt mentioned is the COUNTLESS amount of buyers who buy something and take ZERO action and give hardly any effort, then complain and ask for a refund and then whine that it didnt work... the income claims were hype... they were false... etc etc etc.

I can guess there are a lot of buyers who are happy with this rule probably fall in that category. Not all, but i am sure there a lot.

And I agree that probably 8 out fo 10 buyers WANT to see income claims. They want to know 1) Is the seller actually making money themselves 2) How much are they making) 3) Has their customers made anything from this... etc...

I see that a lot of people speaking out against this actually have legit income claims and use them the right way... now they are getting punished. But it only hurts the the forum and FL, so they will have to deal with it. Sellers can find alternatives to selling their products or making money, but if sales drop drastically... FL just has to bite the bullet.

No income claims = less sellers = less buyers = fail.

[Kay King]

Just the fact that they have TWENTY FOUR rules for sellers, and only SIX rules for buyers is kinda BS if you ask me. Like sure, I understand that we sellers should have more rules, but 400% more rules? Thats a little bit lop sided dont you think?

No, I don't. I placed a couple dozen newspaper ads recently and as a seller - who was PAYING a good price (more than $20) for each ad...I had to constantly adjust to fit the criteria. It was very nit-picky for me as a seller - but all a buyer had to do was pick up the phone call the number in the ad.

Sellers have more rules because they are USING the WSO section to push their products. Buyers have fewer restrictions because THEY are what fuels that section. Buyers can buy anywhere - not just here.

[David Mcalorum]

Originally Posted by Kay King

No, I don't. I placed a couple dozen newspaper ads recently and as a seller - who was PAYING a good price (more than $20) for each ad...I had to constantly adjust to fit the criteria. It was very nit-picky for me as a seller - but all a buyer had to do was pick up the phone call the number in the ad.

Sellers have more rules because they are USING the WSO section to push their products. Buyers have fewer restrictions because THEY are what fuels that section. Buyers can buy anywhere - not just here.

We are not talking about a newspaper. We are talking about the forum.

So, I disagree. Its actually us SELLERS that fuel that section.
Sure, if there were no buyers, then we wouldn't be there in
the first place.

But if they make the buyers go away, then the sellers will go away.
Or vice versa.

Its just a case of "biting the hand that feeds you" if you ask me.

Additionally; guess what -- ppl PAY monthly for a newspaper
its not just ad revenue that keeps it alive but its a good portion

see how many ppl would pay monthly to be on WF _- LOL YA righttt

[internetmarketer1]

Originally Posted by David Mcalorum

We are not talking about a newspaper. We are talking about the forum.

So, I disagree. Its actually us SELLERS that fuel that section.
Sure, if there were no buyers, then we wouldn't be there in
the first place.

But if they make the buyers go away, then the sellers will go away.
Or vice versa.

Its just a case of "biting the hand that feeds you" if you ask me.

Exactly. It won't be long before a lot of these WSO sellers decide to sell via their own webpages, which most have already gone to doing, and without the bumps made on this forum, they make little to no cash.

Let's face it, the forum does make the most of their cash from bumps, unless they make a lot from another source I know nothing about.

I'm sure the forum has made thousands upon thousands from David Mcalorum alone.

[David Mcalorum]

Originally Posted by internetmarketer1

Exactly. It won't be long before a lot of these WSO sellers decide to sell via their own webpages, which most have already gone to doing, and without the bumps made on this forum, they make little to no cash.

Let's face it, the forum does make the most of their cash from bumps, unless they make a lot from another source I know nothing about.

I'm sure the forum has made thousands upon thousands from David Mcalorum alone.

I'll tell ya, if they dont fix it and fast, I know I sure will.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by David Mcalorum

see how many ppl would pay monthly to be on WF _- LOL YA righttt

Back when the forum was more quality discussion than WSO, a bunch of us paid $60 a month to access a certain part.

Then the $7 WSOs came along and the quality started being something in the past.

The fact that people LOL about whether anyone would make monthly payments just shows how everything has gone south - not just the last few months but the last few years. We were happy to pay that $60 a month. It shows the kinds of sellers that have flocked here and the kind of buyers they are bringing in.

Mark

[JensSteyaert]

Originally Posted by Kay King

No, I don't. I placed a couple dozen newspaper ads recently and as a seller - who was PAYING a good price (more than $20) for each ad...I had to constantly adjust to fit the criteria. It was very nit-picky for me as a seller - but all a buyer had to do was pick up the phone call the number in the ad.

Sellers have more rules because they are USING the WSO section to push their products. Buyers have fewer restrictions because THEY are what fuels that section. Buyers can buy anywhere - not just here.

Then why have so many sellers moved elsewhere?

That doesn't make any sense, they need sellers or the place will die fast, buyers get emails for offers every single day, and it's not from the Wso section anymore...

[Coach Comeback]

Originally Posted by internetmarketer1

Exactly. It won't be long before a lot of these WSO sellers decide to sell via their own webpages, which most have already gone to doing, and without the bumps made on this forum, they make little to no cash.

Let's face it, the forum does make the most of their cash from bumps, unless they make a lot from another source I know nothing about.

I'm sure the forum has made thousands upon thousands from David Mcalorum alone.

I have to agree with this.

I used to spend as much as $100 a day just bumping my threads alone. I always made sure I had at least 2 of my wso's on the font page at all times. We are talking for at least the last 6 months I have been doing this daily.

I have not bumped since I saw the new updates.

I wonder how many others have done the same?

Especially since all the buyers have been having a field day with just seeing how many threads they can report as soon as they made this announcement.

Sad seeing my stuff buried on like page 10

But what can you do right? Unless I rewrite all my sales letters.... it will be $100 a day wasted if they find they are still in violation some how. So yeah, I got some business decision to make.

But for now, I have 100% cut off my use/promotion/bumps/or new products off the forum until the smoke clears

[James Campbell]

Originally Posted by Kay King

I remember seeing that question asked here recently and someone (Alaister?) posted it was a good point and "we will look into it". Nothing more that I've seen.

My computers log me in automatically here but I've also been using other family members' computers here and there so I've seen how persistent that popup is.

Mine logs me in automatically too, but if I look on my phone at all the pop-up comes and is next to impossible to close while on my phone.

[David Mcalorum]

Originally Posted by Coach Comeback

I have to agree with this.

I used to spend as much as $100 a day just bumping my threads alone. I always made sure I had at least 2 of my wso's on the font page at all times. We are talking for at least the last 6 months I have been doing this daily.

I have not bumped since I saw the new updates.

I wonder how many others have done the same?

Especially since all the buyers have been having a field day with just seeing how many threads they can report as soon as they made this announcement.

Sad seeing my stuff buried on like page 10

But what can you do right? Unless I rewrite all my sales letters.... it will be $100 a day wasted if they find they are still in violation some how. So yeah, I got some business decision to make.

But for now, I have 100% cut off my use/promotion/bumps/or new products off the forum until the smoke clears

Bro, I've been bumping daily for the last 5 years lol anywhere from $40 to $120 a day

Since the new updates, I've bumped maybe 3 times in the last week.
And I gotta say, they are also forcing my hand to start to think of other options.

[JensSteyaert]

Originally Posted by David Mcalorum

Bro, I've been bumping daily for the last 5 years lol anywhere from $40 to $120 a day

Since the new updates, I've bumped maybe 3 times in the last week.
And I gotta say, they are also forcing my hand to start to think of other options.

The fact that you and Coach are looking for other options speak for itself about the new policies... I'm sure you guys are not the only one's considering their options, who will they make money off?

What bothers me the most is that no mods are participating in this discussion. It's been pretty silent even when respected Warriors give their honest opinion...

The online world is fast-paced, in the blink of an eye things can change so standing on the sideline waiting it out for a month is not an option, as the comments above prove...

[Paul Myers]

A few thoughts...

First, I suspect the less than optimal choice of wording will be corrected. It seems the intent is to eliminate promises of specific levels of results, not to keep people from suggesting that money can be made.

Keep in mind that corporate processes are slower than many of us are used to. The fact that you don't see replies right away doesn't mean comments are being ignored. It can just as easily mean the people doing the talking from FL are making sure they're clearly stating company policy, including any changes that might be in consideration.

The part about requiring that there be a buy button on the sales page may have a completely benign intent. To ensure that the link doesn't take someone to a page with different terms than were presented for the offer when it was approved.

I've seen that trick. Preventing it is in the interests of the visitors to the section.

A lot of noise is being made about whether FL intends to force things to the WP system. Much of the commentary leads one to think the people saying this believe there's something wrong with that idea.

Freelancer owns the place. If they want to move to WP-only, there is nothing illegal or unethical or unfair about it. And, depending on their vision for the marketplace parts of the forum, that may be exactly the right way to go.

Consider the following possible direction. Purely speculative, but certainly one plausible and potentially powerful scenario.

1. They get rid of all the questionable claims and promises. Without those, the majority of the junk offers go away.

2. Over time, they clean out the previously existing offers that violate the rules. They also get rid of a lot of the black hat and TOS-busting stuff.

3. They add a "Best sellers of the day/week/month" link somewhere prominently in the front page or the top of the WSO section. They include a similar link on every page of the forum outside the other sales section. That and other steps could be taken to increase organic traffic, which will continue to grow on its own if the offers go back to the kind of quality that once existed there.

4. They make listings with Warrior Payments free, and take a percentage of each sale instead. Matt has commented publicly, in response to that suggestion, that he likes the idea.

5. They reach out to sellers of software, graphics, hosting, and various other products and services used by people in the online business market. WP takes a cut, and also arranges for at least some of these sellers to offer affiliate commissions.

Those affiliate deals are easy to research and set up, just like with JV Zoo and WarriorPlus. And, if the overall tenor of the section improves, will be things many people, especially newer affiliates, will want to promote.

The resulting focus is more mainstream and businesslike. While some offers would still be oriented toward newer people to the industry, those would be more sensible. The focus on making big money by pushing a button would go away, and more reliable strategies would take their place.

The rest would be the sort of things serious people would expect in a marketplace oriented toward businesses.

6. This altered focus, once it got traction, would lead to that section becoming a place for established business owners to look to as a first choice. That would make it easier to get more established sellers to advertise there, and the virtuous cycle is established.

As I say, that's purely speculative, and pretty "broad strokes." It's just one route I can see where the current rules make perfect sense, with that one choice of phrasing adjusted.

Where do the sellers who find the new rules objectionable fit into that picture?

They don't. And they may well not fit into whatever long range picture the new management has for the WSO section.

Many of the posts I've read on the new rules have assumed the same narrow view of the future of this forum - that it will continue to serve the same market with the same sellers. That's an unsustainable model for the long term, even ignoring the nature of some of the claims made for current and recent offers.

This model won't appeal to the big launches by currently established players. That said, it would very well work for big launches by more mainstream types, as well as being the basis for launches of more traditional types of products by newer folks to the industry.

The world of marketing online is much broader and deeper than the part of it that has been reflected in the WSO section in the past.

I suspect Freelancer intends to go after a bigger slice of that larger market. In order to do that, some of the offers that have been staples here for a long time would have to go.

Of course, their vision could look nothing like the one I just painted. The example is just to show that we can't possibly be sure that what they're doing isn't exactly the right thing to do without knowing their desired end result.

Other affiliate networks have been nibbling away at the WSO section's traffic and revenue for years. Facebook groups and private forums and Skype groups have supplanted some of the focused discussions here for many experienced people. A new model is needed.

Any new model will have to clean out the claims and promises that, honest or not, look suspicious to the kinds of sellers that would be required to make it work in anything but the very short term.


Paul

[James Campbell]

I know some people want to have their head in the sand about this fact, but the power sellers are the ones who are the reason for the massive increase in traffic between 2009 to approx 2012 before many jumped ship to launch off forum. This was fueled by affiliate promotions and those of us with massive lists sending our subscribers to the forum, specifically the WSO section.

Now some of you will remember "the good ol' days" when people paid monthly to be part of the forum, when the "discussion" sections were actually the fuel (and were actually useful overall), when it wasn't all about the money, etc... well those times are over and they have been for a VERY long time.

All of the traffic stats, the fact that there are very few 1000+ unit product launches done on the forum, the fact that the WSO section has crawled to a relative halt compared to 2009-2012, etc... All of that indicates that the forum has been pushed in the wrong direction and FL has just accelerated that crash course.

As mentioned in a previous comment, there are plenty of great sellers and plenty of crappy sellers on this forum, but the truth is (let us be brutally honest with ourselves here): there are plenty of crappy buyers on this forum who sit there an chastise sellers for having funnels/OTOs/using common and general online marketing techniques. Some of them literally post in dozens of WSO threads a day all with the same crap: "Are there any OTOs, how much are they, are they required for the main product to work, you should make this all clear upfront and since you haven't and if you don't then you're just a scammer/scum marketer" (cearly some of that was paraphrased).

People posting on WSO threads should be reigned in just as much as some sellers should be reigned in. Combining those two (worst kind of buyer and worst kind of seller) has pretty much ruined the WSO section since pre-FL.

Many massive sellers moved off forum because they got sick of dealing with trolls who actively violated WSO posting rules while some would have to fight with mods to get the posts removed. That is when the super-seller exodus started and that is when the traffic highway directly to the WSO section dropped down to a trickle.

Here's the thing. I love marketing, I love online business, I love constantly learning about it and being around it. It is not only what I do, but it is one of the things I'm most passionate about. I have loads of courses, plugins, scripts, physical books all based around skills and/or techniques that will benefit my business. Are all of them great? No. Does that mean they are a scam? No. Is it my responsibility to make the decision to purchase or not purchase? Yes.

As a buyer I take full responsibility for my purchase decisions. I read through copy carefully, I look at what is available to me in order to find out the reputation of the seller and/or the reputation of their previous products, I look at the claims and I ask myself if this can immediately help me improve my business or marketing skills in some way.

If I still manage to buy something that is clearly misrepresented, I do my best to get a refund. I don't run around getting angry with other sellers for the sins of that seller. I don't run around demanding that they tell me every detail of their product funnel before purchase, why? Because I'm an adult who can make my own decisions to purchase/not purchase when presented with an offer. If you can't do that, then you really shouldn't be in charge of your own finances.

Sellers have a responsibility to represent their courses/software/plugins/services accurately. To do so income proof and/or claims may be necessary as this is a marketing/mmo forum and you can't have mmo without telling people or implying that people will possibly make some money for their business if they follow/use your course/software/service/plugin.

Buyers have to be responsible for their own purchasing, refunding and posting habits within the WSO section. There is a reason JVZoo has a feature that can ban you from the whole marketplace if you refund too many times or are a problem customer. You're not worth dealing with for business owners. You clearly are either trying to get something for free and/or don't know how to responsibly make purchasing decisions. Getting mad that OTOs exist on the back of an offer simply tells me that you don't have the capacity to make decisions to buy/not buy when presented with them. If you feel an offer doesn't give you enough information to make the decision to purchase, then don't purchase, simple as that. Also, getting angry with marketing on a marketing forum is like getting angry that horses exist on a ranch.

There are many people on this forum that I've advised to NEVER buy from me or from any affiliate promotions I may do as I do not want the as a customer. They are not a right fit, for the reasons above. These trolls are a big reason why many of the people I am great friends with stopped selling on the forum. It just wasn't worth the headache for a $9 customer who would then file a paypal dispute after not even trying the technique or even downloading the product, losing the dispute and then filing a chargeback for $9. Then after all that, going into the thread and acting like a jackass for literally no other reason than they are a problem customer.

I realize to some people who are not sellers/never have been sellers that this sounds like a fictional scenario, but it happened and continues to happen whether you want to believe it or not.

FL has royally screwed up certain aspects of this place, they have acted with an arrogant shoot first/fix later attitude that is clearly ignoring the various nuances/dynamics of this community. For those reasons, either they decide to get their heads out of their... well you get the picture... or the forum will continue into a death spiral and eventually be a ghost of what it once was or could have grown to be.

Personally it makes me pretty sad to see all of this happening. This forum was my second introduction to online marketing and having an online business. My first was the late great Cory Rudl. Both have played a big roll in helping me learn skills and techniques that have helped my business not just grow but flourish.

[ForumGuru]

Originally Posted by TempRyanJericho

My WSO Was then shutdown, for including a bonus theme. Which a few customers complained that I did not have the licence to distribute with the WSO. I actually purchased an extended licence for the theme in 2012 - Unfortunatley I had no payment proof of this, due to it being quite a while back and the seller is denying it.

Hello,

I was following the thread you are talking about, in-fact I was interested in the product until I read the thread.

#1 You can't redistribute an entire unmodified bare theme under an extended license.

#2 According to the seller you didn't have an extended license anyway.

proof the seller of the theme is incompetent.

The seller is an actually a highly rated seller.

They then, the Warriorforum, Closed my warrior forum account about 2 months back. Claiming that a customer had just complained, and his refund was not ressolved within a decent time frame. I was thinking, the hell? This is MONTHS Since my WSO was closed down, and now your banning me for not refunding a buyer that was out of my 30 day refund policy?

Looking at the thread it appears as if you had a lot of questions and complaints that went unanswered prior to be you being banned. Not only that...you were giving away a theme that you couldn't prove you had the rights to give it away, in-fact you couldn't even prove you purchased the theme.

The bottom line is this --> if you purchase a theme for almost $3000 you should have a receipt, especially if you plan on redistributing it to your customers in any form. If you can't find the receipt then you should be able to obtain another copy from ThemeForest.

You MUST have proof of purchase and proper rights to redistribute like you were, and if you didn't have that you have opened up everyone that you passed the theme along to a potential problem. You can't prove you had any sort of resale rights to that theme, so all of your customers are/were stuck using an unlicensed theme that they thought they had a license to use.

Alaister did what thought he had to do to protect the consumer and the community, and I believe he has done what is needed.

Cheers

-don

[Paul Myers]

James,

Some of what you describe is true. Some of it is stories made up by people who had an axe to grind.

There were two big changes that increased traffic here. The first was in late 2008 or early 2009, when the SEO functions of the way Allen had the forum set up started kicking it up the SERPs.

The other was the creation of WarriorPlus and the introduction of affiliate programs to the forum. That had, overall, a negative effect on any offers in the WSO section that weren't promoted by affiliates, because even the organic visitors looked at the page view numbers and went to those first.

The cynical buyers weren't something that happened in a vacuum. They were created and trained by people making outrageous promises, with too many of those ending up being shown to be false, or at least very unlikely for most customers.

There have been plenty of trolls in that section, too. When they got reported, they were dealt with. I know, as I dealt with a lot of them. That said, a lot of the sellers who scream the loudest about the mods ignoring trolls never reported them. The ones I've seen who claimed they had to fight with mods and couldn't get things removed were trying to manipulate threads unfairly.

For example, there were plenty of sellers who thought insisting someone never bought the product would get a negative review automatically removed. In most cases, the person posting the review provided a valid receipt when asked. How seriously do you think we took reports from those sellers in the future?

Then there were the ones who claimed ANY refund request came from a serial refunder. They used that claim without evidence, and tried to justify refusing to honor their posted policies. You can imagine how well that went over with the mods...

Some sellers simply asserted that they had the right to get anything removed any time they wanted it done. The fact that the rules specifically said otherwise didn't stop them from claiming that the mods unfairly ignored "reports."

I've seen many of those claims. Some of them are differences of interpretation, and that's fair. Some of the loudest ones are, shall we say, "less than accurate depictions."

I've seen plenty of buyers lie, too. No-one will deny it happens. That happens everywhere in this market. That said, the overall refund rate for offers here is pretty low. Much smaller than, say, the same offers made through Clickbank.


Paul

[James Campbell]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

James,

Some of what you describe is true. Some of it is stories made up by people who had an axe to grind.

I can tell you that 100% of what I said in regards to sellers I am referring to is true. I know the idiots you're alluding to about the axe to grind, absolutely, but I am not referring to them.

You and I have had our butting heads moments over the years, but I wouldn't be putting this out there if it wasn't 100% true, straight from the horses mouth and seeing it with my own two eyes.

So, no it isn't "some" of it that is true. It is all of what I said that is true.

[Paul Myers]

James,

Fair enough. I don't mean to suggest you're lying. Just pointing out that there are many examples that don't at all fit what you described.

And I have never seen a real case of a serious troll post not being removed from a WSO thread when it's reported. Some edge cases, yes, but the noise made along those lines is totally out of scale to those cases.


Paul

[James Campbell]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

The cynical buyers weren't something that happened in a vacuum. They were created and trained by people making outrageous promises, with too many of those ending up being shown to be false, or at least very unlikely for most customers.

I never implied or said it was created in a vacuum. You'll notice that I freely acknowledge that there are crappy sellers. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't incorrectly position my statements as implying they are all-or-nothing stances when I made it very clear that they are not.

There are crappy sellers. There are crappy buyers. Both need to be reigned in and should have been before FL and now after FL has taken over.

SEO traffic did help the WF, but aff traffic took it to the next level with warriorplus, to a small extent digiresults, and then JVZoo. Now with most of that bigger aff traffic gone, the forum has taken a huge hit traffic wise.

As for your other post about the possibly scenario....sweet goodness that is a scary scenario for a forum that is about marketing and making money online. Nothing but software/plugin/service sellers. Might as well turn this place into codecanyon+freelancer. It will bring the traffic levels of this forum as a marketing/mmo forum to a virtual standstill when compared to what it once was.

[James Campbell]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

the overall refund rate for offers here is pretty low. Much smaller than, say, the same offers made through Clickbank.

Amen to that.

[ForumGuru]

Originally Posted by TempRyanJericho

If you care to read my entire post, I stated that I did purchase the Extended licence, which allows for redistributing. But, as this is 2/3 years back, and I never kept records, Thus cannot provide it, So I removed it from the course after complaint (Ive never been questioned before in depth, of to my licences etc) . As said though, It never impacted the course what so ever. It was simply a bonus, I thought I was providing more help and value by providing.

I read your entire post and you can't prove you purchased it, the seller says you did not purchase it, evidently you are unable to obtain proof of purchase through the seller, ThemeForest or anywhere else, so you had absolutely no business passing along a theme that you can't prove you purchased or have the rights to redistribute.

That's just crazy! You don't keep records for tax purposes on a $3000 theme? You can't provide your purchase instrument? You can't find your ThemeForest account? You don't think you need proof of license to redistribute? You don't keep records?

Apparently you don't care a whole lot about your customers, and that's fairly evident to anyone that looks at the way you serviced your sales thread.

The seller says you did not purchase an extended license and I believe him. IMO you have no business selling on this forum if you are caught redistributing a theme that you don't have a license to redistribute, and you can't prove you purchased.

Once an extended license is purchased you must follow these and other terms:

#3 An End Product is one of the following things, both requiring an application of skill and effort.

(a) For an Item that is a template, the End Product is a customised implementation of the Item.

For example, the item is a magazine template and the end product is the finished magazine.

#8 You can’t re-distribute the Item as stock, in a tool or template, or with source files. You can’t do this with an Item either on its own or bundled with other items, and even if you modify the Item. You can’t re-distribute or make available the Item as-is or with superficial modifications.

#10 You must not permit an end user of the End Product to extract the Item and use it separately from the End Product.

But who cares about the terms of the license when you can't even prove you have a license! IMO it's unthinkable that you would be distributing a theme that you can't prove you purchased, or prove you had a proper license to redistribute.

Cheers

-don

[James Campbell]

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

The seller says you did not purchase an extended license and I believe him

What you believe is irrelevant without actually having any idea what the facts are.

Originally Posted by TempRyanJericho

I have NEVER Been asked to provide such documentation for any WSO I have ever listed. This was just a BONUS in a WSO. That was removed promptly.

Im happy to admit a mistake, that I did not include my receipt? I guess.

So does that warrant me banned for life, affiliate coms fraudulently taken, War room membership taken etc? I think not.

I understand you were done dirty in regards to the ban/aff commisons/wr membership, that sucks and if a "lifetime" membership is ever sold it should either be honoured or refunded. Period.

Either way, this thread is more about the rules and less about how the powers that be at this forum get it completely wrong with bans sometimes. There are plenty of stories around the internet about bans from this forum, you aren't the first and aren't the last.

Sorry it happened to you. Please help us stay more on topic here.

sidenote: screen captured your post as I'm pretty sure it will get removed at some point

[ForumGuru]

@ Ryan

The problem is you say you purchased a $2900 theme, and the vendor says you didn't, and that's where the receipt comes into play. Without proof of purchase and a proper license none of your customers are licensed.

The vendor called it piracy and sellers here are not allowed to pass on pirated material and that makes proof of purchase imperative. I am not sure how promptly the theme was removed from your WSO, for a while you were claiming that you had an extended license and the case was closed as far as you were concerned.

You left your customers open to some liability, and as you can see, even if you did have a license the theme was not supposed to be redistributed like you were doing.

You were charging good money for your WSO and customers should not be receiving a theme that nobody can prove was properly licensed. This is precisely some of the stuff that Warrior Forum needs to keep cleaned up to protect the community at large.

Cheers

-don

[ForumGuru]

Originally Posted by James Campbell

What you believe is irrelevant without actually having any idea what the facts are.

Hi James,

I know exactly what the facts are, I did my due diligence when I was considering purchasing that WSO and contacted ThemeForest (Envato) and the theme author directly. I was told Ryan did not purchase an extended license and that no extended licenses had been sold as of the time of my contact. I also asked Ryan for proof of purchase on the thread and he could not provide it. The extended license terms are public for all to read if he had actualy purchased an extended license.

Furthermore, I had followed the entire thread and saw the note an admin posted on the thread after one of the bans. On top of that I talked with Alaister in detail regarding this situation at the time

It's not what I believe, it's what I know.

Cheers

-don

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

.
A lot of noise is being made about whether FL intends to force things to the WP system. Much of the commentary leads one to think the people saying this believe there's something wrong with that idea.

That would be entirely justified since the nature of the "noise" was not at all positive. I hope your speculations is off though. I would have my questions about FL if they bought WF to completely change it and i think it highly implausible warrior forums would ever be the first choice of established businesses

I'd wonder about their decision processes because it would involve changing almost entirely their customer base and it would be more sensible to build their own forum and brand it with a better name for business than buy an MMO based forum and turn it into something else entirely.

[David Mcalorum]

Originally Posted by James Campbell

Either way, this thread is more about the rules and less about how the powers that be at this forum get it completely wrong with bans sometimes. There are plenty of stories around the internet about bans from this forum, you aren't the first and aren't the last.

Sorry it happened to you. Please help us stay more on topic here.

sidenote: screen captured your post as I'm pretty sure it will get removed at some point

Yes. please read the thread title. We are talking about the new rules of the forum, not about members getting banned for whatever reason.

I too would like us to stay on topic here, as the stakes for ALL of us, Buyers/ Sellers and Owners are quite high. So, lets keep it relevant.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Coach Comeback

Again, all the more reason I am watching this debate. To see if it is worth rewriting all my sales letters (as you know, copywriting is an art ... and EXTREMELY time consuming), or adjust as stated above and take my already converting sales pages and move them somewhere else as is?

Both? I'd be surprised if the earlier examples you cited of sales copy are going to be let in on any change of rules . Allowing actual claims of dollar amount in fixed days wouldn't be a change. It would be total cave in.

The only thing I would point out is that saying "which copy would you buy from?" (assuming right now) might not entirely be an accurate way of assessing it. Over time warrior forum specific traffic is going to become use to not seeing those claims since everyone has to abide. The traffic that comes from the community itself is going to become used to not seeing that kind of claim. So I guess the question is are they still worth selling to? I know some people are saying the buying traffic will go away but some at the same time some are saying everything is for the buyer and if so then why would they vanish? Time will tell but readjustment of expectation by buyers might themselves change and you find its still productive even without the income claims (assuming I am right that the word "imply" is being used the way I think it is).

Quality of discussion for the rest of the forum might become even more important to that traffic picking up or at least staying the same.

[ForumGuru]

Originally Posted by David Mcalorum

I too would like us to stay on topic here, as the stakes for ALL of us, Buyers/ Sellers and Owners are quite high. So, lets keep it relevant.

Right.

To voice my opinion on some of the new rules:

#1 As a buyer I like the idea of no unverified income claims on threads.
#2 As a seller I like the idea of no unverified income claims on threads.
#3 I love the idea of free WSOs being moved out of the WSO section.
#5 I love the idea that all WSOs must have a buy button leading to a payment processor.
#6 I believe folks should be able to ask pre-sale questions and buyers should be able to leave reviews on the thread.
#7 I have always supported the requirement that an offer must be "special" or "exclusive" to the Warrior Forum.
#8 I have always supported the policy of banning scammers and vendors that do not honor their claims or are selling pirated products.

I used to purchase a a ton of WSOs, but now I barely wade into those the waters because the forum is cluttered with so many make XXXXXX in YYY days threads. I just don't have the time to shop for decent software, cool plugins, or nice graphics packs in that section in it's current state.

As a seller I stopped regularly bumping shortly after seeing the forum become extra-flooded with $20 WSOs and tons of free WSOs, many of which seemed to provide little value. I decided my marketing money could probably be spent better elsewhere. I also decided that I would take my launches off-forum if something didn't change. In-fact I posted several times in support of putting the fees back at $40 to post, $40 to bump, and reinstating the War Room requirement to list a WSO.

Months ago Alaister admitted the WSO section quality had slipped, as it was being diluted by taking away the requirement of a War Room membership to post a WSO, and lowering the price to $20 which led to a large amount of low quality WSOs and free WSOs being posted. He vowed to clean up the section and I am very happy to see he is doing just that.

I applaud Alaister and his team for some of the changes they are making.

Cheers

-don

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by James Campbell

.
These trolls are a big reason why many of the people I am great friends with stopped selling on the forum. It just wasn't worth the headache for a $9 customer who would then file a paypal dispute after not even trying the technique or even downloading the product, losing the dispute and then filing a chargeback for $9. Then after all that, going into the thread and acting like a jackass for literally no other reason than they are a problem customer.

Jezaloo we disagreed before but when you have a point you have a point. Its another one of the reasons I have not run a WSO in along long time. I don't know how sellers put up with some of the junk I see.

However there are somethings being suggested like only buyers can leave reviews and if a refund policy doesn't exist refunds shouldn't be expected that should help in some areas.

What i would ask is - doesn't some kind of offers bait the hook for PRECISELY those kind of customers??? I mean the normal mature person with money to spend that I know does not expect to make a few thousand dollars with no hard work and in a short period of time. They generally have to work for what they already have . Doesn't some income claims act like sugar to flies and lead directly to those headaches???? In my own line outside of WSOs the brokest and cheapest customers always expect the most and want refunds far faster and make far more complaints.

Honestly??? a high percentage of them were from WF. So wouldn't it be a good thing for sellers to cut that mentality down a bit?

[David Mcalorum]

Personally, I have no idea why they moved free offers to the classified section.
In my book, the buyers are unaware that that move is being made, (and as a classified
seller I can tell you that section has less traction than the main WSO section)
So, free offers in that section will get less leads (IMO) than if they were in the main
WSO section. Personally, I think thats a bad move. Again, less business in the long
term for the WF as people will eventually see that they dont get as much results
in the classified section as they once did with the same offers in the WSO section.

And yes, totally ban the peeps that don't back up their claims.

And yet, besides all of this the WF admin still have "allegedly" FALSIFIED income claims on their own payment platform that they are pushing everyone into.

Is that right? Hell no.

Is it "hypocritical" .. yes. Absolutely.
What kind of example does that give?
Not a very good one at all.

I would really really like to see this addressed.

I'm totally okay with using warrior payments in the future and
having verified income via WP to use in the future in my copy titles,
headlines, and so forth.

But as it stands, it just seems that the implementation of all these rules
have been poorly managed, explained and executed.

As James said, it more so seems like a "shoot first, ask question later" policy
which can do more damage than good.

I just think that they need to do damage control big time.
Again "if its not broke, don't fix it" seems to ring true here.